Speaker 1: When Donald Trump took power, he promised retribution against his
Speaker 1: political opponents. Now he's delivering, and he's using the Justice
Speaker 1: Department to do it, with the US Attorney launching a
Speaker 1: two count indictment against former FBI director James Come last week.
Speaker 2: And it seems like that's just the beginning, not a.
Speaker 3: Less But I think there'll be others. I mean they're corrupt.
Speaker 3: These were corrupt, radical up democrat.
Speaker 1: The Justice Department has also been directed to investigate the
Speaker 1: Open Society Foundations, a group funded by the billionaire George Soros.
Speaker 2: I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to.
Speaker 1: Seven AM today former Human Rights Watch director and federal
Speaker 1: prosecutor Kenneth Roth on how Trump is eroding checks on
Speaker 1: presidential power and the chilling effect it could have. It's Tuesday,
Speaker 1: September thirty. So kenn Of, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: speaking with me today. To begin with, you have known
Speaker 1: George Soros for decades.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit about him and the
Speaker 2: work that you've done with him.
Speaker 4: Well, I met him, I mean literally more than three
Speaker 4: decades ago, when Human Rights Watch was a tiny organization.
Speaker 4: This was early in his philanthropy and he was really
Speaker 4: just exploring how we could make a difference. And you know,
Speaker 4: we all know that his defense of human rights was
Speaker 4: a huge part of his philanthropy. These were the earliest
Speaker 4: days and he was just figuring it out. He grew
Speaker 4: up as a young Jewish boy in Hungary under the Nazis,
Speaker 4: and essentially his father saved the family. His father was
Speaker 4: able to kind of maneuver get false documentation and ultimately
Speaker 4: get the family out. So Sorrows grew up with a
Speaker 4: deep appreciation of the evil the governments could do. But
Speaker 4: you know, George Soros is known foremost for his financee
Speaker 4: and seeing of small human rights pro democracy organizations. More broadly,
Speaker 4: civil society. He really got started while the Soviet Union
Speaker 4: still dominated Eastern Europe, and then with the fall of
Speaker 4: the Soviet Union, he helped actively promote civil society in
Speaker 4: the post Soviet countries, but then more broadly around the world.
Speaker 4: And his idea was that you really needed to build
Speaker 4: democracy from the bottom up. So he invested in education,
Speaker 4: in journalism in various areas that would build a vibrant
Speaker 4: civil society, and he felt that that was the best
Speaker 4: foundation in which democracy could clourish.
Speaker 1: And late last week, the New York Times reported that
Speaker 1: one of Trump's senior Justice Department officials has ordered an
Speaker 1: investigation into the foundation that Soros started, so Open Society Foundations,
Speaker 1: what are they saying about why they are doing that?
Speaker 4: Well? This was sparked by the assassination of Charlie Kirk,
Speaker 4: which was very truma for people across the United States,
Speaker 4: but particularly a lot of Trump's followers, and they were
Speaker 4: quick to blame this on progressive groups that they say
Speaker 4: promoted violence.
Speaker 3: These are professional agitators. These are bad people, and they've
Speaker 3: paid a lot of money by rich people, some of
Speaker 3: whom we know. I'm sure I know.
Speaker 4: So you know. Trump had named this group antifa, which
Speaker 4: is a group that doesn't even exist. It's an anti
Speaker 4: fascist name. But he very quickly identified Sorows and the
Speaker 4: Open Society Foundations as a supposed promoter of political violence
Speaker 4: antifas well.
Speaker 3: Soros is the name certainly that I keep hearing.
Speaker 5: I don't know, but Soros is the.
Speaker 3: Name that I hear.
Speaker 4: I hear a lot of different names.
Speaker 3: I hear names of some pretty rich people that are
Speaker 3: radical love people.
Speaker 4: Trump's Justice Department is citing something called the Capital Research Center,
Speaker 4: which seems to be some right wing group that is
Speaker 4: put together this lengthy report looking at Soros grantees, and
Speaker 4: it is filled with tangentious MacCarthy I had language making
Speaker 4: these facile claims of political violence or support for terrorism,
Speaker 4: which then in turn Sorrow's supposedly funded. Now this is crazy.
Speaker 4: This is like the opposite of a Soro stands where
Speaker 4: he's always promoted peaceful debate. You know, I've known the
Speaker 4: guy for more than three decades. I've never seen a
Speaker 4: hint of him being pro violence in any way. His
Speaker 4: funding doesn't go in that direction. But Soros has always
Speaker 4: been a bogeyman for the far right.
Speaker 1: And one of the examples that was given as to
Speaker 1: why Open Society Foundations needs to be investigated was this group,
Speaker 1: Al Hack, a group that the Foundation funds.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit about them?
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean Al Hak is a group that I
Speaker 4: have worked with literally for decades. It is the leading
Speaker 4: Palestinian human rights group. It's based in Ramala in the
Speaker 4: Occupied West Bank, and it is among the world's top
Speaker 4: human rights organizations in terms of the solidity of its methodology.
