Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. Last weekend,
Speaker 1: Neo Nazis gathered outside New South Wales Parliament. Organizers had
Speaker 1: registered the protest with the police and nothing was done
Speaker 1: to stop it going ahead. When two female politicians spoke
Speaker 1: out against the protests, they were targeted with threats of
Speaker 1: violence and death. The premier said there will be an
Speaker 1: investigation into how this was allowed to happen, but the
Speaker 1: protest is not isolated. Neo Nazis have been gathering in
Speaker 1: cities and towns in recent months, marching through streets and
Speaker 1: terrorizing communities. Back in September, they marched from an anti
Speaker 1: immigration rally and descended on Camp Sovereignty, a sacred place
Speaker 1: for First Nations people in the heart of Melbourne. They
Speaker 1: attacked people who were gathered there. Today writer and seven
Speaker 1: AM host Daniel James on what happened at Camp Sovereignty
Speaker 1: and the response from authorities. It's Sunday, November sixteen, and
Speaker 1: this episode was originally published in September.
Speaker 2: So Daniel, let's.
Speaker 1: Begin by talking about the attack on Camp Sovereignty in Melbourne.
Speaker 1: That attack was captured on video, some of it was
Speaker 1: streamed live on Facebook. So can you walk me through
Speaker 1: what we know happened.
Speaker 3: It's a scene that Aboriginal people, through the history of colonization,
Speaker 3: are all too familiar with. It was all filmed. There
Speaker 3: was a sixteen minute Facebook live stream that captured the
Speaker 3: whole thing. Ran about five pm on Sunday, as the
Speaker 3: light was fading. There were a handful of people as
Speaker 3: custodians of camp. So I'm already sitting around the campfire.
Speaker 3: There dozens of men dressed in black approached from the west.
Speaker 3: Then all of a sudden start running towards the camp, charging,
Speaker 3: yelling all sorts of things, and started tearing the camp apart,
Speaker 3: started attacking some of the people there, who are mainly
Speaker 3: Aboriginal women. They were beaten, people were kicked in the stomach,
Speaker 3: thrown to the ground. Unfortunately and horrifically, this is actually
Speaker 3: the third confrontation between now Nazis and Camp members that
Speaker 3: day and a lot of questions are being asked about
Speaker 3: how it could happen. There was a huge police presence
Speaker 3: within the city. You would expect that there would be
Speaker 3: a degree of intelligence being shared between authorities in the city,
Speaker 3: and even if there wasn't. Unfortunately, this attack on camp
Speaker 3: soeverbrity was entirely predictable.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about why Neo Nazis targeted this site
Speaker 1: in particular, what is cap sovereignty, Why is it sacred?
Speaker 1: Why did they pick it?
Speaker 3: The main reason they picked it was because there was
Speaker 3: easy pickings for them. It's an area that is open
Speaker 3: to the public. It's available for anyone to go along
Speaker 3: and participate and sit around the campfire there and learned
Speaker 3: out why it is a sacred site. And the reason
Speaker 3: it's a sacred site is that it's a burial site
Speaker 3: in King's domain and the location of a permanent vigual
Speaker 3: that has been set up there since January twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3: The site is a reminder of First Nations people's survival.
Speaker 3: It is a place that is an invitation to the
Speaker 3: rest of the community to come along and sit beside
Speaker 3: Aboriginal people and find out what happened here. They came
Speaker 3: by after being trumped up at the Raleigh for Australia,
Speaker 3: on which their main head, Honcho Thomas Sill, who was
Speaker 3: a New Zealand born now Nazi and the leader of
Speaker 3: their group that we'd seen, was not only just given
Speaker 3: a microphone, he was actually given the keynote address on
Speaker 3: the steps of Parliament House in Melbourne.
Speaker 4: Not this new Australia that they're trying to build, but
Speaker 4: our Australia, the Australia we were bred in and raised it.
Speaker 3: And on the back of that, that's the kind of
Speaker 3: validation these type of characters need. And so they would
Speaker 3: have walked away feeling validated, they would have felt emboldened.
Speaker 3: And unfortunately Camp Soeverrety is a place that is open
Speaker 3: for neo Nazis to come and defile.
Speaker 5: Let's talk a little more about the rally, how it
Speaker 5: came about, who was there, because in the days leading
Speaker 5: up to it there was talk about it being about
Speaker 5: immigration and about housing, and obviously some of that frustration
Speaker 5: that some people were feeling was weaponized by neo Nazis.
Speaker 6: Like Thomas Seule. So what role do you think that
Speaker 6: australia Is media and political landscape played in how this
Speaker 6: all unfolded In the.
Speaker 3: Lead up to the march for Australia was one that
Speaker 3: was characterized by ordinary Austrains being fed up with things
Speaker 3: like the cost of housing, portioning the blame at the
Speaker 3: feet of immigrants.
Speaker 7: Crime is clearly up as a result of mass immigration
Speaker 7: in certain areas, and we're continually told on top of
Speaker 7: that that Australia is built on stolen land and that
Speaker 7: our history is something to be ashamed of. Is it
Speaker 7: any wonder then that so many regular mums dads are upset?
