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Speaker 1: I'm standing in front of the New South Wales Coroner's

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Speaker 1: Court in Lidcomb in Western Sydney, where in just a

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Speaker 1: few minutes now the inquest into William's disappearance is about

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Speaker 1: to start. It's a gray day. You can hear the

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Speaker 1: traffic roaring past. But for those involved today, all that

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Speaker 1: movement is going to stop. I can only imagine their

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Speaker 1: whole world is going to stop, and all that will

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Speaker 1: matter is what happens in that courtroom inside the building

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Speaker 1: in front of me. Now, it's four years now since

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Speaker 1: the last public hearing in this inquest, and in that

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Speaker 1: time the police focus has shifted completely onto William's foster mother.

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Speaker 1: They've launched an enormous search, literally dug up tons of

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Speaker 1: soil from around ben Rooin Drive while William went missing,

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Speaker 1: and her name has been in the newspapers. She has

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Speaker 1: been described in court as having had something to do

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Speaker 1: with William's disappearance.

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Speaker 2: Today, I'm in the media that we're going to be

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Speaker 2: doing some operational activity in the Kendle area over the

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Speaker 2: coming weeks. This activity is in response to evidence we've

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Speaker 2: obtained in the course of the investigation. It's not speculative

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Speaker 2: in any way. We're acting on behalf of the coroner.

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Speaker 2: At any conjunction with coronnial orders, she will be kept up.

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Speaker 1: David, and we do today expect to hear what evidence

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Speaker 1: the police have or haven't got to justify that level

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Speaker 1: of suspicion. Strangely though, we won't be hearing from the

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Speaker 1: lead detective David Laidl, or the man who's running the

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Speaker 1: strikeforce into William's disappearance, because and this is this is

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Speaker 1: actually extraordinary, the coroner has refused to call him. The

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Speaker 1: Police Commissioner specifically asked that David Laidlor will be called.

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Speaker 1: The coroner has refused to do that, but she hasn't

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Speaker 1: released her reasons why David Laidlaw's decision to target William's

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Speaker 1: foster mother has been very public. The Police Commissioner, Mick

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Speaker 1: Fuller said this about the strikeforce.

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Speaker 3: I brought a new team on board under Detective Chief Inspector.

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Speaker 3: They've laid Law through probably the state's most experienced homicide investigator,

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Speaker 3: and he pulled together probably one of the best teams

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Speaker 3: we've seen and spend an active investigation. And you know,

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Speaker 3: they had been working through a number of different pieces

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Speaker 3: of information and they inherited what was a bit of

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Speaker 3: a mess and have really cleaned up that investigation and

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Speaker 3: they've got a clear strategy, and.

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Speaker 1: The detectives in that strike force have said in court

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Speaker 1: they believe she knows what happened to William. So the

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Speaker 1: question that's in my mind right now is I'm about

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Speaker 1: to walk into this inquest, is how can the police

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Speaker 1: say all that with that kind of confidence? And yet

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Speaker 1: today in this hearing we're not going to hear from

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Speaker 1: the lead detective himself. Are we going to get the

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Speaker 1: answers that really, after all these years everyone is hoping

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Speaker 1: to receive. I don't know. The only way we're going

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Speaker 1: to know is by going inside.

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Speaker 4: Okay, Daniel, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things about courts is you're not

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Speaker 1: allowed to record inside them. So the only way we

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Speaker 1: can actually tell anyone what happened in the inquest today

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Speaker 1: is just like this, we come out and then you

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Speaker 1: and I have this conversation, Nina, because you weren't in court,

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Speaker 1: so you don't know what happened. The big thing is

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Speaker 1: what we haven't got. So there hasn't been a moment

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Speaker 1: where anyone has said this is the evidence. The police

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Speaker 1: have got to justify what they've been looking at and

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Speaker 1: the theory they've been following for the past four or

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Speaker 1: five years now. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The

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Speaker 1: senior lawyer working with the coroner said, it's beyond any

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Speaker 1: argument now that we'll material has not been found, and

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Speaker 1: it's beyond argument that no forensic evidence has been located

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Speaker 1: anywhere that provides a clue to his disappearance, So no

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Speaker 1: forensic evidence. And also it's beyond argument that there is

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Speaker 1: no eyewitness who's provided an account of how William left

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Speaker 1: the area where he was last seen, meaning the police

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Speaker 1: have no direct evidence of what happened to him. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it means the police can only have a circumstantial case,

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Speaker 1: which that can still work. You can still prove someone

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Speaker 1: has done something with a circumstantial case, but it's harder

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Speaker 1: and to do it you also have to prove that

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Speaker 1: the other people who might have been involved definitely didn't

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Speaker 1: do it. And what's been interesting is that the lead

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Speaker 1: lawyer working with the inquest has cited a couple of

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Speaker 1: the other moments in the long history of this investigation

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Speaker 1: where the police have directly accused other people of being

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Speaker 1: involved in William's disappearance, and the lawyer said that media

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Speaker 1: reports show the police now believe the foster mothers involved,

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Speaker 1: and he says it cannot be overstated that the coroner

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Speaker 1: has to act on the basis of reliable evidence. He said,

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Speaker 1: guesses are not rational. Suspicions form no rational basis for

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Speaker 1: making findings of fact. So you're kind of reading between

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Speaker 1: the lines because the way he talks, this guy, Gerard Craddock,

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Speaker 1: is very loyally. It's kind of scholarly. He kind of

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Speaker 1: goes around the houses, but listening to what he's saying,

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Speaker 1: he's saying, there's no evidence and you shouldn't be guessing.

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't be using your suspicions to make findings, which

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Speaker 1: is what the inquest now has to do.

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Speaker 4: So you reported earlier this morning that David Laidlaw was

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Speaker 4: not going to be called as a witness. No, did

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Speaker 4: they give any indication as to why.

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Speaker 1: No, nothing, it's been I said that Craddock's kind of

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Speaker 1: loyally and scholarly. He spent a lot of this morning

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Speaker 1: talking about all the evidence that has been heard in

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Speaker 1: the inquest before now years ago and emphasizing who was

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Speaker 1: where and when and detail timings of that morning, and

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Speaker 1: how we can be certain of what we know on

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Speaker 1: the morning when William went missing, So the time the

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Speaker 1: last photo of William was taken, the time a text

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Speaker 1: message was sent by William's foster father, at the time

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Speaker 1: of the Triple zero Corps, the time of the first

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Speaker 1: police officer arriving, how different people's Facebook posts can show

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Speaker 1: that certain things were happening at certain times and certain

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Speaker 1: people were where they said they were, and talking about

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Speaker 1: the search that was done that morning. And the more

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Speaker 1: he went over this, the more I'm starting to think,

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Speaker 1: why are we going over this? And then I started

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Speaker 1: to think, because he's building a case about what we

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Speaker 1: can know and what we know we can't no if

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. So he talks about the initial search

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Speaker 1: for William in the first few days, and he says

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Speaker 1: that was thorough. He's got no question about whether or

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Speaker 1: not that did its very best to find where William was.

