WEBVTT - The tabloid panic rewriting bail laws

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM. Traditionally,

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<v Speaker 1>the idea of bail meant that someone accused of a

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<v Speaker 1>crime had the right to be free until their trial,

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<v Speaker 1>but over nearly fifty years that has shifted dramatically and

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<v Speaker 1>bail is now used as a tool for crime prevention.

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<v Speaker 1>Jurisdictions across Australia are all moving in the same direction,

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<v Speaker 1>passing more punitive bail laws, with Victoria just passing what

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<v Speaker 1>it calls the toughest laws in the country, but legal

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<v Speaker 1>in human rights experts warner will put more children in custody,

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<v Speaker 1>disproportionately affect First Nations people and potentially increase deaths. On

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<v Speaker 1>romand Today, Legal academic professor Marilyn McMahon on how media

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<v Speaker 1>pressure and politics are reshaping bail and what it means

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<v Speaker 1>for justice. It's Thursday, March twenty seven. Marilyn. The Victorian

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<v Speaker 1>government recently passed what it says are the toughest bail

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<v Speaker 1>laws in the country. So can you tell me about

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<v Speaker 1>these laws.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes. The Premier certainly called them the toughest biale laws

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<v Speaker 2>ever and said that the reforms will provide a jolt

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<v Speaker 2>to the system.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi everyone.

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<v Speaker 4>I just thought i'd jump on here with some breaking

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<v Speaker 4>news tonight from the Victorian Parliament.

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<v Speaker 2>We've just passed the tough new bail laws, the toughest

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<v Speaker 2>in the country. And what was introduced as part of

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<v Speaker 2>those reforms was you had the principle of remand been

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<v Speaker 2>a last resort for youth offenders was abandoned. People charged

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<v Speaker 2>with some crimes including robbery, carjacking, home invasion and aggravated

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<v Speaker 2>burglary will now find it harder to get bail, and

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<v Speaker 2>the government has reintroduced the crimes of committing an indictable

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<v Speaker 2>offense while on bail and breaching a bail condition. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I think what we saw was that the legislation was

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<v Speaker 2>rushed through parliament.

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<v Speaker 4>Tougher bail laws passed Victoria's Parliament in a marathon sitting

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<v Speaker 4>that extended into the early hours of the morning.

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<v Speaker 2>They come into effect in a state where we've already

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<v Speaker 2>got tough bail laws, perhaps the toughest in the country already.

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<v Speaker 2>It's part of a long term trend where we've seen

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<v Speaker 2>bail being turned into a pivotal point for crime prevention. Traditionally,

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<v Speaker 2>bail really operated as a mechanism to ensure people attended

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<v Speaker 2>court for the hearing of their case. But bail bail

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<v Speaker 2>decision making has become much more about the risk that

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<v Speaker 2>a person who's applying for bail will commit an offense

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<v Speaker 2>if released on bail into the community. That really means

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<v Speaker 2>that bail has been politicized and it's now a key

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<v Speaker 2>law and order issue for us, and it's likely I

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<v Speaker 2>think that what we'll see in coming years is that

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<v Speaker 2>more than half the prison population in Victoria will be

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<v Speaker 2>people who'll be held on remand that is they haven't

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<v Speaker 2>been convicted, they've been held prior to be hearing of

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<v Speaker 2>their matter. Now that's I think a very disturbing statistic.

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<v Speaker 5>The Premier has said that these laws are about reducing

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<v Speaker 5>reoffending and making the community safe.

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<v Speaker 3>But for how many decades have governments had reports and

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<v Speaker 3>evidence on their desks about ways to do this that

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<v Speaker 3>don't resort to police and prisons.

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<v Speaker 1>And as these laws were being debated in the Victorian Parliament,

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<v Speaker 1>there were protests outside. So can you talk to me

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<v Speaker 1>about the opposition to this bill? What are people saying?

