Speaker 1: I'll get a welcome to another installment of the U project,
Speaker 1: Craig Anthony Harper. It is me again. It's eleven oh
Speaker 1: seven on a Monday in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne
Speaker 1: and ten oh seven on the Sunshine Coast. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: where doctor Catherine Wholahan is sitting.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 1: How are you?
Speaker 3: Hi? I'm very well, thank you? How are you?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Very good? Now I can see you're at home because
Speaker 1: you've got the beautiful greenery behind you. Are you are
Speaker 1: you working from home? Or are you just bludging today?
Speaker 2: Is there somewhere in the middle? I would say today, Yes, you've.
Speaker 1: Got one foot in each camp and that's okay. Now,
Speaker 1: what aren't you rather than me read some bio office
Speaker 1: screen in front of me? What don't you just tell
Speaker 1: my listeners Catherine, who you are and what you do
Speaker 1: and what kind of your career and your research is about.
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Sure, So I'm a clinical psychologist. I trained over in
Speaker 2: England and Amost ten years ago now, and then came
Speaker 2: over to Australia shortly after I completed my doctorate there.
Speaker 2: So that training involved a lot of kind of clinical
Speaker 2: work practicing as a psychologist, being a therapist, plus a
Speaker 2: few years prior to that just getting some work experience,
Speaker 2: and then since living in Australia for the past eight years,
Speaker 2: I've worked in lots of different roles. I've worked clinically
Speaker 2: as a therapist of evidence based therapies, predominantly with people
Speaker 2: with eating disorders, but also other conditions as well, depressional anxiety,
Speaker 2: other common mental health concerns. I've also had a leadership
Speaker 2: role in a kind of new and developing services, so
Speaker 2: setting up therapy services, again predominantly in the eating disorder space.
Speaker 2: That's kind of my specialty as a clinician. And most
Speaker 2: recently and currently I've made a transition from clinical practice
Speaker 2: into academia. So I'm working as a senior academic at
Speaker 2: the local university where I am running the clinic where
Speaker 2: our provisional psychologists do their placements their master level students.
Speaker 2: They are essentially training the next generation of therapists. I'm
Speaker 2: doing some teaching and some research, and my research is
Speaker 2: predominantly again in kind of eating disorders and body image research,
Speaker 2: looking at new ways of treating people hopefully improving outcomes,
Speaker 2: but I also dabble in other areas anything really that
Speaker 2: I find really interesting, which is lots and lots of
Speaker 2: things in psychology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean when I read Melissa who runs
Speaker 1: My life, said you're talking to doctor Catherine, and I went,
Speaker 1: let me have a bit of a squizzerrony and I went,
Speaker 1: oh my god, we're paysing a pod in that. Well,
Speaker 1: probably I'm way more dysfunctional than you, so I shouldn't
Speaker 1: say that. But like, growing up, I was a fat kid,
Speaker 1: right more bal the ibase kid and then who got
Speaker 1: in really good shape. But I went from literally the
Speaker 1: fattest kid in my school to one of the fittest
Speaker 1: kids in my school. But with that and that that,
Speaker 1: you know, that physiological shift is good, but it brought
Speaker 1: with it a myriad of psychological and sociological issues. Then
Speaker 1: I started to get my whole sense of self and
Speaker 1: self worth and identity from my appearance and perhaps more relevantly,
Speaker 1: what people thought of my appearance. And then I started
Speaker 1: to seek approval and validation and connection and belonging. And
Speaker 1: the more jacked I am, the better I am. But
Speaker 1: that was forty five years ago, Like that was that
Speaker 1: was forever ago, and I feel like I feel like
Speaker 1: we haven't really that I think we've maybe gotten worse,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know. It seems like we've got more information,
Speaker 1: research and resources around you know, body dysmorphia or body
Speaker 1: image issues and disordered eating through to eating disorders, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like it's getting a whole lot better.
Speaker 1: But that's just my take. What do you see?
Speaker 2: It's a pretty accurate one, and it's a really good
Speaker 2: reflection I think in terms of the what we know
Speaker 2: from research is that people that actually have issues with
Speaker 2: body image and eating disorders that is increasing, and it's increasing,
Speaker 2: particularly in young people. And it's hard to say whether
Speaker 2: it's increasing or if we're just more aware of it.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: That's always the difficulty with these sorts of studies because,
Speaker 2: like you say, awareness is increasing, and when there's more awareness,
Speaker 2: more people seek help. And the awareness has also spread
Speaker 2: to you know, eating disorders, not just being you know,
Speaker 2: a certain person, you know, young white women. We know
Speaker 2: that eating disorders and body image issues can affect anybody.
Speaker 2: They do not discriminate, so it helps. The awareness has
Speaker 2: helped people come forward seeking help, which is when we
Speaker 2: get the data of knowing how many people are struggling.
Speaker 2: But there is also probably a good argument to suggest
Speaker 2: that the incidences are actually increasing just because of the
Speaker 2: pressures on young people, because we know mental health generally
Speaker 2: is worsening for that group, and that's when these issues,
Speaker 2: even disors and body image start to develop most typically
Speaker 2: because it is a really important time in identity formation
Speaker 2: and self worth and self esteem, and that can quite
Speaker 2: easily be wrapped up in things like appearance, body shape,
Speaker 2: body size, especially in our society, which promotes kind of
Speaker 2: these ideals that are really unrealistic, and this idea that
Speaker 2: you know a certain body shape or size will make
Speaker 2: you happy, which when we know that's not the case.
Speaker 2: So even if people go on these journeys for health
Speaker 2: reasons or otherwise, we know that it doesn't necessarily lead
Speaker 2: to happiness. It actually can worsen this idea that self
Speaker 2: self image should be solely dependent on appearance factors, especially
Speaker 2: with I don't know if you had this in your experience,
Speaker 2: but because of the narrative in society, someone's body shape
Speaker 2: might change and it's positively reinforced by everyone around them,
Speaker 2: and so people can see that as a very good thing,
Speaker 2: and that can actually increase the thought that oh, okay,
Speaker 2: well I must keep going or I'm only worthy or
Speaker 2: I'm only acceptable to others if I'm on this. You know,
Speaker 2: whether it's a weight loss track or whether it's getting
Speaker 2: fitter or whatever it is, it just measures the importance
Speaker 2: of the self esteem and the body image together when
Speaker 2: what we know really is, you know, our worth is
Speaker 2: should not be dependent on what we look like. What
Speaker 2: we look like is largely due to genetic factors. We
Speaker 2: can't change it, and it doesn't really have any merit
Speaker 2: in terms of the qualities that we seek out in people,
Speaker 2: like how kind we are, how generous we are, caring, funny,
Speaker 2: all of those things that actually make us kind of
Speaker 2: who we are. So yeah, big complex issue, definitely on
Speaker 2: the rise in terms of the problems that we're seeing,
Speaker 2: the referrals we're seeing when it gets to clinical level
Speaker 2: requiring lots of support. We know that body image issues
Speaker 2: are also problematic. But with that awareness, there has also
Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if you've come across these in
Speaker 2: your kind of podcasting as well, but speaking to people
Speaker 2: who have created more positive approaches, so I think in
Speaker 2: the past, there weren't really any movements or any circles
Speaker 2: where you could find messages that you know, being shaped
Speaker 2: different shapes and sizes is okay, but now there are
Speaker 2: there's kind of body positivity that's one approach to, you know,
Speaker 2: loving your body and accepting your body for what it is.
