1 00:00:03,230 --> 00:00:06,260 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,620 --> 00:00:09,950 Sean Aylmer: Australian success stories and corporate deals don't come much bigger 3 00:00:10,130 --> 00:00:13,760 Sean Aylmer: than this. In the last few years, Afterpay has defined 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,580 Sean Aylmer: the buy now pay later space, changing the way many 5 00:00:16,579 --> 00:00:20,779 Sean Aylmer: consumers purchase products. Anthony Eisen and Nick Molnar founded the 6 00:00:20,780 --> 00:00:24,849 Sean Aylmer: business in 2014. Afterpay listed on the ASX in 2016 7 00:00:24,860 --> 00:00:27,200 Sean Aylmer: at an issue price of just $1 dollar a share. 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,460 Sean Aylmer: In February this year, it hit a remarkable $160 dollars 9 00:00:31,460 --> 00:00:33,920 Sean Aylmer: per share. It settled back to just north of $100 10 00:00:34,130 --> 00:00:37,820 Sean Aylmer: dollars but then along came US giant Square. The company, 11 00:00:37,820 --> 00:00:41,030 Sean Aylmer: founded by Twitter's Jack Dorsey, agreed to buy Afterpay for 12 00:00:41,030 --> 00:00:44,810 Sean Aylmer: $39 billion dollars, the biggest deal in Australian corporate history. 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,020 Sean Aylmer: Of course, it's not the only buy now pay later company. 14 00:00:48,020 --> 00:00:51,530 Sean Aylmer: There are global giants like Klarna and Affirm, local competitors 15 00:00:51,530 --> 00:00:53,990 Sean Aylmer: including Zip Co and then the likes of Apple Pay and 16 00:00:53,990 --> 00:00:58,760 Sean Aylmer: PayPal also entering the space. But Afterpay keeps innovating. In October, 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,490 Sean Aylmer: they're launching Afterpay Money. While others are shifting to the 18 00:01:01,490 --> 00:01:04,250 Sean Aylmer: buy now pay later space, it looks like Afterpay is 19 00:01:04,250 --> 00:01:07,550 Sean Aylmer: moving into more traditional banking products. Anthony Eisen is the 20 00:01:07,550 --> 00:01:11,960 Sean Aylmer: co-founder and co-CEO of Afterpay and my guest today. Anthony, 21 00:01:12,170 --> 00:01:13,250 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 22 00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:15,020 Anthony Eisen: Thanks very much for having me. 23 00:01:15,470 --> 00:01:18,200 Sean Aylmer: So two weeks on, you've just sold the business for 24 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,000 Sean Aylmer: $39 billion dollars. How does it feel? 25 00:01:20,630 --> 00:01:25,069 Anthony Eisen: Oh look, we're really excited about the proposition of working with Square. 26 00:01:25,100 --> 00:01:30,110 Anthony Eisen: We think they're an incredible global company driven by leaders 27 00:01:30,110 --> 00:01:34,790 Anthony Eisen: that are incredible in their own right. From Nick Molnar and my perspective, 28 00:01:34,790 --> 00:01:39,530 Anthony Eisen: the alignment of vision and passion and just founding principles 29 00:01:39,530 --> 00:01:43,700 Anthony Eisen: was so on point when we met and discussed things 30 00:01:43,700 --> 00:01:47,060 Anthony Eisen: obviously in a lot of detail. We think that it's 31 00:01:47,060 --> 00:01:51,830 Anthony Eisen: hugely complementary and gives us a springboard really just to 32 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:57,340 Anthony Eisen: keep developing our unique value proposition globally in an accelerated way. 33 00:01:57,350 --> 00:02:00,410 Anthony Eisen: So we're hugely excited about the proposition. 34 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:03,230 Sean Aylmer: I think you've just answered this question. It was why 35 00:02:03,230 --> 00:02:05,780 Sean Aylmer: you did it, but it is to actually take the 36 00:02:05,780 --> 00:02:07,310 Sean Aylmer: next leap up, is that right? 37 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,690 Anthony Eisen: Yeah. When you look at where we've come from, it 38 00:02:11,690 --> 00:02:15,739 Anthony Eisen: was really focusing on trying to introduce a new trust 39 00:02:15,740 --> 00:02:23,510 Anthony Eisen: equation to consumers and where Afterpay innovated originally was bringing together, you know, 40 00:02:23,630 --> 00:02:28,880 Anthony Eisen: the environments of commerce, payments and finance in a new way. 41 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,180 Anthony Eisen: But at the centre of that, it was about trusting 42 00:02:32,180 --> 00:02:38,090 Anthony Eisen: the consumer. And we were fortunate enough to illustrate our 43 00:02:38,090 --> 00:02:42,560 Anthony Eisen: value proposition at a time where that consumer trust equation 44 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:47,209 