1 00:00:00,900 --> 00:00:06,620 Speaker 1: The United States now has on-orbit space control weapons capable 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:11,260 Speaker 1: of defending the joint force against hostile adversary action. 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,020 Speaker 2: And with that, a whole new galactic battleground just opened up. 4 00:00:15,380 --> 00:00:20,090 Speaker 1: It is critically important that we maintain our dominance not 5 00:00:20,140 --> 00:00:21,270 Speaker 1: only in the air but in space. 6 00:00:21,290 --> 00:00:24,250 Speaker 2: The United States has declared it has weapons in space 7 00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:26,010 Speaker 2: and it's ready to use them. 8 00:00:26,290 --> 00:00:28,450 Speaker 1: We've had to take steps to make sure that that 9 00:00:28,860 --> 00:00:31,250 Speaker 1: when we're threatened, we can take care of that. 10 00:00:31,750 --> 00:00:34,130 Speaker 2: So we're entering a new era where the opening moves 11 00:00:34,190 --> 00:00:37,170 Speaker 2: of a war could happen hundreds of kilometres above us. 12 00:00:41,370 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. Today, senior 13 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 2: analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, Dr Malcolm Davis, 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,059 Speaker 2: on the space weapons now at the ready and the 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:01:06,670 Speaker 2: likelihood of an orbital offensive. It's Monday, September 21. Malcolm, 16 00:01:06,730 --> 00:01:09,210 Speaker 2: it's long been suspected, but we now have seen the 17 00:01:09,310 --> 00:01:11,740 Speaker 2: US come out and admit it, that it has weapons 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: in space. What's the significance of that and why now? 19 00:01:15,260 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 3: Essentially, what the US has done is respond to developments 20 00:01:18,660 --> 00:01:21,870 Speaker 3: by China and Russia, who have been developing weapons in 21 00:01:21,910 --> 00:01:23,050 Speaker 3: space for many decades. 22 00:01:23,350 --> 00:01:27,110 Speaker 1: We continue to ensure we remain ready to meet the 23 00:01:27,150 --> 00:01:31,350 Speaker 1: challenges of evolving threats wherever they exist. 24 00:01:31,650 --> 00:01:36,890 Speaker 3: China first tested an anti-satellite missile in 2007. Russians did 25 00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:41,170 Speaker 3: the same thing in 2021. Both countries have been doing 26 00:01:41,190 --> 00:01:46,890 Speaker 3: what's known as co-orbital operations, essentially, which demonstrate the capabilities 27 00:01:46,930 --> 00:01:50,750 Speaker 3: and the technology for co-orbital anti-satellite weapons. So the U.S. 28 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,740 Speaker 3: has been observing this And I think they've now recognized 29 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,580 Speaker 3: that they can no longer passively look on as the 30 00:01:56,620 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: Chinese and the Russians develop counter-space weapons. 31 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: Space Force launch sites have already hosted 116 orbital launches 32 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,060 Speaker 1: this year. I think it was actually 117 after yesterday, 33 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: and it'll be 118 tomorrow. Nearly 60% of all launches 34 00:02:12,090 --> 00:02:15,650 Speaker 1: on the planet. This is allowing us to maintain and 35 00:02:15,669 --> 00:02:18,630 Speaker 1: build our commercial and military space advantages. 36 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,559 Speaker 3: And this is really about deterrence. It's about strengthening deterrence 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 3: in space to send the message to China and Russia 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,590 Speaker 3: not to use these counter space weapons. 39 00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:30,930 Speaker 2: And what kind of weapons do you think we're talking 40 00:02:30,970 --> 00:02:31,470 Speaker 2: about here? 41 00:02:31,950 --> 00:02:34,930 Speaker 3: Probably talking about what's known as soft kill weapons. So 42 00:02:35,090 --> 00:02:38,210 Speaker 3: the missiles that the Chinese and the Russians tested were 43 00:02:38,270 --> 00:02:41,370 Speaker 3: hard kill. They were physically destroyed a satellite, created a 44 00:02:41,410 --> 00:02:44,940 Speaker 3: huge cloud of space debris each time. I think the 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: Americans don't want to do that. What they want to 46 00:02:47,220 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: do is disable rather than physically destroy. So we're talking 47 00:02:50,940 --> 00:02:56,809 Speaker 3: about jamming capabilities. We're talking about electronic warfare, potentially directed 48 00:02:56,870 --> 00:03:00,650 Speaker 3: energy weapons, such as high energy laser or high power 49 00:03:00,690 --> 00:03:05,690 Speaker 3: microwave systems. Also the ability to do cyber attacks on 50 00:03:05,730 --> 00:03:08,750 Speaker 3: satellites could be something that could be done from the ground. 51 00:03:08,770 --> 00:03:11,389 Speaker 3: But in terms of these orbital space weapons, I think 52 00:03:11,430 --> 00:03:14,950 Speaker 3: we are talking electronic warfare and directed energy weapons. 53 00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:18,869 Speaker 2: And so strategically, how would these weapons be used? Because 54 00:03:18,910 --> 00:03:20,929 Speaker 2: it's not like Star Wars or Star Trek up there. 