Speaker 2: There's body neutrality, which is kind of just trying to
Speaker 2: remove any kind of emotion attached to the body. And
Speaker 2: there's body functionality, which is another kind of growing area
Speaker 2: of an approach to body image where you appreciate your
Speaker 2: body what it actually does for you. So it lets
Speaker 2: you walk, you know, if you're able bodied and you
Speaker 2: can walk. It lets you walk around the park and
Speaker 2: take in these sites your eyes, let you see the sunset,
Speaker 2: you know, and you appreciate your body from actually the
Speaker 2: things that helps you do.
Speaker 3: So I went on a bit of a.
Speaker 1: Tangent that I know, trust me and.
Speaker 2: Ask me if you want me to break anything down.
Speaker 2: I tend to go quite quickly on this.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's you're doing great. I love it,
Speaker 1: but you, I mean, I've got so many things I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I get a guest on and I'm like, how
Speaker 1: am I going to chat for an hour or fifty
Speaker 1: minutes with this dude? Because I don't know anything you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, but with this, it's like, this is an
Speaker 1: area of fascination for me. So I'm excited. I agree
Speaker 1: with everything you said, and I think in a perfect world.
Speaker 1: We don't live in that world. But in a perfect world,
Speaker 1: no one judges anyone by how they look, and we
Speaker 1: don't get more or less affection or attention or accolades
Speaker 1: because oh wow, he's attractive and he's not. So he's
Speaker 1: in the group he's not, or she's attractive, she's But
Speaker 1: in the real world, that is what happens. Like, So
Speaker 1: there's this dichotomy because the verbal message is, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not about what you look like, it's about your
Speaker 1: values and your behavior and your kindness and your empathy
Speaker 1: and what you stand for. And like, I'm with you, yep,
Speaker 1: But I'm also like the pragmatist is like, have you
Speaker 1: been in the real world? Bro? Have you have you
Speaker 1: stepped outside of your I don't mean you, I mean
Speaker 1: have you stepped outside of your fucking laboratory of perfection?
Speaker 1: Because this is not what happens in the real world.
Speaker 1: You get accepted or rejected a lot based on appearance.
Speaker 1: Now that's not negativity, that's just reality. And so we're
Speaker 1: kind of straddling these two kind of worlds, the one
Speaker 1: where you and I. I talk to people all the
Speaker 1: time about, you know, like what really matters with your body,
Speaker 1: and I get you know, you worry about what you
Speaker 1: look like. And I would lie, I said at sixty two,
Speaker 1: as a sixty two year old, like, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: care at all what I look like. Well that's a lie.
Speaker 1: I wish I didn't, but I do. But am I
Speaker 1: obsessed with what I look like?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: I once was right. So that's some kind of progress.
Speaker 1: But I think the human experience is that want it
Speaker 1: a lot, not like it or not. We all identify
Speaker 1: with what we look like, and other people identified with
Speaker 1: what we look like. So there's this ever present reality.
Speaker 1: Oh that's Craig. Oh how do I know? That's great?
Speaker 1: Because I can see his face, I can see his body.
Speaker 1: I physically recognize him. It's not like an energy wafted
Speaker 1: into the room and the hairs go up on the
Speaker 1: back of your neck and you go, fuck, Craig's just arrived, right.
Speaker 1: So the unavoidable reality is that we do identify with
Speaker 1: our bodies. And I think one of the problems, one
Speaker 1: of the problems for me. Doc was you know, growing
Speaker 1: up where I was this fat, socially invisible kid. Then
Speaker 1: I turned into a kid, a teenager who wasn't a
Speaker 1: fat and who was fit and strong and lean and healthy.
Speaker 1: I went from being invisible to not invisible, to being
Speaker 1: noticed to being you know, it's not like, oh, I
Speaker 1: was the most popular sought after kid, but I was
Speaker 1: definitely more included, more accepted, more sought after. Socially I
Speaker 1: got you know, I went from zero attention from girls,
Speaker 1: you know, to a little bit, which was you know.
Speaker 1: And then so you you as a human, well me anyway,
Speaker 1: so you associate, oh, when I look like this, these
Speaker 1: good things happen. So what I look like matters most
Speaker 1: because before I lost the weight, I was still me.
Speaker 1: I was still a good person, I still cared about people,
Speaker 1: I was still kind, but that didn't do it. But
Speaker 1: then when I changed my body, I got all this
Speaker 1: external validation and so, you like, and it's very hard
Speaker 1: then to not think that, well, how good life is
Speaker 1: depends on how good my body looks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it's such a complex issue, and.