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<v Speaker 2>You had strong opposition to the bill coming from a

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<v Speaker 2>number of quarters, primarily from legal representatives and organizations human

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<v Speaker 2>rights organizations and especially First Nations people and organizations. Lawyers

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<v Speaker 2>and legal organizations emphasized the traditional concerns that bail should

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<v Speaker 2>only be denied in exceptional circumstances because it breaches the

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<v Speaker 2>right to liberty and also it breaches the presumption of innocence.

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<v Speaker 2>Community organizations drew attention to the well known negative consequences

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<v Speaker 2>if people are denied bail. People can lose their job,

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<v Speaker 2>They'll be separated from their families, It causes mental distress.

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<v Speaker 2>It also exposes people to the dangers and the stresses

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<v Speaker 2>of a prison environment.

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<v Speaker 4>Haven't we been here before?

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty eighteen, sixty five percent of women were locked

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<v Speaker 1>up for less than a month at release without a sentence.

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<v Speaker 4>I am one of those women.

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<v Speaker 2>You had very strong opposition coming from the Victorian Aboriginal

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<v Speaker 2>Legal Service and other organizations representing First Nations people because

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<v Speaker 2>they are so disproportionately affected by harsh bail laws. And

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<v Speaker 2>we've seen this. The terrible case of Veronica and Nelson,

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<v Speaker 2>a First Nations woman who died in custody after being

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<v Speaker 2>denied bail for committing minor offenses, showed just how the

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<v Speaker 2>escalation of a minor offense with a vulnerable individual could

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<v Speaker 2>result in such a terrible consequence.

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<v Speaker 3>Victorian Coroner Simon McGregor found today Miss Nelson had been

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<v Speaker 3>treated in a cruel, inhumane and degrading way by corrections

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<v Speaker 3>officers and medical staff in the thirty six hours she'd

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<v Speaker 3>been in custody.

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<v Speaker 2>There's research from the new South Wales Law Reform Commission

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<v Speaker 2>that tells us there'll be a small portion of people

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<v Speaker 2>who are denied bail who will ultimately be found not

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<v Speaker 2>guilty of their offenses with which their charged. That means

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<v Speaker 2>people will have been incarcerated and serve timed in prison

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<v Speaker 2>for offenses for which they're found not guilty. That's wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we've also got very strong opposition coming from

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<v Speaker 2>the Children's Commissioner in Victoria and other organizations representing youth. Basically,

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<v Speaker 2>what they're pointing to is that we have a breach

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<v Speaker 2>of our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the

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<v Speaker 2>Rights of the Child, which specifies the detention should only

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<v Speaker 2>be a measure of last resort for youth. What we've

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<v Speaker 2>got now under these reforms is that young people will

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<v Speaker 2>be treated like adults when fail decision makers have to

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<v Speaker 2>decide whether to remand them or release them into custody.

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<v Speaker 2>Very predictably. What will now be experiencing is a significant

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<v Speaker 2>increase in the number of young people who have been

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<v Speaker 2>detained in prisons youth centers in Victoria and.

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<v Speaker 1>These laws, as Premier Senter Alan said, are the toughest

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<v Speaker 1>in the country. But other states and territories are all

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<v Speaker 1>moving in the same direction, are they not?

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<v Speaker 2>They are, I think it's unfortunate, But what you see

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<v Speaker 2>in other jurisdictions is the same trend towards increasing putting

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<v Speaker 2>people on remand. Overall, in Australia there's about forty one

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<v Speaker 2>percent of prisoners who are being held on remand and

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<v Speaker 2>we've seen it in states not only like Victoria, New

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<v Speaker 2>South Wales, South Australia. What's been driving it over a

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<v Speaker 2>period of at least a decade now is concern about

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<v Speaker 2>community safety. So where as say twenty years ago, you

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<v Speaker 2>had only a small action of the prison population being

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<v Speaker 2>those people who are being held on remand, today in

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<v Speaker 2>some states like BacT for example, half the prison population

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<v Speaker 2>is comprised of people being held on remand. In South Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>the Northern Territory, in New South Wales, it's about forty

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<v Speaker 2>five percent of the Prision population.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break. How media panic has influenced by all.

