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Speaker 1: This episode contains adult themes and references to violence. This

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Speaker 1: podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas

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Speaker 1: and The Australian. My name is Headley Thomas and my podcast,

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Speaker 1: Shandy's Story revealed shocking failures by scientists at the Queensland

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Speaker 1: government's DNA testing laboratory. It has been nearly two years

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Speaker 1: since the last episode of our sequel podcast, Shandy's Legacy,

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Speaker 1: was released. It has recently come to light that the

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Speaker 1: serious issues plague in Queensland's Dear Lab have continued. We

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Speaker 1: know this as a result of the release of two

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Speaker 1: very damning and concerning reports into the lab and its operations.

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Speaker 1: Those reports, after a new investigation into the lab by

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Speaker 1: doctor Kirsty Wright and fellow DNA expert doctor Bruce Badoli,

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Speaker 1: were released in August twenty twenty five. Here's how TV

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Speaker 1: news reporters covered the immediate fallout.

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Speaker 2: Despite two Royal Commission style inquiries, Queensland's DNA lab is

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Speaker 2: still flawed and still failing the State and Your report.

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Speaker 3: Has found rapists and child abusers could be roaming amongst us,

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Speaker 3: and killers are likely getting away with murder.

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Speaker 4: There was weekly contamination in the lab shortcuts and testing

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Speaker 4: delays have continued to get worse. It now takes four

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Speaker 4: hundred and twenty days to process results from major crime cases,

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Speaker 4: more than a year to test rape kits, a process

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Speaker 4: that takes five to ten in other states, and the

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Speaker 4: backlog of testing could take six years to clear.

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Speaker 5: These are victims, these are defendants, These are people's lives.

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Speaker 1: While that's been going on, Shandy Blackburn's former boyfriend, John

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Speaker 1: Perros has continued his quest to sue me and my

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Speaker 1: employer and Shunner Blackburn, Shandy's sister, for defamation. John's legal

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Speaker 1: case objected to a particular episode of The Shandy Story podcast.

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Speaker 6: The matter has.

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Speaker 1: Been heard in the Queensland Supreme Court and we are

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Speaker 1: strenuously defending our journalism and Shunner. Shandy's mum, Vicky Blackburn,

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Speaker 1: has been continuing her courageous fight for justice for victims

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Speaker 1: of crime. Vicky has an incredible capacity to remain patient

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Speaker 1: thirteen years after her daughter's savage murder, and to always

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Speaker 1: think about the needs of other victims and their families

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Speaker 1: despite her own circumstances. Do you still hold hope that

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Speaker 1: Shandy's killer will be brought to justice, convicted and thrown

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Speaker 1: into prison, hopefully for the rest of his natural life.

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Speaker 7: Yes, of course we do.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot to talk about there too, But where

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Speaker 1: does it all leave us? Despite two major public inquiries,

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Speaker 1: the first one by the retired Queensland judge Walter Soffronoff

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Speaker 1: and the second by Annabelle Bennett, are we any closer

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Speaker 1: to solving Shandy's horrific murder. We're going to unpack each

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Speaker 1: of these issues and others in several new episodes of

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Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy, beginning with this one. The ongoing DNA lab

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Speaker 1: calamity is our starting point now for these new and

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Speaker 1: updating episodes. In late twenty I'm talking to Kirsty at

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Speaker 1: length again. We met at my home on Brisbane's rural

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Speaker 1: outskirts and began our first interview in a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: How would you describe the performance of the lab in

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Speaker 1: the two years since we spoke about this.

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Speaker 5: I don't understand how a lab can continue to operate

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Speaker 5: in such a reckless manner. Real harm has been caused

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Speaker 5: over the last two and a half years. What myself

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Speaker 5: and the review team found is that the issues that

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Speaker 5: were found in the first and second inquiry continued shortcuts,

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Speaker 5: compromises in quality, unreliable results, the deception of the police

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Speaker 5: and the courts. Backlogs really just got to a point

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Speaker 5: where are out of control. It appears as though no

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Speaker 5: lessons were learnt. Even during the Second Inquiry, where it

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Speaker 5: appeared the lab was being fixed, it wasn't.

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Speaker 8: It was all a facade.

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Speaker 5: The lab was aware that they were providing unreliable results.

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Speaker 1: It's very hard for people who don't work in the

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Speaker 1: lab to understand that level of recklessness.

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Speaker 6: The scale of this disaster.

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Speaker 1: Was so alarming back when you and I were first

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Speaker 1: uncovering it in Shandy story, and then through Walter Soffrooff's inquiry,

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Speaker 1: and then through the second inquiry a year later.

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Speaker 6: By Annabelle Bettett.

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Speaker 1: How is it possible that scientists, your contemporaries, people with

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Speaker 1: whom you've perhaps even shared microscopes with over the years,

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Speaker 1: can have allowed this to continue.

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Speaker 8: I was surprised, Eddley.

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Speaker 5: I thought going into this review, I might find one

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Speaker 5: or two minor issues that we need to try to address.

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Speaker 5: But I had no idea what we're walking into because

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Speaker 5: I had been excluded from the reforms from those last

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Speaker 5: two and a half years I'm still at a loss

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Speaker 5: to understand knowing the impact that the lab has had

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Speaker 5: on the victims, on the criminal justice system, on the police,

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Speaker 5: on the community trust.

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Speaker 1: Did you imagine you'd be saying those things again after

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Speaker 1: the millions of dollars spent uncovering the problems in the

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Speaker 1: first place.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 5: And during the review when it became apparent that nothing

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Speaker 5: had changed, were very careful to get a lot of

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Speaker 5: evidence to demonstrate that we needed to be really sure,

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Speaker 5: and that included interviews with staff members. Some of those

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Speaker 5: were just screaming for help they could see what was happening.

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Speaker 5: One of those staff members said that she hopes that

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Speaker 5: her or none of her family members are ever raped

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Speaker 5: in Queensland because she wouldn't want her samples coming to Queensland.

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Speaker 5: And there was a moment headly, we're just that in

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Speaker 5: that interview and cried because that was the moment when

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Speaker 5: I realized all the work that you had done, the

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Speaker 5: Blackburns had done, I had done, all the money that

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Speaker 5: had been pumped into this lab, it had been for nothing,

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Speaker 5: for absolutely nothing.

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Speaker 1: For most listeners, it's probably two years since they last

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Speaker 1: listened to episodes of Shandy's legacy and some of the

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Speaker 1: things that we'll be talking about now are complex, so

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Speaker 1: we will briefly recap on events and then move on

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Speaker 1: to the key developments concerning the lab over the past

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Speaker 1: two years. In twenty twenty two, after all the shocking

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Speaker 1: revelations in Shandy story, there was a multimillion dollar Roll

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Speaker 1: Commission style inquiry into forensic DNA testing in Queensland. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Wright's concerns that the lab had been badly failing victims

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Speaker 1: of crime for many years were vindicated by that inquiry.

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Speaker 1: Walter Sofronoff's findings documented scientific failure and fraud on a

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Speaker 1: vast scale, affecting many thousands of criminal cases. The Sofronoff

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Speaker 1: inquiry made one hundred and twenty six recommendations for significant

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Speaker 1: reforms in forensic services, and all of those recommendations were

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Speaker 1: accepted by the Queensland government. After this, twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: loomed as the year of big change for the lab.