Speaker 2: There are there's lots of different points there I want
Speaker 2: to touch on because the first one that you're talking
Speaker 2: about kind of leads to the biases that we have
Speaker 2: as individuals, and the first step in that is we
Speaker 2: all need to be really working hard all day every
Speaker 2: day to know our own internal biases, how we make judgments,
Speaker 2: where we make judgments, and not kind of judging ourselves
Speaker 2: for that or each other, because our biases come from
Speaker 2: a lot of our external experiences, and we are heavily
Speaker 2: influenced by the media society what we're shown, which is
Speaker 2: kind of worse than ever now given that we're constantly
Speaker 2: glued to devices that are constantly pumping advertisements and literally
Speaker 2: shaping our worldview. But I think recognizing when we have biases,
Speaker 2: whether we're treating people in a different way or whether
Speaker 2: we're noticing that there's something happening there, because I think
Speaker 2: every person individually doesn't want to have those biases or
Speaker 2: doesn't want to act on any kind of negative biases
Speaker 2: that will discriminate between people, But sometimes that can happen
Speaker 2: because of the messages we've had, because of the associations
Speaker 2: we've made, so that can be down to appearance. And again,
Speaker 2: looking across the lifespan, I think there are periods of
Speaker 2: time where those biases might be more present. So if
Speaker 2: you're thinking about young people, you're thinking about the kind
Speaker 2: of life stage where romantic attachments are super important, thinking
Speaker 2: about the school dynamics and you know, the groups of
Speaker 2: it's not always boys and girls necessarily, but just to
Speaker 2: use a bit of a stereotype there, and attraction to
Speaker 2: the opposite sex, and of course there are obviously also
Speaker 2: like evolution is working for us at all times in
Speaker 2: terms of wanting to be attractive to the opposite sex
Speaker 2: because we're programmed to mate, obviously, but I think what happens,
Speaker 2: that's a natural process that we're not really able to
Speaker 2: untangle that much or think about, because society has taken
Speaker 2: over and told us what attractiveness is. It's not evolution really,
Speaker 2: that's told us that society. You know, I say society,
Speaker 2: I mean like corporations that are trying to sell us products. Really,
Speaker 2: when it comes down to it, have told us, you know,
Speaker 2: this is acceptable, whether it's like this hair color is
Speaker 2: better than that hair color, this eye color is more attractive,
Speaker 2: this body shape, this body height, this body type. That's
Speaker 2: all kind of been manipulated over time, and it's changed
Speaker 2: over the years. You can go back one hundred years
Speaker 2: and look at what was so called sexually attractive, you know,
Speaker 2: back in one hundred years ago, and it's completely different
Speaker 2: to what it is now. So we know it's not
Speaker 2: some natural evolutionary things. It's what we're being kind of
Speaker 2: told and how we're being shaped by big kind of
Speaker 2: the powers that be. But I think knowing that that
Speaker 2: ultimately means that we do have bi is there and
Speaker 2: then actively shifting to work more in ligne with our
Speaker 2: values and less with our biases in terms of how
Speaker 2: we're treating other people. So yeah, this is probably most
Speaker 2: prominent in those younger years. I think as we get older,
Speaker 2: we do become a bit more.
Speaker 3: Aware, and then.
Speaker 2: I think the attractiveness, you know, like you say, it's
Speaker 2: not about oh, I don't care about what I look like.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be or feel attractive. Some people
Speaker 2: can live like that and that's great, and that's great
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 3: It's it is individualized.
Speaker 2: But I think in terms outside of a romantic relationship,
Speaker 2: where like physical attractiveness seems to be way more important
Speaker 2: at least in that early kind of stage of a
Speaker 2: romantic partnership for me. I think if you ask most
Speaker 2: people in fact, I don't know ninety nine point nine
Speaker 2: nine nine percent of people how important is someone's appearance
Speaker 2: informing a relationship with them outside of a romantic relationship,
Speaker 2: And most people would say it's not at all, you know,
Speaker 2: in terms of who my friends are, who my family is,
Speaker 2: I know, we can't choose that, but who we choose
Speaker 2: to actually spend our time with. And this is some
Speaker 2: of the work that I do. With people who do
Speaker 2: have very high, you know, concerns and issues with body image,
Speaker 2: we start with looking at, you know, how are you
Speaker 2: judging yourself?
Speaker 3: How are you judging your own self worth?
Speaker 2: And with people with eating disorders, we can kind of
Speaker 2: create a pie chart and you slice up all the
Speaker 2: things that give you your kind of worth. The majority of
Speaker 2: it is what my shape is, what my weight is,
Speaker 2: and my ability to control those things. So we look
Speaker 2: at that and we say, okay, well that makes sense
Speaker 2: because who you are with a needing disorder seeking therapy,
Speaker 2: and there's reasons that that's happened to you.
Speaker 3: But here we are.
Speaker 2: We've got kind of a you know, seventy five percent
Speaker 2: plus importance of shape, weight and the ability to control
Speaker 2: them in your self worth.
Speaker 3: And that's different, by the way, too.
Speaker 2: That's what separates someone with a clinical level problem to
Speaker 2: someone with say, body dissatisfaction, which I think we can
Speaker 2: all say most of us have experienced body dissatisfaction in our.
Speaker 3: Lives to varying degrees.
Speaker 2: But the difference between so called normal body dissatisfaction I'm
Speaker 2: using air quotes in normal body dissatisfaction to say someone
Speaker 2: with severe body image concerned or an eating disorder is
Speaker 2: the importance on the self worth. So many many more
Speaker 2: of us can say, yeah, okay, I don't like insert
Speaker 2: body part here. I wish that looked a bit different.
Speaker 2: I wish this was a bit different. But I know
Speaker 2: I'm a good person. I know that I have integrity.
Speaker 2: I know I appreciate my own values, and I know
Speaker 2: that my worth isn't based on that. However, I'm still
Speaker 2: a bit, you know, unhappy with these things.
Speaker 3: Someone with an.
Speaker 2: Eating disorder or very significant concerns actually put, I don't
Speaker 2: like this, and that makes me a bad person therefore,
Speaker 2: and that makes me not worthy.
Speaker 3: So the attachment to that self esteem.
Speaker 2: So anyway, we look at that pie chart, and we
Speaker 2: look at you know, okay, and then we ask okay, well,
Speaker 2: let's just think about kind of attractiveness generally, and attractiveness
Speaker 2: doesn't mean physical, it just means your attractiveness. You know,
Speaker 2: how attractive you are to others or how attractive people
Speaker 2: are to you in terms of wanting to spend quality
Speaker 2: time with people and what's important to you in other people.
Speaker 2: And if we look at what most people say is
Speaker 2: important to them, physical appearance becomes usually.
Speaker 3: This tiny, tiny slice, if existent at all.
Speaker 2: And what goes in its place in terms of importance
Speaker 2: and attractiveness is personality qualities we've talked about so and
Speaker 2: these are going unique to us, but some people really
Speaker 2: value humor, kindness, pairing, ambitious, driven, and all of these
Speaker 2: qualities in terms of who we want to spend our
Speaker 2: valuable time with and who we want to connect with
Speaker 2: day to day, week by week, month by month. And
Speaker 2: then we look at those two things, and it's a
Speaker 2: really helpful exercise because if you're judging other people in
Speaker 2: a very different way to how you're judging yourself, that's
Speaker 2: a problem and you shouldn't be. And actually, if you
Speaker 2: want to work on your own body image or your
Speaker 2: own self worth, then a really good starting point is
Speaker 2: to ask yourself, Well, how do I judge others? How
Speaker 2: do I value other people? And who in my life
Speaker 2: is the most valuable to me and why? And can
Speaker 2: I actually apply those same criteria to myself in terms
Speaker 2: of how I'm judging myself, Because often when we're feeling
Speaker 2: unhappy with ourselves.
