WEBVTT - How hate speech blew up the Coalition

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<v Speaker 1>It was a twist no one saw coming. Labour's hate

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<v Speaker 1>speech laws have blown up the coalition.

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<v Speaker 2>I understand if you do the crime, you have to

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<v Speaker 2>take the time, and if it is so requested, I

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<v Speaker 2>will be stepping down.

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<v Speaker 3>From Shadow Cabinet.

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<v Speaker 1>It started with three senior Nationals resigning from the opposition

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<v Speaker 1>front bench after defying Shadow Cabinet and voting against the

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<v Speaker 1>government's hate speech laws.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm very aware of the conventions of Parliament, are.

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<v Speaker 3>Daring Susan Ladasaki.

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<v Speaker 1>Then after a late night emergency meeting, the entire Nationals

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<v Speaker 1>front bench followed suit, resigning their positions in solidarity. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today Press

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<v Speaker 1>Gallery journalist Karen Middleton on how Labor got their laws passed,

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<v Speaker 1>imploding the coalition along the way. It's Thursday in January

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two. Karen, thanks for joining me. After an extraordinary

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<v Speaker 1>forty eight hours, we've seen a deepening public split in

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<v Speaker 1>the coalition, with the Nationals breaking rank with their Liberal

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<v Speaker 1>partners over Albanesi's hate crime laws, leading to resignations. How

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<v Speaker 1>did this all play out?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we saw the parliament recalled and on Sunday night,

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<v Speaker 2>the Shadow Ministry met and determined a position, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was the members of the Shadow Cabinet, who were both

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<v Speaker 2>Liberals and Nationals. They got an agreed position on the

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<v Speaker 2>hate crimes dimensions. The Nationals were going their own way

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<v Speaker 2>on firearms laws, but they were all supposed to vote

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<v Speaker 2>the same way on hate crimes. However, when it got

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<v Speaker 2>into the Parliament, that's not what happened.

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<v Speaker 4>And unfortunately, despite the many positive elements of this legislation,

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<v Speaker 4>the government has not been able to convince my party room,

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<v Speaker 4>the National Party, that adequate safeguards are in place for

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<v Speaker 4>the proposer take crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>And in fact Susan Lee has made the point in

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<v Speaker 2>the statement she issued that there were three different positions

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<v Speaker 2>from the Nationals across the two houses of Parliament. One

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<v Speaker 2>voted for it, some voted no, and some abstained. So

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<v Speaker 2>already we started to see things splintering. But where it

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<v Speaker 2>got really untidy for the Nationals is that while they

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<v Speaker 2>are allowed to cross the floor if they are back

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<v Speaker 2>benches within the coalition, unlike in labor where they would

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<v Speaker 2>be expelled for crossing the floor, if you are a

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<v Speaker 2>front bencher you cannot do that. You must adhere to

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<v Speaker 2>the position that the Shadow Cabinet has adopted. So we

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<v Speaker 2>saw three members of the Nationals in the Senate who

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<v Speaker 2>were front benches decide to vote in opposition to their

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<v Speaker 2>own party's position, and they are the ones who've now

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<v Speaker 2>had to resign.

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<v Speaker 3>They will be out of the Shadow Cabinet.

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<v Speaker 2>They will still serve in other positions, Parliamentary committee positions

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<v Speaker 2>and the like, and they will still obviously be in

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<v Speaker 2>the Senate, but they will no longer be front benches

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<v Speaker 2>as a result of that decision. They say they acted

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<v Speaker 2>on their conscience that they felt they couldn't endorse the

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<v Speaker 2>position that had been agreed, even though Susan Lee says

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<v Speaker 2>that these issues weren't especially raised during the Shadow Cabinet meeting,

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<v Speaker 2>and they've taken that course.