55 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:24,910 Speaker 2: We're not talking battles in space. It's more about blinding 56 00:03:24,950 --> 00:03:27,970 Speaker 2: enemy satellites to achieve the advantage for battles here on Earth. 57 00:03:28,470 --> 00:03:31,790 Speaker 3: It's a concept called orbital warfare. And essentially what the 58 00:03:31,850 --> 00:03:35,780 Speaker 3: system is, is that the US has counter space capabilities 59 00:03:36,340 --> 00:03:38,980 Speaker 3: that are designed to prevent the Chinese or the Russians 60 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:42,860 Speaker 3: launching attacks on our critical satellite technologies. We depend on 61 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:46,660 Speaker 3: satellites for everything we do, whether it's war fighting or 62 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,300 Speaker 3: economies or societies. And it's not like Star Wars. It's 63 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:53,740 Speaker 3: not like Star Trek where you basically have necessarily fighters 64 00:03:53,780 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: shooting around dogfighting in space. It's a much more slow 65 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,670 Speaker 3: and deliberate process to be able to prevent an adversary 66 00:04:02,070 --> 00:04:06,890 Speaker 3: from attacking our satellites or to utilize our counter space 67 00:04:06,930 --> 00:04:10,430 Speaker 3: capabilities to deny the adversary the use of their satellites 68 00:04:11,570 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 3: in a war situation. So that's the sort of thing 69 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:14,420 Speaker 3: we are talking about. 70 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: What are the laws governing the weaponization of space? 71 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: 1967 Outer Space Treaty Article 4 says that the deployment 72 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: of nuclear weapons in space is banned, okay? It says 73 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:31,310 Speaker 3: nothing about the deployment of non-nuclear weapons. So there's nothing 74 00:04:31,670 --> 00:04:36,010 Speaker 3: legally that prevents the US, China, or Russia from deploying 75 00:04:36,029 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 3: non-nuclear weapons in space. But you cannot deploy nuclear weapons 76 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,220 Speaker 3: in space, and the Russians are moving towards that goal. 77 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,410 Speaker 2: A lot of people may not realise this, but there's 78 00:04:45,470 --> 00:04:49,010 Speaker 2: actually been quite a long history of militarisation in space. 79 00:04:49,529 --> 00:04:51,050 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about that? 80 00:04:51,589 --> 00:04:54,990 Speaker 3: Well, certainly space has been militarised since the beginning of 81 00:04:55,029 --> 00:04:57,830 Speaker 3: the space age, really, certainly back to the early 1960s. 82 00:05:01,339 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 4: In the middle of the 20th century, for the first 83 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 4: time in history, man reached beyond his planet and began 84 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:10,500 Speaker 4: to probe the mysteries of space. 85 00:05:12,010 --> 00:05:15,700 Speaker 3: Satellites have been used to support military forces on Earth. 86 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:18,500 Speaker 3: Going all the way back to the Vietnam War, for example, 87 00:05:18,580 --> 00:05:21,580 Speaker 3: and during the Cold War, we used satellites for missile 88 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: early warning. 89 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,820 Speaker 4: Signals from satellite instruments are received as a kind of 90 00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 4: electronic shorthand, or code. The various signals are identified by 91 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 4: changes in their length, in the time intervals between them, 92 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 4: and in their frequency. 93 00:05:39,830 --> 00:05:42,940 Speaker 3: What we're talking about now is weaponization, which is different 94 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 3: from militarization in the sense that we are talking weapons 95 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 3: in space. Now, space weapons, anti-satellite weapons, counter-space capabilities have 96 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 3: really been in development since the days of the Cold War. 97 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: Both the Soviet Union and the United States had anti-satellite weapons, 98 00:05:59,540 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: but they refrained from deploying them. Since the end of 99 00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:07,529 Speaker 3: the Cold War, you've seen a different dynamic emerge whereby 100 00:06:07,589 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 3: China and Russia have both been moving much more aggressively. 101 00:06:12,020 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 5: CBS News, the United States has been tracking Russia's development 102 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 5: of a nuclear-capable anti-satellite weapon in space. The White House 103 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,690 Speaker 5: has not confirmed if the weapon would have nuclear capabilities, 104 00:06:21,770 --> 00:06:24,910 Speaker 5: but a spokesman did say it would not be used 105 00:06:24,950 --> 00:06:27,390 Speaker 5: against humans nor cause physical destruction on Earth. 