Anthony Eisen: was very largely, you know, lost. And when we first 45 00:02:47,210 --> 00:02:50,960 Anthony Eisen: introduced a new way of doing things, we saw the 46 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:57,500 Anthony Eisen: customer response to be hugely significant and self-perpetuating. That's really 47 00:02:57,500 --> 00:03:01,160 Anthony Eisen: gained speed over the last few years, not only in 48 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,250 Anthony Eisen: terms of how we've developed in Australia, but very much 49 00:03:04,250 --> 00:03:07,820 Anthony Eisen: so in the US and globally. You know, it is 50 00:03:07,820 --> 00:03:12,800 Anthony Eisen: about continuing with that evolution Afterpay was never merely a 51 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,150 Anthony Eisen: transaction engine to process payments. It was about how did 52 00:03:17,150 --> 00:03:21,350 Anthony Eisen: you introduce a new way for consumers to be treated 53 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:25,820 Anthony Eisen: very fairly and to create a Win-Win environment between consumers 54 00:03:25,820 --> 00:03:29,210 Anthony Eisen: and merchants. That gives rise to a whole lot of 55 00:03:29,210 --> 00:03:33,320 Anthony Eisen: evolution opportunity. So, yes, very much so. We see it 56 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,420 Anthony Eisen: as an acceleration of that pathway. 57 00:03:36,050 --> 00:03:37,580 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Who actually came up with the idea? 58 00:03:38,020 --> 00:03:41,040 Anthony Eisen: Well, of course, me because it was a really good idea. 59 00:03:41,060 --> 00:03:42,530 Sean Aylmer: Of course! I'm talking to you. 60 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:47,330 Anthony Eisen: You know, there was so much inspiration came from when 61 00:03:47,330 --> 00:03:51,440 Anthony Eisen: I met Nick Molnar, who was my neighbour across the road. 62 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:58,460 Anthony Eisen: Nick was an incredibly savvy Internet commerce person. While he 63 00:03:58,460 --> 00:04:01,760 Anthony Eisen: was in university, Nick toyed around with a whole lot 64 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,460 Anthony Eisen: of different ideas when he was trying to come into 65 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:07,760 Anthony Eisen: the workforce. And I was fortunate enough to be friendly 66 00:04:08,180 --> 00:04:13,280 Anthony Eisen: with him straight off the bat, again, just serendipitously being 67 00:04:13,910 --> 00:04:17,060 Anthony Eisen: neighbours across the road. But he was incredible. We just 68 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:20,210 Anthony Eisen: talked about a whole lot of different business models. He 69 00:04:20,210 --> 00:04:23,900 Anthony Eisen: saw instalments being used in a very crude and rudimentary 70 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:27,920 Anthony Eisen: way in the jewellery industry, which is where he originally 71 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,430 Anthony Eisen: came from. So he thought that that would be a 72 00:04:31,430 --> 00:04:36,590 Anthony Eisen: really incredible opportunity for the next generation, his generation, to 73 00:04:36,589 --> 00:04:40,490 Anthony Eisen: use instalments in a way that turned a traditional industry 74 00:04:40,490 --> 00:04:44,690 Anthony Eisen: model on its head. And we really just evolved Afterpay 75 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,360 Anthony Eisen: together from that initial discussion. So it really came about, Nick, 76 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,480 Anthony Eisen: looking at a whole lot of different models, starting originally 77 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,570 Anthony Eisen: from what he was doing in his bedroom, which was 78 00:04:56,810 --> 00:04:58,300 Anthony Eisen: selling jewellery on eBay. 79 00:04:58,610 --> 00:05:01,460 Sean Aylmer: I think you're being modest there, Anthony, because what I think is 80 00:05:01,650 --> 00:05:04,109 Sean Aylmer: amazing about this story is that, you know, you lived 81 00:05:04,110 --> 00:05:06,239 Sean Aylmer: in the right street, you got together, it started in 82 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,529 Sean Aylmer: 2014 and seven years later you've done what you've done. 83 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,560 Sean Aylmer: Could you ever have imagined that trajectory? 