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Speaker 1: It underwent a lot of reform, including to its leadership,

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Speaker 1: and in late May twenty twenty three, the then government

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Speaker 1: rebranded it as Forensic Science Queensland. Meanwhile, Kirsty kept reviewing

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Speaker 1: documents that were tendered during the Sofronoff inquiry, and that's

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Speaker 1: when she made a shocking discovery about something called Project

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Speaker 1: thirteen in a nutshell to show that an automated DNA

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Speaker 1: extraction method used by the Lab to process crime scene

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Speaker 1: samples had very low success rates in recovering DNA, and

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Speaker 1: this fact was known to the lab's former management. This

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Speaker 1: is how I explained Project thirteen in episode ten of

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Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy. It sounds like something out of a sci

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Speaker 1: fi movie or a political thriller. Put simply, it was

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Speaker 1: a project that set out to test an innovative new

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Speaker 1: method of extracting DNA from crime scene samples. The new

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Speaker 1: method used so called robots to extract DNA rather than

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Speaker 1: relying on scientists laboriously doing it by hand. Crucially, this

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Speaker 1: significantly speeded up the DNA testing process. The method was

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Speaker 1: given the green light and it started being used in

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Speaker 1: Queensland in October two thousand and seven. It was, Kirsty says,

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Speaker 1: the bigger change in the government run Lab's history, and

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Speaker 1: it came at a time when the Lab was under

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Speaker 1: enormous political and public pressure to clear a huge and

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Speaker 1: growing backlog of samples awaiting DNA testing. One of the

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Speaker 1: major problems was the extraction method had not been scientifically

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Speaker 1: validated at any time. It recovered less DNA than comparable

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Speaker 1: manual methods, and it was one hundred times less sensitive.

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Speaker 1: It also was causing the contamination of samples. Doctor Wright

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Speaker 1: found that the lab had introduced this new method despite

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Speaker 1: knowing of these catastrophic failings. The practical effect of it

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Speaker 1: was that evidence available for criminal trials was compromised. While

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Speaker 1: the so called robots or the automatic extraction method was

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Speaker 1: in use during a nine year period which included Shandy's

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Speaker 1: murder in twenty thirteen, convictions that would otherwise have been

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Speaker 1: secured were not because of this fundamental problem at the

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Speaker 1: heart of the lab. Here's another reminder from episode ten.

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Speaker 1: Kirsty believes this is ground zero for the failures in

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Speaker 1: Shandy's case.

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Speaker 6: She believes this is why.

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Speaker 1: No DNA was showing up in samples when it should

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Speaker 1: have been, why no forensic trace was found of Shandy's killer,

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Speaker 1: and why many other crimes have not been solved. Surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: the issues relating to Project thirteen were not investigated during

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Speaker 1: Walter Soffronoff's inquiry because they were not identified by the

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Speaker 1: inquiry team itself, and crucially they were not brought to

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Speaker 1: the inquiry's attention by an independent DNA expert who had

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Speaker 1: been asked to advise that inquiry. That expert was doctor

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Wilson Wilde. After my disclosures out these issues in

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Speaker 1: Shandy's legacy in September twenty twenty three, the government buckle

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Speaker 1: to intense pressure and a rare second Commission of Inquiry

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Speaker 1: was established to examine the automated DNA extraction concerns. I

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Speaker 1: spoke to Christin Amiot, audio producer of the Australians podcast

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Speaker 1: The Front, about this at the time the second inquiry

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Speaker 1: was announced.

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Speaker 9: They had to act again because doctor Kirsey Wright is

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Speaker 9: relentless and we weren't going away either. And in the

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Speaker 9: run up to a state election, I think the Premier,

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Speaker 9: Anastasia Palashay and the Health Minister Shannon Fenterman just saw

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Speaker 9: the writing on the wall. This was going to be

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Speaker 9: potentially a law and order disaster.

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Speaker 1: Now. The lightning fast second Inquiry was held over just

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Speaker 1: six weeks in October and November twenty twenty three. The

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Speaker 1: then government decided that it would not have been appropriate

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Speaker 1: for Walter soffrinoff to conduct that second inquiry, so a

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Speaker 1: new Commissioner, Doctor Annabel Bennett, of the Federal Court of

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Speaker 1: Australia until her retirement, was appointed. In the most recent

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Speaker 1: episode of Shandy's Legacy, back in November twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the findings of that second inquiry and

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Speaker 1: Project thirteen. Here's the then Queensland Health Minister Shannon Fenterman,

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Speaker 1: who announced the second Inquiry's findings at a press conference

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Speaker 1: that I attended in Brisbane.

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Speaker 10: All of doctor Kirsty Wright's concerns about Project thirteen were valid.

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Speaker 10: The Commission of Inquiry found that Project thirteen was fundamentally flawed.

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Speaker 10: The DNA Lab really did away with scientifically sound methodology.

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Speaker 10: They sacrificed that for speed. It should never have occurred.

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Speaker 10: It was never ever scientifically validated. There were no proper

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Speaker 10: processes in place. The Commission of Inquiry also found that

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Speaker 10: doctor Wilson Wilde did not draw attention to the deficiencies

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Speaker 10: of Project thirteen in her evidence before the first Commission

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Speaker 10: of Inquiry. One consequence clearly of that failure was the

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Speaker 10: need for this second Commission of inquiry. However, Commissioner Bennett

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Speaker 10: did not find that doctor Wilson wild did that deliberately

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Speaker 10: and found without contradiction that doctor Wilson Wilde was making

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Speaker 10: very good progress in implementing all of the recommendations from

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Speaker 10: the first Commission of Inquiry, including major overhauls to the

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Speaker 10: culture of the lab and the processes. And importantly, Commissioner

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Speaker 10: Bennett also found that there was no evidence that the

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Speaker 10: public should not have confidence in the lab and the

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Speaker 10: work that is happening there.

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Speaker 11: Now.

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Speaker 10: There are two recommendations. We accept both of them. That

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Speaker 10: is that cases between two thousand and seven and twenty

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Speaker 10: and sixteen when this automated DNA extraction method was in place,

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Speaker 10: will be reviewed, so that's up to one hundred and

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Speaker 10: three thousand samples that may need to be retested. Of course,

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Speaker 10: the second recommendation is that they should all form part

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Speaker 10: of the historical case review that is already underway, where

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Speaker 10: we have panels of legal experts and police reviewing cases.

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Speaker 10: So not all of these samples will need retesting. I

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Speaker 10: do believe that Queenslanders should continue to have faith in

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Speaker 10: the lab and have faith in our criminal justice process.

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Speaker 10: There will be delays in DNA testing, but I think

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Speaker 10: it is so important in the interest of Justice that

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Speaker 10: we reviewal of those cases and those samples.

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Speaker 1: Now you heard Shannon Fentman refer to doctor Lindsay Wilson

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Speaker 1: wild and you'll remember her name and her voice from

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Speaker 1: earlier episodes. Doctor Wilson Wilde had given evidence to the

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Speaker 1: first inquiry in twenty twenty two as an independent DnaA expert.

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Speaker 6: Back then she.

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Speaker 1: Was still the Director of Forensic Science in South Australia,

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Speaker 1: but she went on to become the interim Chief Executive

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Speaker 1: Officer of what is now Forensic Science Queensland in January

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, after Walter Sofronoff's inquiry. When Shannon Fentaman

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Speaker 1: announced the findings of the second inquiry, I asked her

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Speaker 1: a question about doctor Wilson Wilde's appointment when Dr Wilsavold

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Speaker 1: and being appointed to run the whole lab and scientific services.

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Speaker 1: If you had known that she'd missed this biguse was

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Speaker 1: asked in the lab's history last year.

