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Speaker 1: We all have the ability to access flow. It's not

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Speaker 1: an easy state to be able to access. It's quite

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Speaker 1: difficult to access flow. However, it is accessible and that

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Speaker 1: we can get better at it through training our psychological skills.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Sue Jackson, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much Paul for having me on your show.

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Speaker 2: It is an absolute pleasure, and it's a real pleasure

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Speaker 2: to actually talk about what we're going to talk about,

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Speaker 2: which is all about flow state. But you refer to

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Speaker 2: yourself as a performance psychologist, which I love because it

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Speaker 2: crosses across different domains. Is kind of focused not on problems,

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Speaker 2: but on about being really good or going from good

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Speaker 2: to great. So just give our listeners a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a high level tour of your experience, professional experience, academic.

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Speaker 2: So I call you, I put you firmly in the

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Speaker 2: bracket of procademic p academic.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's a nice term too. I hope that one

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Speaker 1: takes some traction, or maybe it already has.

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Speaker 2: I meete it up, and I call myself a practice

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Speaker 2: somebody who takes all the academic research and then practically

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Speaker 2: applies it to people to help them breath their lives. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, that's quite close to what

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Speaker 1: I do, Paul. So, I began life as an academic

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Speaker 1: and worked in universities in Australia after returning from North America,

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Speaker 1: where I did my master's and PhD in sports psychology

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Speaker 1: at that time. And a lot of what we now

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Speaker 1: call performance psychology is drawn from sports psychology, and obviously

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Speaker 1: because sports psychology is about helping high performers be able

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Speaker 1: to go to the next level, be the best they

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Speaker 1: can be, and so it's that application to anyone who's

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Speaker 1: seeking to be the best they can be, no matter

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Speaker 1: who that is or what the context is. And so

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Speaker 1: I transitioned out of an academic role to a practitioner

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Speaker 1: role in performance psychology in two thousand and seven, and

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Speaker 1: that's the space that I've been working in. And also

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Speaker 1: I'm an author. I like to write, and I guess

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what drew me into the academic world.

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Speaker 1: Really was enjoying writing, enjoying that analytical process of research,

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Speaker 1: but primarily like being able to make a difference. So

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Speaker 1: that's why I am now practicing as a what do

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Speaker 1: you call it, a p academic.

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Speaker 2: Pracademic academic performance psychologist. Let's talk about flow stit. So

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Speaker 2: you've written, you've written a book, an Amazon bestseller, no less,

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Speaker 2: well done. I tip my hat to you all about

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Speaker 2: experiencing flow. So let's just start from the start. A

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Speaker 2: lot of people will have heard of flow, but I

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Speaker 2: see it misused a lot around the internet. And I

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Speaker 2: see people consultants talking about being in a permanent state

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Speaker 2: of flow.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, well, good luck to them. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what they're on.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly what I was thinking. So, so you worked

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Speaker 2: with the great man himself. And I'll give a terrible pronunciation,

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Speaker 2: mehs met me high? Who can you correct me on that?

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Speaker 1: The me high was great? And me high translates to Mike.

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Speaker 1: So he's known by what was known by Mike. He

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Speaker 1: passed in twenty twenty one at the good age of

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Speaker 1: eighty seven. And so Mike Chick sent me high. So

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Speaker 1: the last name is Chick sent me high.

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Speaker 2: Okay, cool. So talk to us. So you had the

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Speaker 2: pleasure of working with him for a bit of time,

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Speaker 2: Can you give us a really good definition of what

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Speaker 2: flow stee it is?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 1: I hope so. And I think that, as you said,

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Speaker 1: many people are familiar with flow, but I also grew

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Speaker 1: that there's probably different definitions or ideas about it bouncing around.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the reasons for writing my recently

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Speaker 1: released book Experiencing Flow is to try to help people

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Speaker 1: to understand what flow is. So basically, flow is a

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Speaker 1: set when you're totally focused on the task at hand.

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Speaker 1: So that's the most simple experience of it. And it

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Speaker 1: occurs when you're in a challenging situation and you have

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Speaker 1: the skills and you trust those skills to be able

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Speaker 1: to meet the challenge. So you basically take yourself out

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Speaker 1: of your comfort zone, which I'm sure you'd be happy

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Speaker 1: to hear me call that word. And so, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: take ourselves out of our comfort zone by stretching boundaries,

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Speaker 1: maybe stretching the challenge a little bit higher than what

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Speaker 1: we might be entirely comfortable with. And that combined with

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Speaker 1: skills to match that challenge, that is kind of like

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Speaker 1: the first and main precondition to be able to experience

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Speaker 1: this state when you get totally engaged in what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is where I see it bastardized because

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Speaker 2: people on the internet talk about being inflousde it all

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Speaker 2: day long and being influsty when you're relaxed. But challenge

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Speaker 2: is critical to it, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? Challenge is critical, and that's always been a component

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Speaker 1: of Mike. I'm going to use the word Mike to

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Speaker 1: refer to Mike Chicks and Me High because that's a

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Speaker 1: lot more accessible for people. And Mike always was referring

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Speaker 1: to a level of challenge being present. As to what

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Speaker 1: that level of challenge is, you know, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a subjective experience, So basically it does come down to

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Speaker 1: one's perceptions. So the same person or two people can

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Speaker 1: perceive the same objective challenge quite differently, right, And so

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Speaker 1: it really comes down to how you perceive the challenge

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Speaker 1: and then also how you perceive your skills, your capabilities.

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Speaker 1: Have you got what it takes to meet that challenge?

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Speaker 1: So you need to get that balance, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think this plays into the whole idea of

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Speaker 2: challenge or threat, which I talk a lot about in

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Speaker 2: terms of I'm not sure if you're familiar with the

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Speaker 2: hardiness literature a little bit, yeah, yeah, And so this

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Speaker 2: idea that there can be a potentially stressful slash challenging situation.

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Speaker 2: One person may view it as a challenge and the

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Speaker 2: other person may view it as a threat. We know

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Speaker 2: if that person views it as a threat, it has

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Speaker 2: a different impact on the cardiovascular system and negative impact

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Speaker 2: and it activates cortisol, whereas if they view it as

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Speaker 2: a challenge, it actually has a positive impact on the

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Speaker 2: cardiovascular system and activiates the fight or flight response, the

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Speaker 2: more adaptive part. But I think what a lot of

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Speaker 2: people don't get about the challengeing threat. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: just like, oh, it's going to be a mindset, just

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Speaker 2: have a positive mindset, this is Is this a challenge?

