WEBVTT - The best confession police had ever heard: Caroline Clarke Pt. 2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Less than ten percent of reported sexual assaults result in

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<v Speaker 1>a conviction in Australia. So what does it actually take

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<v Speaker 1>to bring a rapist to justice? In Part two of

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<v Speaker 1>my conversation with former police officer and sexual assault survivor

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<v Speaker 1>Carolyn Clark, we find out exactly that Caroline became an

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<v Speaker 1>active force in her own case, navigating a justice system

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<v Speaker 1>she once served to ensure the man who assaulted her

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<v Speaker 1>faced consequences. We also unpack one of the most misunderstood

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<v Speaker 1>reactions in trauma, the freeze response. It's not a weakness

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<v Speaker 1>or a choice, but rather a survival mechanism hardwired into us,

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<v Speaker 1>yet one that continues to be used against survivors in courtrooms,

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<v Speaker 1>in conversations, and even in their own heads. Caroline breaks

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<v Speaker 1>down why it happens, how it works, and why the

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<v Speaker 1>shame so many survivors carry about it is not only unfair,

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<v Speaker 1>it's also wrong. Carolin Clarke, Welcome back to part two

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<v Speaker 1>of I Catchkillers. Thank you before we start, Can I

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<v Speaker 1>just read out a passage It's about about your journey,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think it'll give us some talking points. Caroline

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<v Speaker 1>was raped, and in the aftermath of the most viole

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<v Speaker 1>lady in experience of her life, something unexpected happened. She

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<v Speaker 1>stopped being silent for the first time, she refused to

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<v Speaker 1>carry shame that was never hers. She traced every pattern,

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<v Speaker 1>every wound, every moment she had been taught to stay quiet,

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<v Speaker 1>all the way back to where it began, and she

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<v Speaker 1>found her voice, not the performance of it, the real one. Again.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot to unpack there. Taught me through what was

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<v Speaker 1>meant in what I just read out.

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<v Speaker 2>So to continue after I got home, and then I

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<v Speaker 2>did what I'd always done, which was I'll just keep

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<v Speaker 2>it inside tell anyone through fear of what the repercushions

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<v Speaker 2>might be. Now by day two, the shame was that

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<v Speaker 2>heavy and insidious. I remember thinking, gosh, I can so

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<v Speaker 2>see how people don't want to be here anymore. To

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<v Speaker 2>end it, you were feeling that shame, it was, I can.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like it was almost like a dark cloud had descended,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wanted it to disappear. And as the days

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<v Speaker 2>went on, the shame got worse, which also made me

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<v Speaker 2>understand is this what people carry? And it's I feel

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<v Speaker 2>like I'd carried it my whole life, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>ready to put it down, to lay it down, and

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<v Speaker 2>I guess this was an opportunity, but the readiness to

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<v Speaker 2>go and do that. Yeah, when people say, oh, why

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<v Speaker 2>didn't you report straight away, it's not as simple as that.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to be really ready to sit down and

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<v Speaker 2>talk through one of the most violating experiences of your

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<v Speaker 2>sacred body to a stranger and then explain why you

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<v Speaker 2>didn't fight back. I mean, you have to be ready

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<v Speaker 2>for that. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So these were all the things that were going through

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<v Speaker 1>your mind at the time, and you know, just pulling

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<v Speaker 1>back on that a little bit, you were saying you

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<v Speaker 1>didn't want to be there? Is that how low that

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<v Speaker 1>you got?

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<v Speaker 2>I was solow. I didn't want to leave the house.

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<v Speaker 2>I just thought, how can I continue? It's as if

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<v Speaker 2>I come to a crossroads in my life where there

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<v Speaker 2>was no choice. I couldn't carry all the things I

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<v Speaker 2>carried and add that to the backpack of silence, if

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<v Speaker 2>that makes sense. It's like a part of me was

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<v Speaker 2>saying I'm done. I can't continue. So I actually rang

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<v Speaker 2>a friend of mine who was living in Costa Rica.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've got something to tell you, and of course

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<v Speaker 2>it tell me, tell me, and I couldn't get the

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<v Speaker 2>words out, and eventually I did, and he said, if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't go and report this, you're just going to

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<v Speaker 2>keep continuing the same cycle your whole life, where people

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<v Speaker 2>in circumstances will keep coming in to keep you silent.

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<v Speaker 2>And I felt like I want to live a life

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<v Speaker 2>of freedom. I don't want to keep being silent. So

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<v Speaker 2>he said to me, well, my friends, the head of

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<v Speaker 2>the DV unit on the Gold Coast, as a friend,

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<v Speaker 2>can I get him to call you you and have

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<v Speaker 2>a conversation. So that felt like it wasn't walking into

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<v Speaker 2>a police station. It was a police officer, but.

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<v Speaker 1>It was less confronting than you turning up on announswer exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So he called me an hour later and it was

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful and he said, look, you know, he explained the

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<v Speaker 2>seriousness of it, but he said, you don't have to

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<v Speaker 2>do anything with it if you're not ready. So he

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<v Speaker 2>was lobby give me permission to sit with it. And

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<v Speaker 2>then the following week, which would have been a week

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<v Speaker 2>after it happened, I spoke to a friend and she said,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got You've got to go to the police station.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So I went to a police station straight away. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know what I was thinking to even just go

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<v Speaker 2>by myself, like, not even to think about getting a

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<v Speaker 2>support person. I remember walking into the desk and seeing

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<v Speaker 2>the uniformed officer thinking, I used to be that, I

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<v Speaker 2>used to do that. How the heck have I ended

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<v Speaker 2>up in this situation?

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<v Speaker 1>Coming it's hard for place to see themselves as victims

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<v Speaker 1>when they're being on the other side of the counter.

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<v Speaker 2>And you notice the words that I used, Well, is

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<v Speaker 2>how did I get myself in this situation. So again

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<v Speaker 2>that blame of this is my fault. I put myself there.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't protect myself. So imagine if I've gone in

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<v Speaker 2>there carrying a sense of this is somehow my fault,

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<v Speaker 2>then you're already on the back foot to then explain

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<v Speaker 2>that this was something that happened to me. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>something that I invited. So I said to her, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to speak to a female officer. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>then they know it's some form of I guess sexual

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<v Speaker 2>or domestic violence. So I sat down and I explained

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<v Speaker 2>to her what happened, and she went he did what?

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<v Speaker 2>And her response alone, and I said, is that bad?

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<v Speaker 2>She's like Caroline? And I thought, okay, this is not

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<v Speaker 2>just going to be something that I can just brush

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<v Speaker 2>off with a give him a slap on the wrisk,

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<v Speaker 2>go around and talk to him. So then she brought

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<v Speaker 2>a detective in, and of course, I think being an

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<v Speaker 2>ext police officer worked in my favor, but also went

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<v Speaker 2>against me because I knew the journey a victim. I'd

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<v Speaker 2>been in the witness box as a police officer. I'd

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<v Speaker 2>been cross examined, and as you remember, it's the most

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<v Speaker 2>terrifying place to be, and I didn't want to go there,

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<v Speaker 2>so I gave a statement, but not a statement that

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<v Speaker 2>was going to then leading to anything. At that moment

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<v Speaker 2>in time, told them what had happened, and he went,

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<v Speaker 2>you know that's rape. I remember my whole body going oh,

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<v Speaker 2>and a part of me went, oh, this is serious now,

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<v Speaker 2>like this isn't just something that happened that I can

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<v Speaker 2>just forget about.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, well, what now, and he said, well, it's

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<v Speaker 2>probably high chance it would go to trial. So as

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<v Speaker 2>soon as I heard trial, and as went I'm not ready,

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<v Speaker 2>and I literally got up and ran out of the

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<v Speaker 2>police station.

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<v Speaker 1>Because with your experience, you'd understand the nature of what

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<v Speaker 1>the trial would mean and the questions that would be

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<v Speaker 1>asked of you and all the things that would be put.

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<v Speaker 2>There, and already going in there, going this is something

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<v Speaker 2>my fault. Well that's what they're going to prey upon.

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<v Speaker 2>As we know, it's all about consent, one word against

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<v Speaker 2>the other. And how can I go in there and

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<v Speaker 2>prove that I didn't willingly ask for that and the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that I froze, How the heck do I explain that?

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<v Speaker 1>I can see why you conflicted, Like looking at it

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<v Speaker 1>purely from an evidentary point of view. It's a difficult

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<v Speaker 1>one to prove. And you make this complaint formal, you're

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<v Speaker 1>the one that the whole case is going to rely

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<v Speaker 1>upon your your evidence.

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<v Speaker 2>So I left, yep, and I went home, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was a good few days later. Again, there

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<v Speaker 2>has to be that readiness. It's a process. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>something you just go right, I'm going to make a decision.

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<v Speaker 2>So I went back in and they all went, we

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<v Speaker 2>are so glad that you're that you were ready. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the support that I got, yeah, because of

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<v Speaker 2>course they knew my background. You could see that I

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<v Speaker 2>was a credible witness when I explain what happened in

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<v Speaker 2>such detail, and they I think, just you don't make

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<v Speaker 2>that stuff up. So I would say my experience with

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<v Speaker 2>the police was the second to none, Like they were

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<v Speaker 2>incredible from start to finish.

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<v Speaker 1>That's great too. I like hearing that the police responded

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<v Speaker 1>that way. And I think another thing, and people that

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<v Speaker 1>have been in similar situations as yourself get further traumatized

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<v Speaker 1>if once they walk into the police station, that gets

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<v Speaker 1>taken out of their hands. I think it's important that

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<v Speaker 1>you as a person that's been assaulted, has control of

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<v Speaker 1>the situation, whether you wanted to make a formal complaint,

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<v Speaker 1>because otherwise it just causes more trauma. You have power

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<v Speaker 1>taken away from you again. If you think you walk

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<v Speaker 1>into a police station you're not going to have any

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<v Speaker 1>say in the matter, but you do.

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<v Speaker 2>And just by them saying that, look, you come back

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<v Speaker 2>when you're ready, we're here waiting means that you've got

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<v Speaker 2>the authority and it's not all the longer you imagine

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<v Speaker 2>being told or the longer you leave it, the less

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<v Speaker 2>chance that you're going to get to get a conviction. Here.

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<v Speaker 2>They were like, we're waiting, come back. And I remember

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<v Speaker 2>one of the heads of news police, the detective. He

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<v Speaker 2>said to me, we believe you, Caroline. And I can't

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<v Speaker 2>tell you what those three words that would mean. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think if there's anything that I wanted to go

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<v Speaker 2>out and say to the public, if someone comes to

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<v Speaker 2>you who's been violated abusing any way, when someone says

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<v Speaker 2>I believe you, it's almost like nectar, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can understand going in there. And if you've

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<v Speaker 1>been questioned about it, than people have got douts that

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<v Speaker 1>you've been traumatized again.

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<v Speaker 2>Completely and having to sort of relive it. But then

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<v Speaker 2>you are sitting there going if he gets arrested, he

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<v Speaker 2>could go one of two ways. He either says I

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<v Speaker 2>did it, which I really believe in my heart he would. Yeah. Probably. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>that little naive part surely is going to be honest.

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<v Speaker 2>Surely is just going to own up to it, because

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<v Speaker 2>that's the beautiful heart in me that thinks people just

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<v Speaker 2>tell the truth, right. Yeah, And then another part of

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<v Speaker 2>me is asking if he doesn't, how does then that

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<v Speaker 2>look for me and my four sons. I'm a single mom,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, how would I navigate this while raising boys?

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<v Speaker 1>And I would understand too. There's a public aspector as well,

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<v Speaker 1>when it goes to court that Yeah, if it's in NUSA,

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<v Speaker 1>in that area, you know a lot of people in

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<v Speaker 1>the area, and yeah, this type of thing would become

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<v Speaker 1>very public.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a small community, and I think I'm quite

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<v Speaker 2>a private person and going into a witness box and

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<v Speaker 2>talking about someone violating, say those parts of your body,

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<v Speaker 2>and having to talk about that in public. Yes, is

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<v Speaker 2>it's not for the faint hearted.

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<v Speaker 1>Once it's been reported. You took a couple of I

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<v Speaker 1>used to go into the place after speaking to a friend,

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<v Speaker 1>and then a week to the side that you're goin

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<v Speaker 1>to pursued with it. What were the next things that

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<v Speaker 1>next things that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, firstly, it's almost like I had this angel that

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<v Speaker 2>was guiding me, because I remember closing my eyes and saying,

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<v Speaker 2>there's absolutely no way I want to go through a trial.