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Speaker 1: And he talks about the second search in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: which he says was intense, and then he talks about

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Speaker 1: this third search he mentioned in twenty twenty one, which

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Speaker 1: the police launched, and he describes that as another level

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Speaker 1: of intensity. The police went in with excavators and rakes,

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Speaker 1: and they stripped out of vegetation, they used divers. And

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Speaker 1: the conclusion that the lawyer Gerard Craddock says is no

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Speaker 1: evidence was found that relates to William Tyrrell's disappearance. He

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Speaker 1: says the court may consider and perhaps conclude. And that's

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Speaker 1: the loyally talking that William under his own stem cannot

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Speaker 1: have traveled beyond the area searched. And the point he's

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Speaker 1: making is therefore someone else must have been involved. One

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Speaker 1: thing that among all that kind of long and detailed

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Speaker 1: raking over of the evidence we've heard is he talked

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Speaker 1: about how the neighbors heard a car that morning. They

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Speaker 1: heard a car on the gravel at the top end

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Speaker 1: of Benuin Drive, which is just outside the house where

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Speaker 1: William was staying. And he says, you can't prove that

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Speaker 1: there was a car, but there's definitely evidence of a

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Speaker 1: car being there, and no one knows. No one's been

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Speaker 1: able to prove who drove that car.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Peter and Sharrell crab So I went back and

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Speaker 4: looked into that. And so they got home about nine

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Speaker 4: point thirty in the morning that day, and they both

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Speaker 4: testified in twenty nineteen that they heard a car doing

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Speaker 4: a U turn in the street. They both thought it

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Speaker 4: sounded like the postman at the time. Yeah, and Charrell

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Speaker 4: testified that the car was moving quite fast. But I

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Speaker 4: did wonder, because there's been a lot of people testifying

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Speaker 4: about cars. I did wonder the significance of the crabs

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Speaker 4: in particular. Did he mention why he brought them up.

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Speaker 1: He's confident about the cabs evidence because he says one

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Speaker 1: of the detectives is sitting with Sharrell Krab asking her

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Speaker 1: about this, when Sharrell Crab says, oh, can you hear

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Speaker 1: that car driving up the road, and then a few

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Speaker 1: seconds later the detective hears it. So he says, despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that Charrell's quite elderly at that point, she's

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Speaker 1: obviously very capable. She is able to hear a car.

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Speaker 1: So he's got quite a lot of confidence in that.

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Speaker 1: So I think all he's doing is establishing there's no

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Speaker 1: evidence of what happened to William, but there's a possibility

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Speaker 1: that this car was involved in whatever did happen. He

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Speaker 1: hasn't gone any further than that.

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Speaker 4: It sounds like he was just making a big focus

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Speaker 4: on hard facts that he thinks can be proved versus

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Speaker 4: theories that can't be.

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Speaker 1: Is that the theme, yes, And he talked about how

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Speaker 1: the inquest came to an end in twenty twenty and

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Speaker 1: he said the reason it restarted this week this morning,

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Speaker 1: he said, is because the police decided to follow up

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Speaker 1: a theory. And that's the theory we looked at episode

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Speaker 1: four that the police believe William may have fallen off

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Speaker 1: the balcony, that his foster mother decided not to seek

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Speaker 1: help but to dispose of his remains, and she drove

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Speaker 1: down the road to the corner of Batar Creek Road

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Speaker 1: and Cobb and Co Road and disposed of his body there.

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Speaker 1: But what's really strange is the inquest seems to have

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Speaker 1: gone out of its way not to call any of

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Speaker 1: the detectives, so no one's been asked to explain why

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Speaker 1: the police pursued this theory or why they did the

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one search, the enormous search a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: What Craddock the lawyer did say is that the detective

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Speaker 1: leading that inquiry the one who's not been called to

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Speaker 1: give evidence, Detective Chief Inspector David Laidlaw. He says he's

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Speaker 1: given a number of statements the most recent one is

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Speaker 1: heavily redacted, meaning he's not going to be called to

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Speaker 1: give evidence, and his statement has been censored, so we

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Speaker 1: can't know what he says. Craddock, the lawyer explained that

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Speaker 1: saying so simple reason for that is what we wanted

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Speaker 1: was a straightforward recitation of the investigative steps taken since

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and the statement we've been given deals with

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Speaker 1: evidence in the form of one person's opinions about what

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Speaker 1: the evidence shows. So what he's saying is the coroner

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Speaker 1: asked the lead detective to give us the facts of

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Speaker 1: what the police have done, and what the lead detective

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Speaker 1: has given them is opinions about the evidence. He says,

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Speaker 1: it's fine for the lawyers to make submissions so long

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Speaker 1: as they take into account all of the evidence, not

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Speaker 1: of opinions, but a proper fact finding processes. So again,

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Speaker 1: it's loyally, it's scholarly, it's kind of going around the houses.

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Speaker 1: But it is a criticism.

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Speaker 4: That a sounds like a loyally disc.

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Speaker 1: It is a loyally it's a loyally dis and detective

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Speaker 1: Chief Inspector laid Law sitting in the inquest listening to

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Speaker 1: this but not responding saying nothing publicly. We heard one witness,

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Speaker 1: a hydrologist who was involved in planning the police search,

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Speaker 1: and you get a sense of the scale of the search.

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Speaker 1: Vegetation was stripped, then they sent in a cadaver dog.

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Speaker 1: Then they dug out the soil with rakes or hose

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Speaker 1: or use an excavator and they drained the creek. Or

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Speaker 1: divers are sent in to do a hand search, and

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Speaker 1: they dug out tons of soil and searched each bucket

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Speaker 1: full by hand. And this is all around that crossroads

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Speaker 1: that you and me went to where the police are

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Speaker 1: working on the theory that Williams fostermotherd disposed of his body.

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Speaker 1: And by establishing the search is so thorough, it underscores

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Speaker 1: the fact no evidence was found, potentially because there was

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Speaker 1: no evidence there to find.

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Speaker 4: When I saw that John Ollie, the hydrologist, had worked

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Speaker 4: on the Daniel Markham case in twenty eleven, I thought

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Speaker 4: that was quite interesting because it's quite a similar sort

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Speaker 4: of search that he did nine years since Daniel went missing.

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Speaker 4: And I was reading more about how they did that

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Speaker 4: search there to excavate five hundred cubic meters of sand

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Speaker 4: and remove a huge layer of sediment up to a

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Speaker 4: meter deep to find Daniel's body. And you've got to

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Speaker 4: think that is a case where they actually knew where

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Speaker 4: the body was. So I can't imagine how much harder

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Speaker 4: it will be for the place in this case when

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Speaker 4: they're kind of just working on a hypothesis and they

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Speaker 4: don't know really how big the area they have to

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Speaker 4: look at is.

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Speaker 1: It was vast. We saw a video of the search

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Speaker 1: in operation and it is, honestly, it's a lunar landscape.

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Speaker 1: They've stripped all the vegetation back and then dug the

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Speaker 1: earth down to five ten fifteen centimeters. Some place has

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Speaker 1: gone deeper, and then they've just dragged that earth out

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Speaker 1: and searched through it or sieved through it. But what

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Speaker 1: we've not heard, because no one's been asked, is why

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Speaker 1: did the police launch that search? What evidence did they

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Speaker 1: have to support the theory they were pursuing? And I

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Speaker 1: guess we don't have to have those answers yet. It's

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Speaker 1: only day one of the inquest.

