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Speaker 1: I'll get a welcome to another installment of the U project,

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Speaker 1: Craig Anthony Harper. It is me again. It's eleven oh

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Speaker 1: seven on a Monday in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne

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Speaker 1: and ten oh seven on the Sunshine Coast. I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: where doctor Catherine Wholahan is sitting.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: How are you?

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Speaker 3: Hi? I'm very well, thank you? How are you?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Very good? Now I can see you're at home because

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Speaker 1: you've got the beautiful greenery behind you. Are you are

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Speaker 1: you working from home? Or are you just bludging today?

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Speaker 2: Is there somewhere in the middle? I would say today, Yes, you've.

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Speaker 1: Got one foot in each camp and that's okay. Now,

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Speaker 1: what aren't you rather than me read some bio office

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Speaker 1: screen in front of me? What don't you just tell

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Speaker 1: my listeners Catherine, who you are and what you do

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Speaker 1: and what kind of your career and your research is about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Sure, So I'm a clinical psychologist. I trained over in

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Speaker 2: England and Amost ten years ago now, and then came

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Speaker 2: over to Australia shortly after I completed my doctorate there.

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Speaker 2: So that training involved a lot of kind of clinical

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Speaker 2: work practicing as a psychologist, being a therapist, plus a

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Speaker 2: few years prior to that just getting some work experience,

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Speaker 2: and then since living in Australia for the past eight years,

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Speaker 2: I've worked in lots of different roles. I've worked clinically

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Speaker 2: as a therapist of evidence based therapies, predominantly with people

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Speaker 2: with eating disorders, but also other conditions as well, depressional anxiety,

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Speaker 2: other common mental health concerns. I've also had a leadership

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Speaker 2: role in a kind of new and developing services, so

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Speaker 2: setting up therapy services, again predominantly in the eating disorder space.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of my specialty as a clinician. And most

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Speaker 2: recently and currently I've made a transition from clinical practice

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Speaker 2: into academia. So I'm working as a senior academic at

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Speaker 2: the local university where I am running the clinic where

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Speaker 2: our provisional psychologists do their placements their master level students.

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Speaker 2: They are essentially training the next generation of therapists. I'm

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Speaker 2: doing some teaching and some research, and my research is

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Speaker 2: predominantly again in kind of eating disorders and body image research,

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Speaker 2: looking at new ways of treating people hopefully improving outcomes,

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Speaker 2: but I also dabble in other areas anything really that

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Speaker 2: I find really interesting, which is lots and lots of

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Speaker 2: things in psychology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean when I read Melissa who runs

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Speaker 1: My life, said you're talking to doctor Catherine, and I went,

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Speaker 1: let me have a bit of a squizzerrony and I went,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, we're paysing a pod in that. Well,

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Speaker 1: probably I'm way more dysfunctional than you, so I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: say that. But like, growing up, I was a fat kid,

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Speaker 1: right more bal the ibase kid and then who got

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Speaker 1: in really good shape. But I went from literally the

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Speaker 1: fattest kid in my school to one of the fittest

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Speaker 1: kids in my school. But with that and that that,

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Speaker 1: you know, that physiological shift is good, but it brought

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Speaker 1: with it a myriad of psychological and sociological issues. Then

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Speaker 1: I started to get my whole sense of self and

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Speaker 1: self worth and identity from my appearance and perhaps more relevantly,

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Speaker 1: what people thought of my appearance. And then I started

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Speaker 1: to seek approval and validation and connection and belonging. And

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Speaker 1: the more jacked I am, the better I am. But

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Speaker 1: that was forty five years ago, Like that was that

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Speaker 1: was forever ago, and I feel like I feel like

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Speaker 1: we haven't really that I think we've maybe gotten worse,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know. It seems like we've got more information,

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Speaker 1: research and resources around you know, body dysmorphia or body

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Speaker 1: image issues and disordered eating through to eating disorders, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like it's getting a whole lot better.

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Speaker 1: But that's just my take. What do you see?

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Speaker 2: It's a pretty accurate one, and it's a really good

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Speaker 2: reflection I think in terms of the what we know

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Speaker 2: from research is that people that actually have issues with

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Speaker 2: body image and eating disorders that is increasing, and it's increasing,

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Speaker 2: particularly in young people. And it's hard to say whether

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Speaker 2: it's increasing or if we're just more aware of it.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: That's always the difficulty with these sorts of studies because,

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Speaker 2: like you say, awareness is increasing, and when there's more awareness,

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Speaker 2: more people seek help. And the awareness has also spread

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Speaker 2: to you know, eating disorders, not just being you know,

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Speaker 2: a certain person, you know, young white women. We know

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Speaker 2: that eating disorders and body image issues can affect anybody.

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Speaker 2: They do not discriminate, so it helps. The awareness has

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Speaker 2: helped people come forward seeking help, which is when we

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Speaker 2: get the data of knowing how many people are struggling.

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Speaker 2: But there is also probably a good argument to suggest

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Speaker 2: that the incidences are actually increasing just because of the

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Speaker 2: pressures on young people, because we know mental health generally

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Speaker 2: is worsening for that group, and that's when these issues,

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Speaker 2: even disors and body image start to develop most typically

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Speaker 2: because it is a really important time in identity formation

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Speaker 2: and self worth and self esteem, and that can quite

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Speaker 2: easily be wrapped up in things like appearance, body shape,

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Speaker 2: body size, especially in our society, which promotes kind of

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Speaker 2: these ideals that are really unrealistic, and this idea that

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Speaker 2: you know a certain body shape or size will make

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Speaker 2: you happy, which when we know that's not the case.