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<v Speaker 2>It was almost if if there was certainty that it

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<v Speaker 2>would go to trial, I would have pulled out, Like

0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.960
<v Speaker 2>there was every single part of the screaming no, no.

0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.080
<v Speaker 2>And then this voice came in and it said, what

0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.280
<v Speaker 2>if you don't have to go to trial. It was

0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.600
<v Speaker 2>whether it's my mom on the either side, I don't know,

0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.800
<v Speaker 2>And I just said, oh, what do you mean? And

0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.280
<v Speaker 2>this voice said, just take the next right move for you.

0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.120
<v Speaker 2>And that's what I tell my clients. Don't think about

0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.960
<v Speaker 2>three months, six months, nine months. If you take the

0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.839
<v Speaker 2>next right move, the next door will just automatically open.

0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.160
<v Speaker 2>It'll be the right door. So it's almost like the

0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.520
<v Speaker 2>message I give my clients was being regurgitated back to me.

0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 2>So I said, okay, I'm red and then Brooke, one

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.959
<v Speaker 2>of the females, said there's a possibility you could make

0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:09.120
<v Speaker 2>a call to him and have a conversation and see

0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.680
<v Speaker 2>if you'll admit it. And I thought, oh, maybe that

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.280
<v Speaker 2>voice was correct. It's almost like I was being guided.

0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:17.559
<v Speaker 2>There was a bigger part of me, or something about

0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.360
<v Speaker 2>me that knew that, and I didn't understand that that

0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 2>was ever a possibility. So there was a sense of

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.800
<v Speaker 2>relief that thought, Okay, if he admits it. I knew

0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:32.439
<v Speaker 2>then that the evidence for me would be so substantial

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:34.960
<v Speaker 2>it could then end up in a conviction. So I said,

0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 2>thinking it's the most terrifying thing I could ever do. However,

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:40.040
<v Speaker 2>and prepared to give it a go.

0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:46.240
<v Speaker 1>And you contacted him and got admission. I did so

0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:47.120
<v Speaker 1>good on you.

0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Was a spur of the moment thing. And I called

0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 2>him and in order to get the confession out, had

0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.720
<v Speaker 2>to name everything that he did, which again was pretty scary.

0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.760
<v Speaker 2>If I do it from the heart and just have

0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.320
<v Speaker 2>a conversation with him and just ask him like I

0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.400
<v Speaker 2>wanted answers. Gary, So I've got an opportunity. Now, Yes,

0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.000
<v Speaker 2>I get it recorded, but I also get answers for myself,

0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 2>which was why why me? I'm curious? And he said

0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.520
<v Speaker 2>I had a crush on you, and I said, I

0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 2>work in trauma and I work with clients and we

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.240
<v Speaker 2>have a duty of care. If there's any sense of

0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:34.920
<v Speaker 2>desire or feelings, if you keep that to yourself and

0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.640
<v Speaker 2>don't disclose that, then you're taking away an opportunity for

0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 2>me to feel safe in your company. If you would

0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.440
<v Speaker 2>have told me that you had feelings, is no way

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.520
<v Speaker 2>that I would have undressed and got on that bed. Yes,

0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.320
<v Speaker 2>So he had these feelings way before that fourth session,

0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:56.840
<v Speaker 2>kept it to himself, and in that moment he swooped

0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 2>in and violated a body that was semi unconscious, relaxed, fully, trusting,

0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>and with the freeze response. It tends to happen more

0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.800
<v Speaker 2>so when you're in a place where you assume trust,

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.440
<v Speaker 2>because there's if someone grabs you off the street. You know,

0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.160
<v Speaker 2>people walking down the street, you might be a little

0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.040
<v Speaker 2>bit you can hear footsteps behind you, or you might

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 2>look at a figure that looks, you know, a little

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>bit dodgy, and you sort of sem me aware. Imagine

0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 2>lying on a bed or asleep at night next to

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.080
<v Speaker 2>a partner who you've said, I don't want to have

0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.160
<v Speaker 2>any sex tonight, and you're already relaxed. So he swept

0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 2>in a moment when I least expected it. So that's

0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.320
<v Speaker 2>the most dangerous time because it's some unfamiliar who you'll

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.720
<v Speaker 2>never ever think will cross a boundary with you in

0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:52.440
<v Speaker 2>that moment. So I got the confession. He apologized profusely,

0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.360
<v Speaker 2>saying my bad, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I named everything

0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 2>he did to me, and I said to him, you know,

0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I may never ever enter a room with a male

0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.760
<v Speaker 2>in this situation, goin a professional in a medical setting.

0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:12.000
<v Speaker 2>You've robbed me of that opportunity, and you need to

0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.160
<v Speaker 2>go on your own journey and I need to go online.

0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.640
<v Speaker 2>But I trusted you, and when you've breached someone's trust

0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.240
<v Speaker 2>in that situation, it cannot affect someone for the rest

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:28.320
<v Speaker 2>of their life. So that lasted about four and a

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.880
<v Speaker 2>half minutes. We were meant to meet that day and

0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.640
<v Speaker 2>actually see each other face to face, but of course

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.640
<v Speaker 2>the call happened before, which was great, and he said,

0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.240
<v Speaker 2>please still meet me. I want to make it up

0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.760
<v Speaker 2>to you. He was panicking because I think on that

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.960
<v Speaker 2>call he wasn't sure how I felt right, And I

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.640
<v Speaker 2>got the chance to vocalize that and say, do you

0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:54.120
<v Speaker 2>realize what you've done constitutes rape? In that moment, his

0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 2>world fell apart, And I don't think it fell apart

0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.440
<v Speaker 2>because he took any accountability, fell apart because it'd been caught.

0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 2>So we put the phone down and then Brooke with

0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.400
<v Speaker 2>the detective, came in and said, that's the best recorded

0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>confession I've ever heard. And I realized that all of

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.440
<v Speaker 2>my police background, it's like it was sitting there waiting

0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:25.400
<v Speaker 2>for an opportunity, Yeah, for me to make someone accountable,

0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.040
<v Speaker 2>to have a voice, to be heard, and to do

0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.320
<v Speaker 2>it in such a way that I had composure. I

0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.359
<v Speaker 2>just put everything aside. It's like I was back in

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.199
<v Speaker 2>a role I had a job to do in that

0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.920
<v Speaker 2>form minutes and I couldn't believe how quickly it kicked in,

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.000
<v Speaker 2>because after the call, the shake started. So I think

0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.120
<v Speaker 2>I've obviously got this great ability in that moment which

0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:49.480
<v Speaker 2>to switch it on.

0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 1>At what point in time was he charged? And did

0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.040
<v Speaker 1>the police tell you that that? Again? The charging?

0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.879
<v Speaker 2>So just after the confession, they didn't have many hours

0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.359
<v Speaker 2>left of their shift, and this was a Saturday, and

0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.159
<v Speaker 2>they said, I said, oh, when you're going to arrest him, Oh,

0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:08.080
<v Speaker 2>we'll get him on Monday morning. Monday morning, it's now Saturday,

0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 2>and bearing in mind massage therapists are not regulated, so

0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:17.240
<v Speaker 2>he could continue massaging. My biggest fear was him doing

0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.080
<v Speaker 2>that to somebody else. I felt like it was my

0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.360
<v Speaker 2>duty of care to stop him from providing those services

0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.040
<v Speaker 2>to anybody else. I said, the police, can you put

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.560
<v Speaker 2>it on his bail conditions? I don't want him. No, no, no,

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.640
<v Speaker 2>we can't do that because what about the old lady

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.280
<v Speaker 2>down the streets. She might say, you can't take his

0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.960
<v Speaker 2>livelihood away? I was like, are you kidding me? Like so,

0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.600
<v Speaker 2>they were going to do it on the Monday. Then

0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.320
<v Speaker 2>I got a barrage of text messages from him over

0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:47.520
<v Speaker 2>and over. He was spiraling out of contract. So they said,

0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.920
<v Speaker 2>oh well for places, Well it was almost fun. They said,

0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:52.480
<v Speaker 2>oh well, I said, what am I supposed to do

0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:53.800
<v Speaker 2>with this? I said, well, if you think he's going

0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.399
<v Speaker 2>to commit suicide, dad triple zero And I said, you

0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.119
<v Speaker 2>can't put that responsibility on me. So I think in

0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 2>that time that I left the station, they decided to

0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.040
<v Speaker 2>go out and get him that day. So that was

0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.040
<v Speaker 2>the seventh of December twenty twenty four.

0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.840
<v Speaker 1>How did you feel when he was found out that

0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:12.760
<v Speaker 1>he was main charged.

0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, he didn't have an interview like in the UK,

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.840
<v Speaker 2>everybody's interviewed and they've got a right to not reply.

0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.439
<v Speaker 2>He didn't have an interview, so he didn't get to

0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.240
<v Speaker 2>give his version of events, which felt a little bit disappointing.

0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:30.200
<v Speaker 2>It was finding saying it on the phone, But then

0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 2>what would happen in that situation where he's been interviewed

0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.680
<v Speaker 2>by police, So he never knew that that call was recorded.

0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.800
<v Speaker 2>It was never put to him because he wasn't interviewed.

0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.080
<v Speaker 2>So from the seventh of December until the start of March,

0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:47.560
<v Speaker 2>it took three months for all the evidence to be

0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.679
<v Speaker 2>put together and the brief of evidence, so he didn't know.

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.560
<v Speaker 2>So of course, going out into the community, it was

0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:57.000
<v Speaker 2>all this is unfounded and untrue and I'm an innocent man.

0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.760
<v Speaker 2>So you can only imagine when that brief of evidence

0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.159
<v Speaker 2>lant on his lawyer's desk, when they realized that it

0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.959
<v Speaker 2>wasn't just it was a call that had been recorded.

0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.399
<v Speaker 2>So I thought, surely he's going to play guilty. I

0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.160
<v Speaker 2>just wanted it to be over so that I could

0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.440
<v Speaker 2>then start to heal and not just be again. I've

0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:20.040
<v Speaker 2>just got to be composed and get through this. But no,

0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.000
<v Speaker 2>he pleaded not guilty all the way through.

0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.040
<v Speaker 1>So you would have had the concerns of giving evidence,

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.240
<v Speaker 1>knowing the traumadica time you're going to have in the

0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.239
<v Speaker 1>witness box and the type of questions that they're going

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.200
<v Speaker 1>to be asked of you. His name is public, isn't

0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:39.520
<v Speaker 1>it yea? His name yeah, Cameron Petrie.

0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:44.639
<v Speaker 2>He was had a massage room in Sunshine Beach on

0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:45.560
<v Speaker 2>the Sunshine Coast.

0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.800
<v Speaker 1>Charge one count of rape and two counts of sexual assault.

0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.440
<v Speaker 2>The DPP increased the charges. It was just sexual assault

0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 2>I think it was three charges and then they they

0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.440
<v Speaker 2>changed them to aggravated sexual assault, which I was quite

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.000
<v Speaker 2>impressed with that they had the brief of evidence and

0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.119
<v Speaker 2>when this is more serious than the charge that the

0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.280
<v Speaker 2>police have given him, we're going to upgrade them.

0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.159
<v Speaker 1>And the aggravation that he was in a position of power.

0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.240
<v Speaker 2>No, he actually performed oral sex on me. That was aggravated.

0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Ah okay, that was what is this feeling? I don't

0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.879
<v Speaker 2>know what it is like? This this is I couldn't

0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:24.880
<v Speaker 2>understand what it was. September twenty twenty five, I got

0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.720
<v Speaker 2>called by a female at the DPP and she said

0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 2>he wants to do a plea bargain. I was expecting that, Yeah, yeah,

0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:35.840
<v Speaker 2>he wants to reduce. He wants to reduce the rape

0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.600
<v Speaker 2>charge an ill plead to the aggravated sexual assault. Her

0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:44.000
<v Speaker 2>response was, Caroline, we had got so much evidence, she said,

0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.560
<v Speaker 2>it's ultimately your decision. Again, beautiful, they put it in

0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:48.879
<v Speaker 2>my hands. But we've got enough evidence to take this

0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:53.880
<v Speaker 2>to trial. So that was September twenty twenty five. Yes, okay,

0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.840
<v Speaker 2>So we continued pleaded not guilty. Fast forward to March.

