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Speaker 1: Good team. It's the bloody project. That's you, Tiffany and

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Speaker 1: Cook over there in the fancy ritchy area of Melbourne

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Speaker 1: that she lives in Glaspow up there in the bloody

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Speaker 1: jungle in Queensland. Will start with the smart one. Good I, tiff.

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Speaker 2: Good I.

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Speaker 1: We'll go to the beautiful one next. How are you?

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Speaker 1: How's your day been?

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Speaker 2: I've been fabulous? Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Well you should thank me because I just finished twenty

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Speaker 1: minutes ago training you and your gorilla boyfriend. You're the

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Speaker 1: andethal boyfriend who can cook chock brown in like world

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Speaker 1: class apparently. Yeah, oh well, good for you, doctor Gillespie.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Fourteen days later, here we are,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Good good? Yeah, it's been a yeah follo out.

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Speaker 3: Fourteen days for me actually feels like several months.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I thought you tried to avoid work as much

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Speaker 1: as possible. How dare you? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well, the new book's coming out twenty eighth of April,

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Speaker 3: and so there's a bit of stuff that has to

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Speaker 3: happen ahead of that, including producing the actual book.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Well, because you're you're the world's worst at

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Speaker 1: fucking self promotion. If I managed you were, if I

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Speaker 1: was your agent or any I'd be like, dude, do better,

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Speaker 1: so give us, give us without doing anything sales. You

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Speaker 1: just tell us about what you can about the book.

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Speaker 3: Uh yeah, I'd rather than at the moment.

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Speaker 1: That's a terrible start my case.

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Speaker 3: It's called the Attention Recovery Plan, right, and it is.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of stuff written about, including by me,

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Speaker 3: about the damage that devices and addictions are doing to us.

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Speaker 3: So you know, the social media gaming, all that kind

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Speaker 3: of thing, and I've written a lot about that and

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Speaker 3: made it really really clear that the biochemistry tells us

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Speaker 3: that this is no different to substance abuse, and it's

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Speaker 3: having the same consequences, which is severe addiction, anxiety, depression, psychosis, schizophrenia.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we're going to hell in a handbasket

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Speaker 3: as a society because the rates of those things are

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Speaker 3: increasing incredibly quickly because we're addicting everybody. And so I've

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Speaker 3: written about that before. We've spoken about it before, I've

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Speaker 3: written books about it. The most recent time was a

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Speaker 3: book I wrote called Brain Reset a few years ago.

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Speaker 3: This is about Okay, that's brilliant, thanks for scaring me

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Speaker 3: to death. What do you do about it? And the

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Speaker 3: answer can't be well, chuck your phone in the bin,

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Speaker 3: because if it were that easy, it wouldn't be an addiction.

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Speaker 3: So that's not what this book's about. This book's about

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Speaker 3: how do you intentionally recover your attention? How do you

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Speaker 3: intentionally recover your focus? How do you, I guess, for

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Speaker 3: want of a better term, go through a focused workout

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Speaker 3: to make sure you can still do it and you

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Speaker 3: can still apply your mind. And how do you combat

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Speaker 3: the inevitable disease wave that comes with addiction, the anxiety,

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Speaker 3: the oppression, the ADHD, all of those things. So this

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Speaker 3: is an intensely practical book about what do you do?

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Speaker 3: So there's a little bit of science in there, some

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Speaker 3: of it you're recognize from things that we've discussed over

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Speaker 3: the years, but it's mostly about what do you do

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Speaker 3: about it? And there's a lot of step by step

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Speaker 3: guide's a lot of planning exactly what to do, how

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Speaker 3: to organize your workspace, how to organize your personal life,

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Speaker 3: all of those sorts of things to ensure that you

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Speaker 3: maintain focus, fitness.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's good. And the fact that it it's outlining

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Speaker 1: the problem but really talking about and presenting a solution.

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Speaker 1: I love and it is. It is interesting when you

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Speaker 1: think that, like whether it's booze or whether it's gambling,

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Speaker 1: or whether it's drugs, or whether it's pawn or whether

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Speaker 1: it's foo, it's I mean, it's the addiction is kind

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Speaker 1: of the same in a way. It's just a different

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Speaker 1: pathway to a similar addiction, right.

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Speaker 3: It's exactly the same. From a biochemical perspective. Your brain

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Speaker 3: can't tell the difference between a gambling addiction, a gaming addiction,

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Speaker 3: a social media addiction, or an addiction to heroin. It

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Speaker 3: can't tell the difference from a biochemical perspective, They're all

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Speaker 3: exactly the same.

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Speaker 1: And without giving away anything, you can't, so feel free

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Speaker 1: to not answer it. Did you where did you? Did

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Speaker 1: you talk to people who had overcome this addiction? Did

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Speaker 1: you talk to addiction specialists? Did you read a million

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Speaker 1: papers as you do? From where? Did you kind of

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Speaker 1: create or formulate your suggestions or your kind of recovery models.