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Speaker 4: Do we have an indication of who else is being

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Speaker 4: called this week? Are we going to stay on the

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one search.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the evidence this week is on the

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one search. We're going to hear from some

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Speaker 1: of the constables who are involved, another expert talking about remains,

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Speaker 1: how they can be preserved or they can be lost.

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Speaker 1: And one witness who was a truck driver who was

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Speaker 1: driving a long Bitar Creek Road. And we know because

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Speaker 1: it's been in the media, so it's been leaked to

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Speaker 1: the media that that truck driver saw William's foster mother

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Speaker 1: at that time. We don't know what he says she

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Speaker 1: was doing.

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Speaker 4: In the foster Mother's walk through describing that drive, she

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Speaker 4: talks about passing a truck as she drove down to

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Speaker 4: Patar Creek Road.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he thought I pulled over because he acknowledged me

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Speaker 5: by saying thanks for pulling over. But I pulled over

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Speaker 5: because I've just got my head out the window looking

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Speaker 5: for William.

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Speaker 4: Do we know if it's that truck driver or is

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Speaker 4: it We don't know.

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Speaker 1: We have to assume it's that truck driver. So at

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Speaker 1: the moment, we've got no evidence, no explanation of why

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Speaker 1: police launched this search, and yet it's only day one.

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Speaker 1: But there is something that struck me right at the end,

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Speaker 1: and this might give you an indication of how these

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Speaker 1: things play out not just in court, but in the

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Speaker 1: media and in the politics of this. Right at the end,

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Speaker 1: after you know, we've heard all day that the police

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Speaker 1: have found nothing, this professor John Ollie is on the stand.

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Speaker 1: He's a hydrologist. The police barrister stands up and says,

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Speaker 1: after you've finished your work on this, did you consider

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Speaker 1: that there might be any other explanation for what happened

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Speaker 1: to William? And he says yes. He wrote to another

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Speaker 1: scientist who was an expert on invasive species of pigs

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Speaker 1: or fox to ask him if it was possible one

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Speaker 1: of those animals had done something to William, And of

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Speaker 1: course the counselor assistant the coroner, and the coroner shut

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Speaker 1: that down and they say, look, we've already established basically

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Speaker 1: when not going to hear that evidence, and that also

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Speaker 1: you're asking a hydrologist about an ecologist's explanation of what happened.

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Speaker 1: But by then it's too late. That theory is out there.

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Speaker 1: And when I left the media room where the journalists

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Speaker 1: have all been working today, everyone is talking about this

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Speaker 1: idea that William Tierrell may have been taken by a

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Speaker 1: fox or a pig. And I bet that the headlines

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Speaker 1: tomorrow or even later today. The headlines say William Tierrell

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Speaker 1: could have been taken by a fox and there's no

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Speaker 1: evidence for that, but the theory is now out there

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Speaker 1: in the wild. So that's day one. Okay. So I

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Speaker 1: told you the media would report on the possibility of

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Speaker 1: wild animals, didn't I?

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Speaker 4: He did?

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Speaker 1: I did, and they did so the Guardian and the

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Speaker 1: Daily Mail, particularly the Guardian headline is William Tyrell inquest

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Speaker 1: Police suspect foster mother Berry Toddler after accidental death. And

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Speaker 1: then the stand first wild dogs may have taken any

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Speaker 1: remains of the three year old. Now it does say

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Speaker 1: no bones or clothing belonging to William were located, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mention that the senior lawyer at the inquest

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Speaker 1: has specifically said it's beyond argument no forensic evidence was found,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a difference in terms of how

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Speaker 1: strongly he's put there. And then the Daily Mail headline

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Speaker 1: is expert combed through a rubbish dump in the hunt

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Speaker 1: for William Tibble's body as detectives reveal shocking theory they

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Speaker 1: believe solves the mystery. I mean that's strong language. And

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Speaker 1: the article beneath it it says this expert didn't find

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Speaker 1: William's remains, but admitted animals could have removed them like

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Speaker 1: they do with kangaroo carcasses. And again it does say

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Speaker 1: police did not believe any trace of William was left there.

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Speaker 1: But that's actually quite different to what the lawyer said,

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Speaker 1: which is it's beyond argument no forensic evidence was found.

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Speaker 1: So I asked to speak to both of those reporters

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Speaker 1: and asked to interview them both about why they wrote

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Speaker 1: it the way they did, just out of interest because

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Speaker 1: I would have done it differently, And neither of them

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Speaker 1: took me up on the offer of an interview. But

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Speaker 1: I did speak to the Daily Mail reporter and we

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Speaker 1: had actually a really nice players and interesting conversation, and

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Speaker 1: she was talking about different things. So she's not actually

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Speaker 1: the one who kind of does the final bulk together

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Speaker 1: of her article. It gets updated over the day, so

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Speaker 1: she doesn't have final control of things, particularly like headlines.

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Speaker 1: She's also said she wasn't convinced that what I thought

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Speaker 1: was important about the lawyer saying it's beyond argument there's

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Speaker 1: no forensic evidence. She didn't think that was as important

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Speaker 1: as I did, As she said in terms of their audience.

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Speaker 1: This question about could animals have moved William's remains was

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Speaker 1: more interesting because this idea about wild animals has not

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Speaker 1: been heard before, so it's new, so it's news. I

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Speaker 1: said to her, Look, I would have written that article

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Speaker 1: pretty much the opposite way around, so the top line

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Speaker 1: is no forensic evidence, no eyewitnesses, and I might not

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Speaker 1: even have put in the reference to the wild animals.

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Speaker 1: And also, you know, the coroner challenged it when it

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Speaker 1: was mentioned in court and said, look, you're not the

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Speaker 1: right person to even give this as evidence because you're

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Speaker 1: an expert in hydrology, to which the response was that

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Speaker 1: that's because I've spent a lot of time criticizing the

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Speaker 1: police theory and that the podcast we're making right now

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Speaker 1: is all about criticizing the police, which is fair that

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Speaker 1: there has. It's been a fair bit of criticism of

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Speaker 1: the police in this podcast. But today in court, the

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Speaker 1: police barrister's back on his feet, so the lawyer representing

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Speaker 1: the police asking questions again about the effects of wild

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Speaker 1: animals on human remains. So it is something the police

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Speaker 1: are interested in.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting, isn't it. It just shows you how the

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Speaker 4: media shapes the story.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And we're.

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Speaker 4: Relying on the media. You know, there's no cameras in court,

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Speaker 4: there's no recording, there's a transcript the public have access to.

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Speaker 4: We're relying on the media to give us those reports.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so it's the media who allow the Oh I know,

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Speaker 1: this isn't rocket science. Everyone knows this, But it's the

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Speaker 1: media who shaped the how the public understand the story.

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Speaker 1: So right across the country, this is how people understand

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Speaker 1: not just what happened, but who these people are. And

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Speaker 1: you suddenly realize just how powerful it's shifting emphasis can be,

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Speaker 1: and how potentially damaging a shift of emphasis can be.