Speaker 4: It does very accurate, detailed investigations in difficult circumstances because
Speaker 4: the Israeli government is doing everything it can to block
Speaker 4: these kinds of investigations, but all Hak has field researchers,
Speaker 4: both in the occupied West Bank and in Gaza, who
Speaker 4: record Israeli abuse. Now, in twenty twenty one, the Israeli
Speaker 4: government actually tarred Al Hac and five other Palestinian simple
Speaker 4: society groups as supposed terrorists. Ironically, they didn't do anything
Speaker 4: with it. They say you're a terrorist, but Al Hawk
Speaker 4: still operates today, so they didn't entirely mean it. They
Speaker 4: just used it to try to delegitimize the organization. And
Speaker 4: Trump is now seized on that to say, aha, you know,
Speaker 4: George Soros funded Al Haak. Al Haak is a terrorist group,
Speaker 4: therefore George Soros must promote political violence. I mean, it's
Speaker 4: that kind of false logic that is behind the nothingness
Speaker 4: in these threats against sorrows. And I think because the
Speaker 4: values that he promotes are antithetical to what an autocrat wants.
Speaker 4: You know, autocrat wants to have a monopoly. And what's
Speaker 4: understood is the truth. That's certainly Trump, who surrounds himself
Speaker 4: with sycophans, who doesn't like anybody to criticize him, and
Speaker 4: that's the opposite of George Soros. And so if you're
Speaker 4: going to go after somebody who really represents the kind
Speaker 4: of vibrant, free debate that terrifies an autocrat, you go
Speaker 4: after George Soros.
Speaker 1: Coming up, how Donald Trump went after James Comy. Trump
Speaker 1: is currently targeting several perceived enemies. Last week there was
Speaker 1: the former FBI director James Comey, who was indicted on
Speaker 1: Trump's directions. So tell me a bit about how Trump
Speaker 1: is doing this.
Speaker 4: Well, me, prosecution is interesting because it just breaks all
Speaker 4: the rules. And I see in this as a former
Speaker 4: federal prosecutor myself. I spent four and a half years
Speaker 4: in New York and also Washington as a prosecutor before
Speaker 4: I went to Human Rights Watch. And prosecutors know that
Speaker 4: they are supposed to follow the facts, follow the laws.
Speaker 4: They're supposed to be independent of the president. And it's
Speaker 4: just not done that the president would order the prosecution
Speaker 4: of this or that person. That breaches every tradition of
Speaker 4: an independent prosecutoral authority that exists in the United States.
Speaker 4: But Trump has now, in the case of Komy, pressed
Speaker 4: for prosecution of him for a statement he made five
Speaker 4: years ago in testifying before Congress. It was such an
Speaker 4: ambiguous statement, It was so unclear that it was even false,
Speaker 4: which is what they're alleging, that the professional prosecutors refuse
Speaker 4: to bring the charges.
Speaker 3: They are sick, radical left people and they can't get
Speaker 3: away with it. They told me to me was one
Speaker 3: of the people. He wasn't the biggest, but he's a
Speaker 3: dirty cop. He's always been a dirty cop. Everybody do it.
Speaker 4: And so Trump put in one of his former lawyers
Speaker 4: who had never handled a criminal case in her life,
Speaker 4: and you know, within just a handful of days of
Speaker 4: the statute limitations ending, she convinced a grandjury to bring
Speaker 4: perjury charges against Kmy.
Speaker 5: My family and I have known for years that there
Speaker 5: are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we
Speaker 5: couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not
Speaker 5: live on our knees, and you shouldn't either.
Speaker 4: So this is, you know, just an utter flouting of
Speaker 4: the basic norms of justice. But it shows that Trump
Speaker 4: is allowing his personal mendettas to proceed before everything else.
Speaker 4: Because Comy was, you know, a man he hates. Because
Speaker 4: Comy looked into the original allegations that the Russians manipulated
Speaker 4: and helped to secure Trump's first electoral win for presidency.
Speaker 1: So just how much is what we're seeing now a
Speaker 1: departure from what we have in the past and should
Speaker 1: expect in democracies where there is supposed to be independence
Speaker 1: between politicians and the legal system.
Speaker 4: Well, I should say, I mean, the American system is
Speaker 4: a bit different. Prosecutors do report to the Attorney General,
Speaker 4: who is a cabinet official who is appointed by the president,
Speaker 4: and so as a legal matter, the president does have
Speaker 4: the authority to order prosecutors to do things. It's just
Speaker 4: not done. You know, never before have presidents exercised this
Speaker 4: technical legal authority. They've always abided by the norms that
Speaker 4: insist on on restraint and allowing prosecutors to do their job.
