WEBVTT - Trump’s retribution list

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<v Speaker 1>When Donald Trump took power, he promised retribution against his

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<v Speaker 1>political opponents. Now he's delivering, and he's using the Justice

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<v Speaker 1>Department to do it, with the US Attorney launching a

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<v Speaker 1>two count indictment against former FBI director James Come last week.

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<v Speaker 2>And it seems like that's just the beginning, not a.

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<v Speaker 3>Less But I think there'll be others. I mean they're corrupt.

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<v Speaker 3>These were corrupt, radical up democrat.

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<v Speaker 1>The Justice Department has also been directed to investigate the

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<v Speaker 1>Open Society Foundations, a group funded by the billionaire George Soros.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to.

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<v Speaker 1>Seven AM today former Human Rights Watch director and federal

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<v Speaker 1>prosecutor Kenneth Roth on how Trump is eroding checks on

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<v Speaker 1>presidential power and the chilling effect it could have. It's Tuesday,

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<v Speaker 1>September thirty. So kenn Of, thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 1>speaking with me today. To begin with, you have known

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<v Speaker 1>George Soros for decades.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell me a bit about him and the

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<v Speaker 2>work that you've done with him.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I met him, I mean literally more than three

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<v Speaker 4>decades ago, when Human Rights Watch was a tiny organization.

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<v Speaker 4>This was early in his philanthropy and he was really

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<v Speaker 4>just exploring how we could make a difference. And you know,

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<v Speaker 4>we all know that his defense of human rights was

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<v Speaker 4>a huge part of his philanthropy. These were the earliest

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<v Speaker 4>days and he was just figuring it out. He grew

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<v Speaker 4>up as a young Jewish boy in Hungary under the Nazis,

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<v Speaker 4>and essentially his father saved the family. His father was

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<v Speaker 4>able to kind of maneuver get false documentation and ultimately

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<v Speaker 4>get the family out. So Sorrows grew up with a

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<v Speaker 4>deep appreciation of the evil the governments could do. But

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<v Speaker 4>you know, George Soros is known foremost for his financee

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<v Speaker 4>and seeing of small human rights pro democracy organizations. More broadly,

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<v Speaker 4>civil society. He really got started while the Soviet Union

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<v Speaker 4>still dominated Eastern Europe, and then with the fall of

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<v Speaker 4>the Soviet Union, he helped actively promote civil society in

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<v Speaker 4>the post Soviet countries, but then more broadly around the world.

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<v Speaker 4>And his idea was that you really needed to build

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<v Speaker 4>democracy from the bottom up. So he invested in education,

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<v Speaker 4>in journalism in various areas that would build a vibrant

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<v Speaker 4>civil society, and he felt that that was the best

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<v Speaker 4>foundation in which democracy could clourish.

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<v Speaker 1>And late last week, the New York Times reported that

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<v Speaker 1>one of Trump's senior Justice Department officials has ordered an

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<v Speaker 1>investigation into the foundation that Soros started, so Open Society Foundations,

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<v Speaker 1>what are they saying about why they are doing that?

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<v Speaker 4>Well? This was sparked by the assassination of Charlie Kirk,

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<v Speaker 4>which was very truma for people across the United States,

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<v Speaker 4>but particularly a lot of Trump's followers, and they were

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<v Speaker 4>quick to blame this on progressive groups that they say

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<v Speaker 4>promoted violence.

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<v Speaker 3>These are professional agitators. These are bad people, and they've

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<v Speaker 3>paid a lot of money by rich people, some of

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<v Speaker 3>whom we know. I'm sure I know.

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<v Speaker 4>So you know. Trump had named this group antifa, which

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<v Speaker 4>is a group that doesn't even exist. It's an anti

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<v Speaker 4>fascist name. But he very quickly identified Sorows and the

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<v Speaker 4>Open Society Foundations as a supposed promoter of political violence

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<v Speaker 4>antifas well.

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<v Speaker 3>Soros is the name certainly that I keep hearing.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't know, but Soros is the.

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<v Speaker 3>Name that I hear.

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<v Speaker 4>I hear a lot of different names.