106 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 3: And now you have a situation where the US is 107 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:36,900 Speaker 3: recognising that The space domain is a warfighting domain. It's 108 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,539 Speaker 3: no longer a peaceful global commons. And so therefore, you know, 109 00:06:41,580 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 3: the US has to respond to that challenge. And that's 110 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: what they've done this week with this announcement about deploying 111 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 3: space weapons. 112 00:06:48,230 --> 00:06:50,890 Speaker 2: And how is America's interest in space more broadly ramped 113 00:06:50,990 --> 00:06:52,070 Speaker 2: up under Donald Trump? 114 00:06:53,110 --> 00:06:55,430 Speaker 3: I think it's actually one of the very few things 115 00:06:55,490 --> 00:06:58,770 Speaker 3: that Trump has done well, in the sense that you 116 00:06:58,810 --> 00:07:01,809 Speaker 3: have seen Trump make clear a strong interest in going 117 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: back to the moon and not just going to essentially visit, 118 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,740 Speaker 3: but to stay and establish a lunar base. 119 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 4: Before the end of my term, American astronauts will return 120 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,020 Speaker 4: to the lunar surface, and we're looking forward to that. 121 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: We'll do it, and we're then going to the next step. 122 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 4: And when we do, they'll plant this very important flag 123 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,970 Speaker 4: to mark the site of the first permanent American settlement 124 00:07:25,050 --> 00:07:25,350 Speaker 4: on the moon. 125 00:07:25,370 --> 00:07:27,390 Speaker 2: They're going to have a settlement. They're building a settlement 126 00:07:27,470 --> 00:07:28,070 Speaker 2: up in the moon. 127 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 3: You've seen the Trump administration support the development of nuclear-powered 128 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,700 Speaker 3: and propelled spacecraft, which will be essential if humanity wants 129 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: to explore beyond the moon and go to Mars or 130 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:44,700 Speaker 3: even beyond. And you've seen, you know, the Trump administration 131 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,660 Speaker 3: really support NASA, really support commercial space, be very supportive 132 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: of the US Space Force. So out of all the 133 00:07:52,220 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: areas of policy where Trump tends to make a mess 134 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: of things, space is one of the areas where he doesn't. 135 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:14,370 Speaker 2: Still to come. Australia's plans for space warfare. Malcolm, where 136 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,190 Speaker 2: does Australia fit into all of this? Is space warfare 137 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:18,550 Speaker 2: part of our defence force? 138 00:08:19,330 --> 00:08:21,489 Speaker 3: Yes, in the sense that if you look at the 139 00:08:21,710 --> 00:08:26,050 Speaker 3: National Defence Strategy, which was released earlier this year, and 140 00:08:26,090 --> 00:08:29,190 Speaker 3: the early iterations of that, they both make very clear 141 00:08:29,250 --> 00:08:33,260 Speaker 3: that space control, which is what we're talking about, is 142 00:08:33,380 --> 00:08:37,939 Speaker 3: an important task for the ADF. We do what's known 143 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,140 Speaker 3: as space domain awareness, where we have ground-based facilities, including 144 00:08:42,179 --> 00:08:45,059 Speaker 3: out at Exmouth in Western Australia, that look up into 145 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 3: space and monitor what's happening in space. That gives us 146 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,220 Speaker 3: some sort of early warning about hostile activities in space. 147 00:08:51,260 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 3: But at the moment, we have no means to defend 148 00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:58,020 Speaker 3: satellites in orbit. So that's the next task for the 149 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 3: ADF in space, which is to develop space control capabilities 150 00:09:02,050 --> 00:09:05,780 Speaker 3: alongside the Americans, but also with other regional partners, such 151 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,220 Speaker 3: as the Japanese in particular, and develop the means whereby 152 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,780 Speaker 3: we can work together to strengthen deterrence in space, to 153 00:09:13,820 --> 00:09:16,490 Speaker 3: strengthen resilience in space. And part of that will be 154 00:09:16,550 --> 00:09:19,610 Speaker 3: space control, including soft-kill capabilities. 