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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show. This is Better than Yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Useful tools and useful conversations to help make your day

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Speaker 2: to day better than yesterday, every episode, every week since

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Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. My name iss Osha Ginsburg, and I'm so

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Speaker 2: grateful you're here, mainly because.

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Speaker 3: It's book week.

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Speaker 1: It's book week.

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Speaker 2: No not where I dress up as Vashti from em

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Speaker 2: Foster's The machine stops and people go, who are you?

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Speaker 1: No, it's book week.

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Speaker 2: It's the week where my brand new book, So what

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Speaker 2: now what is finally released into the wild. It's been

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Speaker 2: on presale for a while. A lot of people that

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Speaker 2: listen to the show have got in touch. It's going

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Speaker 2: to be coming your way, like you're gonna get it

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Speaker 2: from today. If you want to go buy it today's day.

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Speaker 2: You can order it online and you can get right

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Speaker 2: in there. I'll put a link in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: And I also heard that my first book is back

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Speaker 2: in print, so if you want to grab that one

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Speaker 2: as well, it's been out of print for some time,

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Speaker 2: and so you can get the first book as well,

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Speaker 2: So go to for one. If you do buy either book,

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Speaker 2: please do review it on Amazon. People make a lot

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Speaker 2: of purchase situsms on what other somebody else thought of

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Speaker 2: that book. So if you do buy the book, please

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Speaker 2: please do review it on Amazon. If you want me

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Speaker 2: to sign your book, well, boy howdy bring it along

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Speaker 2: to story Club this Sunday night, tenth of August where

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Speaker 2: at the Factory Theater, Marrickfield doors at six show six thirty.

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Speaker 2: The theme of the night fortune Knocks but Once, and

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Speaker 2: joining us on stage will be Luke, Heggy Jeeves, Verma,

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Speaker 2: Rob Carlton, Karen Ferry. You've seen her on the panel

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Speaker 2: of Gruin Audrey Griffin. My wife is telling an amazing

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Speaker 2: story and I will be there as well, and I'd

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Speaker 2: love you to come along. Tickets are in the show notes,

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Speaker 2: but they are moving swiftly, so do get upon that.

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Speaker 2: I have a question for him, how well do you

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Speaker 2: know your own mind? How do you know when you're

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Speaker 2: doing well or not well? And what you might be

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Speaker 2: able to do you know, to hopefully get you feeling

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Speaker 2: a bit okay again. Even if you're not super literate

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Speaker 2: with your mental health, it's pretty easy to tell when

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Speaker 2: you're not doing great, or when you're at a crisis point,

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Speaker 2: or when you're all the way up to eleven. But

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Speaker 2: what about what you're like kind of middling along, like

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Speaker 2: a three or a four and things just.

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Speaker 1: Kind of hang there.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what works for you to move that

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Speaker 2: scale back to the baseline again, not just you know,

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Speaker 2: general advice, eat better, sleep well, eat you, but what

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Speaker 2: about something that you know from your own personal experience

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Speaker 2: that actually works for you to move the needle on

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Speaker 2: that Or maybe after you listen to today's conversation you

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Speaker 2: may have a few more ideas about how you can

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Speaker 2: get that stubborn three or a four back to tickety boo.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to it right after this break. Thanks for

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Speaker 2: being with the show today. My guests today are Professor

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Speaker 2: Ian Hickey and James o'lachlan. Professor Ian Hickey is a

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Speaker 2: psychiatrist and a researcher, also a co director of Health

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Speaker 2: and Policy at the University of Sydney's Brain and Mindseenter.

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Speaker 2: He's one of australia leading advocates for and commentators on

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Speaker 2: mental health. He found it beyond blue pretty amazing.

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Speaker 3: James L.

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Speaker 2: Laughlin joins Professor Ian Hickey today. He was on the

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Speaker 2: ABC for a very long time. He was on a

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Speaker 2: TV show called The New inventors. You've heard him on radio.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure if you live anywhere in the city. He

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Speaker 2: also gets on Radio National every now and again, you

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Speaker 2: might have seen him speak or do stand up. He's

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Speaker 2: also written fourteen books, which is twelve more than me.

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Speaker 2: And it was wild to meet him because I've listened

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Speaker 2: to him on radio and watched him on TV for

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Speaker 2: a long time.

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Speaker 1: And much like when I met.

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Speaker 2: Richard Glover for the first time, I'm like, oh, it's you.

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Speaker 2: That's the voice that I know very well.

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Speaker 1: And now you're standing in front of me. It was wild.

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Speaker 2: Now, Professor Ian Hickey and James of Lachlan do a

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Speaker 2: podcast together. It's called Minding Your Mind, and they have

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Speaker 2: written a book together, a User's Guide to the Mind,

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Speaker 2: which is rather excellent. I love things that do what

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Speaker 2: they say on the box, and this book one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent is that it's a user's guide to the mind,

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Speaker 2: and it's very practical, and it's very useful.

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Speaker 1: It's full of brilliant tools.

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Speaker 2: Today we're going to talk about how crucial early intervention

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Speaker 2: can be when it comes to mental health, how the

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Speaker 2: emergency department or the er isn't really the place to

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Speaker 2: be when you're having a mental health crisis. We talk

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Speaker 2: about identity, how we feel about ourselves. We talk about

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Speaker 2: the parts of us that we can we can't change,

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Speaker 2: and what we do about that and finding what helps

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Speaker 2: us keep mentally healthy. We talk about boundaries, how to

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Speaker 2: establish them if you don't know what they are before,

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Speaker 2: and a whole bunch more, and just for a bit

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Speaker 2: of context. Since the beginning of this year, I've been

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Speaker 2: recording in a new location and there's been one particular

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Speaker 2: drawback to that. But this episode, it was a very

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Speaker 2: special day where that was finally taken care of.

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Speaker 1: I was most excited. It's been six months or more.

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Speaker 2: And I finally graduated at my new worksite and I

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Speaker 2: had to share it with the fellas. Gentlemen, You've come

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Speaker 2: here on a wonderful day. I've graduated to become a

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Speaker 2: real boy. I've got my past to go to the

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Speaker 2: toilet today.

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Speaker 4: Congratulations.

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Speaker 5: It's important to achieve something every day.

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Speaker 1: It is it is, It says so in the box.

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Speaker 2: You both of you know this feeling when you've been

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Speaker 2: at a place of work some time and you get

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Speaker 2: that pass.

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Speaker 1: It's a feeling of acceptance.

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Speaker 2: It's a feeling of someone is someone out there trusts

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Speaker 2: me and believes in me.

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Speaker 3: It is in the organizations I work for university's hospitals

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Speaker 3: is to sign that it's time to leave, really so,

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Speaker 3: because it takes so long to get it that by

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Speaker 3: the time the past arrives on the side on the door.

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Speaker 4: It's also sort of a win of the individual over

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Speaker 4: the bureaucracy, which I think you beat them, you beat

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Speaker 4: them down.

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Speaker 2: The persistence the bureaucracy can often be a hindrance to progress.

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Speaker 2: Anyone who's tried to build a house or put a

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Speaker 2: deck on their apartment, we'd understand this. Unfortunately, and you

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Speaker 2: both have probably first hand experience in this bureocracy can also.

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Speaker 1: Get in the way of people getting help, can't.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 3: In fact, the mental health are one of our biggest

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Speaker 3: beefs at the moment. Tied up this every day is

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Speaker 3: how could we facilitate more rapid actions. We a whole

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Speaker 3: thing about right care first time, where you live, so

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Speaker 3: those three things like high quality care early, like quickly,

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Speaker 3: and then close to where you are like successible, you

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Speaker 3: can afford it, you know, these things which are really

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Speaker 3: challenging but essential. By the time someone says they want

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Speaker 3: help for a mental health problem. You know, often people

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Speaker 3: have waited a long time and then they really need

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Speaker 3: and so often in a crisis often need to get

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Speaker 3: effective care, not oh you'll have to see a GP

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Speaker 3: and then get a referral and then in some goddamn

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Speaker 3: time three to six to twelve months you might get

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Speaker 3: to see someone, and that someone may or may not

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Speaker 3: actually be that interested, maybe very expensive delayed. And I say,

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Speaker 3: because we have three men in the room here for blokes,

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Speaker 3: that's about enough to never get care.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, to turn away, to.

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Speaker 3: Discouraged and too discouraging, and there's an unnecessary paperwork, bureaucracy,

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Speaker 3: loss of information. So it's bureaucratic. It just strikes people

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Speaker 3: as it's not really responding to my needs.

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Speaker 2: When I was unwell, it was only once I started

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Speaker 2: to very vociferously advocate for myself that thing started to change.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I just kind of realized, oh this,

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Speaker 2: I cannot go on another day like this. I have

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Speaker 2: to go and find help. And I just start knocking

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Speaker 2: on doors.

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Speaker 4: Which is very difficult when your mental health is not

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Speaker 4: good to actually have the challenge of trying to pick

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Speaker 4: apart a puzzle, which is often what it feels like

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Speaker 4: with bureaucracy in general and the healthcare system and the

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Speaker 4: mental health system in particular. It's like looking for clues

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Speaker 4: and trying to work out and starting from a period

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Speaker 4: of ignorance and trying to find out what you can

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Speaker 4: and getting it wrong. And if your mental health is

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Speaker 4: already challenged, it's not going to make it.

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Speaker 1: Better when we made that.