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Speaker 3: It's a combination of a few of those things. The

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Speaker 3: book has a lot of stories from you know, anonymised obviously,

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Speaker 3: but a lot of real world stories from people who've

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Speaker 3: struggled with these things. You know, things like dating app addictions,

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Speaker 3: gaming addictions, gambling addictions, and so on, and real life

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Speaker 3: stories of that. And the reason for putting those in is,

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Speaker 3: rather than me just banging on about all this is bad,

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Speaker 3: I want people to be able to read the story

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Speaker 3: of a person and identify them, see themselves in the story,

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Speaker 3: see something that they're doing, because one of the difficulties

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Speaker 3: with addiction is it usually comes with an enormous moral judgment.

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Speaker 3: As this there's this general sense that if you're an addict,

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Speaker 3: it's because you're weak or you're in some other way faulty,

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Speaker 3: and you just need to get your act together and

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Speaker 3: we can't help it. It's just it's ingrained in the

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Speaker 3: way we operate as humans. You know, if you see

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Speaker 3: someone addicted to pornography, it's because they've got something wrong

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Speaker 3: with them, or you see someone addicted to gambling, they're

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Speaker 3: weak in some way. But that's not what's going on.

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Speaker 3: What's going on is a very intentional perversion of some

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Speaker 3: biochemistry in the human brain by people who are doing

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Speaker 3: it to make money. And we need to not lose

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Speaker 3: sight of that that this is a business model we're

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Speaker 3: talking about here, and this book is about fighting that

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Speaker 3: business model and keeping your own brain to get us.

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Speaker 1: And I guess the reality is, as much as we

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear this, if we put aside morality

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Speaker 1: in all of that, just for this hypothetical, it's in

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Speaker 1: the interest of a lot of these companies and apps

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Speaker 1: and all of that to get people addicted because it's

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Speaker 1: financially rewarding.

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Speaker 3: Well, we've said this before. You know, when the product

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Speaker 3: is free, you are the product. And that's what's going

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Speaker 3: on in when people are selling addiction. It's the point here, say,

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Speaker 3: for whether it's a playing games or gambling or on

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Speaker 3: social media, it costs billions of dollars to develop, maintain,

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Speaker 3: and run something like Facebook or Instagram, and what does

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Speaker 3: it cost you to do it? Nothing? Not a sense.

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Speaker 3: That just doesn't make sense as a business model. That's

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Speaker 3: totally insane. And that's because that's not the business model.

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Speaker 3: The business model is capturing seconds of attention, yes, or

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Speaker 3: engagement as it's often called, and then reselling that to

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Speaker 3: the highest bidder, and the best way to do that

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Speaker 3: is to addict people.

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Speaker 1: We talk about it a fair bit, but it feels

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Speaker 1: to me like everyone kind of like what we've well,

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Speaker 1: some of what you've said so far will be revelatory

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Speaker 1: to some of it will bit like, oh wow, I

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Speaker 1: didn't really think about it. But I think most of

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Speaker 1: us kind of know that there's a problem around social

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Speaker 1: media and the like. But I also feel like while

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Speaker 1: we we kind of get intellectually that it's a potential

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Speaker 1: threat for some people in some ways, if not all

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Speaker 1: of us, we don't hold it in the same regard

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Speaker 1: as booze or heroine or gambling or some of the

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Speaker 1: I guess the addictions that we would call life destroying

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Speaker 1: or destructive, but it seems like which it isn't, but

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Speaker 1: it can almost seem like, oh yeah, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: an addiction, but it's not one of them, the danger ones.

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Speaker 3: There's two aspects to addiction, which people often mix up

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Speaker 3: because when you talk about let's say a substance addiction

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Speaker 3: or you know, things like her and cocaine, etc. People

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Speaker 3: talk about the symptoms of that and the badness associated

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Speaker 3: with that, and what they're actually talking about is the

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Speaker 3: side effects. So in order to produce the dopamine spike

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Speaker 3: and create the addiction, those things come with side effects

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Speaker 3: because they're drugs, and a lot of those side effects

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Speaker 3: are what people associate with addiction, but that isn't addiction.

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Speaker 3: Addiction is the dopamine spike that's produced in the first place,

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Speaker 3: and the damage done by that is not from the

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Speaker 3: side effects, or it's not the primary damage from the

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Speaker 3: side effects. If you didn't think about something like gambling,

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Speaker 3: there's no real side effect from gambling in the same

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Speaker 3: sense of substance abuse, but no one would fight with

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Speaker 3: you over the notion that it's very definitely an addiction.