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<v Speaker 3>I hear names of some pretty rich people that are

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<v Speaker 3>radical love people.

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<v Speaker 4>Trump's Justice Department is citing something called the Capital Research Center,

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<v Speaker 4>which seems to be some right wing group that is

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<v Speaker 4>put together this lengthy report looking at Soros grantees, and

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<v Speaker 4>it is filled with tangentious MacCarthy I had language making

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<v Speaker 4>these facile claims of political violence or support for terrorism,

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<v Speaker 4>which then in turn Sorrow's supposedly funded. Now this is crazy.

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<v Speaker 4>This is like the opposite of a Soro stands where

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<v Speaker 4>he's always promoted peaceful debate. You know, I've known the

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<v Speaker 4>guy for more than three decades. I've never seen a

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<v Speaker 4>hint of him being pro violence in any way. His

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<v Speaker 4>funding doesn't go in that direction. But Soros has always

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<v Speaker 4>been a bogeyman for the far right.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the examples that was given as to

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<v Speaker 1>why Open Society Foundations needs to be investigated was this group,

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<v Speaker 1>Al Hack, a group that the Foundation funds.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell me a bit about them?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, I mean Al Hak is a group that I

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<v Speaker 4>have worked with literally for decades. It is the leading

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<v Speaker 4>Palestinian human rights group. It's based in Ramala in the

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<v Speaker 4>Occupied West Bank, and it is among the world's top

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<v Speaker 4>human rights organizations in terms of the solidity of its methodology.

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<v Speaker 4>It does very accurate, detailed investigations in difficult circumstances because

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<v Speaker 4>the Israeli government is doing everything it can to block

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<v Speaker 4>these kinds of investigations, but all Hak has field researchers,

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<v Speaker 4>both in the occupied West Bank and in Gaza, who

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<v Speaker 4>record Israeli abuse. Now, in twenty twenty one, the Israeli

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<v Speaker 4>government actually tarred Al Hac and five other Palestinian simple

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<v Speaker 4>society groups as supposed terrorists. Ironically, they didn't do anything

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<v Speaker 4>with it. They say you're a terrorist, but Al Hawk

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<v Speaker 4>still operates today, so they didn't entirely mean it. They

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<v Speaker 4>just used it to try to delegitimize the organization. And

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<v Speaker 4>Trump is now seized on that to say, aha, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>George Soros funded Al Haak. Al Haak is a terrorist group,

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<v Speaker 4>therefore George Soros must promote political violence. I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 4>that kind of false logic that is behind the nothingness

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<v Speaker 4>in these threats against sorrows. And I think because the

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<v Speaker 4>values that he promotes are antithetical to what an autocrat wants.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, autocrat wants to have a monopoly. And what's

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<v Speaker 4>understood is the truth. That's certainly Trump, who surrounds himself

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<v Speaker 4>with sycophans, who doesn't like anybody to criticize him, and

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<v Speaker 4>that's the opposite of George Soros. And so if you're

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<v Speaker 4>going to go after somebody who really represents the kind

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<v Speaker 4>of vibrant, free debate that terrifies an autocrat, you go

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<v Speaker 4>after George Soros.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, how Donald Trump went after James Comy. Trump

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<v Speaker 1>is currently targeting several perceived enemies. Last week there was

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<v Speaker 1>the former FBI director James Comey, who was indicted on

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's directions. So tell me a bit about how Trump

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<v Speaker 1>is doing this.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, me, prosecution is interesting because it just breaks all

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<v Speaker 4>the rules. And I see in this as a former

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<v Speaker 4>federal prosecutor myself. I spent four and a half years

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<v Speaker 4>in New York and also Washington as a prosecutor before

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<v Speaker 4>I went to Human Rights Watch. And prosecutors know that

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<v Speaker 4>they are supposed to follow the facts, follow the laws.

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<v Speaker 4>They're supposed to be independent of the president. And it's

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<v Speaker 4>just not done that the president would order the prosecution

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<v Speaker 4>of this or that person. That breaches every tradition of

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<v Speaker 4>an independent prosecutoral authority that exists in the United States.

