WEBVTT - #2075 Eating Disorders & Body Image - Dr. Catherine Houlihan 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.279 I'll get a welcome to another installment of the U project, 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:06.920 Craig Anthony Harper. It is me again. It's eleven oh 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.920 seven on a Monday in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.680 and ten oh seven on the Sunshine Coast. I'm assuming 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.920 where doctor Catherine Wholahan is sitting. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:16.239 Hi. 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:16.840 How are you? 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:19.360 Hi? I'm very well, thank you? How are you? 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:20.320 Oh? 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.320 Very good? Now I can see you're at home because 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.320 you've got the beautiful greenery behind you. Are you are 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:30.880 you working from home? Or are you just bludging today? 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:36.199 Is there somewhere in the middle? I would say today, Yes, you've. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.760 Got one foot in each camp and that's okay. Now, 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.800 what aren't you rather than me read some bio office 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:45.680 screen in front of me? What don't you just tell 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.200 my listeners Catherine, who you are and what you do 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.880 and what kind of your career and your research is about. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:54.880 Yeah? 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.480 Sure, So I'm a clinical psychologist. I trained over in 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.680 England and Amost ten years ago now, and then came 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:08.199 over to Australia shortly after I completed my doctorate there. 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.800 So that training involved a lot of kind of clinical 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.840 work practicing as a psychologist, being a therapist, plus a 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:20.240 few years prior to that just getting some work experience, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.560 and then since living in Australia for the past eight years, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.520 I've worked in lots of different roles. I've worked clinically 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:32.720 as a therapist of evidence based therapies, predominantly with people 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:37.520 with eating disorders, but also other conditions as well, depressional anxiety, 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.560 other common mental health concerns. I've also had a leadership 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.160 role in a kind of new and developing services, so 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.320 setting up therapy services, again predominantly in the eating disorder space. 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:53.680 That's kind of my specialty as a clinician. And most 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.160 recently and currently I've made a transition from clinical practice 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.520 into academia. So I'm working as a senior academic at 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.480 the local university where I am running the clinic where 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:10.680 our provisional psychologists do their placements their master level students. 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.520 They are essentially training the next generation of therapists. I'm 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.480 doing some teaching and some research, and my research is 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.360 predominantly again in kind of eating disorders and body image research, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.840 looking at new ways of treating people hopefully improving outcomes, 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:27.880 but I also dabble in other areas anything really that 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:29.760 I find really interesting, which is lots and lots of 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:30.880 things in psychology. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:38.400 Yeah, it's I mean when I read Melissa who runs 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.359 My life, said you're talking to doctor Catherine, and I went, 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.120 let me have a bit of a squizzerrony and I went, 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.320 oh my god, we're paysing a pod in that. Well, 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.520 probably I'm way more dysfunctional than you, so I shouldn't 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.600 say that. But like, growing up, I was a fat kid, 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:56.919 right more bal the ibase kid and then who got 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.320 in really good shape. But I went from literally the 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.440 fattest kid in my school to one of the fittest 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.800 kids in my school. But with that and that that, 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.200 you know, that physiological shift is good, but it brought 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:13.000 with it a myriad of psychological and sociological issues. Then 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.160 I started to get my whole sense of self and 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:20.320 self worth and identity from my appearance and perhaps more relevantly, 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.200 what people thought of my appearance. And then I started 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.160 to seek approval and validation and connection and belonging. And 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.240 the more jacked I am, the better I am. But 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.000 that was forty five years ago, Like that was that 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:38.080 was forever ago, and I feel like I feel like 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.440 we haven't really that I think we've maybe gotten worse, 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.840 Like I don't know. It seems like we've got more information, 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:51.000 research and resources around you know, body dysmorphia or body 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:55.360 image issues and disordered eating through to eating disorders, but 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.040 it doesn't seem like it's getting a whole lot better. 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.040 But that's just my take. What do you see? 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.400 It's a pretty accurate one, and it's a really good 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.800 reflection I think in terms of the what we know 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:12.400 from research is that people that actually have issues with 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.360 body image and eating disorders that is increasing, and it's increasing, 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:20.799 particularly in young people. And it's hard to say whether 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.520 it's increasing or if we're just more aware of it. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:24.760 Now. 