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Speaker 3: What's going on there is that dover meanspike is being

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Speaker 3: produced by behavior, which is gambling, and that dover meanspike

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Speaker 3: is having the consequence that you become anxious and depressed,

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Speaker 3: that you create chaos in your life by running out

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Speaker 3: of money, and that in turn makes it even worse.

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Speaker 3: So that's a pure form of what happens in addiction.

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Speaker 3: And when people wave away things like Instagram or dating

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Speaker 3: apps or gaming and say, well, that's not the same thing,

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Speaker 3: they're mixing the two up. Yes, there are no instant

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Speaker 3: downside side effects from substance consumption, but the effect on

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Speaker 3: the brain is identical, which is why we're seeing anxiety

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Speaker 3: rates in teenagers go through the roof. It's why We're

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Speaker 3: seeing depression go through the roof. It's why schizophrenia is

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Speaker 3: that epidemic proportions, It's why suicide is going crazy. It's

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Speaker 3: because these are the flow on effects of addiction. So

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Speaker 3: people waving away something because it doesn't have a substance

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Speaker 3: abuse side effect doesn't make it any less addiction.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny. I've even with adults, and maybe for me,

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Speaker 1: it's almost like this is like the impact of if

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Speaker 1: we had an impact scale of these things that went

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Speaker 1: from zero to ten, and we go, well, ten is complete.

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Speaker 1: It's hijacked your life in your brain and you really

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Speaker 1: need you really need help, and then write down to

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Speaker 1: almost like disordered eating through to an eating disorder. So

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, the level of impact kind of

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Speaker 1: grows without us even realizing. But it still comes down

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Speaker 1: to like our awareness around it now, willingness to acknowledge it.

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Speaker 1: But I was having a chat yesterday with a made

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Speaker 1: of mine who's fifty five. Was something he's got grandkids

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Speaker 1: and his kid, his son took his iPhone off his

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Speaker 1: well I don't know, nine year old or ten year

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Speaker 1: old for a week, and the kid lost his shit.

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Speaker 1: I mean he and he was there when that, like

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Speaker 1: he happened to be there and I don't know what

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Speaker 1: the kid did, but the consequence of what he did

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Speaker 1: was no phone for a week. Well you think you

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Speaker 1: would think, he said to me, it's like they fucking

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Speaker 1: chopped his leg off.

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Speaker 3: Or it's like any other addict when you take away

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Speaker 3: the thing that they're addicted to. M that's what's going

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Speaker 3: on here. And people will often say to me when

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Speaker 3: I talk like this, they'll say, yeah, but I'm not,

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Speaker 3: as you know, I don't really have addiction. Sure, I

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Speaker 3: don't mind a bit of gaming or a bit of

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Speaker 3: gambling or you know, get on the social media or someone,

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Speaker 3: but I'm not. I'm not addicted. You know, there's no

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Speaker 3: problems there. And often I'll say to them, well, sure, well,

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Speaker 3: there's an easy way to put through that, you know,

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Speaker 3: just to lete the apps, and they go, sure, easy,

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Speaker 3: do it tomorrow, and they will, knowing in the back

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Speaker 3: of their mind that they can reinstall them anytime they want.

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Speaker 3: But if I say to them, well, just delete the

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Speaker 3: accounts too, then they're then they're not so easy to convince.

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Speaker 3: No one wants to delete the accounts because that really

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Speaker 3: is stopping and they in their own minds are behaving

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Speaker 3: the way that kid is behaving, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: they're rebelling against the notion of stopping this, and that's

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Speaker 3: a sure sign of addiction. But even if you're not

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Speaker 3: prepared to acknowledge that, there are other signs. The early

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Speaker 3: metabolic signs of addiction are insomnia and focus difficulties, or

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Speaker 3: what people are now currently describing as ADHD. The massive

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Speaker 3: title wave of adult diagnosis of ADHD is in fact

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Speaker 3: diagnosis of the functional effects of addiction, which is should

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Speaker 3: focus that comes from being an addict. It's been measured.

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Speaker 3: It's forty seven seconds I think is our average ability

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Speaker 3: to stay on task at the moment, and that has

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Speaker 3: been a massive decline. And what's happening on a society

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Speaker 3: wide basis is we're fracturing everybody's focus. That's the first

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Speaker 3: thing to go. Focus is the first thing to go.

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Speaker 3: It's the first sign that there's a problem. Then you

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Speaker 3: start noticing things like insomnia, you start noticing stress growing

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Speaker 3: to anxiety, growing to depression and so on. But ask yourself,

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Speaker 3: am as I am I as focused as I remember

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Speaker 3: being ten years ago?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's yeah. Well, I mean everyone who

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Speaker 1: is addicted thinks they're not addicted, or most people, if

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Speaker 1: they do.