Speaker 3: But if you actually have a look at any sort
Speaker 3: of social media page, it was clear from the very
Speaker 3: very outset that this was a rally that was organized
Speaker 3: by extremists, both inside and outside the Parliament. It was
Speaker 3: something that neo Nazis were always going to attend, and
Speaker 3: there was an attempt to mainstream it by trying to
Speaker 3: get everyday Australians to come up long and attend. And
Speaker 3: for my sins, I listened to talk back on a
Speaker 3: regular basis. I don't know why I do it, but
Speaker 3: I was listening on Sunday afternoon and a woman called
Speaker 3: up a commercial radio station here in Melbourne and she
Speaker 3: was going to the anti immigration rally, as she said,
Speaker 3: for her grandchildren.
Speaker 8: We're doing this because Victoria and Australia isn't the way
Speaker 8: it used to be, and you know, we're doing it
Speaker 8: for our grandchildren.
Speaker 3: Her voice was very interesting, it trembled, but there was
Speaker 3: also a defiance in her voice as well. You could
Speaker 3: sense that she was engraved danger of the Australia that
Speaker 3: she knew slipping away, and was mirrored in the evening
Speaker 3: too when I listened to talk back as well. It
Speaker 3: was just people that were insisting that they were there peacefully.
Speaker 3: They were there as an act of love. But there
Speaker 3: wasn't too much about the speech that the Nazi gave.
Speaker 3: There was no think about the racist placards that were
Speaker 3: also there. There was nothing about the fights or the
Speaker 3: police court and that had to separate them from other
Speaker 3: protesters in the city for various reasons. And then of
Speaker 3: course the grandmothers of the world, rightly or wrongly, are
Speaker 3: therefore able to give cover for what it was and
Speaker 3: that was basically a far right Nazi rally coming up.
Speaker 2: Should this attack be treated as an act of terrorism.
Speaker 9: Prime Minister, welcome, good afternoon, Patricia.
Speaker 10: Do you think there were good people with legitimate concerns
Speaker 10: at these anti immigration rallies this weekend?
Speaker 4: Of course, there's always good people will turn up to
Speaker 4: demonstrate their views about particular issues. But what we have
Speaker 4: here is neo Nazi has been given a platform that's in.
Speaker 1: The wake of the marches. On the weekend, the Prime
Speaker 1: Minister and the Albanesi said that while there were quote
Speaker 1: good people who attend to the is rallies, they were
Speaker 1: ultimately about selling division. So let's talk about that response.
Speaker 6: What do you make of it.
Speaker 3: This is not a time for our politicians to be
Speaker 3: really doing about with this. This is not a time
Speaker 3: for clever politicians like Anthony Albernesi and clever politicians like
Speaker 3: Susan Lee to try and weave their way through some
Speaker 3: sort of middle road.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 10: What units is Australians will always be stronger than those
Speaker 10: who seek to divide us. That unity is at risk.
Speaker 10: The Coalition stands ready to work with the government to
Speaker 10: repair our social cohesion. This is a moment the demands leadership.
Speaker 10: The Prime Minister must show that leadership now.
Speaker 3: We are now in a situation where we have neo
Speaker 3: Nazis openly on the street preaching hate against minorities, against
Speaker 3: immigrants and its First Nations people in the open. These
Speaker 3: extreme views are now being centralized, They are now being
Speaker 3: embedded within the mainstream politics of this place itself. If
Speaker 3: you want to look at the Victoria Liberal Party, for instance,
Speaker 3: you will find people that hold extreme views within the Parliament.
Speaker 3: It's very alarming to see what I would term as
Speaker 3: a placid response from our political leaders.
Speaker 4: They weren't big numbers in the scheme of things in
Speaker 4: a nation of almost twenty seven million people. Let's be
Speaker 4: clear here, So you do think.
Speaker 10: This is a tiny proportion of the Australian population, this
Speaker 10: anti immigration center.
Speaker 4: That shows that that was the case.
Speaker 5: And there's always been.
Speaker 3: The attack on camp so I already hasn't yet been
Speaker 3: dubbed a hate crime or a terrorist attack, but what
Speaker 3: other way could you describe it? It wasn't a fight
Speaker 3: over property, it wasn't an aggravated burglary. It was there
Speaker 3: to destroy the camp and to destroy in many ways
Speaker 3: the movement that Aboriginal people have set up for ourselves there.
Speaker 3: So the response from our political leaders so far has
Speaker 3: been wishy washy at best and appeasing at worst.
Speaker 1: And so late yesterday afternoon Thomas Saw and two others
Speaker 1: were arrested in relation to the attack.
Speaker 10: What are the victoria you're under arrested with the fury
Speaker 10: of yourself.
Speaker 1: Of course, there were many other people involved. So as
Speaker 1: the investigation goes on, what do you think needs to
Speaker 1: happen from here.
