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Speaker 1: Kidai. Thanks so much for being here today.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Boy Antonia Murphy. She's a New Zealand based author,

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Speaker 2: madam an outspoken advocate for the rights and dignity of

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Speaker 2: sex workers. We explore some pretty fascinating intersections between literature,

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Speaker 2: advocacy and the often misunderstood.

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Speaker 3: World of sex work. It is a brilliant chat.

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Speaker 2: I learned a lot, but we do need to play

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Speaker 2: some ads back in a jiffy.

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Speaker 4: Human beings, especially now, are just starved for touch. I

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Speaker 4: think we are all stuck behind these screens all the time,

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Speaker 4: and that on top of the constant scrolling and everything

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Speaker 4: virtual and AI this, and then especially people who work

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Speaker 4: with technology and they're in front of their laptops all

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Speaker 4: the time. At the end of the day, we're all

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Speaker 4: human beings who need face to face presence and just touch.

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Speaker 4: Like literally, we had men who who would come not

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Speaker 4: for the sex. If there was any sex, there was

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Speaker 4: very little. They would really treasure the cuddles. They wanted

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Speaker 4: to have a long conversation, They wanted to cuddle and

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Speaker 4: just sort of have an intimate touch experience that they

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Speaker 4: just weren't getting. So they weren't It's not just that

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Speaker 4: they weren't getting sex in their regular lives. No, literally

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Speaker 4: nobody was touching them.

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Speaker 2: What would you say to people about why sex work

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Speaker 2: needs to be on the Indias?

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Speaker 4: What is it that is so disturbing to you about

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Speaker 4: it being paid for?

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Speaker 5: What is it?

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Speaker 4: Do you think that sex is not important or not necessary?

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's okay to help people with their grocery

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Speaker 4: bills right and to have access to clean water. How

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Speaker 4: would you feel with a life with no touch? Ever,

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Speaker 4: it's really specifically the sexual touch towards orgasm, which is terrifying.

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Speaker 4: And people don't think the government should be involved in that.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but the government has the right to

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Speaker 4: really even to kill you or to tell you to

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Speaker 4: kill in a war situation. So why do you put

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Speaker 4: that line there?

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Speaker 2: That's Antonio Murphy. This is better than yesterday. Make it

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Speaker 2: a better every episode since twenty thirteen. Thanks so much

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Speaker 2: for being here. My name's Oosha Ginsburg, and welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show. Very quickly, tickets for the next Story Club

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Speaker 2: show are on sale right now. It's on the eighth

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Speaker 2: of December, the Christmas Spectacular. Now, people who are on

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Speaker 2: the substack already have their tickets because they got their

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Speaker 2: ticket link last week. You can enjoy such a perk

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Speaker 2: for free as well. Get on the substack. I'll put

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Speaker 2: the link in the show notes. Today, my guest is

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Speaker 2: Antonio Murphy. We're going to talk about her experience running

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Speaker 2: an ethical escort agency in New Zealand, a country where

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Speaker 2: sex work is fully decriminalized. She's written a brilliant books

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Speaker 2: called Madam, which is out now. It's quite the sensation,

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Speaker 2: in so much so it's becoming a whole TV series.

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Speaker 2: In this conversation, we get into the broader idea of

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Speaker 2: what it is to connect on a human level. We

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Speaker 2: talk about dignity, We talk about the impact of modern

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Speaker 2: technology on relationships. Her approach to the sex industry has

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Speaker 2: always centered around consent, safety and professionalism, really challenging stereotypes

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Speaker 2: while highlighting the very complicated nature we have as a

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Speaker 2: community between intimacy and pleasure and commerce. We also talk

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Speaker 2: about the incredibly important need for touch and intimacy for

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Speaker 2: all people, including those with disabilities. Then how stigma tends

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Speaker 2: to persist despite the legal status of the work that

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Speaker 2: she does. Oh, when I learned a name for something

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Speaker 2: that I've experienced in the past, something called porn dick.

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Speaker 3: You never know, you may have encountered porn dick yourself.

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Speaker 2: I'll leave Antonia to explain. Enjoy the show. Thanks for coming.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you came.

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Speaker 5: I'm thrilled to be here.

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Speaker 1: How you doing.

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Speaker 4: It's been a little exhausting, not gonna lie. Lots of talking,

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Speaker 4: lots of signing, lots of elevator pitching.

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Speaker 3: Oh because, okay, so what's the book about?

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Speaker 2: Like that sort of thing, like, yeah, it's about an

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Speaker 2: author who goes to visit a journalist who hasn't done

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Speaker 2: their research.

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Speaker 4: So I usually walk in and I say so, I

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Speaker 4: ran a feminist escort agency in rural New Zealand for

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Speaker 4: three years, and that's where we go from there.

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Speaker 2: That's a pretty good line. That's a good opening line.

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Speaker 2: That's a pretty good, pretty good opening line. Nobody is

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Speaker 2: yoned yet, No, not at all.

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Speaker 1: I remember.

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Speaker 2: When I was young, and I only ask because it's

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Speaker 2: you know, as you were coming up as a guest

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Speaker 2: and our youngest is five, and yeah, starting to ask

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Speaker 2: the questions. You want to be able to answer the

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Speaker 2: questions correctly. I remember the way my moment described sex

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Speaker 2: work to me. Do you remember how it was described

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Speaker 2: to you when you were little.

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Speaker 4: No, I just remember seeing this word in the newspaper

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Speaker 4: and asking my mother what a war is.

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Speaker 5: I didn't understand, So what's a war?

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Speaker 1: And what did your mama say?

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Speaker 5: I actually don't remember.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember what her answer is, but I can

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Speaker 4: certainly tell you what I told my daughter when she

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Speaker 4: was six years old and asking me what the batch

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Speaker 4: was because kids at her little rural school in New

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Speaker 4: Zealand were starting to talk. And she said, mom, page's

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Speaker 4: mummy says that you have a sex club where people

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Speaker 4: do sexing. And I said, well, I run an escort

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Speaker 4: agency and it's where ladies dress up in beautiful outfits

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Speaker 4: and give kisses and cuddles to men and played dress up.

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Speaker 4: And she said, well, that doesn't sound so bad, and

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Speaker 4: I said, no, it doesn't now. I mean, now she

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Speaker 4: knows obviously more of the ins and outs. But my

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Speaker 4: policy is a mom as I always answered the question

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Speaker 4: that is asked, yeah, And I find that kids will

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Speaker 4: only ask the question that they're ready to hear the

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Speaker 4: answer to.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good one.

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Speaker 2: It is, you know, referred to as the world's oldest profession.

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Speaker 2: That's how I you know, when would you ask me,

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Speaker 2: which was the case coming around today again. So she's

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Speaker 2: a lady that started a workplace for a very old profession.

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Speaker 2: She went, oh, rock bec as Wolf's having breakfast.

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Speaker 1: But the idea that it's.

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Speaker 3: Criminal.

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Speaker 2: At what point did the criminality or the know the

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Speaker 2: idea that that's a bad thing show up.

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Speaker 4: Well, to be honest, I don't know that I can

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Speaker 4: speak to the history of it far less to the

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Speaker 4: history of it worldwide, because I think probably each country

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Speaker 4: has their own timeline with this. But I'll tell you

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Speaker 4: one of the things that I kind of got radicalized

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Speaker 4: on a little bit while running the Batch is I

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Speaker 4: think what really touches a nerve with people is the

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Speaker 4: idea that it is one way to flip the male

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Speaker 4: female power imbalance. So we would have men coming to

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Speaker 4: the Batch who were quite often a successful businessman with

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Speaker 4: plenty of money and therefore plenty of power in the world,

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Speaker 4: and they were seeing young single mums in their twenties

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Speaker 4: who are supposed to be poor and at the bottom

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Speaker 4: of the totem pole, right, and they were handing over

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Speaker 4: one hundred dollars bills, And in a way, I think

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Speaker 4: that really disturbs people that those young ladies.

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Speaker 5: It's a way for.

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Speaker 4: Them to jump the queue right and get past where

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Speaker 4: they should be because they should be poor, because they're

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Speaker 4: single moms.

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Speaker 2: So the idea that you you have your place, that's

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Speaker 2: that's your place, and if you want to get away

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Speaker 2: from that place, we're not allowing you to do this

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Speaker 2: is not the way that we accept you doing it.

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Speaker 2: I mentioned you before we started rolling that are as

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine who works in the industry.

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Speaker 3: Before I met.

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Speaker 2: Her, I met a woman who was a dancer at

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Speaker 2: a gentleman's clubs full of gentlemen obviously, and.

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Speaker 1: She bought a house with cash.

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Speaker 3: Well she was twenty five. Oh yes, you know, talk.

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Speaker 2: About jumping the for dancing like there was nothing nothing else,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: I met her through a boyfriend.