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Speaker 3: Or if they do, think they're addicted, or no, they're addicted,

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Speaker 3: or at least suspec most of them don't like the

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Speaker 3: fact that they are and will deny it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I had to, like, in all

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Speaker 1: of my meetings and stuff, even if I just had

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Speaker 1: my phone near me and it would chime or it

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Speaker 1: would like there would be something I would I would get.

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Speaker 1: I would in the middle of the thing. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: pick up my phone, but I would. I would. My

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Speaker 1: attention would shift a minute to the fucking phone. And

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Speaker 1: it's not like I went, oh, that dinged I think

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Speaker 1: I should. I just looked before I'd thought, like, it's

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Speaker 1: Pavlov's dog.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's exactly like Pavlov's dog.

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Speaker 1: It's a trained response.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And just you know, if anyone's not across those experiments,

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Speaker 3: what Pavlov did was get some dogs to cellivate when

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Speaker 3: they heard a bell ring, and the reason was he

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Speaker 3: ring the bell and then give them something to eat.

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Speaker 3: And then he got them to ring. Then the experiment

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Speaker 3: progressed on and it'd ring the bell and not give

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Speaker 3: them something. To eat and they'd celebrate because their brains

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Speaker 3: have been trained. When that bell rings, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be rewarded. And that's what's going on with notifications. That's

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Speaker 3: why there are notifications. By the way, it's not by

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Speaker 3: accident that every app is sending you a million notifications

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Speaker 3: a minute. It's that they know that this is part

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Speaker 3: of the addictive mechanism and it's a very important part

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Speaker 3: of it. In fact, so important that there's a whole book,

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Speaker 3: in a whole chapter in the book dedicated to notifications

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Speaker 3: and why theyre an important part of addiction and why

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Speaker 3: they have to be turned off.

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Speaker 1: Bro, you should be doing workshops on this in every

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Speaker 1: fucking school in Australia. No, you don't have the time

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Speaker 1: or the energy, but I mean, it is so important,

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Speaker 1: and it's like I think everybody, like even I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about now and what do I and I know we're

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Speaker 1: going to have another conversation probably we'll see how we go.

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Speaker 1: We didn't intend to have one, But this is how

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Speaker 1: we work, isn't it. But the door's open down we've

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Speaker 1: kind of but I just think, like, and I know

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Speaker 1: this is often discussed, but talking about real practical like

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Speaker 1: what's really happening physiologically, psychologically, and strategically from the companies,

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Speaker 1: and then what's happening in your body and your nervous

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Speaker 1: system and your brain chemistry when just to like, you

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Speaker 1: know that seek first to understand, like try to understand

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Speaker 1: what this is actually doing to you, not via some

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Speaker 1: meme on social media, but actually to try to understand

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your own body and your own

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Speaker 1: brain and the way that things work. And being able

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Speaker 1: to recognize that. And the other thing too is because

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Speaker 1: like there's a diminishing return on the same dose. So

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Speaker 1: what used to fucking light you up doesn't light you

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Speaker 1: up five years to light you up, now you need ten.

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Speaker 1: Three months later, you need two hundred to get the

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Speaker 1: same response that you used to get from five. So

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Speaker 1: you're training your self up. Oh god, you know.

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Speaker 3: And even that's pure biochemistry. We've got to switch in

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Speaker 3: our brain that every time we give it a dose,

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Speaker 3: it moves up a notch. It's a rat. So so

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Speaker 3: every time we rapchet it up one, it means we

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Speaker 3: need a bigger dose next time. And that's by design.

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Speaker 3: So that's the way our brain works, it's the way

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Speaker 3: our physiology works, and the companies know that and exploit that.

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Speaker 3: Now that has really really bad effects on the way

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Speaker 3: our brain works, but they don't care about that as

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Speaker 3: long as we remain addicted to their product. Mmmm. It's interesting.

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Speaker 3: One of one of the things I suggest people do

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Speaker 3: is is introduce the idea of friction. Intensionally, introduce friction.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that an addictive anything tries to

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Speaker 3: do is remove friction, so it tries to make it easier.

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Speaker 3: So and I give the example of you know, if

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Speaker 3: you're a gambler and you had in order to gamble,

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Speaker 3: you had to you know, get dressed, walk five miles

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Speaker 3: to the casino and then gamble, You'd be much less

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Speaker 3: likely to do it. Then if you could just pull

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Speaker 3: your phone out of bocktt and have a bet right

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Speaker 3: there and then so that you get dressed, leave the home,

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Speaker 3: walk to the casino is friction. And everywhere you can

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Speaker 3: introduce friction between you and the addictive behavior is.

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Speaker 1: A good thing. And you may or may not have

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Speaker 1: any insight into this specifically, but I'm sure you'll have

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Speaker 1: an opinion. The how is the under sixteen band working

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Speaker 1: in Australia? Is that making? Is that doing anything? Or

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Speaker 1: is that a is that window dressing.