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Speaker 2: So I've made two documentaries aside from all the other

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Speaker 2: TV stuff, but I made one about suicide prevention in Austria.

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Speaker 2: There's an extraordinary project that's across the road from the

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Speaker 2: Blacktown Hospital in Sydney, and it's just the house.

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Speaker 1: It is a.

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Speaker 2: Clandestine intake for the mental health forard. So if you're

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Speaker 2: having a terrible time, er is a bad place because

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Speaker 2: you're not bleeding from the head, So you can sit

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Speaker 2: in the back and we might get to you in

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Speaker 2: about eight hours, all right. But this joint is just

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Speaker 2: a home and you come in and you have a

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Speaker 2: cup of tea and you sit on a couch and

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Speaker 2: someone comes to sits next to you and they fill

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Speaker 2: that forms with you and it's just amazing. And Toby,

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Speaker 2: one of my cameraman, oh sorry, Toby, the cameraman that

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Speaker 2: shot that. He said, the problem with hospitals is there's

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Speaker 2: only a blood and gutstoor. There isn't a I'm not

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Speaker 2: having a good time in my brain door. And I

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Speaker 2: thought that pretty much summed it up.

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Speaker 3: In fact, we had a whole debate in mental health

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Speaker 3: at one stage about whether there were genuine emergencies or

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Speaker 3: not because some bureaucratic processes, going back to Bureucasy question,

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Speaker 3: said there weren't any. In mental health, we see, what

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Speaker 3: if the person's going to walk out the door and

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Speaker 3: walk in front of a truck or off a cliff,

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Speaker 3: is that an emergency? You know, because it's just as

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Speaker 3: life threatening and it forced a lot of people in

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Speaker 3: the emergency room situation and go, you know what, we

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Speaker 3: do underrate these things. We're just not set up that way.

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Speaker 1: As any country in the world doing it well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, no idea is a great idea first, and

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Speaker 2: everyone copy somebody else.

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Speaker 3: So there are lots of different experiments around the world

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Speaker 3: actually in different ways of doing it in different settings. Interestingly,

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Speaker 3: I personally think some of the most interesting things are

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Speaker 3: in developing countries because guess what they don't be with

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Speaker 3: the hospitals they don't build big things.

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Speaker 5: They're trying to do things differently.

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Speaker 3: A lot of it they're trying to do digitally by

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Speaker 3: using actual modern communication systems. Less emphasis on getting to

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Speaker 3: a place and a big place and often, as you've

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Speaker 3: pointed out, the wrong place, and more on community support,

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Speaker 3: more on how to support people in their communities, and

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Speaker 3: then through digital means, get the professional care to come

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Speaker 3: to you in your home, in your community where you

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Speaker 3: are supported by local people, friends, family, etc. So it's

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Speaker 3: kind of interesting. I think the most interesting developments are

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Speaker 3: actually not in what you might think are the most

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Speaker 3: wealthy health system, where we've built everything for blokes my age,

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Speaker 3: for heart attacks, for cancer, for a accident emergency, and

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Speaker 3: we're really good at that, but we really don't have

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Speaker 3: an easy way of coming to terms with really common

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Speaker 3: and serious and life threatening mental health problems because.

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Speaker 2: Those crises often have started maybe weeks, months, even years beforehand,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of where the book starts. Really is

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Speaker 2: if you've got a bit of an idea that something

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Speaker 2: might not be right, but when I really got sick,

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Speaker 2: my the bloke I'll called on the first day, he goes, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're lucky Park, because crazy people don't know they're crazy.

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Speaker 3: This is where friends and relatives and whether you trust

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Speaker 3: your friends in realtis really matters.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I'm some of us like to be told you're

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Speaker 5: not quite okay.

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Speaker 4: A bit more than that. I mean, one of the

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Speaker 4: central tenets of our book is to try and encourage

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Speaker 4: people to be to see their own mental health as

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Speaker 4: a thing. And we don't have to think about that

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Speaker 4: with our physical health. If you've got a sore foot,

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Speaker 4: you know you've got a sore foot. There's no denying it.

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Speaker 4: You can go to the doctor or not go to

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Speaker 4: the doctor, but you know you do something wrong with

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Speaker 4: your foot. But with our mental health, we don't often

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Speaker 4: even identify it as a thing. And you're talking about

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Speaker 4: kind of stage eleven, where something really dramatic happens and

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Speaker 4: you can't deny it. But what about stages two, three,

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Speaker 4: or four where you're just feeling that life isn't as

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Speaker 4: good as it used to be, and it's happened so

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Speaker 4: gradually and incrementally that you've hardly noticed. And I guess

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Speaker 4: what we're trying to do is encourage people to be

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Speaker 4: aware of their mental health all the time, even when

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Speaker 4: they're well and have some way of marking it so

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Speaker 4: that they can say, well, life's still good. But actually

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Speaker 4: I think it was better a couple of months ago.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know why, because my relationships are same,

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Speaker 4: my jobs are same. It was winter there, now it's summer.

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Speaker 4: I should be feeling good. But there's something kind of

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Speaker 4: lacking in the earlier you can get it. I mean,

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Speaker 4: Ian always bangs on about early intervention. The earlier you

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Speaker 4: can identify that your mental health might be slipping a bit,

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Speaker 4: then the less likely it is it will get dramatic.

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Speaker 2: I don't think Ian has as a copyright on early intervention.

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Speaker 1: You know, we get skin checks for a reason.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've got sent a letter from the government

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Speaker 2: on my fiftieth birthday to poop in a bag for

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Speaker 2: a reason. You know.

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Speaker 3: Well you say that, but really, in mental health, and

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Speaker 3: although we've had some of the world's leading experts in

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Speaker 3: this in Australia, Pat mcgrainey's colleagues in the psychosis area,

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Speaker 3: it's still in the professions hotly debated in mental health

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Speaker 3: about the valuability intervention or not. Now, cancer in heart disease,

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Speaker 3: infective goes. You're kidding, isn't that kind of obvious. The

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Speaker 3: poop in the bag is an excellent example the screening

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Speaker 3: for all sorts of things.

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Speaker 4: And you can do maths on it, can't you. You

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Speaker 4: can just do maths that spending this amount safe.

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Speaker 1: I think we did.

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Speaker 2: We did about when I was at Sane Australia. I

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Speaker 2: was on the board there for a while and we

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Speaker 2: did a bit of a few sums on water crisis

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Speaker 2: intervention in an er costs the tax payer advert.

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Speaker 3: And you've just sorted that the trauma associated with entering

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Speaker 3: their system acutely. Oh man, So the long term effect

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Speaker 3: of that. In fact, Pat mcgrorrey's work in Melbourn, which

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Speaker 3: is very famous, people don't necessarily know this. Pat was

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Speaker 3: more concerned about the traumatic effect on young people of

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Speaker 3: hospitalization the first time. That was his really interested just

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Speaker 3: trying to prevent that, and from that working backwards to

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Speaker 3: could we intervene earlier, as you said, James, at the

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Speaker 3: two three four stage, not at the eleventh stage. So

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Speaker 3: it might surprise people to know we still And the

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Speaker 3: reason we have that debate is people worry about taking

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Speaker 3: money away from those who've got established illness and spending

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Speaker 3: it on a group of people who may or may

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Speaker 3: not progress to that. Everybody else in medicine gags. You're kidding,

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Speaker 3: you know, life is so much better to grab a

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Speaker 3: problem when it's small, before you've lost a relationship, lost

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Speaker 3: a job, not on the university, and.

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Speaker 5: All sorts of ended up in court.

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Speaker 3: It sounds, as Jane says, bleedingly obvious, but it's not

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Speaker 3: set often enough. And I think what the book is

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Speaker 3: about and what we're about, is trying to promote widely

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Speaker 3: in the public. It's easier if we all do it.

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Speaker 3: It's not just late to you're really unwell and then

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Speaker 3: think I should intervene. It early means before, this means

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Speaker 3: all of this, And we think about this, as James's

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Speaker 3: pointed out, with our physical health. You know, we're not

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Speaker 3: all going to have a heart attack, we're not all

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Speaker 3: going to have diabetes as well, but we're all forced

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Speaker 3: to think these days about our physical fitness, about our weight,

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Speaker 3: about our diet, which is good for all of us anyway,

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Speaker 3: and then does help to prevent And I don't.

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Speaker 4: Know about Yosha, but I was in my thirties before

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Speaker 4: I realized mental health was a thing. I used to think,

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Speaker 4: sometimes the world is good. Sometimes it's bad. It's really

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Speaker 4: got nothing to do with the eyes I'm looking at

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Speaker 4: it with. And now, of course we realize that there's

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Speaker 4: two variables. There's what happens in the world, and it's

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Speaker 4: how we perceive them, and we can perceive exactly the

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Speaker 4: same situation has been great and awful on different days,

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Speaker 4: depending on the state of our mental health. And to

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Speaker 4: think that I went through, as did almost everyone I know,

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Speaker 4: over thirty years of my life, not even knowing mental

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Speaker 4: health with a thing. I think about a lot of

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Speaker 4: the experiences I had when I was young, and I think,

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Speaker 4: if you I just know it, and if you just

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Speaker 4: known a couple of things you could have done about it,

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Speaker 4: it wouldn't have eased every scintilla of suffering, but it

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Speaker 4: certainly loaded it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was saying to my friend the other day, I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to put this live show together for this new book,

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Speaker 2: and I'm working out some software. I'm having a very

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Speaker 2: steep learning curve and he's like, man, do you have

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Speaker 2: to And I was like, well, I wouldn't want to

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Speaker 2: go on across country rally without knowing how to change

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Speaker 2: a tire.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, that's fair point.