0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.840
<v Speaker 2>It was supposed to be the trial case number two,

0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:05.360
<v Speaker 2>so we didn't get heard. Just before that trial day,

0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.879
<v Speaker 2>on the ninth of March, I get another phone call

0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:13.280
<v Speaker 2>from a male prosecutor who had a very different demeanor

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.359
<v Speaker 2>to the female in September. Caroline, we're now going to

0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:19.720
<v Speaker 2>be delayed another couple of months. Of course, they know

0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.480
<v Speaker 2>that I'm going, Oh, just want this over with. I

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.560
<v Speaker 2>just want to move on. And he said, but there

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.200
<v Speaker 2>is another option for you. I said, okay, what's that. Well,

0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.280
<v Speaker 2>we can reduce that to aggravated sexual assault. I said,

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.359
<v Speaker 2>We've been here before. Why would I have waited another

0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:39.280
<v Speaker 2>six months to be in exactly the same position. Yeah,

0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:41.399
<v Speaker 2>But and he started to sell it to me that

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:42.920
<v Speaker 2>it would be somehow easier.

0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:43.400
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:45.240
<v Speaker 2>I could understand that if that was a defense, but

0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking you're on my side. And this is where

0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:52.440
<v Speaker 2>the normal silence felt like it was almost in some

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:57.720
<v Speaker 2>way elevated the whole mission, because for me, the prosecutor

0:22:57.760 --> 0:22:59.920
<v Speaker 2>should have been we want to give you a voice.

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.200
<v Speaker 2>I want to give you an opportunity. Yes, they want

0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:04.960
<v Speaker 2>to reduce a charge, but we believe that you can

0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:06.879
<v Speaker 2>do this. He did the opposite. It's going to be

0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:08.879
<v Speaker 2>easier for you. It means you don't have to be

0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:11.560
<v Speaker 2>re traumatized. So I just said, do you know who

0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.080
<v Speaker 2>I am? I said, have you listened to the call

0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:14.680
<v Speaker 2>that I made?

0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:14.840
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:16.359
<v Speaker 2>I haven't. I said, well, if you listen to that,

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.560
<v Speaker 2>you'd understand that I'm not an ordinary witness. Yes, I've

0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.679
<v Speaker 2>got police background. And he said, we're not used to

0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:27.800
<v Speaker 2>dealing with people like you. That comment, well, it also

0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:30.760
<v Speaker 2>broke my heart. I just thought, how many victims in

0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:34.320
<v Speaker 2>their most vulnerable state. They were abused in the vulnerable state,

0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 2>and now they're highly vulnerable and they're pliable. We can

0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:41.240
<v Speaker 2>almost put it on a platter, silver platter, that this

0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:45.000
<v Speaker 2>is easier for you. No, wonder our conviction rates are

0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:49.440
<v Speaker 2>at less than ten percent. Yeah, because if someone in

0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:53.360
<v Speaker 2>who's on my side, who's with me, going I think

0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:55.800
<v Speaker 2>that this will be easy for you, most will go Okay,

0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 2>then let's go down that route.

0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.199
<v Speaker 1>Well, you're expecting to be given the advice that you

0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:05.040
<v Speaker 1>can trust when you've put the metal before the courts.

0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:08.399
<v Speaker 1>You're the victim in this situation. You've got the prosecutor.

0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.920
<v Speaker 1>You think they're on your side. So if they're giving

0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:14.600
<v Speaker 1>advice and you don't know any different, you're likely to

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:15.879
<v Speaker 1>take their advice.

0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely because you're thinking that they know better. So I

0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:21.440
<v Speaker 2>said to him, But a female said to me in September,

0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:24.840
<v Speaker 2>we're going to go all the way. So why I

0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:26.639
<v Speaker 2>just thought it was interesting, not that I'm saying that

0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:27.680
<v Speaker 2>because he was a male.

0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think it's interesting. You've got two people from

0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:34.640
<v Speaker 1>the same office with different opinions on the same set effects.

0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:39.080
<v Speaker 2>And obviously I was frustrated because it was dragging on. However,

0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:42.840
<v Speaker 2>I just wish that the DPP would have even if

0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:45.919
<v Speaker 2>it's not them directly saying it, the support service is

0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:49.520
<v Speaker 2>with the woman going we're breaking your silence. We've got

0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:51.760
<v Speaker 2>enough evidence we can take it to the end. Let's

0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 2>give you support. If you are going to get retraumatized,

0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:57.920
<v Speaker 2>there's services out there that can help you. Not let's

0:24:58.000 --> 0:24:59.560
<v Speaker 2>just take the exit door because it's going to be

0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:02.760
<v Speaker 2>easy everyone. So I said, how's that going to benefit me?

0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 2>He gets no jail time, he gets his freedom. Where's

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:09.960
<v Speaker 2>my freedom? I'm carrying this for the rest of my life.

0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:13.280
<v Speaker 2>So why would I just lower the charge because it's

0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:15.800
<v Speaker 2>somehow easier on me. It's easier on him, not me.

0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:21.720
<v Speaker 1>You convinced the DPP that wanted to reduce the charges

0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:25.440
<v Speaker 1>for a lesser play to continue on for the trial.

0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:26.600
<v Speaker 1>What happened then?

0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:29.080
<v Speaker 2>So that was March and I was like, mistakes in

0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 2>the ground. I'm going all the way and you know

0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.840
<v Speaker 2>this was a decision for both me and my boys.

0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:38.640
<v Speaker 1>Can I ask how old you boys were at the time?

0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:46.399
<v Speaker 2>So they would have been nine, thirteen, fifteen, and eighteen.

0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:49.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so they're dealing with a lot saying their mum

0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:49.960
<v Speaker 1>get through.

0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:54.200
<v Speaker 2>Yes, But I thought, it's how I navigated. So if

0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:56.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a victim and I show them that mum's

0:25:56.720 --> 0:25:59.919
<v Speaker 2>got this. Thinking about my mom my, mum relied on

0:25:59.920 --> 0:26:02.840
<v Speaker 2>me heavily emotionally that I had to be her backbone.

0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:05.680
<v Speaker 2>What if this is given to me that I can

0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 2>show the boys that I don't need to rely on

0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:10.160
<v Speaker 2>you emotionally, you don't need to protect me. I've got this.

0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I can do this with you, but you don't have

0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:16.879
<v Speaker 2>to be the parent figure to me. And I also thought,

0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:20.520
<v Speaker 2>if I don't make this man accountable, what message does

0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:24.000
<v Speaker 2>that give to my four sons, is that, oh, well,

0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:27.240
<v Speaker 2>you can do bad things and we just stay silent.

0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:30.239
<v Speaker 1>It's a hard lesson for your kids, but a very

0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:34.320
<v Speaker 1>powerful lesson saying their mother go through this and understanding it.

0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:38.360
<v Speaker 2>So it was three way. It was to protect other

0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:40.919
<v Speaker 2>victims from it happening. I felt that was a duty

0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:43.720
<v Speaker 2>of care. It was for me to break my own silence,

0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:47.120
<v Speaker 2>and it was for my sons to know that if

0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:50.960
<v Speaker 2>you hurt someone, then you have to go through whatever

0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:54.879
<v Speaker 2>justice system puts you through and take accountability. So my

0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:59.200
<v Speaker 2>eldest son, when I first told him, his response was, Mom,

0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 2>I feel to be a man right now. I hear

0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 2>that it happens, but I never thought it had happened

0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:08.439
<v Speaker 2>to my own him because he's saying, this is not

0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:12.879
<v Speaker 2>what represents the male. So they were all beside me.

0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:14.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't tell them all straight away. I kind of

0:27:14.800 --> 0:27:18.880
<v Speaker 2>took my time through the ages, and obviously the last

0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:20.920
<v Speaker 2>one I only told him just before because I thought

0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>this is probably this is going to go public, and

0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:25.360
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want him to hear it somewhere or at

0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:28.800
<v Speaker 2>school in the small community. So from then on, the

0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:32.600
<v Speaker 2>trial was then set for May. We didn't know a

0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:36.200
<v Speaker 2>case number two. Again, I didn't realize this. It can

0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:39.520
<v Speaker 2>be between one and six cases and it just requires

0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:41.359
<v Speaker 2>one to just be you know, but.

0:27:41.400 --> 0:27:43.639
<v Speaker 1>They expect, they run the turn up and carry the

0:27:44.320 --> 0:27:45.680
<v Speaker 1>trauma and concern.

0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:48.359
<v Speaker 2>So you're waiting, You're going is it going ahead? Is

0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:50.560
<v Speaker 2>it not? And I was suffering. I have to say,

0:27:50.720 --> 0:27:54.679
<v Speaker 2>I was riddle with back pain. I wasn't eating, and

0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:56.240
<v Speaker 2>I was just trying to go, just get through this

0:27:56.520 --> 0:28:00.320
<v Speaker 2>while my whole body was clearly yeah it was. It

0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:03.960
<v Speaker 2>was feeling the effects. So May came, we were due

0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 2>to go to trial on the Monday. But I still

0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:09.640
<v Speaker 2>had no idea in my heart. I'd always said he's

0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:11.960
<v Speaker 2>going to play guilty. The last minute, I think it

0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:14.120
<v Speaker 2>was let's just see whether they she'll go all the way.

0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:17.359
<v Speaker 2>Let's just see where they shall go through and it

0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:20.400
<v Speaker 2>is right. It's like a game of chess, and when

0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:23.919
<v Speaker 2>it gets to the real crooks of the time, just

0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:27.120
<v Speaker 2>before that's when the chips are down. She's strong enough

0:28:27.119 --> 0:28:30.440
<v Speaker 2>to go through with this. So the Thursday I went

0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:33.240
<v Speaker 2>into the DPP and we went through everything, and it's

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:35.520
<v Speaker 2>more than just consent. They break it all down and

0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:39.360
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty hard to prove. I can see why our

0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:43.040
<v Speaker 2>conviction rates are so so low. I think for me,

0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:46.440
<v Speaker 2>because it was a professional in that space, that that

0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:51.520
<v Speaker 2>was definitely a breach that I felt compelled to follow

0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 2>through with. Not that if it had been a date

0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:56.800
<v Speaker 2>or something it would have been any easy bit. He

0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:59.640
<v Speaker 2>had a duty of care. So the Thursday we went in,

0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:01.960
<v Speaker 2>we went through all the brief of evidence and we

0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:04.920
<v Speaker 2>were there for two or three hours, and that's when

0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 2>it hit me. I'm like, am I really okay to

0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:09.720
<v Speaker 2>go through with this? He was giving me some questions

0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:11.240
<v Speaker 2>that might ask and I just saw.

0:29:12.800 --> 0:29:15.360
<v Speaker 1>Questions.

0:29:15.480 --> 0:29:19.160
<v Speaker 2>It was yeah, And again I'm like, you can be

0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:22.640
<v Speaker 2>strong and courageous, but nobody prepares you to go into

0:29:22.640 --> 0:29:25.520
<v Speaker 2>that witness box and face someone who's going to do

0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:27.880
<v Speaker 2>everything in his power to disprove you.

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, to discredit you. He used the fence time, with

0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:35.280
<v Speaker 1>the coming, with every trick in the book to discredit

0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:37.360
<v Speaker 1>your version of events.

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 2>So, I mean all they had was the freeze response.

0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:45.760
<v Speaker 2>That's the only that the not saying no and stopping

0:29:45.760 --> 0:29:48.760
<v Speaker 2>it in the moment is all that they had on me.

0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:53.200
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I had all of the the biological

0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:55.239
<v Speaker 2>responses I knew if I had have been asked. I mean,

0:29:55.280 --> 0:29:57.080
<v Speaker 2>I actually said to them, do you have somebody on

0:29:57.160 --> 0:29:59.600
<v Speaker 2>nervous systems who comes in and gives evidence to say

0:29:59.640 --> 0:30:03.040
<v Speaker 2>that this is tonic immobility? This is They said, oh,

0:30:03.080 --> 0:30:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I know, we don't have. I'm like, oh my god,

0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:07.920
<v Speaker 2>the justice system is so far behind, and I think

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:09.720
<v Speaker 2>it made me realize that I have to be my

0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:14.040
<v Speaker 2>own advocate. Yep. So I think I left the office.