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Speaker 3: I think it's important, but not for the reasons that

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Speaker 3: it's often promoted as being important. People get lost in

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Speaker 3: the weeds about this and say it won't work. You know,

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Speaker 3: kids will get around this this marter than we are.

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Speaker 3: They'll figure it out and they will just the same

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Speaker 3: as they have around alcohol. Band. Did you know that

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Speaker 3: you're not supposed to drink if you're under eighteen in Australia.

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Speaker 1: I've heard of that.

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Speaker 3: You wouldn't know it from observing the average under eighteen,

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Speaker 3: but it is the law. And you're not supposed to

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Speaker 3: smoke if you're under eighteen either, But it is because

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Speaker 3: it is the law. The fact that it is the

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Speaker 3: law does, however, introduce friction. It does, however, mean that

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Speaker 3: a parent can say to a kid, no, you are

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Speaker 3: not having a beer because you are seventeen. It gives you.

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Speaker 3: It gives a parent the ability to fall back and say,

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Speaker 3: I have the support of my society. The law is

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Speaker 3: that this is not possible. Sorry, I don't know. If

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Speaker 3: you can hear the dog barking in the background, Well.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 3: Saying I have the backing of society when I tell

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Speaker 3: you you're not doing this. So in that way it's

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Speaker 3: a good idea. In that way is it allows parents

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Speaker 3: and others to say, no, you are not having access

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Speaker 3: to this thing because it is against the law. Will

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Speaker 3: may still break the law, Yes they will. Does it

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Speaker 3: make it harder, Yes it does.

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Speaker 1: There's a guy who comes in to the cafe I

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Speaker 1: have a coffee out every morning. I'm going to give

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Speaker 1: me a shout out. He used to play footy in

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Speaker 1: the AFL Force and killed her. James Gwilt James. And

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Speaker 1: he's got the gorgeousest little girl in the world, cool rosie,

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Speaker 1: and she two and a half and she's got blonde,

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Speaker 1: curly hair, and she looks like something out of a

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Speaker 1: fucking nursery rhyme. And every time she comes in she

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Speaker 1: comes straight to me because she sits on my lap

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Speaker 1: and watches pepper Pig. That sounds creepy. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: it too. Her dad's there. It's all good, right, but

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Speaker 1: it's and she goes from mayhem to complete focus. By

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Speaker 1: the way, we only watched two or three minutes of

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Speaker 1: pepper Pig, but talk about like this tiny little bundle

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Speaker 1: of energy goes to this fully focused cyborg. In a

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Speaker 1: matter of seconds, just watching Pepper Pig and she only

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Speaker 1: comes to me. She don't wonder, she's not interested in me.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I'm the pathway to Pepper Pig. I'm the

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Speaker 1: conduit to the thing that she wants. Dealer, Yeah, that's it.

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Speaker 1: I'm just handing out a little bit of cartoon over

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Speaker 1: here in the corner. And I said to her dad,

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Speaker 1: how much of this does she Yeah? No, we don't

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Speaker 1: let her at home. So that's why she fucking loves you,

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Speaker 1: because she gets whatever her three minute hit every second

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Speaker 1: day or whatever it is. But now I'm feeling like

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Speaker 1: I'm a dealer. Now I'm feeling like I'm enabling some

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Speaker 1: two and a half year old into a lifetime of

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Speaker 1: bloody potential addiction. But it is even at that age

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Speaker 1: can have a massive It's not just fourteen, fifteen, sixteen

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Speaker 1: year olds, you know, it's toddlers.

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Speaker 3: Oh absolutely. I mean you don't have to walk into

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Speaker 3: a supermarket to see that. I mean, you know, all

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Speaker 3: the kids in the in the prams are sitting there

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Speaker 3: set to stunt with an iPad in front of their faces.

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Speaker 3: And I'm that sounds like I'm having a go and

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Speaker 3: I'm not that is a direct consequence of the business

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Speaker 3: model that is being used. The younger you can get

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Speaker 3: people on these things, the better as far as that

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Speaker 3: business model is concerned. And it's not a judgment about

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Speaker 3: what's going on. It's just an observation, and I want

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Speaker 3: people to stand back from it and say, wow, I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure I want that to happen. I will happily,

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Speaker 3: you know, give these kids a shot of vodka to

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Speaker 3: calm them down. Am I happy to do it with

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Speaker 3: digital vodka? Hmm? I saw you laughing there. She's thinking, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I would actually, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like the term digital voca.

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Speaker 1: No, that's good. That's I'm going to write that down.

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Speaker 1: That could be today's podcast titled digital vodka. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know you're not nostradamis, but you're pretty nostrodharmasy. So

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Speaker 1: obviously you're trying to make a dent, which is great.