Speaker 3: We've really.
Speaker 2: Gone off course with our own our own system for judgment,
Speaker 2: and we're tending to judge ourselves very critically, very harshly
Speaker 2: on things that aren't very good to judge yourselves on,
Speaker 2: like our appearance. For others, it's a different story, and
Speaker 2: we would never hold those people to the same standard
Speaker 2: in terms of assessing whether they were worth our time
Speaker 2: and energy. So that's something that I like people to
Speaker 2: think about and take away from, is how are you
Speaker 2: judging others?
Speaker 3: Is it different to how you judge yourself? And why?
Speaker 3: And if it is, can you close.
Speaker 2: That gap and actually judge yourself as if as you
Speaker 2: do others, which is maybe more about like your humor
Speaker 2: your kindness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank god, there's humor and kindness. It's all I got. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's I'm with you. I agree. I agree. However, it's
Speaker 1: like people still go out and the prettiest get the
Speaker 1: most attention. That's the hard thing. And so then the
Speaker 1: pretty girl learns or the pretty boy or or the
Speaker 1: or other. You know, it's like, yeah, I agree with you,
Speaker 1: and it's like it's all like I've worked obviously as
Speaker 1: an exercise scientist. I've worked with thousands of people with
Speaker 1: body image issues, eating disorders, interesting relationships with food, terrible
Speaker 1: self esteem, great self esteem, and some of the most
Speaker 1: attractive people. If I can say that men and women
Speaker 1: that I've worked with are that most insecure because they
Speaker 1: get their entire sense of self from almost from you know.
Speaker 1: So anyway, let's I want to ask you a few
Speaker 1: specific things just that's help all. That's great, by the way,
Speaker 1: but helpful maybe for some of our listeners who are like,
Speaker 1: do I have an eating disorder or do I have
Speaker 1: eating issues? Or do I have disordered eating? Can you
Speaker 1: just kind of separate those a little bit for me?
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2: Disordered eating and eating disorders are kind of closely linked.
Speaker 3: Disordered eating and a pattern of.
Speaker 2: Behaviors and thoughts related to either food or body image
Speaker 2: or kind of control over these things. Exercise is also
Speaker 2: a behavior that can be kind of disordered in this area,
Speaker 2: and eating disorders are when disordered eating has become so
Speaker 2: extreme that it meets certain criteria in a kind of
Speaker 2: diagnostic manual. So, for instance, if some of the if
Speaker 2: some of those behaviors are happening a certain amount of
Speaker 2: times per week and have been going on for at
Speaker 2: least x amount of months, you would be given as
Speaker 2: eating disorder. The other crucial thing is that the disorder
Speaker 2: part in any disorder, but also true for eating disorders,
Speaker 2: it has to have a negative impact on your life,
Speaker 2: on your quality of life and you're functioning for anything
Speaker 2: to be a disorder.
Speaker 3: And I would argue that disordered.
Speaker 2: Eating does have an impact because just the way that
Speaker 2: the brain in the body responds when it's not getting
Speaker 2: enough nutrition.
Speaker 3: I'm sure you're aware of this from your own work.
Speaker 2: And the kind of obsessiveness and the anxiety and the
Speaker 2: need for control that can come from disordered eating, but
Speaker 2: there might not be as perceived, as you know, as
Speaker 2: big a problem with some of disordered eating. But disordered
Speaker 2: eating can predate an eating disorder. So left unchecked, and
Speaker 2: if anyone's listening, I think my biggest advice if it's
Speaker 2: I know we're in Australia at the moment, so I
Speaker 2: would talk about the Butterfly Foundation. They have a free
Speaker 2: help line and you can if you're worried for yourself
Speaker 2: or for someone else, or just interested in resources. They
Speaker 2: have a website around the globe. You know, the UK
Speaker 2: has BEAT, that's their charity. I'm sure America has. Every
Speaker 2: country should have ideally a national charity for NGL, and
Speaker 2: those ones are good even if you're not in the country,
Speaker 2: just to get some advice and resources and information in
Speaker 2: terms of.
Speaker 3: How to seek help, where to seek help if.
Speaker 2: You do want to explore more what's going on for you.
Speaker 1: I had this kind of awakening doc when I was
Speaker 1: I started working in gyms when I was eighteen, and
Speaker 1: just as a gym instructor, I knew not much and
Speaker 1: I didn't do my first degree till a decade later.
Speaker 1: But and I remember talking to people like writing programs.
Speaker 1: I was a bodybuilder, so I was always training, and
Speaker 1: I started training hard when I was fourteen, and so
Speaker 1: by the time I was twenty, I'd already been working
Speaker 1: in gyms for two years and I had six year
Speaker 1: background in training, and so I understood reasonably well right,
Speaker 1: but how to train and how to write a program
Speaker 1: and how to teach someone a squad or a deadlift
Speaker 1: or whatever, or a chin up, or or how to
Speaker 1: teach someone to whatever run or skip poor, not brilliantly
Speaker 1: but okay. But I think by the time I was
Speaker 1: early twenties and I'd been writing fitness programs and strength
Speaker 1: programs and flexibility programs and high performance programs for athletes
Speaker 1: and teams and doing all of that, it dawned on
Speaker 1: me that getting in shape, whatever that means, fit a stronger, leaner,
Speaker 1: different body composition, was primarily about psychology and emotion and
Speaker 1: a little bit about physiology, and it's almost like changing
Speaker 1: your body. And I have this revelation right which probably
Speaker 1: other people had way before me. But my revelation was, Oh,
Speaker 1: I know about anatomy in physiology and biomechanics and nutrition
Speaker 1: and progressive overload and adaptation, but I don't know about humans.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, and how come this guy with not
Speaker 1: much potential gets amazing outcomes and that guy with more
Speaker 1: potential gets a worse outcome? And how come that girl
Speaker 1: who was really inspired stopped after three weeks and that
Speaker 1: lady who was really like a bit ambivalent, she's stuck
Speaker 1: with it? For two, Like, it's such an emotional and
Speaker 1: it like changing your body whatever that means. We're not
Speaker 1: the talking necessarily about getting skinny or losing weight or
Speaker 1: whatever it is, but just changing you know, to improve
Speaker 1: functional strength or speed or fitness or cardio escular health
Speaker 1: or reduce pain. But it's such a psychological and an
Speaker 1: emotional journey and almost like the bodies just the consequence.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, That's how I see it, and that's how we
Speaker 2: try and kind of teach it in education. And I've
Speaker 2: done some education with gyms and schools and anywhere where
Speaker 2: you know, people are more vulnerable to these problems. And
Speaker 2: I think the discourse I was talking about this with
Speaker 2: a couple of colleagues the other day, the discourse is
Speaker 2: changing a little bit. Like even from like the eighties
Speaker 2: and nineties, you know, where it was all about being
Speaker 2: skinny and being thin, and it's we're talking a bit
Speaker 2: more about health now again I'm using air quotes. We're
Speaker 2: very much talking about health and health and health goals,
Speaker 2: which is good on the one hand, because it should
Speaker 2: really be about our health goals. It's like living well,
Speaker 2: living without disease or disability for longer, so that you
Speaker 2: can live the life that you want to live. And
Speaker 2: if you pursue health goals, then your body will do
Speaker 2: what it does given your genetic makeup when those health
Speaker 2: goals are achieved. So if you pursue, you know, a
Speaker 2: cardiovascular goal, to get your blood pumping around your body
Speaker 2: stronger so that you can just walk upstairs, you know
Speaker 2: better and for longer, so that you can go to
Speaker 2: the National Park and climb the steps to the top
Speaker 2: of the hill so you can take in those beautiful views.