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Speaker 10: The evidence in the findings of this Commission of Inquiry

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Speaker 10: is that she didn't do that in a way to

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Speaker 10: deliberately mislead. So even though there's a finding here that

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Speaker 10: doctor Wilson Wilde did not provide that information about the

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Speaker 10: Project thirteen being fundamentally flawed, particularly in relation to the

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Speaker 10: yield of DNA. That was not a deliberate decision.

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Speaker 1: Now to the findings of the second inquiry, the lab

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Speaker 1: appeared to be getting on with its routine operations as

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Speaker 1: well as implementing the recommendations from both inquiries, and we

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Speaker 1: got on with other work, including true crime investigations for

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Speaker 1: the unsolved murders of other women such as Bromwyn Winfield

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Speaker 1: for the Bromwin series. Forensic Science Queensland was gifted very

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Speaker 1: strong and independent status. It was the beneficiary of new

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Speaker 1: legislation that was designed to ensure high quality, reliable and

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Speaker 1: impartial forensic services. At around this time. We're now into

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Speaker 1: July twenty twenty four. Doctor Wilson Wilde spoke to the

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Speaker 1: ABC's state Line program.

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Speaker 12: This is an achievable task to turn this lab around,

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Speaker 12: and so I'm confident that the work that we're putting

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Speaker 12: out ours of the highest quality.

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Speaker 1: Having been the interim or acting director for some months,

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Speaker 1: doctor Wilson Wilde was appointed to the role on a

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Speaker 1: permanent basis in September twenty twenty four. That appointment was

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Speaker 1: announced just before the then Labor government entered what's called

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Speaker 1: caretaker mode ahead of the Queensland state election, and a

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Speaker 1: ministerial media statement described her as being widely regarded as

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Speaker 1: one of the leading forensic scientists in Australia and New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: The statement said that doctor Wilson Wilde's appointment was made

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Speaker 1: following an open and international selection process. We do not

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Speaker 1: know the ins and outs of all of that, but

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Speaker 1: we did find her appointment as director controversial given the

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Speaker 1: questions that were squarely raised about her integrity and conduct

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Speaker 1: before and during the second Commission of Inquiry. My colleague

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Speaker 1: Claire Harvey summarized the situation well in the last episode

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Speaker 1: of Shandy's Legacy in November.

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Speaker 13: You sort of wonder about the political calculation here for

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Speaker 13: the government. They've got to balance the fact that Dr

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Speaker 13: Wilson wild has effectively been criticized in some ways in

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Speaker 13: this report, for example by the Commissioner accepting that she

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Speaker 13: didn't tell Waltersofenoff's inquiry in any adequate way about the

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Speaker 13: failings of Project thirteen. But the government has to decide.

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Speaker 13: So we've got someone in charge of this lab who

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Speaker 13: has made a mistake, who has refused to admit to

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Speaker 13: her mistake and has got herself into an embarrassing situation

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Speaker 13: and we've had to go through the ordeal of another

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Speaker 13: commission of inquiry. But is she making ongoing mistakes? Are

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Speaker 13: victims of crime at ongoing risk because of problems within

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Speaker 13: this laboratory? Or is she an efficient enough manager that

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Speaker 13: she'll sort out the issues? And maybe she's been chastened

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Speaker 13: by this experience.

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Speaker 1: Would it have been far better to have a fresh

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Speaker 1: start in terms of leadership of that lab Doctor Kirsty

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Speaker 1: Wright certainly thought so.

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Speaker 8: The failure or multiple failures of Lindsay every step of

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Speaker 8: the way in relation to Projects thirteen during the first

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Speaker 8: inquiry and how she handled it afterwards, It's not just

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Speaker 8: one failure, it's many, many, many failures. We simply don't

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Speaker 8: know what's going to happen behind closed doors moving forward.

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Speaker 8: I was lucky that I picked this up. It definitely

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Speaker 8: leaves me with question marks over all of the decisions

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Speaker 8: and all of the actions that Lindsay makes. And what

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Speaker 8: I found quite concerning is her unwillingness to accept that

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Speaker 8: she'd made mistakes.

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Speaker 1: Through twenty twenty four, as I got busy with the

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Speaker 1: Bromwin investigations. The Queensland Courts were tackling head on the

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Speaker 1: impact of lengthy DNA testing delays in the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 1: The Supreme Courts Justice David Madis delivered this solemn message

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Speaker 1: had an information session for lawyers in June twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 14: Face the reality, and that is that the DNA is

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Speaker 14: an enormous problem in Queensland and the way things are,

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Speaker 14: if we continue as we are, they will never catch up.

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Speaker 6: That is not a justice system.

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Speaker 7: We have to address that problem.

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Speaker 1: And on October tenth, twenty twenty four, in Mackay, the

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Speaker 1: city in Queensland where Shandy had been brutally murdered eleven

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Speaker 1: years earlier, the then opposition leader David Christifouley made an

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Speaker 1: election commitment that his new government would begin a review

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Speaker 1: of what he called Labour's DNA lab debarcle. He promised that,

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Speaker 1: if elected, this commitment would be delivered on in the

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Speaker 1: first week of government. Just over two weeks later, on

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Speaker 1: October twenty six, the Liberal National Party won the state

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Speaker 1: election and David christifully became the Premier of Queensland.

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Speaker 15: Live from Brisbane, I'm David Spears. Welcome to Insights Queensland

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Speaker 15: votes for change after nine years of labor rule. Now

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Speaker 15: David CHRISTA Foley has led the LNP back into power.

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Speaker 1: The new Premiere was true to his word. In his

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Speaker 1: government's first week of office. Kirsty Wright and former FBI

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Speaker 1: expert doctor Bruce Badowlei were appointed to undertake an assessment

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Speaker 1: of testing services and reforms across forensic science Queensland. They

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Speaker 1: led two separate review teams. But in June of this

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Speaker 1: year twenty twenty five, before doctor Kirsty Wright and Bruce

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Speaker 1: Badowley had completed their reports, serious problems in the lab

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Speaker 1: were coming to light.

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Speaker 12: Paternity testing will be shut down at the state run

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Speaker 12: forensic lab after more shocking failures were discovered. The Attorney

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Speaker 12: General says a child rape case was.

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Speaker 1: Bungal then spectacularly. On June twenty twenty twenty five, the

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Speaker 1: Queensland Attorney General Deb Frecklington announced that the director of

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Speaker 1: the lab, Dr Wilson Wilde, had been suspended after contamination

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Speaker 1: issues were found. There was breaking news on a Friday

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Speaker 1: night in June twenty twenty five, The ABC.

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Speaker 3: Reported Attorney General Dev Frecklington announce she'd immediately suspended the

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Speaker 3: director of FSQ doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde pending a show

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Speaker 3: cause notice for removal. Miss Frecklington says she took the

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Speaker 3: action following advice.

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Speaker 1: Revelation that doctor Lindsey Wilson wild had been abruptly stood

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Speaker 1: down as Head of Forensic Science Queensland or FSQ appeared

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Speaker 1: on my smartphone.

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Speaker 6: I was out with friends in.

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Speaker 1: Southport, an hour's drive south of the lab. I turned

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Speaker 1: to the person nearest and showed her the headlines. By coincidence,

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Speaker 1: it was doctor Kirsty Wright. We were at a cocktail

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Speaker 1: party to mark an exhibition of paintings and portraits by

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Speaker 1: our talented lawyer friend, Jason Muricami, a dedicated campaigner for

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Speaker 1: DNA reform. Kirsty must have had an idea of what

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Speaker 1: was looming for the troubled lab and for doctor Lindsay

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Speaker 1: Wilson wild its leader since early twenty twenty three, but

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Speaker 1: Kirsty had not shared a hint of it when we

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Speaker 1: were chatting before the headline started coming out. She takes

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Speaker 1: her obligations around confidentiality seriously.