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Speaker 1: And we've got more awareness, which is great. I think

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Speaker 1: we've got a few more rules and REGs or laws

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Speaker 1: in place, which is good. But like just humor me

401
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Speaker 1: go like left unchecked, like we just let this be

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Speaker 1: a fucking free for all with no awareness or no

403
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Speaker 1: kind of speed bumps put in place for these people

404
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Speaker 1: who are addicted or if not addicted, like significantly influenced

405
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Speaker 1: in their behavior. Like, what's the end of the line,

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Speaker 1: just a total.

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Speaker 3: Blind is you just have to look at a graph

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Speaker 3: of the rates of anxiety depression ADHD diagnosis in Australia

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Speaker 3: and these things are off the charts, right. These are

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Speaker 3: growing by multiples of four or five times in just

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Speaker 3: the last five years. So these things are in steep

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Speaker 3: upward climbs, and you know, we see it occasionally surface

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Speaker 3: in crime statistics, you know, and people sort of vaguely say, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, us holds are up because of mental health

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Speaker 3: or what they mean there is that there's lots of

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Speaker 3: there's an epidemic of schizophrenia in the community. Now schizophrenia,

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Speaker 3: for those of your listeners who aren't quite sure what

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Speaker 3: that is. That's people having hallucinations, being believing that people

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Speaker 3: are out to get them and acting on those beliefs.

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Speaker 3: So it's an extreme form of anxiety about the intentions

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Speaker 3: of others, or an extreme form of paranoia about the

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Speaker 3: intentions of others. And once again there's a tendency to

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Speaker 3: be judging about that and think that all these are

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Speaker 3: poor weak people. But it's not the case. This is

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Speaker 3: an inevitable consequence of doing this to the human brain.

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Speaker 3: You keep pushing that dopamine requirement higher and higher and higher,

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Speaker 3: and you eventually get into the territory of schizophrenia. You

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Speaker 3: don't want to live in a society where there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who are suffering hallucinations and suffering

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Speaker 3: extreme paranoia and are prepared to act on the belief

431
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 3: that you are there to harm them. And you know,

432
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: a more obvious and earlier sign of this is the

433
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 3: massive increase in ADHD diagnosis. It's what I'd call functional ADHD,

434
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 3: which is the symptoms look the same as the traditional ADHD.

435
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: The inability to focus at all on anything at any

436
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: time without medication, and that is on an absolute tear.

437
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: You know, we already have teachers saying they have classrooms

438
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: that you know, you know, twenty years ago they might

439
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 3: have had one kid if that, suffering from something like that.

440
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: But now you know, five, six, seven, eight of the

441
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 3: kids in your average twenty twenty two kid class I

442
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 3: have those problems and or need to be medicated to

443
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: control them.

444
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: Teaching has got to be the hardest job. Like at

445
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: the moment, I thumb and there's a lot of hard jobs,

446
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: but it's got to be in the top for nursings

447
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: up there and a lot of you know people who

448
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: work in that space.

449
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 3: But down the front they're the front line. Both of

450
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: those professions are the front line. They're seeing this day

451
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 3: by day. They're seeing the increase in mental illness, they're

452
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 3: seeing the increase in ADHD and kids.

453
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's going to sound like a weird question,

454
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: not a normal question. I would ask you it's more philosophical.

455
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: But what what drives you to write a book like this?

456
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: I know it's not for money because you make about

457
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: the thirteen cents every time you write a book. We

458
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: know how profitable books are in Australia. I also know

459
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: what is it because you just see that there's a

460
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: need and you want to highlight that and potentially talk

461
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: about some you know, strategies or solutions. Or is it

462
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: because you have a personal interest or you've this has

463
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: been something's happened to you or around you that's triggered this,

464
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: Like where does that come from?

465
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: You're all all of the above, So it is it

466
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 3: is a combination of I'm just naturally a person who

467
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 3: needs to understand how things work, and I rarely buy

468
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: this is a complex problem that we don't know how

469
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: it works. I think the science is good enough now

470
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: that we know how most things work, if we're prepared

471
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: to have an open mind in looking at what the

472
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 3: science is actually telling us. There's a lot of people

473
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 3: out there in your future profession who still favor the

474
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 3: psychobabble and one narrative explanations for all of this, but

475
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 3: it isn't. The narrative explanations are useless. This is neurochemistry

476
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 3: we're talking about, and you push the right buttons, the

477
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: same things will happen every single time in every single human.

478
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: And we know enough now The science is good enough

479
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: for us to be able to put those blocks together

480
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 3: and say this is what is going on. I want

481
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: it to stop. I want the society that we're living

482
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: in to return to a state where not every second

483
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 3: person is potentially suffering from mental illness. I want that

484
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: to stop, and I want it to go on to

485
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: reverse because I think we're a better society if we're

486
00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 3: not all sick. And I at a personal level, yes,

487
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 3: I have seen things like this, both in myself and

488
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 3: in others that I think this, if you apply the

489
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: things that I set out, can be corrected. And I'm

490
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: not suggesting it's easy, but I think it's a lot

491
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 3: easier if you've got a plan.