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Speaker 2: So Yeah, if I'm going to be out on the

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Speaker 2: road with this thing, I need to know if it's broken.

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Speaker 2: But we don't really get that with our brains. I

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Speaker 2: mean I see it now with my son. He's nearly six,

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Speaker 2: and they already are teaching them about the different bits

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Speaker 2: of their brains. It's extraordinary. He's they call that. He goes, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's the part of my brain. That's the guard dog.

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Speaker 2: That's a part of my brain. That's the hip, the elephant.

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Speaker 2: It remembers the things. And so they're teaching them the

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Speaker 2: bits of their brain early on now, which is beautiful.

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Speaker 2: That's generation.

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Speaker 1: But there's you know, there's a gap.

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Speaker 3: Also, just one step further. You need to know what

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Speaker 3: works for you. So the emphasis in the book is

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Speaker 3: we say a lot of things in general, sleep well,

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Speaker 3: exercise well, you know, but we're all a bit different.

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Speaker 3: You need to work out the skills that work for you.

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Speaker 3: Taking changing the tire kind of thing, you know, no

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Speaker 3: point knowing how to ring the roadside service. You need

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Speaker 3: to know how to do it yourself. So for our

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Speaker 3: own mental health, we need to work out what really works.

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Speaker 3: James and I debate this all the time. Stuff that

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Speaker 3: works for him doesn't work for me. Stuff that works

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Speaker 3: for me doesn't appeal to James in other ways. But

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Speaker 3: each of us needs to know. And the earlier you

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Speaker 3: find that out in life, what really matters to you

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Speaker 3: when you're in trouble or you're struggling, or to not

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Speaker 3: just go from you know, when you're really low, but

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Speaker 3: from mid range to better. What really lifts your mental

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Speaker 3: health and keeps you there. And if it is exercise,

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Speaker 3: or it is regulating your sweet wake cycle, or something

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Speaker 3: about your diet or some other sets of cognitive skills,

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Speaker 3: things you can think, things you can overcome.

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Speaker 4: You're just seeing friends or go for a walk in

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Speaker 4: the sun or whatever it is. It's so empowering to

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Speaker 4: have worked those things out. And again I think, God,

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Speaker 4: I wish I'd known all that when I was in

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Speaker 4: my twenties, But now I do, so that when I

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Speaker 4: am challenged, I think, right, I know what to do.

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to pull down the blinds and girl

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Speaker 4: up in bed. I'm going to make myself go outside.

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Speaker 3: So you made a comment about situations where you now

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Speaker 3: know you're more at risk. You're something when you stress

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Speaker 3: builds up over time, you're doing certain kinds of work,

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Speaker 3: so understanding your own vulnerability. What's the situations that really

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Speaker 3: trigger you? You know, because it's not all the same.

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Speaker 3: People cope with different things and they just assume that

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Speaker 3: that's the event. It's the same for everyone.

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Speaker 4: To give you an example, I'm doing breakfast radio this week.

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Speaker 4: That makes me get up at four am, and I

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Speaker 4: know a big one for me is not having seven

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Speaker 4: or eight hours of sleep. And the first couple of days,

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Speaker 4: I didn't sleep well and I wasn't depressed, but I'm

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Speaker 4: sure as ill, wasn't happy and I couldn't do able.

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Speaker 1: I was fine at.

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Speaker 4: Work, I'd get on about eleven and I'd literally just

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Speaker 4: lie on the coutch. Then the third night, I slept

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Speaker 4: really well, and my mood the next day was so

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Speaker 4: much better. And so I now know when I have

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Speaker 4: a series of early mornings, I just you know, some

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Speaker 4: of the producers are saying to me, oh, yeah, I

396
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Speaker 4: stayed up last night because we were seeing friends. I

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Speaker 4: stayed up because my girlfriend gets home late, and I Taylor,

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Speaker 4: I'm just brutal. I really love my family, but like

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Speaker 4: last night, seven o'clock, I don't care if you're watching

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Speaker 4: my favorite movie. I'm out of here, I'm going to

401
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Speaker 4: bed everyone big quiet, because I know that's a respective

402
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Speaker 4: for me. Some people can do it on five hours,

403
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Speaker 4: but I just fall apart really quickly if I'm not sleeping.

404
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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we've spoken a bit about exercise and sleep.

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Speaker 1: These things absolutely have merit.

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Speaker 2: But I think one of the things that might be

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Speaker 2: interesting we spoke about, you know, stage eleven is when

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Speaker 2: you knocking on.

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Speaker 3: The door at the air right, what are going on

410
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Speaker 3: your door?

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Speaker 2: Even worse, Yes, there may be benefit in explaining for

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Speaker 2: people this might be the first time they've considered it.

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Speaker 2: What are some things that might be signs when not

414
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Speaker 2: doing as well as we thought, and that we might

415
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Speaker 2: need to consider, you know, getting a better night sleep,

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Speaker 2: may be drinking less than four cups of coffee your day,

417
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Speaker 2: you know, maybe starting to change a few things.

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Speaker 3: So I think there are two baskets. One stuff you

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Speaker 3: can see about yourself. The other is being sensitive to

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Speaker 3: what people say about you, people who are close to you.

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Speaker 3: You know, so if someone of the person that you

422
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Speaker 3: live with says you are more irritable, or you just

423
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Speaker 3: don't join in things as much, or you're avoiding doing

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Speaker 3: stuff for you're getting stuck like actually This is really hard,

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Speaker 3: and I'd say very hard to many men.

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Speaker 1: It's very hard to admit.

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Speaker 2: I love the part in the book where your wife

428
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Speaker 2: says you're being a bit grumpy and say, I'm not

429
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Speaker 2: fucking grumpy.

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Speaker 3: Who has never said that?

431
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Speaker 1: It's just beautiful, because in that moment I wasn't.

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Speaker 3: What's worse in my house is when the partner and

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Speaker 3: then the kids all put up their hand. Who thinks

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Speaker 3: he's and three of them, four of them. Okay, it's

435
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Speaker 3: getting hard to believe that I'm the only one who

436
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,440
Speaker 3: doesn't see it that way.

437
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know.

438
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 3: So that issue being sensy about the social environment, things

439
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 3: that are happening, and it is this may happen at work,

440
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 3: it may happen people you're close to, which matters in

441
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 3: terms of having good friends and relationships where you can

442
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 3: take and except on the other side, the sort of

443
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 3: James and I discussed a lot about the physiological symptoms,

444
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 3: the physical symptoms, and one of the problems in the

445
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 3: mental health world is to think it's all about what

446
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 3: you're thinking. We're talking today about body clocks and a

447
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 3: sense of jet lag, a sense of fatigue. I's got

448
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,439
Speaker 3: no energy for anything. It don't feel right. You know,

449
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 3: I feel sick and I just don't feel well. And

450
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 3: in fact, the main reason people go to doctors with

451
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 3: mental health problems is not to say I'm psychologically struggling.

452
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 3: They are saying I got no energy. I just can't

453
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 3: concentrate on things. I just can't get I just not

454
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 3: into stuff anymore, and the doctor goes, Okay, blood tests,

455
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 3: everything else go hang on.

456
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 4: Or the other side of it is anxiety, where everything's

457
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 4: you feel the adrenaline, you know that thing I know

458
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 4: I was thinking of the first time I got in

459
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,679
Speaker 4: trouble at school. That feeling of the energy is just

460
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 4: flowing through you. You can't relax, So that's kind of

461
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 4: the opposite that.

462
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 3: Again, well the two go together and discussing in terms

463
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 3: of disturbed sleep cycles. If you don't, if you're really

464
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 3: anxious and aroused, you have trouble going to sleep and

465
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 3: staying asleep, and you wake up the next eye they

466
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 3: bugg it and then you're still. So you haven't turned

467
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 3: off during the night. You need to turn on during

468
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 3: the day to concentrate. You need to turn off. If

469
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 3: every anxious arouse chronically stressed, which is really bad. People

470
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 3: talk about acute stresses all the time the one bad

471
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 3: thing that happened. Actually, chronic stress is much worse. If

472
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 3: you're in a bad relationship that keeps going, you're in

473
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 3: financial trouble, you've got responsibilities caring for someone, and there's

474
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 3: a day every day is really stressful. That's a much

475
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 3: bigger risk factor, in fact, for mental health problems than

476
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 3: the acute bad event that happens, and people don't recognize it.

477
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: They just kind of live with it. Their everyday health deteriorates.

478
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 4: The best description of it is a Stephen Wright joke

479
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 4: where he says, you know that feeling where you tip

480
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 4: back on your chair and you're nearly overbalanced, but you

481
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 4: just catch it. I feel like that all the time.

482
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 4: That is the feeling of being chronic.

483
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 3: Chronically anxious and on edge. And then there's a straw

484
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 3: that breaks the camel's back. I mean exambos all the time.

485
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 3: His blokes who go to the doctor, you know, just

486
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 3: lost their job, wife just left them. They go, oh,

487
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 3: well that's the reason he's Unwill you go gass wife

488
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 3: for the workplace he's been slipping for the last three years.

489
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 3: And the final straw he was in trouble at work,

490
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 3: he's in trouble in the relationship. He was drinking more,

491
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 3: he's causing more trouble. Yeah, fine, everyone else has had enough.

492
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 3: And then the people go, oh it to that event.

493
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 3: That event is the consequence of a much longer period.

494
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 3: So these things where your social function deteriorates, your physical health,

495
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 3: deteriorating your relationships, and I think James points really important

496
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 3: chronically on edge is exhausting. Yeah, you know, so you've

497
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: got to get this right in every twenty four hours.

498
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 4: But one really easy way, and I try and do

499
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 4: it every day, is just think to myself, what am

500
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 4: I out of ten? And it's really easy, and you know,

501
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 4: sometimes it's an eight, and sometimes it's seven, and sometimes

502
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 4: it's a five. And it's just I mean, with data,

503
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 4: and if you feel you might be going through a

504
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 4: challenging thing, just open a note on your phone and

505
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 4: every day, maybe twice a day, just note where you

506
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: are out of ten. Then you look at it after

507
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 4: a week and you say, wow, average six and six

508
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 4: point five. I reckon, it's normally higher than that. And

509
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 4: it just with data you can really because you know,

510
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 4: you would have had this experience going to a psychologist

511
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 4: and someone saying how you been feeling the last month?

512
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 4: Then you go, ah, okay, that's not data, there's just

513
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 4: some vague impression. If you can open up and say

514
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 4: week one, I was seven point two out of ten,

515
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 4: Week two I was five point five, it's so much

516
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 4: more valuable to you and to them.

517
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: One thing I learned, and I did exactly that I

518
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 2: would give myself out of five of anxiety. And one

519
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 2: of the things that was very valuable with that for

520
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 2: me was to notice that it was cyclical yep. And

521
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 2: because when you're in it, as far as you're concerned,

522
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 2: it's permanent. It's personal, and it's global, it's it's this

523
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 2: is how it's going to be forever. Yeah, And that

524
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 2: can lead you to start thinking of some very permanent

525
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: solutions to what is ultimately a temporary problem. So as

526
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: I would go and go, okay, so it was four

527
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 2: and a half five, like terrible, terrible, terrible, but then

528
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 2: a week later it was like, well it's two okay.

529
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: Then I would go back and look and go it

530
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 2: doesn't stay that way. So when I'm in it, yeah, nice,

531
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 2: I have to realize, Ah, the thing that my brain's

532
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: telling me this is how it's always going to be

533
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: isn't actually real because it always changes?

534
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 4: Would it even say it averages three and a half hours,

535
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 4: for example, might be a bit longer, might be a

536
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 4: bit shorter about there's light there.

537
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: And there's things that I can do to shorten that out.

538
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: But that's something that people might and you do recommend

539
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 2: that in the book. People might have never done that before.

540
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: It's important to realize there's a brain trick behind that

541
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 3: as well, which is a state dependent learning idea. So

542
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: when you're depressed, you can only remember the times you

543
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 3: were depressed.

544
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 5: You actually you go back into that feeling. Oh, that's

545
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 5: that's how I am.

546
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: It's the opposite of hedonic recall exactly as well.

547
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 3: It's the anadonic. Okay, it's the no pleasure really yeah.

548
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 3: So it's a state dependent learning thing. If you learn

549
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: things in a certain state, then when you're in that

550
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 3: state again.

551
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 5: You recall them again.

552
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 3: Okay, So this is a and the downside is exactly that.

553
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 3: So a great friend, Neil Cole, has bipolar disorder, talks

554
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 3: about the suicidality thing that returns like a black cloud

555
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 3: right into his life.

556
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 5: And what you've got to remember.

557
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 3: Is it's like clouds. It blows over the next day,

558
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 3: but when you're in it, you don't. You think it

559
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 3: rains every day, you think it's pouring every day. You

560
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 3: think suicidality is there everyne doesn't exist. That's right, and

561
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 3: you've got to really got to have a different strategy.

562
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 3: As you've just pointed out. To recall that, you've also

563
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: pointed out something really important, the cyclical patterns of many

564
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 3: of these things. Many of them do come and go,

565
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: and James, I are often discussing for reasons we don't understand. Okay,

566
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 3: but that's true. Different people have different patterns, short and

567
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: longer in patterns. There may be some things we know about,

568
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 3: like seasonality or different things or some other life circumstances

569
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 3: that correlate with those patterns, but often they don't.

570
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: But no, it's a correlation.

571
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: It's it's professor talk the two.

572
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,959
Speaker 3: So humans have this phenomena called effort after meaning we

573
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 3: always have an explanation even though it may have no relationship.

574
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 3: So you know, you can be praying to a god

575
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: for things to change, nothing ever changes.

576
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 5: One day they change.

577
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 3: You go, oh, because I prayed today, See God did

578
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: he said, God didn't do it the other fifteen times?

579
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 3: Do you think they're not related? No, this is proof

580
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 3: on that particular day, it's true. Now this is from

581
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: a brain point of view, really made a sched of

582
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: your earlier point. We make assertions all the time that

583
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: we understand what is driving our mental health or deteriorations

584
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: or improvements. James, Often we want to know why people

585
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 3: get better, I said, I actually want to know why

586
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: people don't get better, Like why doesn't things flip back

587
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: to normal? And there's a lot of things we do

588
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 3: not understand about the way the brain deals with these

589
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 3: states except to pick up your initial point. The brain

590
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 3: tricks us into believing they're permanent. And so if you

591
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: don't monitor, if you don't track, you don't have an

592
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 3: accurate record. This is true of depression, it is true

593
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: of pain, it's true of a whole lot of other things.

594
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 3: That the tracking provides a light bulb moment for many people.

595
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 3: Guess what this does, come and go. If I can

596
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: survive today, it will be different tomorrow.

597
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 4: A really interesting example of the causation thing is when

598
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: people have their first panic attack, for example, in a

599
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 4: shopping mall. They then think, okay, well, shopping malls brings

600
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 4: on panic attacks. So entering a shopping mall makes some

601
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 4: nervous about having a panic attack, which makes them more

602
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 4: likely to have a panic attack, Whereas really it's got

603
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 4: a thing to do with the shopping mall and just

604
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 4: happen there.

605
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: We have to point out we and Pavlov's dogs have

606
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 3: a lot in common. You know, ringing bells and salivating

607
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 3: have nothing to do with each other but the piece

608
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 3: of meat in between and your associate.

609
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 5: So this is how we learn as humans.

610
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 3: We actually take correlations things that just happen to happen

611
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 3: in a certain sequence, and believe it doesn't matter if

612
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 3: you're a dog or a human, and that happens often enough,

613
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 3: you'll have that. So the classic is with panic attacks

614
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 3: and situation.

615
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: But it's the same in relationships.

616
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: We think that first six weeks wherever we're just rooting NonStop,

617
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: we just think this is how it's going to be forever.

618
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: I'm clearly in yes, let's move in and.

619
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 4: Claims that that first six weeks the mental state has

620
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 4: a lot in common with mental illness.

621
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 3: Well, let's just say perception is altered. Okay, but in

622
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 3: a way then humans is interesting. Well, it has another

623
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 3: phenomena oxytocin stuff. It has a bonding thing. I mean

624
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 3: humans More importantly, reproduction has an advantage if adults stick

625
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 3: around and take care of very small children. No, there's

626
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 3: this bonding thing goes on. So human relationships are very tight.

627
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: There's a very strong biochemical brain bit underneath it which

628
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: makes humans stick together. I mean, why do we care

629
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 3: about our families and kids know so much? You know,

630
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: it's some of them don't always deserve it. Let's just

631
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 3: say that, but we do, you know, And humans are

632
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 3: social animals, and of course as a species this has

633
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 3: been critical to our survivor because actually we're not that fast,

634
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: we're not that strong, we're not that smart, some would say,

635
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 3: you know, but we've got this very strong social attachment stuff.

636
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: Other side of that, when relationships break apart, they're very painful.

637
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: They're very difficult for us. So you want to be

638
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 3: a good mental health can you say are you okay?

639
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 3: But I would say more often you should say are

640
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 3: we okay? Are the groups were in actually functioning? Because

641
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 3: very hard to be mentally well yourself if the people

642
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: you really care about are.

643
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: Not Taking a break from Ian and James back in

644
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: a moment we mentioned groups, and it's kind of one

645
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: of the reasons why I've come later in life to

646
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: really really loving sport, because I kind of want to

647
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: feel I want to feel like I have something in

648
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: common with people I'll never know personally.

649
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: As as societies in the kind.

650
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: Of modern industrialized world, modern economies get more and more

651
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,959
Speaker 2: and more secular, we get to this and disconnected from

652
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: each other. We get to this fracturing, this kind of disconnection.

653
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: So when it comes to people who aren't your family,

654
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: what are the benefits of finding a group of people

655
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: that aren't your family too, I guess to be involved with,

656
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: but also to be accountable to.

657
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: That's a great question, James, You and the tennis club

658
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: come on. Always real friends turn up.

659
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 5: Who are they?

660
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 4: It's a great question because there was a large part

661
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 4: of my life where I thought I don't need them.

662
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 4: I've got my family, They're all I ever wanted. I've

663
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 4: got a decent career that I like. I kind of

664
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 4: like spending a bit of time on my own. I

665
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: don't have time for friends, and I realized a few

666
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 4: years ago that I was missing out on some big time.