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Speaker 2: So even if people go on these journeys for health

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Speaker 2: reasons or otherwise, we know that it doesn't necessarily lead

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Speaker 2: to happiness. It actually can worsen this idea that self

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Speaker 2: self image should be solely dependent on appearance factors, especially

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Speaker 2: with I don't know if you had this in your experience,

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Speaker 2: but because of the narrative in society, someone's body shape

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Speaker 2: might change and it's positively reinforced by everyone around them,

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Speaker 2: and so people can see that as a very good thing,

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Speaker 2: and that can actually increase the thought that oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: well I must keep going or I'm only worthy or

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Speaker 2: I'm only acceptable to others if I'm on this. You know,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a weight loss track or whether it's getting

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Speaker 2: fitter or whatever it is, it just measures the importance

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Speaker 2: of the self esteem and the body image together when

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Speaker 2: what we know really is, you know, our worth is

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Speaker 2: should not be dependent on what we look like. What

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Speaker 2: we look like is largely due to genetic factors. We

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Speaker 2: can't change it, and it doesn't really have any merit

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Speaker 2: in terms of the qualities that we seek out in people,

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Speaker 2: like how kind we are, how generous we are, caring, funny,

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Speaker 2: all of those things that actually make us kind of

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Speaker 2: who we are. So yeah, big complex issue, definitely on

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Speaker 2: the rise in terms of the problems that we're seeing,

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Speaker 2: the referrals we're seeing when it gets to clinical level

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Speaker 2: requiring lots of support. We know that body image issues

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Speaker 2: are also problematic. But with that awareness, there has also

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Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if you've come across these in

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Speaker 2: your kind of podcasting as well, but speaking to people

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Speaker 2: who have created more positive approaches, so I think in

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Speaker 2: the past, there weren't really any movements or any circles

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Speaker 2: where you could find messages that you know, being shaped

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Speaker 2: different shapes and sizes is okay, but now there are

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Speaker 2: there's kind of body positivity that's one approach to, you know,

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Speaker 2: loving your body and accepting your body for what it is.

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Speaker 2: There's body neutrality, which is kind of just trying to

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Speaker 2: remove any kind of emotion attached to the body. And

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Speaker 2: there's body functionality, which is another kind of growing area

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Speaker 2: of an approach to body image where you appreciate your

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Speaker 2: body what it actually does for you. So it lets

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Speaker 2: you walk, you know, if you're able bodied and you

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Speaker 2: can walk. It lets you walk around the park and

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Speaker 2: take in these sites your eyes, let you see the sunset,

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Speaker 2: you know, and you appreciate your body from actually the

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Speaker 2: things that helps you do.

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Speaker 3: So I went on a bit of a.

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Speaker 1: Tangent that I know, trust me and.

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Speaker 2: Ask me if you want me to break anything down.

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Speaker 2: I tend to go quite quickly on this.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's you're doing great. I love it,

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Speaker 1: but you, I mean, I've got so many things I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you about.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I get a guest on and I'm like, how

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Speaker 1: am I going to chat for an hour or fifty

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Speaker 1: minutes with this dude? Because I don't know anything you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like, but with this, it's like, this is an

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Speaker 1: area of fascination for me. So I'm excited. I agree

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Speaker 1: with everything you said, and I think in a perfect world.

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Speaker 1: We don't live in that world. But in a perfect world,

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Speaker 1: no one judges anyone by how they look, and we

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Speaker 1: don't get more or less affection or attention or accolades

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Speaker 1: because oh wow, he's attractive and he's not. So he's

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Speaker 1: in the group he's not, or she's attractive, she's But

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Speaker 1: in the real world, that is what happens. Like, So

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Speaker 1: there's this dichotomy because the verbal message is, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not about what you look like, it's about your

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Speaker 1: values and your behavior and your kindness and your empathy

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Speaker 1: and what you stand for. And like, I'm with you, yep,

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Speaker 1: But I'm also like the pragmatist is like, have you

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Speaker 1: been in the real world? Bro? Have you have you

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Speaker 1: stepped outside of your I don't mean you, I mean

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Speaker 1: have you stepped outside of your fucking laboratory of perfection?

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Speaker 1: Because this is not what happens in the real world.

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Speaker 1: You get accepted or rejected a lot based on appearance.

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Speaker 1: Now that's not negativity, that's just reality. And so we're

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Speaker 1: kind of straddling these two kind of worlds, the one

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Speaker 1: where you and I. I talk to people all the

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Speaker 1: time about, you know, like what really matters with your body,

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Speaker 1: and I get you know, you worry about what you

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Speaker 1: look like. And I would lie, I said at sixty two,

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Speaker 1: as a sixty two year old, like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: care at all what I look like. Well that's a lie.

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Speaker 1: I wish I didn't, but I do. But am I

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Speaker 1: obsessed with what I look like?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: I once was right. So that's some kind of progress.

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Speaker 1: But I think the human experience is that want it

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Speaker 1: a lot, not like it or not. We all identify

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Speaker 1: with what we look like, and other people identified with

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Speaker 1: what we look like. So there's this ever present reality.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's Craig. Oh how do I know? That's great?

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Speaker 1: Because I can see his face, I can see his body.

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Speaker 1: I physically recognize him. It's not like an energy wafted

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Speaker 1: into the room and the hairs go up on the

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Speaker 1: back of your neck and you go, fuck, Craig's just arrived, right.

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Speaker 1: So the unavoidable reality is that we do identify with

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Speaker 1: our bodies. And I think one of the problems, one

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Speaker 1: of the problems for me. Doc was you know, growing

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Speaker 1: up where I was this fat, socially invisible kid. Then

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Speaker 1: I turned into a kid, a teenager who wasn't a

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Speaker 1: fat and who was fit and strong and lean and healthy.

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Speaker 1: I went from being invisible to not invisible, to being

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Speaker 1: noticed to being you know, it's not like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: was the most popular sought after kid, but I was

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Speaker 1: definitely more included, more accepted, more sought after. Socially I

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Speaker 1: got you know, I went from zero attention from girls,

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Speaker 1: you know, to a little bit, which was you know.

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Speaker 1: And then so you you as a human, well me anyway,

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Speaker 1: so you associate, oh, when I look like this, these

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Speaker 1: good things happen. So what I look like matters most

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Speaker 1: because before I lost the weight, I was still me.

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Speaker 1: I was still a good person, I still cared about people,

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Speaker 1: I was still kind, but that didn't do it. But

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Speaker 1: then when I changed my body, I got all this

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Speaker 1: external validation and so, you like, and it's very hard

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Speaker 1: then to not think that, well, how good life is

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Speaker 1: depends on how good my body looks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it's such a complex issue, and.