84 00:05:14,490 --> 00:05:18,360 Anthony Eisen: No, I don't I don't think you can really imagine 85 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,110 Anthony Eisen: it is really the truthful answer. The huge privilege that 86 00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:25,320 Anthony Eisen: comes with our journey is for, you know, I'm quite a 87 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,539 Anthony Eisen: bit older than Nick. But it was the first time 88 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:30,779 Anthony Eisen: in my career where we tried to launch something without 89 00:05:30,779 --> 00:05:34,650 Anthony Eisen: actually working out all the business model characteristics in advance. 90 00:05:35,150 --> 00:05:40,890 Anthony Eisen: It was really about wanting to introduce something that turned 91 00:05:40,890 --> 00:05:45,140 Anthony Eisen: a traditional model that was broken on its head. And, 92 00:05:45,570 --> 00:05:48,690 Anthony Eisen: you know, when you have that type of motivation, it 93 00:05:48,690 --> 00:05:52,530 Anthony Eisen: allows for not only just great collaboration, but a whole 94 00:05:52,529 --> 00:05:56,400 Anthony Eisen: spirit of really talented people, even though at the start 95 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,190 Anthony Eisen: it was a very small handful to come together with 96 00:05:59,190 --> 00:06:05,190 Anthony Eisen: a passion. Why our team woke up every morning and 97 00:06:05,190 --> 00:06:08,880 Anthony Eisen: just worked their guts out for a place on, well 98 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,250 Anthony Eisen: before it was the world stage, but just a right 99 00:06:11,250 --> 00:06:15,469 Anthony Eisen: to exist in Australia was from that passion and motivation. So, 100 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:18,690 Anthony Eisen: you know, that's probably is what stands out to me 101 00:06:18,690 --> 00:06:22,860 Anthony Eisen: more than everything else. And when you see consumers react 102 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:27,599 Anthony Eisen: positively to something new that's generating a win-win equation, it's 103 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,770 Anthony Eisen: hugely stimulating. So it was really step by step, to 104 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:34,920 Anthony Eisen: be honest with you. But it's incredible when you see 105 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,370 Anthony Eisen: a drip turn into a flood and you know, you're 106 00:06:38,370 --> 00:06:41,310 Anthony Eisen: on to something because you're having that consumer impact. 107 00:06:41,580 --> 00:06:44,159 Sean Aylmer: No doubt you had a vision and you had people 108 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,730 Sean Aylmer: working incredibly hard. But probably the difference with Afterpay, it 109 00:06:47,730 --> 00:06:51,570 Sean Aylmer: actually had a product that people really, really wanted more 110 00:06:51,570 --> 00:06:55,020 Sean Aylmer: than most other products that are produced or manufactured. When 111 00:06:55,020 --> 00:06:57,690 Sean Aylmer: did you suddenly realise you think, oh, we are onto 112 00:06:57,690 --> 00:06:59,159 Sean Aylmer: something here? What was that point? 113 00:06:59,610 --> 00:07:03,840 Anthony Eisen: It was pretty early in the piece, actually, because you 114 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,080 Anthony Eisen: can imagine when you come up with a new concept 115 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,750 Anthony Eisen: and you go to a retailer and say, look, this 116 00:07:09,750 --> 00:07:13,260 Anthony Eisen: is what we've got in mind. We think consumers have 117 00:07:13,260 --> 00:07:17,430 Anthony Eisen: never had the right relationship with point of sale finance before. 118 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,130 Anthony Eisen: We want to turn that completely on its head. We 119 00:07:20,130 --> 00:07:22,860 Anthony Eisen: want to protect consumers. In the meantime, we don't want 120 00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:26,340 Anthony Eisen: them to pay anything extra. By the way, you're going 121 00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:28,680 Anthony Eisen: to pay us a fee instead of the consumer, but 122 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,630 Anthony Eisen: that's going to work really well for you because, you know, 123 00:07:31,650 --> 00:07:36,060 Anthony Eisen: if you abide by these principles of trust and service 124 00:07:36,060 --> 00:07:38,940 Anthony Eisen: as opposed to selling a product, they're going to really 125 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:41,520 Anthony Eisen: love you for it. And they're going to come back 126 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,340 