667
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 4: No matter how much you love your family, and care

668
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 4: about them. You also want to talk to them about people,

669
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 4: and you want to let off steam, and then you

670
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 4: want to I think the best friends are those you

671
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 4: feel utterly safe and unguarded with. When you feel safe

672
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 4: with people, it is so wonderful. I feel safe with

673
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 4: my family. But I've now got friends who we got

674
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 4: a tennis group. I think I love activities. I played

675
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 4: touch footy, I played tennis. I've got groups that are

676
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 4: all about activities. But then we talk after and it's

677
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 4: and it's good. Yeah.

678
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: Just on the kids side of this, I mean personally

679
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: hopeless of sport, but I appreciate the fact I was

680
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: forced to play team sports when I was young, just

681
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: by being hopeless at them and that experience I think

682
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: of being part of a team, being part of a group.

683
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 5: We have a lot of discussions about what is affecting.

684
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 3: The mental health of young people so much these days,

685
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: and I'm on the group that says social disconnection less

686
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: and less of these experience as kids are having smaller families,

687
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 3: more could busy parents that they're really critical in development.

688
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: They're outside your family there with others that are in

689
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 3: wider groups. Kids do did used to be more likely

690
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: part of sports teams, community groups, church groups, the social

691
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: group bit of knowing where you were, where you were from,

692
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 3: what you were part of, and there were these people

693
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 3: and they've been friends for life.

694
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 5: There's sort of stuff.

695
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: So despite these sort of attack on social media and

696
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 3: many other things, I think it's the disconnection thing. We

697
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 3: have quite a lot of evidence about this social cohesion bit,

698
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 3: and it matters not just when you're young. And James example,

699
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 3: at a recent event, we had all his tennis mates

700
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: turned up and all see what a great poigy is

701
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 3: and I went, hey, on a second, yes, yes you know.

702
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,239
Speaker 3: No I didn't say to you because they don't talk

703
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: about that, but they turn up, as you said, they're engaged.

704
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 4: It's an example of almost what I think is the

705
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 4: good mental health superpower that is so blindingly obvious everyone

706
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 4: overlooks it. And then we talk about sleep and we

707
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 4: talk about this and socializing and physical exercise. Fine things

708
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 4: you enjoy and do more of the men. For a

709
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 4: long time, I didn't realize how much I enjoyed my friends.

710
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 4: Now I do, and it's they're really an important part

711
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 4: of my life. But whatever it is you enjoy, whether

712
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 4: it's walking alone in the sun or listening to music.

713
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 4: We sometimes, particularly when we get busy in stress. They're

714
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 4: the things that go right. And so you know, you

715
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 4: can get all the science you like, but if there

716
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 4: was something you enjoy, do more of it, do it weekly,

717
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 4: do it four times a week, and your mental health

718
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 4: will get better.

719
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 5: So we have promoted of pleasure seeking.

720
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 3: People need to seek pleasure in their life and come

721
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 3: back to the twenty four hour cycle. You can't say

722
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to enjoy myself at Christmas or next year,

723
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to go on a long holiday, but the

724
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: next six months is going to be dreadful.

725
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a terrible way to live.

726
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 4: And sometimes we feel such duty, don't we like create

727
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 4: a family obligation data DA. They're the things that go

728
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 4: We almost feel this puritan sort of well that's just

729
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 4: something I enjoy. I'll get rid of that. But think

730
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 4: of it as as as important as as sleep and

731
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: good diet.

732
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: I think, And it's never it's very rarely framed like

733
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: that can be. You know, sometimes be like, oh, I'm

734
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: not being the best dad I can be because I'm

735
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: not here with my kids. Why am I not playing

736
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: tennis with my kids? Why do I have to go

737
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: play tennis with those guys. You know, why am I

738
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: not having doubles with my partner? Why am I playing

739
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,479
Speaker 2: with somebody else? What is the benefit of seeking that

740
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: time of us by ourselves as an individual in a

741
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: group that isn't our family.

742
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: People outside your family have different perspectives. You know, they

743
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: see you differently. You're not so at home your tend

744
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 3: and in relationships you get a bit stereodubbed as to

745
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: the way you're seen and the way you behave and

746
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: the way things kind of happen. James and I talk

747
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 3: about another thing which is kind of novelty. Okay, these

748
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: are people with different lives in different ways stuff's happening

749
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 3: to them. You know, you need stuff not to be

750
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: just boring and predictable and repetitive, just not getting into

751
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: a rut about things. And different groups of people have

752
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 3: different things, different things happen, different things.

753
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 5: So there's also not.

754
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: Just from parts of you, because exploring the wider world.

755
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: You know, we live long lives now, hopefully most of us,

756
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 3: long before the biological reproduction evolutionary cared about the first

757
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 3: twenty five thirty years. You know, people living sixty seventy

758
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 3: eighty years. You know, they need to be doing different things,

759
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 3: and part of it's different social relationships, different workpoint James James'

760
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 3: jobs regularly.

761
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 4: Well, there's another angle on this. One of my favorite

762
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 4: chapters in the book is about autonomy and social compromise

763
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 4: and social connection. So we've just talked about how important

764
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 4: social connection is, but if you think about it, whenever

765
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 4: you're connected to others, particularly if you live with them,

766
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 4: your autonomy, which is also really important for good mental health,

767
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 4: freedom to make your own decisions, is to a degree compromised.

768
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 4: I'm part of a group. We negotiate what do we

769
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 4: have for dinner, where do we go on holidays? Who

770
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 4: takes the bins out? There's negotiations all the time. So

771
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 4: having that autonomy away from the group to think, right,

772
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 4: it's up to me what I do for the next hour,

773
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 4: whether I sit on the couch or go for a run.

774
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 4: To me, that's really really in imported and makes me

775
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 4: a better group member. Knowing that I've had some time

776
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 4: that balances it where I'm in charge, or.

777
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 5: At least I think I'm making the choice.

778
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: Yes, well, yeah, these are really interesting.

779
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: Four more hours on free will.

780
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,479
Speaker 3: But This is a really important point because people often say,

781
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 3: and people with strong social obligations else, I can't make

782
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: any decision for myself. I can't really decide that for myself.

783
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 3: I can't really do that for myself. You go, you're golfish,

784
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: and selfishness arises, and I say to people all the time,

785
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 3: you are not selfish. You're actually being responsible for yourself,

786
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 3: and a lot of people who find themselves in these

787
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: situation that's really important to get, you know what. You've

788
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 3: got to get certain aspects of this under control, and

789
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: that means making decisions for yourself, getting it sorted, being responsible,

790
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 3: not being selfish, and the times that's going to put

791
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 3: you in some degree of conflict. Maybe you're conflict with

792
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 3: your own sense of yourself. Oh I must fit in.

793
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 3: I must do what everyone else wants. They must be

794
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 3: what everyone else wants me to be, even though that's

795
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: incredibly frustrating and not really who you are. You don't

796
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,479
Speaker 3: really fit in.

797
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: With that, which kind of it's an interesting point just then,

798
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: because you did you talk a bit about this in

799
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: the book talk about boundaries, yes, which is something I

800
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 2: was saying to my psyche yesterday.

801
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: Something I discovered at thirty seven. Yea well better than

802
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: the boundaries when I read a book and went.

803
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

804
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 2: So if someone else in the room is upset, I

805
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: don't also need to get upset.

806
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 3: Oh sounds good.

807
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know that was the thing.

808
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah right, And so what can we you know, we're

809
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: older people, but there's younger people in our lives. What

810
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: can we do for the younger people? Analyves or people

811
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: who for this is news to what can we do

812
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: to start to, you know, describe how boundaries can work

813
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 2: and why they're useful and perhaps not seen as selfish,

814
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: which they might be seen.

815
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: I think this is the kind of you when you

816
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 3: are young and you're wanting to fit in. You don't

817
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 3: want to get along with everybody. You know, there's a

818
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 3: kind of sense of okay, what's required, and it may.

819
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 5: Not fit me very well.

820
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: So see is particularly again with young men joining groups,

821
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 3: being part of something, and then adopting the attitudes. A

822
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: lot of discussion about young men at the moment, where

823
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 3: do they fit in or not fit in? And why

824
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 3: does some man of them appear to adopt let's just

825
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 3: say some rather any social attitudes top very pro social.

826
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: But they're fitting in with groups, they're doing what everyone's doing.

827
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 3: They're trying to find an identity. But you got to

828
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: sort this out, like what's me, what suits me? And

829
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 3: I'm prepared to go no, no, no, that i do

830
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 3: want to be part of groups, but I've also got

831
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 3: to be me, you know, got to be naturally and

832
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 3: that's it's very hard four thirty seven. Like I say,

833
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 3: you just covered it young. Many people take a good

834
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: decade or two more. Some never get there, you know,

835
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 3: to have this balance constantly between Okay, this is me

836
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 3: and my responsibility. I'm not being selfish, I'm just really

837
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: trying to fit in. And if you're struggling with your

838
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: mental health and other things, becomes even more important to

839
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 3: know where your limits are, what you can do, what's

840
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: your responsibility, what's under your control, and what is the

841
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 3: extent to which it's not your business and you can

842
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: separate yourself out from that and you're not responsible for it.

843
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 4: I think the thing about boundaries is that you often

844
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 4: don't think about them or work out what they are

845
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 4: until there comes a point where it feels like they're

846
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 4: being transgressed, where someone's getting too close, where someone's asking

847
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 4: you about something that's quite personal and you don't know them.