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Speaker 6: She would be a good poker player.

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Speaker 1: While few people predicted the end coming quite so dramatically,

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Speaker 1: it was obvious to insiders that doctor Wilson Wilde's leadership

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Speaker 1: was being subjected to forensic scrutiny and being found wanting.

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Speaker 1: For several months, Kirsty and fellow DNA expert doctor Bruce

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Speaker 1: Badoli from the United States had been painstakingly investigating the

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Speaker 1: lab's performance. As Kirsty and doctor Bidoley analyzed lab documents

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Speaker 1: and spoke to whistleblowing scientists in the first half of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, the serious problems that were plaguing the

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Speaker 1: lab became all too obvious, serious problems which were not

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Speaker 1: being properly addressed or even disclosed by doctor Lindsay Wilson Wilde,

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Speaker 1: according to the expert investigations, and this is hard to

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Speaker 1: fathom given the lessons of not one but two public

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Speaker 1: inquiries highlighting the crew social requirement of the lab to

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Speaker 1: be transparent and responsive about problems and their remedies. The

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Speaker 1: era of hiding and burying failures in that lab should

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Speaker 1: have been over with Walter Sofronoff's excoriating findings at the

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Speaker 1: end of twenty twenty two, but the investigations by Kirsty

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Speaker 1: right showed that during the new leadership, internal audits which

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Speaker 1: came up with alarming results were being hidden. Management decided

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Speaker 1: that the internal reports should not be distributed, published, or

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Speaker 1: communicated to general staff. Kirsty and two other scientists who

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Speaker 1: were helping with her investigations found that this failure to

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Speaker 1: disclose the documents to other reporting scientists in the lab

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Speaker 1: meant they couldn't warn police and courts about the limitations

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Speaker 1: and even the unreliability of the evidence that they were

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Speaker 1: presenting under oath. And all this despite the state's Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court making a special direction in July twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: a direction which specifically required experts to disclose any limitations

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Speaker 1: or uncertainty affecting the reliability of results, including the scientific

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Speaker 1: validity of expert evidence. The tipping point for doctor Lindsey

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Speaker 1: Wilson Wilde, the final straw before her ousting on this

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Speaker 1: evening in June twenty twenty five, came after the investigation

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Speaker 1: teams discovered the extent and seriousness of contamination in the lab.

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Speaker 1: Several scientists had quietly told Kirsty about the contamination during

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Speaker 1: her investigations in mid May twenty twenty five, and those

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Speaker 1: scientists had expressed real concern to her about the likely

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Speaker 1: impact of the contamination on police investigations and cases. This

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Speaker 1: was not one off contamination that the scientists were disclosing

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Speaker 1: to Kirsty, not one or two isolated cases. After further investigation,

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Speaker 1: Kirsty and doctor Bruce Badoli discovered what they described as

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Speaker 1: systemic contamination. Here's Michelle Jensen of seven News in late

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Speaker 1: June twenty twenty five, and she spoke to Vicky Blackburn

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Speaker 1: for this report.

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Speaker 16: Two commissions of inquiry, one case of deja vu.

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Speaker 7: I'm kind of still in shock that it all happened again.

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Speaker 16: Twelve years and no justice for Shandy Blackburn. Her Machai

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Speaker 16: murder is one of thousands of cases failed by problems

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Speaker 16: at Forensic Science Queensland. Her samples are still in a

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Speaker 16: queue for retesting. As a lab that serves the criminal

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Speaker 16: justice system grinds to a sudden halt, only working on

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Speaker 16: urgent cases for seven days, its director suspended by the

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Speaker 16: Attorney General. A contamination issue was uncovered. What it is

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Speaker 16: and its impacts on cases is unclear.

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Speaker 17: After everything we've been through, we thought we were way

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Speaker 17: past this being able to happen again.

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Speaker 7: Very disappointed for victims.

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Speaker 16: In May, the government started sending samples overseas to clear

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Speaker 16: a backlog of ten thousand major crime samples. Yesterday, all

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Speaker 16: routine testing stopped in.

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Speaker 1: A laboratory, requiring specific rigor to accurately advise police and

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Speaker 1: the courts. The issue of contamination is extremely troubling. There

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Speaker 1: needed to be prompting and urging from the review teams

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Speaker 1: for the lab to finally do the right thing in

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Speaker 1: this space after its very sorry history. It is almost

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Speaker 1: mind boggling that the lab did not proactively take these

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Speaker 1: steps at the very first sign of contamination.

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Speaker 16: Doctor Wilson Wilde is now on a deadline to respond

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Speaker 16: to a show cause notice for removal if she wants

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Speaker 16: to stay in the top job.

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Speaker 1: She instructed her lawyers to write to the government and

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Speaker 1: give a detailed explanation of her actions and her leadership.

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Speaker 1: That document was tabled in State Parliament and you'll hear

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Speaker 1: some of it as read by a voice actor later

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Speaker 1: in this episode.

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Speaker 16: She has less than a week as victim's wait again.

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Speaker 1: And then on August four, twenty twenty five, doctor Kirsty

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Speaker 1: Wright's new bombshell review report into forensic science Queensland was

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Speaker 1: publicly released.

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Speaker 6: This is None Men's Queensland with Melissa.

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Speaker 7: Darnes Good Evening.

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Speaker 18: Violent and sexual offenders are tonight going unpunished amid an

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Speaker 18: enormous backlog of testing at the state's forensics lab, and

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00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 18: worse still, a new inquiry and the year's long debarcle

440
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 18: has uncovered the lab is now at a critical point

441
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 18: of failure.

442
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: On the same day her report was revealed, the government

443
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: announced a DNA review expert team to overhaul forensic operations

444
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: in Queensland, led by the former New South Wales Police

445
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: Commissioner Mick Fuller.

446
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 19: This disastrous and it doesn't need to be because other

447
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 19: labs aren't like this.

448
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: The systemic contamination was alarming to doctor Bedali and doctor Wright.

449
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: I asked Kirsty to read from the contamination section of

450
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: her long and scathing report for the Queensland Government and

451
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 1: the state's Attorney General deb Frecklington.

452
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 5: Systemic DNA contamination within a forensic biology laboratory is one

453
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 5: of the greatest risks to the accuracy and reliability of evidence.

454
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 5: Results should not be released if contamination is detected. DNA

455
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 5: contamination is detected weekly at Forensic Science Queensland, which is

456
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 5: highly unacceptable. The DNA review has found that since October

457
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 5: twenty twenty three, Forensic Science Queensland presented unreliable DNA evidence

458
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 5: using these methods to the police, who then use that

459
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 5: before the courts.

460
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: Despite having known of systemic contamination, the lab's managers responded

461
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: with neither urgency nor transparency, even though the risks of

462
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: miscarriages of justice were all too obvious. There was evidence

463
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: of what is known as sample to sample contamination. That

464
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: means the DNA from one sample contaminating another sample. It's

465
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: a grave risk for crime scene evidence and subsequent criminal prosecutions.

466
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: Of greatest concern is when contamination is regularly detected and

467
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: its source cannot be determined, and that's what was happening

468
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: for much of Lindsay Wilson Wilde's time as leader of

469
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: the lab. Here's Kirsty in one of her recent interviews

470
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: with me.

471
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 5: There had been gross contamination and I mean unbelievable levels

472
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 5: of contamination for the last two years that the lab

473
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 5: knew about.

474
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: When contamination occurs in a DNA lab, processing or testing

475
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: must stop, the source of the contamination must be identified

476
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: quickly and then removed, and then the lab must undergo

477
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: a deep clean. But doctor Wright found that the lab's

478
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: slow motion course of action fell well below best practice now.

479
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: Listeners to Shandy's Legacy episodes from twenty twenty two heard

480
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: evidence from Waltera Soffronoff's inquiry back then about the alarm

481
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: sounded by senior scientist Kylie Rieka over contamination. Kylie Recer

482
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: gave evidence about it, and here's a reminder.

483
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 20: There are some things that you remember quite well. And

484
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 20: I remember leaving w one day because I was so stressed,

485
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 20: because I recall I had said words to the effect

486
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 20: of this is a friends at DNA Lab's worst nightmare

487
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 20: to get cross contamination and samples where you don't really

488
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 20: know where it's coming from.

489
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: Those bad old days were meant to be well behind

490
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: the lab, but the nightmare, as Kylie recad described it,

491
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: was playing out again in twenty twenty five, and this

492
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: time under the new broom. Lindsey Wilson Wilde deb Frecklington,

493
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: as Attorney General and the state's first law officer, responded

494
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: decisively to what she was being told by Kirsty Wright

495
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: and Bruce Bdoley about the systemic contamination and a range

496
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: of other serious problems. Queensland's Premier, David Chris fully spoke

497
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: to journalists about it.

498
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: The Attorney got a briefing yesterday morning, took steps, got advice,

499
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: notified the individual and then notified Queenslanders. So she's working

500
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: through that right now as she found out Queensland has

501
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: found out.

502
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: Dr Wilson Wilde made no comment about her public ousting

503
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: by Deb Frecklington and Premier Chris Afouley.

504
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 3: When asked how long she has to respond to the

505
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: show caused notice for removal, he replied less than a week.

506
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: I have sought an interview with doctor Wilson Wilde. This

507
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: was declined by her. A month after being stood down.

508
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: Doctor Wilson Wilde quit as Director of Forensic Science Queensland.

509
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 21: To me, this failure, the DNA failure, in my mind,

510
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 21: is one of the biggest failures of the justice system nationally,

511
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 21: but if not the world.

512
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 7: It's quite incredible for.

513
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: These new episodes of Shandy's Legacy. I interviewed the Attorney General,

514
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: Deb Frecklington, what can you say about the abrupt standing

515
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: down of the then director, Lindsay Wilson wild.

516
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 21: I issued a show course notice. Not long after that

517
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 21: the former director decided to resign. I am really focused

518
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 21: on the future. We need to make sure that the

519
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 21: best science is taking place. We've acted very swiftly to

520
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 21: change legislation to enable us to appoint the right person

521
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 21: that can get in there and fix the culture at

522
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 21: the lab. And what we have done since then is

523
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 21: we've appointed Mick Fuller.

524
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: Listeners to the Teacher's Pet podcast will recall Mick Fuller

525
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: as the then new South Wales Police Commissioner. He was

526
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 1: absolutely determined in twenty eighteen to help ensure that justice

527
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: would ensue in the case of Chris Dawson for murdering.

528
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 6: His wife Lynn.

529
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: Here is a reminder from episode sixteen of that podcast

530
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: that Teachers Pet Mick Fuller was talking our after he

531
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: sent detectives from Sydney to Queensland to arrest and handcuffed

532
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: Dawson and take him into custody to be charged over

533
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: the murder of Lynn thirty six years earlier.

534
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 19: I've said from the start what is important to me

535
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 19: was just as Bilenette Dawson and her family, and today

536
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 19: is an important step forward in.

537
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 22: That you've become more engaged in this case as the

538
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 22: public interest in it has grown. What does it mean

539
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 22: to you and your detectives to get this result today.

540
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 11: Which important on a number of levels, and a little

541
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 11: bit at the commissioner, You're try and care equally for

542
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 11: all the victims in the state. You and I met

543
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 11: some months ago about this matter and spoke at length

544
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 11: about it, and then the starting point to me was

545
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 11: about trying to thank sure people understood that we did care,

546
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 11: and I had to take some personal responsibility to get

547
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 11: that message out.

548
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 6: You and I both wanted the same.

549
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 11: Thing at the end of the day, which was justice

550
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 11: for Lenet Duson and a family.

551
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: Seven years later, Mick Fuller is living away from his

552
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Sydney based family. He's working hard in Brisbane and coming

553
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: to grips with the dysfunction of a DNA lab that

554
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: has been letting down thousands of victims of crime across

555
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: a vast state for two decades. While he's the farthest

556
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: thing from a scientist, Nick is a bold and strategic

557
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: leader and he has a steerly commitment to deliver justice

558
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: two victims of crime. Surely, after all of the previous debacles,

559
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: the lab has its best chance yet with the backing

560
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: of Deb Frecklington, doctor Kirsty Wright and doctor Bruce Berdoli.

561
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 6: But there is a long way to go.

562
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: The hits for the lab will keep coming for a while.

563
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: The more we look at the DNA debarcle, the more

564
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 2: we realize just how deep the problem is.

565
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: That was the new Premiere David Chris A Foley. He's right,

566
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: the problems are deep and they can't be glossed over.

567
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 1: You are going to hear more very serious revelations in

568
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: this episode and those which follow it, but we believe

569
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: that there are good reasons to be cautiously optimistic about

570
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: where things will be in say two years. Here's Deb

571
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 1: Frecklington and Mick Fuller at a media conference in Brisbane

572
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: just days before this episode aired in early November twenty

573
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: twenty five.

574
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 21: We are standing before you being upfront and honest with

575
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 21: everything that is going on. We're investing money to ensure

576
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 21: that samples are being reviewed in a timely manner. Now

577
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 21: this is important because we have committed to faster access

578
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 21: to justice and ensuring that we fix up Labour's DNA debarcle.

579
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 21: It was just short of twelve months ago that the

580
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 21: Premiere and I announced a review. This was by doctor

581
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 21: Kirsty Wright and doctor Bruce Bdally and was absolutely damning.

582
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 21: These are major issues. We're talking about people who have

583
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 21: been victims of crime. We're talking about people that might

584
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 21: still be wandering around the streets that are rapists. Now

585
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 21: we acted quickly, we appointed Mick Fuller. We are doing

586
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 21: everything we can in the DNA space to ensure that

587
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 21: these rapists get off the streets. We are doubling the

588
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 21: court reporting scientists. That number will go to twenty. We

589
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 21: know that there is more work to do, but I

590
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 21: can tell you we're getting on with the job. I

591
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 21: really do want to thank Mick Fuller for the hard

592
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 21: work he's done in the short period of time.

593
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 19: The backlog was up to four years when I started.

594
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 19: It is unacceptable and so there is a lot of

595
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 19: work to get done. But you can't get that work

596
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 19: done less you've got the scientists trained to do the job. Unfortunately,

597
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 19: every day there's a victim in Queensland and that goes

598
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 19: into the.

599
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 6: Backlog as well.

600
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 19: And there are backlogs in serious crime and in sexual assaults.

601
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 19: There's backlogs around the historical case review. And what we

602
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 19: want to get to is that there's no.

603
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 21: Way we want it done sooner because each sample. You've

604
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 21: got to remember, this is about a victim who is

605
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 21: still being denied justice.

606
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 19: So a big part of that will be the outsourcing

607
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 19: that's funded for two years. At the same time, I

608
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 19: need to make sure that the matters that have been

609
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 19: processed that forensic Science Queensland are being done by the

610
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 19: book and the last thing I'd want to do is

611
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 19: cut corners in terms of being the backlogged down. We

612
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 19: can never have another inquiry.

613
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 21: It is important that we make the highest functioning, best

614
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 21: forensic lab in Australia. That is an ambition that we

615
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 21: don't shy away from.

616
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 19: I know we're keen to get this fixed. I need

617
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 19: to take time at the same time to make sure

618
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 19: it stands up and it's right.

619
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 6: We really hope to see.

620
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 19: Many, many more positive outcomes in the coming months. It's

621
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 19: a lot of work, right, There's a lot of work in.

622
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: That And in an upcoming episode you'll hear evidence of

623
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde's direct knowledge for more than two

624
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: years and her concerns about the reliability of evidence. An

625
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: internal confidential briefing note in March twenty twenty three conveys

626
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: her knowledge of the problems, problems which should have received

627
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,959
Speaker 1: immediate and very careful attention that was soon after she became.

628
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 6: CEO of that lab.

629
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: In our view, this document is damning, But as the

630
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: reviews by doctor Wright and doctor Bidoli found, lab management's

631
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 1: responses were slack and inadequate. Kirsty found that management made

632
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: no recommendations to stop DNA testing to stop taking evidence

633
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: to court for criminal trials. In Kirsty's report, management means

634
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde, but her name does not appear

635
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: in the document on legal advice. Kirsty was told that

636
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: she should not name her I am under no such restraint.

637
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: Dr Wilson Wilde did not warn police of the risk

638
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: of unreliable results of dodgy DNA evidence being presented in

639
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: criminal trials, and if defense lawyers come to appreciate the

640
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: fact that incriminating DNA against a client may be unreliable

641
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: due to systemic contamination in the lab.

642
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 6: There will inevitably be legal challenges.

643
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: Page one hundred and forty seven of Kirsty Wright's report

644
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: includes the paragraph that those defense lawyers will zero in on.

645
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: That paragraph states, as a matter of predictive fact, that

646
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: the scale of the contamination has been so great that

647
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: some crime seeing DNA evidence would have been unknowingly impacted

648
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: by it. One source of DNA contamination is what was

649
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: called environmental contamination, and that is DNA from lab surfaces

650
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: and items which could be transferred to crime seeing evidence. Overall,

651
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: contamination was found in more than half of some one thousand,

652
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: two hundred environmental samples. It is an extraordinarily high number

653
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: and it was rising in frequency over the two years

654
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: that it was being measured to mid twenty twenty five,

655
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: not falling. In one of our interviews, I summarized Kirsey's findings.

656
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 6: About the knowledge of management. As in doctor Wilson.

657
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: Wilde, she was aware that unreliable results were being provided

658
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: to the police and courts from early twenty twenty three.

659
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 6: She was aware the results were so.

660
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: Unreliable that they may have needed to be reviewed and

661
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: retested a later date as part of the historical case review.

662
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: And she must have been aware that these unreliable results

663
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: would have impacted victim's chances at justice and may have

664
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: prevented the apprehension of violent repeat offenders, and that's put

665
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: Queensland communities at risk of harm. The document was written

666
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: in March twenty twenty three. It was an important briefing

667
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: note which demonstrates that doctor Wilson Wilde was well aware

668
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: of the dire situation, but the document was held tightly.

669
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: My colleague Karina Berger is going to drill down into

670
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: this internal document for an upcoming episode. Earlier, you heard

671
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: a TV reporter refer to deja vous in this laboratory,

672
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: a sense of history repeating itself. Here is Walter Soffronoff

673
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: from December twenty twenty two when he was delivering the

674
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: findings of his first inquiry, and he lied the lab's

675
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: then suspended director Kathy Allen.

676
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 23: You don't expect in Australia that a public servant of

677
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 23: the rank of a managing scientist is actually going to

678
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 23: lie to you, just wouldn't credit it.

679
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: Her successor, Doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde, made bold public promises

680
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: to reform the strife torn lab and lead it from ruin.

681
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: She promised first class professionalism and world leading standards of conduct.

682
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: After the widely discredited reign of Kathy Allen, doctor Wilson

683
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: Wilde was lauded by the government and Walter, but many

684
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: listeners must have found this surprising.

685
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 6: I did too.

686
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: Dr Wilson Wilde's conduct as an expert witness at Walter

687
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: Sofronoff's inquiry meant that she should not have been considered

688
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: for the leadership role. In my view, she gave bizarre

689
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: explanations for her failure as an expert witness to report

690
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: to Walter Sofronoff during his inquiry the clear evidence in

691
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: documents She was asked to examine of catastrophic problems with

692
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: DNA testing going back years, and it meant that that

693
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: inquiry missed the smoking gun known as Project thirteen. Her

694
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: withholding of this information was extraordinary and egregious in the

695
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: view of many people, including professional scientists whom we spoke to.

696
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 6: I asked her about.

697
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 1: It in a telephone interview ahead of our episodes about

698
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: Project thirteen in twenty twenty three. I mean, do you

699
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: think that the inquiry would have expected you to say, Hey,

700
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: there's also this massive ill problem. You might want to

701
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 1: start looking at that because it looks pretty serious.

702
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 7: I wasn't asked to look at a yielder shoot at all.

703
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: Okay, isn't that something you just want to volunteer anyway,

704
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: like let them know because they don't know what's there

705
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: until the expert witness tells them the then government was

706
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: working hard to spin and sugarcoat what went down. They

707
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: wanted to protect doctor Wilson wild Shannon Fenterman, as the

708
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: Minister at the time, with knowledge of what had happened,

709
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: could have told Dr Wilson wild in the wake of

710
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: the second inquiry, I'm sorry, we cannot support you anymore

711
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: in this leadership role. If you will not resign, we'll

712
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: have to remove you instead. Dr Wilson Wilde's appointment was

713
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: confirmed with a salary package of about half a million

714
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: dollars a year. Floundering in the lab continued. Dr Wilson

715
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: Wilde's leadership went for two and a half years. In

716
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: the end, the new government of David Chris A. Foley

717
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: blasted her out. Her side of the story would be

718
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: a fascinating listen and there is a standing invitation to

719
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: doctor Wilson Wylde to share it with this podcast. We

720
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: have a lengthy letter which she instructed her lawyer, Glenn

721
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: Ferguson to write to the Queensland Government in response to

722
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 1: the show caused notice she had been given a voice

723
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,959
Speaker 1: actor for Lindsay Wilson Wilde lawyer is going to read

724
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: from the letter. It was tabled in the State Parliament

725
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: in Brisbane in August twenty twenty five.

726
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 24: Since our client's appointment, Forensic Science Queensland has had a

727
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 24: positive history of achievements. In twenty twenty four, the lab

728
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 24: reduced the backlog of testing by approximately fifty percent. At

729
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 24: all times, our client has maintained the view as communicated

730
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 24: to stakeholders, that the rectification of issues in the laboratory

731
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 24: would be a two to three year process. Our client

732
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 24: has led the review and improvement of processes in the laboratory,

733
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 24: which is ongoing and continues to identify areas for improvement.

734
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 24: It would take significant amount of time and resources for

735
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 24: the laboratory to function perfectly within a short period of time.

736
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 24: Given the systemic nature of the issues, our client was

737
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 24: appropriately identifying issues and prioritizing the rectification given available scientific resources.

738
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 24: Our client has strived and continues to strive in implementing

739
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 24: a positive quality culture where scientists are able to voice

740
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 24: their opinions and raise issues so that those issues may

741
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 24: be resolved.

742
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: The letter from doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde, Lawyer, states that

743
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: she was not aware of sample to sample contamination until

744
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: the day before she was stood down that as soon

745
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: as she was told of the contamination, she began alerting

746
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 1: police and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions

747
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: and the Attorney General's Office, and it says she proposed

748
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: a seven day pause in operations by the lab so

749
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: that the cause of the contamination could be identified and

750
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 1: cleaned out. One day later, doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde received

751
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,879
Speaker 1: the show caused notice she was being told to pack

752
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 1: up her things.

753
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 24: It is alleged that our client has failed to carry

754
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 24: out the functions of her role. She denies that she

755
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 24: has failed, neglected, or acted incompetently in leading forensic science Queensland.

756
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: The lawyer's letter adds that under her leadership and at.

757
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 24: All times, she acted in accordance with best practice and

758
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 24: acceptable industry standards relating to the control and minimization of

759
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 24: DNA contamination in DNA testing. She has communicated openly and

760
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 24: acted with transparency, integrity and honesty in her dealings with

761
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 24: all stakeholders, and that the lab has continued to rely

762
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 24: on high quality processes and techniques that comply with relevant standards,

763
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 24: and where issues concerning contamination were identified, our client has

764
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 24: taken positive action to address the same. DNA contamination on

765
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 24: laboratory services cannot be eliminated. In an ideal world, environmental

766
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 24: contamination would be zero, but this is not reality and

767
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 24: never the case. The current facility is old and potentially

768
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 24: hinders contamination reduction. It is not consistent with good practice,

769
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 24: which is no fault of our client. Our client remains

770
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 24: confident that she is capable of performing the duties as

771
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 24: director with competence and due diligence.

772
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 1: In late August twenty twenty five, the government passed new

773
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: laws to give the Attorney General Deb Frecklington sweeping powers

774
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: over the running.

775
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 21: Of the lab What this state has been confronted with

776
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 21: is one of the most shameful failures of governance in

777
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 21: Queensland's history. The state's DNA testing regime overseen by the

778
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 21: former Labour government and was left in total disarray.

779
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 1: That was Deb Frecklington on her feet in State Parliament.

780
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 21: After a decade of decline. We have spent the past

781
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:17,240
Speaker 21: ten months delivering the Christopherily government inherited a system riddled

782
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 21: with contamination, extraordinary delays and results so unreliable that the

783
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 21: very foundations of our justice system have been shaken. Turnaround

784
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 21: times for critical DNA samples had blown out to more

785
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 21: than four hundred days, more than a year for evidence

786
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 21: in rape and major crime cases to be returned to police.

787
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 21: In that time, offenders remained on the streets, victims were

788
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 21: left in limbo, and courts were denied the evidence they

789
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 21: needed to deliver justice. The backlog of untested rape kits

790
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 21: alone grew from just seventy five in twenty twenty three

791
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 21: to more than five hundred by late time twenty twenty four.

792
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 21: These are not abstract statistics. These represent lives, families and

793
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 21: communities denied the most basic right to timely justice.

794
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: She was given the power to recommend the suspension or

795
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: removal of the lab director for any reason or none.

796
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: The changes took away the requirement that forensic Science Queensland

797
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: and its director must be independent. You're going to hear

798
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: some of the candid disclosures of Mick Fuller and Deb

799
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: Frecklington in upcoming episodes. They went to the United States

800
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: to meet scientists in Virginia. That's where the lab chosen

801
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 1: for the DNA testing outsourcing program is situated. Their scientists

802
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: are expected to process one thousand major crime samples and

803
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,919
Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy five rape kits a month. Their

804
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: scientists did testing on victim remains after the nine to

805
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: eleven terrorist attacks. Deb Frecklington and Mick Fuller also visited

806
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: the FBI to examine best practice operations for criminal DNA testing.

807
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 21: What a visit to the FBI here in Virginia, I mean,

808
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 21: this is all about learning how we can fix FSQ

809
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 21: and Queensland by learning from the best in the world

810
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 21: who really do want to put victims at the heart

811
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 21: of the justice system.

812
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: Vicky Blackburn and her eldest daughter Shanna have endured so

813
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 1: much in their pursuit of justice since Shandy's murder in

814
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: February twenty thirteen. Together, they sat through the murder trials

815
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen. Vicky was in despair at the way

816
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 1: it was being conducted. She would have stopped going each

817
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: day if she had not been told by the prosecution

818
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: team that it wouldn't be a good look. It was

819
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: not a good look when evidence about the stabbing of

820
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: a pig and how that was supposedly relatable to the

821
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: stabbing of Vicky's daughter Shandy became part of the trial,

822
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: but Vicky and Shanna had to sit and listen to

823
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: it and then suffer the ignimity of the jurors taking

824
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: just two hours to find the accused John Perros, not guilty.

825
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: They sat through the public hearings for the coronial inquiry

826
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: in Mackay in twenty nineteen, and then they dealt with

827
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: the podcast investigations, the evidence of gross failures and the

828
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: findings of first one inquiry and then a second into

829
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: those failures in the DNA lab.

830
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 6: It is hard to think of another family that.

831
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 1: Has experienced anything quite like this after the murder of

832
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 1: a loved one. Now, at a time when they should

833
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: be getting comfort from news that the lab has been

834
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: performing well, they deal instead with damning reports arising from

835
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: the exhaustive investigations by doctor Kirsty Wright and doctor Brewster Dooley,

836
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: and the confronting fact that the lab is arguably performing

837
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: as badly, perhaps.

838
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 6: Even worse than it was before.

839
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:38,479
Speaker 1: We really had high hopes two years ago, Oh we did.

840
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 7: Yeah.

841
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 17: We thought Welch had got to the bottom of everything,

842
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 17: and Lindsay was going to be put into place and

843
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 17: everything was going to be sorted out eventually, and that

844
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 17: lab had the ability to be something one of the

845
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 17: best in Australia, and that's what we were hoping.

846
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,919
Speaker 1: What do you believe we do well? Have had as

847
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: exposed in recent weeks and months.

848
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 17: I feel we've gone backwards on many levels. There's a

849
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 17: bigger backlog. Staffing is an issue, Training is an issue.

850
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 17: Contamination continues to be an issue and has gotten worse.

851
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 17: The historical testing is almost not moving at all. The

852
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 17: results coming out of that lab since the Bannett inquiry

853
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,439
Speaker 17: have not been able to be relied on a map,

854
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 17: hasn't been reported to courts or reporting scientists or police

855
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 17: or DPP or the currentate.

856
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 7: Just horrific. That's how this lab is being rung.

857
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 17: I said to Kirsty, I'm sorry, I can only read

858
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 17: about ten pages at a time.

859
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 7: It was so distressing.

860
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: Have you got an idea of why we are in

861
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: this space?

862
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 17: Negativity and in action by one per has the ability

863
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 17: to affect many people in this lab. Senior management in

864
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 17: the lab not fostering an environment to reach suitable results.

865
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: Vicky and Shanner's voices were heard in Kirsty's review in

866
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: a few ways. They went to some focus groups and

867
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: they also wrote a deeply personal letter to Kirsty's review.

868
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 6: Team.

869
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: They described some of their experiences during the two inquiries

870
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: and the toll that the lab's catastrophic failures in Shandy's

871
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: testing and in testing more generally has taken on them.

872
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: I asked Vicky and Shanna to read out some parts

873
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: of their letter.