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<v Speaker 1>As you said, when they crossed the floor, they knew

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<v Speaker 1>they were breaking the rules. But what was it specifically

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<v Speaker 1>that they felt that this was worth quitting over.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's interesting, it's not entirely clear.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things they have said is that they

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<v Speaker 2>tried to amend the legislation to send it off to

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<v Speaker 2>a committee to get longer scrutiny of it, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was rejected. So that's the thing that they've pointed to

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<v Speaker 2>most directly, but that doesn't seem to be all of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course we know the Nationals are under pressure

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<v Speaker 2>from One Nation. They've lost Barnaby Joyce, they're former leader,

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<v Speaker 2>former deputy prime minister to one nation. One Nation is

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<v Speaker 2>polling very strongly, and so I think there are concerns

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<v Speaker 2>within the Nationals that they want to distinguish themselves from

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<v Speaker 2>the Liberal Party and not lose ground on the conservative

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<v Speaker 2>side to another party.

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<v Speaker 1>And then yesterday David Little Proud wrote to Susan Lee

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<v Speaker 1>warning that if she let the Nets walk that the

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<v Speaker 1>rest would go, which is what we've now seen. So

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<v Speaker 1>did we make the right call?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't think she had any choice, Nicole.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, she couldn't go against what the coalition usually demands,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is solidarity among the shadow ministry, that.

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<v Speaker 3>Is the rule.

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<v Speaker 2>If she hadn't required them to resign, she would look

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<v Speaker 2>weak and that would destroy her leadership. And her leadership

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<v Speaker 2>may well be destroyed now anyway as a result of this.

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<v Speaker 2>But David Little Powder was staring her down with that

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<v Speaker 2>letter that emerged last.

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<v Speaker 3>Night, and she has.

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<v Speaker 2>Called his bluff and they've walked out, and so we're

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<v Speaker 2>back to where we were last year with the Nationals.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems kind of out of the coalition, not officially yet,

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<v Speaker 2>but you've got to think that's a matter of time.

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<v Speaker 1>So when all of this happened, Karen, what did you think.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the word that came to mind was debarcle.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, the government has been under pressure,

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<v Speaker 2>the Labor government for its handling of the December fourteen

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<v Speaker 2>terrorist attack at Bondai. The Coalition has forced the government's

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<v Speaker 2>hand and making changes to its legislation.

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<v Speaker 3>And they've just gone and blown themselves up.

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<v Speaker 2>And politically speaking, that seems completely idiotic and given the

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<v Speaker 2>government the ability to claim a victory at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the parliamentary sitting. So it's up to the coalition

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<v Speaker 2>to explain how this is anything positive because it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>look like that to me.

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<v Speaker 1>So without the Nats on the front bench, are there

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<v Speaker 1>even enough Liberals to fill all the roles?

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<v Speaker 3>Well barely.

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<v Speaker 2>I know there've been jokes about, you know, filling a

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<v Speaker 2>minibus and that sort of thing since the federal election,

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<v Speaker 2>but now, I mean it's not so much of a joke.

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<v Speaker 3>Really, is it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there are enough, but it isn't a coalition if

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<v Speaker 2>the Nationals aren't represented on the front bench. And late

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<v Speaker 2>last night, Susan Lee put out a statement saying there

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<v Speaker 2>was no need for the Nationals to resign on mass

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<v Speaker 2>and that she's basically going to keep their positions open

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<v Speaker 2>and try to hold the coalition together. She said the

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<v Speaker 2>Liberal Party supports the coalition arrangements because they delivered the

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<v Speaker 2>most effective.

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<v Speaker 3>Political alliance for good government.

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<v Speaker 2>And she noted that David little Prowd's letter to her

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<v Speaker 2>didn't talk about dissolving the coalition, so she's trying to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid that happening.

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<v Speaker 1>So how likely is it that Susan Lee will keep

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<v Speaker 1>her job after this?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's very hard to see her continuing as

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<v Speaker 2>things are, but there has to be a challenger. There

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<v Speaker 2>has to be a challenger who can garner enough numbers

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<v Speaker 2>in the Liberal Party. Bearing in mind the Nationals don't

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<v Speaker 2>get a vote on the Liberal Party leadership to secure

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<v Speaker 2>the leadership. Those who had designs on the leadership had

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<v Speaker 2>indicated last year that they they weren't ready in wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to wait. So it's a bit hard to know how

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<v Speaker 2>it all goes, whether they can pull themselves back together

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<v Speaker 2>and plow on again. Is anyone's guess, but things can't

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<v Speaker 2>continue the way they are. There has to be some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of reckoning for all of this, I think, because

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<v Speaker 2>clearly there's unrest within the Nationals, within the Liberals, within

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<v Speaker 2>the Coalition as a whole, and that's not how you

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<v Speaker 2>hold a government to account.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, what's actually in these laws, Karen, can you

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<v Speaker 1>explain for us in some more detail how these new

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<v Speaker 1>laws will work well?