848
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 4: When someone's putting their hand on your shoulder and you

849
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 4: don't feel comfortable, that's when you start to think about boundaries.

850
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 4: But I you know, it's useful, I think, and we

851
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 4: kind of go through all the different sorts in the

852
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 4: book to just have a bit of a think about

853
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 4: your emotional boundaries, your physical boundaries, your work about boundaries.

854
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 4: You know, if your boss ask you to work all

855
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 4: saturday or all weekend, do you have boundaries there? How

856
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 4: do you have those difficult conversations rather than to wait

857
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: until the crisis happens and then try and work out.

858
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 3: You've got to have a pretty good idea yourself what

859
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 3: you are comfortable with and what you're not and not

860
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: just get talked into something or socially grouped pressured into something,

861
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 3: which having with so many young men all the time.

862
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 4: I've better do it or else.

863
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 5: The guys they're going to.

864
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: Leave me out. They're not going to ask me again,

865
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: no one's going to ever ring back. They're needing to

866
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 3: demonstrate stuff like to take it. It's really inappropriate. And

867
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: we're seeing this a lot and the new media communication

868
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 3: forms sort of encourage this because the more outrageous, the

869
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 3: more stuff that was private becomes public in order to

870
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 3: seek sort of stuff, you know, really challenges the way

871
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 3: we are as humans. We really exist in other small

872
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 3: world networks of great trust between people that's built up

873
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 3: slowly and progressively before revealing or before being willing to

874
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 3: cross certain lines, which is really important to the genuine

875
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: depth of those relationships and the sustainability of those relationships.

876
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 3: There's a real challenge in the modern world. The anger,

877
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 3: outrage stuff, the yelling and screaming and abusive stuff. You know,

878
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: you wouldn't do that in normal social relationships. The feedback

879
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 3: if you're in the room with people constrains people a

880
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: great deal. I mean, this is the thing in the

881
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 3: modern media world. Of course, emotionality of it, the nature

882
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 3: of the emotional thing is more engaging. What people believe

883
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 3: in the first instance is much more an emotional response,

884
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 3: So immediate actions are often an emotional response. Then we

885
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 3: need to do what humors do and James would encourage

886
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: we should stop and think about it, so you know,

887
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: what were the consequences of that, what happened, and was

888
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: that a smart thing to do or not?

889
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: We can so.

890
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 4: A good example is a classic situation we have an

891
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 4: argument with your partner and before you know it, you've

892
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 4: said something just because anger or ralph, irritation or frustration

893
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 4: rises really quickly. It's overwhelming. You say something immediately you think.

894
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 3: Oh, that was so stupid. I'm going to be why

895
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: did I say that?

896
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 4: But then you tend to rationally post justified, post rationalize it, like,

897
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 4: of course I was justified in saying that because da

898
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 4: da dah, and she did this and she did that,

899
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 4: Whereas really the sensible thing to do then is to realize. Okay,

900
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 4: so we've argued many many times before, it's often about

901
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: the same thing. What are the early warnings signs? How

902
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 4: often when I lose my temper and say something do

903
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 4: I regret it? Every single time?

904
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: So?

905
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 4: What am I going to do early, early, early, early

906
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 4: before when I can first feel the emotionality rising before

907
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,919
Speaker 4: it overwhelms me. What am I going to do then?

908
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 4: And the answer is usually go.

909
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 5: For a walk.

910
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 4: Let's talk about this later.

911
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be very hard to disengage.

912
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 3: Those sometimes no but learning and then the book all

913
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 3: says behave differently, do differently. Well, it's funny thing saying

914
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: the world I'm in, but James knows this. I don't

915
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 3: like to listen a lot. I prefer that people do

916
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 3: different before they tell me the same old story about

917
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 3: the same old argument. I will say, did you walk out?

918
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 3: Did you stop? Like you've done that twenty times? Can

919
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 3: you do different and see whether the consequences were different?

920
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 3: You can tell them, And that thing provokes a certain

921
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: rapid emotion. Now in your anger, it's only going to

922
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 3: do harm, it's only going to be worse off. You're

923
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 3: only going to regret it. Can you stop it? Can

924
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: you walk away?

925
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 4: My favorite two sentences in the book are motivation is

926
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 4: just to feel. It doesn't do anything, So you can

927
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 4: be as motivated as you like, but that it's kind

928
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 4: of irrelevant. Either you act differently or you don't. And

929
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 4: either you do something differently or you don't, and motivation

930
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 4: inevitably fade.

931
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 3: So when you do differently, you often feel differently. People

932
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 3: assume you've got to feel differently or think differently before

933
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 3: you do differently. So we talk about this notion to

934
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 3: addiction and all sorts of things. If you do different

935
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 3: or you stop doing things, you then feel different. Is

936
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 3: it really interesting? In the depression world, you know, get

937
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 3: people to do stuff. They then feel better as a

938
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 3: consequence of having been active or done something or attended

939
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: something that didn't want. I'm not going to enjoy that.

940
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 3: I'm not going there. It'll be no pleasure in it.

941
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 5: They went, I was it.

942
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 3: I was actually quite enjoyable, you know, realizing that the

943
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: action can lead to different motions and different thoughts. And

944
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: then the really important thing, which James raises constantly, which

945
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 3: we don't do enough of, is reflect on that. Okay,

946
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: document that I did that differently. I did get out

947
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 3: of bed, I did go to that event. I did

948
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: enjoy it, I did feel better, which is what you.

949
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's important to remember that stuff. And then you

950
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: reflect on that enough times and the initial fear or

951
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: worry that gets you back in that loop starts to fade,

952
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 2: and soon enough you now automatically do differently well and

953
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: do for you.

954
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 3: So one of my favorite clinical things is people come

955
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,479
Speaker 3: along and they show me evidence. I did what you said,

956
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 3: doctor Ickey, it didn't work, So don't say the same

957
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 3: thing again. Okay, I know that generally is a good idea.

958
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 3: It doesn't work for me. But here's this thing we

959
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 3: found or I found that does work. Okay, good, Let's

960
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: keep experimenting and find the thing or things or comment

961
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 3: that do work. Coming back to an earlier thing, the

962
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 3: things that you really do enjoy or in the contrast,

963
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 3: the things that really do set you off or not.

964
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 5: So you're much more aware.

965
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 3: And I think this is where the mental health world

966
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 3: is a bit different to the physical health world. Some

967
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 3: of these things are quite specific that we're genetically different

968
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: in our backgrounds, are different who we are.

969
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 5: The whole makeup isn't very simple.

970
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 3: Tell the story quite And I'm the son of a

971
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 3: professor of cardiology. I just have an argument with my dad.

972
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: Who'd be interested in the heart. It's the dumbest organ

973
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 3: in the body. It's got four little things in an

974
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 3: electrical system. It's just so dumb. If it stops, you're

975
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 3: in big trouble. But it's intellectually really dumb.

976
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 5: But it's quite similar from person to person. Okay.

977
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 3: The brain and mental health is really quite different. The

978
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 3: genetics of this, where I spent a lot of my life,

979
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 3: is incredibly complicated. The structure, the whole ways which brains.

980
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 3: We've got no idea how brains really deal with information.

981
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 3: We know something about what they do as sells, and

982
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: something about what they do chemically, but how they actually

983
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 3: process information remains quite a mystery, you know. So, And

984
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 3: the variation from person to person is huge because you

985
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 3: start out genetically different. Then we all have stacks of

986
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 3: different experiences as we grow up and as we continue

987
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 3: throughout life. Our brain is responding continuously to different environments

988
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 3: and to illness in different ways. So this variation is huge,

989
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 3: meaning the struggle to find what works best for each

990
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 3: of us is a real challenge.

991
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: It all moves across our lives. He's not set in stone,

992
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: that permanent thing that brains do. They can feel that

993
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: way about ourselves, they can feel that way about other people.

994
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 2: And he's never going to change. That's who he's all going.

995
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 2: It's going to be forever. That's not exactly true.

996
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: Oh, this is such a great topic because we talked

997
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 3: about this end. See what can you change and what

998
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 3: can't you change? So we all have temperaments, We have

999
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 3: a sort of Now this may surprise you, but James

1000
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 3: and I both confess we're naturally shy. We're naturally shy people,

1001
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: but we've learned and have experiences changed ours stand up

1002
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 3: comedy and broadcasting, and I do it for amount of

1003
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: public speaking. We've learned skills and things to do of

1004
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 3: the benefit of being more engaged despite our normal temperament

1005
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: which would sort of back off. So we can and

1006
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 3: we learn and we can change, and that affects us.

1007
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 3: So this is really important, the change. When I was

1008
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: a young medical student doctor, we had this idea about

1009
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 3: the brain being set at birth certain number of neurons

1010
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 3: and after that they just sort of died off. Try

1011
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: to hang on to everyone you had, they get pruned.

1012
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: And pruning going on here.

1013
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: Well, actually the signaps the connections between brains. Wiggling my

1014
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: fingers here, The connections between it are growing every day

1015
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 3: right across your whole life. And you don't necessarily lose

1016
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 3: all those connections just cause you age or you do different.

1017
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 3: So novelty change. Engagement causes that stuff, you know, to

1018
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 3: keep growing. It doesn't just prune once in adolescence and

1019
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 3: that's it. So being engaged is critical to brain health.