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Speaker 4: I did catch a new story this morning that kind

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Speaker 4: of highlights that the court opened today with the coroner

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Speaker 4: telling people off for abusing the foster mother outside the

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Speaker 4: court yesterday.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good point because it's the first thing

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Speaker 1: we hear is that there was a woman outside the

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Speaker 1: court yesterday as people were coming out. As William's foster

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Speaker 1: mother walks out, this woman outside the court starts yelling

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Speaker 1: abuse at her style oh wi, but also starts yelling

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Speaker 1: her name in public, which is obviously protected by these

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Speaker 1: non publication orders which haven't been put in place to

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Speaker 1: protect William's foster mother. They've been put in place to

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Speaker 1: protect other children who are associated with or have some

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Speaker 1: connection to her. So she started using her name. She

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Speaker 1: abuses her. The TV cameras are rolling because they're all

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Speaker 1: there to get that footage of William's foster mother leaving court.

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Speaker 1: But then the coroner says this morning, how she's disappointed

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Speaker 1: and this must not occur. But it struck me this

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Speaker 1: is one of the problems with courts is they haven't

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Speaker 1: kept up with the technology. You've got all this technology

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Speaker 1: in now with social media where people are spreading facts

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Speaker 1: and lies as well outside of the court, including all

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Speaker 1: this stuff that people think or suspect or speculating about

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Speaker 1: the people involved in this case. It's all getting spread,

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Speaker 1: but it's trickling into the real world. It's having real

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Speaker 1: world effects on the real people involved. But what we

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Speaker 1: did see today was ours more evidence about the search.

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Speaker 1: You know the search. It was big, it was thorough,

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Speaker 1: and there's no evidence has been found to support the

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Speaker 1: police theories. But the problem is that a lack of

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Speaker 1: evidence doesn't prove that William's body wasn't there, which is

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Speaker 1: where these wild animals come in. If the wild animals

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Speaker 1: could have taken William's body, then it might still be

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Speaker 1: that the police theory is possible that this kind of

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Speaker 1: hypothetical situation where William falls off the balcony, his foster

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Speaker 1: mother discovers him, doesn't call for help, and decides to

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Speaker 1: dispose of his body, is still possible because possibly a

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Speaker 1: wild animal took his corpse, and that's why there's no

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Speaker 1: forensic evidence despite years and years of searching. The coroner

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Speaker 1: did talk about that evidence today and she said that

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Speaker 1: the actual expert who gave that evidence, she looked at

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Speaker 1: the way he'd conducted his experiments and said that his

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Speaker 1: report could not help the inquest because there were problems

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Speaker 1: with the experiments. The police had asked him to assume

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Speaker 1: William's body was placed in one particular place, and she says,

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Speaker 1: you know, I pause to say, there's actually no evidence

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Speaker 1: that anyone was seen placing a body here or anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: And anyway, she said, the place, which I think is

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Speaker 1: that crossroads had changed over the time. So his reports

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Speaker 1: and his suggestion that a wild animal was involved was

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Speaker 1: actually flawed. So she decided not to include his report

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Speaker 1: in evidence and was not going to call him as

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Speaker 1: a witness. But now that whole idea has got out.

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Speaker 4: Was that area searched previously in previous search?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's one of the things that did come

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Speaker 1: out today was we heard evidence from some of the

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Speaker 1: dog handlers and at least one of them, they put

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Speaker 1: their maps up on the screen in the court of

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Speaker 1: where they were searching. He couldn't see one that clearly,

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Speaker 1: but the other quite clearly showed that they did go

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Speaker 1: down to that particular crossroads the day after William went

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Speaker 1: missing and obviously didn't hear anything and obviously didn't find anything.

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Speaker 1: Although one of the things that's really frustrated me with

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Speaker 1: this inquest is we're hearing a lot of detail from

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Speaker 1: these different people. So a guy who mapped the searches,

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Speaker 1: two different dog handlers, other people, and we know a

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Speaker 1: lot about them, but nobody is asking them what did

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Speaker 1: you find? No one in court has actually asked anyone

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Speaker 1: what was found in that search. All we know is

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Speaker 1: from what one of the lawyers has said, which is

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Speaker 1: that no forensic evidence was found. But it's not that

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Speaker 1: hasn't really been emphasized.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I know that, I mean a time of

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Speaker 4: the twenty twenty one search. There was so much media there,

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00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 4: and there was lots of moments where they were holding

437
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: up bits of material very dramatically and bagging.

438
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: Oh it was breaking news. It was breaking news. Yeah,

439
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: we've found a bit of red cloth, or we found

440
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: a thread.

441
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 4: But none of that. They haven't said what that was.

442
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: I haven't mentioned it at all. Inside the court. There's

443
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: still quite a lot of secrecy. There's a lot of

444
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: non publication orders. There were a lot of suppression orders

445
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: we're dealing with. Just before coming here, we've had to

446
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: email the court to say this thing you were talking

447
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: about this afternoon, we think it's covered by a suppression order,

448
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: but you've been talking about it. So is it suppressed?

449
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: Isn't it suppressed? Can we talk about it? That's how

450
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: difficult it is to cover this inquest at times, because

451
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: so much of it is under wraps. That said, I

452
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: think we can talk about it. Do you want to

453
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: hear about it?

454
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 3: Yeah?

455
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: Okay, now, okay, this was interesting. This was the last

456
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: witness today. A police analyst comes in and starts talking

457
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: about the number of what the police called persons of

458
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: interest and long in the short of it is there's

459
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: a lot of them, a lot of potential persons of interest.

460
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many, because that's where I

461
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: think this suppression order kicks in. So there's bits I

462
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: can't tell you, but what I think we can say,

463
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: and if I'm wrong, then we'll obviously not publish. This

464
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: part of the podcast is that by the August of

465
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: this year, there's still a lot of those persons of interest,

466
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: and the persons of interest we heard in the court

467
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: are people who might be suspects in this investigation, except

468
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: in August of this year, the lead detective, David Laidlaw,

469
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: asks this analyst to change the name from persons of

470
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: interest to persons named to police, and she said it

471
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: was changed to persons named because they were named on

472
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: investigations reports, but they weren't actually investigated, and that struck

473
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: me as being interesting.

474
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 4: That is interesting.

475
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: And then we started to hear in the cross examination

476
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: of her that the detectives on the strike force told

477
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: the analyst to take some of those names off her list.

478
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: And again I can't tell you how many because of

479
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: this court order, but she believes that was because those

480
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: people had been eliminated by the inquiry, but she doesn't

481
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: know why or on what grounds. They eliminated, and then

482
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: apparently they worked out some of the names had doubled up,

483
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: so they took more names off the list, and there

484
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: was some uncertainty about those numbers, but it still left

485
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: a lot of names. So then she was saying, she

486
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: went through and she starts looking at these names and

487
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: cross referencing them against things like RMS data, so driver's

488
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: license records, and under cross examination they basically established that

489
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: you can't eliminate someone who doesn't have a driver's license

490
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: because they could still be driving a car just illegally.

491
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: But those names had been eliminated on that basis, So

492
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: more of the names were taken off the list, so

493
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: the list keeps getting smaller.

494
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 4: Sorry that sorry, you're saying as of August, yes, there

495
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 4: were moving people based on whether they had.

496
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: A license or yeah, RMS data, yeah, and whether or

497
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 1: not they'd passed one of three point to point cameras

498
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: on the Pacific Highway. Despite the fact that the analyst

499
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: was saying, whether there were are the roads in and

500
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: out of Kendle. So she's asked by one of the barristers,

501
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: what I'm suggesting to you is that the examination of

502
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: the RMS records couldn't exclude anyone from being a person

503
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 1: of interest? Would you agree? And she says, I agree

504
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: with that. And yet it was used to take people

505
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: off this list, and the list got smaller. And we

506
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: don't know how small that list got. It started off

507
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: with lots of people, and we don't know how small

508
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: it got, except the police Commissioner Mick Fuller back in

509
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: I think twenty twenty one, suggested that list got very small. Indeed,

510
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: how many suspects have you narrowed the investigation down to?

511
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 3: You know? My understanding is from the investigators is that

512
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 3: there is certainly one person in particular that we are

513
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 3: looking closely at.

514
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 4: Do we know if any previously publicly identified persons of

515
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 4: interest were removed in this process?

516
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: We don't, And I think even if we did know that,

517
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you because of this suppression order. I think.

518
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: But the one thing we have heard more than anything else,

519
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: and we've heard it more than once at this inquest,

520
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: is that however many people or person is left on

521
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: this list of potential persons of interest or people named

522
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: to police. The one thing we've heard is that the

523
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: police have no forensic and no eyewitness evidence to say

524
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: that that person did anything to do with William. Wow.

525
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: So that's where we are at the end of day two. Okay,

526
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: day three, and I can now tell you the thing

527
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: that I didn't think I could tell you last night.

528
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: So I got an email at about twenty to ten

529
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: last night from the Coroner's Court saying that the information

530
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: on the persons of interest list we were talking about

531
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,239
Speaker 1: yesterday is not suppressed after all. And what this does

532
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: is it shows you the challenges of the secrecy surround

533
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: in this case. Because I was going off a suppression

534
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: order put in place in twenty nineteen by the coroner

535
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: on quote information from the persons of interest list, and

536
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: given we spent in court a good chunk of yesterday

537
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: talking about information from the persons of interest list, I

538
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: thought that might be covered by that suppression order, but

539
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: it's not. Either way, I can now tell you what

540
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: I thought I couldn't tell you, which is that in

541
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: August of this year, there were one thousand, seven hundred

542
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: and nine people on the police persons of interest list

543
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: for the investigation into William Till's disappearance. One thy seven

544
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: hundred and nine. Those are people that the police had

545
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: a reason to potentially suspect or want to investigate. But

546
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: that's before the cops changed the name of that list

547
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: from persons of interest to persons named to police and

548
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: then started cutting that list. So we heard in the

549
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: inquest that the detectives told the police analyst to take

550
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: three one hundred and forty five people off the list

551
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: earlier this year. She didn't know why, and we won't

552
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: know why because the detectives have not been called to

553
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: answer questions at the inquest.

554
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 4: It's completely maddening. I think at this point I would

555
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 4: pay money to just have any lead investigator on this

556
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 4: case from any point just stand up and outline how

557
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 4: they have investigated the case, how they've ruled people in,

558
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 4: how they've ruled people out.

559
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: And the other thing the police are not going to

560
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: explain is why they launched the investigation they're currently doing

561
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: into William's foster mother. So we don't know why they

562
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: decided to do that. Yeah, the other thing we don't

563
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: know because the court is closed and I'm currently speaking

564
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: to you because the court being closed means we've been

565
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: shut out of the room. Well, actually I can't tell

566
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: you why that's happened, because there's a non publication order

567
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: on the existence of the thing the court is now

568
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: hearing evidence about. So all I can say is we're

569
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: not in there. We're not able to know what it is.

570
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: And I can't tell you what it is that we're

571
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: not able to know about. And at this point there

572
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: was quite a bit of laughter in the media room

573
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: among the journalists. But I can tell you what the

574
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: big news from today was.

575
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 4: Yes, is it the truck driver.

576
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: It is the truck driver.

577
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 4: Everyone's excited about the truck driver. What did he or

578
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 4: is she say?

579
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: Okay? So the truck driver is a he okay. The

580
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: truck driver drove down Bitar Creek Road at around the

581
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: time William's foster mother has said she came out of

582
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: Benirun Drive which turns onto Bitar Creek Road and drove

583
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: down there looking for William. And the police have been

584
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: quite clear, in fact said in court on oath that

585
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: they believe she disposed of William's body on that road.

586
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: So we've been expecting big things from the truck driver.

587
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: I went back and I looked at some of the articles,

588
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: or actually you found them for me, and then I

589
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: read them. November twenty twenty one, The Daily Mail says

590
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: a New South Wales police source said officers believe an

591
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: object may have been thrown from the vehicle. That's Williams

592
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: foster mum's car as it was driven along Bitar Creek Road.

593
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: So there's this suggestion which is left hanging, that something

594
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: is thrown out of her car and that that's what

595
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: the police are looking for and talking to the journos.

596
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: The police were briefing journos at the time that this

597
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: was seen by another driver on that road. And then

598
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: November twenty twenty one, the Daily Telegraph talks about an

599
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 1: elderly man who told investigators he saw something dumped from

600
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: a vehicle on the morning when William went missing, and

601
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: the reporter says they showed this man a photo of

602
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: the car William's foster mother was driving and the man said,

603
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's the car I saw. Now, interest,

604
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 1: we've not heard anything about that man.

605
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because I think the public assumed that the

606
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 4: person who saw somebody throwing something from the car was

607
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 4: the truck driver.

608
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: Yes, and I did, and all the other journalists did.

609
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: So we were expecting this truck driver to be the

610
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: key witness because we know Williams foster mum says when

611
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: she was driving down that road, she saw a truck

612
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: driver coming the other way. And we know because it's

613
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: been in the papers that police are saying a witness

614
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: saw something being thrown from the car she's driving. So

615
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: maybe we've put two and two together and come up

616
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: with five, but we're all expecting the witness, the truck driver,

617
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: to say he saw William's foster mother throw something and

618
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: he was there at the time, because when he gives

619
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: evidence in court today, he says he was driving along

620
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: that road at about just after ten past ten on

621
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: that morning and was driving back around ten to eleven,

622
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: and that just before William's foster mother caused the police.

623
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: So just after she's driven down the road, on her

624
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 1: evidence says she's looking for William, and on the police

625
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: or their version of events, said she's disposing of William's body.

626
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: Now here's what that truck driver said. He saw he

627
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: saw two cars coming the other way, a black BMW

628
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: or maybe burgundy and a gray duel cab ute and

629
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: he didn't think either of those were coming out of

630
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: benuuin drive. And neither of those are the car that

631
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: William's foster mother drove and the driver didn't see anyone else.

632
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 4: Sorry, this isn't the truck driver that the foster mother

633
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 4: saw while driving.

634
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: Well, actually, that's a good point. It is a truck

635
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: driver who was driving down that road at that time.

636
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: She does say she saw a truck driver.

637
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 5: She did. He thought I pulled over because he acknowledged

638
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 5: me by saying thanks for pulling over. But I pulled

639
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 5: over because I've just got my head out the window

640
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 5: looking for William.

641
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: He in his evidence, doesn't describe the car that she

642
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: was in, and also doesn't describe seeing her or anyone

643
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: else throwing anything out of a car or disposing of

644
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 1: William's body at the crossroads where police have suggested she did.

645
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: So that's it.

646
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 4: Okay, So we've got a truck driver who saw some cars,

647
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 4: not that car.

648
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 1: We've got a truck driver who was definitely there because

649
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: the CCTV and his evidence and the evidence i'm assuming

650
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: of the person he was picking his load up from,

651
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: So he was there. The significance is what he's not said.

652
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: He's not said that he saw anything a bit like

653
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: the police search of that area, which went on for

654
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: four weeks, found nothing, and we know they have no

655
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: eyewitness evidence of William being taken, and we know no

656
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: one saw William's body being disposed of anywhere, and we

657
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: now know that this witness drove along that road and

658
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: didn't see anything either. This truck driver said in his

659
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: evidence at the inquest today that he actually called crime

660
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: stoppers shortly after William went missing to tell them where

661
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: he was and what he'd seen. And he also called

662
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: the radio station two GB and spoke to Ray Hadley.

663
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: This is what he said at the time, Peter Good,

664
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: I good.

665
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 3: How are you ready?

666
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 6: Well Pete, thank you mate. I just don't going to

667
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 6: hear this kid being either abjactor or disappeared. I wasn't

668
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 6: condewn that time of the morning. I actually stayed overnight

669
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 6: in Clive Barker the coffee or Bobby called Air BP. Yes,

670
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 6: I had the big A machine up out of a

671
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 6: Kendal Silverdale on Friday and by the time I got

672
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 6: up and got down to Chew area would have been

673
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 6: about nine o'clock. So I was in the area for

674
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 6: nine o'clock onward. And as I came off the Streic

675
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 6: Highway and I had to go over the top of

676
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 6: the highway into Q and as I came into the

677
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 6: queue shopping here, there was a black Camray sitting on

678
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 6: the left down side, now that it was a no

679
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 6: parking area.

680
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: The truck driver also said he saw the car acting suspiciously.

681
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: There was a black Camray driven by a blond woman,

682
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: But while he said it was acting suspiciously, he didn't

683
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: really seem to have a lot of grounds for that suspicion.

684
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: He said the car was in q which is a

685
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: town a short drive from where William went missing, and

686
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: then he later saw it in Kendall, which is the

687
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: town just near where William went missing.

688
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 6: I sort of went around this person and I started

689
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 6: heading into Kendall about interesting miss letter. That particular car

690
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 6: came into Kendell and parked up because I was almost

691
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 6: like a car park is a nursery there or something.

692
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 6: When you come over the bridge and then you go

693
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 6: over the railway line and there's a few little shops there,

694
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 6: and I was parked up on the left hand side

695
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 6: in the opening there where other cars were sort of

696
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 6: parked for a ninely degree, and.

697
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: It kind of got in his way. It was parked

698
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: where he'd wanted to park, and that added up in

699
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: his mind to being suspicious.

700
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 6: It was puck along Simon, but there was nothing room

701
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 6: for them to get out. So that particular car came

702
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 6: and parked, and there was a lady, a well built lady,

703
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 6: black shorts, blacktop, blonde walked into that shop. Now, I

704
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 6: was still there for a while, but then I had

705
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 6: to move on and I came back out a kendall

706
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 6: around eleven thirty twelve o'clock right, So this.

707
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: Play, but the key thing was that black can we

708
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 1: with That blonde driver wasn't seen near benuuin drive, which

709
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: is where William disappeared.

710
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 6: Okay, Peter, just stay there, stay there down hanging up

711
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 6: at a noisy line. We'll get your details on past them.

712
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 6: Two the investigators were poor filing.

713
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: What's odd is why are we hearing from this truck

714
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: driver now. He said in his evidence today that he

715
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: called crime Stoppers in the days after William went missing,

716
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 1: and when he was interviewed on two GB Ray Hadley

717
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: said he was going to pass his details to the police,

718
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: and we know from his evidence today that he did

719
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: give a statement to police before twenty twenty one, when

720
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: he gave another statement to the current strike Force who

721
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: are investigating William's foster mother, So why are we only

722
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: hearing from him today, particularly when it doesn't seem that

723
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: he saw anything that really proves anything at all. The

724
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: foster mother has lived for four years under public suspicion,

725
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: ever since that front page story in a newspaper where

726
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 1: police said they had a new suspect and are now

727
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: confident they will solve the missay of William's disappearance.

728
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, and something that comes up every time people talk about,

729
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 4: you know, whether the foster mother is suspicious or not,

730
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,479
Speaker 4: people bring up the objects thrown from the car.

731
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's no actual evidence that we've heard at

732
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: the inquest that there was any object thrown at the car,

733
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: and the only truck driver they've been able to find

734
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: didn't see anything. So for those four years when the

735
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 1: police have been working on this theory, prosecuting it in public,

736
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: in court and through the media, and also by trying

737
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: to send a brief of evidence to the Director of

738
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: Public Prosecutions, that's four years when we seem to know

739
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: now that they actually haven't got any direct evidence. And honestly,

740
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: there were people here at the court today who are

741
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: in tears about this. The whole inquest is talking around

742
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: the police investigation and looking at the facts of what

743
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: they found, but not talking about the investigation itself. And

744
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: the problem with this is police have no evidence, isn't

745
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 1: going to make the front pages, whereas police suspect William's

746
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: foster mother made pretty much every front page. There are

747
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: journalists here who are not finding stories today for that reason.

748
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: There's some that have already gone home, but there's others

749
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: who are angry. I've just spoken to one who's He

750
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: turned around to me and said, you know, for years now,

751
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: we have dutifully reported what the police told us in

752
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: good faith and started talking about the damage done to

753
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: the people involved. And I think that's fair, and I

754
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 1: think we have to look at ourselves for reporting these things.

755
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: But also we're not the ones who've been saying this

756
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: in the first instance. And it goes back to that

757
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: thing that if we now have four years on no evidence,

758
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: then what evidence might have been found if the police

759
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: were looking elsewhere. So day four and the last day

760
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 1: of the inquest, at least for now, I'll be honest,

761
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 1: it's been a painful week. So sitting in the courtroom,

762
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: I'm only really on the edge of the hurting but

763
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: even so, I feel like every night I go to

764
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: sleep and I wake up without getting any rest. How

765
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: are you doing?

766
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 4: It's been frustrating to watch it from the outside. I

767
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 4: kind of meagine how frustrating it's been sitting in there.

768
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: Look not frustrating to be there, because we've learned so

769
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: much in the past week. Honestly, today he was probably

770
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: the most grueling of the days to witness. So today

771
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: we watched a video recording of an interview, no not

772
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: even an interview, of the examination of William's foster mother

773
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: before the New South Wales Crime Commission. So she was

774
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: examined for two days and it's the first time anyone

775
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: publicly has seen her questioned. She's now the woman at

776
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: the center of the police investigation, and she's been questioned

777
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: before by police more than once, and she's done a

778
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: very few interviews, either released by the police or with

779
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: the media. But this is the first time she's been

780
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: sent in public under sustained examination by law enforcement. And

781
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: they played it with both Williams's biological parents and his

782
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: foster parents sitting in the room watching this.

