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Speaker 1: From the newsroom. A news still come to me today there.

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Buckalow, and I am one of the many

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Speaker 1: Aussies who would like to know if we're ever going

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Speaker 1: to get a fast train from Sydney to Melbourne. This

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Speaker 1: thing gets talked about all the time. The Federal government

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Speaker 1: says there is light at the end of the tunnel,

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Speaker 1: but others think the project will forever be stuck at

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Speaker 1: the station bit of a train. Pun for you there, today,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to find out the answer once and for all.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to speak to an expert who's going to

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Speaker 1: reveal how likely it is, when it could happen, and

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Speaker 1: how long it would actually take to travel between our

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Speaker 1: major cities if it does eventually get built. All the board,

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Speaker 1: the idea of building a high speed rail network in

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Speaker 1: Australia has been talked about for decades. Various plans and

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Speaker 1: pictures have been made over the years, but none have

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Speaker 1: been able to gather enough steam. That could change, though,

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Speaker 1: if Anthony Alberanezi gets his way.

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Speaker 2: My vision is the high speed rail that runs from

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Speaker 2: Brisbane to Melbourne, grabbing jobs and connecting communities up and

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Speaker 2: down the East coast of Australia, overcoming the tyranny of

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Speaker 2: distance that's held regions back.

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Speaker 1: That was back in twenty twenty two, and since then

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Speaker 1: the Labor Government has set up a High Speed Rail

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Speaker 1: Authority to try and make those dreams a reality. Here's

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Speaker 1: their plan. They want to build a high speed rail

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Speaker 1: network along the East Coast, which stops in Brisbane, Newcastle,

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Speaker 1: the Central Coast, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne. The trains would

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Speaker 1: be capable of traveling at more than three hundred kilometers

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Speaker 1: per hour. A trip from Brisbane to Sydney would take

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Speaker 1: about four hours. A trip from Sydney to Melbourne would

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Speaker 1: also take four hours. They want to start by building

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Speaker 1: the line from Newcastle to Sydney, which is in the

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Speaker 1: planning stages right now. The new project's first line would

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Speaker 1: link Newcastle and Sydney in an hour and the Central

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Speaker 1: Coast in just thirty minutes. It's estimated that stretch alone

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Speaker 1: could take more than ten years to build and could

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Speaker 1: cost up to thirty billion dollars. After that, in theory,

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Speaker 1: they'd build the rest of the high speed rail line,

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Speaker 1: with the aim of having the whole thing completed by

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Speaker 1: drum roll please the year twenty sixty. So will it

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Speaker 1: actually happen for he to discuss that is Professor Christopher

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Speaker 1: Pettick from the University of New South Wales. What are

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Speaker 1: the arguments for high speed rail in Australia.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think there's quite a few arguments for If

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Speaker 3: we look at CO two emissions. Just for example, every

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Speaker 3: passenger on a flight from say Sydney to Melbourne, those

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Speaker 3: kilograms of CO two are up to one hundred to

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Speaker 3: one hundred and eighty per person. If you're on a train,

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Speaker 3: you're looking at about sixteen to eighteen kilograms, so that's

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Speaker 3: a reduction of CO two ten times. Also, the high

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Speaker 3: speed rail would be run be electrified system, so you're

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Speaker 3: not even using any fuel that planes are dependent on

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Speaker 3: and you're not going to see a plane with a

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Speaker 3: big EV battery anytime soon.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: So, apart from it more environmentally friendly, why else is

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Speaker 1: it a good idea?

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Speaker 3: Australia's population is growing as we know, there's growing pains

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Speaker 3: in our cities. We've got Sydney, we've got Melbourne, the

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Speaker 3: two largest cities accommodating almost half Australia's population. The Australian

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Speaker 3: Bureau Statistics are forecasting Australias to grow nine million people

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Speaker 3: by twenty fifty. Where are all those people going to go?

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Speaker 3: Do we really want all of those people to be

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Speaker 3: moving to the capital cities, to Melbourne, to Sydney, to Brisbane.

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Speaker 3: So there's a huge opportunity by putting in a high

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Speaker 3: speed rail as the backbone of a national plan for

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Speaker 3: Australia to accommodate future growth. So this would help solve

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Speaker 3: some of our immigration challenges and also importantly housing affordability

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Speaker 3: a lot cheaper to build houses and for people to

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Speaker 3: go live around some of these regional stations that are

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Speaker 3: being proposed in Newcastle where property prices are about half

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Speaker 3: the price of buying a house in Sydney. Then you

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Speaker 3: go out to Grafton or Coffs Harbor, down to Victoria

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Speaker 3: and Shepperdon when the average property price is around five

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Speaker 3: hundred thousand for a house. So there's real benefits for

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Speaker 3: Australia planning our long term growth, so we can have

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Speaker 3: a lot of people come into the country and not

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Speaker 3: put a lot of pressure on our infrastructure in our

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Speaker 3: capital cities.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the arguments against high speed rail

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Speaker 1: in Australia. Firstly, let's talk about the cost. So if

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Speaker 1: it's going to cost maybe thirty billion dollars just to

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Speaker 1: do in the Newcastle or Sydney stretch, I mean the

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Speaker 1: whole thing from Brisbane to Melbourne must be an astronomical cost.