0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:16.680
<v Speaker 2>It was two thirty and I said, it's got until

0:30:16.720 --> 0:30:19.160
<v Speaker 2>four o'clock today to change his plea.

0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:20.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so this is.

0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:22.520
<v Speaker 2>And I said, if not, we definitely going ahead on

0:30:22.520 --> 0:30:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Monday because the case has now been thrown out. And

0:30:27.400 --> 0:30:31.360
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutor said, again, Caroline, I know you've been asked before,

0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:34.640
<v Speaker 2>but defense has wrung me. And they said, are you

0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:40.000
<v Speaker 2>prepared to lower that charge? And I thought, Holy Moley,

0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:44.280
<v Speaker 2>and you know what my mission is, honor her No,

0:30:44.520 --> 0:30:46.880
<v Speaker 2>It's on the back of my T shirt. I've said

0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:50.080
<v Speaker 2>no in September, I've said no in March, and here

0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:53.160
<v Speaker 2>we are four days before and you're asking me again.

0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I know it's your job, but honor my no. Like

0:30:57.480 --> 0:30:59.920
<v Speaker 2>even the prosecution and the defense are not listening to me.

0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 2>He said he doesn't want to be known as a rapist.

0:31:03.680 --> 0:31:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Said oh, interesting one, maybe he should not go around

0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:10.280
<v Speaker 2>raping for people. Then, so he wanted that charge reduced,

0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 2>which meant he wouldn't have got prison time.

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:16.520
<v Speaker 1>And he wouldn't have had that, and the facts would

0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:19.200
<v Speaker 1>have been I would imagine with entering the play along

0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:21.800
<v Speaker 1>those lines. I'm only speculating here, but that would come

0:31:21.840 --> 0:31:26.640
<v Speaker 1>down to, oh, he just inappropriately touched you somewhere, and

0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the full criminality of what took place wouldn't have played

0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:32.680
<v Speaker 1>out in the greed said effects.

0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:35.240
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just a slip of a hand, Garry, that's

0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:37.720
<v Speaker 2>the thing like his what he did with his mouth

0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:40.840
<v Speaker 2>was very it was I mean that probably disgusted me

0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:44.840
<v Speaker 2>and humiliated me more than anything. The most degrading, So

0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:47.840
<v Speaker 2>he couldn't have had a defense that I didn't touch.

0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:51.680
<v Speaker 2>I didn't stuff right, it was an intentional act. So

0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:54.400
<v Speaker 2>they asked me again and I said, I stood up

0:31:54.760 --> 0:31:57.440
<v Speaker 2>and I gesticulated in my hand and I said, my

0:31:57.560 --> 0:32:00.680
<v Speaker 2>steak is in the ground. I'm going to take this man, Dan,

0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to go all the way. And he said,

0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:04.680
<v Speaker 2>I knew you would, but I've just been asked to

0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:07.520
<v Speaker 2>ask you again. I walked through the door at three

0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:10.840
<v Speaker 2>thirty five pm on the Thursday. I got a call

0:32:10.960 --> 0:32:14.520
<v Speaker 2>five minutes later. He's changed his play. Wow, which is

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:16.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of what I felt. So I just knew to

0:32:17.440 --> 0:32:21.680
<v Speaker 2>follow my own heart, advocate for myself, and that justice

0:32:21.720 --> 0:32:26.560
<v Speaker 2>would prevail him whatever way. And justice isn't custodial sentence

0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:30.719
<v Speaker 2>for everyone, you know, I wasn't. My recovery was not

0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:34.240
<v Speaker 2>determined by the sentence that he got, because, as we know,

0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:38.360
<v Speaker 2>the sentence never matches the crime. Mine was about getting

0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:41.360
<v Speaker 2>my voice back, standing with my stake and saying no,

0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:45.720
<v Speaker 2>this time, I'm not going to be swayed. Interestingly, when

0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:47.880
<v Speaker 2>I think about my father, buy another man telling me

0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:49.360
<v Speaker 2>that I need to go in a box and stay

0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.440
<v Speaker 2>quiet and make his life easier. I did that for

0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:54.160
<v Speaker 2>my dad and look where it got me.

0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:56.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and this, well, you didn't do it this time.

0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:57.640
<v Speaker 2>I didn't do it this time.

0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:01.080
<v Speaker 1>He got to half years, was it?

0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:03.280
<v Speaker 2>So it got two and a half years for the rate, Yeah,

0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:07.000
<v Speaker 2>eighteen months for the aggravated sexual assault running concurrently.

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:08.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:33:08.560 --> 0:33:11.800
<v Speaker 2>And the argument was the amount of time it serves

0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:15.840
<v Speaker 2>in prison. What I didn't realize is they're actually look

0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:18.760
<v Speaker 2>at other cases that are similar. I wasn't aware of

0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 2>this when it comes to sentencing, and.

0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:24.120
<v Speaker 1>That's a guideline for their sensing what the similar type

0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:27.440
<v Speaker 1>of defense with the same the criminality what that person got.

0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:30.400
<v Speaker 2>So that was the argument that they debated on for

0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:34.440
<v Speaker 2>what seemed like forever. But there wasn't a situation identical

0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:36.800
<v Speaker 2>to mine. It's like selling a house. I wonder what

0:33:36.800 --> 0:33:38.320
<v Speaker 2>my house is worth, where we'll look at all the

0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:41.080
<v Speaker 2>houses in the street. That house is not like my house.

0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:44.160
<v Speaker 2>So it wasn't a professional it wasn't in a room

0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:47.800
<v Speaker 2>where there was a duty of care. So it's like,

0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:50.760
<v Speaker 2>how can you compare my case to that case that

0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:53.640
<v Speaker 2>was more violent? So they negated it if that was

0:33:53.680 --> 0:33:56.520
<v Speaker 2>more violent, but yours was professional, the more like for

0:33:56.800 --> 0:34:01.360
<v Speaker 2>like For me, it seemed ludicrous fans wanted six months,

0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:04.440
<v Speaker 2>We wanted more. He got eight months.

0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:09.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well from it's easy to say when you haven't

0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:11.359
<v Speaker 1>been the person that's the victim of the crime, but

0:34:13.000 --> 0:34:16.359
<v Speaker 1>you can't hold on to the sensing. I think that

0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:19.400
<v Speaker 1>can be damaging to people, and I've seen that obviously

0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:23.440
<v Speaker 1>with homicide, the sentencing that people get the families of

0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:26.320
<v Speaker 1>the victim who are always looking for what the sense.

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:28.319
<v Speaker 1>But a lot of people say, look, that's not what

0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:31.239
<v Speaker 1>it's about. What it's about is that this person has

0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:34.239
<v Speaker 1>been made to be accountable. What length of time that

0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:36.160
<v Speaker 1>person spends in jail is not up to me. It's

0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:39.840
<v Speaker 1>up to the courts. But good on you for standing

0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:43.440
<v Speaker 1>your ground on that, because as a former cop, you

0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:46.439
<v Speaker 1>would have looked at all the possibilities of what could

0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:48.640
<v Speaker 1>have gone wrong there. And you know, we talked the

0:34:48.640 --> 0:34:51.000
<v Speaker 1>freeze response, and I want to break that down and

0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:53.920
<v Speaker 1>really explain that so people have an understanding of what

0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:57.759
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about there, because as we mentioned in part one,

0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:01.080
<v Speaker 1>and we've talked about it and alluded to the questions

0:35:01.080 --> 0:35:03.399
<v Speaker 1>that people would ask, why didn't you just say that,

0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:07.279
<v Speaker 1>why did you stay there when this occurred? Can you

0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:10.759
<v Speaker 1>explain it? In your words, and then let's give a

0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:14.239
<v Speaker 1>detailed explanation of what this freeze response we're referring to

0:35:14.400 --> 0:35:15.279
<v Speaker 1>is all about.

0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:18.840
<v Speaker 2>So it's a nervous system response. So you have fight,

0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:23.320
<v Speaker 2>flight freeze, and fawn. Fawn is like the people, please,

0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:26.360
<v Speaker 2>I just give in. I just don't speak up for myself.

0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Fight obviously speaks for itself. Flight run away freeze is

0:35:31.400 --> 0:35:35.759
<v Speaker 2>when fight and flight isn't available in that moment. It's

0:35:35.760 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 2>a survival response. You know, you could look upon YouTube

0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:43.200
<v Speaker 2>im parlor chase by a lion and you'll watch the

0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:46.960
<v Speaker 2>lion takes the imparlor down, and before it gets eaten,

0:35:47.040 --> 0:35:50.920
<v Speaker 2>the imparlor would start to play dead. It slows its

0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:53.440
<v Speaker 2>breathing to the point where its ribs are hardly moving,

0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:57.319
<v Speaker 2>its eyes are stared. So it's called tonic immobility. It's biology.

0:35:57.560 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 1>I actually watched the imparlor on YouTube researching for this

0:36:02.200 --> 0:36:04.680
<v Speaker 1>and seeing what happened. Then. I don't know how it

0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:07.000
<v Speaker 1>led me there, but it led me to the animal

0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:08.760
<v Speaker 1>being attacked than the phrase response.

0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:12.400
<v Speaker 2>So when you think about its intelligence, So if you

0:36:12.440 --> 0:36:14.959
<v Speaker 2>can watch a video and see what that imparlor did

0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:17.880
<v Speaker 2>and that one did escape, if you remember The difference

0:36:18.000 --> 0:36:20.960
<v Speaker 2>is when you go into freeze and you are almost

0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:26.719
<v Speaker 2>you're immobile, so you think about the body's response is

0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:30.600
<v Speaker 2>to survive, so it will shut everything down. So the

0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:34.480
<v Speaker 2>frontal lobal part of the brain goes offline, so thinking,

0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:39.319
<v Speaker 2>which is why often when police investigators actually to go

0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:42.120
<v Speaker 2>through your story, things might not add up and it

0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:46.000
<v Speaker 2>might not be a sequential story because this part's gone offline,

0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:50.200
<v Speaker 2>so everything slows down. It's about how do I just

0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:55.720
<v Speaker 2>stay alive? So if we're wired to survive, our body

0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:58.440
<v Speaker 2>gives us that response so that you can go, I

0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.000
<v Speaker 2>can just shut everything down in this moment and just

0:37:01.760 --> 0:37:04.400
<v Speaker 2>allow him to do by, you know, using that term,

0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:08.080
<v Speaker 2>because if I fight back, there's a possibility I could

0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:10.960
<v Speaker 2>be killed if the imparlor would have started trying to

0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:14.040
<v Speaker 2>run away, right, So we use that as the same analogy.

0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:17.759
<v Speaker 2>And do you think of domestic violence the most dangerous

0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:21.000
<v Speaker 2>time is when a woman tries to leave, So same

0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:23.239
<v Speaker 2>as me. What if I'd have bolted up right in

0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:25.520
<v Speaker 2>his room and said, what the hell are you doing?

0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:28.920
<v Speaker 2>You just did get me out of here. The body's

0:37:28.960 --> 0:37:31.080
<v Speaker 2>going I'm not even going to send you there, because

0:37:31.120 --> 0:37:33.719
<v Speaker 2>it's a possibility that you could get harmed, so we're

0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:37.120
<v Speaker 2>going to stay there. So when people understand, and it

0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:40.239
<v Speaker 2>can happen in conversation or in conflict, you might lose

0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:42.279
<v Speaker 2>your words or you might stand there and go, I

0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:44.799
<v Speaker 2>wonder why I can't say anything. So it's not just

0:37:45.239 --> 0:37:49.520
<v Speaker 2>in that situation, anytime when you're under threat, okay, but

0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the issue with that is yourself and the public go why.

0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:57.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, that's a question that I'm sure would have

0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.919
<v Speaker 1>gone through your mind if you went to in front

0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:04.600
<v Speaker 1>of a jury or that being prosecuted, people would be

0:38:04.640 --> 0:38:07.480
<v Speaker 1>asking that question. And unless we understand and I know

0:38:07.560 --> 0:38:10.319
<v Speaker 1>what you're talking about with the free his response, and

0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:14.160
<v Speaker 1>I have seen that in policing aspects, but that's not

0:38:14.239 --> 0:38:18.680
<v Speaker 1>widely known. It's not widely people don't sort of accept it.