155 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:22,770 Speaker 2: You mentioned that this move from America comes after China 156 00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:26,929 Speaker 2: and Russia's own developments in space. What's been their response 157 00:09:26,970 --> 00:09:28,530 Speaker 2: to this announcement from the U.S. 158 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 3: Well, the Chinese and the Russians quite understandably are exploiting 159 00:09:32,580 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 3: this to try and claim that the Americans here are 160 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,859 Speaker 3: being the aggressor, that they are the ones that are 161 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,530 Speaker 3: causing a space arms race. And so therefore, America should 162 00:09:41,610 --> 00:09:44,230 Speaker 3: step back. And the Chinese are claiming that they only 163 00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:46,550 Speaker 3: see the space in peaceful terms. 164 00:09:48,330 --> 00:09:49,270 Speaker 2: We urge the U.S. 165 00:09:49,309 --> 00:09:52,470 Speaker 5: To stop expanding its military preparations in outer space and 166 00:09:52,510 --> 00:09:55,700 Speaker 5: take concrete actions to safeguard global strategic stability. 167 00:09:56,230 --> 00:09:58,739 Speaker 3: In actual fact, all the evidence suggests the Chinese and 168 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 3: the Russians have been very active in developing space weapons 169 00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 3: over the last decades, and they've been the ones that 170 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,540 Speaker 3: have tested space weapons. So I think that the Chinese 171 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: and the Russians have seen this as a political opportunity 172 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: to push a particular line. An awful lot of people 173 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 3: will believe that line and sense that the Americans are 174 00:10:16,660 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 3: the ones at fault here. But I really have to 175 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,990 Speaker 3: emphasize the Americans are only responding to a clear threat 176 00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:25,050 Speaker 3: and they're responding in a way that's designed to strengthen 177 00:10:25,070 --> 00:10:27,590 Speaker 3: deterrence rather than necessarily become aggressive. 178 00:10:27,890 --> 00:10:30,690 Speaker 2: So obviously there's a risk that this could escalate tensions 179 00:10:30,730 --> 00:10:33,309 Speaker 2: between the three countries and lead to military action in space. 180 00:10:33,350 --> 00:10:34,630 Speaker 2: Is that a real possibility? 181 00:10:35,070 --> 00:10:39,270 Speaker 3: Look, I don't think this announcement will necessarily cause that scenario. 182 00:10:39,309 --> 00:10:42,940 Speaker 3: But what certainly I think the Americans are anticipating is 183 00:10:42,980 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 3: that in the next war, at the outset of that war, 184 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 3: or even prior to that war, You will see what's 185 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,420 Speaker 3: known as gray zone operations in space where adversaries utilize 186 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:56,610 Speaker 3: counter space capabilities to try and attack our critical space systems. 187 00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:00,370 Speaker 3: So the Americans want to be ready for that. And 188 00:11:00,410 --> 00:11:02,650 Speaker 3: this is part of the process. So I don't think 189 00:11:03,030 --> 00:11:06,219 Speaker 3: this announcement will lead to escalation per se. I think 190 00:11:06,860 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 3: what the risk is, is that it's highlighting the risk 191 00:11:10,020 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 3: that space war will happen in the next war. 192 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 2: You mentioned America will be looking to use weapons that 193 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: disable rather than destroy satellites because of the risk of 194 00:11:18,140 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: space debris. What's the risk there? What are the flow 195 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:22,819 Speaker 2: and effects if debris is set loose? 196 00:11:23,340 --> 00:11:26,540 Speaker 3: Well, certainly, if you physically destroy a satellite, you create 197 00:11:26,580 --> 00:11:30,110 Speaker 3: a massive cloud of space debris. In 2021, the Russians 198 00:11:30,179 --> 00:11:33,709 Speaker 3: tested a direct anti-satellite weapon on one of their satellites 199 00:11:33,770 --> 00:11:36,809 Speaker 3: and destroyed it, creating a huge cloud of space debris 200 00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:40,310 Speaker 3: that is still up there today, still threatening satellites. And 201 00:11:40,330 --> 00:11:42,930 Speaker 3: at the time, the debris was threatened not only the 202 00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:46,429 Speaker 3: International Space Station, but also the Chinese space station as well. 203 00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:49,630 Speaker 3: So both space stations had to alter their orbit to 204 00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:53,929 Speaker 3: avoid space debris created by that test. If the Chinese 205 00:11:53,970 --> 00:11:57,390 Speaker 3: and the Russians were to make extensive use of