WEBVTT - Catching paedophiles: Kristi McVee Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.119 Detective sy aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.160 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.120 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.279 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.640 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.720 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.479 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.519 Welcome to another episode of I Catchkillers. If you've been 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.640 an avid listener to I Catchkillers, I'm sure you've been 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.960 as confronted as much as I have. Regarding the amount 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.000 of people who have been sexually abused as children, the 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.760 impact pikable offense has on their lives is far reaching. 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.319 It's an offense that has to stop. In today's episode 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:08.280 of I Catch Killers, we're going to do something a 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.840 little different. We're going to discuss ways in which this 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.200 crime can be prevented and what to do if you 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.640 become aware or concerned the child is being sexually abused. 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.680 We're speaking to retired Western Australian detective Christy McVeigh, who 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.319 specialized in child abuse investigation. Christy is also the author 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.679 of a very informative book called Operation Kids Safe. A 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.520 couple of years ago we had Christy on the podcast 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.160 to discuss a police career and I couldn't think of 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.040 a better person to get back on to discuss child 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.840 predative behavior, how to protect and empowered children so they 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.440 don't become victims. This is going to be a very 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:48.600 important episode. Christy mcvee, welcome back to I Catch Killers. 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.200 Thank you well, it's. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.880 Good to finally see you in person. We've spent so 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.600 much time talking over the phone. We even did a 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.000 podcast over zoom. I think that might have been back 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.919 in the bad old days of no travel. Everyone stuck. 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.840 It was two plus years ago. 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.640 Yeah, yeah, you're doing some other stuff. This is I 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:10.720 just want people to get a sense of why I've 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.120 got you on, because you are a very sought after 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.880 person in regards to this subject matter that you talk about. 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.760 Yeah, so I'm over here for that. I came over 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.320 specifically for south By Southwest, but whilst I was here, 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.200 I managed to obviously catch up with you, catching up 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.080 with the Mum Club podcast, got some school presentations and 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.600 early childhood presentations and just catching up with survivors and 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:34.920 victims and other people. 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.800 Okay, Well, the work that you're doing is making a difference, 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.639 So congratulations, but I'm glad in discussions we had before 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.320 we started recording, you're also going to walk the Sydney 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:46.960 Harbor Bridge. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.280 Yes, that's my celebratory for me for all of the 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.080 work that I've done this week and just to end 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:54.680 off the week. 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:56.760 Yeah, well, you've got to find some light because it's 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.840 such a heavy subject that you talk about and your expertise, 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.919 and so I understand that why you need to recharge, 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.320 and I can't think of a better way than climbing 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:07.200 the Harbor Bridge. 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:07.960 Yeah. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.280 Well, some people would think that that was a bit excessive, 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:15.160 but I'm excited because it's one of those bucket list 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:15.800 things to do. 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.360 Oh. I hope you're looking forward to it, and I 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.040 hope you get a good day. Whether I want to 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.640 ask upfront, why are you and people that have listened 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.640 to the podcast heard us talk about child sexual abuse, 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.519 and they would have heard your episode and your background. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.640 But I just want to ask the question up front, 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.600 why are you so passionate about this subject. 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.560 It's because I can't sleep if I don't do this work. 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.320 It's my soul's mission. After hearing all of the children 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.720 that I heard, all of the stories that I was told, 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.600 all the victim survivors that contact me even today, someone 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.000 needs to shine a light on what these people do 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:59.720 and help parents understand how easy it is for child 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.960 sext defenders and predators to worm their way into their homes, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.840 into their lives, and attack or abuse their children. And 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.480 if someone like myself who has the strength to talk 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.160 about it and share it, it brings forward people who 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.799 can talk about it and share it, and it creates 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:18.039 a wave of ripple effect. 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:21.120 Well, you come across as a driven person, and I 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.560 can't think of a better thing to channel channel your 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.440 energy into. But you've said, shine the light on the 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:33.080 spotlight on this insidious offense and these predators, these creepy 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.160 people that prey on children. People don't like talking about it. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.880 Do they No, No, they do not. 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:45.240 Now you you're spending most of your time talking about 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.400 this subject. Why do you think people are so reluctant? 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:49.440 Is it too confronting? 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.520 Because it's for some people it's just so arborant and 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.240 so horrible to consider that someone would do this. For 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.440 some people, if they speak about it, it means they 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:07.960 have to confront their own complicit behaviors. How they haven't 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.040 stood up for someone. For some people, it's because they 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.200 they don't want to. They have to make changes if 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.800 they actually confront it and accept that this is happening 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.719 in their family or it's happened in their family, And 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.800 for most people, the easiest thing to do is to 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:25.360 ignore it. 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.960 Yeah, you nail it because well, in regards to the 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.000 way I look at it, the points that you hit 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.520 on there that are complicit, why didn't they do something? 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.360 They're going to have to change. Their whole world's going 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.280 to be tipped upside down. And that's when someone with 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.279 a family member is suspected of it that if you 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.520 bring that to the four it's going to turn the 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.919 family structure upside down. It might be the breadwinner of 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:54.480 the family, all sorts of things relationships complicit in it. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.839 I think people hide behind it, Like people just turn there. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.720 It's too confronting and they don't want to don't want 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.080 to speak about it or point out what they've seen. 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.120 Is that your take on it? Is that what you 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.200 just explained how I'm interpreting it. 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:14.520 Mostly, Yeah, some people are just some family members, parents, 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.839 you know, loved ones. They it's happened to them as well. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.240 And if they stand up to what they see or 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.599 what's happening to a child, then they have to also 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.400 look at what's happened to them, and they have to 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.680 admit that it's happened to them, or they have to 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.200 look at how they've reacted what they've done, and not 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.279 everyone's brave enough to do that, so it comes from 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.680 many places. Probably the hardest one to deal with for 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.799 me personally is the wilful ignorance. The people who stand 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.279 by and just pretend it's not happening, and they know 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.320 what's happening, they do nothing about it, and they basically 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.560 shut down the child or shut down the family member 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.800 or whatever. That's probably the hardest part for me, and 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:55.760 that's just cowdice. 0:06:55.800 --> 0:07:01.880 Basically, I'm really what you've talked, willful ignorance and cowardice 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:06.720 I think that should be legislated against, as in, people 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.320 that do know about it should be there should be 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:14.720 a charge. Now that sounds pretty heavy, but I'm tired 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.120 of hearing about people I knew that was going on, 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.640 or I suspected that was going on. Well, yeah, that's 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.119 what went wrong. When we talk these organizations, the Catholic Church, 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.440 the Scout clubs, or all the other things that have 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.920 been identified, people knew about it, but they didn't come forward. 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.040 And for the life of me, if someone's aware of 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.920 a murder and you withhold information, there's an offense there. 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.720 Why isn't the same with child's sexual abuse? 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.720 We don't take it as seriously as murder. And in 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.680 my opinion, child sexual abuse is just as bad. It 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:50.240 ruins lives, it changes trajectories. You know, you just have 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.240 to sit down with victim after victim of historical child 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.640 sexual abuse and you have you've seen the damage it does. 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.200 You know, a normal, everyday child having a happy childhood 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.440 can have their whole life turned upside down from the 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.600 minute that they're abused, and you know, it just does 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:06.400 so much damage. 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.720 And it is as worse as murder. It's as bad 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:09.120 as murder. 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.680 Should I say, well, the impact, and I've had to 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.000 have a rethink about the way I look at crime 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.040 and the ways of reducing crime. And you're a cop. 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.040 I was a cop. We used to do it by 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.320 arresting people. You're now preventing crime, which I think is 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.400 a great way of not just solving the crime, preventing 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.520 it by educating people and bringing them up up to date. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.400 But we really need to make a difference because the 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.600 impact of child's sexual abuse. I didn't really appreciate it 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.760 until I spent some time in a time in prison 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:46.120 doing a project, a podcast project inside prison. I always 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.240 thought the hatred the prison has had for pedophiles was 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.200 because of the nature of the crime. But what I 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.160 learned in there was they hate them because a lot 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.280 of them are in there because they were abused as 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.520 children and that's dictated their behavior, which has led to 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.240 them being in prison. So if we really wanted to 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:07.520 impact on crime, the offenses you're targeting and trying to 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.160 prevent is probably the biggest biggest step we could make. 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.679 Yeah, I agree, and I've had you know, I did 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:19.080 a small stinting proactive detective work, you know, drug doors 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.000 and burglaries and stolomotors and stuff, and there would be 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:24.800 a burglary series and I would go and speak to 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.520 the person once I'd been caught, and you know, interview 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.600 them and talk to them about what had happened. And generally, 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.600 you know, I reckon ninety percent of the time, they 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:35.760 were victims of child sexual abuse and that led them 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.600 down the road to subsistence abuse and you know, you know, 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.720 acting out and all of the behaviors that led to 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:44.120 their crimes. 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:50.480 Before we get into talking about your book, which I think, yeah, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.120 if you're a parent, you want to project your kids 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.240 or educate yourself, it's a great read because it's such 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:00.760 a practical and it's got that cop practical I feel 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:02.680 about it, and I say that in a good way, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:07.160 that understanding of Okay, these are the issues, how do 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.200 we address it? But a little bit about yourself, just 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.640 for people if they hadn't heard you on the podcast before. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.280 What's your background? Yeah? 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.840 Sure, So I grew up in the pilbor in Well, Calgaroley, 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:23.080 the pilbro all over the regional Western Australia. Parents separated 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.080 when I was really little. I went with my dad 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.200 for a while. I ended up getting kicked out at 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.280 home of fifteen because of difference of opinions with parents. 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.000 I ended up landing with my now in laws, my 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.240 husband we've been together twenty seven years this year and 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:45.000 married twenty three and from there basically went into you know, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:49.000 at eighteen border house. I was like, because unfortunately, you know, 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.840 parents only do what they know, and this is one 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.280 of the things you were talking about parenting and parents. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.760 You know, a lot of people hide behind the fact 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.760 that this is all they know, this is what their 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.640 parents did. And my parents acted how their parents acted, 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.760 you know, they used their fists, use their words, you know. 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.120 So I at eighteen, I bought a house because I 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.560 was like, and I hope you don't mind me swearing 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.839 how that I was like, fuck you, I'm going to 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:14.920 show you that I can do this. 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.600 So you come from Western Australia, I believe they use 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.079 the word fuck is a punctuation. 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.400 But yeah, I had someone frown at me the other 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.120 day and I was like, I'm so sorry, I just 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.280 can't not say it. Yeah, So I was, Yeah, I 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.360 wanted to show my parents that I could, you know, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:31.719 prove them wrong that I was. Yeah, So I bought 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.280 a house at eighteen just went about life. And then 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.440 at twenty six, had my daughter, and that's when my 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.920 life sort of took a change because I started looking 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:41.960 at me as a human, as a parent, and when 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.079 I don't want my daughter to have that same childhood. 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:44.760 Interesting. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:45.280 Yeah. 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.760 So and then I saw an ad in the paper 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.559 and for the police and I'm five foot one. I 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.160 always joke about this, but I'm only little, and I 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.320 thought I can do that, and everyone laughed at me. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.280 So then I went, fuck you, I'm going to show you. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.200 And yeah, I got into the police about eighteen months 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.439 later in January twenty ten. 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.120 And how long did you spend in the police and 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.760 your career in the place you found your way in 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:13.880 the child sexual abuse or child protection squads as a detective. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:14.439 Yeah. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.559 So my first four years was general duties up in Karratha. 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.240 So again I went back to the region, back to 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.200 the regions that was lack baptism by fire, because once 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.079 you're in the regions, and once you're in a country 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.040 area and there's no squads to come and savior, there's 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.280 no one to come and fix your jobs for you, 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.920 you're pretty much doing everything can. I learned forensics, I 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.040 went to crime scenes murders. I went to sudden death, 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.000 so I went to traffic crashes, I went to child 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:41.760 abuse cases. 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.080 So that was pretty pretty intense. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.920 But within the first year, the detective senior sergeant said, 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:49.720 does anyone want to go and do this training to 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:51.080 become a specialist child interviewer? 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:52.480 And I put my hand up. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.839 And at that stage, my daughter was just turning three 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.400 or just turned three, and I didn't know what I 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:58.040 was walking into. 0:12:58.080 --> 0:12:58.800 I just knew that. 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.120 I wanted to add more more to what I was 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.120 doing in the community, that I wanted to be more 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.560 and so I went and did this six five six 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.760 week training in Perth, which is sixteen hundred kilometers away, 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.840 five six weeks away from my daughter, and I learned 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.920 about child sexual abuse and how to interview kids so 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.080 that their evidence can be used in courts. So yeah, 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.960 it was pretty intense. And that's where I just my 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.720 blinkers were blown off. I was like, I had no idea. 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.400 Okay, So that opened the world to you of what 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.360 actually goes on with child sexual abuse and that's been 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.680 your life mission. Yeah, well, of sense. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.720 It wasn't at first. It was more like I just 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.200 want to do more. But as I interviewed kids and 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.560 I'm talking hundreds of kids, and as I was talking 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.320 to children, I saw patterns of behavior and I was thinking, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.040 why doesn't anyone see this, Like why don't they see 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.520 the grooming that's going on or that these. 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.080 People are acting like this. 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.880 And then after four years in the PILBRA, I went, 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.040 I don't want to hand my files over to the police, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:00.319 to the detective anymore. 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:01.440 I want to be one of them. I want to 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:02.640 lock up the bad guys as well. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.600 So I applied for I've done the forensic training as well, 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.199 but then applied for detectives at the same time and 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.760 got in and did the six weeks training in Perth again, 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:15.679 and I had to move back to Perth to become 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:20.840 a detective probationary detective. And from there I went into 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.280 a small stint, like I said, in a proactive team, 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:24.840 and then I went into the child abuse squad. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:25.880 I put my hand up to go. 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.440 Okay and the child abuse squads it's a tough gig 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:35.280 in whatever state you were working in. Because it seemed 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:39.000 to be and this is my observation throughout my career underresourced, yes, 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:44.040 because it wasn't it wasn't a headline type squad where 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.600 the work that you've done gets played out in the media, 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.360 and quite often the members were overworked and there was 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.920 a high burnout rate, and the nature of the nature 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.760 of the crimes that you're investigating to the things that 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.880 you come across, there's a high turnover rate and the 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.960 high rate of people burning themselves out in those squads. 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.920 Yeah, definitely. And you know, because the work is so important, 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.560 you feel like you can't stop, you know, as if 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.760 you care as I mean, people that care about this 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.280 work going too that work, and so you go into 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:20.800 it knowing that it's going to be hard, but you 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:21.880 just don't realize how hard. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:26.160 And the thing is, the crime keeps continuing. If you 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.400 don't pick up the ball and run with it and 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.080 do your job, there's some poor kid that's probably continually 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.600 been sexually abused and because you haven't had a chance 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.240 to get onto it. So I can see how it's 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.400 a rabbit hole that you just fall down and it's 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:40.960 never ending. 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:42.040 Yeah, definitely. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.120 Okay, you got out of the police what what brought 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:47.160 that on the decision? 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.760 Yeah, So we talked about this on the last podcast, 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.960 but I ended up with really severe anxiety and PTSD. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.800 And that was about the last eighteen months in the police. 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.280 I went to another regional center where I live now, 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.680 and I was interviewing kids, investigating their cases, locking up 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.600 the bad guys. And then I was also part of 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:09.680 the team that managed the sex offenders when they were 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.000 released from prison. And yeah, it just was too much. 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.960 And like you said, every time you did one file 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.360 there was ten waiting or twenty waiting. You know, you 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.880 just never got through it, and it just was never ending, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:26.480 so the severe anxiety PTSD. One day, I was barely 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.880 able to function at home and my daughter was about 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.720 eleven at the time, and she just said to me, Mom, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:33.520 you're not the mum I remember anymore. 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.160 I don't want you to do this anymore. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.520 That's confronting, isn't when your young child points out, hey, 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.680 you change. It's impacting on you. But the full credit 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.680 to you that you took control of it before you 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.200 were too broken, and clearly you left but you still 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:50.840 had a passion. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.280 Yeah, so I resigned the next day, actually, but I 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.760 sort of took some time to make sure I was 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:02.280 making the right decision. And then when I left, all broken, 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.160 and you know, struggling with PTSD. And I'm sure you've 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.280 got lots of listeners or lots of people and the 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.240 guests who've talked about it. You know, I was struggling. 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.520 I wasn't sure how I was going to move on. 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:15.639 I didn't know what else to do, but I just 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:17.680 knew that I wanted people to know what I knew. 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:19.520 So I just started writing things down. 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:21.919 And as I was writing them down and putting them 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.679 into story form, I was like, I actually think this 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:25.399 might be a book. 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:31.320 And that's exactly what it became, an Operation kid Safe 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:36.119 that you wrote, And full credit to you because it's 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.640 something that I've read the book and that's so educational, 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:41.719 and you know, some of the stuff is obvious, but 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.399 it's obviously some of the obvious stuff is stuff that 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.160 we ignore, and I just want to this is how 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.520 the books described, because we're going to break down some 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.720 of the lessons learned in the education that comes out 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.080 from the book, but this is the way the books 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.800 being described. This confronting but insightful book will provide you 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.000 with knowledge about child predator behaviors, tips on how to 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.600 protect and empower your children through different ages and stages 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.959 of child and teenage development, along with creating a healthy 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.920 respect for online safety. Well, you pretty well ticked all 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.199 the things that as a parent or someone that's responsible 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.440 for children you want to be able to provide. So 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.200 I'm going to ask you questions and pulling stuff from 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.960 that and if you could share share your knowledge with 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.920 our listeners. I want this to be an educational situation 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.840 where people will go, Okay, that makes sense because some 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.000 of the things that are so obvious but we just 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.680 don't know ignore or just slips through through the cracks 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:45.119 child sex offenders. You've worked in the worked in the 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.119 investigative part of that in policing and new work that 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.240 you've done. Now i'd ask the obvious question, who are they? 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.160 Well, they're definitely not the old man in the white 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.359 van that we were taught in whenever it was that 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.919 strange danger message that don't take all these from strangers, 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:01.399 et cetera. 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.800 They are everyone, unfortunately. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.919 And that that was part of the education that I 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.480 know in my childhood growing up, it was the bloke 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.280 in the rain cap with no clothes and it would 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.200 flash when you walk past. That was the only image 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.560 I had sort of growing up of what a child 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:19.760 sex offender was and that was the narrative that was 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.200 put out. But the message was sent with good intent, 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.600 but I think it misguided us all on who these 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.679 predators are. So they can be they can be anyone, 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:30.680 can't they anyone? 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:33.000 Absolutely anyone in your life. 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:37.040 There seems to me, and I didn't create the term predators, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.439 but they are predatory in the way that they go 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.200 about it. When I've locked up pedophiles, I'm surprised of 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.560 how proactive they are looking looking for their victims. Part 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.840 of their thing is they get people to trust them. Yes, 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.119 And you look at some of the some of the 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.440 areas of employment where it just sort of cries out 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.360 for it, whether it's you're seeing a lot more come 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:02.560 out about coach of kids' sports teams, like everyone do 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.240 what the coach says. You have the religious aspect of 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.040 the religions that have been tarnished with the sex offenders, 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:15.959