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<v Speaker 4>But Trump has now, in the case of Komy, pressed

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<v Speaker 4>for prosecution of him for a statement he made five

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<v Speaker 4>years ago in testifying before Congress. It was such an

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<v Speaker 4>ambiguous statement, It was so unclear that it was even false,

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<v Speaker 4>which is what they're alleging, that the professional prosecutors refuse

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<v Speaker 4>to bring the charges.

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<v Speaker 3>They are sick, radical left people and they can't get

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<v Speaker 3>away with it. They told me to me was one

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<v Speaker 3>of the people. He wasn't the biggest, but he's a

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<v Speaker 3>dirty cop. He's always been a dirty cop. Everybody do it.

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<v Speaker 4>And so Trump put in one of his former lawyers

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<v Speaker 4>who had never handled a criminal case in her life,

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<v Speaker 4>and you know, within just a handful of days of

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<v Speaker 4>the statute limitations ending, she convinced a grandjury to bring

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<v Speaker 4>perjury charges against Kmy.

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<v Speaker 5>My family and I have known for years that there

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<v Speaker 5>are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we

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<v Speaker 5>couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not

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<v Speaker 5>live on our knees, and you shouldn't either.

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<v Speaker 4>So this is, you know, just an utter flouting of

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<v Speaker 4>the basic norms of justice. But it shows that Trump

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<v Speaker 4>is allowing his personal mendettas to proceed before everything else.

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<v Speaker 4>Because Comy was, you know, a man he hates. Because

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<v Speaker 4>Comy looked into the original allegations that the Russians manipulated

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<v Speaker 4>and helped to secure Trump's first electoral win for presidency.

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<v Speaker 1>So just how much is what we're seeing now a

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<v Speaker 1>departure from what we have in the past and should

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<v Speaker 1>expect in democracies where there is supposed to be independence

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<v Speaker 1>between politicians and the legal system.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I should say, I mean, the American system is

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<v Speaker 4>a bit different. Prosecutors do report to the Attorney General,

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<v Speaker 4>who is a cabinet official who is appointed by the president,

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<v Speaker 4>and so as a legal matter, the president does have

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<v Speaker 4>the authority to order prosecutors to do things. It's just

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<v Speaker 4>not done. You know, never before have presidents exercised this

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<v Speaker 4>technical legal authority. They've always abided by the norms that

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<v Speaker 4>insist on on restraint and allowing prosecutors to do their job.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, when I was a prosecutor, I never ever

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<v Speaker 4>got an order from above. It was understood that I

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<v Speaker 4>would just look at the facts, I would look at

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<v Speaker 4>the law, I would make independent judgments about what I

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<v Speaker 4>thought was the right thing to do, and that's how

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<v Speaker 4>prosecutors operate. Suddenly Trump is breaking those rules and the

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<v Speaker 4>White House deciding who gets prosecuted and who not, Which

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<v Speaker 4>is you know, incredibly dangerous because you know, Trump is

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<v Speaker 4>a very vindictive man, and he could just go after

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<v Speaker 4>anybody for anything. But you know, what I'm seeing right

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<v Speaker 4>now is a chilling effect. You know, for example, we're

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<v Speaker 4>seeing this around the International Criminal Court, which Trump has

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<v Speaker 4>imposed sanctions on because it had the audacity to charge

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<v Speaker 4>Israeli Prime Minister in Natanyahu and former Defense Minister Gland

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<v Speaker 4>for the war prime of starving Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 4>And because of these sanctions, a number of human rightscrips

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<v Speaker 4>are now worried. You know, what happens if we provide

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<v Speaker 4>investigative assistance to the court, What if we give them

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<v Speaker 4>our report about what Israel has done? You know, might

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<v Speaker 4>this get US prosecutor might this get us sanctions? So

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<v Speaker 4>I think that, you know, it's really that chilling effect

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<v Speaker 4>that is the principal consequence. Man. Right now, we haven't

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<v Speaker 4>yet seen you know, actual prosecutions. It's more threats of prosecutions.