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:21.439
<v Speaker 1>Then that change is the narrative when the police take

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:24.200
<v Speaker 1>the first response, and then that goes through the courts.

0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.960
<v Speaker 2>And I wonder if we could educate and change so

0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:32.480
<v Speaker 2>people ask questions from logic. Oh, these are some of

0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:36.319
<v Speaker 2>the questions. I got asked, Well, you weren't blooded, you

0:38:36.360 --> 0:38:40.000
<v Speaker 2>weren't bruised, you weren't fighting. Why don't you just enjoy it?

0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:43.360
<v Speaker 2>It's like, are you kidding me. Yeah, that's men saying

0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:46.360
<v Speaker 2>why didn't you poke him in the eye? Now that

0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 2>seems a logical question. Remember, the frontal lobal part of

0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.040
<v Speaker 2>the brain is shut down. That's where our logic and

0:38:53.120 --> 0:38:57.680
<v Speaker 2>reasoning lifts. So you're not talking logic, you're talking survival.

0:38:58.080 --> 0:39:01.359
<v Speaker 2>But there's no education in schools in relationships about what

0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:03.799
<v Speaker 2>does that look like and when we can start to

0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:07.120
<v Speaker 2>change the narrative rather than saying why didn't you do that?

0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Versus your body did everything it needed to do to

0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:12.839
<v Speaker 2>get you through. And honestly, Garret, it's the only way

0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:15.160
<v Speaker 2>that I got rid of the shame. It's almost like

0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:18.600
<v Speaker 2>a coach myself through it. You know, in psychology there's

0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:21.719
<v Speaker 2>theory called assault therough and you'll sit something in a

0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:24.160
<v Speaker 2>chair and you'll have a conversation with it. I did

0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:26.799
<v Speaker 2>that with shame. I'm like, what the heck are you

0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:28.960
<v Speaker 2>here to teach me? And I had to unpack this

0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:32.080
<v Speaker 2>and when I looked at my body actually kept me alive,

0:39:32.840 --> 0:39:36.480
<v Speaker 2>I started to, rather than hate it, go wow, you

0:39:36.560 --> 0:39:39.360
<v Speaker 2>did automatically what you needed to do to get me

0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:42.839
<v Speaker 2>out of that room without being harmed. Thank you?

0:39:43.440 --> 0:39:46.480
<v Speaker 1>Were you trying to process what happened to you after

0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:51.560
<v Speaker 1>you're very aware of the phreeze response. Now, did you

0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:54.839
<v Speaker 1>have to educate yourself or learn what happened there were

0:39:55.120 --> 0:39:57.839
<v Speaker 1>Did you walk over there and just so confused by

0:39:58.000 --> 0:40:00.719
<v Speaker 1>the whole whole thing? When did you become aware of

0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:03.799
<v Speaker 1>the phrase response and the in depth understanding that you

0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:04.560
<v Speaker 1>have of it there?

0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:07.799
<v Speaker 2>So I knew about it, so it studied it because

0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:10.719
<v Speaker 2>I've worked in trauma for a while. At the time,

0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I was in a year long container with Gabon Marte,

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:18.319
<v Speaker 2>who is my idol. I love that man, So I

0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:21.160
<v Speaker 2>was already I've been studying for six months all about

0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:25.319
<v Speaker 2>somatic work. So again, it's interesting it happened to me

0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:29.000
<v Speaker 2>while I was in that container learning about nervous systems.

0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:31.000
<v Speaker 1>When you say in that container.

0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:35.600
<v Speaker 2>As in online or learning training under his compassionate and I'm.

0:40:35.400 --> 0:40:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Just picturing you sitting in the container. But that kay,

0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:39.840
<v Speaker 1>we've clarified that. I understand.

0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:43.960
<v Speaker 2>No, that'd be quite nice in the container, Gabon mate.

0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:47.799
<v Speaker 2>So I knew about the phrase response, but it's very

0:40:47.840 --> 0:40:53.080
<v Speaker 2>different reading it and understanding it intellectually and embodying it.

0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:56.560
<v Speaker 2>So it's like I when I went through that, I

0:40:56.600 --> 0:41:00.520
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, now I get it, because everything slowed

0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:02.640
<v Speaker 2>down in slow motion. Remember I said I was screaming

0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:05.640
<v Speaker 2>from the inside, but nothing came out. And I'm going

0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.279
<v Speaker 2>to take this one step further because you've got the biology,

0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:14.360
<v Speaker 2>which we understand is survival regardless, it's wired into us. However,

0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:18.000
<v Speaker 2>let's take me back to childhood. A question I needed

0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:20.440
<v Speaker 2>to ask myself was because I knew inside of me,

0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:23.680
<v Speaker 2>the part of me that was screaming was not my

0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:28.240
<v Speaker 2>fifty one year old self. It was ancient, she was little.

0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Even the panic in the voice, it wasn't me. So

0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I had to say, where did someone teach me to

0:41:35.960 --> 0:41:40.880
<v Speaker 2>stay quiet when I've been harmed abused? And then it

0:41:41.000 --> 0:41:44.759
<v Speaker 2>opened up a Pandora's box to the four year old

0:41:44.760 --> 0:41:48.239
<v Speaker 2>part of me that had been woken up in the night.

0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:52.319
<v Speaker 2>So let's just put the two traumas together. In my

0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:55.279
<v Speaker 2>childhood bed in the night, in the dark, woken up

0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:59.879
<v Speaker 2>on a massage table, eyes closed in the dark. Yeah,

0:42:00.400 --> 0:42:04.480
<v Speaker 2>so what he did in that room literally re enacted

0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:07.879
<v Speaker 2>the very first time I was abused as a child.

0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:10.560
<v Speaker 2>So it was literally that almost like a cab and

0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:15.319
<v Speaker 2>copy experience. So, yes, biology puts you into freeze when

0:42:15.360 --> 0:42:18.320
<v Speaker 2>fight and flight isn't available. However, what if you've already

0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:22.840
<v Speaker 2>been trained as a little girl, that you have screamed

0:42:22.840 --> 0:42:26.200
<v Speaker 2>saved for the first time, and someone's covered up your

0:42:26.560 --> 0:42:30.520
<v Speaker 2>nose or someone's so two things I think were going

0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:34.359
<v Speaker 2>on for me. I've been here before, a long time ago.

0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:37.600
<v Speaker 2>That feels so true. I feel that sadness in my

0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:41.160
<v Speaker 2>heart when I say this four year old has been

0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:44.640
<v Speaker 2>suppressed a whole life, and now she's been put in

0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:51.360
<v Speaker 2>a room with an opportunity to rewrite the story.

0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:53.080
<v Speaker 1>The trauma, that what happened to you later in life

0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:55.319
<v Speaker 1>as a fifty one year old. Did that open the

0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:58.040
<v Speaker 1>trauma the memories of what happened to you as a

0:42:58.080 --> 0:42:59.280
<v Speaker 1>four year old.

0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:03.120
<v Speaker 2>I was inquisitive. I'm like, if I was screaming and

0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:09.000
<v Speaker 2>nothing was coming out, that's obviously something that I've done

0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:12.799
<v Speaker 2>many times over, because I mean, you screaming. You know,

0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:15.200
<v Speaker 2>if you're under threat or in danger, you would scream.

0:43:15.280 --> 0:43:17.520
<v Speaker 2>The only time you would not scream is if something's

0:43:17.520 --> 0:43:22.600
<v Speaker 2>happened to force you to stay quiet. There's you know,

0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:26.680
<v Speaker 2>the danger gets worse, it escalates, so it did. So

0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:30.240
<v Speaker 2>imagine now I'm in the middle, and I'm now wedged

0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:33.440
<v Speaker 2>in a sandwich between two traumas, the current one with

0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:36.520
<v Speaker 2>the massage therapist yep, and the four year old, and

0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:39.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, like that would have been enough to tip

0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:42.000
<v Speaker 2>me over the age, Like where do I even begin?

0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:45.319
<v Speaker 2>Do I deal with this one? Do I deal with

0:43:45.360 --> 0:43:49.920
<v Speaker 2>this one? And how dealing with them is gonna How

0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:51.560
<v Speaker 2>is it going to get me through the court case?

0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Because if I go deep diving into my trauma, will

0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:58.879
<v Speaker 2>I be then, you know, just courageous and strong enough

0:43:58.880 --> 0:44:00.640
<v Speaker 2>to be able to get through the court case. So

0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:03.200
<v Speaker 2>it was like a bit of a balancing act. I

0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:06.360
<v Speaker 2>want to understand because this is a healing, but I

0:44:06.360 --> 0:44:09.319
<v Speaker 2>don't want it to derail me so that I'm not

0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:14.360
<v Speaker 2>prepared then to go through that. But it was necessary.

0:44:14.520 --> 0:44:18.239
<v Speaker 2>It was that revealed that and if I didn't deal

0:44:18.280 --> 0:44:20.200
<v Speaker 2>with that, there's no way I could have healed that.

0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:23.840
<v Speaker 1>If you imagine the two do you have specific memories

0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:25.879
<v Speaker 1>of what happened to you as a four year old

0:44:25.920 --> 0:44:27.799
<v Speaker 1>and the person responsible for him.

0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:32.359
<v Speaker 2>I did a lot of healing around it. And what

0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:38.360
<v Speaker 2>happens with the mind is when something is so devastating, shocking,

0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:41.600
<v Speaker 2>the trauma is so bad, the mind tries to forget,

0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:44.880
<v Speaker 2>but the body remembers. So if you notice throughout this interview,

0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I've gone, oh, I feel that in my body. I

0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:48.840
<v Speaker 2>feel that in my heart. So the body gives us

0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:51.520
<v Speaker 2>a signal, and then the mind tries to understand it.

0:44:51.560 --> 0:44:55.960
<v Speaker 2>I wonder why that signal's gone off, right, So it

0:44:56.040 --> 0:44:58.359
<v Speaker 2>stays in our body. You've probably heard of the book

0:44:58.400 --> 0:45:02.239
<v Speaker 2>called The Body Keeps the Score. Yeah, so everything is

0:45:02.280 --> 0:45:06.520
<v Speaker 2>stored in here. But a lot of very traumatized children

0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:10.640
<v Speaker 2>will say as adults, I don't remember my childhood. Your

0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:13.360
<v Speaker 2>body does. I just haven't recalled it up here first,

0:45:13.760 --> 0:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>so I know that I was woken up in the night. Now.

0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:21.640
<v Speaker 2>I used to say, oh my goodness, I am such

0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:25.279
<v Speaker 2>a light sleeper. I didn't know why until I did

0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:29.040
<v Speaker 2>this investigation, because I'm like, I'm only a light sleeper

0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:33.960
<v Speaker 2>because someone's come and invaded my sleep and I need

0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:36.320
<v Speaker 2>to be on high alerts. Of course, when the babies

0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:40.240
<v Speaker 2>were little, it was great because any sound I woke up.

0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:43.560
<v Speaker 2>But imagine living a life where you've probably never had

0:45:43.560 --> 0:45:47.440
<v Speaker 2>a full sleep because she's literally waiting in anticipation that

0:45:47.440 --> 0:45:49.839
<v Speaker 2>that door might open and someone might come in and

0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:53.000
<v Speaker 2>harm me. That's exactly what the massage therapis did. I

0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:56.719
<v Speaker 2>went into a room and needed exactly to me, So

0:45:56.760 --> 0:46:00.319
<v Speaker 2>it was a family member. It was extremely confront and

0:46:00.320 --> 0:46:02.319
<v Speaker 2>then you have to go back and go, was my

0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:05.319
<v Speaker 2>whole childhood just a lie? The memory that I have

0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:09.760
<v Speaker 2>of childhood. So it's almost like you're wiping the slate

0:46:09.840 --> 0:46:14.839
<v Speaker 2>clean and questioning everything everything, No wonder, I was petrified

0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:18.640
<v Speaker 2>of that person, No wonder. I used to shrink around them.

0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:22.760
<v Speaker 2>So in some sense it allowed everything to make sense,

0:46:23.040 --> 0:46:27.560
<v Speaker 2>But in another sense, it was absolutely devastating to imagine

0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:31.720
<v Speaker 2>what that little girl went through went through. But then

0:46:32.000 --> 0:46:33.879
<v Speaker 2>you can only turn it into a positive and go.