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<v Speaker 5>Laws, Hi Ruby Jones. Here, seven Am tells stories that

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<v Speaker 5>and supporting our work.

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<v Speaker 3>From home invasions to stabbings, police pursuits in carjackings, child criminals,

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<v Speaker 3>breaching bail every three hours.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just out of control.

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<v Speaker 3>Rodolfo Arena's jeep was allegedly stolen by teens who were

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<v Speaker 3>already out on multiple counts of bail.

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<v Speaker 1>Marown. You mentioned that these type of bail laws we're

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<v Speaker 1>seeing in Australia have been influenced by media and political

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<v Speaker 1>narratives around crime and a growing concern with community safety.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me about the pressures and narratives that have

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<v Speaker 1>influenced the introduction of these baiol laws.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think in Victoria we've seen there's been a

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<v Speaker 2>recent increase in the crime rate and that has generated

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<v Speaker 2>considerable concern. We've seen also that police have agitated in

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<v Speaker 2>relation to young offenders and they've asked for harsher mail

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<v Speaker 2>laws to deal with them. And we've also seen the

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<v Speaker 2>Premiere introducing the notion of a review of mail laws

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<v Speaker 2>just prior to the weerribe by election.

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<v Speaker 4>Daily we get calls and messages from Melbournian's who are

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<v Speaker 4>sick of not feeling safe in their own homes. Instead

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<v Speaker 4>of action, we get empty words from our leaders. Enough

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<v Speaker 4>is enough.

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<v Speaker 2>And then you had a massive media campaign conducted by

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<v Speaker 2>two radio personalities.

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<v Speaker 4>Joined our campaign to petition the Victorian Parliament it's time

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<v Speaker 4>for action. Bring about bail reform for repeat fenders that

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<v Speaker 4>puts the community first and holds offenders accountable.

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<v Speaker 1>So there it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Then the Herald's son joined in and you've got Channel

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<v Speaker 2>nine News which is also promoting fear of crime being

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<v Speaker 2>committed by people who are on bail.

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<v Speaker 3>Under pressure, the Premiere is talking task.

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<v Speaker 2>The laws need to be changed and they will.

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<v Speaker 3>But not quickly enough. The mother of two, Adele Andrew's

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<v Speaker 3>left terrified after machette wielding thieves broke in while her

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<v Speaker 3>family slept early Tuesday morning.

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<v Speaker 2>Something's very very wrong and I don't know what it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to take. That's a powerful conjunction of circumstances that

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<v Speaker 2>favors the introduction of unity of bail laws.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is not the first time that media attention

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<v Speaker 1>has driven a tightening of bail laws in Australia, is it.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you saw exactly the same thing from about twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twelve to twenty fifteen. You had a couple of very

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<v Speaker 2>high profile offenses being committed in Victoria. Adrian Bailey who

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<v Speaker 2>killed Jill Maher, Sean Price who killed Massa New Kotch,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you had James Garguzulis, who was responsible for

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<v Speaker 2>the Burke Street killings. Those high profile crimes generated again

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<v Speaker 2>enormous media concern, and that media concern drove the Coglan Inquiry,

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<v Speaker 2>which in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen generated very harsh bail

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<v Speaker 2>laws in Victoria. So again what you see is high

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<v Speaker 2>profile but unrepresentative crimes driving law reform.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's been a lot of reporting on youth crime

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<v Speaker 1>in Victoria, in particular repeat use offenders, driving averizon crime.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do the stats actually tell us at.

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<v Speaker 2>The moment, Well, there's obviously been modeling done by the

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<v Speaker 2>Victorian government, but they haven't released it, so we don't

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<v Speaker 2>really know what's driving them. We do know that the

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<v Speaker 2>police have told us that they are concerned about a

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<v Speaker 2>small group of vocidivist youth offenders and that is driving

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<v Speaker 2>their concern for harsher bail laws. What we've seen is

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<v Speaker 2>an increase in youth crime in not only in Victoria

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<v Speaker 2>but elsewhere, and I think that's been a potent driver

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<v Speaker 2>of the bail reforms, in particular the abandonment of that

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<v Speaker 2>principle that you only use imprisonment or remand as a

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<v Speaker 2>last resort when you're dealing with the young offenders in bail.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a question here about the balance between ensuring

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<v Speaker 1>community safety, which is a laudable goal, and protecting individual rights.