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.560 That's always the difficulty with these sorts of studies because, 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.640 like you say, awareness is increasing, and when there's more awareness, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:36.120 more people seek help. And the awareness has also spread 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.480 to you know, eating disorders, not just being you know, 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.640 a certain person, you know, young white women. We know 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.880 that eating disorders and body image issues can affect anybody. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.840 They do not discriminate, so it helps. The awareness has 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.039 helped people come forward seeking help, which is when we 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.880 get the data of knowing how many people are struggling. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.000 But there is also probably a good argument to suggest 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.640 that the incidences are actually increasing just because of the 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.360 pressures on young people, because we know mental health generally 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.279 is worsening for that group, and that's when these issues, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.880 even disors and body image start to develop most typically 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.240 because it is a really important time in identity formation 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:24.279 and self worth and self esteem, and that can quite 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.880 easily be wrapped up in things like appearance, body shape, 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:32.279 body size, especially in our society, which promotes kind of 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.839 these ideals that are really unrealistic, and this idea that 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.800 you know a certain body shape or size will make 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.320 you happy, which when we know that's not the case. 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.679 So even if people go on these journeys for health 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:52.719 reasons or otherwise, we know that it doesn't necessarily lead 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:58.560 to happiness. It actually can worsen this idea that self 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:04.039 self image should be solely dependent on appearance factors, especially 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.960 with I don't know if you had this in your experience, 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.000 but because of the narrative in society, someone's body shape 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:15.159 might change and it's positively reinforced by everyone around them, 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.800 and so people can see that as a very good thing, 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:24.880 and that can actually increase the thought that oh, okay, 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.480 well I must keep going or I'm only worthy or 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.599 I'm only acceptable to others if I'm on this. You know, 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.680 whether it's a weight loss track or whether it's getting 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:37.640 fitter or whatever it is, it just measures the importance 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.159 of the self esteem and the body image together when 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:41.960 what we know really is, you know, our worth is 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:43.599 should not be dependent on what we look like. What 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.279 we look like is largely due to genetic factors. We 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.479 can't change it, and it doesn't really have any merit 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.720 in terms of the qualities that we seek out in people, 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.400 like how kind we are, how generous we are, caring, funny, 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.480 all of those things that actually make us kind of 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.880 who we are. So yeah, big complex issue, definitely on 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.000 the rise in terms of the problems that we're seeing, 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.840 the referrals we're seeing when it gets to clinical level 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.320 requiring lots of support. We know that body image issues 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:15.200 are also problematic. But with that awareness, there has also 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:19.960 and I'm not sure if you've come across these in 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.640 your kind of podcasting as well, but speaking to people 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:27.400 who have created more positive approaches, so I think in 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.840 the past, there weren't really any movements or any circles 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.320 where you could find messages that you know, being shaped 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.520 different shapes and sizes is okay, but now there are 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.360 there's kind of body positivity that's one approach to, you know, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.400 loving your body and accepting your body for what it is. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.080 There's body neutrality, which is kind of just trying to 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:52.080 remove any kind of emotion attached to the body. And 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.240 there's body functionality, which is another kind of growing area 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.680 of an approach to body image where you appreciate your 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.600 body what it actually does for you. So it lets 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.080 you walk, you know, if you're able bodied and you 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:06.920 can walk. It lets you walk around the park and 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.320 take in these sites your eyes, let you see the sunset, 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:12.320 you know, and you appreciate your body from actually the 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:13.560 things that helps you do. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:15.080 So I went on a bit of a. 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:19.640 Tangent that I know, trust me and. 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.680 Ask me if you want me to break anything down. 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.120 I tend to go quite quickly on this. 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:23.520 No. 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.040 No, no, no, it's you're doing great. I love it, 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.360 but you, I mean, I've got so many things I 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:29.160 want to talk to you about. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:29.360 Right. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.240 Sometimes I get a guest on and I'm like, how 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:33.839 am I going to chat for an hour or fifty 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.200 minutes with this dude? Because I don't know anything you know, 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.920 it's like, but with this, it's like, this is an 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.199 area of fascination for me. So I'm excited. I agree 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.040 with everything you said, and I think in a perfect world. 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.040 We don't live in that world. But in a perfect world, 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.080 no one judges anyone by how they look, and we 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.120 don't get more or less affection or attention or accolades 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.560 because oh wow, he's attractive and he's not. So he's 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.400 in the group he's not, or she's attractive, she's But 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.880 in the real world, that is what happens. Like, So 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:09.040 there's this dichotomy because the verbal message is, you know, 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.559 it's not about what you look like, it's about your 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.600 values and your behavior and your kindness and your empathy 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:19.680 and what you stand for. And like, I'm with you, yep, 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.440 But I'm also like the pragmatist is like, have you 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.760 been in the real world? Bro? Have you have you 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.360 stepped outside of your I don't mean you, I mean 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.200 have you stepped outside of your fucking laboratory of perfection? 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.480 Because this is not what happens in the real world. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.760 You get accepted or rejected a lot based on appearance. 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:45.400 Now that's not negativity, that's just reality. And so we're 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.360 kind of straddling these two kind of worlds, the one 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.040 where you and I. I talk to people all the 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.679 time about, you know, like what really matters with your body, 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:58.440 and I get you know, you worry about what you 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.280 look like. And I would lie, I said at sixty two, 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.400 as a sixty two year old, like, oh, I don't 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.520 care at all what I look like. Well that's a lie. 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.160 I wish I didn't, but I do. But am I 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:09.560 obsessed with what I look like? 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:09.960 No? 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.480 I once was right. So that's some kind of progress. 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.880 But I think the human experience is that want it 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.480 a lot, not like it or not. We all identify 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.480 with what we look like, and other people identified with 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.960 what we look like. So there's this ever present reality. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:29.800 Oh that's Craig. Oh how do I know? That's great? 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:31.880 Because I can see his face, I can see his body. 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.120 I physically recognize him. It's not like an energy wafted 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.000 into the room and the hairs go up on the 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.800 back of your neck and you go, fuck, Craig's just arrived, right. 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:44.640 So the unavoidable reality is that we do identify with 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.080 our bodies. And I think one of the problems, one 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.360 of the problems for me. Doc was you know, growing 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.600 up where I was this fat, socially invisible kid. Then 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:00.120 I turned into a kid, a teenager who wasn't a 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.079 fat and who was fit and strong and lean and healthy. 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:08.840 I went from being invisible to not invisible, to being 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.000 noticed to being you know, it's not like, oh, I 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.520 was the most popular sought after kid, but I was 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:22.120 definitely more included, more accepted, more sought after. Socially I 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.360 got you know, I went from zero attention from girls, 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.760 you know, to a little bit, which was you know. 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.439 And then so you you as a human, well me anyway, 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.080 so you associate, oh, when I look like this, these 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.040 good things happen. So what I look like matters most 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.360 because before I lost the weight, I was still me. 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.920 I was still a good person, I still cared about people, 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.960 I was still kind, but that didn't do it. But 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.360 then when I changed my body, I got all this 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.800 external validation and so, you like, and it's very hard 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:58.000 then to not think that, well, how good life is 0:11:58.080 --> 0:11:59.959 depends on how good my body looks. 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.080 Yeah, yeah, And it's such a complex issue, and. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.199 There are there's lots of different points there I want 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.400 to touch on because the first one that you're talking 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.240 about kind of leads to the biases that we have 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.760 as individuals, and the first step in that is we 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.960 all need to be really working hard all day every 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:26.319 day to know our own internal biases, how we make judgments, 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.920 where we make judgments, and not kind of judging ourselves 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.360 for that or each other, because our biases come from 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.200 a lot of our external experiences, and we are heavily 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:42.600 influenced by the media society what we're shown, which is 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:44.840 kind of worse than ever now given that we're constantly 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:49.560 glued to devices that are constantly pumping advertisements and literally 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:54.160 shaping our worldview. But I think recognizing when we have biases, 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.120 whether we're treating people in a different way or whether 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.440 we're noticing that there's something happening there, because I think 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.599 every person individually doesn't want to have those biases or 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.000 doesn't want to act on any kind of negative biases 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.079 that will discriminate between people, But sometimes that can happen 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:14.239 because of the messages we've had, because of the associations 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:18.880 we've made, so that can be down to appearance. And again, 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.480 looking across the lifespan, I think there are periods of 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.679 time where those biases might be more present. So if 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.839 