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Speaker 3: So there's been many studies of this going back forty

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Speaker 3: years around high speed rail, and I guess some of

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Speaker 3: the most recent studies are probably about a decade old.

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Speaker 3: We've got new studies a business case being released by

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Speaker 3: the High Speed Rail Authority later this year. But the

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Speaker 3: total cost back in about twenty twelve was about one

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Speaker 3: hundred and fifteen billion. That's probably up now in being

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five. It is a big project. It's

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Speaker 3: going to cost a lot, but it's probably not going

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Speaker 3: to cost any more than about five or six submarines

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Speaker 3: out of the Orchest program. And you think about fifteen

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Speaker 3: hundred kilometers of high speed rail network connecting seventy percent

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Speaker 3: of Australia's population for the price of five or six submarines,

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Speaker 3: I still think it's a fantastic piece of infrastructure. Plus

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Speaker 3: there's also ways of helping to fund that using mechanisms.

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Speaker 3: We've got tax mechanisms like value.

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Speaker 1: Capture, explain value capture.

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Speaker 3: So value capture is not new, it's what was used

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Speaker 3: to fund the Sydney Harbor Bridge. Those who benefit from

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Speaker 3: that new piece of infrastructure in our cities can pay

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Speaker 3: towards it, and there's various ways that they could do that.

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Speaker 3: But simply put you put in a new transformational piece

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Speaker 3: of infrastructure like a light rail, you put it in

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Speaker 3: a new metro, the property prices around those train stations

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Speaker 3: go up because you've provided greater accessibility to jobs and

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Speaker 3: services for those living near those new stations. So if

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Speaker 3: you put that in the context of high speed rail,

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Speaker 3: you've just basically put Hamburg as a satellite city. You've

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Speaker 3: put Newcastle as a satellite city or a suburb even

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Speaker 3: to Sydney, and so the land value around those stations

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Speaker 3: goes up a lot. Now, what government can do is

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Speaker 3: look at various policies and mechanisms. They could be purchasing

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Speaker 3: some of the land around those stations at a very

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Speaker 3: affordable price right now. They could be then selling that

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Speaker 3: still at market price, providing affordable housing, and that value

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Speaker 3: that's being created is then captured. And we've done a

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Speaker 3: study at the City Futures Research Center UNSW a few

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Speaker 3: years ago, under various scenarios, if we were to have

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Speaker 3: like an extra one point twenty five million people live

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Speaker 3: up and down that corridor, you could realize one hundred

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Speaker 3: and forty billion dollars of additional value that could be

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Speaker 3: captured through such a policy that could then go towards

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Speaker 3: funding a huge chunk of this high speed rail infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: So if it did happen, let's talk about you know,

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Speaker 1: if we had this up and running by twenty sixty,

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Speaker 1: do you think it would be cheaper for people to

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Speaker 1: travel by train than plane overall?

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Speaker 3: Yes, if you factor in all the costs and friction

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Speaker 3: points when we travel at the moment. So if you're

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Speaker 3: going from say Sydney to Melbourne, which is the fifth

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Speaker 3: busiest domestic route in the world, you've got a factor

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Speaker 3: in an uber or a taxi to get to the airport.

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Speaker 1: Right yeah, and that taxi out of Melbourne airport that

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Speaker 1: always costs you a lot of money too. It's not

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Speaker 1: just a one hundred dollar jet staff light. You're now

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Speaker 1: paying one hundred and sixty one hundred and seventy just

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Speaker 1: to get into Melbourne and then into the city exactly.

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Speaker 3: And there's no train options in Melbourne. And really you know,

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Speaker 3: the way they implement high speed rail, like they do

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Speaker 3: around the world, they put it near existing train infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: So if you were, for example, to and there's no

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Speaker 3: decision yet where these stations would go, but if you've

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Speaker 3: for example, put it in Paramattera and Central Sydney, you

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Speaker 3: could then have access via the Metro and other train

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Speaker 3: infrastructure and public transporting structure to Western Sydney. That would

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Speaker 3: be a lot, a lot cheaper than going to the airport.

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Speaker 1: Also, on a train, I feel like you probably have

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Speaker 1: a bigger luggage allowance on a train as well.

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Speaker 3: Usually overseas you don't pay for luggage allowance. There you go,

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Speaker 3: the seats are bigger, you get more space if you

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Speaker 3: want to pull out your laptop or sit back and relax.

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of the international high speed rail

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Speaker 3: networks I've been on in China, in Japan, in Korea,

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Speaker 3: across Europe and the UK, it's almost like a business

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Speaker 3: class seat. You know, you get a lot more space.