1020
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 3: And the brain itself is changing. So the behavior that's

1021
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: a consequence, the mood that's a consequence. Illness patterns are

1022
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: changeable against a background of a kind of temperamental set

1023
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 3: of characteristics which are a bit more ingrained.

1024
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: Just need to take a break from James and back

1025
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: in a sack.

1026
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: The idea that and you do talk about this in

1027
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 2: the book, that mental health is a spectrum. And anyone

1028
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 2: who's felt they're on the other side of a flu

1029
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: but not quite there yet. We'll know the feeling like, oh,

1030
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: the worst is over. Give me another week and I'll

1031
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: be the tickle of my throat will be gone like that.

1032
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: But that's the same way our brains.

1033
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: We can be in these peak moments and be on

1034
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: the other side of it, or something can come on

1035
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: very quickly. We don't think we're going to have the

1036
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: flu forever. We know it will pass right, So similarly,

1037
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: it's important to understand that it does come and go.

1038
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: It's a bold move to say, here's a.

1039
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: Book that is the instruction manual for your brain.

1040
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: Off your go, But I'm glad you did it because

1041
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: it brings the concept of it's it's probably not great

1042
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 2: that we're not like a lot of the stuff that's

1043
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 2: in here was taken care of my cultural practices, whether

1044
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: they be religious or otherwise. There was groups that weren't

1045
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: your family involved there was ritual, there was you know,

1046
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 2: there was rites of passage for you know, teenage boys.

1047
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 2: There was all kinds of stuff that was taken care

1048
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: of our cultural practices in many, many ways, it evolved.

1049
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: Out of necessity.

1050
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: But as that kind of goes away, the idea that

1051
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: actually some of this stuff you're actually going to have

1052
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: to learn for yourself, I think it's really quite valuable.

1053
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 1: It's a bold move.

1054
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 4: Chaps, well, it might have been bold, but I mean, essentially,

1055
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,959
Speaker 4: we really want it to be empowering. It is such

1056
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 4: a wonderful feeling, and you might have experienced it yourself.

1057
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 4: I certainly have of thinking five years ago when this

1058
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 4: happened it was just like the world's caving in. There's

1059
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 4: a bit of that at the moment. But I know

1060
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 4: there are things I can do, and I know there

1061
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 4: are ways I can take control. And we kind of

1062
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 4: think everyone deserves really the opportunity to get the benefits

1063
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 4: that taking control of their mental health will arm them with.

1064
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 4: And it's just so really so sad that so many

1065
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 4: people have things that will help them if they go

1066
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 4: on a bit of a journey of discovery, but haven't

1067
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 4: yet found what they are, And so there they're suffering

1068
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 4: in ways that they don't have to.

1069
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 3: I think you said a really important thing that people

1070
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 3: don't realize. What's really changed. Cultural practices weren't just cultural.

1071
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 3: James and I have discussed this about the evolution of culture.

1072
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 3: Now the animals have cultural practices. They're essential to survival.

1073
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 3: So we had many things which are in the group.

1074
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 3: You didn't need to know. You didn't have to know

1075
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 3: but to share a group thing. So for a lot

1076
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 3: of men, a lot of boys who did grow up

1077
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 3: playing team sport, knew what to do. They joined companies

1078
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 3: or professions where they stayed in the thing for life.

1079
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: They had a clear path, they had an identity, it

1080
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 3: was clear what they did next.

1081
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 5: There were rules that went with that. You know, it

1082
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 5: was easier.

1083
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 3: There was less autonomy, but the cultural practices to be

1084
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 3: kind of well and be pro socialized were clearly set out.

1085
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: Now we have much more autonomy. We can make lots

1086
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 3: of different choices, but a lot of what we need

1087
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 3: to stay well has got lost in that and we

1088
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 3: haven't necessarily acquired that information unless you've got a really

1089
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: good grandparent or mentor or other person. I say to

1090
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 3: many people, one of my valuable things they can do

1091
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 3: is mentor other people's kids. I'm personally very famous amongst

1092
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 3: everyone except my own kids. My own kids say you

1093
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 3: are a rotten dad, But there's a bunch of other

1094
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 3: people think.

1095
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 5: I'm quite good.

1096
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 3: I'm somebody else's favorite page of the aunt, you know,

1097
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 3: and somebody else I get on with, which is kind

1098
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 3: of interesting because it's a temperament issue. But it's also

1099
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 3: this advantage of often you can be incredibly helpful with

1100
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: other people's kids if you're in a trusting group of

1101
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 3: friends and everything else. It's a broader village of course

1102
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 3: kind of concept. So it's cultural and social and we

1103
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 3: have lost a lot of that, or it's just not

1104
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 3: as clear.

1105
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 4: Well, the other way of looking at it is that

1106
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 4: when we used to live in tribes, when we used

1107
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 4: to live in villages, a lot of our mental health

1108
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 4: was almost in somebody's automatically regulated, taken care of by

1109
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 4: the group. You couldn't avoid the group. But guess what,

1110
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 4: life's change. We're not going back there. It's not happening.

1111
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 4: We're that's the answer, though, So then how do we adapt?

1112
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 4: What do we do differently? And hopefully in the book

1113
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 4: we've set out some of the things that people can

1114
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 4: do differently, that is taking more responsibility for their own

1115
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 4: mental health and give them a bit of a guide

1116
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 4: as to how to go about that, because if the

1117
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 4: group isn't going to be as centrally important, then it's

1118
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 4: up to us.

1119
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 5: So let's also share as you're doing.

1120
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 3: It's still really brave to share one's own experiences. James

1121
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 3: is in Our empiret all the time talks about his

1122
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 3: own experiences in that area. The fact that somebody like

1123
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 3: yourself was just pretended to talk about their own experiences.

1124
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 3: I was a community meeting just this week, and my

1125
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 3: part was talking about the particular thing and the importance

1126
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 3: of social queens for mental health, and somebody got up

1127
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 3: and said and said something about one of her own family,

1128
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 3: and then afterwards she said, you know what, that's the

1129
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 3: first time I've ever told anyone else in public how

1130
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 3: I've struggled. I'm this member of my own family struggled.

1131
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 3: And I said, look, it's so important to actually discuss

1132
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 3: these things. So it's kind of obvious, but it's still

1133
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 3: hard to go beyond, well, go beyond just a general

1134
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 3: oh yeah, we should do more about that, to actually

1135
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 3: what does that mean, how what's happening, you know in

1136
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 3: the own particular situation, what could we do? And to

1137
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 3: share that information, like we share all sorts of other information,

1138
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 3: and there.

1139
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 4: Are still heaps of people that don't get it unfortunately,

1140
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 4: Like you know, when you're one giveaways when people say, oh,

1141
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 4: yem afhew, he had mental health, you know, and that

1142
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 4: means he had something wrong with his mental health. And

1143
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 4: whenever I hear someone like that, I don't because I'm

1144
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 4: you know, timid, but I feel let's say everyone's got

1145
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 4: mental health. He didn't just have mental health. You've got

1146
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 4: a mental health and maybe you should think about yours

1147
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 4: more and forget your nephew, you know what I mean.

1148
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 4: It's just such a it's like an other ring thing.

1149
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 4: He had mental health, saying he had a leg. Yeah,

1150
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 4: he had a leg too, you got them.

1151
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: That's really important action. I'm gread you said that because

1152
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 3: that nonspecific kind of thing and he's an othering.

1153
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 5: Othering is exactly the right phrase.

1154
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 3: James. I make the comment about investing in relationships because

1155
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 3: you're going to need them in times of adversity.

1156
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 5: That's when you know you're really struggling yourself.

1157
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 3: You better hope that you've invested in the stuff around

1158
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 3: you to help you kind of deal with that, because

1159
00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 3: we're all going to have periods in our life and

1160
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 3: expression in my world, which is life is tough and

1161
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 3: then you die. You know, adversity is.

1162
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 1: Going to say that. But both of parents were doctors.

1163
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: My mom used to.

1164
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 4: Say that, Well, that's the other reason you need friends.

1165
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 4: You need to invest in your friends in described it

1166
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 4: as being like insurance. You pay your premium hoping you'll

1167
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 4: never need them. But it's really hard if you've led

1168
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 4: all your friendship slip because of your career and your

1169
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 4: family to go. By the way, you know, we haven't

1170
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 4: spoken fifteen years. My wife's left me. But if you

1171
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 4: invest in your friendships, when the inevitable crisis comes, they're there.

1172
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot of people, and this is

1173
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 3: true these days, believe adversity.

1174
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 5: Isn't going to happen.

1175
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 3: Like they're surprised by illness, they're surprised by sickness, they're

1176
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 3: surprised by losing their jobs. And we have this idea

1177
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 3: we're going to protect against mental health problems by having

1178
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 3: no events in people's lives. We're going to get rid

1179
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 3: of high school studio. We're going to get rid of adversity.

1180
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 1: Nothing child will win the trophy.

1181
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: Every child will win, every child will score a try,

1182
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 3: every child will win the trophy.

1183
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 5: It will all only be good.

1184
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 4: Guess what will never get sacked? You'll never die, You'll

1185
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 4: never get.

1186
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 3: Guess what it's going to happen? Yeah, you know, and

1187
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 3: then you will die at the end of it. You know.

1188
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 5: So we know that.

1189
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 3: So the issue is not trying to pretend that things

1190
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 3: don't happen, or simply saying the cause of everything is

1191
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 3: things happening. Things happen all the time. How we respond

1192
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 3: to that? How quickly we can put ourselves together individually?