0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:37.440
<v Speaker 2>That's why I was an amazing police officer. That's why

0:46:37.520 --> 0:46:40.560
<v Speaker 2>I you know, I'm really good with clients now because

0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:45.800
<v Speaker 2>I've been so curious with myself and unpacked and investigated

0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:48.600
<v Speaker 2>that I can now pass on that wisdom and help

0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:53.200
<v Speaker 2>other people. And the question, the question I needed to

0:46:53.200 --> 0:46:55.719
<v Speaker 2>ask was where did all this begin? Because it did

0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:57.880
<v Speaker 2>not begin in that massage room. So I call it

0:46:57.920 --> 0:47:01.160
<v Speaker 2>the crime before the crime. That was a crime, it

0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:04.279
<v Speaker 2>raped me, But where was the first crime that led

0:47:04.320 --> 0:47:06.880
<v Speaker 2>me to that? And that was the childhood? So unless

0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:09.440
<v Speaker 2>you look at the crime before the crime, which was

0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:14.120
<v Speaker 2>who primed me to react, play dead, to stay still,

0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:15.440
<v Speaker 2>not move a muscle.

0:47:15.880 --> 0:47:18.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a lot of unpecking to do, isn't it. I

0:47:19.760 --> 0:47:22.520
<v Speaker 1>think full credit to you that you can talk about

0:47:22.560 --> 0:47:26.319
<v Speaker 1>this and educate people and come through what you've been

0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:33.000
<v Speaker 1>through and still have a positive, positive outlook. Purpose. Let's hypothetically,

0:47:33.560 --> 0:47:36.719
<v Speaker 1>if you didn't make this complaint, how do you think

0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:37.959
<v Speaker 1>you would deal with it now?

0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:43.239
<v Speaker 2>I felt like what happened to me was allowing me

0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:46.520
<v Speaker 2>to birth this mission. So it was all part of it.

0:47:47.360 --> 0:47:49.800
<v Speaker 2>And I think the freedom I got from then speaking

0:47:51.840 --> 0:47:54.560
<v Speaker 2>that was my healing. So what if I couldn't speak now,

0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:58.439
<v Speaker 2>if I wouldn't have gone down the justice path, would

0:47:58.480 --> 0:48:01.799
<v Speaker 2>have I still been able to tell my possibly, but

0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:04.480
<v Speaker 2>not in the rawness and the truth of what this

0:48:04.560 --> 0:48:09.200
<v Speaker 2>story is now presented. But I think what's missing along

0:48:09.200 --> 0:48:11.520
<v Speaker 2>the way is, and you talked into this earlier when

0:48:11.560 --> 0:48:14.320
<v Speaker 2>we talked about justice, I had to be really honest

0:48:14.360 --> 0:48:17.800
<v Speaker 2>with myself. If I get so attached to the outcome,

0:48:17.880 --> 0:48:22.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm then relying on that to determine how I heal,

0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:25.680
<v Speaker 2>which is giving away my power. He's already taken my power,

0:48:26.239 --> 0:48:28.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, to get that back. It was who do

0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:30.520
<v Speaker 2>I want to be at the end of this carry

0:48:31.320 --> 0:48:33.439
<v Speaker 2>Who's the woman I want to be? Well, she wants

0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:35.960
<v Speaker 2>to make sure that she never gets silenced again. Her

0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:40.640
<v Speaker 2>voice matters, and I'm a beautiful role model to my sons,

0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:44.000
<v Speaker 2>to the community. So I almost had to pack that. Yes,

0:48:44.640 --> 0:48:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I felt for his you know, for him to take

0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:51.080
<v Speaker 2>full accountability whether they did or not. Personally, he needed

0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:53.880
<v Speaker 2>to go to prison. I felt that deeply, and I

0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:57.400
<v Speaker 2>believed he would, But I wasn't attached to the outcome.

0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:59.800
<v Speaker 2>It was who's the woman that I'm walking to a

0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:02.120
<v Speaker 2>at the end of this eighteen month journey. It's her.

0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:05.520
<v Speaker 2>He's there and I'm focusing on her.

0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:09.319
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think by having that mindset is a much

0:49:09.360 --> 0:49:16.239
<v Speaker 1>more positive way of approaching it than if you like anger, revenge,

0:49:16.640 --> 0:49:19.719
<v Speaker 1>a whole range of emotions that could come from being

0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:22.560
<v Speaker 1>a victim of a perpetrator like that, but that will

0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:27.279
<v Speaker 1>destroy you. And I've seen that happen to victims of crime,

0:49:27.320 --> 0:49:30.719
<v Speaker 1>where that they're being destroyed not once but twice because

0:49:30.719 --> 0:49:33.040
<v Speaker 1>they're hanging on to that anger. But you seem to

0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:34.879
<v Speaker 1>have found the way through it.

0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Well. I also feel like if I have got anger

0:49:37.680 --> 0:49:40.719
<v Speaker 2>and resentment I'm harboring towards him. He still then got

0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:42.120
<v Speaker 2>some controls control.

0:49:42.680 --> 0:49:46.879
<v Speaker 1>You know, we had Amanda Knocks on the podcast and

0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:51.960
<v Speaker 1>she talked about forgiveness and kindness, and she said, the

0:49:51.960 --> 0:49:54.200
<v Speaker 1>one thing I could do in the horrible situation I

0:49:54.200 --> 0:49:56.280
<v Speaker 1>was in, the one thing that no one could control

0:49:56.400 --> 0:49:59.560
<v Speaker 1>was kindness. Now I'm not suggesting this for your situation,

0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:02.080
<v Speaker 1>but I thought that was a really powerful way of

0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:07.640
<v Speaker 1>describing how you can control your thoughts, your directions, and

0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:10.560
<v Speaker 1>your emotions. And she said, well, they can put me

0:50:10.600 --> 0:50:12.640
<v Speaker 1>in jail for a crime I didn't commit. They can

0:50:12.719 --> 0:50:14.319
<v Speaker 1>do this to me, they can do that to me,

0:50:14.360 --> 0:50:16.200
<v Speaker 1>but they can't take away my kindness. So I'm just

0:50:16.239 --> 0:50:18.880
<v Speaker 1>going to be kind. And that really resonated with me.

0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:21.520
<v Speaker 1>I thought it was a very powerful way absolutely taking

0:50:21.560 --> 0:50:22.759
<v Speaker 1>control of a situation.

0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:26.359
<v Speaker 2>And with bitterness and resentment, it's like saying, I'm going

0:50:26.440 --> 0:50:30.200
<v Speaker 2>to give you a pill of poison, you know, and

0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:32.879
<v Speaker 2>expect you but I'm swallowing that pill of poison every

0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:36.280
<v Speaker 2>single day, expecting you to be affected. Now, I couldn't

0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:39.560
<v Speaker 2>control how he showed up in the world, and that's

0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:43.719
<v Speaker 2>not anything to do with me. That's his journey, his trajectory.

0:50:43.840 --> 0:50:48.360
<v Speaker 2>So for me and forgiveness is a really great topic

0:50:48.400 --> 0:50:50.560
<v Speaker 2>to speak about because people say, oh, you can't move

0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:54.000
<v Speaker 2>on unless you're forgiven. Forgiveness for me was forgiving that

0:50:54.080 --> 0:50:57.920
<v Speaker 2>little girl who believed that she couldn't speak, forgiving the

0:50:58.000 --> 0:51:00.480
<v Speaker 2>part of me that went into that room and believed

0:51:00.840 --> 0:51:04.080
<v Speaker 2>that the only way out was to go limp, because

0:51:04.120 --> 0:51:06.160
<v Speaker 2>that's the part of me that needed to heal. So

0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I forgived her. I forgive the part of me that

0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:13.600
<v Speaker 2>thought it was my fault. So forgiveness for me is

0:51:14.520 --> 0:51:17.200
<v Speaker 2>every single version of me. It's actually got nothing to

0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:17.759
<v Speaker 2>do with him.

0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we talked of Cameron who wanting to raise it

0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:25.680
<v Speaker 1>about just because no it's not said, that doesn't mean consent.

0:51:26.000 --> 0:51:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to talk us through that.

0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:31.120
<v Speaker 2>I think the whole consent culture needs to be overhauled.

0:51:31.640 --> 0:51:34.440
<v Speaker 2>So the reason I talk about honor her no is

0:51:34.520 --> 0:51:38.040
<v Speaker 2>in the absence of a no, meaning she may be

0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:41.200
<v Speaker 2>under the influence of alcohol, she may be feeling threatened,

0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:45.160
<v Speaker 2>coherst all of those things that suppress her ability to

0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:49.400
<v Speaker 2>say yes. So in the absence of a no, it

0:51:49.480 --> 0:51:51.920
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean it's a yes. And I think this is

0:51:51.960 --> 0:51:58.120
<v Speaker 2>a really great education tool for boys and girls to understand, Hi,

0:51:58.200 --> 0:52:00.920
<v Speaker 2>I've got a right to say no, can be revoked

0:52:00.920 --> 0:52:03.440
<v Speaker 2>at any time. I can be with a man in

0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.680
<v Speaker 2>a situation say yes at the beginning, but halfway through

0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:09.960
<v Speaker 2>this doesn't feel safe for me, and I can speak

0:52:10.040 --> 0:52:14.800
<v Speaker 2>up anytime. So if someone I think, with my court case,

0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:17.720
<v Speaker 2>I wanted the justice system to understand that just because

0:52:17.760 --> 0:52:20.359
<v Speaker 2>I was too afraid to say no, it doesn't mean

0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:24.200
<v Speaker 2>that I was a willing party. I wasn't willing. I

0:52:24.200 --> 0:52:26.200
<v Speaker 2>mean straight away, there's an imbalance of power if we're

0:52:26.200 --> 0:52:30.839
<v Speaker 2>to use my example, So the consensual act together has

0:52:30.880 --> 0:52:33.640
<v Speaker 2>to be something that's enthusiastic, and people say, well, what

0:52:33.680 --> 0:52:36.400
<v Speaker 2>does that mean? Well, we have to read body language.

0:52:36.600 --> 0:52:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Someone's going, yeah, that's okay. I mean, you know straight

0:52:39.680 --> 0:52:41.560
<v Speaker 2>away you can see that she's GrITT in her teeth

0:52:42.320 --> 0:52:44.839
<v Speaker 2>and she's and it's asking her like, what's happening for

0:52:44.880 --> 0:52:47.200
<v Speaker 2>you right now? Well, I actually feel scared. I mean

0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:50.239
<v Speaker 2>when you think about every single woman knows another woman

0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:52.719
<v Speaker 2>who's been sexually abused or assaulted, So you've got a

0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:57.040
<v Speaker 2>walking population of women who traumatized. It's going to be

0:52:57.080 --> 0:53:00.680
<v Speaker 2>really traumatized in an Internet environment. So we want to

0:53:00.719 --> 0:53:04.040
<v Speaker 2>equip ourselves to say, if she's had an experience in

0:53:04.080 --> 0:53:07.080
<v Speaker 2>the past where she's been violated, how can I create

0:53:07.160 --> 0:53:10.120
<v Speaker 2>safety for her, which is, how do you let me

0:53:10.200 --> 0:53:13.080
<v Speaker 2>know you're not okay? She might say, well, I actually

0:53:13.080 --> 0:53:16.920
<v Speaker 2>struggle to say anything, so I'm just going to tap you, yeah,

0:53:16.960 --> 0:53:19.040
<v Speaker 2>on the arm. I mean it seems like it's back

0:53:19.120 --> 0:53:23.040
<v Speaker 2>in primary school. But you know, I think men have

0:53:23.120 --> 0:53:26.680
<v Speaker 2>to understand that the absence of this no women often

0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:30.840
<v Speaker 2>like me, who've maybe been silenced, it gets trapped. Yeah,

0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:34.280
<v Speaker 2>and we pretend that we're okay because centuries ago, women

0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:37.080
<v Speaker 2>and it still happens in this many cultures are there

0:53:37.080 --> 0:53:39.200
<v Speaker 2>to serve her man as long as he's happy.

0:53:39.640 --> 0:53:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, we're talking off camera marriages and yeah, what we

0:53:44.080 --> 0:53:46.320
<v Speaker 1>signed in the ninety three.

0:53:46.360 --> 0:53:48.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm saying in nineteen ninety three in Michigan, in

0:53:48.840 --> 0:53:54.439
<v Speaker 2>the USA, marital rape was still accepted nineteen ninety three.