Speaker 3: That might be a cardiovascular goal.
Speaker 2: Now you achieve that goal and your body changes because
Speaker 2: of that. You know, it might be weight increase or decrease.
Speaker 2: Your muscle composition might change as a result of that,
Speaker 2: but it's a symptom and not you know, with weight anyway,
Speaker 2: My belief is that weight should never really be a goal.
Speaker 2: It should be a symptom because our these do all
Speaker 2: sorts of different things in terms of wait and it's
Speaker 2: very very nuanced.
Speaker 3: It's not just about the number on the scale.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I'm curious to know in your career how
Speaker 2: much of that it's like the need for you know,
Speaker 2: the psychological understanding in terms of either behavior change or
Speaker 2: in the health and fitness space. Was that or is
Speaker 2: that talked about? Have you seen a change there or
Speaker 2: has it always been part of the kind of educational.
Speaker 1: Programs you know, it's a really that is a really
Speaker 1: smart question. So there's definitely been a shift. I don't
Speaker 1: want to get in trouble, right, but I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people who work in especially in the fitness industry,
Speaker 1: have got just as many psychological and emotional and eating
Speaker 1: issues and body issues as the general public, maybe more.
Speaker 1: I definitely was that I wouldn't say I have no issues.
Speaker 1: Now I definitely do. But but I think so you've
Speaker 1: got people who which is okay because like a lot
Speaker 1: of people who were work in the addiction space, we're addicts.
Speaker 1: They make some of the best counselors. So like for me,
Speaker 1: I can speak from a psychology point of view as
Speaker 1: a researcher and an excise physiology point of view, but
Speaker 1: I also can speak experientially and I talk all the
Speaker 1: time about my relationship with food, which has been just
Speaker 1: like a tumultuous love affair. Right. But I think now
Speaker 1: specific to your question, people are starting to understand the
Speaker 1: nuance of what it is to help someone create a healthier,
Speaker 1: more functional body in a healthy, sustainable way from a physiological, clinical, psychological,
Speaker 1: even sociological and emotional perspective, because you know, everybody's lost weight,
Speaker 1: but almost everybody who lost it regained it.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: The the thing is not do you want to get
Speaker 1: fit and strong? The thing is do you want to
Speaker 1: change your thinking and habits and behavior and operating system
Speaker 1: so that from a functional and a physical and a
Speaker 1: behavioral perspective, you've got a new normal. So when people
Speaker 1: say to me, how do you find the motivation to
Speaker 1: lift weights every day? The answer is I don't because
Speaker 1: it's hardwired into my normal operating system. It's just, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like I've never had alcohol, I've never had booze,
Speaker 1: I've never been drunk, i've never been high, I've never
Speaker 1: smoked cigarettes. And I don't say that sound good. That's
Speaker 1: just what I've not done. So it requires no discipline
Speaker 1: or self control for me to not have a beer
Speaker 1: on a Saturday. So I talk to people about this
Speaker 1: idea of let's create a new normal and then you
Speaker 1: don't need to find willpower and discipline and self control
Speaker 1: and grits and inspiration because it's like nobody has to
Speaker 1: get pumped up to clean their teeth, because it's just
Speaker 1: what they do on autopilot. So I talk about this
Speaker 1: idea of how do we take those sometimes when I'm
Speaker 1: motivated behaviors, the ones that align with who and how
Speaker 1: I want to be, and turn those into all the
Speaker 1: time hardwired of course that's a metaphor, but almost not
Speaker 1: hardwired habits, you know, and when something's a habit, now
Speaker 1: this is me just being me, so, but I think
Speaker 1: there's been a you know, people have had to understand
Speaker 1: if it was only about energy in and out and
Speaker 1: lifting weights and joining a gym, well we would have
Speaker 1: cured this problem a long time ago, and we haven't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's much more about the psychological.
Speaker 3: I mean, as I was when I was leaving the UK.
Speaker 2: There's a big campaign in the National Health Service over
Speaker 2: there and it was called no health without mental health,
Speaker 2: and it was just an agnowledgement that, yeah, it isn't
Speaker 2: such a thing as health and mental health because we're
Speaker 2: not brains and bodies separately in that age duality, you know,
Speaker 2: conversation around is the mindsetarate from the body, and kind of.
Speaker 3: We know that you can't.
Speaker 2: Just separate those two things out and just look at
Speaker 2: physical things and ignore the mental and vice versa, because
Speaker 2: how we think and feel and all of those things
Speaker 2: impact what our bodies do and also how we approach
Speaker 2: making changes to you know, like you said, habits, if
Speaker 2: it's around like physical exercise and things like that, all.
Speaker 3: Kind of starts in the brain.
Speaker 2: And then when our bodies are changing, then that kind
Speaker 2: of the feedback loop goes back to our brains, and
Speaker 2: our brains can start responding a bit differently. And we know,
Speaker 2: for example, the links between like exercise and mood, So
Speaker 2: if you exercise, people report improve moods, so there's a
Speaker 2: clear link.
Speaker 3: So I think, like an education and I get it.