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Speaker 4: Twenty five And there's certain kinds of men and women

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Speaker 4: actually that drives them crazy. It drives them crazy that

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Speaker 4: young women should be able to access that kind of power.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So you think it's more about the subverting of

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Speaker 2: the power structure and the kind of traditional for one

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Speaker 2: of a bit of word ascension pathway for women.

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Speaker 4: Look, everybody longs for beautiful women. That is a source

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Speaker 4: of great power for them. We tell stories about it,

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Speaker 4: we sing songs about it. We use the power of

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Speaker 4: female sexuality to sell everything from cars to perfumes to

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Speaker 4: international holidays, and so everyone is making money off of it,

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Speaker 4: except somehow we've collectively decided that the women themselves should not.

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Speaker 4: And even if you look at for example, peorign actresses,

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Speaker 4: very often they're not the ones who are making the money,

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Speaker 4: certainly not now. And the age of OnlyFans that went

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Speaker 4: so much online is free. It's the it's the directors

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Speaker 4: and producers who are making the money. So yeah, I

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Speaker 4: definitely think there's an element to which we want to

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Speaker 4: keep women in their.

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Speaker 1: Place as far as you know.

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Speaker 2: If we want to talk about products, right or there

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Speaker 2: also a Harvard Business schooled the job to do? What's

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Speaker 2: the job to do? Like I need to get from

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Speaker 2: here to there. I could ride a bicycle, I could

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Speaker 2: buy a bicycle, that's the job to do. Or I

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Speaker 2: could get an uber or a cab like that.

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Speaker 3: The job to do is to get from here to there.

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Speaker 2: So the idea that the a product safe like cigarettes,

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Speaker 2: all right, the people that make the cigarettes, even though

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Speaker 2: it's highly addictive and kills you, apparently they're not to blame.

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Speaker 1: It's the user.

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Speaker 3: Who's to blame.

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Speaker 2: Yet, when I remember over up in Queensland, where sex

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Speaker 2: work was very very criminalized, and you know there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of corruption around it, it's the women who are

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Speaker 2: always to blame, never the guys who are lining up

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Speaker 2: our side.

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Speaker 3: I just find that kind of so.

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Speaker 2: So wild that that it's not the men who are

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Speaker 2: walking in that are the problem, it's the women who

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Speaker 2: are inside.

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Speaker 4: Well, actually they've tried to remedy that. For example, in

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Speaker 4: Europe you'll see a lot of what's called the Nordic model,

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Speaker 4: and the idea is supposed to be that we're criminalizing

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Speaker 4: it for the clients, not for the ladies, and so

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Speaker 4: therefore we're not going to prosecute the ladies, just the men,

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Speaker 4: and that way it'll be more fair. But actually it

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Speaker 4: doesn't end up working out that way because what happens is, well,

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Speaker 4: first of all, a man who's worried about getting arrested,

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Speaker 4: what's the first thing he's going to say. It's going

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Speaker 4: to say, could we go to this sort of quiet,

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Speaker 4: dark alleyway back here so that I won't get caught,

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Speaker 4: and boom right away, the woman gets put into a

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Speaker 4: dangerous position, or for example, she might be working out

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Speaker 4: of her flat that she rents and she is not

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Speaker 4: the person committing the crimes, but because crimes are being

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Speaker 4: committed in that space, her housing.

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Speaker 5: Could be put in jeopardy and she could be kicked out.

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Speaker 4: So they have tried to prosecute the clients in some spaces,

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Speaker 4: but it seems that anytime you push sex work into

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Speaker 4: the criminal sphere, it's the workers and most especially the

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Speaker 4: most vulnerable workers who who end up in danger.

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Speaker 2: What kind of things people worried about if we decriminalize things, Well.

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Speaker 4: I can tell you from the New Zealand perspective, from

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Speaker 4: what I've heard from older sex workers and activists, is

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Speaker 4: that the argument against the two thousand and three Prostitution

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Speaker 4: Reform Act when they were trying to get it passed,

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Speaker 4: was that it was going to bring with it this

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Speaker 4: explosion of prostitution. They were going to be everywhere. It

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Speaker 4: was going to be an infestation, a toxic waste for

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Speaker 4: the nation. Right And in fact that's not at all

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Speaker 4: what happened, and we have the numbers from it. Five

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Speaker 4: years later, in two thousand and eight, they did a

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Speaker 4: study to check are there more sex workers out there?

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Speaker 5: Working.

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Speaker 4: And the answer is no, is it remains steady the

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Speaker 4: whole time. It's just that the women and I will

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Speaker 4: often say women because those are the people who I

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Speaker 4: worked with. Okay, we can get out of the way

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Speaker 4: that I understand that men do this work and people

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Speaker 4: who are gender diverse do this work.

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Speaker 5: Yes, But what they found is that is that the

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Speaker 5: numbers of sex workers were really steady even with decriminalization, cultural.

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Speaker 2: Acceptance of men who go to sex workers, you know,

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Speaker 2: as a service. So where I grew up in in

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Speaker 2: suburban Brisbane, it was very noted, not a thing. And

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Speaker 2: then I knew a guy. He was from the country,

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Speaker 2: and we went to a he was one of his mates.

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Speaker 2: We're getting married and I got to go along to

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Speaker 2: the bachelor celebrations and there was a dance to there

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Speaker 2: and the moment the dancer left, like the room emptied out,

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Speaker 2: I was like, where.

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Speaker 1: Did everybody go? Like, oh, I went to the knock shop, mate, Sorry,

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Speaker 1: the knock shop.

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Speaker 2: I guess it's country New South Wales slang for as

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Speaker 2: in knock and boots were.

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Speaker 5: Oh right, yeah, thank you for holding my hand through that.

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Speaker 1: Oh you will.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I just told you something you didn't know.

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Speaker 2: I had got on a knock shop and it was

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Speaker 2: just fine. And that blew my mind that every one

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Speaker 2: and every one of these guys who all knew each other,

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Speaker 2: they knew each other's wives and parents, and you know,

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Speaker 2: everything fine with it.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that's a specific vibe. So we would

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Speaker 4: sometimes get groups of men and stag parties kind of thing,

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Speaker 4: and that's a situation where they're egging each other on

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Speaker 4: and there's often alcohol.

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Speaker 5: Involved and row, I'm going to do this or I'm

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Speaker 5: going to do that.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I would hear from the ladies that, in fact,

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Speaker 4: when they got into the room, quite a few of

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Speaker 4: them couldn't do anything at all because they're just that drunk.

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Speaker 4: But I think when it's one gentleman who's reaching out

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Speaker 4: on his own, and I think even the guys who

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Speaker 4: are pretty open minded and enlightened about this stuff, there's

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Speaker 4: a certain amount of shame that I'm paying for it,

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Speaker 4: I'm not getting it for free kind of thing. Quite

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Speaker 4: apart from any religious and societal taboo. Just that is

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Speaker 4: enough to make them be quite secretive about it, and

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Speaker 4: they're not boasting that they do this.

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Speaker 5: I don't think.

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Speaker 2: Right the liberation of the sexuality that we have that

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Speaker 2: has been worked so hard to achieve over the last

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Speaker 2: fifty sixty seventy years. It's no problem for a woman

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Speaker 2: to get a sexpoy delivered to the office like there

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Speaker 2: it is. But if her co worker gets a flashlight

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Speaker 2: sitting on the desk, you know, people aren't going to

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Speaker 2: look at he has his needs, he has his sexuality

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Speaker 2: to express, just.

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Speaker 4: As I don't know would a lady take a big

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Speaker 4: old vibrator out of the packaging in the middle of

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Speaker 4: her corporate office.

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Speaker 5: And maybe it depends on the office.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's some of the more open minded kind

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Speaker 2: of certainly younger media companies that I've you know, crossed

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Speaker 2: paths with. You could get you a package from a

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Speaker 2: company that everybody knows that's the only thing they sell,

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Speaker 2: sitting on your desk and to be like, yeah, whatever,

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Speaker 2: that's my day, you know.

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Speaker 1: But from I don't think we yet.

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Speaker 2: Have that moment for men to be as comfortable in

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Speaker 2: addressing their own sexual needs.

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Speaker 5: Definitely not.

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Speaker 4: And I had a pretty illuminating question from a guy.

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Speaker 4: At one point, I flew out to a wedding in

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Speaker 4: San Francisco where my stepbrother had asked me to speak

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Speaker 4: about my ethical escort agency. He was having different people

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Speaker 4: speak about what they were passionate about in life. So

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Speaker 4: I ended up giving this talk to a bunch of

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Speaker 4: bio tech executives and scientists about what I was doing.

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Speaker 4: And they were an incredibly receptive group, right because they're

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Speaker 4: all just like terminally curious people. It's the guy who

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Speaker 4: just exactly they want to hear what the results of

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Speaker 4: the experiment were. And this gentleman came up to me afterwards,

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Speaker 4: and I'm telling you, this guy was over six feet tall.