492
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: If to you on the one to ten ten being

493
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: it's hijacked your life and brain. Do you think you

494
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: have an issue? Not an addiction necessarily, but are you

495
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: challenged in this space? Do you feel like you need

496
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: to be on less or use it less? Or that's

497
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: not a loaded question, that's curiosity.

498
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, like what what.

499
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: Would be the thing that you would want to reduce.

500
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: Or if you're definitely that's.

501
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: What did he say?

502
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: Less porn?

503
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, David Gillespie like comment.

504
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: That that is that's him getting edge, that's him just

505
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: like letting his hand opportunity for a joke about time.

506
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: Fucking welcome to the club. Do it, will you?

507
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 3: And sorry for interrupt let us please tell us.

508
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: I am aware of loo.

509
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: I noticed myself pick up and open apps and open

510
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: apps mindlessly without it happening like I do that. I

511
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: do that a lot. And yeah, so I think I

512
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: use social media and things way too much.

513
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: Mmm, I'm a little bit the same. I'm not as

514
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: bad as I was, but I'm still not there, so

515
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: that one of them.

516
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the app, and when I'm when I'm going to

517
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: do something and forget and then open three social media

518
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: apps and then go, oh, I want to pick up

519
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: my phone.

520
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: For why have I opened that app?

521
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: Because the finger just going straight to that app? You know,

522
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: it's silly.

523
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have this default where if I I'm just

524
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: doing nothing, I'll go, I wonder else, see who liked

525
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: that post I put up like that? Will I'm not thinking,

526
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: oh geez, I'll ring mum, I'll go, I wonder how

527
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: that post is traveling? Oh really, do you know what

528
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: I mean?

529
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 3: But what your brain is saying is just give me

530
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: another dopamine hit. Because what your brain wants when you

531
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 3: do that and check how the post is going is

532
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 3: they want to see the number of likes gone up.

533
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: And because every every single like is an oxytocin hit,

534
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: which produces a dopamine hit. And that's what's going on

535
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 3: in your brain. And you might say, oh, it's harmless,

536
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: I'm just looking at stuff. Well, sure, but it's rewiring

537
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 3: your brain just as effectively as anything else that produces

538
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 3: a dope. Meine it's and then there's also the time cost.

539
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've noticed, but you only get

540
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 3: one life, and the minute that you spent doing that

541
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: is a minute you never get back.

542
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: M M yeah it is. It's like cost benefit analysis.

543
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: What is this? What am I investing? Time? Energy, money,

544
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: maybe focus, attention? What am I getting back? Fucking an addiction?

545
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 3: Like you're also getting some ads?

546
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's not a great ROI if we're talking

547
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: about digital investment in terms of our attention and and

548
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: I know there's no three step plan, but surely, like

549
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: as you're talking, I'm like, yeah, that's that's not me,

550
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: that is me. That's a bit me. Tiff is probably

551
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: the same. I know there's no single entry point or

552
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: stepping off point, but if it.

553
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 3: Is, this is not meant to be like alcoholics anonymous

554
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: or something. This is meant to be for everyone who

555
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 3: has who sees a little bit of themselves in all

556
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 3: of the stories that I put in this book, who

557
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 3: sees some of the things there that they are doing too.

558
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: And the plans I put forward for what to do

559
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: about it are relatively easy to implement, and they're not

560
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: things like throw your phone in the bin. They are

561
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 3: things like introduce friction by doing this instead of this,

562
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: you know, introduce delay by doing it this way rather

563
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 3: than that way. And I walk people through that in

564
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 3: this book and then describe why it matters and what

565
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 3: effects doing that will have on your brain biochemistry.

566
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: Do you touch on? And we'll wind up now because

567
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: I know you've got to get back to your computer game.

568
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: Do you touch on? Do you touch on? AI? I

569
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, so many of my friends don't

570
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: actually write whatever it is they're writing. They don't actually

571
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: write it anymore. They just put in a prompt and

572
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: AI writes it for them and that becomes the letter.

573
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 3: It's a slightly different thing in that AI is not addictive,

574
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 3: but it is something else and it's related. And I

575
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 3: was actually having this thought today and I thought we

576
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 3: might talk about this today, but we've got a little

577
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 3: bit sidetracked. I was thinking, if a guy is doing

578
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: our thinking for us, and increasingly it is, isn't this

579
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 3: just like the Industrial Revolution when machines started doing our

580
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 3: lifting for us. So the idea of there being a

581
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: gym or you're doing a workout in the early eighteen

582
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 3: hundreds would have been frankly laughable because people were just

583
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 3: doing that every day anyway, it was the job. And

584
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 3: for that to have become something that has been created

585
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: is really really interesting, which is you know, you probably

586
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 3: know about Eugene Sandow, sort of the father of bodybuilding

587
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: modern bodybuilding.