Speaker 2: I get that, you know, we are also humans with
Speaker 2: brains that like shortcuts and conserving energy and not having
Speaker 2: to do the hard work. And the way that the
Speaker 2: whole health system has been set up, and then subsequently,
Speaker 2: like the education system, Yes, you go to you know,
Speaker 2: you do an exercise physiology degree or a psychology degree,
Speaker 2: or you're become a medical doctor, and everything's kind of
Speaker 2: in these silos. And I think we need to get
Speaker 2: a bit better at looking at that kind of more
Speaker 2: holistic view because things do impact each other in the
Speaker 2: space of kind of health and health and wellbeing as well.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's the really one of the things that
Speaker 2: I'm also just noticing as a kind of I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm not really on social media so much just through
Speaker 2: personal choice, but something I've definitely noticed as a consumer
Speaker 2: of you know, media, just you can't get away from it,
Speaker 2: is that there's it's great if someone has an individual
Speaker 2: goal to change something or to make improvements towards you know, goals,
Speaker 2: life goals that they want to be able to live
Speaker 2: us in a certain way. But we are getting so
Speaker 2: many messages at the moment that we should be all
Speaker 2: of us all.
Speaker 3: The time working on something.
Speaker 2: And this is another massive psychological problem because you know,
Speaker 2: I talk to friends who are you know, pretty young,
Speaker 2: healthy individuals, no disease, you know, and they're talking about, well,
Speaker 2: I need to work on my sleep, and I need
Speaker 2: to work on my exercise. I need to start strength training,
Speaker 2: and I need to work on my nutrition. And we
Speaker 2: kind of say, well, why what has a doctor told
Speaker 2: you you need to do that? Have you had some
Speaker 2: ill health recently? And it's kind of this discourse of like, no,
Speaker 2: I don't know why I just feel compelled to be
Speaker 2: working towards these goals because we're constantly, you know, there's
Speaker 2: so much noise that we should, should, should, should, and
Speaker 2: that actually creates psychological problems of anxiety, worrying that we're
Speaker 2: not doing well, not feeling good enough, just being very
Speaker 2: overwhelmed with information and losing sight of our own goals
Speaker 2: and our values, and then worrying that if we don't
Speaker 2: do it, we're going to undergo some serious consequence is
Speaker 2: either now or you know, later in life. So I
Speaker 2: think it's important to going on to that that this
Speaker 2: is also a byproduct of how social media has come.
Speaker 1: About comparison culture, right.
Speaker 2: How we get it in geting our information, get our information,
Speaker 2: and how the discourse is promoting all of these goals.
Speaker 3: And it's really easy to jump on that bandwag.
Speaker 2: And I mean, I know all this, I'm a psychologist,
Speaker 2: and I still find myself thinking like, oh, I need
Speaker 2: to should do that, and I should do that, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, why why am I thinking that? Some of
Speaker 2: those back by research, But you don't want to live
Speaker 2: a very stressed, out, overwhelmed life. So that you can live,
Speaker 2: you know, a few years longer by working on all
Speaker 2: these health goals you want to be able to and
Speaker 2: you're never going to be able to tell you know,
Speaker 2: there's no of course, there's research showing people that do
Speaker 2: this maybe live longer, or people that do this have
Speaker 2: better physical health outcomes, but this research is not We're
Speaker 2: not able to fully apply that to ourselves because none
Speaker 2: of us can get to the end of our life
Speaker 2: and say this is exactly these choices that led me
Speaker 2: to where I am now. And I'm not saying that
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be focused on our health.
Speaker 4: Of course, good health allows you to live like a
Speaker 4: better quality of life, but quality of life is hugely
Speaker 4: impaired when we start becoming anxious, preoccupied, overwhelmed, fearful, regretful,
Speaker 4: worried about what.
Speaker 2: We're doing and just how much we're doing. And I
Speaker 2: think a lot of us are actually feeling quite overwhelmed.
Speaker 1: I feel like for a lot of us, me included,
Speaker 1: at times, no matter where we are literally or metaphorically,
Speaker 1: it's not where we want to be, right. We're terrible
Speaker 1: at contentment, you know. It's like, my life's good, my
Speaker 1: body's good, I've got a good job, people love me,
Speaker 1: I've got healthy relationships, I can walk, I can turn
Speaker 1: on and I tap. There's fresh water, I can push
Speaker 1: a button, there's air conditioning. I live in a safe place.
Speaker 1: My life is amazing. I'm so grateful. I'm so happy.
Speaker 1: It's almost like that's giving up. Oh no, dude, you've
Speaker 1: got to have goals. You've got to grind, you got
Speaker 1: to hustle, you've got to be winning, you've got to
Speaker 1: be moving the needle. It's like, yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: Like maybe I don't think there's anything wrong with grinding,
Speaker 1: hustling and moving the needle. But I also think like
Speaker 1: I tell people, excuse my language, but I tell them
Speaker 1: to have fuck all days. I go have a fuck
Speaker 1: all day where you do fuck all, achieve fuck all
Speaker 1: like and you don't and it's great and you love
Speaker 1: your fuck all day. It doesn't have to be what
Speaker 1: am I achieving doing being creating? No, Because and the
Speaker 1: other thing is if you turn down like the volume
Speaker 1: a bit and you just step back from people who
Speaker 1: are constantly hustling and grinding, I don't think the overwhelming
Speaker 1: kind of state of those people is happiness.
Speaker 2: And that's important because we can lose sight of our goals, Like,
Speaker 2: is the goal to be happy because and what's realistic
Speaker 2: within that? Because happiness is an emotion and all emotions
Speaker 2: are temporary. So if we're pursuing a goal to be happy,
Speaker 2: how happy do we want to be? Do we want
Speaker 2: to feel moderately happy at least three times a week?
Speaker 2: Do we want to feel super happy at least once
Speaker 2: a week. We can't really have a goal to feel
Speaker 2: happy all of the time because that's not realistic and
Speaker 2: we will constantly feel like we're not achieving that goal,
Speaker 2: which will also create negative emotion and send us off
Speaker 2: on this spiral contentment different to happiness. But is my
Speaker 2: goal to be more content and to move less forward?
Speaker 2: You know, like you're saying have an f all day,
Speaker 2: you know, once a week or once a month, or
Speaker 2: just practicing gratitude, you know that actually does lead to
Speaker 2: positive emotion and remembering where we've come, looking back where
Speaker 2: we've come from, rather than always where we want to
Speaker 2: go to. And I think it is part of the
Speaker 2: human condition that we do want to move forward. And
Speaker 2: once we achieve a goal, we're very good at saying, great,
Speaker 2: what's the next goal, But the practice of.
Speaker 3: Pausing and slowing down and.