Anthony Eisen: again and again and you'll sell more and your brand 127 00:07:44,340 --> 00:07:46,890 Anthony Eisen: will be better off for it. And they used to say, well, 128 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:50,160 Anthony Eisen: Nick and Anthony, that sounds terrific, but we don't believe you. 129 00:07:50,190 --> 00:07:53,280 Anthony Eisen: So as you do right at the start, you say, well, look, 130 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,310 Anthony Eisen: let's forget about the contract, let's install it and if it 131 00:07:56,310 --> 00:07:58,310 Anthony Eisen: doesn't work, guys, just turn it off. 132 00:07:59,160 --> 00:07:59,460 Sean Aylmer: Yep. 133 00:07:59,790 --> 00:08:02,820 Anthony Eisen: That was literally the way that we approached it at the start. 134 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,140 Anthony Eisen: What was fabulous was a few smaller retailers at the 135 00:08:07,140 --> 00:08:10,050 Anthony Eisen: time that have become big businesses, one of which is 136 00:08:10,050 --> 00:08:13,620 Anthony Eisen: called Princess Polly, which is run by some incredible people, 137 00:08:13,980 --> 00:08:16,830 Anthony Eisen: really just gave us a go. And we saw the 138 00:08:16,830 --> 00:08:20,820 Anthony Eisen: consumer reaction pretty much straight away. I said to Nick, 139 00:08:20,820 --> 00:08:24,570 Anthony Eisen: we need to do five transactions a day just to 140 00:08:25,410 --> 00:08:29,280 Anthony Eisen: try and test our service and see where it gets to. That 141 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,219 Anthony Eisen: turned into two hundred in a day very quickly. And 142 00:08:32,220 --> 00:08:35,040 Anthony Eisen: we could see the way that people were just saying, like, 143 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,820 Anthony Eisen: what's the catch here? What are we missing? And it 144 00:08:38,820 --> 00:08:42,510 Anthony Eisen: really spread quite quickly. In fact, we got to about 145 00:08:42,510 --> 00:08:47,160 Anthony Eisen: two million customers in Australia without doing really any above 146 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,199 Anthony Eisen: the line advertising whatsoever. 147 00:08:49,230 --> 00:08:49,590 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 148 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:53,760 Anthony Eisen: So it was that immediate impact that consumers at the 149 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,599 Anthony Eisen: start saw something that was very different and that that 150 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,380 Anthony Eisen: helped us spread quite quickly. Of course, we were only 151 00:09:01,380 --> 00:09:05,040 Anthony Eisen: as good as our performance with our merchant partners as well, 152 00:09:05,370 --> 00:09:07,440 Anthony Eisen: who saw the impact quite quickly, too. 153 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,449 Sean Aylmer: But they must have come because I can remember seeing 154 00:09:09,450 --> 00:09:13,590 Sean Aylmer: the Afterpay emblem suddenly appearing in my local shopping centre 155 00:09:13,590 --> 00:09:15,300 Sean Aylmer: a few years ago and I had never heard of 156 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:18,089 Sean Aylmer: after pay at the time. It seems that merchants, once 157 00:09:18,090 --> 00:09:20,400 Sean Aylmer: they started to adopt it, lots of them started to 158 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:20,850 Sean Aylmer: adopt it. 159 00:09:21,330 --> 00:09:25,260 Anthony Eisen: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where success 160 00:09:25,260 --> 00:09:29,309 Anthony Eisen: I think breeds success. And lots of merchants in a 161 00:09:29,309 --> 00:09:33,120 Anthony Eisen: lot of ways follow each other in a very competitive 162 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,030 Anthony Eisen: but still small world. When you talk about retail, you know, 163 00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:41,069 Anthony Eisen: the thing that was really powerful for us in our 164 00:09:41,070 --> 00:09:44,670 Anthony Eisen: conversations and the whole way that we've built our company 165 00:09:45,059 --> 00:09:48,870 Anthony Eisen: is that we didn't come from finance, we didn't come 166 00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:53,219 Anthony Eisen: from payments. We came from commerce and understanding that what 167 00:09:53,220 --> 00:09:57,750 Anthony Eisen: we were building was a platform that connected merchants with 168 00:09:57,750 --> 00:10:01,689 Anthony Eisen: the next generation of consumer. We weren't trying to sell 169 00:10:01,690 --> 00:10:04,420 Anthony Eisen: just a little checkout button at the end or a 170 00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:08,710 Anthony Eisen: finance option. What we were talking to merchants about was 171 00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:11,410 Anthony Eisen: how to connect better with customers and how through our 172 00:10:11,410 --> 00:10:15,340 Anthony Eisen: platform it was more than the sale and it was 173 00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:21,940 Anthony Eisen: about new customers, returning customers, brand loyalty, brand exposure. So 174 00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:25,360 Anthony Eisen: as we tried to prove that out, it became a 175 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,959 Anthony Eisen: very different proposition to just saying, well, you know, Afterpay is 176 00:10:29,290 --> 00:10:34,480 Anthony Eisen: another transaction option. As we talk to merchants today, they 177 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,130 Anthony Eisen: don't compare us to credit cards or that form of checkout. 178 00:10:39,130 --> 00:10:42,550 Anthony Eisen: What they're saying is how many new customers, how much 179 00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:46,510 Anthony Eisen: more exposure is Afterpay giving me compared to, say, like 180 00:10:46,510 --> 00:10:49,719 Anthony Eisen: a Google or a Facebook or other ways that they 181 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,100 Anthony Eisen: connect with customers. 182 00:10:51,730 --> 00:10:53,740 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Anthony. We'll be back in a minute. 183 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,230 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Anthony Eisen, co-founder and co-CEO 184 00:11:02,350 --> 00:11:06,189 Sean Aylmer: of Afterpay. The thing about success is that it breeds competitors. 185 00:11:06,190 --> 00:11:09,490 Sean Aylmer: And certainly, in Australia, there's been a number of competitors. 186 00:11:10,030 --> 00:11:11,439 Sean Aylmer: Even if they're operating in the US, a few of 187 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,780 Sean Aylmer: them seem to be listed in Australia. So you've got that. 188 00:11:13,780 --> 00:11:15,880 Sean Aylmer: Then you've got the Apple Pay's and PayPal's moving into 189 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,990 Sean Aylmer: your space. What's that environment going to be like going forward? 190 00:11:20,410 --> 00:11:23,140 Anthony Eisen: Yeah, I mean, look, competition, as you say, has been 191 00:11:23,290 --> 00:11:27,400 Anthony Eisen: a factor of life from the very beginning. In a 192 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,750 Anthony Eisen: lot of ways, it's actually reinforced the significance of the sector, 193 00:11:31,990 --> 00:11:36,160 Anthony Eisen: which we view as a good thing because you can 194 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,670 Anthony Eisen: see quite plainly over the last three or four years, 195 00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:43,390 Anthony Eisen: just the small thing that we started here in Australia 196 00:11:43,390 --> 00:11:49,150 Anthony Eisen: has now become very globally recognised. You know, from our perspective, 197 00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:53,140 Anthony Eisen: we've always lived with competition, but it's also inspired the 198 00:11:53,140 --> 00:11:57,170 Anthony Eisen: development of what we've proven to be a unique value proposition. 199 00:11:57,190 --> 00:12:01,510 Anthony Eisen: So more than a transaction engine, a platform that's truly 200 00:12:01,510 --> 00:12:07,990 Anthony Eisen: two-sided that connects consumers with merchants is where we see 201 00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:13,660 Anthony Eisen: our differentiation and our competitive advantage. Very few of the 202 00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:18,280 Anthony Eisen: players that you've mentioned actually do have a true two-sided network. 