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Speaker 2: In order to you to really view as a challenge,

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Speaker 2: you have to be confident that you have the skills

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Speaker 2: to meet it, right, absolutely, So that's kind of flow there, really,

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Speaker 2: isn't it. I mean, are those elements come into it?

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Speaker 2: Are there any any other elements about being any flow step?

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Speaker 2: And then on the back of that, can it be

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Speaker 2: both physical and mental, emotional, psych sach psychological or are

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Speaker 2: there any particular constraints around it?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So just to take one step back when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about challenge or threat, if anybody has seen the

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Speaker 1: model of subjective experience that is used to illustrate flow

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Speaker 1: and where flow is positioned in terms of subjective experience.

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Speaker 1: And that model is in my book and it's also

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Speaker 1: available in other sources. But basically, if you think of

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Speaker 1: a pigraph, and there's like eight channels in this paragraph,

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Speaker 1: so you've got challenges on one access and skills on

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Speaker 1: the other access. So flow is that channel where both

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Speaker 1: your challenges and your skills are being extended. And then

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Speaker 1: if you were to go to the left of that

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Speaker 1: and you get to a state of arousal and then

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Speaker 1: from there to a state of anxiety. So you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very similar in terms of what you're calling threat.

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Speaker 1: It's very close. It's fine tune right like so like

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Speaker 1: it would be a challenge one moment and then the

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Speaker 1: next moment is a threat. And it does come down

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Speaker 1: very much to our perceptions but also to our psychological

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Speaker 1: skills and how well we're able to sort of notice

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Speaker 1: where our focus is and bring it back if it's

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Speaker 1: not in the right place.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really becoming more and more interested in attention

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Speaker 2: and an attentional control was involved in a debthly study

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Speaker 2: all around high performance cognition and all of the experts

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Speaker 2: in the study we were all asked to re it

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Speaker 2: trainable cognitive primaries that on Japan High Performance Cognition, and

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Speaker 2: every single person agreed that the most important part of

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Speaker 2: performance under pressure was attentional control. How does that play

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Speaker 2: in to flow? I mean you hinted at it a

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Speaker 2: little bit.

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Speaker 1: There, Yeah, well, I mean if the very most simple

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Speaker 1: definition of flow is when you've got your total attention

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Speaker 1: on the task that you're doing at the present time, now,

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Speaker 1: that is something that's hard for most of us to sustain.

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Speaker 2: Particularly these days.

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Speaker 1: Right, particularly these days exactly, And that is why mindfulness

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Speaker 1: has become so important in life these days, is because

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Speaker 1: we're dealing with so much that is a potential distraction

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Speaker 1: or a real distraction. And so being able to train

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Speaker 1: our attentional skills through mindfulness I think is really critical

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Speaker 1: in terms of being able to have an awareness of

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Speaker 1: where our attention is like as you would be very

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Speaker 1: familiar poul like through mindfulness, with develop greater awareness of

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Speaker 1: where our attention is so like without developing some sort

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Speaker 1: of psychological skill, be it mindfulness, be it breathing something

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Speaker 1: along the lines that helps develop our awareness, then we

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Speaker 1: start to notice so actually my attention isn't on task.

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Speaker 1: But also mindfulness obviously gives us the skill set to

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Speaker 1: bring that attention back back to the present moment. So

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Speaker 1: it's I think, and in my book, I spend quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of time discussing how mindfulness can be a

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Speaker 1: pathway to flow, and for me, it is a really

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Speaker 1: relevant pathway to flow. And without that ability to pay

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Speaker 1: attention and to refocus attention, you know, flow is not

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Speaker 1: going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, because you know, we can think in this model,

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Speaker 2: because I can picture the flow is in the top right,

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Speaker 2: then you go left to have a risal, and then

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Speaker 2: you have anxiety. And that can be when thought creep

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Speaker 2: into your mind. Right, negative self talk keeps into your mind,

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Speaker 2: and you can all of a sudden snap out of

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Speaker 2: a flue stee it and back into through arizal and

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Speaker 2: into threat pretty pretty quickly. But that self awareness is

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Speaker 2: really critical, isn't it of where my attention actually is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, self awareness, And then I think an ability to

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Speaker 1: be okay with what you're talking about, which is those

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Speaker 1: like self doubts that come into our experience and be

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Speaker 1: able to not give them too much power, like in

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Speaker 1: our mind, not give them too much space. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things that there are actually nine dimensions a flow,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sure we'll touch on them. But one of

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Speaker 1: the things that makes flow as enjoyable an experience as

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Speaker 1: it is is that during flow we let go of

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Speaker 1: self consciousness. So we drop that sense of is this okay?

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Speaker 1: Am I okay? What are they thinking of me? And

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Speaker 1: because it's really hard to not be self conscious in

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Speaker 1: the lives that we live, it's a lovely experience that

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Speaker 1: we can then look back on and say, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: that was great. I wasn't so caught up in my

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Speaker 1: own head during that time. And the reason that we're

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Speaker 1: not self conscious in flow is it comes back to

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Speaker 1: that key component is that you're totally focused on the

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Speaker 1: task at hand. So if you are actually one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent focused on the task at hand, you can't simultaneously

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Speaker 1: have some percent also on worry about yourself. It's just

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Speaker 1: doesn't add up, right, And so it's about training our

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Speaker 1: ability to be able to know where our attention is

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Speaker 1: and to bring it back again and again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if we could just create a button that people

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Speaker 2: could press where they could drop self consciousness, the world

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Speaker 2: would be so much of a better place, wouldn't it,

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Speaker 2: And people's lives would be so much better because so

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Speaker 2: many people spend so much time living in their heads.

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Speaker 2: So in Japanese psychology, which my vice practitioner of, they say,

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Speaker 2: the most important thing that you're in control of in

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Speaker 2: your life is the flashlight of your attention. I like

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Speaker 2: that and I love that because whatever you pay attention to,

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Speaker 2: you bringing commits sales to it. Absolutely that's the key thing.

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Speaker 2: So gaining control of that flashlight, I think not only

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Speaker 2: really critical for flows to it, but I think it's

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Speaker 2: really critical for our overall well being.

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Speaker 1: And I think, all right, you're like how happy we are?