783
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 4: Was in front of the Crime Commission. Yeah, can you

784
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 4: tell me what that is?

785
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: Was.

786
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 4: You've had to explain it to me before, and I'm

787
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 4: sure a lot of the members of the public don't

788
00:45:58,960 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 4: really know what that is.

789
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 1: The Crime Commission is fascinating. It is a body specifically

790
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: set up to fight organized crime and it doesn't often

791
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: or ever maybe get involved in this kind of case.

792
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: It's there for gangsters, drug gangs, and it has incredible powers. Firstly,

793
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: it's a secret body, so no one watches its examinations.

794
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: If you're called to give evidence to the Crime Commission,

795
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to tell people that you've been there.

796
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: When you walk into that room to give evidence, you

797
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: have no right to silence. You are not allowed to

798
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: not answer the questions. Your answers can't be used in

799
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: criminal proceedings, but they can be past to the police

800
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: for their investigations. And lying to the Crime Commission is

801
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: punishable with a prison sentence. So it goes way beyond

802
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: the powers of any normal court or any normal police investigation.

803
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: And we saw Williams fostermother sitting there on her own

804
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 1: in the dock, facing this exactation, and she was told

805
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: that the police had reviewed the investigation into William's disappearance,

806
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 1: that that involved them going right back to the very

807
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: beginning and looking again at every person and possibility to

808
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: try to find out what had happened to William. And

809
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: we heard that that was what delayed the inquest. So

810
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: there's been this four year delay in the inquest and

811
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: in her examination at the Crime Commission, they said that's

812
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: what the inquest is waiting on. And she looked very

813
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: lonely in that. You could call it the witness box,

814
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: you could call it the doc She looked very lonely,

815
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: and she was told the police have reached a point

816
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: of excluding a number of other people and possibilities and

817
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: there is a focus on you. I can't imagine what

818
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: it would be like to sit in that box on

819
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: your own, unable to tell anyone that you were even

820
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: in there, and face that kind of examination.

821
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it must be such a surreal feeling as well,

822
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 4: because most people, like I said, they wouldn't have heard

823
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 4: of the Crime Commission. So suddenly you're sort of just

824
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 4: brought into this weird, shadowy place.

825
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's the stuff of dystopian fiction. The

826
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: Crime Commission, probably there's a law against me saying that

827
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: we'll find out. Okay, So if there isn't an episode six.

828
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 1: That's because there is a law against saying that.

829
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: So it was a four hour video you guys have played, right.

830
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we watched excerpts of her evidence. So she was

831
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: questioned over two days and we watched chunks of that

832
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: and in keeping with the rest of this week at

833
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: the inquest, there was nothing in that examination that was

834
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: evidence against her, nothing that you could say, well, because

835
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: of that, we can say she did anything to William.

836
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: There were uncertainties, you know, she was asked about when

837
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: she made tea and when she took it out of

838
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: the house where William was reported missing. She was asked

839
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: exactly when she made the tea, how long was she

840
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 1: playing with the kids, and William's foster mother was saying,

841
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: she can't remember. There's timings and she can't remember other details,

842
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 1: other timings, you know, and her answers she was saying,

843
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't say definitively, I just don't know.

844
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: She was saying she wasn't thinking clearly at the time,

845
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: and she'd raise her hands to either side of her

846
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: head and to kind of give that sense of just

847
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: so much going through her mind at the time. You know,

848
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: she was talking about panic and hope, and all I

849
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: could think was I don't know where he is. And

850
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: she was close to tears at times. And yeah, there

851
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: are inconsistencies in what she said. You know, she has

852
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: been questioned a couple of days after William was reported missing,

853
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: interrogated again by police in twenty sixteen. This is the

854
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: third time she's had a kind of a major police interview,

855
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: and they challenged her. They said, nine other witnesses say

856
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: that you told them you were inside making the tea

857
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 1: when William went missing. But she was now saying she

858
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: might have been outside drinking the tea when she noticed

859
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: William went missing. And she accepted, you know, possibly she

860
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: did say that, and possibly she was inside when William disappeared.

861
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: But I'll be honest, that was the level of the inconsistency.

862
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: So there they are there. But also think back to

863
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: what you were doing. This would have been eight years ago.

864
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: She was questioned. Particularly a moment of stress, a moment

865
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: of fear, a moment of whatever happened, of high emotion.

866
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: It would your recall be exactly right?

867
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 4: No, And there's been plenty of research on the way

868
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 4: that trauma affects your memory and your brain as well,

869
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 4: so that has to be taken into consideration.

870
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they kept, they kept looking for these inconsistencies,

871
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: and that's fine, that's their job.

872
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 3: You know.

873
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: They asked her about that drive when she said she

874
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: was looking for William down Benner and Drive and out

875
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: to Bitar Creep, the drive that you and I did,

876
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: down to that crossroads where the police have said they

877
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: believe she disposed of William's body. And they asked, you know,

878
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: when did you make that drive? Where did you stop?

879
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: Where did you turn around the car? Why was there

880
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: twenty minutes between that drive and you calling Triple zero?

881
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: And she says, I don't know. She doesn't claim to

882
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: be able to answer. She says, look, I think I

883
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: was so focused on I don't know what I was thinking.

884
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: All I was thinking was I've got to find him.

885
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: I can't give you an answer for that. I don't know.

886
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: And look to me, she seemed honest. She seemed fallible.

887
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: You know, she didn't have an explanation for everything. She

888
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: didn't have a reason for anything. And over the two

889
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: days you could see her getting exhausted by those constant questions.

890
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: What did she know when? What did she think?

891
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 5: When?

892
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: How did she know that? When did she know that?

893
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: And her voice got faint and at times she was

894
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: fighting back tears.

895
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,720
Speaker 4: Just on the timing of the triple zero call gered.

896
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 4: Praddick made a point at the first part of the

897
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 4: inquest that the average time it takes for a parent

898
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 4: called triple zero is two hours.

899
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 1: I didn't know that, yeah.

900
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 4: So he made a point at the first inquest of saying,

901
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 4: she actually called triple zero faster than average?

902
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: Is that right? That's interesting? But you know, again, the

903
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: Crime Commission is doing its job's prizing for those weaknesses

904
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: in her evidence, and it's trying to kind of get

905
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: in and exploit them and see what if it can

906
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: widen those cracks. And the examination eventually got aggressive, genuinely aggressive.

907
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: So Williams foster mother is being examined by this barrister,

908
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: Sophie Callan, who is very good. I've seen her in court,

909
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: and she starts asking her, you know, do you accept

910
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 1: that when you took that drive to the riding school

911
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 1: you could have dumped William's body there. And at that

912
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: point Williams foster mother does break down in tears and

913
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 1: there's a very emotional reaction. You think I did that. No,

914
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: absolutely not, And the barrister hammers it did you do that?

915
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: Did you take his body to the riding school? And

916
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 1: responses no, No, And there are tears in the video,

917
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: and there are tears here in the courtroom as well,

918
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: because William's foster mother is physically in the courtroom watching

919
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: herself answer these questions, and she's crying and her husband

920
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: has got his arm around her, but the questions continue.