203 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:23,230 Anthony Eisen: It doesn't mean competition isn't there and you respect it 204 00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:28,630 Anthony Eisen: and you evolve with it yourself. But it's about developing 205 00:12:28,630 --> 00:12:32,920 Anthony Eisen: this two-sided platform and not coming from payments, not coming 206 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,510 Anthony Eisen: from finance, which has always been our advantage. So we 207 00:12:37,510 --> 00:12:42,310 Anthony Eisen: feel that while competition will obviously get more intense, it 208 00:12:42,309 --> 00:12:46,600 Anthony Eisen: will bring significant recognition to the sector. But it also 209 00:12:46,630 --> 00:12:50,470 Anthony Eisen: allows us to keep illustrating our differentiation from where we've 210 00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:54,640 Anthony Eisen: come from. Again, we think that there's very good scope 211 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:59,590 Anthony Eisen: to develop our growth from here. Buy now pay later is 212 00:12:59,590 --> 00:13:02,979 Anthony Eisen: a very general term that's been used more often than 213 00:13:02,980 --> 00:13:05,890 Anthony Eisen: not in the media over the last couple of years. 214 00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:09,460 Anthony Eisen: But it still represents a very small percentage of the 215 00:13:09,460 --> 00:13:13,000 Anthony Eisen: total payments universe. So we're still right at the beginning 216 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,770 Anthony Eisen: of what the opportunity represents. 217 00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:16,900 Sean Aylmer: I know we're running out of time. Just a couple 218 00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:19,780 Sean Aylmer: of quick things on that last point. It is only 219 00:13:19,780 --> 00:13:22,330 Sean Aylmer: a small part of the payments universe, but it certainly 220 00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:24,489 Sean Aylmer: has got the attention of politicians and now some of 221 00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:27,880 Sean Aylmer: the big bank CEOs. Is regulation a risk for the sector? 222 00:13:28,630 --> 00:13:33,250 Anthony Eisen: Look, regulation has always been something that's been very important 223 00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:37,110 Anthony Eisen: and it has been a developing topic for us over the last few years. 224 00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:42,969 Anthony Eisen: Regulation is really important and we've always been advocates for that. 225 00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:46,900 Anthony Eisen: The key thing about Afterpay, but also a whole lot 226 00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:51,910 Anthony Eisen: of new digital and technology, innovative businesses that have sprung 227 00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:55,179 Anthony Eisen: up over the last five years is that they're not 228 00:13:55,179 --> 00:13:59,890 Anthony Eisen: exactly the same as the traditional incumbent players. And in 229 00:13:59,890 --> 00:14:03,880 Anthony Eisen: a lot of cases, technology gives the opportunity for businesses 230 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,079 Anthony Eisen: to transcend across a whole lot of different models. Regulation 231 00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:12,520 Anthony Eisen: should always protect the consumer. But what's very critical is 232 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,870 Anthony Eisen: that regulation does adapt with new models that are appearing 233 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:20,110 Anthony Eisen: in the economy if they're benefiting for consumers. So it's 234 00:14:20,110 --> 00:14:23,200 Anthony Eisen: really about trying to develop fit for purpose regulation as 235 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,440 Anthony Eisen: opposed to not having it. It's very important, but it's 236 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,130 Anthony Eisen: important that it also evolves and it's appropriate. 237 00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,040 Sean Aylmer: And just quickly, Afterpay Money. You did a deal with Westpac. 238 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,990 Sean Aylmer: It looked to me from outside like you were sort 239 00:14:34,990 --> 00:14:37,780 Sean Aylmer: of moving more in traditional banking services. I'm not sure 240 00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:40,180 Sean Aylmer: how the Square deal fits into all that. But what 241 00:14:40,180 --> 00:14:42,700 Sean Aylmer: was it just in your thinking in terms of actually moving, 242 00:14:42,850 --> 00:14:45,840 Sean Aylmer: as I saw it, more into traditional sort of credit services? 