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Speaker 4: He was some kind of a C suite executive by

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Speaker 4: a handsome guy by all measures, just like a total

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Speaker 4: success in life. And he sat down next to me

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Speaker 4: and he said, very quietly, he said, you know, I

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Speaker 4: know you talked about like men who have disabilities or

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Speaker 4: who are really obese or whatever coming to see you,

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Speaker 4: But do you ever get normal guys coming in? And

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Speaker 4: I said, yeah, most of them are normal, Like honestly,

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Speaker 4: it's also normal. It's like I'm selling bread and milk.

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Speaker 4: And I felt like he was palpably relieved to think, oh, okay, maybe,

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Speaker 4: and I think he was thinking maybe he might he

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Speaker 4: might make a booking. Wow, because you know, there's all

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Speaker 4: sorts of reasons. It's not like he couldn't get a date,

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Speaker 4: but very busy with a very demanding professional life. I

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Speaker 4: don't know what was going on in his marriage, not

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Speaker 4: my business, but maybe he just had a physical desire

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Speaker 4: that he needed to get handled and he didn't want

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Speaker 4: to feel ashamed about it.

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Speaker 2: What do you think is the commonality between men who

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Speaker 2: use sex work.

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Speaker 4: I think, and not just men, I think human beings,

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Speaker 4: especially now, are just starved for touch. I think we

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Speaker 4: are all stuck behind these screens all the time, and

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Speaker 4: that on top of the constant scrolling and everything virtual

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Speaker 4: and AI this, and and then especially people who work

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Speaker 4: with technology and they're in front of their laptops all

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Speaker 4: the time. I think at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: we're all human beings who need face to face presence

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Speaker 4: and just touch. Like literally, we had men who would

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Speaker 4: come not for the sex, if there was any sex,

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Speaker 4: there was very little, it was they would.

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Speaker 5: Really treasure the cuddles.

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Speaker 4: They wanted to have a long conversation, They wanted to

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Speaker 4: cuddle and just sort of have an intimate touch experience

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Speaker 4: that that they just weren't getting.

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Speaker 5: So they weren't.

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Speaker 4: It's not just that they weren't getting sex in their

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Speaker 4: regular lives. No, literally nobody was touching them.

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Speaker 3: I had a moment when I was after I got divorced.

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Speaker 2: I went through a really weird face and I hadn't

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Speaker 2: touched or been touched anybody for a long time, and

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Speaker 2: I've been running a lot, and I went to get

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Speaker 2: a massage and this person just like that hit back there.

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Speaker 2: They dug their elbow into me. And this it wasn't

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Speaker 2: just like a regular relief message feeling, which is like

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Speaker 2: oh that's oh, another person has just touched my body

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Speaker 2: in nothing sexual at all. It was you know, regular

359
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Speaker 2: kind of you know, sports massage place, and it really

360
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Speaker 2: hit me. It's like, oh, man, like I really missed

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Speaker 2: someone's skin touching mine, not even in a sexual way.

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Speaker 2: There's an intimacy and a communication that happens between two

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Speaker 2: people like that that reassures, and it's it's such a

364
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Speaker 2: salve of so many, so many things.

365
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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't want to get too woo woo

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Speaker 4: about it, because that what you just said is very

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Speaker 4: is very true, very real. And I think we saw

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Speaker 4: it during the COVID epidemic that we sort of worldwide

369
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,640
Speaker 4: went nuts because we were all stuck inside. So there

370
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,680
Speaker 4: is that genuine hunger for touch. There's also plenty of

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Speaker 4: vulgar jerks who just want to get off, right. Had

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Speaker 4: we had some of both for sure?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

375
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Speaker 2: When I remember listening to as a mate one of

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Speaker 2: his coworkers, because media we kept going all right, and

377
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 2: he said one of the younger people on their team,

378
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Speaker 2: she said to him, I haven't legally hugged someone in

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Speaker 2: six months, legally hugged something. Yeah, because in Melbourne was

380
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Speaker 2: oh I see ordinary lockdowns.

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Speaker 5: They were having illegal hugs.

382
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Speaker 3: I haven't legally hugged someone in six months.

383
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Speaker 2: Oh that's sad, Yeah, isn't it. Isn't it that people

384
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,399
Speaker 2: have their bubble person. But this person was breaking whatever

385
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,560
Speaker 2: laws were around which, yeah, and it was how it

386
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,359
Speaker 2: was traumatic for people. You were a writer, when did

387
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,640
Speaker 2: you start thinking like, I think this is a pathway.

388
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Speaker 4: Well, I thought about it long before it became a pathway.

389
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,160
Speaker 4: I thought about it in my early twenties too, because

390
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,119
Speaker 4: I was in New York City and I was young

391
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 4: and gorgeous and stick skinny, and I could have crushed

392
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 4: it as an escort. But I think what turned me

393
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Speaker 4: away from it in the end was just the knowledge

394
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 4: that it was criminal so if I got it, and

395
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 4: New York was a lot rougher than it was the

396
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 4: crack years in the nineties, and just the knowledge that

397
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Speaker 4: if I got into a dangerous situation, I couldn't call

398
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Speaker 4: the cops, and if I did, like I would be

399
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,919
Speaker 4: the one getting arrested. But I do remember I had

400
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 4: a friend who was a stripper in New York, and

401
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,199
Speaker 4: she was an improvisational dancer, so she was making no

402
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,120
Speaker 4: money at that but she worked two nights a week

403
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 4: and she funded her whole lifestyle in New York with that.

404
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 4: So that all was kind of in the back of

405
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 4: my mind when I came to New Zealand and a

406
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,159
Speaker 4: few years later discovered that it was entirely decriminalized in

407
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 4: that country, and that just blew my mind.

408
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 5: I didn't know. I mean, I'd heard.

409
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 4: About like Amsterdam and La La La, the red light

410
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:54,920
Speaker 4: light district, but I had a vague idea that there

411
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 4: was still like registration that you had to go through

412
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 4: and various legal hurdles, And in New Zealand it's the

413
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 4: same as selling a pizza. Wow, yeah, I mean not

414
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 4: quite you have to wear a condom, and you have

415
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 4: to be a legal New Zealand resident and so on,

416
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 4: but pretty darn close. So I first investigated it when

417
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,479
Speaker 4: I found out about the law, and I thought at

418
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Speaker 4: that time I was going to write a book about

419
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Speaker 4: New Zealand. So I called a bunch of Auckland brothels,

420
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 4: and one of them let me come in and talk

421
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,640
Speaker 4: to the ladies. And that was also eye opening, because

422
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 4: I thought I was going to go into a dark,

423
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,880
Speaker 4: seedy place and the ladies were going to be sort

424
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 4: of dodgy and shady or possibly abused and victimized. And

425
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 4: it was bright and full of sunshine and clean, and

426
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 4: they were selling drinks but I probably could have ordered

427
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 4: a flat white. And the ladies were all lovely in

428
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 4: their twenties, just normal people dressed like I used to

429
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 4: dress to go out on a Friday night. Like it's

430
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 4: just so not a big deal. But they also weren't

431
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,120
Speaker 4: coming at me with some speech about how I find

432
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 4: this works so empowering, because it isn't.

433
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Speaker 5: It's a job, right.

434
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 4: Maybe some women find it empowering, but also some women

435
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 4: find it a drag to get up and go to

436
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 4: the office on a Monday morning, and that's really how

437
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 4: they talked about it, and they said, sometimes there's guys

438
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 4: who are kind of sketchy, and this is what we do.

439
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 4: We have a system here with an alarm and security

440
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 4: that will come up. But also sometimes the guys are

441
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 4: super hot, and so that made it a little more realistic.

442
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 4: And you know how you can start out with kind

443
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 4: of a vague idea and you find out a little

444
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 4: more and a little more, and then slowly starts to

445
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 4: coalesce into oh, this could be a thing that maybe

446
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 4: I could do. So then fast forward another what six

447
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 4: years when my marriage fell apart and I had to

448
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 4: figure out a way to make money, I thought this

449
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 4: could be maybe a business that I could actually do.

450
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 5: And at that time I thought I'll write about it.

451
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 4: Because this would make a really cheeky funny book, and

452
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 4: it is a cheeky funny book, but it also ended

453
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 4: up being way more intense and complicated than I expected.

454
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 3: Hot do you even start? Is their territory?

455
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 2: Do you have to you know, go and see someone

456
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 2: and go, hey, I'm thinking of riping up across town

457
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: like again.

458
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 4: Because it's not criminalized, people assume that all it's run

459
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 4: by the gangs. You know, there's gonna be territory, there's

460
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 4: gonna be shakedowns. No, there isn't that. If somebody tried

461
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 4: to shake me down or were just like they were

462
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 4: trying to shake down the local dairy, I'd.