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Speaker 2: There are there's lots of different points there I want

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Speaker 2: to touch on because the first one that you're talking

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Speaker 2: about kind of leads to the biases that we have

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Speaker 2: as individuals, and the first step in that is we

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Speaker 2: all need to be really working hard all day every

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Speaker 2: day to know our own internal biases, how we make judgments,

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Speaker 2: where we make judgments, and not kind of judging ourselves

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Speaker 2: for that or each other, because our biases come from

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Speaker 2: a lot of our external experiences, and we are heavily

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Speaker 2: influenced by the media society what we're shown, which is

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Speaker 2: kind of worse than ever now given that we're constantly

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Speaker 2: glued to devices that are constantly pumping advertisements and literally

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Speaker 2: shaping our worldview. But I think recognizing when we have biases,

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Speaker 2: whether we're treating people in a different way or whether

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Speaker 2: we're noticing that there's something happening there, because I think

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Speaker 2: every person individually doesn't want to have those biases or

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Speaker 2: doesn't want to act on any kind of negative biases

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Speaker 2: that will discriminate between people, But sometimes that can happen

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Speaker 2: because of the messages we've had, because of the associations

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Speaker 2: we've made, so that can be down to appearance. And again,

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Speaker 2: looking across the lifespan, I think there are periods of

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Speaker 2: time where those biases might be more present. So if

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Speaker 2: you're thinking about young people, you're thinking about the kind

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Speaker 2: of life stage where romantic attachments are super important, thinking

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Speaker 2: about the school dynamics and you know, the groups of

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Speaker 2: it's not always boys and girls necessarily, but just to

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Speaker 2: use a bit of a stereotype there, and attraction to

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Speaker 2: the opposite sex, and of course there are obviously also

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Speaker 2: like evolution is working for us at all times in

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Speaker 2: terms of wanting to be attractive to the opposite sex

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Speaker 2: because we're programmed to mate, obviously, but I think what happens,

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Speaker 2: that's a natural process that we're not really able to

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Speaker 2: untangle that much or think about, because society has taken

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Speaker 2: over and told us what attractiveness is. It's not evolution really,

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Speaker 2: that's told us that society. You know, I say society,

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Speaker 2: I mean like corporations that are trying to sell us products. Really,

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Speaker 2: when it comes down to it, have told us, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is acceptable, whether it's like this hair color is

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Speaker 2: better than that hair color, this eye color is more attractive,

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Speaker 2: this body shape, this body height, this body type. That's

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Speaker 2: all kind of been manipulated over time, and it's changed

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Speaker 2: over the years. You can go back one hundred years

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Speaker 2: and look at what was so called sexually attractive, you know,

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Speaker 2: back in one hundred years ago, and it's completely different

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Speaker 2: to what it is now. So we know it's not

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Speaker 2: some natural evolutionary things. It's what we're being kind of

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Speaker 2: told and how we're being shaped by big kind of

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Speaker 2: the powers that be. But I think knowing that that

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Speaker 2: ultimately means that we do have bi is there and

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Speaker 2: then actively shifting to work more in ligne with our

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Speaker 2: values and less with our biases in terms of how

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Speaker 2: we're treating other people. So yeah, this is probably most

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Speaker 2: prominent in those younger years. I think as we get older,

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Speaker 2: we do become a bit more.

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Speaker 3: Aware, and then.

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Speaker 2: I think the attractiveness, you know, like you say, it's

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Speaker 2: not about oh, I don't care about what I look like.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be or feel attractive. Some people

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Speaker 2: can live like that and that's great, and that's great

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Speaker 2: for them.

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Speaker 3: It's it is individualized.

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Speaker 2: But I think in terms outside of a romantic relationship,

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Speaker 2: where like physical attractiveness seems to be way more important

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Speaker 2: at least in that early kind of stage of a

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Speaker 2: romantic partnership for me. I think if you ask most

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Speaker 2: people in fact, I don't know ninety nine point nine

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Speaker 2: nine nine percent of people how important is someone's appearance

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Speaker 2: informing a relationship with them outside of a romantic relationship,

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Speaker 2: And most people would say it's not at all, you know,

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Speaker 2: in terms of who my friends are, who my family is,

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Speaker 2: I know, we can't choose that, but who we choose

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Speaker 2: to actually spend our time with. And this is some

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Speaker 2: of the work that I do. With people who do

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Speaker 2: have very high, you know, concerns and issues with body image,

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Speaker 2: we start with looking at, you know, how are you

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Speaker 2: judging yourself?

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Speaker 3: How are you judging your own self worth?

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Speaker 2: And with people with eating disorders, we can kind of

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Speaker 2: create a pie chart and you slice up all the

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Speaker 2: things that give you your kind of worth. The majority of

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Speaker 2: it is what my shape is, what my weight is,

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Speaker 2: and my ability to control those things. So we look

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Speaker 2: at that and we say, okay, well that makes sense

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Speaker 2: because who you are with a needing disorder seeking therapy,

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Speaker 2: and there's reasons that that's happened to you.

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Speaker 3: But here we are.

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Speaker 2: We've got kind of a you know, seventy five percent

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Speaker 2: plus importance of shape, weight and the ability to control

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Speaker 2: them in your self worth.

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Speaker 3: And that's different, by the way, too.

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Speaker 2: That's what separates someone with a clinical level problem to

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Speaker 2: someone with say, body dissatisfaction, which I think we can

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Speaker 2: all say most of us have experienced body dissatisfaction in our.

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Speaker 3: Lives to varying degrees.

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Speaker 2: But the difference between so called normal body dissatisfaction I'm

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Speaker 2: using air quotes in normal body dissatisfaction to say someone

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Speaker 2: with severe body image concerned or an eating disorder is

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Speaker 2: the importance on the self worth. So many many more

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Speaker 2: of us can say, yeah, okay, I don't like insert

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Speaker 2: body part here. I wish that looked a bit different.

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Speaker 2: I wish this was a bit different. But I know

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Speaker 2: I'm a good person. I know that I have integrity.

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Speaker 2: I know I appreciate my own values, and I know

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Speaker 2: that my worth isn't based on that. However, I'm still

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Speaker 2: a bit, you know, unhappy with these things.

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Speaker 3: Someone with an.

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Speaker 2: Eating disorder or very significant concerns actually put, I don't

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Speaker 2: like this, and that makes me a bad person therefore,

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Speaker 2: and that makes me not worthy.

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Speaker 3: So the attachment to that self esteem.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, we look at that pie chart, and we

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Speaker 2: look at you know, okay, and then we ask okay, well,

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Speaker 2: let's just think about kind of attractiveness generally, and attractiveness

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean physical, it just means your attractiveness. You know,

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Speaker 2: how attractive you are to others or how attractive people

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Speaker 2: are to you in terms of wanting to spend quality

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Speaker 2: time with people and what's important to you in other people.