0:53:54.560 --> 0:53:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you're talking that's only thirty three years ago.

0:53:57.440 --> 0:54:00.440
<v Speaker 2>So I think this is so much more complex, and

0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:04.640
<v Speaker 2>we're actually breaking down a culture of the role that

0:54:04.680 --> 0:54:09.360
<v Speaker 2>women were here to play. Go back centuries. She serves

0:54:09.360 --> 0:54:12.560
<v Speaker 2>as a husband. You know, women were objectified. They never

0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:15.360
<v Speaker 2>had a voice, We never had voices, we were suppressed.

0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:18.600
<v Speaker 2>So it's almost like we're now retrieving the very thing

0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:21.960
<v Speaker 2>that was taken from us. You know, you're my property.

0:54:22.960 --> 0:54:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm married to you. Of course, when I want sex

0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:28.880
<v Speaker 2>on I click my fingers, you provide. So women are

0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:32.680
<v Speaker 2>now waking up going, oh, I have a choice, and

0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:35.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm serious and I say that they literally I can

0:54:35.440 --> 0:54:37.000
<v Speaker 2>say no. I mean, how sad.

0:54:37.400 --> 0:54:40.719
<v Speaker 1>That is very sad. And I think, you know, on

0:54:40.760 --> 0:54:43.480
<v Speaker 1>the issue of consent, and I look at it the

0:54:43.560 --> 0:54:46.480
<v Speaker 1>complication of it, it doesn't have to be that complicated.

0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:49.719
<v Speaker 1>As you said that it's fairly obvious. If someone's not

0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:54.160
<v Speaker 1>hasn't said no, it doesn't mean they're participating in sexual

0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:59.600
<v Speaker 1>activity that's been played out, and I think common sense

0:55:00.040 --> 0:55:02.240
<v Speaker 1>had come into play. Common sense is not that common

0:55:02.400 --> 0:55:08.480
<v Speaker 1>these days, unfortunately, but education and make sure that in

0:55:08.560 --> 0:55:12.279
<v Speaker 1>whatever situation you're in, from a man's point of view,

0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:15.680
<v Speaker 1>the woman should feel safe and vice versa. You know,

0:55:16.000 --> 0:55:19.799
<v Speaker 1>there's a changing world vice versa that just you need

0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:22.520
<v Speaker 1>the other person that feels safe in that environment.

0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:25.719
<v Speaker 2>But you imagine what if the man will use them

0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:28.040
<v Speaker 2>as examples, well, say, you know it works both ways.

0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:30.959
<v Speaker 2>Has grown up in a home where his mother tried

0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:36.279
<v Speaker 2>to say no. Like me, her no was never a possibility.

0:55:36.840 --> 0:55:39.759
<v Speaker 2>So you've got the girl who's seen that knows not

0:55:39.800 --> 0:55:43.400
<v Speaker 2>an option. He's seen his father override his mom's no.

0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:48.839
<v Speaker 2>So we talked about culture generational trauma. We're talking about,

0:55:48.960 --> 0:55:50.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, rewriting.

0:55:51.040 --> 0:55:53.400
<v Speaker 1>You're just creating an image of my head of someone

0:55:53.840 --> 0:55:58.160
<v Speaker 1>coming home drunk and wanting to get with the wife,

0:55:58.160 --> 0:56:01.239
<v Speaker 1>and the wife saying no. Young children sitting there saying

0:56:01.280 --> 0:56:04.399
<v Speaker 1>what's gone on? And the wife submits because to keep

0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:05.200
<v Speaker 1>placing the house.

0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, keep the peace exactly, because that's what we were

0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:10.280
<v Speaker 2>trained to do. You just hit you just keep the peace.

0:56:10.320 --> 0:56:14.000
<v Speaker 2>So let's give him what he needs to get him

0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:17.080
<v Speaker 2>off my back, to quieten him down. But what's the cost.

0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:21.600
<v Speaker 2>The cost is a woman is self betraying herself over

0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:24.399
<v Speaker 2>and over and over and abandoning that part that says

0:56:24.440 --> 0:56:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to do this, yeah, to serve him.

0:56:27.560 --> 0:56:32.359
<v Speaker 2>But the after effect of that is I constantly let

0:56:32.400 --> 0:56:33.080
<v Speaker 2>myself down.

0:56:33.200 --> 0:56:35.880
<v Speaker 1>I have to submit and not be true to myself.

0:56:35.960 --> 0:56:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's like it's okay to say I actually

0:56:38.200 --> 0:56:40.560
<v Speaker 2>don't feel like it, And for the man to say,

0:56:40.600 --> 0:56:43.160
<v Speaker 2>you know what, I honor that. What's going on for you?

0:56:43.200 --> 0:56:44.759
<v Speaker 2>What do you need? Do you need a cup of tea?

0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:47.080
<v Speaker 2>Let me show you in because you know a lot

0:56:47.080 --> 0:56:50.759
<v Speaker 2>of women want to be intimate in different ways. Intimacy is,

0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:54.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, let's put a movie on, let's hold hands,

0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:57.840
<v Speaker 2>let's I'll cook you a beautiful meal. That's okay, not

0:56:58.040 --> 0:56:59.840
<v Speaker 2>just I want my needs to be served and this

0:56:59.920 --> 0:57:00.600
<v Speaker 2>is the only way.

0:57:00.640 --> 0:57:04.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think with the complications of all intimacy and sex,

0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:08.399
<v Speaker 1>it's about there shouldn't be an imbalance anyway, it should

0:57:08.560 --> 0:57:12.640
<v Speaker 1>it should be equal. I think that's a way to

0:57:12.800 --> 0:57:18.040
<v Speaker 1>address the concerns with your advocacy work. Talk us through

0:57:18.080 --> 0:57:21.680
<v Speaker 1>that and what you're doing and the messaging that you're

0:57:21.680 --> 0:57:24.480
<v Speaker 1>trying to get across and where people can reach out

0:57:24.520 --> 0:57:24.680
<v Speaker 1>to you.

0:57:24.960 --> 0:57:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Sure, so the normal silence is obviously born from that

0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:30.880
<v Speaker 2>experience in the massage room, but I've been working with

0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:33.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of women in domestic violence and sexual assault prior.

0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:37.840
<v Speaker 2>But then I realized that what prevented me in that

0:57:37.880 --> 0:57:41.120
<v Speaker 2>moment from stepping forward was the silence. So what if

0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:44.600
<v Speaker 2>we started to break our silence And I'm not talking

0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:48.080
<v Speaker 2>about everyone just gathering at a police station. And that's

0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:52.080
<v Speaker 2>not the path for everyone. But the first step to

0:57:52.120 --> 0:57:54.760
<v Speaker 2>healing is actually voice in what happened. So remember I

0:57:54.760 --> 0:57:57.080
<v Speaker 2>said it has to come out of the body by

0:57:57.160 --> 0:58:01.200
<v Speaker 2>naming it. So I started to one the cockcase was

0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:03.480
<v Speaker 2>finished and I could talk about it. So I've been

0:58:03.560 --> 0:58:07.360
<v Speaker 2>creating a platform on Facebook, just building a community of

0:58:07.440 --> 0:58:12.520
<v Speaker 2>people who have sat for decades and possibly not spoken up.

0:58:13.840 --> 0:58:16.440
<v Speaker 2>So when I've got about, you know, twenty thousand people

0:58:16.440 --> 0:58:20.680
<v Speaker 2>from all around the world who are same, finally someone,

0:58:21.000 --> 0:58:24.960
<v Speaker 2>because I believe if one person goes first, the other

0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:28.960
<v Speaker 2>person has permission to go next. And it becomes almost

0:58:29.000 --> 0:58:31.800
<v Speaker 2>like this is the ripple effect right now. So then

0:58:32.000 --> 0:58:34.160
<v Speaker 2>I speak up and I say, you know, I guess

0:58:34.160 --> 0:58:37.800
<v Speaker 2>that's how the Me Too movement began. It happened to me.

0:58:38.080 --> 0:58:40.040
<v Speaker 2>And someone goes, oh my goodness, it happened to me.

0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:42.520
<v Speaker 2>And let me tell you, every woman you speak to

0:58:43.400 --> 0:58:46.440
<v Speaker 2>other's experienced it or know someone, and they're just wanting

0:58:46.480 --> 0:58:50.440
<v Speaker 2>to talk about it. So I created this Facebook group

0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:56.640
<v Speaker 2>and then I noticed the pushback from people, which I

0:58:56.680 --> 0:58:59.320
<v Speaker 2>think is really important to talk about is how we

0:58:59.360 --> 0:59:02.520
<v Speaker 2>then vilify the victim. And I think after the court case.

0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.320
<v Speaker 2>What I wasn't prepared for was the victim shaming.

0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:07.600
<v Speaker 1>Did the experience that did you?

0:59:08.080 --> 0:59:12.200
<v Speaker 2>So his father straight after the court, Channel seven were

0:59:12.200 --> 0:59:15.560
<v Speaker 2>there they asked him, what do you think, mister Petrie,

0:59:15.960 --> 0:59:18.320
<v Speaker 2>and he said, there's two sides to a coin. And

0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:20.520
<v Speaker 2>that actually made me feel pretty sad in the sense

0:59:20.600 --> 0:59:23.640
<v Speaker 2>that if that's the narrative of the family, he's admitted

0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:25.880
<v Speaker 2>it to me, at what point does it become he

0:59:25.920 --> 0:59:29.320
<v Speaker 2>did this? And then I realized this is the you know,

0:59:29.400 --> 0:59:32.560
<v Speaker 2>the Afl family were the same in Melbourne when there

0:59:32.600 --> 0:59:35.240
<v Speaker 2>was that rape, and you know they closed ranks, and

0:59:35.640 --> 0:59:38.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, surely there must be two sides. And I thought,

0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that makes me feel so devastated for the victim because

0:59:41.360 --> 0:59:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you've gone through all of this to go out the

0:59:43.880 --> 0:59:46.800
<v Speaker 2>other side and still not being believed. So I was

0:59:46.880 --> 0:59:50.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of gathering all this is information to look at. Okay,

0:59:50.440 --> 0:59:52.800
<v Speaker 2>if this is what we face, where do we need

0:59:52.840 --> 0:59:56.960
<v Speaker 2>to change the mentality and the culture from a victim perspective?

0:59:57.600 --> 0:59:59.160
<v Speaker 2>So I put a post out on my group and

0:59:59.240 --> 1:00:02.439
<v Speaker 2>it was finished this sentence, what did you expect when?

1:00:03.200 --> 1:00:05.920
<v Speaker 2>And oh my goodness, there was like almost two thousand

1:00:05.960 --> 1:00:11.360
<v Speaker 2>people wrote their story and I was sort of reading

1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:13.680
<v Speaker 2>through them, from what did I expect as a seven

1:00:13.680 --> 1:00:18.240
<v Speaker 2>month old on a changing table, to everybody's story and

1:00:18.800 --> 1:00:21.760
<v Speaker 2>to seventy year old women, and I thought there's something

1:00:21.800 --> 1:00:23.600
<v Speaker 2>in this. Look at these women who were trust in

1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:26.840
<v Speaker 2>this space to come forward. And one woman said, I've

1:00:26.840 --> 1:00:30.160
<v Speaker 2>hovered over the send button for twenty minutes. I've never

1:00:30.200 --> 1:00:34.800
<v Speaker 2>spoken this out loud ever powerful. So I realized this

1:00:34.840 --> 1:00:38.960
<v Speaker 2>is a movement. And rather than what did she expect?

1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:42.480
<v Speaker 2>What were you wearing? What did you let's switch that around.

1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:46.480
<v Speaker 2>What were you doing? Why did you do that? So

1:00:46.960 --> 1:00:50.480
<v Speaker 2>the movement is that it's breaking the silence, it's breaking

1:00:50.560 --> 1:00:55.560
<v Speaker 2>the generational trauma. It's listening to a victim without interrogating her.

1:00:55.640 --> 1:00:56.560
<v Speaker 2>She's not the criminal.

1:00:57.080 --> 1:00:57.920
<v Speaker 1>That's important.

1:00:58.120 --> 1:01:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah when she Freeze has been educated enough to say,

1:01:02.480 --> 1:01:05.200
<v Speaker 2>even if she doesn't understand what her body did, oh

1:01:05.240 --> 1:01:06.080
<v Speaker 2>I've read about that.