463
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 5: Call the cops. So no, I mean, I'm a huge geek.

464
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 4: So I reached out to people in the industry. I

465
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 4: went and met with a woman who ran a sensual

466
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 4: massage business in Auckland, and she told she gave me

467
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 4: some information and told me sort of, but she was like,

468
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 4: I only can only tell you so much because we

469
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 4: only do massage and we don't do full service, which

470
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 4: is what it's called in the industry. And she pointed

471
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 4: me to the community of anonymous online sex workers. And

472
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: as women always have, women are out there online anonymously

473
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 4: exchanging information and giving each other tipsentrics and ways to

474
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,199
Speaker 4: make more money and stay safe than all of that.

475
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 4: And so so I got a bit of an education,

476
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 4: but really the biggest education was boo on the ground

477
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 4: when I actually opened the place.

478
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean you've got to you've got to

479
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 2: rent a joint, you got to lace the place you

480
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: go to.

481
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 4: Everything was hard, Everything was hard. Nobody wanted to rent

482
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 4: a place to me. Nobody would take my ads for workers.

483
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 4: It was very hard to put out ads for clients.

484
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 4: I couldn't put a sign on the street. And I

485
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 4: sound like I'm winging, and I guess I kind of am,

486
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 4: because the whole time I was like, but wait, it's decriminalized.

487
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 5: Is it legal or isn't it's legal. I'm an entrepreneur.

488
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 4: I'm trying to I couldn't even get a bank to

489
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 4: agree to merchant services so that I can have an

490
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 4: FBOs card. Yeah, because many of them have morality clauses

491
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 4: where they won't extend those services to adult businesses.

492
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 3: All right, so that's a get out. Gosh, sorry, we

493
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 3: really can't help you there.

494
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 5: And I don't know what.

495
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 4: I couldn't speak to the details. But a number of

496
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 4: kiwis have reacted to that with eyes rolling, saying, oh,

497
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 4: they've got their myths in arms deals and dodgy pharmaceutical

498
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 4: industries that are addicting people to opiates. But what They're

499
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 4: not going to lend you a little brothel? Yeah, and

500
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 4: I'm not even talking about I'm talking about renting me

501
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 4: an FTPAUS machine so I can run credit cards.

502
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 5: It's actually going to make you money.

503
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: So if people could have a go you get one

504
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 2: point four percent or whatever on every go full service

505
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: there you got two point five or remix.

506
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 4: You did eventually do it because I told the lady

507
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: in the bank that I was running a temporarily temporary

508
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 4: employment agency, which is not a lie, No it was,

509
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 4: And I gave her my company number, and I saw

510
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 4: on her screen that it came up in the screen

511
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 4: Brothel and massage because I'd been nothing but totally honest

512
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 4: with the government. And I don't know if she didn't

513
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 4: see it or if she pretended not to see it,

514
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 4: but she just kept chatting about the weather, and she

515
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 4: put through my application.

516
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 2: Oh I saw, if any other go down at RK room,

517
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: how can I get like eight double beds plays and

518
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 2: all the allen Key's in the world, like the stand

519
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: up would be wild Man.

520
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: Well, No, what I ended up doing was taking over

521
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 4: the business lease on an eight room hotel, so a

522
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 4: lot of that was taken care of. But then, of

523
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,239
Speaker 4: course I also had a motel to run, which had

524
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 4: its own problems.

525
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 2: What did There's always like discreete rear entrances. You know

526
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: what people trying to I want to come, Like, how

527
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: do they make contact to them?

528
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: Make a phone call? Like how do people arrive?

529
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 5: Oh, they made phone calls.

530
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, they would often try to text, but we really

531
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 4: tried to speak to clients when when they were new,

532
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 4: because you can learn so much over the phone. Oh yeah,

533
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: everything from cultural background to whether he was trying to

534
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 4: push against our rules, which would be a big red flag,

535
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 4: to whether he was just polite and respectful. It told

536
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 4: us a lot.

537
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

538
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 4: And then as far as discrete entrance, because it was

539
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 4: already a motel and you could pull in, and the

540
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 4: ones who are really nervous, we just pull around this

541
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 4: building and then no one can see your.

542
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 5: Car from the street.

543
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want to be nervous in that situation.

544
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 4: Well, plenty of them were, and I'll tell you one

545
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 4: of them. Oh my god, this was such a cringe moment.

546
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 4: But he was an American who I think he was

547
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 4: one of the sailors who was in who was in

548
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 4: town for the storm season, and he had texted he

549
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 4: had set up an appointment and confirmed it by tech

550
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 4: on his mobile a couple of days in advance. So

551
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 4: we texted him on the day of the booking to

552
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 4: let him know that he was confirmed for two PM

553
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 4: or whatever it was, and he was set up on

554
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 4: eye message, so his wife got it on their family tablet.

555
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: Back in the Stades.

556
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 4: No, I think she was there in New Zealand, but

557
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 4: I'll tell you he got an earfull. He called us

558
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: angry as though it was ourful, and I was like, buddy,

559
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 4: maybe don't set up family sharing if you're going to

560
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 4: make a booking with an escort.

561
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 5: But that was the only time that happened.

562
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 3: We just need to play a couple of ads. We

563
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 3: back right after the break.

564
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: When you starting an ethical agency, what's the delineation between

565
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: ethical and I guess not as ethical as you are.

566
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 4: Well, the centure guiding light for us was always consent,

567
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 4: so we never well.

568
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 5: First of all, the ladies told us when they were available.

569
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 4: They told us what their boundaries and limits were in

570
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 4: terms of what services they would offer, what kind of

571
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 4: guys they would see, what kind not, like for example,

572
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 4: some younger women didn't want to see super older clients.

573
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 4: But also sometimes those boundaries become progressively clear as they

574
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: moved ahead, like oh I can't handle that, or I'm

575
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 4: very good with this kind of kink or fetish or

576
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 4: whatever it might be anyway, so they would tell us

577
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 4: when they were available. Clients would view photos online in

578
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 4: which I had removed all identifying features, so no faces,

579
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: no tattoos, no scars, or anything like that.

580
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 5: He would ask to.

581
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 4: Make a booking with the lady, and then I would

582
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 4: ring the lady if it was within her available hours,

583
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 4: and tell her everything I knew about the guy, if

584
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 4: he was a new client from our conversation or if

585
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 4: we'd seen him before from his notes, and she would

586
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 4: make a call if she wanted to see him. Then

587
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 4: she would come in, and we provided all of We

588
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 4: paid for all the advertising, we paid for, We had

589
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,239
Speaker 4: the clothes and the heels all ready for them. And

590
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 4: bearing in mind, in a lot of places, you know,

591
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 4: consent can be quite nuanced in ways that you wouldn't

592
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 4: really expect. So in a lot of places, not only

593
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 4: the lady has to pay for her own advertising and

594
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: her own clothes, but often she's being charged a room fee.

595
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 4: So when she comes in to work, she's already in

596
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 4: debt to the agency, which kind of makes it more

597
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 4: difficult to consent if you have to pay off that debt. Right,

598
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 4: So there was never any debt of any kind with us.

599
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 4: So the lady would come in early. She would lock

600
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 4: herself in the service room and the window was tinted

601
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 4: so that she could see out, but the gent could

602
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 4: not see in when he came up to the door.

603
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 4: So then he would come up to the door and

604
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 4: he would knock, and she would have a look out.

605
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 4: And if she felt good about the situation, and also

606
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 4: importantly in a small town, if.

607
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 5: She didn't know him, yes, yeah, she would let him

608
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 5: in and then the booking would proceed.

609
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 4: But even then I told the ladies, if there's if

610
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: you don't feel comfortable at any time, you cut the

611
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 4: booking short, and if clothing has been taken off, I

612
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 4: will pay you.

613
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 5: Out even if he doesn't pay Wow.

614
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: So they always knew that if alarm bell started going off,

615
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 4: they were still going to be able to pay that

616
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 4: electrical bill that they were counting here, whatever it is.

617
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 4: So that really is I think short form.

618
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: I really liked the idea that even in the entire

619
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,959
Speaker 2: experience for the customer is the power is not with

620
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: you the whole way, like or even to the point

621
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: where like, yeah, you're here, you've put your car around

622
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: the back. We've got your details and everything up, but

623
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: there's another stage where she will still decide whether or

624
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: not this is going to happen for you. Just because

625
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: you'll hear it doesn't mean it's going to happen.

626
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh absolutely.

627
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 4: In fact, I had one lady who had the most

628
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: eloquent thing. She said, She said, I don't sell sex,

629
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 4: and I said you don't, Well, how do you think

630
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 4: of the work you do here? She said, well, I

631
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 4: sell an opportunity, and if he's going to be polite

632
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 4: and respectful, then I will consent to have sex with him.

633
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 4: But he's only buying the opportunity. After that, it's my call.