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<v Speaker 1>So where do you think the balance sits?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think we've lost any sense of balance in

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<v Speaker 2>the current debate if we take a step back and

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<v Speaker 2>get away from the headlines and be very emotionally driven

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<v Speaker 2>mediate portrayals that we've seen in recent weeks. We have

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<v Speaker 2>to remember, as a community, we have an interest in

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<v Speaker 2>protecting people's rights much of the discussion in recent weeks

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<v Speaker 2>has presumed that people on bail are guilty of their offenses.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's deeply troubling. So I think we need

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<v Speaker 2>to take a step back and realize that once again,

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<v Speaker 2>we are balancing different interests here. There's not only those

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<v Speaker 2>members of the community who've been traumatized by violent crime,

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<v Speaker 2>and they certainly need our attention. I think the second

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<v Speaker 2>thing we need to remember is that much offending is

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<v Speaker 2>related to mental health issues, drug and alcohol problems, family violence,

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<v Speaker 2>and social disadvantage. Tackling those issues will really contribute to

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<v Speaker 2>community safety as well, because they underlie a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the offending that we're seeing. But locking up people in

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<v Speaker 2>prison is a short term solution. We know that people

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<v Speaker 2>have gone to prison aren't deterred, and there's research from

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<v Speaker 2>the United States that suggests if you put a person

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<v Speaker 2>in jail, even for a short period of time we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking maybe three or four days, you increase the likelihood

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<v Speaker 2>that further down the track that person will have more

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<v Speaker 2>contact with the criminal justice system. So I think we

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<v Speaker 2>have a really unfortunate paradox now that is people who

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<v Speaker 2>are demanding that we put more people in prison to

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<v Speaker 2>protect the community may actually be giving us a short

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<v Speaker 2>term solution, but a long term problem. We've got what

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<v Speaker 2>I regard as a return to draconian type bail laws

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<v Speaker 2>that will lock up lots of people who probably shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be in jail. We're capturing a broad category of people.

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<v Speaker 2>What we really need to do is make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>we only remand those people who are a serious risk

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<v Speaker 2>to the community, if at least on bail. That the

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<v Speaker 2>very broad approach that's been adopted by the government is

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<v Speaker 2>one that lacks consultation, that lacks adequate reflection, and therefore

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<v Speaker 2>has all the hallmarks of a aggressive biol policy.

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<v Speaker 1>Marilynd, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks Daniel.

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<v Speaker 1>You can read Marilyn at Mahn's piece in this weekend's

0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.520
<v Speaker 1>edition of The Saturday Paper at the Saturdaypaper dot com

0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:41.160
<v Speaker 1>dot au. Also in the years, Labour surprise tax cuts

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<v Speaker 1>passed through the Lower House yesterday as part of the

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 1>government's Budget night promise of modest cost of living relief.

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<v Speaker 1>The Coalition opposed the tax cuts. In response, Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 1>Albanezi accused the Coalition of being quote de Lulu with

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<v Speaker 1>no Salulu, an Oscar winning Palestinian director Handen. Balal has

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<v Speaker 1>been really after spending twenty four hours detained by the

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<v Speaker 1>Israeli Army. Balal was the co director of No Other Land,

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<v Speaker 1>a documentary about life under the Israeli occupation in the

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<v Speaker 1>West Bank. On Monday, witnesses recorded Balal and two other

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<v Speaker 1>Palestinians being assaulted by around two dozen settlers after being

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<v Speaker 1>taken by IDs soldiers. After his release on Tuesday afternoon,

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<v Speaker 1>Balal's co director Basil Adra said, this might be revenge

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<v Speaker 1>on us for making the movie you've been listening to

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<v Speaker 1>seven Am. We'll be back tomorrow.