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Speaker 3: Luggage is not an issue. You're not paying extra for

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Speaker 3: you know, check in and so yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 3: the barriers are reduced and it becomes a lot more

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Speaker 3: of a comfortable, seamless journey. You're not lining up to

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Speaker 3: go through security, You're not queuing exactly, You're not queuing

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Speaker 3: ten minutes to get onto the plane or onto the

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Speaker 3: train and ten minutes to come off. It's a lot

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Speaker 3: more pleasant experience.

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Speaker 1: It sounds pretty good, right, But will this high speed

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Speaker 1: rail actually get built? Going to find that out in

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Speaker 1: just a moment. Welcome back, Professor Chris. You sound like

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Speaker 1: you are on board with the plan to build a

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Speaker 1: high speed rail network in Australia, so you think this

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Speaker 1: is definitely a viable option.

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Speaker 3: I think it's absolutely a viable option. I mean I

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Speaker 3: would see it as the backbone of a national settlement

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Speaker 3: strategy for the country to help alleviate some of those

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Speaker 3: pressure points as we mentioned before around You know, we've

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Speaker 3: got a lot of people moving into Australia. We are

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Speaker 3: a big country and we should be able to accommodate that,

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Speaker 3: but we do need the right infrastructure and I think

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Speaker 3: it's the project of choice for the country.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it'll actually happen? I mean, we've got

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Speaker 1: the plan to start on this line from Newcastle to Sydney.

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Speaker 1: The rest of it could take up to twenty sixty

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Speaker 1: to complete. If it gets approved, do you think it's

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Speaker 1: actually going to happen? What's the likelihood?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think there's more momentum than we've had previously,

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Speaker 3: and the strangest population is growing. We do have these

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Speaker 3: issues of where's everyone going to live. I think with

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Speaker 3: the current government, they're very serious about this. They've invested

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Speaker 3: five hundred million on serious studies. They've done the costings

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Speaker 3: as you mentioned out to doing the Newcastle Link, and

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Speaker 3: if they build that link over the next ten years,

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Speaker 3: I think we'll see a network evolve out of that.

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Speaker 1: If you had to look into your little crystal ball

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Speaker 1: right now and tell me what percentage likelihood do you

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Speaker 1: think it is that by twenty sixty we will have

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Speaker 1: a high speed rail network from Brisbane all the way

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Speaker 1: down to Melbourne or percentage.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's probably two percentage points on that, Bucky. First

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Speaker 3: of all, I would say it's a seventy percent chance

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Speaker 3: that it's going to be built. I say seventy because

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Speaker 3: it is very much a political hot potato and has

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Speaker 3: been for many decades. There's a lot of support from

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Speaker 3: the current government, which is fantastic. I think if we

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Speaker 3: can get that first Newcastle leg built, I think we

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Speaker 3: will have broken the back of it and will see

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Speaker 3: how successful it is. Mind you, that's actually the hardest

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Speaker 3: leg to build, so we haven't started with an easy leg,

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Speaker 3: say to canber from Sydney. We've gone Geologically speaking, it

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Speaker 3: is really tough. There's a lot of tunneling, you know,

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Speaker 3: going onto the Hawksbury River. So if we can get

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Speaker 3: that leg built, I think that the rest will come.

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Speaker 3: We'll see the benefits and connecting Newcastle on Central Coast.

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Speaker 3: I think it's seventy percent. I'd like to say it's higher,

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Speaker 3: but you know how we operate on three year political cycles.

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Speaker 3: A project like this is going to go over at

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Speaker 3: least that first leg at least three political cycles. The

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Speaker 3: other element of building out to twenty sixty. Are we

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Speaker 3: going to get it built by twenty sixty? Look, we can. Again,

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Speaker 3: it will come down to I guess how efficient we

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Speaker 3: are and building the infrastructure. But look in China, they

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Speaker 3: started building high speed rail in the nineteen nineties and

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Speaker 3: here we are probably thirty years later. They've built over

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Speaker 3: forty thousand kilometers. Wow, and they've got another twenty kilometers

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Speaker 3: twenty thousand they're building in the next five years. So

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Speaker 3: China can build twenty thousand kilometers in five years, surely

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Speaker 3: we can build fifteen hundred eighteen hundred kilometers over thirty

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Speaker 3: forty years.

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Speaker 1: Professor Chris from the University of New South Wales thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for chatting to news dot com Dot.

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Speaker 3: You Thanks Bucky.

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Speaker 1: So what do you reckon if they were roughly the

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Speaker 1: same cost? Would you rather take a four hour train

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Speaker 1: from Melbourne to Sydney or would you still go for

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Speaker 1: the one hour twenty five minute flight. I think personally

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Speaker 1: I would be very willing to give the train a go.

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Speaker 1: If I got a bigger ce, could take more luggage

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Speaker 1: and didn't have to fat around with airport's security, I mean,

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Speaker 1: sign me up. I am on board with this thing

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Speaker 1: as well. Twenty sixty is a long way away though,

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Speaker 1: not even sure I'll be alive fingers crossed. Am all right?

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. I will chat to

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Speaker 1: you next week when I'm going to be joined by

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Speaker 1: one of the world's most famous drag queens. Oh yes

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Speaker 1: see you later. Follow us Subscribe to from the newsroom

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.