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<v Speaker 4>But as we've seen the James Company, the traditional restraint

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<v Speaker 4>that presidents have shown not to meddle in prosecutor early matters,

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<v Speaker 4>it's just not there with Trump. So we have to

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<v Speaker 4>expect the worst. You know, He's just not going to

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<v Speaker 4>abide by any tradition. And if he has the legal

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<v Speaker 4>authority to order somebody to order a prosecutor to pursue

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<v Speaker 4>some enemy, he's going to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>How worried are you about what this all says about

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<v Speaker 1>whether US is heading Well, what worries me is.

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<v Speaker 4>That Trump is really implementing the autocrat's handbook. All the

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<v Speaker 4>autocrats do the same thing, which is to say, they

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<v Speaker 4>try to undercut the checks and balances on their executive power.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know, Trump has done this already by you know,

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<v Speaker 4>attacking judges, by attacking members of Congress. He's gotten a

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<v Speaker 4>number of media organizations to pay you know, multimillion dollar

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<v Speaker 4>fines to him and to cut deals. A number of universities,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, Columbia University, for example, has has cut a

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<v Speaker 4>deal costing them, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars

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<v Speaker 4>and subjecting them to ongoing over site by the government.

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<v Speaker 4>He's gone after law firms, and a number of the

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<v Speaker 4>law firms have been forced to cut deals otherwise they would,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, lose access to federal premises and the ability

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<v Speaker 4>to represent their clients. And so, having gone through you

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<v Speaker 4>know a number of these classic checks on the executive

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<v Speaker 4>he's now turning to civil side. But you know, for

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<v Speaker 4>everybody who capitulates, there are others who fight back. So

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<v Speaker 4>the good news is that, you know, unlike say, the

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<v Speaker 4>law firms in the United States, some of which you know,

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<v Speaker 4>broke ranks, had tried to cut deals with Trump, the

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<v Speaker 4>Progressive Foundations have banded together. They put out a statement

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<v Speaker 4>about a week ago saying, you know, we're not going

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<v Speaker 4>to subject or so, We're not going to submit to

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<v Speaker 4>Trump's divide and conquer strategy. We're going to mount a

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<v Speaker 4>common defense and if he comes after any of us,

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<v Speaker 4>we're all going to come to the assistance. And you know,

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<v Speaker 4>the other I guess good news is that he makes mistakes.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, he surrounds himself by singafanns, they don't question him.

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<v Speaker 4>He overreaches periodically, and so this is not the best

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<v Speaker 4>conceived plan, but it nonetheless is an autocratic path along

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<v Speaker 4>which Trump is traveling. I hope he gets stopped before

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<v Speaker 4>he gets to the end. I think he will. But

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<v Speaker 4>this is going to be about.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, can I thank you so much for your time,

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Optus is investigating another failure

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<v Speaker 1>of its Triple zero system, the second in ten days.

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<v Speaker 1>The company said nine calls to Triple zero failed between

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<v Speaker 1>three am and twelve twenty pm on Sunday near Wollongong

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<v Speaker 1>and the New South Wales South Coast. All callers who

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<v Speaker 1>attempted to reach the emergency number are reportedly okay. Federal

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<v Speaker 1>Government Services Minister Katie Gallagher says the failure is disappointing,

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<v Speaker 1>while consumer groups have renewed calls for the government to

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<v Speaker 1>appoint an independent expert to monitor the system. To find

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<v Speaker 1>out more about the government's role in this listen to

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<v Speaker 1>our episode Labour's guilt in the Optus failure. It's in

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<v Speaker 1>our feed now and the Federal government will pay an

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<v Speaker 1>American private prisons operator one hundred and fifty seven million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars a year to run Australia's offshore Processing center in Naru,

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<v Speaker 1>after granting a two year extension to the company. MTC

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<v Speaker 1>Australia is a subsidiary of US based Management and Training Corporation,

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<v Speaker 1>which runs hundreds of for profit prisons in the US

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<v Speaker 1>and UK. With one hundred and five people being held

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<v Speaker 1>on Naru. Australian taxpayers will now pay one point five

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<v Speaker 1>million dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>Per detainee per year.

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<v Speaker 1>MTC has been subject to several civil suits in the

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<v Speaker 1>US relating to security failures and gross negligence.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. See you tomorrow