Speaker 2: Recognizing where you've come from and kind of celebrating is
Speaker 2: it requires discipline, but it can be really beneficial for
Speaker 2: mental health overall. And choosing your goals wisely and making
Speaker 2: sure that they're in line with your value. So don't
Speaker 2: just work on good sleep if you don't believe that
Speaker 2: you have bad sleep. No one's told you that you
Speaker 2: have a sleep problem. But just because everyone else is
Speaker 2: working on sleep, and if you're waking up geeing.
Speaker 3: Refreshed every morning, or you know, or even.
Speaker 2: If you you know, if you have a small child
Speaker 2: who wakes you up five times a night, you can't
Speaker 2: work on your sleep for now. That's not I shouldn't
Speaker 2: be a goal. You know that the time will come
Speaker 2: that you might be able to get some fathers sleep.
Speaker 2: I say this as a parent and someone who used
Speaker 2: to really worry about you know, all this bad sleep.
Speaker 2: What's it doing to my brain? All I'm hearing about
Speaker 2: is how bad it is to get sleep. But I
Speaker 2: literally can't help it because there's a young person that
Speaker 2: needs me in the middle of the night. So making
Speaker 2: realistic goals, not having too many goals at anyone time,
Speaker 2: because you're unlikely to be able to just have that
Speaker 2: much energy to put into them and making sure that
Speaker 2: goals are in line with really your values or your
Speaker 2: phase of life. It's probably, yeah, a good way of
Speaker 2: just not feelings overwhelmed or consumed with productivity and having
Speaker 2: to move forward. And then there's some people, some amazing
Speaker 2: people who take that to the extreme and do live
Speaker 2: a very contented life with very minimal and don't have
Speaker 2: these kind of Western goals of make more.
Speaker 3: Money, get the promotion.
Speaker 2: More and more, and they're able to kind of check
Speaker 2: out and say, I'm going to go and live, you know,
Speaker 2: in a forest and be content with the world around me,
Speaker 2: which is also wonderful.
Speaker 1: It's almost like we live in and I'm just talking
Speaker 1: about generally hire not everyone, of course, but in this
Speaker 1: mindset that we try to fix internal stuff with external solutions,
Speaker 1: like we try to fix emotional and or psychological issues
Speaker 1: with you know, in my case, bigger biceps or wider
Speaker 1: shoulders or less body fat or another motorbike or and
Speaker 1: I know this sounds very ridiculous and egotistical and shallow,
Speaker 1: but that you know, for a while that was part
Speaker 1: of my life and I wasn't the only one in
Speaker 1: the club. You know, that whole kind of if I, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm insecure, so if I look good, I'll be less
Speaker 1: insecure if I you know whatever, fill in the blank.
Speaker 1: I'm lonely, but if I'm more attractive, then I might
Speaker 1: not be lonely or and we kind of learned these
Speaker 1: lessons for obviously I was going to say for better
Speaker 1: or worse. Probably for worse, but you know, this this
Speaker 1: very common I think human practice of trying to resolve
Speaker 1: psychological and emotional issues with stuff, and whether that's body
Speaker 1: or money, or title or brand and not there's anything wrong,
Speaker 1: of course with money or title or brand, but I
Speaker 1: don't think it's necessarily a solution to shitty self esteem.
Speaker 3: Now, it's really not.
Speaker 2: And it's so normal to make that pursuit because if
Speaker 2: you're unhappy with something, we try and solve that problem,
Speaker 2: which is actually a great thing that.
Speaker 3: That's what we're driven to.
Speaker 2: We're trying to move away from pain and the messages
Speaker 2: and the lessons we've had probably in terms of how
Speaker 2: to do that sends us down a bit of a
Speaker 2: tricky road, you know. And then this comes back to
Speaker 2: kind of internal biases. We're told from a very young age,
Speaker 2: this will make you happy, this will make you happy.
Speaker 2: The motorbike will make you happy, This will make you
Speaker 2: more attractive, this will make you feel better. So when
Speaker 2: we don't know what to do, of course we're going
Speaker 2: to use all of that in terms of where we
Speaker 2: want to go. But really is that kind of inner work,
Speaker 2: And as a therapist, this is mainly what I help
Speaker 2: people do is move more inward, which is very hard
Speaker 2: to do because there's often quite.
Speaker 3: A lot of stuff there and that stuff might.
Speaker 2: You know, go back a very long time, and it
Speaker 2: might be very serious stuff that's kind of unresolved, or
Speaker 2: it might be stuff that's actually quite hard to pin down.
Speaker 2: You know, but I had a great childhood and I
Speaker 2: haven't had any significant trauma, But why am I not
Speaker 2: feeling you know, content or happy with myself all my life?
Speaker 2: Or it could be that there has been very serious
Speaker 2: and significant things happen that undoubtedly have led to not
Speaker 2: feeling you know, good about oneself.
Speaker 3: So doing that inner work.
Speaker 2: Is the harder route, it's the more painful route, which
Speaker 2: is why a lot of us avoid it.
Speaker 3: It takes a lot of time and energy.
Speaker 2: It usually requires a good person, whether it's a therapist,
Speaker 2: a trained professional, or someone who's very trusting and able
Speaker 2: to kind of contain a safe space while you do
Speaker 2: that work, and.
Speaker 3: It can really take a long time.
Speaker 2: It can take years of self growth and self reflection
Speaker 2: and practicing different things and understanding the why.
Speaker 3: Before you see any real change.
Speaker 2: And that's not as pretty or as shiny as you
Speaker 2: know by this now and you'll be all right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, I know there's no three step plan
Speaker 1: or any number of step plan. I know that. But
Speaker 1: for people who are listening and there they go, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got eating issues, or I've got disordered eating or
Speaker 1: an eating disorder, or I've got you know, I look
Speaker 1: pretty good, but I simultaneously hate everyone tells me I
Speaker 1: look good. But I don't think I look good. I
Speaker 1: think I look shit. I think I'm to this or
Speaker 1: too little that. Where do we start, like, and again,
Speaker 1: I guess it's a different for different people, but this
Speaker 1: is your area of expertise.
Speaker 2: We break it down into steps absolutely to The first
Speaker 2: step is recognizing it and kind of admitting that there
Speaker 2: is a problem. Because with these sorts of issues, we
Speaker 2: can kind of also think it's quite common for people
Speaker 2: to minimize it.
Speaker 3: It's not that bad.
Speaker 2: Everyone hates how they look, everyone else is on a diet.