634
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 4: And I was like, girlfriend, you know what you're doing?

635
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 5: That is so good?

636
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: It's interesting we speak today.

637
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: There was a story about a business, hospitality business here,

638
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: and there was staff that were put in fairly auditive

639
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: situations and that money was dependent getting paid was dependent on,

640
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: you know, being involved in whatever drugs or whatever was

641
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: going on.

642
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 4: So what was going they were being asked to participate

643
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: in criminal activity or well.

644
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so essentially it's a VIP room at a hospitality venue.

645
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: When there were young ladies in there who wore very

646
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: different clothes to the other ladies outside of this place,

647
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 2: and they were bringing bottle surface and stuff like that.

648
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: But there was drugs and sex.

649
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: Going on and they witnessed to it or being invited

650
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: to join in, or perhaps that there was one story

651
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: at the end of the night, the person who was

652
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: paying them was like, you know, you've got a duel

653
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: line off my chest and tell me how much you're

654
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: worth and I'll pay.

655
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 3: You in cash.

656
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 5: Oh that's disgusting.

657
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, right, And so I've kind of been

658
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: thrown by that.

659
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 4: Well that's kind of a horrible example. But I'll tell

660
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 4: you what that makes me think of. A lot of

661
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 4: ladies now will talk about, Oh, I'll just go be

662
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 4: a sugar baby. And there's this idea in the culture

663
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 4: that you can get yourself a sugar daddy who is

664
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 4: going to be a man with plenty of money, who's

665
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 4: going to shower you with cash and you won't even

666
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 4: have to have sex with him. And oh, my dear,

667
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: men are not going to First of all, they're not

668
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 4: going to shower you with cash probably ever. And if

669
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 4: they are giving you any kind of a large quantity

670
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 4: of money, there is definitely going to be sex involved.

671
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 4: But what I find particularly perilous about there is that

672
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: the rules are so nebulous, right, you don't know, it's

673
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: not perfectly clear what arrangement you're getting into, what services

674
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: you're offering for that price, and what he's giving you

675
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 4: in return. So very often these sugar baby relationships should

676
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 4: be like, Oh, I went and spent I just spent

677
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 4: a long weekend with him. He took me out on

678
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 4: holiday and I got to go on this free holiday

679
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: and I got five hundred dollars. I'm like, wow, do

680
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: you know what an escort as beautiful as you would

681
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 4: charge for a three day, three night date, probably ten

682
00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 4: thousand dollars.

683
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: And let's take it from there the girlfriend experience.

684
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 4: Because it's not just the sex. You are a therapist,

685
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 4: you are an actress. You are really controlling the whole

686
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 4: situation and making the man feel like the center of

687
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 4: the universe for three days and three nights.

688
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 5: Are you kidding me? Don't undersell yourself.

689
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's I guess. I remember when the Heidi

690
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: Flyes thing came out. That was is like thirty years ago,

691
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: but I remember one of those two lines, the Charlie

692
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: Sheen line, which we'll get to But she said, there's

693
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: these young women. They're doing it anyway, but you know,

694
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: they're not getting roles in films or whatever. And they're

695
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: the same people that come to my They're out there

696
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: having sex with these guys hoping to get cast in something.

697
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: But the same guys come and see me. They could

698
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: be getting paid five.

699
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 4: Brand a time, right, And in fact, what I was

700
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: hearing from the lot of the ladies who came and

701
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 4: worked at the Badge as they weren't even getting promised

702
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 4: movie roles. They're just out there on Tinder and bumble having,

703
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 4: as they said, bad sex for free, and a lot

704
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 4: of the time the guy didn't even buy dinner. So like,

705
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 4: what am I getting out of this steal? And I'll

706
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 4: tell you Asher, I have heard that from more and more,

707
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: especially young women, when I tell them.

708
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 5: About this book, they're like, yeah, those dating apps.

709
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 4: I'm done. I'm just done no more. They just feel

710
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 4: chewed up and spit out.

711
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: After I got divorced, I spent about nine months on

712
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: tinderre It was.

713
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: Terrible, absolutely terrible, because I'm sober by at this point

714
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: and very mindfully, very mindfully being very different about the

715
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: way I was connecting with people on an emotional level,

716
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: and teenage me is like, when did you become afraid

717
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: of just transactional physicality?

718
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: What's going on with you?

719
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: But someone told me, oh, men use these dating apps

720
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: when they're horning. Women use these dating ups when they're lonely.

721
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah right, and.

722
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: That men use love to get sex and the women

723
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: use sex to get love. There's another version of that.

724
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: And then working late years later, I'm working on working

725
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: in the dating reality space and I I met guys

726
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: are like twenty eight and they've never introduced a women

727
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: to their parents, not once.

728
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 1: Hot dudes who just have sex all the time.

729
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: But it's this endless stream of like six weeks, seven week,

730
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: ten week kind of relationships.

731
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 3: And the women are.

732
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 2: Finding themselves adapting the way they connect with people to

733
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: match that just because they want to meet people. But

734
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: they if they don't, they're not going to get any

735
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: kind of innmacy that they're searching for. I don't wonder

736
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: what that's doing to us with men who will as

737
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: you mentioned, they're buying the opportunity, all right, they're purchasing,

738
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: they're paying for the opportunity, but they got no chat.

739
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: They can't talk. They never learn about themselves, because for

740
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 2: the parts of a woman's body to be ready for sex,

741
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: you have to not make her pissed off in the

742
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: previous four couple hours.

743
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: You know.

744
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 4: Also from what I hear, they're often bad at sex. Well, yeah,

745
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 4: because a lot of these the younger gents are learning

746
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 4: about sex porn and they think all they need to

747
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 4: do is flip her legs over her head and go

748
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 4: at it, and she's gonna have nine screaming orgasms.

749
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's just not on.

750
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 4: And so what we would get a lot of the

751
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: time is, you know, a guy would make contact in

752
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 4: his fifties or sixties, and I'd offer him to whichever

753
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 4: ladies were available, and ladies in their twenties would be.

754
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 5: Like, oh, that's really old. He's gonna smell like old man.

755
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 5: Oh I don't know.

756
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 4: And then they'd come down and they'd be like, I

757
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 4: just had the best shag of my life. Or I

758
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 4: didn't even shag him, but I just got the best

759
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 4: head of my life. I had three orgasms, and I

760
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 4: got paid for it. I can't believe I got paid

761
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 4: for that. Or they were just like I can't believe

762
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 4: how courtly. He was like, he treated me, he held

763
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: the towel up when I got out of the shower,

764
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 4: and he dried me. And they're like, I can't.

765
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 5: Men these days have no respect. I don't know. I

766
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 5: don't know. I don't know what kids these days are doing.

767
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 2: Sure, I'll tell you well, not learning that that kind

768
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 2: of stuff, because all those things you just described were

769
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 2: a part of the things that as a young man

770
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 2: you learn, are a part of getting.

771
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: To this point.

772
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 3: You got to have some game, right, You've got to

773
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 3: have some game.

774
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 2: You've got to have some chat. You've got to be

775
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: okay and read the room and understand well, maybe you

776
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: should not into that tonight. Learning along the way and

777
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: being mindful, and yeah.

778
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 5: It's true. It went both ways too.

779
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 4: So we would often have guys ask or who's the

780
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 4: youngest girl you have on today? Or has she seen

781
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 4: anyone before me today? Which was a particularly lucky one.

782
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 4: But sometimes I would say, oh, you know, we only.

783
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 4: I would never say we only, but I would say,

784
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 4: this one who is twenty three, is not available. This

785
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 4: lady is in her forties. But I think you'll find

786
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 4: she's incredibly fit and a really wonderful human being. And

787
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 4: I hope, I hope you'll give a shot, try it out.

788
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 5: And our more mature ladies were made the most money.

789
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 4: I'll tell you that because they knew what they were doing,

790
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 4: and they had the skills, and they also were able

791
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 4: to sort of take the man in hand and sort

792
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 4: of show him how it's done.

793
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 5: Everybody emerged delighted.

794
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: Oh that'sess I like that.

795
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 3: That's a good review there on yelp.

796
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 5: No.

797
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, the lady who made the most money at our

798
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 4: agency was fifty years old and she only came in

799
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 4: one day a week, and she had a number of regulars,

800
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 4: mostly elderly men, who booked for two and three hours

801
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 4: at a time, very little sex, a lot of talk,

802
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 4: a lot of chat. There might have been some cups

803
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 4: of tea. And she left for the day with one

804
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 4: thousand dollars in just her base fees. And I don't

805
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: even have any idea what she was charging in extras

806
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 4: and tips.

807
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: Wow, just a moment away to pys. Some bills went

808
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: back with Antonia after the break. Intimacy and pleasure ease

809
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: as we need it as a human as part of

810
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: that functioning, like we don't judget probably if we don't

811
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: move around.

812
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: You know, we're designed to move.

813
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 2: We have muscles inside our bodies do through some of

814
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 2: the work most of it, but we actually have to

815
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: get up and sit down a lot to get all

816
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: the you know, everything worked through us. Similarly, there's got

817
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: to be things that only happen when we are in

818
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 2: those connecting moments with another person, these kind of nonverbal things,

819
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: and as long as there's consent around paying for it

820
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: shouldn't really change that.

821
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think there's just so much hypocrisy in

822
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: the judgment, right, because I was aware that plenty of

823
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 4: people didn't agree with what we were doing and were

824
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 4: judgmental about it. And yet here I was in a

825
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 4: town of eighty thousand people and I had three thousand

826
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 4: contacts in my professional phone, So you do the mass, right,

827
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 4: Like half of those are male, and of those males,

828
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 4: what like a good ten thousand are going to be children, right,

829
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 4: So I had maybe ten percent of the adult male

830
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 4: population in my phone.

831
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 5: So I think a lot of people agreed with what

832
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 5: you just said, They're just not going to admit it

833
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 5: in public.

834
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: The shame factor is so it's such a useless It's

835
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: just a useless thing to peddle around. It just causes

836
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 2: so many problems because when the shame is there, things

837
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: get caught up into a boiling point, and that's you know,

838
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. I want to speak for everyone, but

839
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: I can see how if enough shame builds up yet

840
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: you still need some sort of release, you're going to

841
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: possibly make a choice that is bad for you, bad

842
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 2: for somebody else.

843
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 4: I want to avoid the idea that is out there

844
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 4: in the culture that sex workers aren't going to absorb

845
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 4: the rape guys, right because I think that rape has

846
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 4: more to do with violence and a twisted way of

847
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 4: looking at the world.

848
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 5: And less to do with sexual deprivation. Right.

849
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 4: So I think men who are very frustrated, to be honest,

850
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 4: I think they're more likely to fall into depression. That's

851
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 4: not necessarily going to make them violent. We had men

852
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 4: who came and saw us who had not had actual

853
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 4: contact or touch of any kind for ten fifteen years.

854
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 5: And they hadn't gone out and become rapists.

855
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 4: They'd just become sad, and they were so happy to

856
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 4: have found us and to find a place.

857
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 5: Because if we're going.

858
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 4: To talk about them men, let's also talk about that

859
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 4: experiences that a lot of places you go in and

860
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 4: it's just kind of like this greasy bar scene and

861
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 4: ladies lined up in kind of this janky lingerie, and

862
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 4: then you have to go to this depressing room with

863
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 4: like maybe there's a vinyl couch that gets wiped off

864
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 4: between bookings. I mean, the whole thing is really set

865
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 4: up to make you feel horrible about yourself. And so

866
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,479
Speaker 4: what we offered was a place where a lady who

867
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 4: was healthy and happy to be there and not on drugs,

868
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 4: greeted you and gave you a complimentary beverage, and she

869
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 4: was not in her underwear. She was dressed as you

870
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 4: would dress on a date. We put clean sheets on

871
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 4: the bed, we did the clean bathroom, and fresh towels

872
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 4: every time. There were fresh flowers. And you can say

873
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 4: that's just window dressing, but actually I think it created

874
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 4: a psychically more healthy experiences for the guy and the woman,

875
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 4: and it also kept her safer, right because it put

876
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 4: him in a space not of.

877
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 5: I just got to get my rocks off and get

878
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 5: the hell out of here.

879
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 4: I just too, Oh, I'm going to maybe get to

880
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 4: know this lady and sit and have a beer and

881
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 4: have a common have a cuddle and it just it

882
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 4: made it at once more pleasant and also safer.

883
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 2: I think sometimes engaging with the idea that work is work,

884
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: and I'm happy that, you know, sex workers have a

885
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: safe place to work, and there's you know, barriers and

886
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: boundaries and the security guy and a call button la

887
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: la da. But not my daughter, well but not couldn't

888
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 2: bear it if it was if my daughter went did that.

889
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: But everybody so much daughter, everybody that works for you

890
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: someone's daughter.

891
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I think that guy who says but not

892
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 4: my daughter, he's probably the same guy who feels uncomfortable

893
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 4: about his daughter having sex in any event with anyone.

894
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 4: Like I mean, any guy, any father, is probably gonna

895
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 4: feel a little bit uncomfortable about the thought of his

896
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 4: daughter getting slammed against the wall, even if she's delighted

897
00:41:58,640 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 4: to do so.

898
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 5: Fair enough.

899
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But so for example, someone's listening to this

900
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 2: and they're putting two and two together and they think about,

901
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: hang on a second. You know, little Susanna who's going

902
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: to university in Queensland. She seems to be driving much

903
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: nicer car than hang on, what's going on here? And

904
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: they started, you know, figuring out what you just say

905
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: to people who I don't know start to discover things

906
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 2: about their own kids that might be they might be

907
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: getting work in this space and they, you know, haven't.

908
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: Realized it yet.

909
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 5: Be proud of little Susannah.

910
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's doing well for her so and she's probably

911
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 4: going to graduate with no student loans.

912
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: Good on her, all right, Yeah, No, I mean, look, the.

913
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 4: Thing is, I wasn't plucking women from our life of

914
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 4: protracted virginity, after which they were going to marry one

915
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 4: guy and stay married for thirty years. Women are having

916
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 4: multiple sex partners, frequently anonymously not seeing them again as

917
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 4: we were discussing on these apps. So for them, it

918
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 4: wasn't like, am I gonna do this or sit at

919
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 4: home and read a book and.

920
00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 5: Do a little embroidery.

921
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 4: Am I going to do this and get paid one

922
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 4: hundred and twenty one hundred and fifty dollars an hour?

923
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 5: Or am I going to go do it for free?

924
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 5: And they invariably preferred to do the former.

925
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:09,959
Speaker 1: Or have to pay for dinner.

926
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, Earliah, it's gonna cost me money to

927
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 2: have bad sex.

928
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 3: That's no good. Nobody wants that.

929
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, And they often said, look, I love that everyone

930
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 4: knows what's expected here. I'll go out on a tender

931
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 4: date and I'll be having dinner with the guy, and

932
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 4: I don't even know if he's listening to what I'm saying.

933
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 4: What is he expecting I'm going to do for this

934
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 4: dinner afterwards? And whereas they would say, I get into

935
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 4: that room, I know what he's hoping for.

936
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 5: I know what I'm prepared to give. He hands over

937
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 5: the money. It's all clear, it's all honest. We're good.

938
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: You've chatted about it beforehand.

939
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, everything nothing changes, keys in the middle, everythings

940
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: above board. And that's really the safety aspect of it

941
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: is such as I think that's so many people don't

942
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 2: quite understand how it is literally in the most vulnerable

943
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: position you can be in, Like there is no more

944
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: vulnerable position than we're wanting to be in.

945
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you're a lot more vulnerable if you're half

946
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 4: drunk because you've been on a date with this guy

947
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 4: you barely know, and he takes you back to his

948
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 4: house and closes the door and there's no one watching.

949
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 4: We got all these guys Redgio's on our cameras, and

950
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: they knew that they were that there was a madam

951
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 4: who was timing the booking. So that's actually a much

952
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 4: safer position to be in than to just.

953
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: Start a knock. Were you there with the knock? Oh?

954
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, so she needed to come out, like I had

955
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 4: a timer set. She wasn't out within a couple of

956
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 4: minutes of that time I was calling, and if she

957
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 4: didn't pick up, I was pounding on the door. But

958
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 4: I think like maybe only a couple of times did

959
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 4: I need to pound, And at least once it was

960
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 4: oh my god, we were having such a good time.

961
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I just woke right out.

962
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you are. You are significantly tall than me.

963
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: You're a no nonsense kind of person, and you have

964
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 2: a I can't understand how there's a tone in your

965
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: voice that doesn't mess around when you needed.

966
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 4: I think I also cultivated I mean, I've always been

967
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 4: tall and strong, but I think I cultivated a real

968
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 4: no bullshit persona as a madam, right because I had to.

969
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, But that that makes people want to come work

970
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: for you too, because they feel safe. Yeah, And then

971
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: they feel safe as you mentioned, you know earlier you

972
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: were talking to your daughter about what is mum, but

973
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: your family is quite large.

974
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: Now was at six.

975
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 4: At one point there were six children between the two

976
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 4: of us, but two of those young ladies have now

977
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 4: grown up. So and my eldest son unfortunately died. Oh yeah,

978
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 4: so it's a lot calmer a house.

979
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 3: So I'm sorry.

980
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for saying that he had quite profound disabilities.

981
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: So in a way, it sounds weird to say it,

982
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 4: but it was easier for him than it might have

983
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 4: been to grow up that way.

984
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: You'd have a lot of a lot of empathy, I

985
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: guess for people who did have disabilities who are coming

986
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: to you, and the people that cared for them, who

987
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: wanted to see their sons, their daughters, you know, being nurtured,

988
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: being nourished.

989
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 4: I felt quite I feel quite ferociously about that because

990
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 4: there was a moment when as we were coming to

991
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 4: terms with quite how profoundly disabled Silas was. You know,

992
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 4: you there's a moment as a parent when you realize

993
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 4: he's never going to have a profession, he may never

994
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 4: be verbal, he's never going to have the experience of

995
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 4: falling in love. But I would have wanted him to

996
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 4: have the experience of touch. Yeah, and there's only one

997
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 4: way that was ever going to happen. Yea, and I

998
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 4: would have done I would have done it even in

999
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 4: a criminalized environment.

1000
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 5: Just made it happen. But I think it's so important for.

1001
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 4: It to be to be available and to and because

1002
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 4: it was decriminalized, you know, caregivers who would contact us.

1003
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 5: They could ask us all the questions.

1004
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 4: They didn't need to be furtive and sneaky about it,

1005
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 4: and they could say, this is this is what my

1006
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 4: person is dealing with, what does your what do your

1007
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 4: ladies offer? Can we match them with somebody who is

1008
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 4: going to be comfortable so there's no shame and uh,

1009
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 4: and we could have quite open about which is so important.

1010
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:02,760
Speaker 3: Just a bit of my background.

1011
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 2: I sat on the board of Say in Australia, which

1012
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: was Australia's oldest mental health charity. Was an acronym came

1013
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: up in the eighties Schizophrenica eight National Emergency. It was

1014
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: right when the big anti psychotic drugs were showing up

1015
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: and they were closing big institutions and suddenly there's people

1016
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 2: in the community that.

1017
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: Weren't previously in the community.

1018
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: And so I was just trying to figure and the

1019
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 2: terrible lot of stigma, huge amount stigma. So I'm very

1020
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 2: aware of how things like the ndios, which is an

1021
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: incredible thing. A country has the role that that can

1022
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: play in giving someone dignity agency, freeing up someone who's caring.

1023
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 3: For another person. So not just so there's a person with.

1024
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 2: Its disability, but there's also the people that care for

1025
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: them that have to say goodbye to their career. Sometimes

1026
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: it's an incredible thing. And a couple months ago, there

1027
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: was a question about sex work on the NDO.

1028
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 5: Oh yes, I've heard about this.

1029
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the idea that they're no longer going to

1030
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: be able to pay for sex work. People are, yeah,

1031
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 2: that shouldn't be by by that, But say there's people

1032
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 2: listening who you know might be I don't know, feeling

1033
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: a bit funny, and the tell me about the ndos and

1034
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: about sex work being on the ndios. You know, what

1035
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,959
Speaker 2: would you say to people about why sex work needs

1036
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 2: to be on the indios?

1037
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 4: Well, I guess my first thing would be to have

1038
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 4: to ask them if they were in front of me,

1039
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 4: or to have them ask themselves, what is it that

1040
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 4: is so disturbing to you about it being paid for?

1041
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 5: What is it?

1042
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 4: Do you think that sex is not important or not necessary?

1043
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 4: I mean it's okay to help people with their grocery bills, right,

1044
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 4: and to have access to clean water. How would you

1045
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 4: feel with a life with no touch?

1046
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 5: Ever?

1047
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 4: But I guess it's the sexual touch, right, Like they

1048
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 4: wouldn't have a problem with this person getting a pad

1049
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 4: on the shoulder from a nurse. Yeah, but it's even

1050
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 4: more and it's not the intimate touch because I'll tell

1051
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 4: you know, like when people are bedridden, nurses need to

1052
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 4: come in and and wash their most private bits and

1053
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 4: even sometimes like get up in there in ways that

1054
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 4: even a husband and wife might not do.

1055
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 5: So it's really.

1056
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 4: Specifically the sexual touch towards orgasm, which is terrifying. And

1057
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 4: people don't think the government should be involved in that.

1058
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 4: I don't know, but the government has the right to

1059
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 4: really even to kill you or to tell you to

1060
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 4: kill in a war situation.

1061
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 5: So why do you put that line there?

1062
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1063
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 4: I suspect it comes down to how we feel about

1064
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 4: sex in our own lives, that it's something naughty or

1065
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 4: it's a guilty pleasure.

1066
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: You're human, you're a person, you're smart, you're funny, you've

1067
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: been a university, you've got a job. Just to switch

1068
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: on as everybody else you want that touch as well.

1069
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 3: When sex workers start.

1070
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: To I mean, I'm assuming these people show up to

1071
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: see you, they've never had sex with a disabled person.

1072
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: How do you navigate helping people? You know, this is

1073
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 2: the client that's come today, This is a client, is he?

1074
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 5: Oh? That was never an issue.

1075
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 4: I worked out by the numbers at one point that

1076
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 4: sixty five percent of the ladies who worked with us

1077
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 4: were either current or former nurses, or women who'd worked

1078
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 4: in hospice care or caregiving of some kind. It's a

1079
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 4: very nurturing role. So sure there were some girls who

1080
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 4: are more like party girls who I wouldn't put a

1081
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 4: person with disabilities with, but I had always a heap

1082
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 4: of nurses who would be more than happy to see

1083
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 4: them and actually often found it fascinating. And one lady

1084
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 4: even who saw a gent who came to us who

1085
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 4: was afflicted with a number of disabilities, including he was

1086
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 4: somewhere on the spectrum. She finished her booking in tears

1087
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 4: and I said, oh my god, what happened? Was he horrible?

1088
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 4: And she said he was so true and so real.

1089
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 4: She said, that was the most incredible experience. I felt

1090
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 4: awful taking his money. Wow, yeah, so they not only

1091
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 4: were they happy to do it, they often found it

1092
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 4: quite meaningful.

1093
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 3: There was a time when there was no ramps.

1094
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 2: There was no forget about it, like if you had

1095
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: a disability, if you need a chair to get around,

1096
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: if you neurodivergent, you just weren't in society. And then

1097
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 2: through the seventies eighties it sort of.

1098
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: Happened more and more and more.

1099
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: But it's still kind of like, yeah, we're cool with here,

1100
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 2: but let's not talk about your sexuality, or let's not

1101
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 2: even put that on the table, that we can't address,

1102
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: that we feel weird about that, that doesn't seem very fair,

1103
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: or you know, any kind of dignity or agency at all.

1104
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a little hangover from Christian Puritanism,

1105
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 4: you know, sort of this idea that we'll take pity

1106
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 4: on the week and the wounded and sort of get

1107
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 4: you to baseline, allow you to get down that ramp

1108
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 4: to get to the grocery store. But pleasure is not

1109
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 4: prioritized whereas I mean, I think it's a part of

1110
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 4: a healthy life and a necessary part of a healthy life.

1111
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't think we're there yet as a society.

1112
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 2: As we mentioned earlier. It's connecting with another person. It

1113
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be sexual, can just literally be touching somebody.

1114
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, but sometimes it does need to be sexual.

1115
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 4: I actually had a woman reach out to me who

1116
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 4: worked in what you call it elder care requirement homes

1117
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 4: elder care, and she said, I'm wanting to get government

1118
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 4: funding to get sex workers into these homes because a

1119
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 4: lot of the guys who are experiencing dementia, they get

1120
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 4: quite sexually aggressive because they have these urges, but they

1121
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 4: don't know how to present them in a way that's appropriate,

1122
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 4: so they'll just grab a nurse's boob or something. And

1123
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 4: I think if we could get sex workers in there

1124
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 4: to get their physical needs taken care of, that would

1125
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 4: become much less of a problem. I don't think a

1126
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 4: project went anywhere, but I think it was a really

1127
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 4: good idea.

1128
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 3: That's fascinating.

1129
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 4: But then let's dial it back from disability, Like, there's

1130
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 4: lots of people who don't have disabilities who have a

1131
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 4: really hard time pairing up, people who are cripplingly shy,

1132
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 4: who are able to reach out and make contact people

1133
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 4: on the autism spectrum. Okay, you can argue that that's

1134
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 4: a disability, But like, how about people who are just

1135
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 4: conventionally extremely ugly? Like, I know it's not particularly politically

1136
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 4: correct for me to say that, but let's get real

1137
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 4: on tender. You either swipe right or you swipe left.

1138
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and there's a lot of guys no one's

1139
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 4: swiping right on. So are you are you really going

1140
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 4: to feel good about saying that that person should never

1141
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 4: have any sexual contact for the rest of their lives.

1142
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 4: And I guess the answer is, oh, well, but the

1143
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 4: government shouldn't be involved in it. But what if that's

1144
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 4: their only option?