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Speaker 1: For sure? You know because for most of us narcissists

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Speaker 1: excluded perhaps being caught being caught up in our own

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Speaker 1: heads and thinking about ourselves. It's pretty negative, right. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't take long for us to be reminded about some

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Speaker 1: reason why we're not good enough, we're not this enough, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so on, and that's just a downward spiral. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, that's one of the greatest challenges, isn't

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Speaker 1: it to be able to let go of that? But

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Speaker 1: like that analogy about that flash flight of your attention,

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Speaker 1: So like if you were to think about having that

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Speaker 1: flash flight of attention totally on whatever it is you're

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Speaker 1: engaged in. You could think of that as being like

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Speaker 1: a flow state, right, because you're totally engaged in what's

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Speaker 1: in front of you or what you've decided to focus

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Speaker 1: your attention on.

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Speaker 2: Hi different. I see as you were talking about that.

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Speaker 2: I was gardening last weekend and I just find myself.

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Speaker 2: I was putting out weeds and I was just fascinated

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Speaker 2: by the resilience of the weeds, and I different weeds

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Speaker 2: have got different routes, and I caught myself in actually

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Speaker 2: flows to it, gardening right, So flows to it. You

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Speaker 2: know a lot of people think, I think a natural

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Speaker 2: thing that comes to mind is sport, right, And I

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Speaker 2: think anybody who's done sport will be aware of that

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Speaker 2: loss of self consciousness. You know, the high demands, high challenge,

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Speaker 2: but also you've got the skills to meet it, and

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Speaker 2: pain at time just melts a little bit. But I

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Speaker 2: presume that you can be influenced it in so many

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Speaker 2: different areas of your life.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And sport was actually the area that I was

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Speaker 1: initially most interested in looking at it because I was

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Speaker 1: studying for my masters and then my PhD in sports psychology,

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Speaker 1: and I stumbled across the concept of flow and immediately

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Speaker 1: there was a language for those times when as an

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Speaker 1: athlete myself, I had been totally engaged in what I

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Speaker 1: was doing and generally performed to my highest level in

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Speaker 1: whatever that activity was, and remember it as being special, like,

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Speaker 1: no matter what the outcome actually was, it was that

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Speaker 1: experience of being in flow. And as I said, when

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Speaker 1: I read the first book on flow that I did,

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Speaker 1: which was called Beyond boardom and Anxiety, was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: there's actually this thing, there's this concept, there's psychologists studying this.

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Speaker 1: And in this first book Beyond boardom and Anxiety. As

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Speaker 1: well as athletes, Mike Chicks at me High, he studied

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Speaker 1: chess players, He studied physicians, dancers, and he studied surgeons

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Speaker 1: and so very different activities, and there was this consistency

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Speaker 1: of experience, consistency of reported subjective experience, even though what

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Speaker 1: a chess player is doing is different to a surgeon

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Speaker 1: mid procedure. When we're looking at, well, what is it

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Speaker 1: like when you're totally involved in what you're doing, the

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Speaker 1: characteristics do tend to have some consistency across different types

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Speaker 1: of activities and settings.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now I sort of deraeled you a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Let's not go back and talk about the nine different

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Speaker 2: dimensions of flow. So one of them was dropping self consciousness,

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Speaker 2: was it?

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Speaker 1: Uh huh yep? So total focus on the task at

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Speaker 1: hand is another one. We've also covered a challenging activity,

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Speaker 1: So that's that challenge skill balance. It's not just a

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Speaker 1: challenging activity, but that there's this balance between challenges and skills.

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Speaker 1: You've got clear goals about what you are doing in

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Speaker 1: the situation, and you get immediate feedback as you're going.

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Speaker 1: That helps you to stay on task and just to pause.

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Speaker 1: There a moment in terms of why is sports so

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Speaker 1: conducive to flow, Well, if we just think about sport

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Speaker 1: has graded levels of challenge that we can always place

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Speaker 1: ourselves into an appropriate level of challenge for our present

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Speaker 1: skill set, and so we can extend ourselves a little

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Speaker 1: bit but not too much. So we've got that challenge

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Speaker 1: to your balance. And in sport that's just something that

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Speaker 1: there's really no limits, right, we can just keep challenging ourselves.

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Speaker 1: As we see in the greatest athletes in whatever sport,

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Speaker 1: they are always pushing the boundaries. Like the recent Olympics,

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Speaker 1: for example, in Paris, we saw so many examples of

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Speaker 1: that anyway, So we've got your challenge to your balance

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Speaker 1: in sport. You've also got clear goals in sport. Like

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Speaker 1: it's because each sport has its own set of rules,

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Speaker 1: its own set of expectations about what you do within

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Speaker 1: that sport, it is very clear. Like you've got clarity

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Speaker 1: as you're going along, and because you're moving your body,

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Speaker 1: you're getting feedback from many sources, including from your body,

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Speaker 1: about how you're going. So this idea of having a

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Speaker 1: challenging activity greater levels of challenge, an activity where there

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Speaker 1: are clear goals and you're getting feedback is one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that sport is very conducive to flow. Having

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Speaker 1: said that, there are other activities that you could probably

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Speaker 1: say would also have those three what are called preconditions

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Speaker 1: to flow.

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Speaker 2: So they are preconditions. They're challenging and the skill balance,

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Speaker 2: the clearer goals, and the immediate feedback. Okay cool. And

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Speaker 2: then there's there was four more that we did.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So we've got as a result of the

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Speaker 1: title focus on the task. You have a characteristic called

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Speaker 1: action awareness merging, and that's where you and the activity

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Speaker 1: that you're doing, or you and the task tend to

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Speaker 1: meld into one. And that is also related to this

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Speaker 1: loss of self consciousness. And so like a cyclist might

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Speaker 1: describe the bike as an extension of their body, they're

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Speaker 1: just one machine moving in the same direction. A musician

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Speaker 1: might describe the instrument as an extension of their hands, say,

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Speaker 1: and that it's all the sense of oneness. So that's

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Speaker 1: another characteristic. We've got a sense of control in flow,

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Speaker 1: so we people like to feel in control. Having said that,

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Speaker 1: control is a slightly different state in this channel model

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Speaker 1: of subjective experience to flow, but it's the sense of

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Speaker 1: like you drop, worry about failing.

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Speaker 2: Jeez, how important is that in sports psychology, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's another one is sense

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Speaker 1: of control. Time transformation, which is an interesting one I

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Speaker 1: think of all of the nine dimensions. It's this sense

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Speaker 1: of time passes differently when you are engaged in something.

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Speaker 1: It can be a conversation, it can be a sports activity,

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Speaker 1: it can be playing your musical instrument, it can be

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Speaker 1: attending a concept, whatever it is. When you have this

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Speaker 1: experience of flow during it, the sense of time often

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Speaker 1: seems to pass differently. And again it comes back to

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Speaker 1: this simple one of you're paying attention to the so

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Speaker 1: you're not sort of okay, so what time is it now?

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Speaker 1: How much longer have I got? Again? Comes back to attention.

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Speaker 1: And then the last of the nine characteristics poul is

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Speaker 1: called autotellic experience, which is really the culmination of having

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Speaker 1: these other eight factors all happening together, is that we

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Speaker 1: have what's known as an autotellic experience, which means intrinsically

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Speaker 1: rewarding or enjoyable, as in we enjoy it, you know.

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Speaker 1: And we may not enjoy it at the time, as

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Speaker 1: in we might not have awareness at the time that oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is really enjoyable, but when we look back on it,

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Speaker 1: we definitely perceive it as an enjoyable experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very interesting, and that time transformation. I just bookmarked

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Speaker 2: a research people this morning which I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: back where they have identified neurons in the brillin that

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Speaker 2: are responsible for the concept of time. And wouldn't it

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Speaker 2: be interesting to see if in flow states those neurons

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Speaker 2: are quiet and down.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that would be really exciting. Yeah, it's just a

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Speaker 1: specific neurons.

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Speaker 2: Specific neurons. I'll flick in the research paper whenever we're done,

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Speaker 2: because I think that might be an area you might

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Speaker 2: be interested in exploring, because people will understand that that

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Speaker 2: time just kind of changes, right, And as you were

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Speaker 2: going through all that stuff, you know, what popped into

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Speaker 2: my head was when I was doing flying training back

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Speaker 2: in the military nineteen ninety eight I think it was,

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Speaker 2: and we're doing advanced flying training in helicopters. I was

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Speaker 2: doing anti submarine warfare. And what you do in the

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Speaker 2: flying training is you do created flights and each one

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Speaker 2: and you do a simulator and then you go out

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Speaker 2: and do a real thing where you you know, the

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Speaker 2: first one is so simple. You go out there, there's

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Speaker 2: a submarine on the surface hat and you see the submarine.

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Speaker 2: It goes on water and it goes in a straight line,

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Speaker 2: and then we've got to track it. And then the

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Speaker 2: culmination of this is what's called a thirsty war, which

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it still happens, but every thirsty

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Speaker 2: off the coast of the UK, NATO would run exercises

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Speaker 2: where it was war games and there was a whole

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Speaker 2: heap of ships and helicopters and submarines involved in this

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Speaker 2: war gaming. And I remember we were really caught behind

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Speaker 2: on weather and we were to do our third flight,

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Speaker 2: and everything was just backing up. So they said, like,

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Speaker 2: we're just going to go out and do a thirsty war.

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Speaker 2: You guys know this is going to be challenging. And

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Speaker 2: we took off and went out there and I remember

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Speaker 2: we joined and it was pandemonium. There was two radios

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Speaker 2: in my ears, there was all.

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Speaker 4: These contacts on the radars.

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Speaker 2: We're trying to get in. It's dark, the pilots are

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Speaker 2: hassling me, and I had a complete brain implosion. It

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Speaker 2: is the first, probably and only ever complete melt down

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Speaker 2: that I have had, and the instructor had to take

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Speaker 2: me out of the seat and he did it, and

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Speaker 2: then we went back and they debrief that. It turns

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Speaker 2: out the guy and the other helicopter, Simon, had the

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Speaker 2: exact same experience, right, He had a complete melt down.

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Speaker 2: And then about three weeks later, or maybe four weeks later,

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Speaker 2: woman did another Thirsty War and we both did really well,

403
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Speaker 2: and time went like that, and that was because we

404
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Speaker 2: had increased our skill level in between, right. But it

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Speaker 2: was exactly what you're saying that if the challenge is

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Speaker 2: too high for your skills, you go out, and I

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Speaker 2: went in about nine seconds all the way into anxiety

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Speaker 2: slash Brian implosion. Right, But then weeks few weeks pass,

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Speaker 2: and you know, you increase your skills, and that's what

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Speaker 2: they do. You know, that greated complexity on each flight

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Speaker 2: and stepping into that so that you increase your skill level.

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Speaker 2: So it's just a little bit of an example that

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Speaker 2: popped into my head that kind of explained everything. All

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Speaker 2: of the elements of flow were in that.

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Speaker 1: And so when you're experiencing what you called a brain

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Speaker 1: implosion and like really high levels of anxiety, you had

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Speaker 1: to like step out of that situation, right. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: possible that you could bring your anxiety level down sufficiently

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Speaker 1: to continue. And also in that type of scenario that

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Speaker 1: just probably isn't safe.

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Speaker 2: So yes, that's what it was a complete safety thing.

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Speaker 5: And it was because it was dark, it was clouding,

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Speaker 5: the piets needed to know where the other helicopters were,

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Speaker 5: and I was just I just how to complete another meltdown,

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Speaker 5: the one and only I think complete brain implosion that

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Speaker 5: I've had in my life, right, And it was just well,

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Speaker 5: I guess the pressure of the situation as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, So it's not like sport you can just tap out.

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Speaker 1: A little bit, but yeah, true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that leads me into I there are any

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Speaker 3: particular personality types or professions that tend to lend themselves

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Speaker 3: more towards flow steps.

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Speaker 1: That's a really great question. Chicks and me High actually

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Speaker 1: talked about and wrote about the autotellic personality, which is

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Speaker 1: exactly that. It's a type of person that is more

436
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: likely to be able to experience flow. And some of

437
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: the qualities that make someone autotellic is that they tend

438
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: to seek out challenge, and they tend to be intrinsically

439
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: motivated towards most of the things that they're doing. And

440
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: rather than definitely you know, we've always got some intrinsic,

441
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: some extrinsic reasons behind what we're doing, but this sense

442
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: of a high level of intrinsic motivation, challenge seeking, high

443
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: level of resilience, and good skills at being able to

444
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: pay attention, and then what might referred to an autotelic

445
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: personality as the people of flow. Actually, I think that's

446
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: a really nice term, like the people of flow. Yeah,

447
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: these people are more likely to be able to experience

448
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: flow in whatever it is they're doing. Now, having said that,

449
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: everything that we've talked about in terms of flow and

450
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: what makes up flow. It's all trainable so we can

451
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: become more autotellic. It's not just there's this gene for

452
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: autotellic personality. You've either got it or you don't. Like

453
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: Chicks and me, High would say that we all have

454
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: the ability to access flow. He would also say it's

455
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: not an easy state to be able to access. It's

456
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: quite difficult to access flow. However, it is accessible and

457
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: that we can get better at it through training our

458
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: psychological skills, which is then where my work is based

459
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: is about what sort of psychological skills are we going

460
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: to help you with? And that is very much an

461
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: individual question. I think like there are certain standard things

462
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: like attention. We've talked about quite a bit here. You know,

463
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: attention is always important. We can always improve. Most of

464
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: us can improve our ability to pay attention. But some

465
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: people would be more praying to self consciousness, so you

466
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: might spend more time in that space, like helping somebody,

467
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: somebody maybe praying for anxiety and helping them manage that.

468
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: And it's not about trying to get rid of anxiety,

469
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: because you know that's that's like a losing game anyway,

470
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: But your anxiety is close to flow if you think

471
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: about this model that I'm describing. So if we can

472
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: learn to trust ourselves in a situation that it's safe

473
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: for us to remain in unlike your example there, then

474
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: we can shift from anxiety into flow.

475
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: Sorry, so just on that, and I love that you said,

476
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: but not getting rid of anxiety, because I hate that

477
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: expression getting rid of anxiety. But how much of that

478
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: am helping some of the anxiety to experience fluisty? It

479
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: involves increasing their skill level or their perception of their

480
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: skill level.

481
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like are you saying, is it either or or

482
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: like it?

483
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: Well, that's a kind of a continuum, really, isn't it,

484
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: Because sometimes they have the skills, but they don't perceive

485
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: that they have it.

486
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: That's exactly the case. And so like the higher the

487
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: challenge that ones involved in, generally you've got skills that

488
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: are helping you to be able to be in that

489
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: challenging zone, whatever that challenging zone is. And therefore, actually

490
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: the higher we go in terms of elite performance in

491
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: whatever domain, those performers tend to have great skills. They

492
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: tend to have pretty outstanding levels of skills however, doubt

493
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: comes in. That's a human characteristic, is that for most

494
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: of us, doubt's going to come in, And so it is.

495
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: I think at the higher levels of performance that we're

496
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: talking about high level performers, it's very much about the

497
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: trust in the skills, whereas at the lower levels it

498
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: might be you simply don't have the skills, then you've

499
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: got to develop them, y.

500
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah for sure. And how much does discomfort tolerance

501
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: or distress tolerance play into this?

502
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that's an area you can probably

503
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 1: talk to pretty well right with your work. And I

504
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: think it's being comfortable with being uncomfortable, which is kind

505
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: of like a skill in anxiety management. Is just that

506
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: it's learning to be comfortable with these changes in physiology

507
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 1: that are happening that come with heightened arousal, and not

508
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: like putting a whole bunch of negative, unhelpful labels on those,

509
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: but just like recognizing my heart's beating fast, or my

510
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: palms are sweaty here, or you know, and being okay

511
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: with that, and then you know, if you are in

512
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: that anxiety channel, then learning to be okay with that

513
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: as well. And another skill or psychological approach that I

514
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: bring into my work is acceptance and commitment therapy, which.

515
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: Ah yeah, protestion and I love I love Okay, I

516
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: love it because it's action focused, right, it is.

517
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: It's action focused. And also that that first word acceptance,

518
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: that's like a way of managing anxiety is to accept it.

519
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: So to answer your question, accepting the discomfort, it doesn't

520
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: mean that you want it. It doesn't mean that you're

521
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: going to like go and seek it out, but like

522
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: if it's showing up, just being able to be Oh okay,

523
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: So this is my experience right now. What am I

524
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: going to do in light of that? And that's where

525
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: your attention skills come in. Well, what am I going

526
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: to do in light of that? Well, I'm going to

527
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: choose to focus on this because this matters to me.

528
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, I'll tell you if I was tizarre

529
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: of the language universe, I would ban the word anxiety

530
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: and replace it with over arisal.

531
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you know

532
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: from what I've described with the flow model or the

533
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: model of subjective experience, you know, there's flow and then

534
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: there's arousal, and then there's anxiety, and then there's worrying

535
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: and so you know, yeah, arousal is can be a

536
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: neutral state to be in. It could be perceived as

537
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: a neutral state to be in, and it's only when

538
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: we start putting the labels on it that then it's like, oh, no,

539
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to be here, I feel terrible.

540
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: And we medicalize it as well. Right, that's absolutely anyway,

541
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: that's a whole nother podcast. So tell me this. Is

542
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: there a difference between flow state and what people report

543
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: as being in the zone or this concept of deep work?

544
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: Are they just both alternative words for flow state?

545
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,239
Speaker 1: Yeah? Really interesting? Well, being in the zone is a

546
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: colloquial term for flow, I think yeah, And I think

547
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: that that term has been around a long time, particularly

548
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: in sport, but in other domains, you know, being in

549
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: the zone is probably not that meaningful. But definitely in

550
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: sport that's a term that's used that athletes and coaches

551
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: talk about, and I think that they may well be

552
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: talking about flow in terms of deep work and cow

553
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: Newport's work there. Yeah, so deep work is a state

554
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: of total focus on the task at hand, and it's

555
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: not my concept, so I couldn't say whether it's flow.

556
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: I think it could be flow, but I don't know that.

557
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: I think it's necessarily all right because, as you said,

558
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: some of the key things, the key elements challenge and

559
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: skill balance, because you can be doing deep work that

560
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: either you don't have the skill for or is quite easy,

561
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: but you're just focused.

562
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: Right, true, Yeah, that's true.

563
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: I think it's probably contextual.

564
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, that makes sense.

565
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: And I guess that's where those prerequisites, was it, the

566
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: challenge and skill balance, the clear goals and immediate feedback.

567
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly right.

568
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: So they're the ones that differentiate from these others stay

569
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: its potentially.

570
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: And from mindfulness as well.

571
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, cool, that makes sense. So

572
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: tell me, with your time working with me or make

573
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: what were the biggest lessons that you liked?

574
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: And this is something that I go into writing the

575
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: start of my book, and a big motivation to write

576
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: Experiencing Flow was to honor the work of Mike Chicks

577
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: at me High and to try to help to build

578
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: awareness of it through whatever ways I can in my

579
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: own small way to help people to understand what flow is.

580
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: And I think Mike embodied the work that he was

581
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: engaged in, you know, having spent time with him, we

582
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: wrote a book together called Flowing Sports in nineteen ninety

583
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: nine because we both shared a passion for sport, and

584
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: he was encouraging of my master's and PhD work in

585
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 1: that area. So Mike was always curious. There was never

586
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: a bad question, a silly question. Was always asking questions

587
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: and seeking to become the best version of himself. And

588
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: I think in my book are going a little bit

589
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: to his background, having grown up in wartime and having

590
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: experienced the chaos and the uncertainty of that. That was

591
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: probably one of the influencers in his life, and also

592
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: just the time in which he grew up in. There's

593
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: an environment in which we growing up in and living in.

594
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: But Mike, Yeah, Mike embodied somebody who was always looking

595
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: to understand more and to want others to share and

596
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: understand through his writings what this concept of flow was.

597
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: So he's written many books, and I really encourage anyone

598
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: that's at all interested in what we're talking about here

599
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: to check out any or all of his different books

600
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: that he's written. So he's written in the work of business,

601
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: he's written in the field of creativity, and he's written

602
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: in the world, in the realm of evolving self so

603
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: he's very much into complexity and growth in complexity. He's

604
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: written about flowing daily life and so, like Mike was

605
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: an extraordinary thinker, and I feel very grateful to have

606
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 1: had an opportunity to have learned from him.

607
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit of a legend, is he really?

608
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: So tell me this, what are so you work about

609
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 2: a lot of individuals around helping them and organizations helping

610
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: them to get into flu stit. What are some of

611
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 2: the common barriers that you see with individuals and with

612
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: teams and you can take those in any order you want.

613
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 1: I think we've touched on some of those barriers. One

614
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: is distractability. Another is self doubts and that in a

615
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: critic and that's that tendency to get caught up in ourselves,

616
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: which is so easy to do, you know, when things

617
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: aren't going well. So in terms of like barriers, I

618
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: think also like the type of society we live in

619
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: where technology is so much key to everything we do,

620
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: and other people have written about this is like we're

621
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: training ourselves and the lives that we have, and all

622
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: of the technology in front of us is actually training

623
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: distractability a lot of the time versus paying attention to

624
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: one thing for a sustained amount of time. And so

625
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: I think that you know, those are some key challenges

626
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: in terms of teams I have looked at and there

627
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: are researchers that are specific looking at flowing teams. Jeff

628
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: Founder out in the Netherlands is one of those people.

629
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: And what I've found when I've interviewed athletes, whether they're

630
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: in team sports or individual sports, is that difference with

631
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: the team aspect of whether the team can get into

632
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: flow or you can get to flow in that team

633
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: situation is how well is that is the team playing

634
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: because it's no longer just you, So it comes down

635
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: to team performance more much more variables. But also the communications.

636
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: Something that comes up is like what's the type of communications,

637
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: what's the nature of communications, because that's a source of feedback, right,

638
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: So keeping those positive and task focused will help a

639
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: group or a team to be able to maybe tap

640
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: into flow.

641
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 2: And you know one of the biggest ones challenge not

642
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 2: stress challenge.

643
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly that perceptions.

644
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then so look, look, I think you've hinted

645
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 2: at some of them that what individuals can do to

646
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: kind of enhance flow in their lives, whether it's in

647
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: the workplace or at home. I think one thing that

648
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: would pretty bloody obvious is put your guard down, mobile

649
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: phone away. I think that's going to be a prerequisite

650
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: unless year you get into I don't think it's possible

651
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: to get into flow stead when your doomscrolling, right, I

652
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 2: don't know.

653
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: Having said that, like, gaming is an area that you know,

654
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: some people will experiencing flowing, and it has been studied.

655
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: Because it's more of a controlled or potentially more of

656
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 1: a controlled environment, you can control more variables. But I think, yeah,

657
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: deciding if if you're going to be involved in a

658
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 1: task and you don't your phone isn't part of that task,

659
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: then having it on silent makes sense. Yeah, absolutely, because

660
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: otherwise there will be distractions.

661
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a really cool study called brain drain and

662
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: that I often start my talks with, and it showed

663
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: that if if your mobile phone is sitting on the

664
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 2: table upside down on silent, it reduces your working memory

665
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 2: capacity and your fluid intelligence by at least ten percent. Really, yeah,

666
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: it's very cool. So that just people think that just

667
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 2: having it on the desk upside down, it's still a

668
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: bloody attention thief.

669
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: Right, because you know what the phone's associated with them.

670
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: So yeah, correct, So a bit of an that's very interesting,

671
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 2: definite enemy of flow. Something just popped into my head.

672
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 4: Other particular Brian states or signatures like Has this been

673
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 4: investigated in functional MRI scanners or any other type of

674
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 4: tech imaging technology.

675
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: Yes, there has been some research in that area. It's

676
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: not the easiest area of research, as you can imagine, because.

677
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 2: Yes, and if you've ever been in an MRI scanner,

678
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: you know they're not particularly conducive to flow, star to flow.

679
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So as technology, like we've we've kind

680
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: of been giving technology a bad rap. But as technology

681
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: continues to improve and we get better, more accurate in

682
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: situe ways of looking at what's going on in the

683
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: brain while people are engaged in their activity, we will

684
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: come to understand what's happening more. But you know, obvious

685
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: things like reduced levels of beta brain weigh frequency, you know,

686
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: less activity in the default brain network, some physiological measurements

687
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 1: of like ease and fluidity in terms of that synchronization

688
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: between brain and body that occurs when we're in flow

689
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: and so on. So yes, it is being looked at,

690
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: and I think it's a it's a very exciting area

691
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: for future research.

692
00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And are people when they're in flow

693
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: do they have to be in alpha Brian way of steer? Its?

694
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 2: So can you be in little better and still be

695
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: in flow? Because you know that that challenge would seem

696
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: to suggest, are they arise? Well, maybe that's the demarcation

697
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: between where arisal turns into flow.