Speaker 4: I mean, when I was a prosecutor, I never ever
Speaker 4: got an order from above. It was understood that I
Speaker 4: would just look at the facts, I would look at
Speaker 4: the law, I would make independent judgments about what I
Speaker 4: thought was the right thing to do, and that's how
Speaker 4: prosecutors operate. Suddenly Trump is breaking those rules and the
Speaker 4: White House deciding who gets prosecuted and who not, Which
Speaker 4: is you know, incredibly dangerous because you know, Trump is
Speaker 4: a very vindictive man, and he could just go after
Speaker 4: anybody for anything. But you know, what I'm seeing right
Speaker 4: now is a chilling effect. You know, for example, we're
Speaker 4: seeing this around the International Criminal Court, which Trump has
Speaker 4: imposed sanctions on because it had the audacity to charge
Speaker 4: Israeli Prime Minister in Natanyahu and former Defense Minister Gland
Speaker 4: for the war prime of starving Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
Speaker 4: And because of these sanctions, a number of human rightscrips
Speaker 4: are now worried. You know, what happens if we provide
Speaker 4: investigative assistance to the court, What if we give them
Speaker 4: our report about what Israel has done? You know, might
Speaker 4: this get US prosecutor might this get us sanctions? So
Speaker 4: I think that, you know, it's really that chilling effect
Speaker 4: that is the principal consequence. Man. Right now, we haven't
Speaker 4: yet seen you know, actual prosecutions. It's more threats of prosecutions.
Speaker 4: But as we've seen the James Company, the traditional restraint
Speaker 4: that presidents have shown not to meddle in prosecutor early matters,
Speaker 4: it's just not there with Trump. So we have to
Speaker 4: expect the worst. You know, He's just not going to
Speaker 4: abide by any tradition. And if he has the legal
Speaker 4: authority to order somebody to order a prosecutor to pursue
Speaker 4: some enemy, he's going to do it.
Speaker 1: How worried are you about what this all says about
Speaker 1: whether US is heading Well, what worries me is.
Speaker 4: That Trump is really implementing the autocrat's handbook. All the
Speaker 4: autocrats do the same thing, which is to say, they
Speaker 4: try to undercut the checks and balances on their executive power.
Speaker 4: And you know, Trump has done this already by you know,
Speaker 4: attacking judges, by attacking members of Congress. He's gotten a
Speaker 4: number of media organizations to pay you know, multimillion dollar
Speaker 4: fines to him and to cut deals. A number of universities,
Speaker 4: you know, Columbia University, for example, has has cut a
Speaker 4: deal costing them, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars
Speaker 4: and subjecting them to ongoing over site by the government.
Speaker 4: He's gone after law firms, and a number of the
Speaker 4: law firms have been forced to cut deals otherwise they would,
Speaker 4: you know, lose access to federal premises and the ability
Speaker 4: to represent their clients. And so, having gone through you
Speaker 4: know a number of these classic checks on the executive
Speaker 4: he's now turning to civil side. But you know, for
Speaker 4: everybody who capitulates, there are others who fight back. So
Speaker 4: the good news is that, you know, unlike say, the
Speaker 4: law firms in the United States, some of which you know,
Speaker 4: broke ranks, had tried to cut deals with Trump, the
Speaker 4: Progressive Foundations have banded together. They put out a statement
Speaker 4: about a week ago saying, you know, we're not going
Speaker 4: to subject or so, We're not going to submit to
Speaker 4: Trump's divide and conquer strategy. We're going to mount a
Speaker 4: common defense and if he comes after any of us,
Speaker 4: we're all going to come to the assistance. And you know,
Speaker 4: the other I guess good news is that he makes mistakes.
Speaker 4: You know, he surrounds himself by singafanns, they don't question him.
Speaker 4: He overreaches periodically, and so this is not the best
Speaker 4: conceived plan, but it nonetheless is an autocratic path along
Speaker 4: which Trump is traveling. I hope he gets stopped before
Speaker 4: he gets to the end. I think he will. But
Speaker 4: this is going to be about.
Speaker 2: Well, can I thank you so much for your time,
Speaker 2: thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, Optus is investigating another failure
Speaker 1: of its Triple zero system, the second in ten days.
Speaker 1: The company said nine calls to Triple zero failed between
Speaker 1: three am and twelve twenty pm on Sunday near Wollongong
Speaker 1: and the New South Wales South Coast. All callers who
Speaker 1: attempted to reach the emergency number are reportedly okay. Federal
Speaker 1: Government Services Minister Katie Gallagher says the failure is disappointing,
Speaker 1: while consumer groups have renewed calls for the government to
Speaker 1: appoint an independent expert to monitor the system. To find
Speaker 1: out more about the government's role in this listen to
Speaker 1: our episode Labour's guilt in the Optus failure. It's in
Speaker 1: our feed now and the Federal government will pay an
Speaker 1: American private prisons operator one hundred and fifty seven million
Speaker 1: dollars a year to run Australia's offshore Processing center in Naru,
Speaker 1: after granting a two year extension to the company. MTC
Speaker 1: Australia is a subsidiary of US based Management and Training Corporation,
Speaker 1: which runs hundreds of for profit prisons in the US
Speaker 1: and UK. With one hundred and five people being held
Speaker 1: on Naru. Australian taxpayers will now pay one point five
Speaker 1: million dollars.
Speaker 2: Per detainee per year.
Speaker 1: MTC has been subject to several civil suits in the
Speaker 1: US relating to security failures and gross negligence.
Speaker 2: I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. See you tomorrow