Speaker 3: What do we need to do from here? I mean,
Speaker 3: my view is that the sovereign citizen movement and the
Speaker 3: Nazi movement in Australia need to be categorized as terrorist
Speaker 3: groups because they are becoming increasingly emboldened. People are dying,
Speaker 3: people are getting beaten up, and it's fraying at the
Speaker 3: civility of our society. And the mainstream media has a
Speaker 3: fair degree of blame when it comes to that. The
Speaker 3: algorithms that our social media sites that we use, such
Speaker 3: as Meta, send people down rabbit holes so deeply that
Speaker 3: there is seemingly no way for them to come back
Speaker 3: and join us here in the real world. We need
Speaker 3: to start taking this incredibly seriously, and I'm not sure
Speaker 3: that our political leadership or our security agencies are taking
Speaker 3: this as seriously as they should. What happened on Sunday
Speaker 3: should never have happened.
Speaker 1: And when you look at the scale of what occurred,
Speaker 1: it's estimated that there were more than twenty thousand people
Speaker 1: attending these protests in cities across the country, which is
Speaker 1: not an insignificant amount of people. So what does that
Speaker 1: reveal to you about where the country is at right now?
Speaker 1: And the extent to which these beliefs have taken hold.
Speaker 3: They've become more and more mainstream, they have become more
Speaker 3: and more acceptable. The level of hate that is fired
Speaker 3: at our authorities, at our political leadership, the level of
Speaker 3: hate that is of course fired at Aboriginal people and
Speaker 3: other marginalized communities is out in the open, and so
Speaker 3: people are being emboldened to say these things. And the
Speaker 3: more that these things are said, and the more that
Speaker 3: these things are heard, the more likely it is that
Speaker 3: there is going to be action like we saw on
Speaker 3: Sunday against innocent people at Camp Sovereignty.
Speaker 4: I describe it as an act of terror, actually, as
Speaker 4: a terrorist act terrorize those follow herselves, very scary for
Speaker 4: those people.
Speaker 3: Uncle Robbie Thorpe, he's one of our respected elders here
Speaker 3: and basically the man who can be attributed to setting
Speaker 3: up Camp Soeverrity. He's made a very good point. There
Speaker 3: has been new hate laws that have come out to
Speaker 3: protect places of worship, and this is something that Senator
Speaker 3: Lydia Thorpe has also come out and question. She's asked
Speaker 3: the question, how do you define a place of worship?
Speaker 3: Aboriginal places of worship, there are no Buildingsstensibly, Camp Soeverrity
Speaker 3: is a place of worship. It's a place of remembrance.
Speaker 3: It is a place where we go to hell and
Speaker 3: to move forward and to educate. Is that a place
Speaker 3: of worship? And should that be protected under hate laws?
Speaker 3: We have covered for mosques and synagogues, and rightfully so.
Speaker 3: But the question needs to be asked. Can Aboriginal people
Speaker 3: worship their elders, worship their own spirituality, worshiped land without
Speaker 3: fear of being attacked by Nazi extremists?
Speaker 1: And the people who were attacked at Camp Sovereignty, how
Speaker 1: are they doing?
Speaker 3: Deeply, deeply rattled? For people were injured, two were taken
Speaker 3: to hospital with head wounds. But I think it's fair
Speaker 3: enough to say that the whole Aboriginal community has been
Speaker 3: injured by this. What happened on Sunday was had all
Speaker 3: the hallmarks of a massacre. We've had hundreds of massacres
Speaker 3: in this country at the hands of white men approaching
Speaker 3: camps at low light when there are only a handful
Speaker 3: of people around to commit acts of violence. Now, the
Speaker 3: only thing that was separate from what happened on Sunday
Speaker 3: and what has happened throughout the history of this place
Speaker 3: was the body count and the fact that there were
Speaker 3: witnesses there, the fact that there were people filming it.
Speaker 3: One would hate to think what would happen if this
Speaker 3: was actually out in the bush somewhere and a group
Speaker 3: of emboldened Neo Nazis came upon an aboriginal campsite. How
Speaker 3: far could it have gone? These are questions that are
Speaker 3: not rhetorical. These are questions that need to be asked
Speaker 3: with a degree of sobriety in the cold, hard light
Speaker 3: of day, because these movements are getting away from the authorities,
Speaker 3: They're getting away from our ability to contain them, and
Speaker 3: they have shown that once they've given a little bit
Speaker 3: of validation, they become more and more emboldened, more and
Speaker 3: more extreme, And I just hate to think what will
Speaker 3: happen next.
Speaker 6: Well, Daniel, thank you so much for speaking with me.
Speaker 9: Thanks Ruby, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow, Daniel James will bring you an interview with one
Speaker 1: of Australia's leading political observers, the writer and former advisor
Speaker 1: to two Prime ministers, Sean Kelly. Sean has just written
Speaker 1: a new quarterly essay where he considers the vision Anthony
Speaker 1: Albereneze holds for Australia. He explores whether Albaneze is more
Speaker 1: interested in staying in government or changing the country for
Speaker 1: the better, interrogating which issues the PM is willing to
Speaker 1: take on and where that leaves us. It'll be a
Speaker 1: fascinating conversation. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening.