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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catchkillers. If you've been

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Speaker 1: an avid listener to I Catchkillers, I'm sure you've been

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Speaker 1: as confronted as much as I have. Regarding the amount

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Speaker 1: of people who have been sexually abused as children, the

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Speaker 1: impact pikable offense has on their lives is far reaching.

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Speaker 1: It's an offense that has to stop. In today's episode

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Speaker 1: of I Catch Killers, we're going to do something a

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Speaker 1: little different. We're going to discuss ways in which this

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Speaker 1: crime can be prevented and what to do if you

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Speaker 1: become aware or concerned the child is being sexually abused.

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Speaker 1: We're speaking to retired Western Australian detective Christy McVeigh, who

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Speaker 1: specialized in child abuse investigation. Christy is also the author

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Speaker 1: of a very informative book called Operation Kids Safe. A

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago we had Christy on the podcast

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Speaker 1: to discuss a police career and I couldn't think of

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Speaker 1: a better person to get back on to discuss child

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Speaker 1: predative behavior, how to protect and empowered children so they

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Speaker 1: don't become victims. This is going to be a very

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Speaker 1: important episode. Christy mcvee, welcome back to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you well, it's.

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Speaker 1: Good to finally see you in person. We've spent so

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Speaker 1: much time talking over the phone. We even did a

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Speaker 1: podcast over zoom. I think that might have been back

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Speaker 1: in the bad old days of no travel. Everyone stuck.

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Speaker 2: It was two plus years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're doing some other stuff. This is I

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Speaker 1: just want people to get a sense of why I've

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Speaker 1: got you on, because you are a very sought after

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Speaker 1: person in regards to this subject matter that you talk about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm over here for that. I came over

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Speaker 3: specifically for south By Southwest, but whilst I was here,

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Speaker 3: I managed to obviously catch up with you, catching up

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Speaker 3: with the Mum Club podcast, got some school presentations and

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Speaker 3: early childhood presentations and just catching up with survivors and

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Speaker 3: victims and other people.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the work that you're doing is making a difference,

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Speaker 1: So congratulations, but I'm glad in discussions we had before

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Speaker 1: we started recording, you're also going to walk the Sydney

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Speaker 1: Harbor Bridge.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's my celebratory for me for all of the

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Speaker 3: work that I've done this week and just to end

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Speaker 3: off the week.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you've got to find some light because it's

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Speaker 1: such a heavy subject that you talk about and your expertise,

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Speaker 1: and so I understand that why you need to recharge,

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Speaker 1: and I can't think of a better way than climbing

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Speaker 1: the Harbor Bridge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, some people would think that that was a bit excessive,

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Speaker 3: but I'm excited because it's one of those bucket list

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Speaker 3: things to do.

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Speaker 1: Oh. I hope you're looking forward to it, and I

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Speaker 1: hope you get a good day. Whether I want to

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Speaker 1: ask upfront, why are you and people that have listened

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Speaker 1: to the podcast heard us talk about child sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: and they would have heard your episode and your background.

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Speaker 1: But I just want to ask the question up front,

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Speaker 1: why are you so passionate about this subject.

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Speaker 3: It's because I can't sleep if I don't do this work.

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Speaker 3: It's my soul's mission. After hearing all of the children

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Speaker 3: that I heard, all of the stories that I was told,

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Speaker 3: all the victim survivors that contact me even today, someone

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Speaker 3: needs to shine a light on what these people do

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Speaker 3: and help parents understand how easy it is for child

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Speaker 3: sext defenders and predators to worm their way into their homes,

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Speaker 3: into their lives, and attack or abuse their children. And

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Speaker 3: if someone like myself who has the strength to talk

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Speaker 3: about it and share it, it brings forward people who

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Speaker 3: can talk about it and share it, and it creates

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Speaker 3: a wave of ripple effect.

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Speaker 1: Well, you come across as a driven person, and I

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Speaker 1: can't think of a better thing to channel channel your

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Speaker 1: energy into. But you've said, shine the light on the

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Speaker 1: spotlight on this insidious offense and these predators, these creepy

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Speaker 1: people that prey on children. People don't like talking about it.

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Speaker 2: Do they No, No, they do not.

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Speaker 1: Now you you're spending most of your time talking about

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Speaker 1: this subject. Why do you think people are so reluctant?

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Speaker 1: Is it too confronting?

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Speaker 3: Because it's for some people it's just so arborant and

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Speaker 3: so horrible to consider that someone would do this. For

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Speaker 3: some people, if they speak about it, it means they

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Speaker 3: have to confront their own complicit behaviors. How they haven't

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Speaker 3: stood up for someone. For some people, it's because they

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Speaker 3: they don't want to. They have to make changes if

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Speaker 3: they actually confront it and accept that this is happening

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Speaker 3: in their family or it's happened in their family, And

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Speaker 3: for most people, the easiest thing to do is to

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Speaker 3: ignore it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you nail it because well, in regards to the

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Speaker 1: way I look at it, the points that you hit

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Speaker 1: on there that are complicit, why didn't they do something?

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Speaker 1: They're going to have to change. Their whole world's going

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Speaker 1: to be tipped upside down. And that's when someone with

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Speaker 1: a family member is suspected of it that if you

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Speaker 1: bring that to the four it's going to turn the

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Speaker 1: family structure upside down. It might be the breadwinner of

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Speaker 1: the family, all sorts of things relationships complicit in it.

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Speaker 1: I think people hide behind it, Like people just turn there.

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Speaker 1: It's too confronting and they don't want to don't want

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Speaker 1: to speak about it or point out what they've seen.

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Speaker 1: Is that your take on it? Is that what you

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Speaker 1: just explained how I'm interpreting it.

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Speaker 3: Mostly, Yeah, some people are just some family members, parents,

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Speaker 3: you know, loved ones. They it's happened to them as well.

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Speaker 3: And if they stand up to what they see or

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Speaker 3: what's happening to a child, then they have to also

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Speaker 3: look at what's happened to them, and they have to

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Speaker 3: admit that it's happened to them, or they have to

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Speaker 3: look at how they've reacted what they've done, and not

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Speaker 3: everyone's brave enough to do that, so it comes from

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Speaker 3: many places. Probably the hardest one to deal with for

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Speaker 3: me personally is the wilful ignorance. The people who stand

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Speaker 3: by and just pretend it's not happening, and they know

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Speaker 3: what's happening, they do nothing about it, and they basically

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Speaker 3: shut down the child or shut down the family member

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Speaker 3: or whatever. That's probably the hardest part for me, and

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Speaker 3: that's just cowdice.

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Speaker 1: Basically, I'm really what you've talked, willful ignorance and cowardice

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Speaker 1: I think that should be legislated against, as in, people

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Speaker 1: that do know about it should be there should be

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Speaker 1: a charge. Now that sounds pretty heavy, but I'm tired

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Speaker 1: of hearing about people I knew that was going on,

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Speaker 1: or I suspected that was going on. Well, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what went wrong. When we talk these organizations, the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 1: the Scout clubs, or all the other things that have

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Speaker 1: been identified, people knew about it, but they didn't come forward.

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Speaker 1: And for the life of me, if someone's aware of

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Speaker 1: a murder and you withhold information, there's an offense there.

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Speaker 1: Why isn't the same with child's sexual abuse?

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Speaker 3: We don't take it as seriously as murder. And in

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Speaker 3: my opinion, child sexual abuse is just as bad. It

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Speaker 3: ruins lives, it changes trajectories. You know, you just have

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Speaker 3: to sit down with victim after victim of historical child

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse and you have you've seen the damage it does.

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Speaker 3: You know, a normal, everyday child having a happy childhood

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Speaker 3: can have their whole life turned upside down from the

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Speaker 3: minute that they're abused, and you know, it just does

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Speaker 3: so much damage.

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Speaker 2: And it is as worse as murder. It's as bad

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Speaker 2: as murder.

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Speaker 1: Should I say, well, the impact, and I've had to

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Speaker 1: have a rethink about the way I look at crime

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Speaker 1: and the ways of reducing crime. And you're a cop.

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Speaker 1: I was a cop. We used to do it by

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Speaker 1: arresting people. You're now preventing crime, which I think is

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Speaker 1: a great way of not just solving the crime, preventing

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Speaker 1: it by educating people and bringing them up up to date.

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Speaker 1: But we really need to make a difference because the

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Speaker 1: impact of child's sexual abuse. I didn't really appreciate it

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Speaker 1: until I spent some time in a time in prison

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Speaker 1: doing a project, a podcast project inside prison. I always

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Speaker 1: thought the hatred the prison has had for pedophiles was

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Speaker 1: because of the nature of the crime. But what I

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Speaker 1: learned in there was they hate them because a lot

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Speaker 1: of them are in there because they were abused as

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Speaker 1: children and that's dictated their behavior, which has led to

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Speaker 1: them being in prison. So if we really wanted to

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Speaker 1: impact on crime, the offenses you're targeting and trying to

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Speaker 1: prevent is probably the biggest biggest step we could make.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, and I've had you know, I did

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Speaker 3: a small stinting proactive detective work, you know, drug doors

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Speaker 3: and burglaries and stolomotors and stuff, and there would be

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Speaker 3: a burglary series and I would go and speak to

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Speaker 3: the person once I'd been caught, and you know, interview

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Speaker 3: them and talk to them about what had happened. And generally,

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Speaker 3: you know, I reckon ninety percent of the time, they

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Speaker 3: were victims of child sexual abuse and that led them

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Speaker 3: down the road to subsistence abuse and you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: acting out and all of the behaviors that led to

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Speaker 3: their crimes.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into talking about your book, which I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you're a parent, you want to project your kids

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Speaker 1: or educate yourself, it's a great read because it's such

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Speaker 1: a practical and it's got that cop practical I feel

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Speaker 1: about it, and I say that in a good way,

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Speaker 1: that understanding of Okay, these are the issues, how do

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Speaker 1: we address it? But a little bit about yourself, just

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Speaker 1: for people if they hadn't heard you on the podcast before.

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Speaker 1: What's your background? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure, So I grew up in the pilbor in Well, Calgaroley,

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Speaker 3: the pilbro all over the regional Western Australia. Parents separated

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Speaker 3: when I was really little. I went with my dad

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Speaker 3: for a while. I ended up getting kicked out at

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Speaker 3: home of fifteen because of difference of opinions with parents.

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Speaker 3: I ended up landing with my now in laws, my

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Speaker 3: husband we've been together twenty seven years this year and

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Speaker 3: married twenty three and from there basically went into you know,

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Speaker 3: at eighteen border house. I was like, because unfortunately, you know,

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Speaker 3: parents only do what they know, and this is one

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Speaker 3: of the things you were talking about parenting and parents.

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people hide behind the fact

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Speaker 3: that this is all they know, this is what their

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Speaker 3: parents did. And my parents acted how their parents acted,

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Speaker 3: you know, they used their fists, use their words, you know.

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Speaker 3: So I at eighteen, I bought a house because I

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Speaker 3: was like, and I hope you don't mind me swearing

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Speaker 3: how that I was like, fuck you, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: show you that I can do this.

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Speaker 1: So you come from Western Australia, I believe they use

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Speaker 1: the word fuck is a punctuation.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I had someone frown at me the other

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Speaker 3: day and I was like, I'm so sorry, I just

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Speaker 3: can't not say it. Yeah, So I was, Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: wanted to show my parents that I could, you know,

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Speaker 3: prove them wrong that I was. Yeah, So I bought

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Speaker 3: a house at eighteen just went about life. And then

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Speaker 3: at twenty six, had my daughter, and that's when my

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Speaker 3: life sort of took a change because I started looking

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Speaker 3: at me as a human, as a parent, and when

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Speaker 3: I don't want my daughter to have that same childhood.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So and then I saw an ad in the paper

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Speaker 3: and for the police and I'm five foot one. I

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Speaker 3: always joke about this, but I'm only little, and I

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Speaker 3: thought I can do that, and everyone laughed at me.

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Speaker 3: So then I went, fuck you, I'm going to show you.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I got into the police about eighteen months

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Speaker 3: later in January twenty ten.

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Speaker 1: And how long did you spend in the police and

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Speaker 1: your career in the place you found your way in

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Speaker 1: the child sexual abuse or child protection squads as a detective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So my first four years was general duties up in Karratha.

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Speaker 3: So again I went back to the region, back to

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Speaker 3: the regions that was lack baptism by fire, because once

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Speaker 3: you're in the regions, and once you're in a country

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Speaker 3: area and there's no squads to come and savior, there's

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Speaker 3: no one to come and fix your jobs for you,

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Speaker 3: you're pretty much doing everything can. I learned forensics, I

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Speaker 3: went to crime scenes murders. I went to sudden death,

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Speaker 3: so I went to traffic crashes, I went to child

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Speaker 3: abuse cases.

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Speaker 2: So that was pretty pretty intense.

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Speaker 3: But within the first year, the detective senior sergeant said,

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Speaker 3: does anyone want to go and do this training to

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Speaker 3: become a specialist child interviewer?

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Speaker 2: And I put my hand up.

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Speaker 3: And at that stage, my daughter was just turning three

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Speaker 3: or just turned three, and I didn't know what I

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Speaker 3: was walking into.

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Speaker 2: I just knew that.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to add more more to what I was

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Speaker 3: doing in the community, that I wanted to be more

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Speaker 3: and so I went and did this six five six

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Speaker 3: week training in Perth, which is sixteen hundred kilometers away,

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Speaker 3: five six weeks away from my daughter, and I learned

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Speaker 3: about child sexual abuse and how to interview kids so

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Speaker 3: that their evidence can be used in courts. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was pretty intense. And that's where I just my

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Speaker 3: blinkers were blown off. I was like, I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So that opened the world to you of what

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Speaker 1: actually goes on with child sexual abuse and that's been

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Speaker 1: your life mission. Yeah, well, of sense.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't at first. It was more like I just

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Speaker 3: want to do more. But as I interviewed kids and

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Speaker 3: I'm talking hundreds of kids, and as I was talking

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Speaker 3: to children, I saw patterns of behavior and I was thinking,

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Speaker 3: why doesn't anyone see this, Like why don't they see

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Speaker 3: the grooming that's going on or that these.

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Speaker 2: People are acting like this.

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Speaker 3: And then after four years in the PILBRA, I went,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to hand my files over to the police,

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Speaker 3: to the detective anymore.

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Speaker 2: I want to be one of them. I want to

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Speaker 2: lock up the bad guys as well.

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Speaker 3: So I applied for I've done the forensic training as well,

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Speaker 3: but then applied for detectives at the same time and

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Speaker 3: got in and did the six weeks training in Perth again,

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Speaker 3: and I had to move back to Perth to become

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Speaker 3: a detective probationary detective. And from there I went into

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Speaker 3: a small stint, like I said, in a proactive team,

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Speaker 3: and then I went into the child abuse squad.

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Speaker 2: I put my hand up to go.

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Speaker 1: Okay and the child abuse squads it's a tough gig

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Speaker 1: in whatever state you were working in. Because it seemed

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Speaker 1: to be and this is my observation throughout my career underresourced, yes,

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Speaker 1: because it wasn't it wasn't a headline type squad where

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Speaker 1: the work that you've done gets played out in the media,

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Speaker 1: and quite often the members were overworked and there was

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Speaker 1: a high burnout rate, and the nature of the nature

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Speaker 1: of the crimes that you're investigating to the things that

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Speaker 1: you come across, there's a high turnover rate and the

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Speaker 1: high rate of people burning themselves out in those squads.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. And you know, because the work is so important,

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Speaker 3: you feel like you can't stop, you know, as if

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Speaker 3: you care as I mean, people that care about this

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Speaker 3: work going too that work, and so you go into

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Speaker 3: it knowing that it's going to be hard, but you

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Speaker 3: just don't realize how hard.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is, the crime keeps continuing. If you

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Speaker 1: don't pick up the ball and run with it and

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Speaker 1: do your job, there's some poor kid that's probably continually

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Speaker 1: been sexually abused and because you haven't had a chance

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Speaker 1: to get onto it. So I can see how it's

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Speaker 1: a rabbit hole that you just fall down and it's

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Speaker 1: never ending.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you got out of the police what what brought

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Speaker 1: that on the decision?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we talked about this on the last podcast,

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Speaker 3: but I ended up with really severe anxiety and PTSD.

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Speaker 3: And that was about the last eighteen months in the police.

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Speaker 3: I went to another regional center where I live now,

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Speaker 3: and I was interviewing kids, investigating their cases, locking up

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Speaker 3: the bad guys. And then I was also part of

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Speaker 3: the team that managed the sex offenders when they were

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Speaker 3: released from prison. And yeah, it just was too much.

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Speaker 3: And like you said, every time you did one file

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Speaker 3: there was ten waiting or twenty waiting. You know, you

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Speaker 3: just never got through it, and it just was never ending,

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Speaker 3: so the severe anxiety PTSD. One day, I was barely

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Speaker 3: able to function at home and my daughter was about

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Speaker 3: eleven at the time, and she just said to me, Mom,

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Speaker 3: you're not the mum I remember anymore.

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Speaker 2: I don't want you to do this anymore.

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Speaker 1: That's confronting, isn't when your young child points out, hey,

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Speaker 1: you change. It's impacting on you. But the full credit

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Speaker 1: to you that you took control of it before you

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Speaker 1: were too broken, and clearly you left but you still

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Speaker 1: had a passion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I resigned the next day, actually, but I

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Speaker 3: sort of took some time to make sure I was

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Speaker 3: making the right decision. And then when I left, all broken,

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Speaker 3: and you know, struggling with PTSD. And I'm sure you've

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Speaker 3: got lots of listeners or lots of people and the

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Speaker 3: guests who've talked about it. You know, I was struggling.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't sure how I was going to move on.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what else to do, but I just

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Speaker 3: knew that I wanted people to know what I knew.

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Speaker 2: So I just started writing things down.

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Speaker 3: And as I was writing them down and putting them

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Speaker 3: into story form, I was like, I actually think this

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Speaker 3: might be a book.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what it became, an Operation kid Safe

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Speaker 1: that you wrote, And full credit to you because it's

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Speaker 1: something that I've read the book and that's so educational,

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Speaker 1: and you know, some of the stuff is obvious, but

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Speaker 1: it's obviously some of the obvious stuff is stuff that

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Speaker 1: we ignore, and I just want to this is how

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Speaker 1: the books described, because we're going to break down some

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Speaker 1: of the lessons learned in the education that comes out

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Speaker 1: from the book, but this is the way the books

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Speaker 1: being described. This confronting but insightful book will provide you

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Speaker 1: with knowledge about child predator behaviors, tips on how to

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Speaker 1: protect and empower your children through different ages and stages

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Speaker 1: of child and teenage development, along with creating a healthy

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Speaker 1: respect for online safety. Well, you pretty well ticked all

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Speaker 1: the things that as a parent or someone that's responsible

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Speaker 1: for children you want to be able to provide. So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you questions and pulling stuff from

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Speaker 1: that and if you could share share your knowledge with

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Speaker 1: our listeners. I want this to be an educational situation

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Speaker 1: where people will go, Okay, that makes sense because some

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Speaker 1: of the things that are so obvious but we just

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Speaker 1: don't know ignore or just slips through through the cracks

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Speaker 1: child sex offenders. You've worked in the worked in the

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Speaker 1: investigative part of that in policing and new work that

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Speaker 1: you've done. Now i'd ask the obvious question, who are they?

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Speaker 3: Well, they're definitely not the old man in the white

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Speaker 3: van that we were taught in whenever it was that

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Speaker 3: strange danger message that don't take all these from strangers,

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Speaker 3: et cetera.

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Speaker 2: They are everyone, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: And that that was part of the education that I

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Speaker 1: know in my childhood growing up, it was the bloke

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Speaker 1: in the rain cap with no clothes and it would

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Speaker 1: flash when you walk past. That was the only image

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Speaker 1: I had sort of growing up of what a child

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Speaker 1: sex offender was and that was the narrative that was

385
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Speaker 1: put out. But the message was sent with good intent,

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Speaker 1: but I think it misguided us all on who these

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Speaker 1: predators are. So they can be they can be anyone,

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Speaker 1: can't they anyone?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely anyone in your life.

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Speaker 1: There seems to me, and I didn't create the term predators,

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Speaker 1: but they are predatory in the way that they go

392
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Speaker 1: about it. When I've locked up pedophiles, I'm surprised of

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Speaker 1: how proactive they are looking looking for their victims. Part

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Speaker 1: of their thing is they get people to trust them. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And you look at some of the some of the

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Speaker 1: areas of employment where it just sort of cries out

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Speaker 1: for it, whether it's you're seeing a lot more come

398
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Speaker 1: out about coach of kids' sports teams, like everyone do

399
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Speaker 1: what the coach says. You have the religious aspect of

400
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 1: the religions that have been tarnished with the sex offenders,

401
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,959
Speaker 1: institutionalized sexual abuse. You have scout leaders, those type of

402
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 1: type of people that the community look up to. But

403
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Speaker 1: that just makes it easier for them to go about

404
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 1: their business, doesn't.

405
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Speaker 2: It very much so?

406
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Speaker 3: And there was a recent study earlier this year, late

407
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Speaker 3: last year by the Institute of Criminology, and they basically

408
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Speaker 3: did an anonymous survey of men in Australia and the

409
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Speaker 3: survey was the questions were so well put that basically

410
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Speaker 3: they were able to work out that one in six

411
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Speaker 3: Australian men are attracted to children and I'm sure I can.

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Speaker 2: Share that for the show notes.

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Speaker 3: And then also that anyone attracted to children is three

414
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Speaker 3: times more likely to be in a job working with children.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's break those figures. So one in six yes, males, Yes,

416
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Speaker 1: attracted to sexually attracted to children. Yes. And then what

417
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Speaker 1: was the other figure.

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Speaker 3: That they're three times more likely to work in a

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Speaker 3: position where they have access to children.

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Speaker 1: Okay, do you think that's no, that's probably delving, delving

421
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Speaker 1: too deep. But it makes sense that they're in an

422
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Speaker 1: industry if that says sexual attraction, that's where they gravitate

423
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Speaker 1: towards and that they get get access access to children.

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Speaker 1: It was recently in I think it's Australia wide them,

425
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Speaker 1: not even sure which state, but they well known swimming

426
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Speaker 1: coach that was convicted child's sexual abuse. Like an environment

427
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Speaker 1: like that is, yeah, it's just conducive to carrying out

428
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Speaker 1: their evil ways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, any any position of power and authority. You know.

430
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Speaker 3: So it's like you said, it's if they're attracted, if

431
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Speaker 3: they even have an inkling of an attraction, you know,

432
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Speaker 3: if they like kids, they're going to be you know,

433
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 3: heading towards that pathway. They're going to find jobs where

434
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 3: they're surrounded by children. You know, a lot of predators

435
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 3: and pedophiles might not realize to begin with that they

436
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Speaker 3: actually have that attraction.

437
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Speaker 1: Okay, that's when I said, that's too deep. That's what

438
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Speaker 1: I want them to talk about. So it's that environment.

439
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 1: Maybe it's opened their eyes to they are attracted to them.

440
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it also there's so many different factors. And look,

441
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 3: I'm not a psychologist or a criminologist. I'm just someone

442
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 3: who's very observant. And so some of them will have,

443
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: you know, and not an inkling. They might think about

444
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,959
Speaker 3: children and then they start watching certain pornography and then

445
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: they you know, and it takes years. Sometimes not always.

446
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: Some people just go, I like children, I'm going to

447
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 3: abuse children. But sometimes it takes years to get over

448
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 3: that that knowledge and to get past their restrictions or

449
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 3: their beliefs and their values that they know that that's wrong.

450
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: They have to get past that, and so they have

451
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 3: to then you know, it can take years. And the

452
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: other thing that research found is that the men that

453
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 3: had admitted to being attracted and abusing children, they were

454
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 3: in the.

455
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: Forty plus category.

456
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 3: The men that admitted to being attracted to children and

457
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 3: wanting help were in the thirty minus category. And that

458
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 3: sort of rings true with me because I saw a

459
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 3: lot of sex offenders who had gone years without doing

460
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: anything and all of a sudden they start offending.

461
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: Is the system set up? And there's so much to

462
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: talk about with the men that are attracted to children,

463
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: but they seek help. Is there help available to men

464
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: like that?

465
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 3: Only just recently there was never any help. I don't

466
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 3: even know. But there's now anonymous that word phone line

467
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 3: called US and you can basically stop it now. Australia

468
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 3: is the phone line and you can look up on

469
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 3: the website. You can talk to a psychologist, but it's

470
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: very underfunded, so it's very.

471
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: Hard to get people.

472
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,479
Speaker 3: But there are people who know that they're gotten attraction

473
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: to children want help for it.

474
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: Okay, because I know, and I'm a part to blame

475
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: that pedophiles will stuff them. I don't care about them.

476
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: And all that someone raised just in the philosophical discussion

477
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: I had with a friend about what if someone came

478
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: and said they're attracted to children and they don't want

479
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: to offend, what should happen? And I'm beating on the

480
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: chest all the bravado all stuff, and if they're attracted

481
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: to children, but really, there's a place for a service

482
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: like that, isn't there?

483
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 2: There definitely is.

484
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, if we want to, if we want to fight

485
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 3: child sexual abuse, we need to fight it from all angles.

486
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 3: We can't just say stuff them and throw them in

487
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 3: the jail and leave them in the corner. We need

488
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,959
Speaker 3: to fight it from all angles. And some of it

489
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: has to be therapeutic. Some of it has to be

490
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 3: through psychology and through understanding why.

491
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: And for someone to I think it takes courage for

492
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: someone to put the hand up if they haven't offended

493
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: and go, look, I'm tutoring. And that's sexual urge. Like

494
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: I saw it in homicide. You see it in so

495
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: many crimes. It's a powerful urge and people struggle to

496
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: fight against it. If someone's got that attraction to children

497
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: and they haven't offended and that they want to get help, yeah,

498
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: it needs to be there.

499
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: It needs to be there. We've got to take it

500
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 3: from all angles. But one of the things that I

501
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 3: don't think people understand with sex offenders is that there's

502
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 3: three types, or in study and research, there's three types,

503
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 3: but they're they're expanding this. So the first is predatory

504
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: or pedophilic. They're born attracted to children. According to this

505
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 3: study and basically everything, they're the classic sex offender. One

506
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 3: of the interesting things I actually had a criminologist on

507
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 3: my podcast recently and she said, in that pedophilic predatory,

508
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 3: they usually abuse boys, so they're more likely to abuse

509
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 3: boys and young children. And the next category is opportunistic,

510
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 3: so they can have a relationship with her, female or

511
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: whatever part but then they will offend against children as well.

512
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: So the first the predatory, they.

513
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 3: Generally won't be able to have a relationship with women

514
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 3: or with a partner because they're.

515
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: Attracted to children in the attraction.

516
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: The second the opportunistic, they can have a relationship, they

517
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 3: can go years with nothing happening and then something triggers

518
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 3: it or they finally get their chance. And then the

519
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: last one is situational, and we see situational offenders. They're

520
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: the type that break into someone's house, to break into

521
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 3: someone's house and steal something and then rape the person inside.

522
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 3: So or they lose their job and they've lost all

523
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: control and power, or their wife's left them or whatever,

524
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 3: and then they're abusing whatever because they're trying to get

525
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 3: control back.

526
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

527
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: Make sense? Yeah?

528
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: So it's not one.

529
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 3: Size fits all. They're just attracted to children. They just

530
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 3: you know, they're just a pedophile. There is multiple different

531
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: ways in which they offend.

532
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: Okay, when we're talking, we'll move on. But I just

533
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: want to raise another aspect. When I catch my son's socked,

534
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,719
Speaker 1: you had to fill out working with Children's form and

535
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: that is there room for improvement on those type of documents?

536
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 2: Yes?

537
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: Okay, Well I'm smirking because working with children checks obviously

538
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 3: working that they identify if someone's had an offense against

539
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: a child, But other than that, it takes twenty four

540
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 3: years twenty four to thirty years twenty four for women

541
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 3: and thirty years before first disclosure for most people.

542
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: You know.

543
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: So, so the offend that could basically go through their

544
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: whole life about it being disclosed, correct, yea, So any

545
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: way that that could be improved?

546
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, talking about it.

547
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: Okay, but like talking about how do we do the

548
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: safety check, I put my hand up and want to

549
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: coach my son's soccer team. Is there any any ways

550
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: that you think we could improve it or scrutinize it

551
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: a little bit more.

552
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: There's no ways on the without having a relationship with someone,

553
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 3: there's no ways to tell, right. But I think every

554
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: community group, sports organization they need to have some form

555
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: of child safety policy where and child safety training where,

556
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 3: for instance, someone like myself comes in and says, hey,

557
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: this is what you've got to watch out for in

558
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 3: your members, this is what this is how you can

559
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 3: cover your ass and make sure that your children are

560
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: safe in your environment whilst they're in your care, because

561
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: it's your duty of care to keep them safe.

562
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it would be a big ask, and I

563
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: think most people do this naturally. People like I would

564
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: never be in a change room with a young kid

565
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: on my own that type of stuff. So maybe it

566
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: needs to be out set out. These are the rules

567
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: you can't take a child or be with a child

568
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: on your own, those type of things.

569
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: But it's interesting you say that that's something that you

570
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: say I would never do that.

571
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: That's just that's common sense to you.

572
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: They're okay, they're in there there, And that's probably the difference,

573
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: isn't it, Because the ones that would be inclined to

574
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: offend probably, Oh, this is a great opportunity. I'll drive

575
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: Johnny home today. Don't you worry about picking your son up.

576
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: I'll drive him home. Whereas I think, no, I don't

577
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: want to put anyone in that position.

578
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 3: Correct, And that's common sense to you, But to the

579
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: average person that's not common sense.

580
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: Okay, well there's room for improvement there. How do I'm

581
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: just going through some of the obvious things, But again,

582
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: sometimes what's obvious isn't It doesn't jump out. How do

583
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: they target children? As a parent, what are you looking

584
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: out for if you're worried about a person, or how

585
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: they target the children, how they find their victims.

586
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: So they're looking for children who are vulnerable, and vulnerability

587
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 3: comes in lots of ways. It comes in that they're

588
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 3: very young and they don't have the necessary language skills

589
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 3: to be able to say anything. Sadly, that happens a lot.

590
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: And then they're looking for children who either don't have

591
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 3: very good parental guidance supervision, parents who are very busy,

592
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 3: they go into positions of power and authority of children

593
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: where they're naturally trusted with children, and they just find

594
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: that child that might not have very good self esteem,

595
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: might not have very good support in place. They're looking,

596
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 3: they're searching for that victim, and they're finding those victims,

597
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: and they're easy to find because as parents, they're not

598
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 3: going to target a child who has a strong parent

599
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 3: behind them.

600
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just thinking anecdotally the people who have come

601
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: on the podcast that invariably when they've been victims of

602
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse, it's because there's been some upturn in

603
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: their family or they haven't got the supervision that the

604
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: kids within a more stable home.

605
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I also want to mention, you know, sadly,

606
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 3: some of these predators will target single parents, you know,

607
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 3: where the child is moving from one home to the other,

608
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: where there's no stability or there's a lack of stability.

609
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: They will target you know, a lot of those sorts

610
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: of parents as well, because that means that they can

611
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: come into that life and be living in that life

612
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: with that child. It's an automatic trust.

613
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So hearing what you're saying here, the responsibility in

614
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: you've got to educate the children, but you've also got

615
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: to create the protective behaviors of the parents. So breaking

616
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: it down, how would you summarize the best way to

617
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: protect your protect your child.

618
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: First of all, we need to well, I always think awareness.

619
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: So this is a really uncomfortable conversation for a lot

620
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 3: of people. And I always whenever I stand in front

621
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 3: of a room of people and talk about this, I

622
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: give them a content warning and I say, look, this

623
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: is really uncomfortable, and it's uncomfortable for everyone in this room.

624
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: But I encourage you to lean into the uncomfortableness and

625
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: work out why it's uncomfortable for you, because that is

626
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: the answer to how we're going to stop, you know,

627
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 3: and how we're going to stop leaning backwards and let's

628
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 3: lean forward into it. And so the first thing is awareness,

629
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: you know, listening to this podcast, reading books about understanding.

630
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: Ninety percent of that is by someone known to the child.

631
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: So it's not a stranger who's going to come and

632
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 3: abuse your child. It's going to be someone in your

633
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: own home, someone you've invited into your own home or

634
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 3: is part of your family. Sadly, forty seven percent of

635
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: that and this is from last year's Australian Bureau Statistics.

636
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 3: Forty seven percent of that is a male adult or sorry,

637
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: a male in the family, and twenty six percent is

638
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 3: an immediate family member or sorry non immediate family member, uncle, cousin, grandfather,

639
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: et cetera. Sixteen percent is a father or stepfather, and

640
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 3: six percent is a brother or stepbrother. So that is

641
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: one of the things that we need to remember. Thirty

642
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: to fifty percent of all child sexual abuse is by

643
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: another child, So we need to know that these are

644
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: the statistics, these are the realities because whilst we if

645
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 3: it's predictable, it's preventable, it's not someone else's child.

646
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: It can happen to It can happen to your.

647
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: Child, okay, And when you say being comfortable leaning into it,

648
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: it is confronting, isn't it, Because you're okay, it could

649
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 1: be a family member, so you're not, Oh, we're all safe,

650
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: everyone's at home, a big party, we're safe in this environment.

651
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: They are the times that you're just going to be aware.

652
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

653
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 3: My first job, my first child abuse job, when I

654
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 3: was probationary constable, was a young girl had gone to

655
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: her friend's house for a sleepover. The parents were having

656
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 3: a party so that they let the kids have their

657
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 3: friends over. And one of the guests at that party

658
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 3: abused the girl while overnight, whilst he was drunk and

659
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 3: there and that's no excuse. The alcohol was no excuse.

660
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 3: But she should have been safe in that environment and

661
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: the supervision should have been there and no one she wasn't.

662
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: And again, if you're that sort of awareness, and what

663
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: we talked about where I said, if I'm coaching a

664
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: kid's soccer team, I'm not on my own with the

665
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: child if there's someone because quite often you hear it

666
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: and I just remember this from a police time that Yeah,

667
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: he always used to hang around the kids at the party.

668
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: Everyone all the adults will be on the back deck

669
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: having a drink and eating. There's one person playing down

670
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: in the backyard with the kids the whole time.

671
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: Yep, that's exactly how it goes.

672
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: And we're not accusing every one of those ones playing

673
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: with the kids, but let's just keep an eye on

674
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: why is that person spending so much time with the children.

675
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, So last week my mum was talking to me.

676
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 3: It was actually quite funny because I was getting I

677
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 3: had a photo shoot for some content stuff, and she

678
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 3: was doing my makeup, and she said, I've seen you

679
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 3: on TikTok and I was like wow. Anyway, so she

680
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 3: straightaway told me this story. And the story was that

681
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 3: they were at Christmas party. Everyone was drinking, all the

682
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 3: adults were drinking. Her cousin, a family member, had bought

683
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 3: her new boyfriend with her.

684
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: He's in his.

685
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 3: Thirties, she's in her thirties, and he did that. He

686
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 3: was hanging around the kids all night, and she kept

687
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: going like she didn't sit right with her. So she

688
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 3: kept going, you know, to check in, Hey, leave the

689
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: kids alone, like come and hang with the adults kind

690
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: of thing. They're fine, they're looking after each other. And

691
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 3: you know, later that night, whilst everyone was drunk, he

692
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: tried to kiss the ten year old. And you know,

693
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 3: luckily they had such a close knit family. She come

694
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: running out, told her mom. Mom went to make her

695
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 3: like blow up and make a big deal about it.

696
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 3: Everyone told her to be quiet, like it's not that

697
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 3: big a deal. You know, this is a thing like

698
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 3: culturally and socially, we aren't speaking up for kids. And

699
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 3: in fact, that person come running out after the little

700
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: girls like it's okay, it's okay, I'll give you the lollies,

701
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 3: you know. And what he had tried to do was

702
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 3: get her close to him. He said, come here, I've

703
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: got a secret, and yeah, tried to kiss her on

704
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: the lips, and.

705
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: He had all the red flags gone on.

706
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 3: And you know, unfortunately, because she had spoken up at

707
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: the party, she you know, the party shut down straight

708
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: after that. She's now been ostracized by the family because

709
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 3: they think well, and he's also still in the family

710
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: making a big deal that she's the problem.

711
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: I sit here and I've got anger written all over

712
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: my face because I hate those situations where people are

713
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: just not and I don't know like you, and I

714
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: look at it and I feel like, yeah, I'm not

715
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: sure if we get that from play, like we've had

716
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: to learn to. Yeah, people do bad things and sometimes

717
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: action's got to be taken. But that seeckens me. That's

718
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: the way that played out. But as you're telling the story,

719
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: I'm thinking how it plays out, they'll be pissed off

720
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: because people are enjoying the party and we're making a

721
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: big deal. There was nothing. Yeah, And I say, and

722
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: the scenario there is such a typical scenario. Typical scenario.

723
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, he chose the wrong child though, And it was

724
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: interesting because she said the family member that had brought

725
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 3: him to the party, she doesn't like kids, and he

726
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: was hanging around the kids. So she was hanging around

727
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: him because that was her partner, her new partner, and

728
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 3: she was like, I don't understand how she would spend

729
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: all that time with the kids and why she wasn't

730
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 3: dragging him back outside. And he saw it as his

731
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 3: prime opportunity to try something on And I have no

732
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 3: idea why he would try that with a child that

733
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 3: obviously had But sometimes they stuff up. Yeah, sometimes they

734
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: make mistakes of who they pick as a victim.

735
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about but the kids making

736
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: them be able to identify the dangers. We're talking more

737
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: so at the parents. But you're also one of the

738
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: things that you said that of the type of people

739
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: of the fan, kids sexually abuse other kids. Yeah, tell

740
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: me about tell me about that, because that's another aspect

741
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: that we don't because, okay, well, everyone's safety because there's

742
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: kids in there, but there's a big power and balance

743
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: if one child's three or four years older than the

744
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: other child. So tell us that you take on that. Yeah.

745
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 3: So when I first joined the job, when we saw

746
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: a child displaying harmful sexualized behaviors, which is harming other children,

747
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: abusing other children, we naturally assumed that they'd been abused

748
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 3: because that was used to be the norm. Right. If

749
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 3: a child displayed these harmful sexualized behaviors touching another child, inappropriately,

750
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: forcing another child to do things, coercing another child, that

751
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 3: meant that something's happening in the background. But now towards

752
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 3: the end of my career and since speaking to more

753
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 3: victims and more survivors, we're now seeing a lot more

754
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: children displaying those harmful sexualized behavior is due to exposure

755
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 3: to pornography.

756
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: Well, okay, that makes sense because the type of exposure

757
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: they get to pornography is just mind blowing compared to

758
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: what generation before was exposed to. So I could imagine

759
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: kids acting out what they're seeing on the pornography they're watching,

760
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 1: and there's victims to that as well.

761
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if we don't counterbalance what they're seeing online

762
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 3: by a conversation or by you know, having those conversations

763
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 3: and education around it, then they're just acting out what

764
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 3: they're seeing. And and you know, I think the current

765
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,479
Speaker 3: start on you know, first exposure to pornography is eight

766
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: is the earliest age, and it's younger.

767
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: Head's way younger.

768
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: Well, and the sexualization online and all of the other

769
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: stuff they're seeing online, you know, so if we don't

770
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 3: counterbalance that with conversations around body safety and we'll talk

771
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 3: more about that soon. Basically, our kids are just acting

772
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 3: out what they see. They dance to what they see,

773
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 3: they dress to what they see. So why wouldn't they

774
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: be acting out, you know, seized behaviors unless we have

775
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 3: that conversation.

776
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, an important point. And if they're saying by eight,

777
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: we'll think of all the stuff you got away with

778
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: as a kid before your parents realized. I'm sure the

779
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 1: kids have getting exposed to it at an earlier age.

780
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: So how and when do you start conversation protecting the children,

781
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: as in getting the children to be aware of what's

782
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: going on. How does that play out?

783
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 3: I talk about it from birth, but that's and I

784
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 3: realized that that's like a concept that goes why would

785
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 3: we talk about this from birth? But I'm not meaning

786
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 3: that we talk about this stuff as in I'm going

787
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 3: to tell you about what sexual abuse is. What I'm

788
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: talking about is consent and body autonomy. You know, when

789
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: you have a young baby, you talk to them about

790
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,479
Speaker 3: what you're doing to their body. Hey, i'm just changing

791
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: your nappy. I'm just going to wipe this part. I'm

792
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 3: just going to put these clothes on now. And we

793
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 3: start verbalizing what we're doing, and you start talking to

794
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: them about what you're doing to them. And then when

795
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 3: they get to about two and they're now having much

796
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: more verbalized conversations. We also make sure that we're using

797
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 3: correct body terminology with children. You know, we name all

798
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: their parts, and we also talk to them about private

799
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: versus public, and you know, two seems really young, but hey,

800
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 3: that's our private part. You know, you're just having those

801
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 3: conversations and reinforcing those messages that this is their body,

802
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 3: they're in charge of their body, and these are their parts,

803
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: and that this is what's private and this is what's public.

804
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 3: And as we do everything with them, we're changing them,

805
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 3: we're helping them toilet train, we're doing we're just reinforcing that.

806
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 3: And eventually they get to an age around three where

807
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 3: we start asking consent, Hey, is it okay if i'll

808
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 3: wipe your mom?

809
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: Okay? Well, see you've educated me, because I wouldn't have

810
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: thought that they even kicked in at that stage. But

811
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, because yeah, they're the form

812
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: of the views, you know, two, the three, four, that

813
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: type of that type of age. Okay, so that's that's

814
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: the narrative starts at that early age.

815
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we're just giving them. We're just giving them

816
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: the respect they deserve and the bodily autonomy. And then

817
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 3: what happens is is that as we're teaching these lessons

818
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 3: and that we're you know, scaffolding them all or adding

819
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 3: to them as they get older, we can start talking

820
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: about private versus public movies, private versus public photos. We

821
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: don't actually have to talk about pornography at all. We

822
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: can just say private parts. We don't show anyone our

823
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 3: private parts, don't take photos of our private parts, and

824
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 3: we never if someone shows us a private movie or

825
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 3: a private photo of their private parts, what do we do.

826
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: Okay, We're going to go and tell mum or dad

827
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: or safe person.

828
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: And having the parts named is that your penis your vagina,

829
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: and have giving them the language instead of the stupid names.

830
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to say what mine was called

831
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: when I was crying up. But that's the way it was.

832
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: It was all ways a stupid, stupid name.

833
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: Oh my godness, I've heard them all.

834
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: But you know the thing is is we call it

835
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 3: volver a vagina, bum bottom, you know, penis, testicle's mouth

836
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: and the mouth is a private part by the way, everyone, okay,

837
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 3: So we teach that all of these private parts are

838
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 3: what they are because in little children, especially, predators will

839
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: use games, they'll game afire their abuse in order to

840
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 3: make the child enjoy it. Not all sexual abuse is painful, hurts,

841
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 3: or that the child realizes what's happening.

842
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 1: So the child's enjoying it getting rewarded for it. Yeah.

843
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: So okay, all those parts that you rattle off, they're

844
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: your private parts and nipple's okay, and don't forget those, okay,

845
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: no one forget that they're they're all the all the

846
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: parts that the child should at an early age. And

847
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: we're talking three understand they're my private parts. And then

848
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: that child, be the boy or a girl, could have

849
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: a conversation with a parent saying someone touched my private parts.

850
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I will tell you a story that just

851
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 3: came last week. So I created these conversations with kids

852
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 3: body safety cards so that to help parents have conversations

853
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 3: with their kids and to prompt them in what questions,

854
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 3: to ask them, how to talk to them. So I've

855
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: created this like downloadable resource. And so this parent contacted

856
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 3: me last week and said, I downloaded your cards. They're amazing.

857
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 3: I just wanted to tell you that I was talking

858
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 3: to my three year old daughter about body safety and

859
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: she said a family member had dug into her vagina

860
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: with his finger, right, Okay, And.

861
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: That's really hard to hear.

862
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but and she said, if I hadn't been

863
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 3: having that conversation, I don't know if she.

864
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 2: Would have told me.

865
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: Wow. Well, well, I said at the start, you're making

866
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: the difference. But those things are important. But break down

867
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: this card system, you said, because again these things that

868
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,720
Speaker 1: I thought I had a sense of how to protect

869
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: the child and the type of things. But what you're

870
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: talking about this common sense and when you explain it.

871
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: So body safety is like we've got body safety rules.

872
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 3: My privates are my privates. Someone's allowed to touch my privates.

873
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: I'm not allowed touch other people's privates. You know, if

874
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: I say no, adults and other people should respect that.

875
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's all about you know, just respecting yourself

876
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 3: and respecting other people. And that's something we should all

877
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 3: be taught from a really young age, right, And we

878
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 3: probably wouldn't be having the issues with consent and all

879
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 3: of this if we were taught it from birth.

880
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

881
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 3: So some of the body safety lessons are about early

882
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 3: warning signs, and I'm not sure it's in my book

883
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 3: and it's in these cards. So early warning signs are

884
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 3: the feelings we get. We call them gut feelings right

885
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 3: where in your body you feel unsafe or safe.

886
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 2: But in order for a child to.

887
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 3: Understand what they're feeling, we need to help them learn

888
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 3: what that is. So when I was teaching my daughter,

889
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 3: for instance, she would say I don't feel you know,

890
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 3: I feel sick, for instance, and that's a common thing

891
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 3: parents hear from their children. And I would say, Okay,

892
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 3: where are you feeling sick? What feels sick? And she

893
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 3: would say, I have butterflies and my tummy or I

894
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: feel sick, or my legs or my knees are shaking,

895
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 3: my hands are shaking, whatever I'm sweating. But there's multiple

896
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: ways that we feel unsafe our body get how we

897
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 3: respond to the stimuli of feeling unsafe and that's our

898
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 3: early warning signs. That's telling us that don't feel safe

899
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 3: in this moment, for instance. And to make it even

900
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: more clearer, yesterday I had to go and sit on

901
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 3: stage and talk to hundreds of people and I was

902
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: quite nervous. I was excited, but nervous, right, So that

903
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 3: was showing up in Butterflies.

904
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: I had the jitters.

905
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: I had a little bit of a headache because you know,

906
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 3: that's how my body was. Yeah, those were my nerves,

907
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: and I was able to understand that that's just because

908
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: I was about to do something that was out of

909
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 3: my comfort zone and exciting. We can break that down

910
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 3: for kids so that they can understand that those feelings

911
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 3: are either safe unsafe, and then what to do next.

912
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: So that's the first part.

913
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 1: Okay, I just holding on that part. I can see

914
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: the benefit see it because if a child was being

915
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: abused by someone and they felt uncomfortable, it didn't feel right.

916
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: At Butterflies, I can imagine a young child just going,

917
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to go to the uncle such and

918
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: such place. Why I feel sick. You're saying, give the

919
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: child the language, the language to explain why. Yep, it

920
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:58,479
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense.

921
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 3: I mean at first, we're just like trying to identify

922
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 3: those feelings. We're just going, okay, you know when we

923
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 3: feel what does it feel like to feel safe? Or

924
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: when you give when you're with mum, how does that feel?

925
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 3: And sometimes kids will be simple as I feel warm,

926
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, my heart feels bigger, or however they want

927
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 3: to describe it, or however they describe it in their body.

928
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 3: But you know, okay, once we know what safe feels like,

929
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 3: how does it feel when we don't feel safe? And

930
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 3: there's a continuum from safe to unsafe. It's say, you know,

931
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: safe fun to be scared, because sometimes it's fun to

932
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 3: be scared, like yesterday, you know, my nerves were because

933
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 3: I was about to do something exciting and scary. And

934
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: then there's risking on purpose, you know, standing up in

935
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 3: front of a you know, for some people public speaking

936
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: is the worst thing that they could ever do, right,

937
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 3: but they might have to do it because that's their

938
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 3: job or that's something that they really want to do,

939
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 3: So you risk on purpose, and then there's unsafe. So

940
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 3: we teach kids that some things are fun and we

941
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 3: do them anyway. Some things we have to do because

942
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 3: we might have a school presentation to do. All of

943
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 3: those feelings are valid, but if we can understand which

944
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 3: ones they are, then we're much safer.

945
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: As the children get to get older. What's the next

946
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: stage that you need to provide further tools? What age

947
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: are you're looking at?

948
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so these are like I said, scaffolding, we ad

949
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 3: So I would then also add into that safety network,

950
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 3: who are the five people that you feel safest with,

951
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 3: who will listen to you, believe you, and do something

952
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: if you tell them, Because, sadly, in Australia, only one

953
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: in three adults believe children when they tell them that

954
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 3: they've been sexually abused.

955
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: Run that figure by me again.

956
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: One in three adult Australians believe children.

957
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: Well, it saddens me. It doesn't surprise me.

958
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 3: No, And so with regards to that, you know, if

959
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 3: a child and here's the sad thing that I have

960
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 3: from my perspective of being an interviewer and talking to children,

961
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 3: I have to teach children or tell children if the

962
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 3: first person doesn't listen or do anything, you need to

963
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: go to the next person. I'm teaching them persistence through,

964
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 3: don't give up on that first person because a lot

965
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: of the victim survivors. I speak to the first person

966
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 3: they told, told them they were lying. Shut up, We

967
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 3: don't talk about that. They gave them a bad reaction

968
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 3: and they never said a thing again.

969
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,959
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's interesting. So five people like a child

970
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: and what age are we talking here from? Three? Okay?

971
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: Five people that you can trust if there's something wrong.

972
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 3: Or you wouldn't explain it in that full detail. But

973
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 3: who makes you feel safe?

974
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: Okay?

975
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 3: For the little ones, and then as they get to

976
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 3: like school age five or six, you know, okay, who

977
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 3: makes you feel safe and listens to you when you

978
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: feel scared.

979
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: And you give them the understanding that if they feel

980
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: scared or don't feel safe, they can tell this person

981
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: that person, or that you can tell all of them

982
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: or any one of them. How do you explain that, Well,

983
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: you just.

984
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: You ask the child to explain who they feel safe with,

985
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: and then you get them. They get to name who

986
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 3: they feel safe with. We can't tell them that because

987
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 3: we could say, hey, go and speak to uncle.

988
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: Uncle could do the offender, yeah, and he could.

989
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 3: Be the one who's abusing them all about to abuse them.

990
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 3: So we don't want to give them the idea, you know,

991
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: we might suggest people, but ultimately it's their choice. And

992
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: then as an adult or parent, we then go on

993
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 3: to speak to that person say, hey, we're teaching body

994
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 3: safety in our family and these are the lessons we're

995
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 3: talking about. And if my little girl comes to you

996
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 3: and says, hey, I don't feel safe around this person

997
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 3: or this at this moment, you know they've named you

998
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 3: as a safe person. Your job as a safe person

999
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 3: is to listen to them and help them and do

1000
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 3: something about it.

1001
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's twofold. It's giving the kid and then

1002
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: giving the heads up to the people safe person. Ye okay,

1003
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: what next?

1004
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 3: So the other things is private versus public, as we've discussed,

1005
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 3: and then secrets versus surprises. So secrets are you know,

1006
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 3: as we know, predators and pedophiles will use secrets as

1007
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 3: a way to keep their secret that.

1008
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: This is our little secret secret.

1009
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 3: Don't tell anyone. If you tell anyone, I'll go to jail.

1010
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 3: If you tell anyone, the police will take you away,

1011
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 3: Child Protection will take you away. So we need to

1012
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 3: help children understand that secrets or safe secrets, for instance,

1013
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 3: are you know secrets are about Hey, what what are

1014
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 3: we getting dad for Christmas?

1015
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: It's a secret.

1016
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 3: We're gonna we're going to get him this. There's a

1017
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 3: timeline involved, it ends it does you know? Avenge And

1018
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,919
Speaker 3: it's a happy secret, right, secrets should be happy. Yeah,

1019
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 3: it might be, oh, guess what, mum's having a baby,

1020
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 3: but we're not telling anyone right now.

1021
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: So you're breaking it down between the secret or the

1022
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 1: happy secret.

1023
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the safe secret and then you know,

1024
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 3: and surprises basically so and then an unsafe secret. Basically

1025
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 3: some their early warning signs are being triggered because something's

1026
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 3: happening that they don't want to. They feel unsafe in

1027
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 3: that secret. And also there's no timeline involved it. Can

1028
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 3: you know, they don't get to choose when that ends.

1029
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 3: Does that make sense?

1030
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does make sense. It does make sense.

1031
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 3: And then that's just some of the things that we teach.

1032
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 3: But those three lessons or four lessons are really important.

1033
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm just looking back at what the bad parents.

1034
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: No, you weren't you?

1035
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: Like everything that there's been being said. It makes so

1036
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: much sense when you explain it.

1037
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 2: And it's not hard.

1038
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: It's not hard. It's not hard. It's just it's basic parenting,

1039
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 1: isn't it?

1040
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 3: Well, it is, but you know, we've got to remember

1041
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: that we come from generations where no one talked and

1042
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,439
Speaker 3: no one spoke, and you've seen or not heard, don't

1043
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 3: We don't backchat, we don't talk to our parents. We

1044
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: don't say anything even you know, having conversations with my

1045
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: parents now, like they go, they're still in that generation

1046
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 3: where they don't talk about their feelings and emotions. So

1047
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 3: it's no wonder we are struggling with these lessons.

1048
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 1: And some of the saddest stories I've heard on here

1049
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: on the podcast is where people have been abused and

1050
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: they've gone to get help and the person doesn't help them,

1051
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: doesn't believe them, and then they've just yeah they're lost.

1052
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does more damage.

1053
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 3: And I had someone to share with me the other

1054
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 3: day that they were sexually abused by an uncle and

1055
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 3: when they told their mum, they got slapped across the

1056
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 3: face and told never, we do not talk about this

1057
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 3: ever again. Like honestly, that's the type of thing you

1058
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 3: were talking about at the start, about why can't we

1059
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: charge people with that? But you know the other thing

1060
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 3: that not being able to share that with a safe

1061
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 3: adult or with someone with the person that's meant to

1062
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: protect you and being basically told to shut up and

1063
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 3: don't say anything. Is that negligence and that neglect basically

1064
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 3: does more damage than the abuse of I could.

1065
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,760
Speaker 1: Well when I said some of the sayest moments, that's okay,

1066
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: I understand. There's an the fender, there's a victim, and

1067
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: then the poor victim, a child, is asking for help

1068
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: from someone they thought they could trust, and they get

1069
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 1: a response like that, You just articulate.

1070
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 3: Them, and then what happens is they never say it again.

1071
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 3: They go through life, they struggle, and they never get

1072
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 3: a real chance to heal. And I probably flew through

1073
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 3: that stat but twenty four years is the average of

1074
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: first disclosure. They might have tried to tell someone at

1075
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 3: the start, but then they were rebutted, minimized, told to

1076
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 3: go away, and so they've never said it again and

1077
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 3: they go through their life like that.

1078
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: Doesn't that say a lot about the impact of the

1079
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: offense too. There's not many offenses that you carry as

1080
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: a victim of an offense at twenty four years later,

1081
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: that's when you have the courage to come out and

1082
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: talk about or not courage, but that's when you're ready

1083
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: to talk about it.

1084
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 3: How it just minutes longer. Ninety nine percent of men

1085
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 3: never tell anyone not good figures.

1086
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: So we're going to try and make a difference. Look,

1087
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: we might we might take a break now when we

1088
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: get back, I want to talk about the adolescent years

1089
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: because that's yeah, that's a whole new ball game too,

1090
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: isn't it Like the world is completely completely changed for

1091
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: adolescents and there's a lot that can be learned there.

1092
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: And we're also going to talk about what happens if

1093
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 1: you suspect someone is a child who's been sexually abused,

1094
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: or you suspect someone, and what happens if you actually

1095
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: take it to the police, and what the processes are.

1096
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,280
Speaker 1: So I look, I'm sitting here sort the gobsmack thinking

1097
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: this shit. But there's so much that you've explained, and

1098
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: I look back. That's why I'm sort of questioning my

1099
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 1: own parenthood in that I'm thinking that would have been

1100
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: such a safe thing and something good to provide children with.

1101
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, and the good thing is once you hear it,

1102
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 3: and once you know it, you can't unknow it, so

1103
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 3: you can make the changes as you go forward.

1104
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: And look, I asked this question before we take a break.

1105
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: You've got so many people reaching out to you. Are

1106
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 1: you getting overwhelmed with it?

1107
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: Sometimes?

1108
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to take breaks, but it's an honor

1109
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: to be that person that people.

1110
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: Trust with this.

1111
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, it's very impressive how you're educating us,

1112
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: and I have people that are listening and getting the

1113
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: same thing that I'm getting from this. It's just a

1114
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: very practical way of approaching the problem that impacts on

1115
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: so many people. Let's have a break and we'll be

1116
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: back shortly.

1117
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 2: Fantastic cheers.