698
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting area and I probably can't provide you with

699
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: a simple answer on that one, but I think that

700
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: better excludes flow. But I guess it's where that and

701
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: we've always got you know, different, we've got more than

702
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: our for and better brain waves happening, and so you

703
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: know the role of theater and gamma and so on. Like,

704
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: it's not an area that I can can comment on specifically,

705
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: but I think, as I said, as we get better

706
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: at being able to tap into what's going on inside

707
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: people's heads, we'll come to understand a bit more about

708
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 1: that psychophysiology of flow. However, there was just just one

709
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,439
Speaker 1: thing that came to mine as I was talking there,

710
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: is that Mike was always cautious about trying to pin

711
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: flow down too much, you know, like to say it's

712
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: this and it's not that because of his attitude, his curiosity,

713
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 1: and his not wanting to sort of like be too

714
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: black and white, and also he didn't want to oversimplify

715
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 1: what is a very complex psychological state. And I think

716
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: that that's probably one of the concerns in the popular media,

717
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: is perhaps an oversimplification of what is quite a complex

718
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: psychological state and not an easy state for people to

719
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: get into.

720
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and these people who tell you can be in

721
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 2: flow all day long are just complete another Charlattan's right.

722
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: Well, I think that i'd probably have to agree with

723
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: you on that, pool Like, it's just like you can't

724
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: run a marathon twenty four hours a day. Like it's

725
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: about balance, it's about times of focus and times of

726
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: restoration and recovery. It's just it's not sustainable even if

727
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: it was possible, because you'd wear yourself out because of

728
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 1: the high level of intensity. Yes, yes, that is involved,

729
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: And I mean after a flower experience, you might be

730
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: feeling tired because you've brought all of your resources to

731
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: a very challenging activity.

732
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: I think that is a really good point, because it

733
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 2: really is complete resource, certainly brand resource, and depending what

734
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: you're doing, a lot of physical resources as well, particularly

735
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: if it's sport right. So, you know, the idea that

736
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: you can be in this huge periods of time I

737
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 2: think is completely ridiculous and not have self awareness and

738
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: all of that sort of stuff. It's preposterous.

739
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: It's also it's incorrect to sort of think that there's

740
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: just a switch that we can turn on and we

741
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: can like I've seen and written or I've not written about,

742
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: but I've read people writing about hacking the flow state,

743
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: like let's just find ways to hack into this, you know.

744
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: Like for me, again, I'm not supportive of that. I'm

745
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: more supportive of well, let's be And this is what

746
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: I think I could speak from my care is like,

747
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: let's become more psychologically complex selves by developing the skills

748
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: necessary to be able to access flow in a challenging situation,

749
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: versus find some way to just, oh, let's just hack

750
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: into it, you know that. Just to me, it cheapens,

751
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 1: It cheapens. What's a very rich experience.

752
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Last few questions, it's year twelve

753
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 2: for students, my daughters in the thrills of it right now,

754
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: coming up to exams. You presumably integrating flow into educational

755
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 2: settings is a great idea. Any thoughts on that, and

756
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 2: then any little tips for any parents that might be

757
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: less thing look at somebody in year twelve to help

758
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: them get into that flow with their studies.

759
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what we're saying flow is about a

760
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: challenging situation. So your year twelve exams, there you go.

761
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: You've got your challenging situation tick. That's ticked. So have

762
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: you got the skills at this point in time? Well,

763
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: let's hope so, because you've applied yourself over your years

764
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: of schooling. So now it's about trusting the skills that

765
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 1: you do have. It's no time for self doubt. It's

766
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: no time for well what haven't I gone over or

767
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: what don't I understand? It's about focusing on what skills

768
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: can you bring to a very high level of challenge

769
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: and to provide you with the best performance that you

770
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: can achieve and to help you to focus the best

771
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: that you are able to in each of your exams.

772
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: And you may or you may not find flow, but

773
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: you'll certainly you'll do better than what you would if

774
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: you decided to take a negative attitude and to doubt yourself. Right, So,

775
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: in terms of education and flow, positive psychology has been

776
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: an area that's had a lot of growth, and Chicks

777
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,439
Speaker 1: at Me High I actually had a lot to do

778
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: with the resurgence of positive psychology.

779
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 2: He was Seigman, didn't he for Seligman and Kicks.

780
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: At Me High. Yeah, And they wrote a great paper

781
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 1: in two thousand in American Psychologists where they outlined positive

782
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: psychology and why it mattered and so on, and flow

783
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: was situated as a central concept within their model of

784
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: positive psychology. And so when positive psychology has been uptaken,

785
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: and I do see that in educational settings that well

786
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: being programs are being offered more by schools and so on.

787
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: Some of those programs if they're well versed in what

788
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 1: positive psychology is about, including the flow concept. And one

789
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: of the leaders in this area in terms of schools

790
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: within Australia was Geelong Grammar School. Oh yeah, yep, yeah,

791
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: So Geelong Grammar School had a positive education or it's

792
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: called positive education, but Operating Positive Psychology Principles has had

793
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: a long standing positive education program and obviously has a

794
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: lot of resources and decided to invest in the positive

795
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 1: education space and they brought out Martin Seligman to spend

796
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: some time at Gelong Grammar School and Mike Chicks and

797
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: Me High also had some contribution, as did many leaders

798
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: in the positive psychology space into what makes a good

799
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: positive education program. And so Geelong Grammar School had a

800
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 1: flagship and still does have a flagship positive education program

801
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: that spurred on a lot of other schools to do likewise.

802
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: And I just want to mention that one of the

803
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: key players in that space is a cold league and

804
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: good friend of mine by the name of John Hendry.

805
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: And for many years he's retired now, but over fifty

806
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: years spent in education, and he was passionate about flow

807
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: and he was passionate about in his Director of student

808
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: Welfare at Geelong Grammar School about incorporating flow into their

809
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: positive education program. Also shout out to John.

810
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 2: Yeah cool, very cool. Last couple of questions, I presume

811
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 2: there would be a link between flow states and positive

812
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: mental health.

813
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

814
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 4: I think.

815
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: I think that that is something that goes hand in hand, right,

816
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:46,439
Speaker 1: because you're challenging yourself and so you're extending yourself. Mike

817
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: uses this term growth in psychological complexity through floor experiences,

818
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: So we are becoming more complex human beings through floor experiences.

819
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 1: These experiences are almost always viewed as positive experiences being

820
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: in flow, and so there's a lot of reasons why

821
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 1: there are connections there between flow and positive mental health.