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Speaker 2: And if we look at what most people say is

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Speaker 2: important to them, physical appearance becomes usually.

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Speaker 3: This tiny, tiny slice, if existent at all.

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Speaker 2: And what goes in its place in terms of importance

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Speaker 2: and attractiveness is personality qualities we've talked about so and

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Speaker 2: these are going unique to us, but some people really

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Speaker 2: value humor, kindness, pairing, ambitious, driven, and all of these

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Speaker 2: qualities in terms of who we want to spend our

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Speaker 2: valuable time with and who we want to connect with

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Speaker 2: day to day, week by week, month by month. And

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Speaker 2: then we look at those two things, and it's a

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Speaker 2: really helpful exercise because if you're judging other people in

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Speaker 2: a very different way to how you're judging yourself, that's

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Speaker 2: a problem and you shouldn't be. And actually, if you

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Speaker 2: want to work on your own body image or your

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Speaker 2: own self worth, then a really good starting point is

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Speaker 2: to ask yourself, Well, how do I judge others? How

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Speaker 2: do I value other people? And who in my life

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Speaker 2: is the most valuable to me and why? And can

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Speaker 2: I actually apply those same criteria to myself in terms

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Speaker 2: of how I'm judging myself, Because often when we're feeling

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Speaker 2: unhappy with ourselves.

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Speaker 3: We've really.

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Speaker 2: Gone off course with our own our own system for judgment,

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Speaker 2: and we're tending to judge ourselves very critically, very harshly

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Speaker 2: on things that aren't very good to judge yourselves on,

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Speaker 2: like our appearance. For others, it's a different story, and

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Speaker 2: we would never hold those people to the same standard

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Speaker 2: in terms of assessing whether they were worth our time

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Speaker 2: and energy. So that's something that I like people to

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Speaker 2: think about and take away from, is how are you

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Speaker 2: judging others?

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Speaker 3: Is it different to how you judge yourself? And why?

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Speaker 3: And if it is, can you close.

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Speaker 2: That gap and actually judge yourself as if as you

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Speaker 2: do others, which is maybe more about like your humor

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Speaker 2: your kindness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank god, there's humor and kindness. It's all I got. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's I'm with you. I agree. I agree. However, it's

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Speaker 1: like people still go out and the prettiest get the

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Speaker 1: most attention. That's the hard thing. And so then the

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Speaker 1: pretty girl learns or the pretty boy or or the

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Speaker 1: or other. You know, it's like, yeah, I agree with you,

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Speaker 1: and it's like it's all like I've worked obviously as

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Speaker 1: an exercise scientist. I've worked with thousands of people with

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Speaker 1: body image issues, eating disorders, interesting relationships with food, terrible

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Speaker 1: self esteem, great self esteem, and some of the most

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Speaker 1: attractive people. If I can say that men and women

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Speaker 1: that I've worked with are that most insecure because they

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Speaker 1: get their entire sense of self from almost from you know.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, let's I want to ask you a few

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Speaker 1: specific things just that's help all. That's great, by the way,

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Speaker 1: but helpful maybe for some of our listeners who are like,

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Speaker 1: do I have an eating disorder or do I have

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Speaker 1: eating issues? Or do I have disordered eating? Can you

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Speaker 1: just kind of separate those a little bit for me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 2: Disordered eating and eating disorders are kind of closely linked.

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Speaker 3: Disordered eating and a pattern of.

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Speaker 2: Behaviors and thoughts related to either food or body image

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Speaker 2: or kind of control over these things. Exercise is also

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Speaker 2: a behavior that can be kind of disordered in this area,

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Speaker 2: and eating disorders are when disordered eating has become so

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Speaker 2: extreme that it meets certain criteria in a kind of

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Speaker 2: diagnostic manual. So, for instance, if some of the if

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Speaker 2: some of those behaviors are happening a certain amount of

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Speaker 2: times per week and have been going on for at

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Speaker 2: least x amount of months, you would be given as

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Speaker 2: eating disorder. The other crucial thing is that the disorder

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Speaker 2: part in any disorder, but also true for eating disorders,

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Speaker 2: it has to have a negative impact on your life,

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Speaker 2: on your quality of life and you're functioning for anything

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Speaker 2: to be a disorder.

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Speaker 3: And I would argue that disordered.

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Speaker 2: Eating does have an impact because just the way that

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Speaker 2: the brain in the body responds when it's not getting

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Speaker 2: enough nutrition.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you're aware of this from your own work.

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Speaker 2: And the kind of obsessiveness and the anxiety and the

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Speaker 2: need for control that can come from disordered eating, but

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Speaker 2: there might not be as perceived, as you know, as

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Speaker 2: big a problem with some of disordered eating. But disordered

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Speaker 2: eating can predate an eating disorder. So left unchecked, and

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Speaker 2: if anyone's listening, I think my biggest advice if it's

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Speaker 2: I know we're in Australia at the moment, so I

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Speaker 2: would talk about the Butterfly Foundation. They have a free

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Speaker 2: help line and you can if you're worried for yourself

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Speaker 2: or for someone else, or just interested in resources. They

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Speaker 2: have a website around the globe. You know, the UK

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Speaker 2: has BEAT, that's their charity. I'm sure America has. Every

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Speaker 2: country should have ideally a national charity for NGL, and

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Speaker 2: those ones are good even if you're not in the country,

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Speaker 2: just to get some advice and resources and information in

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Speaker 2: terms of.

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Speaker 3: How to seek help, where to seek help if.

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Speaker 2: You do want to explore more what's going on for you.

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Speaker 1: I had this kind of awakening doc when I was

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Speaker 1: I started working in gyms when I was eighteen, and

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Speaker 1: just as a gym instructor, I knew not much and

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Speaker 1: I didn't do my first degree till a decade later.

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Speaker 1: But and I remember talking to people like writing programs.

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Speaker 1: I was a bodybuilder, so I was always training, and

436
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: I started training hard when I was fourteen, and so

437
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: by the time I was twenty, I'd already been working

438
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: in gyms for two years and I had six year

439
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: background in training, and so I understood reasonably well right,

440
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: but how to train and how to write a program

441
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: and how to teach someone a squad or a deadlift

442
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: or whatever, or a chin up, or or how to

443
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: teach someone to whatever run or skip poor, not brilliantly

444
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: but okay. But I think by the time I was

445
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,479
Speaker 1: early twenties and I'd been writing fitness programs and strength

446
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: programs and flexibility programs and high performance programs for athletes

447
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: and teams and doing all of that, it dawned on

448
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: me that getting in shape, whatever that means, fit a stronger, leaner,

449
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: different body composition, was primarily about psychology and emotion and

450
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: a little bit about physiology, and it's almost like changing

451
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: your body. And I have this revelation right which probably

452
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: other people had way before me. But my revelation was, Oh,

453
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: I know about anatomy in physiology and biomechanics and nutrition

454
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: and progressive overload and adaptation, but I don't know about humans.

455
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, and how come this guy with not

456
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: much potential gets amazing outcomes and that guy with more

457
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: potential gets a worse outcome? And how come that girl

458
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: who was really inspired stopped after three weeks and that

459
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: lady who was really like a bit ambivalent, she's stuck

460
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: with it? For two, Like, it's such an emotional and

461
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: it like changing your body whatever that means. We're not

462
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: the talking necessarily about getting skinny or losing weight or

463
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: whatever it is, but just changing you know, to improve

464
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: functional strength or speed or fitness or cardio escular health

465
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: or reduce pain. But it's such a psychological and an

466
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: emotional journey and almost like the bodies just the consequence.

467
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 3: Right.

468
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 2: Absolutely, That's how I see it, and that's how we

469
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: try and kind of teach it in education. And I've

470
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 2: done some education with gyms and schools and anywhere where

471
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: you know, people are more vulnerable to these problems. And

472
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: I think the discourse I was talking about this with

473
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: a couple of colleagues the other day, the discourse is

474
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: changing a little bit. Like even from like the eighties

475
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 2: and nineties, you know, where it was all about being

476
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 2: skinny and being thin, and it's we're talking a bit

477
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: more about health now again I'm using air quotes. We're

478
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 2: very much talking about health and health and health goals,

479
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 2: which is good on the one hand, because it should

480
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 2: really be about our health goals. It's like living well,

481
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: living without disease or disability for longer, so that you

482
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: can live the life that you want to live. And

483
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: if you pursue health goals, then your body will do

484
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: what it does given your genetic makeup when those health

485
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: goals are achieved. So if you pursue, you know, a

486
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 2: cardiovascular goal, to get your blood pumping around your body

487
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 2: stronger so that you can just walk upstairs, you know

488
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: better and for longer, so that you can go to

489
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: the National Park and climb the steps to the top

490
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 2: of the hill so you can take in those beautiful views.

491
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 3: That might be a cardiovascular goal.

492
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 2: Now you achieve that goal and your body changes because

493
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: of that. You know, it might be weight increase or decrease.

494
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: Your muscle composition might change as a result of that,

495
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: but it's a symptom and not you know, with weight anyway,

496
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 2: My belief is that weight should never really be a goal.

497
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: It should be a symptom because our these do all

498
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: sorts of different things in terms of wait and it's

499
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: very very nuanced.

500
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 3: It's not just about the number on the scale.

501
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: Yes, And I'm curious to know in your career how

502
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: much of that it's like the need for you know,

503
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: the psychological understanding in terms of either behavior change or

504
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: in the health and fitness space. Was that or is

505
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: that talked about? Have you seen a change there or

506
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: has it always been part of the kind of educational.

507
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: Programs you know, it's a really that is a really

508
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: smart question. So there's definitely been a shift. I don't

509
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: want to get in trouble, right, but I think a

510
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: lot of people who work in especially in the fitness industry,

511
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: have got just as many psychological and emotional and eating

512
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: issues and body issues as the general public, maybe more.

513
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: I definitely was that I wouldn't say I have no issues.

514
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: Now I definitely do. But but I think so you've

515
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: got people who which is okay because like a lot

516
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: of people who were work in the addiction space, we're addicts.

517
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: They make some of the best counselors. So like for me,

518
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: I can speak from a psychology point of view as

519
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: a researcher and an excise physiology point of view, but

520
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: I also can speak experientially and I talk all the

521
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: time about my relationship with food, which has been just

522
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: like a tumultuous love affair. Right. But I think now

523
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: specific to your question, people are starting to understand the

524
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: nuance of what it is to help someone create a healthier,

525
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: more functional body in a healthy, sustainable way from a physiological, clinical, psychological,

526
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: even sociological and emotional perspective, because you know, everybody's lost weight,

527
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: but almost everybody who lost it regained it.

528
00:29:58,960 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 5: Right.

529
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: The the thing is not do you want to get

530
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: fit and strong? The thing is do you want to

531
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: change your thinking and habits and behavior and operating system

532
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: so that from a functional and a physical and a

533
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: behavioral perspective, you've got a new normal. So when people

534
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: say to me, how do you find the motivation to

535
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: lift weights every day? The answer is I don't because

536
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: it's hardwired into my normal operating system. It's just, you know,

537
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: it's like I've never had alcohol, I've never had booze,

538
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: I've never been drunk, i've never been high, I've never

539
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: smoked cigarettes. And I don't say that sound good. That's

540
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: just what I've not done. So it requires no discipline

541
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: or self control for me to not have a beer

542
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: on a Saturday. So I talk to people about this

543
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: idea of let's create a new normal and then you

544
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: don't need to find willpower and discipline and self control

545
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: and grits and inspiration because it's like nobody has to

546
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: get pumped up to clean their teeth, because it's just

547
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: what they do on autopilot. So I talk about this

548
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: idea of how do we take those sometimes when I'm

549
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: motivated behaviors, the ones that align with who and how

550
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: I want to be, and turn those into all the

551
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: time hardwired of course that's a metaphor, but almost not

552
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: hardwired habits, you know, and when something's a habit, now

553
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: this is me just being me, so, but I think

554
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: there's been a you know, people have had to understand

555
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: if it was only about energy in and out and

556
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: lifting weights and joining a gym, well we would have

557
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: cured this problem a long time ago, and we haven't.

558
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's much more about the psychological.

559
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: I mean, as I was when I was leaving the UK.

560
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: There's a big campaign in the National Health Service over

561
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: there and it was called no health without mental health,

562
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: and it was just an agnowledgement that, yeah, it isn't

563
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: such a thing as health and mental health because we're

564
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: not brains and bodies separately in that age duality, you know,

565
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: conversation around is the mindsetarate from the body, and kind of.

566
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: We know that you can't.

567
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: Just separate those two things out and just look at

568
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: physical things and ignore the mental and vice versa, because

569
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: how we think and feel and all of those things

570
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: impact what our bodies do and also how we approach

571
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: making changes to you know, like you said, habits, if

572
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: it's around like physical exercise and things like that, all.

573
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 3: Kind of starts in the brain.

574
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: And then when our bodies are changing, then that kind

575
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: of the feedback loop goes back to our brains, and

576
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: our brains can start responding a bit differently. And we know,

577
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: for example, the links between like exercise and mood, So

578
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: if you exercise, people report improve moods, so there's a

579
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: clear link.

580
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 3: So I think, like an education and I get it.

581
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: I get that, you know, we are also humans with

582
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: brains that like shortcuts and conserving energy and not having

583
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: to do the hard work. And the way that the

584
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: whole health system has been set up, and then subsequently,

585
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: like the education system, Yes, you go to you know,

586
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: you do an exercise physiology degree or a psychology degree,

587
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: or you're become a medical doctor, and everything's kind of

588
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 2: in these silos. And I think we need to get

589
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: a bit better at looking at that kind of more

590
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: holistic view because things do impact each other in the

591
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: space of kind of health and health and wellbeing as well.

592
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's the really one of the things that

593
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: I'm also just noticing as a kind of I mean,

594
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: I'm not really on social media so much just through

595
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: personal choice, but something I've definitely noticed as a consumer

596
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: of you know, media, just you can't get away from it,

597
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: is that there's it's great if someone has an individual

598
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: goal to change something or to make improvements towards you know, goals,

599
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: life goals that they want to be able to live

600
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: us in a certain way. But we are getting so

601
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: many messages at the moment that we should be all

602
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: of us all.

603
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 3: The time working on something.

604
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: And this is another massive psychological problem because you know,

605
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: I talk to friends who are you know, pretty young,

606
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: healthy individuals, no disease, you know, and they're talking about, well,

607
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 2: I need to work on my sleep, and I need

608
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 2: to work on my exercise. I need to start strength training,

609
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: and I need to work on my nutrition. And we

610
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: kind of say, well, why what has a doctor told

611
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: you you need to do that? Have you had some

612
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 2: ill health recently? And it's kind of this discourse of like, no,

613
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 2: I don't know why I just feel compelled to be

614
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: working towards these goals because we're constantly, you know, there's

615
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: so much noise that we should, should, should, should, and

616
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: that actually creates psychological problems of anxiety, worrying that we're

617
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: not doing well, not feeling good enough, just being very

618
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: overwhelmed with information and losing sight of our own goals

619
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 2: and our values, and then worrying that if we don't

620
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: do it, we're going to undergo some serious consequence is

621
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 2: either now or you know, later in life. So I

622
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 2: think it's important to going on to that that this

623
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: is also a byproduct of how social media has come.

624
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 1: About comparison culture, right.

625
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: How we get it in geting our information, get our information,

626
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: and how the discourse is promoting all of these goals.

627
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 3: And it's really easy to jump on that bandwag.

628
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: And I mean, I know all this, I'm a psychologist,

629
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: and I still find myself thinking like, oh, I need

630
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: to should do that, and I should do that, and

631
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, why why am I thinking that? Some of

632
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: those back by research, But you don't want to live

633
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: a very stressed, out, overwhelmed life. So that you can live,

634
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: you know, a few years longer by working on all

635
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: these health goals you want to be able to and

636
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: you're never going to be able to tell you know,

637
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: there's no of course, there's research showing people that do

638
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 2: this maybe live longer, or people that do this have

639
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: better physical health outcomes, but this research is not We're

640
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: not able to fully apply that to ourselves because none

641
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: of us can get to the end of our life

642
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: and say this is exactly these choices that led me

643
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: to where I am now. And I'm not saying that

644
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be focused on our health.

645
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 4: Of course, good health allows you to live like a

646
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 4: better quality of life, but quality of life is hugely

647
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 4: impaired when we start becoming anxious, preoccupied, overwhelmed, fearful, regretful,

648
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 4: worried about what.

649
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 2: We're doing and just how much we're doing. And I

650
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: think a lot of us are actually feeling quite overwhelmed.

651
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: I feel like for a lot of us, me included,

652
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: at times, no matter where we are literally or metaphorically,

653
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: it's not where we want to be, right. We're terrible

654
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: at contentment, you know. It's like, my life's good, my

655
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: body's good, I've got a good job, people love me,

656
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: I've got healthy relationships, I can walk, I can turn

657
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: on and I tap. There's fresh water, I can push

658
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: a button, there's air conditioning. I live in a safe place.

659
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 1: My life is amazing. I'm so grateful. I'm so happy.

660
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: It's almost like that's giving up. Oh no, dude, you've

661
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: got to have goals. You've got to grind, you got

662
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: to hustle, you've got to be winning, you've got to

663
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: be moving the needle. It's like, yeah, I don't think so.

664
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: Like maybe I don't think there's anything wrong with grinding,

665
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: hustling and moving the needle. But I also think like

666
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: I tell people, excuse my language, but I tell them

667
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 1: to have fuck all days. I go have a fuck

668
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: all day where you do fuck all, achieve fuck all

669
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: like and you don't and it's great and you love

670
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: your fuck all day. It doesn't have to be what

671
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: am I achieving doing being creating? No, Because and the

672
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 1: other thing is if you turn down like the volume

673
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: a bit and you just step back from people who

674
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: are constantly hustling and grinding, I don't think the overwhelming

675
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: kind of state of those people is happiness.

676
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: And that's important because we can lose sight of our goals, Like,

677
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: is the goal to be happy because and what's realistic

678
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: within that? Because happiness is an emotion and all emotions

679
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: are temporary. So if we're pursuing a goal to be happy,

680
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: how happy do we want to be? Do we want

681
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 2: to feel moderately happy at least three times a week?

682
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 2: Do we want to feel super happy at least once

683
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 2: a week. We can't really have a goal to feel

684
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 2: happy all of the time because that's not realistic and

685
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: we will constantly feel like we're not achieving that goal,

686
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: which will also create negative emotion and send us off

687
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: on this spiral contentment different to happiness. But is my

688
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: goal to be more content and to move less forward?

689
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: You know, like you're saying have an f all day,

690
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, once a week or once a month, or

691
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: just practicing gratitude, you know that actually does lead to

692
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: positive emotion and remembering where we've come, looking back where

693
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: we've come from, rather than always where we want to

694
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: go to. And I think it is part of the

695
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: human condition that we do want to move forward. And

696
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: once we achieve a goal, we're very good at saying, great,

697
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: what's the next goal, But the practice of.

698
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 3: Pausing and slowing down and.

699
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: Recognizing where you've come from and kind of celebrating is

700
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 2: it requires discipline, but it can be really beneficial for

701
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 2: mental health overall. And choosing your goals wisely and making

702
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: sure that they're in line with your value. So don't

703
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: just work on good sleep if you don't believe that

704
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: you have bad sleep. No one's told you that you

705
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: have a sleep problem. But just because everyone else is

706
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: working on sleep, and if you're waking up geeing.

707
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: Refreshed every morning, or you know, or even.

708
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: If you you know, if you have a small child

709
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: who wakes you up five times a night, you can't

710
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: work on your sleep for now. That's not I shouldn't

711
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 2: be a goal. You know that the time will come

712
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 2: that you might be able to get some fathers sleep.

713
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: I say this as a parent and someone who used

714
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,959
Speaker 2: to really worry about you know, all this bad sleep.

715
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: What's it doing to my brain? All I'm hearing about

716
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: is how bad it is to get sleep. But I

717
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: literally can't help it because there's a young person that

718
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: needs me in the middle of the night. So making

719
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 2: realistic goals, not having too many goals at anyone time,

720
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: because you're unlikely to be able to just have that

721
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: much energy to put into them and making sure that

722
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: goals are in line with really your values or your

723
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: phase of life. It's probably, yeah, a good way of

724
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 2: just not feelings overwhelmed or consumed with productivity and having

725
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: to move forward. And then there's some people, some amazing

726
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 2: people who take that to the extreme and do live

727
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 2: a very contented life with very minimal and don't have

728
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: these kind of Western goals of make more.

729
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 3: Money, get the promotion.

730
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: More and more, and they're able to kind of check

731
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: out and say, I'm going to go and live, you know,

732
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: in a forest and be content with the world around me,

733
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 2: which is also wonderful.

734
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 1: It's almost like we live in and I'm just talking

735
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: about generally hire not everyone, of course, but in this

736
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: mindset that we try to fix internal stuff with external solutions,

737
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: like we try to fix emotional and or psychological issues

738
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 1: with you know, in my case, bigger biceps or wider

739
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: shoulders or less body fat or another motorbike or and

740
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: I know this sounds very ridiculous and egotistical and shallow,

741
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: but that you know, for a while that was part

742
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: of my life and I wasn't the only one in

743
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: the club. You know, that whole kind of if I, oh,

744
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: I'm insecure, so if I look good, I'll be less

745
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: insecure if I you know whatever, fill in the blank.

746
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: I'm lonely, but if I'm more attractive, then I might

747
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: not be lonely or and we kind of learned these

748
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,919
Speaker 1: lessons for obviously I was going to say for better

749
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: or worse. Probably for worse, but you know, this this

750
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: very common I think human practice of trying to resolve

751
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: psychological and emotional issues with stuff, and whether that's body

752
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 1: or money, or title or brand and not there's anything wrong,

753
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: of course with money or title or brand, but I

754
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: don't think it's necessarily a solution to shitty self esteem.

755
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 3: Now, it's really not.

756
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: And it's so normal to make that pursuit because if

757
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: you're unhappy with something, we try and solve that problem,

758
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 2: which is actually a great thing that.

759
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: That's what we're driven to.

760
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: We're trying to move away from pain and the messages

761
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: and the lessons we've had probably in terms of how

762
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: to do that sends us down a bit of a

763
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: tricky road, you know. And then this comes back to

764
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 2: kind of internal biases. We're told from a very young age,

765
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: this will make you happy, this will make you happy.

766
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: The motorbike will make you happy, This will make you

767
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 2: more attractive, this will make you feel better. So when

768
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: we don't know what to do, of course we're going

769
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: to use all of that in terms of where we

770
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 2: want to go. But really is that kind of inner work,

771
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 2: And as a therapist, this is mainly what I help

772
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: people do is move more inward, which is very hard

773
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: to do because there's often quite.

774
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 3: A lot of stuff there and that stuff might.

775
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 2: You know, go back a very long time, and it

776
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: might be very serious stuff that's kind of unresolved, or

777
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: it might be stuff that's actually quite hard to pin down.

778
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: You know, but I had a great childhood and I

779
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: haven't had any significant trauma, But why am I not

780
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: feeling you know, content or happy with myself all my life?

781
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: Or it could be that there has been very serious

782
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: and significant things happen that undoubtedly have led to not

783
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: feeling you know, good about oneself.

784
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: So doing that inner work.

785
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 2: Is the harder route, it's the more painful route, which

786
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: is why a lot of us avoid it.

787
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 3: It takes a lot of time and energy.

788
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: It usually requires a good person, whether it's a therapist,

789
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: a trained professional, or someone who's very trusting and able

790
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: to kind of contain a safe space while you do

791
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 2: that work, and.

792
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: It can really take a long time.

793
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 2: It can take years of self growth and self reflection

794
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: and practicing different things and understanding the why.

795
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 3: Before you see any real change.

796
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: And that's not as pretty or as shiny as you

797
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: know by this now and you'll be all right.

798
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, I know there's no three step plan

799
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: or any number of step plan. I know that. But

800
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: for people who are listening and there they go, yeah,

801
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: I've got eating issues, or I've got disordered eating or

802
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: an eating disorder, or I've got you know, I look

803
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: pretty good, but I simultaneously hate everyone tells me I

804
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: look good. But I don't think I look good. I

805
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: think I look shit. I think I'm to this or

806
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: too little that. Where do we start, like, and again,

807
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: I guess it's a different for different people, but this

808
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 1: is your area of expertise.

809
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: We break it down into steps absolutely to The first

810
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: step is recognizing it and kind of admitting that there

811
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: is a problem. Because with these sorts of issues, we

812
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 2: can kind of also think it's quite common for people

813
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: to minimize it.

814
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 3: It's not that bad.