you're thinking about young people, you're thinking about the kind 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:33.280 of life stage where romantic attachments are super important, thinking 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:37.280 about the school dynamics and you know, the groups of 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.880 it's not always boys and girls necessarily, but just to 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.400 use a bit of a stereotype there, and attraction to 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.920 the opposite sex, and of course there are obviously also 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.560 like evolution is working for us at all times in 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.360 terms of wanting to be attractive to the opposite sex 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:58.840 because we're programmed to mate, obviously, but I think what happens, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.280 that's a natural process that we're not really able to 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.439 untangle that much or think about, because society has taken 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:13.320 over and told us what attractiveness is. It's not evolution really, 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.959 that's told us that society. You know, I say society, 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:20.120 I mean like corporations that are trying to sell us products. Really, 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.360 when it comes down to it, have told us, you know, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.480 this is acceptable, whether it's like this hair color is 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.560 better than that hair color, this eye color is more attractive, 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.440 this body shape, this body height, this body type. That's 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.680 all kind of been manipulated over time, and it's changed 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.200 over the years. You can go back one hundred years 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.960 and look at what was so called sexually attractive, you know, 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.760 back in one hundred years ago, and it's completely different 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:47.480 to what it is now. So we know it's not 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:51.600 some natural evolutionary things. It's what we're being kind of 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.520 told and how we're being shaped by big kind of 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.560 the powers that be. But I think knowing that that 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.640 ultimately means that we do have bi is there and 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.600 then actively shifting to work more in ligne with our 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.000 values and less with our biases in terms of how 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.880 we're treating other people. So yeah, this is probably most 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.480 prominent in those younger years. I think as we get older, 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:14.880 we do become a bit more. 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.200 Aware, and then. 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.800 I think the attractiveness, you know, like you say, it's 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:24.880 not about oh, I don't care about what I look like. 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.280 I don't want to be or feel attractive. Some people 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.720 can live like that and that's great, and that's great 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:30.080 for them. 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.280 It's it is individualized. 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.920 But I think in terms outside of a romantic relationship, 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.040 where like physical attractiveness seems to be way more important 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.320 at least in that early kind of stage of a 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.720 romantic partnership for me. I think if you ask most 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.520 people in fact, I don't know ninety nine point nine 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:58.080 nine nine percent of people how important is someone's appearance 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.640 informing a relationship with them outside of a romantic relationship, 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.280 And most people would say it's not at all, you know, 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.000 in terms of who my friends are, who my family is, 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.160 I know, we can't choose that, but who we choose 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.960 to actually spend our time with. And this is some 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.320 of the work that I do. With people who do 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.200 have very high, you know, concerns and issues with body image, 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.440 we start with looking at, you know, how are you 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:25.560 judging yourself? 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.440 How are you judging your own self worth? 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.400 And with people with eating disorders, we can kind of 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:34.560 create a pie chart and you slice up all the 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.760 things that give you your kind of worth. The majority of 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.760 it is what my shape is, what my weight is, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.120 and my ability to control those things. So we look 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:45.600 at that and we say, okay, well that makes sense 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:47.760 because who you are with a needing disorder seeking therapy, 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.440 and there's reasons that that's happened to you. 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:51.800 But here we are. 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.160 We've got kind of a you know, seventy five percent 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.480 plus importance of shape, weight and the ability to control 0:16:58.520 --> 0:16:59.880 them in your self worth. 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:02.120 And that's different, by the way, too. 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.240 That's what separates someone with a clinical level problem to 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.719 someone with say, body dissatisfaction, which I think we can 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.879 all say most of us have experienced body dissatisfaction in our. 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:14.560 Lives to varying degrees. 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.160 But the difference between so called normal body dissatisfaction I'm 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:23.840 using air quotes in normal body dissatisfaction to say someone 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.159 with severe body image concerned or an eating disorder is 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.680 the importance on the self worth. So many many more 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.600 of us can say, yeah, okay, I don't like insert 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.800 body part here. I wish that looked a bit different. 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.000 I wish this was a bit different. But I know 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.560 I'm a good person. I know that I have integrity. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:46.919 I know I appreciate my own values, and I know 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.960 that my worth isn't based on that. However, I'm still 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.719 a bit, you know, unhappy with these things. 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:54.000 Someone with an. 0:17:53.880 --> 0:18:00.679 Eating disorder or very significant concerns actually put, I don't 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.120 like this, and that makes me a bad person therefore, 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:04.560 and that makes me not worthy. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.120 So the attachment to that self esteem. 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.879 So anyway, we look at that pie chart, and we 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.800 look at you know, okay, and then we ask okay, well, 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.359 let's just think about kind of attractiveness generally, and attractiveness 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.399 doesn't mean physical, it just means your attractiveness. You know, 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.800 how attractive you are to others or how attractive people 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.560 are to you in terms of wanting to spend quality 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:32.760 time with people and what's important to you in other people. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.919 And if we look at what most people say is 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.640 important to them, physical appearance becomes usually. 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.800 This tiny, tiny slice, if existent at all. 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.520 And what goes in its place in terms of importance 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:52.239 and attractiveness is personality qualities we've talked about so and 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.960 these are going unique to us, but some people really 0:18:55.040 --> 0:19:00.680 value humor, kindness, pairing, ambitious, driven, and all of these 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.040 qualities in terms of who we want to spend our 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.199 valuable time with and who we want to connect with 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.879 day to day, week by week, month by month. And 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:10.280 then we look at those two things, and it's a 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:14.159 really helpful exercise because if you're judging other people in 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.960 a very different way to how you're judging yourself, that's 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.919 a problem and you shouldn't be. And actually, if you 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.880 want to work on your own body image or your 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.359 own self worth, then a really good starting point is 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.280 to ask yourself, Well, how do I judge others? How 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.160 do I value other people? And who in my life 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.720 is the most valuable to me and why? And can 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:42.040 I actually apply those same criteria to myself in terms 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.200 of how I'm judging myself, Because often when we're feeling 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.040 unhappy with ourselves. 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:47.040 We've really. 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.520 Gone off course with our own our own system for judgment, 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.320 and we're tending to judge ourselves very critically, very harshly 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.159 on things that aren't very good to judge yourselves on, 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.240 like our appearance. For others, it's a different story, and 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.320 we would never hold those people to the same standard 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.640 in terms of assessing whether they were worth our time 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.040 and energy. So that's something that I like people to 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.080 think about and take away from, is how are you 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:16.800 judging others? 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.240 Is it different to how you judge yourself? And why? 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.240 And if it is, can you close. 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.560 That gap and actually judge yourself as if as you 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.760 do others, which is maybe more about like your humor 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:27.680 your kindness. 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:34.919 Yeah, thank god, there's humor and kindness. It's all I got. Yeah, 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:41.080 it's I'm with you. I agree. I agree. However, it's 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.960 like people still go out and the prettiest get the 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:48.040 most attention. That's the hard thing. And so then the 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:51.080 pretty girl learns or the pretty boy or or the 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:55.720 or other. You know, it's like, yeah, I agree with you, 0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:00.600 and it's like it's all like I've worked obviously as 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.679 an exercise scientist. I've worked with thousands of people with 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:09.040 body image issues, eating disorders, interesting relationships with food, terrible 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.000 self esteem, great self esteem, and some of the most 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.000 attractive people. If I can say that men and women 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:19.240 that I've worked with are that most insecure because they 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:23.280 get their entire sense of self from almost from you know. 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.640 So anyway, let's I want to ask you a few 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.560 specific things just that's help all. That's great, by the way, 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.800 but helpful maybe for some of our listeners who are like, 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.560 do I have an eating disorder or do I have 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.919 eating issues? Or do I have disordered eating? Can you 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.639 just kind of separate those a little bit for me? 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:45.879 Yeah, absolutely so. 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.400 Disordered eating and eating disorders are kind of closely linked. 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.120 Disordered eating and a pattern of. 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:59.240 Behaviors and thoughts related to either food or body image 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:03.679 or kind of control over these things. Exercise is also 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.600 a behavior that can be kind of disordered in this area, 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:14.600 and eating disorders are when disordered eating has become so 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:18.520 extreme that it meets certain criteria in a kind of 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:24.040 diagnostic manual. So, for instance, if some of the if 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.920 some of those behaviors are happening a certain amount of 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.320 times per week and have been going on for at 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.200