243 00:14:46,210 --> 00:14:49,000 Anthony Eisen: Yeah. Well, look, the key thing we established with Afterpay 244 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,410 Anthony Eisen: was this equation called trust with the consumer which I said 245 00:14:53,410 --> 00:14:58,210 Anthony Eisen: was broken before. We've spent thousands of hours speaking to 246 00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:01,870 Anthony Eisen: our consumers and we've heard very clearly that they feel 247 00:15:01,870 --> 00:15:05,320 Anthony Eisen: let down by the arrangements of the past. We think 248 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,770 Anthony Eisen: we can evolve our ecosystem to include things that are 249 00:15:08,770 --> 00:15:13,030 Anthony Eisen: really important, like how you save and how you budget 250 00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:16,120 Anthony Eisen: and packaging that and delivering it in a very fair, 251 00:15:16,450 --> 00:15:20,410 Anthony Eisen: transparent and modern way for consumers like they have not 252 00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:24,310 Anthony Eisen: experienced in the past. So it's full steam ahead. All 253 00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:28,960 Anthony Eisen: hats off to Westpac, who from our perspective have really 254 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,830 Anthony Eisen: seen what is possible when you evolve your business model. 255 00:15:32,830 --> 00:15:37,479 Anthony Eisen: So the collaboration with them has been fabulous. And we're 256 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,910 Anthony Eisen: excited to launch our service imminently in October, in fact. 257 00:15:42,910 --> 00:15:46,570 Anthony Eisen: And we think it can create a whole new opportunity 258 00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:49,970 Anthony Eisen: for consumers. And we're excited to show what we can do. 259 00:15:50,620 --> 00:15:52,000 Sean Aylmer: Of course, I should have asked this and just a 260 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,070 Sean Aylmer: very quick one. Jobs. I mean, any time that a 261 00:15:54,070 --> 00:15:56,620 Sean Aylmer: company is taken over and Afterpay's got a pretty decent 262 00:15:56,620 --> 00:15:59,000 Sean Aylmer: workforce now. What happens to all those people who are working 263 00:15:59,010 --> 00:15:59,870 Sean Aylmer: Afterpay now? 264 00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:04,130 Anthony Eisen: Yeah, the key thing about, you know, our discussions with 265 00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:07,610 Anthony Eisen: Square was, was how do we keep momentum? How do 266 00:16:07,610 --> 00:16:10,220 Anthony Eisen: we build on what we've got? If you look at 267 00:16:10,220 --> 00:16:16,670 Anthony Eisen: the combination of our businesses, it's not replacement, it's addition. 268 00:16:16,670 --> 00:16:21,950 Anthony Eisen: And what's also fabulous from our perspective is the investment 269 00:16:21,950 --> 00:16:26,750 Anthony Eisen: and continued investment opportunity in Australia. You know, Square's biggest 270 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:30,650 Anthony Eisen: market outside North America is, in fact, Australia. So we 271 00:16:30,650 --> 00:16:34,640 Anthony Eisen: employ hundreds of people here and intend to employ hundreds more. 272 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,660 Anthony Eisen: So in combination, we think our investment in Australia and 273 00:16:38,660 --> 00:16:42,170 Anthony Eisen: Australia tech, our community here, will be stronger with a 274 00:16:42,170 --> 00:16:45,380 Anthony Eisen: combination and we're excited to deliver on that promise. 275 00:16:45,890 --> 00:16:48,560 Sean Aylmer: Well, Anthony, good luck. You've still a few hurdles to jump before 276 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,560 Sean Aylmer: that deal is consummated, no doubt. But good luck with 277 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,900 Sean Aylmer: all that and congratulations on what you've done with Afterpay 278 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,320 Sean Aylmer: and creating that whole new sector and competition in the market, 279 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,340 Sean Aylmer: which at the end of the day is good for consumers. 280 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,520 Anthony Eisen: Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. 281 00:17:01,940 --> 00:17:06,080 Sean Aylmer: That was Anthony Eisen, co-founder and CEO of Afterpay. This 282 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,119 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join me every 283 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,610 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast with all 284 00:17:10,609 --> 00:17:13,200 Sean Aylmer: the business news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer. 285 00:17:13,220 --> 00:17:14,000 Sean Aylmer: Enjoy your day.