1145
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is the alternative that we ostracize this guy,

1146
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 2: that this we're going to drive this as an other,

1147
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: this person further and further away into it to an

1148
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: out group. I mean, when I think about men in

1149
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: Australia right now, So this thing the other day about

1150
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 2: they ran a pole on asking Australians who'd vte for

1151
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: Harris or Trump. By the time this air is we

1152
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:48,439
Speaker 2: will know who the Americans voted for. But Australia kind

1153
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: of mimics the numbers in the States, and that it

1154
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 2: was men who gravitated towards this guy. Men who, particularly

1155
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: men who feel they're being left behind, that they're being

1156
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 2: left out, that they are.

1157
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to be the men they feel they are.

1158
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: And that it's you know, it's you know, it's getting

1159
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 2: too woken, all this kind of stuff.

1160
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,240
Speaker 3: So what do we get if we push these gus away?

1161
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 4: Well, I think realistically what we get is we push

1162
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 4: the more towards porn. And I don't have a problem

1163
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 4: with porn writ large, but I do think it concerns

1164
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 4: me that everyone has a twenty four to seven porn.

1165
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 5: Factory in their back pocket.

1166
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 4: And what I was seeing as I talked about earlier

1167
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,479
Speaker 4: from the women, about how it's impacting the way that

1168
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 4: men are able to connect with them, both physically and

1169
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,280
Speaker 4: in terms of chat in a booking, We're no longer

1170
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 4: connecting with people one on one. And if we push

1171
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 4: men towards porn, well, I mean, you know what you

1172
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 4: see there, I mean, use what you need to to

1173
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 4: get off. But if that's all you have, then sex

1174
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 4: no longer becomes about human contact and intimacy. It becomes

1175
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 4: about watching men do things to women instead of people

1176
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 4: doing things together, which is hopefully what sex should be

1177
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 4: all about. Yeah, So for me, in my book, that's

1178
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 4: much less healthy than having a consenting adult sex worker

1179
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 4: come in and treat you with kindness.

1180
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 2: When I was finishing high school, they had, you know,

1181
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: a couple in the last week, they had some people

1182
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 2: come and talk to us, and there was one kind

1183
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: of vague going to it all boys Catholic school that

1184
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 2: left me some very weird views on women.

1185
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 3: Took me a long time to undo.

1186
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 2: I wasn't a fan of it, but there was a

1187
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: guy that came and talked about consent and stuff like this.

1188
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: If say, for example.

1189
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: You get invited and you're there to speak to a

1190
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: bunch of guys who are seventeen in Queensland, eighteen, and

1191
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 2: you said the wells about to head out into the world,

1192
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: what would you tell them about women, about sex, about porn.

1193
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a big question. Well, the best comparison that

1194
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 4: I've heard, I think originally it came from Dan Savage,

1195
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 4: who I'm a big fan of from going way back,

1196
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 4: is that porn is to sex like watching an action

1197
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 4: movie is to driving. Right, if you're watching a high

1198
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 4: speed car chase on a highway where things are blowing

1199
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 4: up left and right, Yeah, that's exciting, right, but that's

1200
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 4: not really how it goes. And if you train yourself

1201
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 4: to where that's the only way you can think about driving,

1202
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 4: you're gonna be operating a dangerous vehicle when you actually

1203
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:19,760
Speaker 4: get behind the wheel.

1204
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 2: You might get way you want to go, but you

1205
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: might cause some problems along the way.

1206
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the problems are not just in your communication

1207
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 4: with women, because the other problem that we saw with

1208
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 4: a lot of the guys who had watched a lot

1209
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 4: of porn when they came to see us is that

1210
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 4: they couldn't achieve orgasm through sex. They had to pull

1211
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 4: out and masturbate to achieve orgasm because they were so

1212
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 4: used to wanking it in front of porn. They had

1213
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 4: to touch themselves in this very specific way in noworady

1214
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 4: to get there. I mean, the industry we just called

1215
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 4: it porn dick. He's got porn dick. That's why he

1216
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 4: has to get himself off. And so do you really

1217
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 4: want to be in a position where you're not able

1218
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 4: to orgasm with the a beautiful woman who's right there

1219
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 4: in front of you.

1220
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 5: I mean, how lonely.

1221
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 2: And how does it make her feel if she cannot

1222
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 2: get you where you want to go? No?

1223
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 3: Great, No, it's wow.

1224
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: Porn dick. Yeah, nobody wants porn dick.

1225
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 4: But again, it also it comes down to communication, because

1226
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 4: what's the best way to have great sex with the

1227
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 4: real human being in front of you is to communicate.

1228
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 4: You know, what's working for you, what's working for me,

1229
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 4: what can we do together. Let's try that that was ridiculous,

1230
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that didn't work.

1231
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 5: Let's try this other thing. And so you have to

1232
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 5: have these uncomfortable conversations.

1233
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 4: You have to talk to the lady like maybe this

1234
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 4: move that you thought was just the bomb is really

1235
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 4: not doing it for her. And if you're not used

1236
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 4: to having comfortable conversations, because as soon as it gets

1237
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 4: uncomfortable you pull out that phone, it's going to be

1238
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 4: really hard to do it when you're naked in the bedroom.

1239
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 4: So I do I think it comes down to communication.

1240
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 4: And I think that I mean, I think we've been

1241
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 4: running an unregulated experiment on young people's brains for the

1242
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,479
Speaker 4: past fifteen years and we're just now starting to come.

1243
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 5: To terms with how damaging it's been.

1244
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: That even that there are effects that you're describing is wild,

1245
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: Like there's so many studies I'll tell you won't get

1246
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:07,959
Speaker 2: The University of Auckland.

1247
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: Or something on board and get me, you know, do

1248
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: some studies at your joint.

1249
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 4: And then how about the studies that young people aren't

1250
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 4: even having the sex?

1251
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, less and less, less and less.

1252
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 3: It's so yeah, what are you doing kids?

1253
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1254
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there's a lot more to be gained, you

1255
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: know than just just having that thing happening in your body.

1256
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 2: They're getting setting off that reflexive response due to a

1257
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 2: certain amount of simulation.

1258
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: There's is so much more.

1259
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 5: But how crazy is that?

1260
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 4: I mean, when I was coming of age in the

1261
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,959
Speaker 4: eighties that we had the specter of AIDS over our heads,

1262
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 4: which was literally a death sentence and people were still shagging. Yeah,

1263
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 4: but the smartphone has done what each IV AIDS could not.

1264
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that is so sad.

1265
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming here today, and thank

1266
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: you for talking to me, and thank you so much

1267
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 2: for writing your book and speaking about what it.

1268
00:58:58,520 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 3: Is that you do.

1269
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: Because it's one thing to go work's work, and you know,

1270
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: women and women and everything's fine. But to be able

1271
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 2: to speak about the men, the needs that are being met,

1272
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: the job that is there to be done in this

1273
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 2: way is uncommon, and I'm grateful that you do it.

1274
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for giving me the chance, because, as

1275
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 4: you say, I think everyone wants to put a really

1276
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 4: simple answer on a bumper sticker, and it's not simple.

1277
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 4: You need to hash out these very complex and complicated

1278
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 4: ideas to get to some kind of truth.

1279
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 5: I don't know. Hopefully we've got a little something there. Yeah.

1280
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 2: Look, it's like if people are talking to me about

1281
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: the Middle East or climate or whatever, I'm like, and

1282
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 2: they gave you I should just do this. Like, if

1283
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 2: you think one sentence is enough to solve this complex problem,

1284
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 2: then you're not thinking about the problem enough, because it's

1285
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 2: a bigger problem.

1286
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: Anything that fits on a bumper sticker is not a solution,

1287
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: that's right.

1288
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 2: If you can shout it at a chant and at rhymes,

1289
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 2: it's probably not a solution.

1290
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's probably not nuanced.

1291
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 2: No, And that was Antonia Murphy. The new book is

1292
00:59:57,520 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: called Madam. I'll put a link in the show notes.

1293
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 2: That's also where you'll find a link to get tickets

1294
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 2: for the next show of Story Club, December the eighth,

1295
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 2: at Comedy Store in Sydney.

1296
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 3: The first show back was an absolute cracker.

1297
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 6: Jordan Raskoppola's finished her story standing on a chair, singing

1298
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 6: the Baywatch theme, holding a picture of David Hasselfoff meeting

1299
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 6: his homunculus.

1300
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 2: It was exquisite. You wouldn't want to miss it. The

1301
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 2: theme for the Christmas Spectacular is the most wonderful time

1302
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 2: of the year. That's right, the most wonderful time of

1303
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 2: the year. You don't want to miss it. It'll be brilliant.

1304
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being a part of the show.

1305
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 2: Thanks to all the people that help me make this episode.

1306
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 2: Andy maher on audio post production andymar dot com for

1307
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 2: all of your audio podcast post production needs. Monica Chapman,

1308
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: my executive function assistant bex A had made all the

1309
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 2: video posts, and Abby Bano produce this episode.

1310
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: See you Monday,