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<v Speaker 2>The focus of the new laws are on a few

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<v Speaker 2>different things. There is now a designation power for the

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<v Speaker 2>Home Affairs Minister. He can nominate, designate proscribe organizations that

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<v Speaker 2>are seen to be engaging in hate speech.

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<v Speaker 3>He can only do that if the.

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<v Speaker 2>Domestics FY Agency ASO has had the groups on their radar,

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<v Speaker 2>has gave it evidence that they have been doing these things,

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<v Speaker 2>and then made a report to the government.

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<v Speaker 3>And now the.

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<v Speaker 2>Opposition has also required that the Opposition leader be consulted

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<v Speaker 2>in that process. So there are a few changes that

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<v Speaker 2>have been made, but there are still some concerns about

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<v Speaker 2>how that prescription regime might work and some fears that

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<v Speaker 2>it could be used in future by a minister with

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<v Speaker 2>a grudge against various organizations for reasons other than just

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<v Speaker 2>the hate speech provision, so there's some controversy.

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<v Speaker 3>Still about that.

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<v Speaker 2>There are aggravated offenses for preachers, so people who hold

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<v Speaker 2>leadership positions within religious organizations, if they are found to

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<v Speaker 2>be engaging in hate speech, then the penalty for them

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<v Speaker 2>is greater than for others. There are some aggravated provisions

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<v Speaker 2>if you were seen to be influencing young people as well.

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<v Speaker 2>There are provisions about migration making it easier to deport

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<v Speaker 2>foreign citizens who engage in hate speech, and the Coalition

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<v Speaker 2>pushed hard on aspects of that, and the maximum penalties

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<v Speaker 2>for these offenses ranged from around about seven years up

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<v Speaker 2>to as many as fifteen years imprisonment. So there are

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<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of different elements to that hate crimes

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<v Speaker 2>legislation that.

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<v Speaker 1>Passed, Karen. As you mentioned, the laws dramatically changed the

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<v Speaker 1>way that hate groups are prescribed in Australia and the

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<v Speaker 1>Minister now has more power over that process. So what

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<v Speaker 1>could that mean in practice?

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<v Speaker 2>They've put a caveat in there or a safeguard in

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<v Speaker 2>there that organizations could only be subject to this ministrial

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<v Speaker 2>designation if they're already on AZOS radar. So if the

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<v Speaker 2>domestics by agency has already been investigating them, has documented

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<v Speaker 2>their activities and has evidence that they are engaging in

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<v Speaker 2>hate speech to a concerning degree. That report would have

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the minister first before the minister consider

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<v Speaker 2>designating them. The critics of that say, but that is

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<v Speaker 2>still a secret process, and they are concerned at the

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<v Speaker 2>lack of review capability, so that if you're in an

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<v Speaker 2>organization that's been designated like that, you basically have no

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<v Speaker 2>means of reviewing it, and you won't necessarily be able

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<v Speaker 2>to see the evidence provided against your organization. So those

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<v Speaker 2>are the sorts of arguments that are being made about

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<v Speaker 2>whether those safeguards that have been built in are enough,

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<v Speaker 2>or whether there needs to be another provision to stop,

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<v Speaker 2>say some future rogue minister for using this measure to

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<v Speaker 2>take action against a political organization or some organization with

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<v Speaker 2>whom that minister has a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>We are hearing some concern that under the legislation, groups

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<v Speaker 1>that criticize Israel or accused of genociding Gaza, that they

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<v Speaker 1>could be caught up in these laws. What's your assessment

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<v Speaker 1>of how these types of groups could fare under these laws.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, these are the kinds of difficulties that we face

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<v Speaker 2>when we're legislating in this domain, and the Greens have

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<v Speaker 2>certainly raised concerns. The Greens refused to support the Hate

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<v Speaker 2>Speech Bill in the end because of that.

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<v Speaker 5>We will not be party to a legislation which divides

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<v Speaker 5>communities and people along religion, which can be used to

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<v Speaker 5>shut down political discourse and the right to protest, and

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<v Speaker 5>which scape guards migrants.

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<v Speaker 2>They say fear that it will criminalize the legitimate protest

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<v Speaker 2>against foreign governments, against the activities of foreign governments, or

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<v Speaker 2>human rights.

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<v Speaker 3>Abuses, either in Australia or abroad.

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<v Speaker 2>So the government insists that legitimate protests will still be allowed,

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<v Speaker 2>and they are some of the questions that government officials

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<v Speaker 2>haven't really been able to answer yet, so we may

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<v Speaker 2>well still see things play out in the courts. They

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<v Speaker 2>were also concerned that these laws are restricted to offenses

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<v Speaker 2>involving race and ethnicity and not religion.

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<v Speaker 3>More broadly, not sexuality, not disability.

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<v Speaker 2>They said that they were too narrow and that other

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<v Speaker 2>people would be left exposed Muslims, for example. People of

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<v Speaker 2>other faiths wanted them to be broader than that, and

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<v Speaker 2>number of the Independents also oppose the legislation for some

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<v Speaker 2>similar reasons and because of the short time that was

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<v Speaker 2>given to analyze the bill.

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<v Speaker 1>Karen More broadly, today is a day of national mourning

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<v Speaker 1>for the Bondai attack and the response to the massacre

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<v Speaker 1>has divided the community. So can you see these laws

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<v Speaker 1>going any way to healing that.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, we have to hope that they do.

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<v Speaker 2>I think having the Day of National Mourning is designed

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<v Speaker 2>to bring people back to the grief about the events

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<v Speaker 2>and to perhaps take the focus away from the politics.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it's also designed as a mechanism to

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<v Speaker 2>try and bring people together again when there has been

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<v Speaker 2>so much argument and divide in the Parliament over the

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<v Speaker 2>past few days on what measures should go forward and

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<v Speaker 2>what measures shouldn't to bring us back down to basics

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<v Speaker 2>that we are a country all together trying to move forward,

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<v Speaker 2>and I know the Prime Minister can continually emphasizes unity,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think the Day of National Mourning is not

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<v Speaker 2>only designed as an acknowledgment of the terrible suffering and

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<v Speaker 2>the appalling events that should never have happened, but of

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<v Speaker 2>trying to unite Australia in a determination that they don't

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<v Speaker 2>happen again and that Australians can find a way to

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<v Speaker 2>come together.

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<v Speaker 1>Karen, thank you so much for speaking with us.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks Nicole.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Queensland Premier David Chris A Foley

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<v Speaker 1>has confirmed the state won't back the federal gun buyback scheme.

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<v Speaker 1>The Prime Minister announced his intention to titan gun laws

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<v Speaker 1>after the Bondai massacre on the fourteenth of December, including

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<v Speaker 1>stricter licensing rules and a national buyback scheme. Premier Chris

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<v Speaker 1>of Foley says a gun buyback won't keep gun runs

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<v Speaker 1>out of the hands of criminals and terrorists, saying he

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<v Speaker 1>will introduce new state legislation when Queensland Parliament returns in February.

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<v Speaker 1>Queensland has the second highest rate of gun ownership in

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<v Speaker 1>the country, and Canada's Prime Minister says the country remains

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<v Speaker 1>strongly opposed to any tariffs announced by Donald Trump, as

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<v Speaker 1>the US President vows to take control of Greenland. Addressing

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<v Speaker 1>leaders in Davos for the World Economic Forum, Mark Carney

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<v Speaker 1>urged Middle Powers like Australia to come together in response

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<v Speaker 1>to the fragmentation of what he called the Old Order.

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<v Speaker 1>Mister Karney has vowed to support affected NATO allies in

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<v Speaker 1>pushing back on mister Trump's proposed annexation of Greenland amid

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<v Speaker 1>media reports that Canada is considering sending troops to Greenland

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<v Speaker 1>for military exercises in the region. I'm Nicole Johnston. This

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<v Speaker 1>is seven a M catulator