Speaker 2: You know it's not much of a problem, but really
Speaker 2: acknowledging it to yourself, Okay, this isn't how I want
Speaker 2: to live. I want to make a change, and then
Speaker 2: seeking help would be the next step. So if you
Speaker 2: have a trusted person in your life that you could
Speaker 2: just share those concerns that can help you on that
Speaker 2: journey reaching out to a GP in the first instance. Again,
Speaker 2: these helplines national eating disorder, disordered eating, body image Charities,
Speaker 2: they will always have pages of resources helplines.
Speaker 3: You can call.
Speaker 2: Different contacts for different professionals, but everyone should be able
Speaker 2: to access a GP, whether it's telehealth or you know,
Speaker 2: in person. But a general practitioner with those concerns then
Speaker 2: should be able to do some follow up questions and
Speaker 2: some screening. There are amazing psychological therapies that are the
Speaker 2: best we've got. That is the first line evidence based treatment.
Speaker 2: And the success rates kind of range from very very
Speaker 2: high for maybe perhaps more recent slightly less severe concerns,
Speaker 2: and if you know a problem has been very very
Speaker 2: long standing and is very very severe, then the response
Speaker 2: rates to the treatment are a bit lower. Say that
Speaker 2: kind of two thirds of people get better, which is
Speaker 2: still better.
Speaker 3: Then it's the best that we've got.
Speaker 2: And often when people start a journey of kind of
Speaker 2: recovery from eating issues again, it is like a long
Speaker 2: journey with maybe a few different it looks different at
Speaker 2: different stages. Maybe there's doing it on your own for it,
Speaker 2: maybe they're seeking help from a therapist or getting more
Speaker 2: intensive support, and then there's periods of kind of maintaining
Speaker 2: those changes and then taking the next step maybe a
Speaker 2: year or two later. It can really look like that,
Speaker 2: but it's a really really worthwhile journey obviously because then
Speaker 2: you come kind of fully recovered in a new life
Speaker 2: with all these new insights. But definitely speaking enlisting any
Speaker 2: support that you have in your social or family kind
Speaker 2: of circles, just having that person there to help seeking
Speaker 2: a GP, and the GP should then be the stop
Speaker 2: gap in terms of screening and then identifying the correct
Speaker 2: services for you. And then there are those charities and
Speaker 2: services that are specifically designed for people with those concerns
Speaker 2: that can offer help and guidance and resources, and even
Speaker 2: if it's for a loved one, you know, the lots
Speaker 2: of resources for care as and parents. If you're noticing
Speaker 2: in your children or your friend or someone that you know.
Speaker 3: They can also for advice.
Speaker 5: Perfect.
Speaker 1: Hey, so doctor Catherine's website is doctorcatpsych dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: Did I get that right, doctorcatpsych dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: She's got a blog. I read some of her posts
Speaker 1: or her blog posts. Very good, Go and have a
Speaker 1: look at those. So doctor cat psych dot com dot
Speaker 1: au forward slash blog. But you'll find it when you
Speaker 1: go to the site. Anyway, do you want to steer
Speaker 1: my audience towards anything else.
Speaker 2: Doc, I also do have an Instagram account which is
Speaker 2: doctor cat Psych and or want to make kind of
Speaker 2: educational videos about psychology and therapy and tips and chicks
Speaker 2: and things like that if people are interested.
Speaker 1: My last question before we go is, so I spoke
Speaker 1: before about you know, when I was a young trainer
Speaker 1: and I had this revelation that it's not actually about
Speaker 1: like I kind of got it wrong. I thought it
Speaker 1: was all about the body, and then I went, oh,
Speaker 1: it's not all about the body. Is there any not
Speaker 1: necessarily anything that you wrong? Maybe you got something wrong
Speaker 1: or you just had a light bulb where you went,
Speaker 1: oh this is new. This is a revelation for me
Speaker 1: in your journey with you know, eating disorders and so on,
Speaker 1: did you have a light bulb moment where you realize
Speaker 1: something that you previously didn't think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a good question.
Speaker 2: I mean as a career as a therapist, there are
Speaker 2: so many light pulments.
Speaker 3: So two come to mind.
Speaker 2: One is definitely related to work with eating disorders.
Speaker 3: When I was a bit more junior.
Speaker 2: And starting out in the field, I think I had
Speaker 2: the same you know, stereotypes and stigmas towards people with
Speaker 2: eating disorders as the general public, you know, just from
Speaker 2: what I've seen and how they're presented in the media.
Speaker 2: So just thinking it was all about the food, you know,
Speaker 2: people just don't want to eat, and why don't they
Speaker 2: want to eat? It's certain foods and they just need
Speaker 2: to learn about different foods and that they're okay and
Speaker 2: then they will just eat.
Speaker 3: But of course, actually it's not about the food.
Speaker 2: I mean, the food is kind of the symptom, and yes,
Speaker 2: there is a lot about the food that you have
Speaker 2: to work through, but really, you know, things like that.
Speaker 2: Same with other mental health problems. It's often like addictions
Speaker 2: and things, it's not about the substance. It's not about
Speaker 2: the thing on the surface, it's actually.
Speaker 3: That's the symptom.
Speaker 2: And I think really with eating disorders and body image concerns,
Speaker 2: now what I've learned is there was a problem. It
Speaker 2: might might be a past problem, so there wasn't once
Speaker 2: a problem, or potentially that problem is still there and
Speaker 2: the eating disorder kind of developed as a solution to
Speaker 2: that problem, but now it's become a problem in its
Speaker 2: own right. So we we first have to treat the
Speaker 2: eating disorder because it's kind of taken over. You can't
Speaker 2: go straight back into trying to understand the underlying problem. Well,
Speaker 2: there's an eating disorder going on, because they have how
Speaker 2: eating sort of affect the body, in the brain, and
Speaker 2: just someone's kind of overall psychology. So you do have
Speaker 2: to kind of fix a problem that was originally a
Speaker 2: solution someone's best to go, you know, that's not their fold.
Speaker 2: It was the best goal of trying to fix a
Speaker 2: different problem. And then once the eating disorder has kind
Speaker 2: of resolved, then you can start working on what the
Speaker 2: other problem was and either looking at it in a
Speaker 2: different way or healing from it in a different way
Speaker 2: because it's a past problem, or if it's still a
Speaker 2: current problem, just solving it in a different way that's
Speaker 2: much more healthy and in line with people's personal goals
Speaker 2: and values.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's very insightful. That's your You should do this
Speaker 5: for a job. You're quite good at it. Thank yeaf
Speaker 5: Hey doctor Catherine, thank you so much. We will say
Speaker 5: goodbye off here, but.
Speaker 1: For the minute. Thanks for being on the new project.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you my pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me