874
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 17: I was left feeling that there was no hope this

875
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 17: process would be able to reach anywhere close to rectifying

876
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 17: the damage that had been done. I felt no one

877
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 17: cared about any of the victims, not just Shandy. I

878
00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 17: was completely shattered and distressed. I felt so betrayed, not

879
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 17: just on behalf of Shandy, but for every victim who

880
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 17: did not have the DNA in their cases correctly processed.

881
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 17: I walked out of the building and as I stood

882
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 17: at the corner, watching peak hour traffic rushing past, I

883
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 17: just had a moment where I could not bear hearing

884
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 17: more and more failures unraveling, knowing how those victims felt.

885
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 17: In that moment, I just thought about walking out in

886
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 17: front of the traffic. It was a very sobering experience,

887
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 17: and if anyone does not understand the importance oft DNA

888
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 17: management processes and reporting within the justice system, this is

889
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 17: an example of the reality of the impact on victims.

890
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 6: Did you kind of jump in there? Yep? What you're

891
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:48,439
Speaker 6: describing is.

892
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: You considering walking in front of a car and taking

893
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: your own life.

894
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 17: That was it, and it was very, very scary for

895
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 17: me because it's not something I would ever consider, but

896
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 17: write at that moment, just watching what was happening and

897
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 17: just the frivolity of these people that had destroyed not

898
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 17: only my life, but many many victims' lives.

899
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 6: You okay, yep? Can you please read the next section.

900
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 17: The impact on each person differs, however, they are all

901
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 17: long term and makes day to day life a struggle

902
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 17: no matter how much we try to overcome. There are

903
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 17: good days, and there are obviously bad days, but each

904
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 17: day is forced and managed. As I am talking with

905
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 17: Shanna and typing today, tears are flowing down my cheeks,

906
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 17: my hands are shaking, and I must keep going back

907
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 17: to retype my words, making it more distressing for us.

908
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 7: Both.

909
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 25: We hope no one enjoys losing a beloved family member

910
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 25: in the way we have. The revelations about DNA testing

911
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 25: that were made over the course of the podcast and

912
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 25: inquiries have led us to believe that there has been

913
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 25: a lack of appreciation of the impact on victims. The

914
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 25: impact of the original crimes is life long. Add to

915
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 25: that the failure to find justice, whatever the cause, resulting

916
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 25: in symptoms becoming more mentally, physically and emotionally exhausting. These

917
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 25: effects change not only who you are, but how you

918
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 25: live your life.

919
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:30,959
Speaker 6: Day to day.

920
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 17: And just like the loss of Shandy, our trauma feels

921
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 17: like it has no end. So we tell our story

922
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 17: for one of the better word in the hope that

923
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 17: it brings real understanding of the term victim based outcomes.

924
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 17: We feel very strongly and are committed to continuing to

925
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 17: tell our story as we fear if we stop, it

926
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 17: will silence other victims now and in the future, and

927
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 17: silence has never resulted in change. We can never take

928
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 17: back the crimes that have taken place. However, we can

929
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 17: bring a measure of peace to victims and allow them

930
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 17: to grieve and heal. Shunner and I look forward to

931
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 17: that time to come for us and the many other

932
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 17: victims that are still waiting.

933
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: Doctor Kirsty Wright was affected by the letter from Vicki

934
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: and Shanner. She has been a friend and confidante to

935
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: them since they met for the first time in a

936
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 1: zoom call in late twenty twenty one. That's when I

937
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: introduced Kirsty to Vickie and Shunner, and that's why during

938
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: an interview at my house for this episode in late

939
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, she is still appalled by a lab

940
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: which remains broken. Kirsty is still reflecting on the damage

941
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 1: inflicted on the Blackburns and many.

942
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 5: Others times that by however, many thousands of people the

943
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 5: harm that this lab has done knowingly doing it, she.

944
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 6: Has still got their backs. He is Vicky again.

945
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: In a recent interview with me and my colleague Karena Berger,

946
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: do you know what is happening with Shandy's crime scene samples?

947
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 17: As far as I know, we're waiting for research to

948
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 17: be done into seeing how to best get any remaining

949
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 17: DNA in those samples, how to get it out extract

950
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 17: that without damaging if there is any remaining DNA, and

951
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 17: that I think will be used for not just Shandy's case,

952
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 17: for a lot of cases.

953
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 26: It sounds like Shandy's retesting will be pretty complicated. But

954
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 26: at this stage, would you prefer that any retesting was

955
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 26: done by an external lab, possibly even an overseas lab,

956
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 26: rather than the life in.

957
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 17: Queen's lab definitely, there's no question about that. I'm hoping

958
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 17: her samples are Bible still.

959
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: But the Sofronov inquiry ended three years ago, Annabel Bennett's

960
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 1: inquiry two years ago. How long does it take to

961
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: do this piece of research.

962
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 17: The research has to be funded. It's not going to

963
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 17: be an easy task. They have to find a facility,

964
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 17: have to find scientists, They have to buy in samples

965
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 17: and replicate the swabs and test and test. And that's

966
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 17: never been done in the world before. So it's not

967
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 17: something that they can go to other scientists anywhere in

968
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 17: the world and say, hey, have you had this problem?

969
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 7: How did you get around it?

970
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 1: Do you know from the office of the Coroner in Mackay,

971
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 1: David O'Connell, who reopened share this case, where that's.

972
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 17: At waiting for these test results from the research. I

973
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 17: think everybody's hoping sooner rather than native. So I am

974
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 17: understanding where it is and mindful of that because I

975
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 17: don't want to be the person that rushes that through

976
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 17: and other people don't have the opportunity to get their

977
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 17: samples retested properly.

978
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: You are going to hear more about the untested historical samples,

979
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: including evidence from Shanny's case in upcoming episodes. How do

980
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 1: you feel about the ongoing delays and now these latest

981
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: catastrophes being unveiled.

982
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 17: If we just look at how many samples that we're

983
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 17: talking about and how many cases and how many victims

984
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 17: that has to run its course these catastrophes now though,

985
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 17: that's just put the lab another two to four years behind.

986
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 17: And if we can't get disresolved once and for now,

987
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 17: my feeling is that lab is nonviable.

988
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 7: That's it will be shut down.

989
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:47,720
Speaker 17: You can't rely on a facility using unvalidated equipment and

990
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 17: unvalidated processes and having results that they're reporting to courts

991
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 17: with contamination from case to cases, not just contamination within

992
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 17: a case, it's mixing case contamination across the cases. It

993
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 17: really is astounding that in Queensland in this day and age,

994
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 17: that's what we're dealing with.

995
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 26: How do you feel about the appointment of Mick Fuller,

996
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 26: the former new soup As Police Commissioner, as the new

997
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 26: director of the lab, particularly because he's a non scientist.

998
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 17: I have concerns and I'm hoping that he utilizes the

999
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 17: scientific experience from Kirsty and Bruce, because I think if

1000
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 17: he doesn't use those two scientists specifically, he won't be successful.

1001
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 17: He needs to have someone with very experienced scientific management

1002
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 17: skills to be able to guide him to do what

1003
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 17: he needs to do.

1004
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 1: This episode of Shandy's Legacy was investigated and written.

1005
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 6: By me Edley Thomas and Karin Verger.

1006
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio

1007
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. This podcast series

1008
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 1: is brought to you by me Headley Thomas and the

1009
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 1: Australian newspaper and digital side. Visit Shandy dot com dot

1010
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 1: au that's s h A N d e E dot

1011
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: com dot au for additional documentary material. Anyone with information

1012
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 1: about the murder of Shandy Blackburn can contact me confidentially

1013
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 1: by email by going to Shandy dot com dot au