815
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 2: Everyone hates how they look, everyone else is on a diet.

816
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: You know it's not much of a problem, but really

817
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: acknowledging it to yourself, Okay, this isn't how I want

818
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 2: to live. I want to make a change, and then

819
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 2: seeking help would be the next step. So if you

820
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: have a trusted person in your life that you could

821
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: just share those concerns that can help you on that

822
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: journey reaching out to a GP in the first instance. Again,

823
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 2: these helplines national eating disorder, disordered eating, body image Charities,

824
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 2: they will always have pages of resources helplines.

825
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 3: You can call.

826
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,439
Speaker 2: Different contacts for different professionals, but everyone should be able

827
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: to access a GP, whether it's telehealth or you know,

828
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: in person. But a general practitioner with those concerns then

829
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 2: should be able to do some follow up questions and

830
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: some screening. There are amazing psychological therapies that are the

831
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: best we've got. That is the first line evidence based treatment.

832
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: And the success rates kind of range from very very

833
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: high for maybe perhaps more recent slightly less severe concerns,

834
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: and if you know a problem has been very very

835
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: long standing and is very very severe, then the response

836
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 2: rates to the treatment are a bit lower. Say that

837
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 2: kind of two thirds of people get better, which is

838
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: still better.

839
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 3: Then it's the best that we've got.

840
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: And often when people start a journey of kind of

841
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: recovery from eating issues again, it is like a long

842
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 2: journey with maybe a few different it looks different at

843
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 2: different stages. Maybe there's doing it on your own for it,

844
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: maybe they're seeking help from a therapist or getting more

845
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: intensive support, and then there's periods of kind of maintaining

846
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: those changes and then taking the next step maybe a

847
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: year or two later. It can really look like that,

848
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: but it's a really really worthwhile journey obviously because then

849
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 2: you come kind of fully recovered in a new life

850
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: with all these new insights. But definitely speaking enlisting any

851
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: support that you have in your social or family kind

852
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: of circles, just having that person there to help seeking

853
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 2: a GP, and the GP should then be the stop

854
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 2: gap in terms of screening and then identifying the correct

855
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: services for you. And then there are those charities and

856
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: services that are specifically designed for people with those concerns

857
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: that can offer help and guidance and resources, and even

858
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 2: if it's for a loved one, you know, the lots

859
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 2: of resources for care as and parents. If you're noticing

860
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: in your children or your friend or someone that you know.

861
00:47:58,480 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 3: They can also for advice.

862
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 5: Perfect.

863
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: Hey, so doctor Catherine's website is doctorcatpsych dot com dot au.

864
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: Did I get that right, doctorcatpsych dot com dot au.

865
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 1: She's got a blog. I read some of her posts

866
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: or her blog posts. Very good, Go and have a

867
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 1: look at those. So doctor cat psych dot com dot

868
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: au forward slash blog. But you'll find it when you

869
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: go to the site. Anyway, do you want to steer

870
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: my audience towards anything else.

871
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: Doc, I also do have an Instagram account which is

872
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 2: doctor cat Psych and or want to make kind of

873
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 2: educational videos about psychology and therapy and tips and chicks

874
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: and things like that if people are interested.

875
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: My last question before we go is, so I spoke

876
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: before about you know, when I was a young trainer

877
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,479
Speaker 1: and I had this revelation that it's not actually about

878
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: like I kind of got it wrong. I thought it

879
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: was all about the body, and then I went, oh,

880
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: it's not all about the body. Is there any not

881
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: necessarily anything that you wrong? Maybe you got something wrong

882
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: or you just had a light bulb where you went,

883
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: oh this is new. This is a revelation for me

884
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: in your journey with you know, eating disorders and so on,

885
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: did you have a light bulb moment where you realize

886
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: something that you previously didn't think.

887
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a good question.

888
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: I mean as a career as a therapist, there are

889
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: so many light pulments.

890
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 3: So two come to mind.

891
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 2: One is definitely related to work with eating disorders.

892
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 3: When I was a bit more junior.

893
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: And starting out in the field, I think I had

894
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 2: the same you know, stereotypes and stigmas towards people with

895
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 2: eating disorders as the general public, you know, just from

896
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 2: what I've seen and how they're presented in the media.

897
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 2: So just thinking it was all about the food, you know,

898
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: people just don't want to eat, and why don't they

899
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 2: want to eat? It's certain foods and they just need

900
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: to learn about different foods and that they're okay and

901
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: then they will just eat.

902
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: But of course, actually it's not about the food.

903
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 2: I mean, the food is kind of the symptom, and yes,

904
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 2: there is a lot about the food that you have

905
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: to work through, but really, you know, things like that.

906
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: Same with other mental health problems. It's often like addictions

907
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: and things, it's not about the substance. It's not about

908
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: the thing on the surface, it's actually.

909
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 3: That's the symptom.

910
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 2: And I think really with eating disorders and body image concerns,

911
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 2: now what I've learned is there was a problem. It

912
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 2: might might be a past problem, so there wasn't once

913
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 2: a problem, or potentially that problem is still there and

914
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 2: the eating disorder kind of developed as a solution to

915
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 2: that problem, but now it's become a problem in its

916
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: own right. So we we first have to treat the

917
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: eating disorder because it's kind of taken over. You can't

918
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 2: go straight back into trying to understand the underlying problem. Well,

919
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: there's an eating disorder going on, because they have how

920
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 2: eating sort of affect the body, in the brain, and

921
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 2: just someone's kind of overall psychology. So you do have

922
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: to kind of fix a problem that was originally a

923
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,879
Speaker 2: solution someone's best to go, you know, that's not their fold.

924
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: It was the best goal of trying to fix a

925
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: different problem. And then once the eating disorder has kind

926
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: of resolved, then you can start working on what the

927
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 2: other problem was and either looking at it in a

928
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: different way or healing from it in a different way

929
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 2: because it's a past problem, or if it's still a

930
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,959
Speaker 2: current problem, just solving it in a different way that's

931
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: much more healthy and in line with people's personal goals

932
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 2: and values.

933
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 5: Wow, that's very insightful. That's your You should do this

934
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 5: for a job. You're quite good at it. Thank yeaf

935
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 5: Hey doctor Catherine, thank you so much. We will say

936
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 5: goodbye off here, but.

937
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: For the minute. Thanks for being on the new project.

938
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you my pleasure.

939
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me