921
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: Did you find his body under the ferns and the

922
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: verandah that day? Again? No, she's absolutely insistent. Did you

923
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: find his body, realize he died and there was no

924
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: point calling emergency services?

925
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 3: No?

926
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: Did you decide to take charge of that situation that

927
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: was beyond remedy and hide his body?

928
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 3: No?

929
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: Did you decide to take charge of the situation and

930
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: hide his body rather than let your mother feel a

931
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 1: sense of responsibility.

932
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 3: No?

933
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: And then the barrister, Sophie Callon, spells out the police theory.

934
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: I want to suggest to you that what happened that

935
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: day was William went around the verandah and toppled over

936
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: and it was nobody's fault but an accident. No, And

937
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm finding him and William's mother interrupts, but I didn't

938
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: find him. The barrister says, I want to suggest you

939
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: put his body in the car and that's why you

940
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: took the drive that day, and the foster mother just responds, no,

941
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: I didn't. So she's insistent. She looked drawn and she

942
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: looked white.

943
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 4: By the end of it, was your sense that her

944
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 4: answers were truthful.

945
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be honest with you. And look, I've seen

946
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people give evidence in court and sometimes

947
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: you can tell they're lying, and sometimes, well, I guess

948
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: you never know what you don't know. But in this case,

949
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: there's nothing to make you think she wasn't telling the

950
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: truth or she wasn't saying something that was wrong, arguably

951
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: unlike the bit we heard next. So the next thing

952
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: we heard was this tape of two of the detectives

953
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: who went to the foster mother's house to serve the

954
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: summons on her, which is the bit of paper saying

955
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: you have to go to the crime commission. And one

956
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: of them was this detective, Sergeant Andrew Lonegan, who told

957
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: her we're not saying you hurt him, so we're not

958
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 1: saying you hurt William. And the other detective a detective

959
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: Sergeant Scott Jamerson, who told her, we're saying we know

960
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: how it happened, and we know why it happened, and

961
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: we know where he is. Now today at the end

962
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: of this week's hearings, we know they didn't know that.

963
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: They didn't know how it happened, or why it happened,

964
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 1: or where he is, because we heard today that at

965
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: that time when they're saying those things, the huge forensic

966
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: search of Benneruin Drive had not been done. Neither had

967
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: the forensic search of the car that hadn't been undertaken,

968
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 1: and the forensic search of that crossroads where they're suggesting

969
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: she left William's body that had not been done, so

970
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: they couldn't have had any evidence from those and we

971
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: now know those searches didn't produce any forensic evidence. And

972
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: this goes back to what you said about how surreal

973
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: the crime Commission is. Is Williams foster mother had a

974
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: phone call with one of her friends which was covertly recorded,

975
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: and they played that in court today and she said

976
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,280
Speaker 1: at one point, I feel like I'm living in somebody

977
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: else's body. I feel like I'm living in a dream.

978
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: Because she now knows the police are targeting her, and

979
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: that friend says, do you feel like they're any closer?

980
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: And Williams foster mother says no, And that's what makes

981
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: me angry. She says, you know, you've got zero, You've

982
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: wasted millions and millions of dollars and you've got nothing.

983
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: And that devastates me, she says. And she imagines this

984
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: time in the future where you know, years from now,

985
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,919
Speaker 1: maybe William's body will be found and people will say, oh,

986
00:56:57,960 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: that was the little boy that went missing. What was

987
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: his name again? And she says that hurts me, that

988
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: he'll be forgotten. And in this phone call with her friend,

989
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: she says, I won't let people forget him. And of

990
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 1: course she doesn't know that anyone's listening to that phone

991
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: call at the time. So that was the end of

992
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: the evidence today, except right at the end, the police

993
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: barrister stood up and said, we are going to come back.

994
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: There'll be another week of hearings in December. He said

995
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: he wants to call that expert on feral animals that

996
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: we heard about way back at the beginning of the week.

997
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 4: We're still on the animals.

998
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: We're still on the animals, and the theoretical possibility that

999
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: William's body could have been removed by an animal and

1000
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: that might explain why there's no actual evidence at the scene.

1001
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: And the coroner says she's already refused to call that

1002
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: expert and has said that she's looked at the way

1003
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: his experiments were done and she doesn't think they're credible.

1004
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: But the police said they're going to press it. They

1005
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: really want to call that witness to arguably say that.

1006
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: And the police also said they want to call William's

1007
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: foster mother to face questions in person. The coroner said

1008
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: she's already ruled that that's not going to happen, but

1009
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: the police barrister said he's going to ask again. So

1010
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if it will happen, but we are

1011
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: coming back in December, and that was it. That was

1012
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: the end of the week.

1013
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 4: So back in November twenty twenty one, when they announced

1014
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 4: the search, Detective Chief Superintendent Darren Bennett he addressed the media, YEP,

1015
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 4: and he did a press conference where he announced that

1016
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 4: they were about to do this search. And I'm just

1017
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 4: reading off so this is a story from The Australian.

1018
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 4: The Australian says that he was pribed about new information

1019
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 4: the force reportedly received in September of twenty twenty one,

1020
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 4: which pointed to a previous suspect being questioned again, and

1021
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 4: he replied, this is in relation to information we have received,

1022
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 4: no doubt about that. There is an investigative review that

1023
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 4: has been undertaken as an ongoing process, but there is

1024
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 4: also new evidence. I will not go into specifics. Have

1025
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 4: you heard anything this week that suggests new evidence?

1026
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: No? No, In fact the opposite, which is what leads

1027
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: you to question, what was the purpose of this week?

1028
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: If we've spent four entire days in court to show

1029
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: that the police have no evidence, it makes you wonder if,

1030
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: in fact that was the purpose of this hearing, And

1031
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: what's missing is then why did the police pursue this?

1032
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 1: How did they make the decision to launch this investigation

1033
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: of William's foster mother. All we've heard is the fact

1034
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: that they've not found anything. And I guess that's okay

1035
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: if you trust the police and you trust that they

1036
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: always make good decisions. But in this case, they haven't

1037
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: always made good decisions, or we wouldn't be here. Ten

1038
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: years on from when William went missing with no evidence

1039
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: and two families who are hurting, and we don't know

1040
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: what they would have found if the police had spent

1041
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 1: the past four years looking at and one else. So

1042
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: for the inquest to just gather the facts of what's

1043
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,959
Speaker 1: been found and not been found and not ask how

1044
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: that happened, what the police are thinking, I think that's important,

1045
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,919
Speaker 1: and that job asking if the police did the right

1046
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: thing that's been left to others, which is where we

1047
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: come in. You know, what did the police do right

1048
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,919
Speaker 1: and wrong? Right from the beginning, and that is what

1049
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: we're going to do in the next episode. This is

1050
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 1: Witness William Tyrrell. A lot of different people have been

1051
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: involved in making this series. Among them, the executive producer

1052
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: is Nina Young. The sound design was by Tiffany Dimack.

1053
01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 1: The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazz, phoebe

1054
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: Zakowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Adan Patrick, original

1055
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The

1056
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: editor at news dot com dot Au is Kerry Warren.

1057
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: I'm Dan Box