these 206 00:11:57,490 --> 00:12:01,300 Speaker 3: kinetic kill ASATs, then you would have massive amounts of 207 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 3: debris in space to the point whereby you couldn't even 208 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,300 Speaker 3: access space. You couldn't deploy stuff into space. That's what's 209 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:12,090 Speaker 3: known as a Kessler syndrome. and essentially it takes decades 210 00:12:12,130 --> 00:12:15,390 Speaker 3: to clear space of all that debris before we can 211 00:12:15,410 --> 00:12:17,860 Speaker 3: start using space again. So this is why I think 212 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:22,580 Speaker 3: that the Americans certainly, ourselves and other Western countries, but 213 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,339 Speaker 3: also I would have to say the Chinese, are probably 214 00:12:25,380 --> 00:12:28,180 Speaker 3: going down the path of this soft kill rather than 215 00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:33,429 Speaker 3: necessarily the hard kill. The Russians, however, are still probably 216 00:12:33,470 --> 00:12:36,870 Speaker 3: persisting with the hard kill, and more worryingly, the Russians 217 00:12:36,929 --> 00:12:40,830 Speaker 3: are developing a nuclear weapons-based anti-satellite capability that would be, 218 00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:44,429 Speaker 3: if it's deployed, would be a direct violation of the 219 00:12:44,429 --> 00:12:46,380 Speaker 3: 1967 Outer Space Treaty. 220 00:12:46,929 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: I mean, the Kessler Cascade, if it was to come 221 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,020 Speaker 2: into effect, would serve no one, wouldn't it? Yeah, absolutely. 222 00:12:53,059 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 3: And I think this is why, you know, one of 223 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,359 Speaker 3: the things we probably can work towards in terms of 224 00:12:57,420 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 3: space law and space arms control is a prohibition on 225 00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 3: kinetic kill ASATs, a prohibition on destructive ASATs that that 226 00:13:07,290 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: create space debris. And if we could get China on 227 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: side on this, they could then pressure Russia both to 228 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: step back from that and also the nuclear weapons-based ASAT 229 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: program the Russians are developing, because it's certainly not in 230 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,820 Speaker 3: China's interest to see that particular capability deployed either. The 231 00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:30,710 Speaker 3: best we can do is constrain space weaponization to make 232 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,630 Speaker 3: sure that countries don't use kinetic kill ASATs and certainly 233 00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 3: try and put pressure on on the Russians not to 234 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 3: deploy their nuclear weapons based ASAP, which would be a 235 00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:43,140 Speaker 3: direct violation of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty. 236 00:13:45,250 --> 00:13:48,730 Speaker 2: Malcolm, it's a fascinating and terrifying area, but thanks for 237 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:50,550 Speaker 2: telling us about it. My pleasure. 238 00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:51,130 Speaker 3: I was happy to help. 239 00:14:06,030 --> 00:14:08,810 Speaker 2: Also in the news, three women have been killed in 240 00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:12,309 Speaker 2: separate domestic violence-related incidents in New South Wales, in a 241 00:14:12,350 --> 00:14:15,610 Speaker 2: spate of just 24 hours. A 90-year-old woman was stabbed 242 00:14:15,630 --> 00:14:18,849 Speaker 2: to death in Bondi Beach, where a 47-year-old man, known 243 00:14:18,890 --> 00:14:21,370 Speaker 2: to the woman, was arrested and charged with her murder. 244 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:25,130 Speaker 2: A 23-year-old woman was also fatally stabbed in Wagga Wagga, 245 00:14:25,470 --> 00:14:27,750 Speaker 2: while a 70-year-old woman was found dead at a home 246 00:14:27,790 --> 00:14:32,790 Speaker 2: in the state's Northern Tablelands region. And Ed Sheeran has 247 00:14:32,890 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: called the situation in Gaza catastrophic and unjustifiable. As he 248 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,700 Speaker 2: returned to the stage for the first time since the 249 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: McLemore controversy, Sheeran, who was heavily criticised for failing to 250 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,820 Speaker 2: back his opening act's Free Palestine comments, says he had 251 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: to take and make difficult decisions and has made mistakes 252 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,239 Speaker 2: apologising at a concert in Philadelphia. I'm Daniel James. Thanks 253 00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:55,540 Speaker 2: for listening to 7am. We'll be back tomorrow. 254 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:00,590 Speaker 3: Thank you.