588
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the actual mister Olympia, which is the biggest

589
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: comp in the world. The trophy is called the Sandow Yeah.

590
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: And I mean he was the I guess, the original

591
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 3: fitness influencer. If it had an Instagram account, it would

592
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 3: have been mad. But he was a product of something

593
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 3: called the physical culture movement, which really spread throughout Europe

594
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: the United States as a result of the Industrial Revolution,

595
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 3: and it was based in this notion of you are

596
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: no longer using your body for what it was designed

597
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: to do, what it has been doing for the rest

598
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 3: of time up until now when we had all these

599
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 3: Now I got all these machines that do it for us.

600
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 3: So you need to keep training it, you need to

601
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: keep using it, or it will disappear. And I wonder

602
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: is there something like that necessary with AI, because what

603
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 3: a lot of people are doing now with AI is

604
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: using it to do their thinking. And if we use

605
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 3: a machine to do our thinking, do we need something

606
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 3: like the physical culture movement, where we actually design programs

607
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: that where people can do a mental workout every day.

608
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: And I'm not touring a sudoku or something like that.

609
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 3: That's the equivalent of lifting a tin of beans and

610
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: calling it a workout. I am saying programs that are

611
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 3: actually designed to make sure your brain still functions. Yeah.

612
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny when you think about eugen stand out onwards, right.

613
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: Imagine you know, for however long depends, they keep changing

614
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: the timeline. But three hundred thousand years where men and

615
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: women were active, most men and women active all the time,

616
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: lifting shit, like fixing shit or whatever, just moving their

617
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: body a lot, expending physical energy a lot, naturally functional

618
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: and strong, and them projecting forward going, oh, in two

619
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: hundred years, nobody will do any of this, but they'll

620
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: go to this room and then they'll pretend to Yeah,

621
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: they'll pick something up and put it down for an hour,

622
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 1: and then they'll go back and sit in their lounge chair.

623
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's well, there was no need really, no,

624
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: there was no.

625
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 3: Need recently, and and to me, I'm wondering there was

626
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 3: no need for the similar things for brains. And I

627
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: think we're going to need it, and I think there's

628
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: a new Eugene Sander. Maybe it's you and new Eugene

629
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 3: Sander waiting in the wings to do the same thing

630
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: for brains because of what AI is going to do

631
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 3: to or is doing to us.

632
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do actually talk about the importance of training

633
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: our brain, like the importance of maintaining, if not optimizing

634
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: cognitive function and solving problems and being creative and doing all.

635
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 3: It's not just that it's the physical brain interaction. It's

636
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 3: high kinetic sports and so on that have high rates

637
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 3: of thinking and action associated. So you know, not surprisingly,

638
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 3: I would use handball given my association with handball, with

639
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 3: that where that's an extremely high speed, high cardio sport

640
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 3: where things are changing second by second. It's the interaction

641
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: of the brain and the body in that motion that

642
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 3: I think will become more and more important.

643
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another one which I would just because I

644
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: have been a tiny bit involved in, but I've trained

645
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: quite a lot of athletes who do Brazilian jiu jitsu

646
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: Tiff knows one of them, and like it's such a

647
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: cerebral sport where they're on the map, which if you

648
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: haven't seen it, you wouldn't think that. You think it's

649
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: just two bullf ed's just squeezing each other and strangling

650
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: each other.

651
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 3: All highly kinetic sports, fencing, jiu jitsu, all of the

652
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 3: martial arts where your brain has to be functioning at

653
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 3: light speed and incredibly focused or you are going to

654
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 3: get messed up.

655
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh I'm excited. What's the ETA on

656
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:05,959
Speaker 1: the book again?

657
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 3: Did you say twenty eighth of April, just after transit?

658
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: All right, well, we'll do a promo when it comes out.

659
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: It's yeah, that was good, mate, that was so interesting.

660
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: But just also shout out everyone on David's substack page.

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00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: You wrote an article today which I actually read in

662
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: preparation for this, which god, I know, so I've actually

663
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: got it under the under your faces, well can't see

664
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: your face. You're always just a black box, like a

665
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: fucking mystery thing on a plane. But anyway, may I yeah, yeah,

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00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: that's right. But the article is called the Purchased Health Halo.

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00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: We might talk about it next time, but it's on substack.

668
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: Just go David Gillespie substack. It will come up on

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00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: Google or whatever. It's fucking great. So have a read

670
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 1: of that and maybe we'll explore that next time, but Mate,

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00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: appreciate you as always and thanks for the chat and Tiff,

672
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: thanks for hanging out, Thanks lads, Thanks Jo