1:01:06.880 --> 1:01:09.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I think that's why it's so good to

1:01:09.440 --> 1:01:15.080
<v Speaker 1>talk about what you experienced. That give other people understanding

1:01:15.240 --> 1:01:17.800
<v Speaker 1>of that might have been through similar situations.

1:01:18.360 --> 1:01:20.240
<v Speaker 2>And then if you should imagine the video that you

1:01:20.280 --> 1:01:22.760
<v Speaker 2>and I've watched, Oh you don't understand, Freeze, I'm going

1:01:22.800 --> 1:01:25.400
<v Speaker 2>to show you a three minute video on YouTube, that's

1:01:25.400 --> 1:01:28.920
<v Speaker 2>what your body did, and then she can go, oh,

1:01:29.080 --> 1:01:32.040
<v Speaker 2>this exists, and then you go to the police station.

1:01:32.200 --> 1:01:35.040
<v Speaker 2>I think if they had literature to hand out to say,

1:01:35.440 --> 1:01:38.360
<v Speaker 2>that's the freeze response, that's what your body did. It's

1:01:38.360 --> 1:01:40.800
<v Speaker 2>not your fault. Yeah, your body saved you.

1:01:41.680 --> 1:01:44.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think from an investigator's point of view, it

1:01:44.680 --> 1:01:47.040
<v Speaker 1>would be handy to have that sort of knowledge when

1:01:47.080 --> 1:01:50.360
<v Speaker 1>you're sitting down getting statements from victims as well, have

1:01:50.560 --> 1:01:53.880
<v Speaker 1>an appreciation of the possibilities.

1:01:53.520 --> 1:01:56.600
<v Speaker 2>Because she wouldn't even know, and the courage to step

1:01:56.640 --> 1:01:58.760
<v Speaker 2>through the door. And then if she can get some

1:01:58.880 --> 1:02:02.120
<v Speaker 2>understanding around and why her body did what it did,

1:02:02.480 --> 1:02:05.400
<v Speaker 2>and then the courts understand this too. Might not happen

1:02:05.440 --> 1:02:08.280
<v Speaker 2>in every case, but we can now start to understand

1:02:08.400 --> 1:02:11.960
<v Speaker 2>a woman's body. And then if she can ask herself

1:02:11.960 --> 1:02:13.920
<v Speaker 2>the same question I asked, where did all this begin?

1:02:14.440 --> 1:02:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Was it just there? Or was it a long time ago?

1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:18.920
<v Speaker 2>And then we can start to look at our childhood

1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:22.760
<v Speaker 2>trauma and start to unpack that, which means that now

1:02:22.800 --> 1:02:25.640
<v Speaker 2>I've got my voice. Let me tell you, there'll be

1:02:25.720 --> 1:02:28.000
<v Speaker 2>no way I would ever be in a situation where

1:02:28.400 --> 1:02:31.200
<v Speaker 2>my voice would be silent ever again, because I've broken it,

1:02:31.200 --> 1:02:33.880
<v Speaker 2>and that's what we want people to do. Once you

1:02:33.920 --> 1:02:36.280
<v Speaker 2>get your voice, it never goes back down through the

1:02:36.280 --> 1:02:36.760
<v Speaker 2>trap door.

1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:39.480
<v Speaker 1>I can tell you now, I don't think we're going

1:02:39.560 --> 1:02:44.200
<v Speaker 1>to make you not comment. I'm breaking the good girl code.

1:02:45.160 --> 1:02:47.840
<v Speaker 1>How does that fit into the whole?

1:02:48.000 --> 1:02:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Say so, I was already writing a book from about

1:02:52.600 --> 1:02:56.400
<v Speaker 2>my past about how we're conditioned as children, and then

1:02:56.440 --> 1:03:00.920
<v Speaker 2>when this happened, I realized I was coded and I'll

1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:03.360
<v Speaker 2>explain that, and meaning I was coded to stay quiet,

1:03:03.520 --> 1:03:08.080
<v Speaker 2>to be passive, to be pleasing, to not upset anyone.

1:03:08.440 --> 1:03:12.360
<v Speaker 2>So I realized that we're actually all coded every single

1:03:12.440 --> 1:03:15.479
<v Speaker 2>day in any experience, we'll live in a card into

1:03:15.520 --> 1:03:17.920
<v Speaker 2>a code, right, you know, it might be you know,

1:03:18.680 --> 1:03:23.360
<v Speaker 2>be the good father and you know, stay small, be quiet.

1:03:23.920 --> 1:03:26.400
<v Speaker 2>So if we start to unpack our our codes and

1:03:26.480 --> 1:03:29.240
<v Speaker 2>break the good girl code, I think we'll see red

1:03:29.280 --> 1:03:34.080
<v Speaker 2>flags in relationships, more will spot cohesive control because it's

1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:39.000
<v Speaker 2>basically decoding the codes that we were imprinted with by

1:03:39.080 --> 1:03:39.640
<v Speaker 2>my father.

1:03:40.080 --> 1:03:43.600
<v Speaker 1>Remember, it's all I see what you're saying, the nineteen

1:03:43.680 --> 1:03:47.600
<v Speaker 1>fifties housewife attitude that well, it's a man of the

1:03:47.600 --> 1:03:50.880
<v Speaker 1>house I'll do what I'm told and I'll be a

1:03:50.960 --> 1:03:54.360
<v Speaker 1>good girl. And that sounds condescending and saying the words,

1:03:54.360 --> 1:03:57.720
<v Speaker 1>but that type of narrative, that's what you're trying to break. That. No,

1:03:57.960 --> 1:04:00.920
<v Speaker 1>you've got a voice, stand up, talk, stand up for yourself.

1:04:01.400 --> 1:04:04.440
<v Speaker 2>And if I hadn't been taught to be submissive to

1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:08.160
<v Speaker 2>the man like my mother was, I will probably never

1:04:08.280 --> 1:04:10.480
<v Speaker 2>ended up in that massage room. It led me there

1:04:10.520 --> 1:04:14.560
<v Speaker 2>because I needed to break the code, so I could

1:04:14.600 --> 1:04:18.880
<v Speaker 2>list probably a four sheets of coding. So let's look

1:04:18.920 --> 1:04:22.040
<v Speaker 2>at the code in particularly with young girls, and boys

1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:23.880
<v Speaker 2>have their own too. You know, the boys don't cry,

1:04:24.000 --> 1:04:26.760
<v Speaker 2>gals girls don't get angry. So if we can actually

1:04:27.760 --> 1:04:30.360
<v Speaker 2>get the codes out of the vault, break them down,

1:04:30.760 --> 1:04:34.640
<v Speaker 2>recode ourselves with it's safe to speak. I'm not going

1:04:34.720 --> 1:04:36.840
<v Speaker 2>to get thrown against a wall by my dad, So

1:04:38.280 --> 1:04:39.760
<v Speaker 2>it's safe to have a voice, which is where I

1:04:39.840 --> 1:04:42.120
<v Speaker 2>am now. It's safe to be in a room because

1:04:42.160 --> 1:04:46.040
<v Speaker 2>I can protect myself. I'm not four years old anymore.

1:04:46.400 --> 1:04:48.280
<v Speaker 2>And when I took that little girl, when I looked

1:04:48.280 --> 1:04:50.720
<v Speaker 2>around the court before the trial, I thought, I just

1:04:50.760 --> 1:04:55.560
<v Speaker 2>want to go and familiarize myself. I was shaking so violently,

1:04:56.240 --> 1:04:57.960
<v Speaker 2>and I stopped for a moment and I breathed, and

1:04:58.000 --> 1:04:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I said, how old am I right now? And this

1:05:00.080 --> 1:05:02.800
<v Speaker 2>voice said four? And I went ah, And I got

1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:06.040
<v Speaker 2>her by the hand and I said to her, darling,

1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:10.320
<v Speaker 2>you're not facing your father. That was the key moment

1:05:10.760 --> 1:05:13.479
<v Speaker 2>because she goes back to, oh, well, if I speak

1:05:13.520 --> 1:05:16.240
<v Speaker 2>up to my dad, I get hurt. She sees the

1:05:16.280 --> 1:05:21.040
<v Speaker 2>massage therapist as her father representation. So the healing was

1:05:21.240 --> 1:05:24.800
<v Speaker 2>taking her by the hand. I've got you. I'm now

1:05:25.000 --> 1:05:28.520
<v Speaker 2>fifty two, You're not four. You're safe. No one's going

1:05:28.560 --> 1:05:32.880
<v Speaker 2>to hurt you. And what a beautiful healing journey to

1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:36.720
<v Speaker 2>then integrate that part back to me and go, I'm

1:05:36.720 --> 1:05:38.520
<v Speaker 2>going to look after you. Nobody will hurt you. You're

1:05:38.520 --> 1:05:41.000
<v Speaker 2>not four, because as a four year old meant to

1:05:41.520 --> 1:05:45.160
<v Speaker 2>in that situation with a six foot two man protect herself,

1:05:46.160 --> 1:05:49.960
<v Speaker 2>she's going to submit. So the coding is that wherever

1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:53.080
<v Speaker 2>I being coded, is it serving me looking at my

1:05:53.160 --> 1:05:56.520
<v Speaker 2>relationships as a reflection, and how can I break it?

1:05:57.440 --> 1:06:00.640
<v Speaker 2>So it's gone from the book that I was originally

1:06:00.680 --> 1:06:03.360
<v Speaker 2>right into breaking the good Girl code, which kind of

1:06:03.360 --> 1:06:06.160
<v Speaker 2>fits into the whole mission. If we break the code,

1:06:06.520 --> 1:06:07.600
<v Speaker 2>we break the sailings.

1:06:08.360 --> 1:06:11.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, lots of work to do, lots of work to do,

1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:16.440
<v Speaker 1>but look, I found it very educational and quite fascinating

1:06:17.040 --> 1:06:20.560
<v Speaker 1>having this chat. And good on you for coming out

1:06:20.560 --> 1:06:23.680
<v Speaker 1>and speaking about this. But yeah, when you're walking around

1:06:23.680 --> 1:06:26.760
<v Speaker 1>with a T shirt on, no more silence. So I

1:06:26.800 --> 1:06:30.240
<v Speaker 1>figured you've got a little bit to say, well done,

1:06:30.680 --> 1:06:34.919
<v Speaker 1>Well done for turning what is a horrible situation and

1:06:35.000 --> 1:06:39.000
<v Speaker 1>finding some positivity in the direction that's given you in

1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:41.520
<v Speaker 1>life and the help that you're trying to do others.

1:06:41.560 --> 1:06:44.760
<v Speaker 1>And also thank you for your work in the cops,

1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:47.080
<v Speaker 1>so I know the sacrifices you've got to make and

1:06:47.120 --> 1:06:49.520
<v Speaker 1>the work you did that after that in the child

1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:52.440
<v Speaker 1>protection space. It's a dark world, isn't it.

1:06:52.680 --> 1:06:55.280
<v Speaker 2>It's so dark. But I think the world's ready to

1:06:55.320 --> 1:06:58.040
<v Speaker 2>make a change. And I think the more that will

1:06:58.400 --> 1:07:02.680
<v Speaker 2>speak up, yep, changes happen. It's like we need to roar.

1:07:02.800 --> 1:07:05.720
<v Speaker 2>We need voices to come together to be able to

1:07:05.720 --> 1:07:08.800
<v Speaker 2>say we've had enough. You know, we've had enough of

1:07:08.840 --> 1:07:12.640
<v Speaker 2>this suppression and this violence and this harm. We need

1:07:13.000 --> 1:07:16.880
<v Speaker 2>men and women to come together to unite and not divided,

1:07:17.120 --> 1:07:20.680
<v Speaker 2>to come together. And I think there's a possibility that

1:07:20.720 --> 1:07:23.440
<v Speaker 2>we come. I believe in my lifetime that I will

1:07:23.520 --> 1:07:24.640
<v Speaker 2>leave a legacy behind.

1:07:25.080 --> 1:07:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well I think I think the legacy might be

1:07:27.760 --> 1:07:31.960
<v Speaker 1>four boys that you're raising that have been pointed in

1:07:32.000 --> 1:07:35.400
<v Speaker 1>the right direction. So congratulations on that. Thanks very much,

1:07:35.800 --> 1:07:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Jeers