822
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there's probably a link there in

823
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 2: stuff that you feel proud of. Right, So if you've

824
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 2: been in flow ste it, you know there's generally I'm

825
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: kind of prior to I achieved that that was high

826
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: dumb demand, high skills, and for me, exactly for me,

827
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: a life that you can be proud of is much

828
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 2: better than a life of happiness, particularly as we tend

829
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 2: to define it in the West. Are you familiar with

830
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: the Japanese term of ikey guy.

831
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: I have heard of that term.

832
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 2: Do you think there's an overlap here between flow and

833
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 2: ikey guy?

834
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: I have. I have heard people talk about that overlap.

835
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: John Henry would be one of those people, and I

836
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: probably am not well versed enough in it to comment,

837
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: But if it's something that you think from what we've

838
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: been talking about here, you see parallels between the two.

839
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: From what I know, and I interviewed professor Ken Mogi,

840
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 2: Japanese guy who all about ikey guy, and I think

841
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: there's definitely an overlap. It's probably like a then diagram

842
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: because ikey guy is stuff that you can be completely

843
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: immersed in that you kind of lose the concept of time.

844
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: But you can have ikey guy that's not particularly challenging.

845
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: So that's where I think there is that overlap, right,

846
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: So can't said one of his ichy guys is making

847
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 2: his cup of coffee in the morning and doing a

848
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: ceremony around it and then sitting down with a piece

849
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: of chocolates. Not particularly it's not particularly challenging. But other

850
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,919
Speaker 2: ikey guys, you know, particularly the centregeneurians growing their own

851
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: vegetables and all of those sorts of things. But I

852
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: think there would definitely be that overlap in the ven diagram,

853
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: particularly if you throw challenging and then then I think

854
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: there is lots of similarities.

855
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: Can I just come in on that too, Like we

856
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 1: have talked a lot about challenge skill and High challenge

857
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: and so on, but in terms of flowing daily life

858
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: chicks and me. High has written about that something that

859
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: we can achieve and his book Finding Flow, The Psychology

860
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: of Engagement with Everyday Life, published in nineteen ninety seven,

861
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: was all about that, and he and others have looked

862
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: at flow in daily life settings, and it's about relative

863
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: balance of challenges and skills. So yeah, it's not like

864
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: a super high challenge necessarily, but you know you're describing

865
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: that cup of coffee, you know, that act of making

866
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee. If you are bringing all of

867
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: your attention to it and you're trying to make the

868
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: best cup of coffee that you can, maybe you can

869
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 1: experience a bit flowing.

870
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so it doesn't have to be high chat.

871
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: That's interesting, right, because I always thought the challenge had

872
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: to be quite.

873
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: Well generally, Yes, it is a about a high challenge. However,

874
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: definitely if we can experience flow in everyday life and

875
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,720
Speaker 1: it comes down to that balance of challenges and skills,

876
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: so that like if the challenge is just nowhere to

877
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: be seen and we're super skilled, we won't experience flow,

878
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: we'll experience bortum exactly.

879
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool, very last question, what gives you flow?

880
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: Sport has always been for me or moving my body.

881
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: So as an older person who has had a wonderful

882
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: time experiencing a number of different sports, now for me,

883
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: it's about physical activity and it's about just keeping on

884
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 1: moving and finding that sweet spot where the right level

885
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 1: of challenge for an aging injured body can find something

886
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: that's enjoyable and challenging and that you can develop your

887
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: skills in. So definitely, movement, reading and writing again would

888
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: be other areas for me that I would say that

889
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: I've achieved flowing and can achieve flowing.

890
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 2: Very cool.

891
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: How about for yourself?

892
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, look for me, pretty similar things actually, the sports stuff.

893
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: I actually find podcast interviews that you get into a

894
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 2: bit of flow, because absolutely no, there is a little

895
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: bit of challenge in that you've got to follow the conversation,

896
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 2: not what you're saying, and then think about the next

897
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 2: questions and think about the audience interpretation and all of that.

898
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 2: So so definitely I would say doing podcast stuff would

899
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 2: be and writing a book for sure. And my bloody PhD.

900
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 1: During your PhD Yeah, yeah, Well, I think that you've

901
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: demonstrated just a little bit of feedback because I think feedback,

902
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, can always be helpful, Like just an excellent

903
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: level of attentional skills there, And so I can imagine

904
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: that you do experience flow in your podcasting because I

905
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 1: can see you've been taking some notes for example, and

906
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: but just like staying very engaged and I think that

907
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: you know, your ability to do that is probably a

908
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: reason why you then say, well, this is one of

909
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: those areas where I experienced flow, which is great, and

910
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: you know, for somebody else it might be that listening

911
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: to a podcast and what they're learning through that. You know,

912
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: that could even be a floor experience, so like a

913
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: lower level floor experience too. So yeah, it can be

914
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: in any any activity as long as we're bringing skills

915
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: to a challenge and we're finding a match there and

916
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 1: we're then we're bringing all of our attentional resources to

917
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: what we're doing.

918
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, very cool. So this has been awesome. Thank you

919
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: for clearing up some stuff. I've certainly learned a lot

920
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,760
Speaker 2: about a subject I knew a reasonable amount of vote,

921
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 2: So that's that's a sign of your expertise. Where can

922
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 2: people go to buy the book and find out more?

923
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 2: Presumably you work one on one probably corporate stuff as well,

924
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: So where could people go because I think a lot

925
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 2: of leaders listening this go on, jeez, I need suit

926
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 2: in my business to help with a bit of flow stit.

927
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for My website is called Body and Mind

928
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: Flow bodyomindflow dot com dot au. My book that was

929
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: recently published is called Experiencing Flow and the subtitle is

930
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: Life Beyond Boredom and Anxiety. And that's available through Amazon

931
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: and recently recorded a audiobook, so certain it'll be available

932
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: on audio platforms as well. And I have a small

933
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: social media presence and people can locate that through my

934
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: website as well. So yeah, body and Mind Flow, which

935
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: kind of is hopefully illustrating my interests, I guess in

936
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: terms of bringing things together, it's about that integration of

937
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: body and minding whatever we're doing to hopefully experience.

938
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 2: Flow learally after my my own heart, I tell you

939
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: that that body brain mind integration really critical.

940
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 1: I did notice we had some similarities in our website

941
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: emails anyway.

942
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, so there's been awesome, Thank you very much.

943
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, people go and buy the book and get

944
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 2: yourself in the flow and put your goddown mobile phone away.

945
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 2: Thanks so