1193
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 3: Do we have skills? And then do you have the

1194
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: social resources to do it? That's the real question, very famous,

1195
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 3: says Pschiatry researches many more.

1196
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 5: Than forty years ago.

1197
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 3: Getting unwell is not surprising. Really bad stuff happens, life

1198
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 3: is stressful, it's difficult. What is really the interesting thing

1199
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 3: is how quickly most humors put themselves together again afterwards.

1200
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 3: And if they don't, why not? What is it that's

1201
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 3: gone wrong that sustains the problem? As this think from

1202
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 3: allows recovery from the problem.

1203
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: Do we define ourselves as someone that bad stuff happens too,

1204
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: or do we define ourselves as someone who is able

1205
00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 2: to carry on and still be me and bad stuff

1206
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: is happening.

1207
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 3: Don't think you're gonna have good mental health by preventing

1208
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 3: bad things from happening. In fact, also if you have

1209
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 3: bad mental health, part of research on the side of

1210
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 3: it with guess what, you generate more bad events when

1211
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 3: you have bad mental health.

1212
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 5: Well, people do stuff.

1213
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: Actually that's just I understand exactly.

1214
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: Well, there's in My Super Secret Sober Club there's a

1215
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: turn of phrase which it used to be fun.

1216
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: Then it was fun with problems, and now it's.

1217
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 5: Just all problem exactly.

1218
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 3: Undealt with mental health problems then creates more traumatic things.

1219
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 3: Worse stuff does happen as a consequence, and then you've

1220
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 3: got all the problems associated with that on top of

1221
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 3: One of the other things about early intervention is trying

1222
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,760
Speaker 3: to intervene before all the consequential stuff makes your life worse.

1223
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 4: But one of the other things, I mean, if you're depressed,

1224
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 4: you're more likely then to become even more depressed about

1225
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 4: the fact that you're depressed. You know, I'm depressed because

1226
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 4: I'm about the fact I'm on anti depressants, So you

1227
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 4: can really spiral downwards, can't. You're more prone to those

1228
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 4: feelings of self pity rather than a car break my leg.

1229
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 4: I'm in a cast. I'm just going to press on.

1230
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,240
Speaker 4: That's harder when the cast you're in as a mental one.

1231
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 2: But is as you described earlier. It is only in

1232
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 2: action that's things. And bear in mind, I know you

1233
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,280
Speaker 2: did say you've got to you've got to do different.

1234
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 2: Sometimes doing different is thinking in a different way about things.

1235
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 2: That is doing something. It is in my head, but

1236
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 2: it is me taking the time. Maybe the doing is

1237
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 2: that taking the time to process it or think about

1238
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 2: it in a different way.

1239
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 3: You've got to sometimes make up new stories about yourself,

1240
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 3: and then sometimes you have to fit in with the

1241
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 3: actor you've made up in that story and start behaving

1242
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 3: like that instead of what you think is the real.

1243
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 3: You know the real means are miserable all for it?

1244
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 3: And no, Well, actually pretend to be a nice dad. Okay,

1245
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 3: just pretend. And then when you pretend to be a

1246
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 3: nice dad, try being a nice dad and see what happens.

1247
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 3: I guess what the world starts treating you differently, and

1248
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 3: they go, oh, I kind of prefer this kind of

1249
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 3: thing I've become.

1250
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,879
Speaker 2: It is the little granular steps that change. You might

1251
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 2: not get it right all the time, and it is

1252
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 2: in figuring out how to do stuff new.

1253
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: And then eventually you get enough. You know, it doesn't

1254
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: need much.

1255
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 2: You just get enough in a row and you start

1256
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 2: to get that dopemine release and you start to your

1257
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: departs at your brain know how to do to get

1258
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: you pursuing more. Things start to work in your favor

1259
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: and you start to set up these systems and you

1260
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: create new habits precisely.

1261
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 3: And you see it'sthingly important. But when you stop those things,

1262
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: what was driving you to do that in the first place.

1263
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 3: So often when people have had mood problems or anxiety problems,

1264
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 3: and we see this all the time, and unfortunately in

1265
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 3: my world, people say, oh, we'll treat your depression, we'll

1266
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 3: treat your anxiety once you stop doing X, Y Z,

1267
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 3: and you go, hang on a second, right, let's just

1268
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 3: do not very practical, And in fact, I've not seen

1269
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 3: the mental health world. I think sadly we send a

1270
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 3: lot of people away with a gambing problem and alcohol

1271
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 3: problem at drug problems. Said, you fix that first, then

1272
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 3: we'll treat the underlying depression and we'll treat the underlying anxiety.

1273
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 5: Not very helpful.

1274
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, to stop that behavior, but we're going to

1275
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 3: need often to deal with the more significant psychological or

1276
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 3: mental health difficulty that's been driving that behavior, that's been

1277
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: really contributing to that. So I just said to my

1278
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 3: colleagues and the mental health systems and elsewhere, please don't

1279
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 3: say that to people. Yeah, but also provide help once

1280
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 3: you've sorted it.

1281
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 4: We were talking earlier about the things you can change

1282
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 4: and the things you can't, and it's really easy to

1283
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 4: get a mixed up. That is to say, I'm just

1284
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 4: not someone who can exercise. I'm not someone who can

1285
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 4: get up early. And they're they're not fixed character or

1286
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 4: temperamental markers. They are just the things that you do.

1287
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 4: About eight years ago, I started doing fifteen minutes of

1288
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 4: yoga every morning because it's just felt like I did

1289
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 4: it once and said that's a good way to wake up.

1290
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 5: I feel alive now.

1291
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 4: And I hated it for the first three months, and

1292
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 4: honestly I don't love it now, but because it's drilled

1293
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 4: into me and it's something very different from who I

1294
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 4: was for all the years of my life before. And

1295
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 4: there's two things. I don't even think about it because

1296
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 4: it's a habit, right, It's like cleaning my teeth, and

1297
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 4: I never think about whether I should clean my teeth

1298
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 4: or not. And also, at the end of it, I

1299
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 4: feel a little bit proud of myself, and that's a

1300
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 4: good That's a much better way to start the day

1301
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 4: than feeling a bit ashamed of myself. I would have

1302
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 4: said for the first forty or five years of my

1303
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 4: life someone had said to me, that's just not me.

1304
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 4: But it is me now, and I could go I

1305
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 4: could stop tomorrow and go back again. So there's a

1306
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 4: difference between our temperament, which is hard to change, and

1307
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 4: our habits that are a lot easier.

1308
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 2: But our temperament is that it's something that we can

1309
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: adapt to and it's not something that we have to

1310
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 2: define ourselves by.

1311
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 5: No, all right, yeah.

1312
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: Like I'm you know you mentioned the word earlier. I

1313
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 2: don't use that word in our house. I use it

1314
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: sometimes like I'm often reluctant to engage.

1315
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 1: That's how I'll say.

1316
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 4: It's fair enough.

1317
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: I'm reluctant to James, I'm reluctant to engagement.

1318
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: I know that about myself when I'm not in a

1319
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 2: professional situation like this one.

1320
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: But I know that I know enough about that. It's like, oh,

1321
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: that's a part of me.

1322
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 2: And if I don't feel like going to this thing,

1323
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 2: that's a sign I should go to this thing. There

1324
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 2: we go, and I'll go to the thing and I'll

1325
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 2: feel better. Yeah, but I know that's a part of

1326
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 2: me that I'm likely to be able to change. But

1327
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 2: I do know that when I see it to go,

1328
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do here, because my life

1329
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 2: is better when I do the contrary action to that.

1330
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 1: That's so interesting.

1331
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 3: You say that in the sense about it doesn't define you. No, Okay,

1332
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 3: there are many things take a physical characteristics, many things

1333
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 3: about us we're not changing, but they don't have to

1334
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 3: be central to who you are. You know, who you

1335
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 3: are has got much more to do with what you do, skills,

1336
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 3: you have, bits do you understand about yourself. So temperament's

1337
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 3: really important. But it's not a prison. It's not something

1338
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 3: you're just stuck with and defining who you are, changing

1339
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 3: the story about who you are changing. Kind of an

1340
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 3: idea about who you are. You know, sometimes you need

1341
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 3: to experiment with those things to see that you can

1342
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 3: be quite different, and they're a real reward. You've got

1343
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 3: some real choices about that stuff, not being stuck in

1344
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 3: one view, one way of being with yourself, going to

1345
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 3: find out and being in different ways in different settings.

1346
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 3: What you said, work versus other social mode is important

1347
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 3: different stages of life. It's important to do different things.

1348
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 3: But learning different ways to be is quite you know,

1349
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 3: freedom seeking, you know it make gives you lots of

1350
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 3: choices about how to be in different places. Life's much

1351
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 3: more enjoyable not being so stereotyped about yourself.

1352
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 2: As someone who's spent their career in the very public

1353
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 2: world of mental health and advocating for people.

1354
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: What's it like for you to.

1355
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,919
Speaker 2: Now understand that there are these kinds of conversations happening

1356
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 2: in public and how important are they?

1357
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 5: Oh tremendously important.

1358
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 3: So in that sense, you know, when I was young,

1359
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 3: lots of people come up to me at social visigo.

1360
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 3: I'm not I ununderstand you're a psychiatrist. Could we step

1361
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 3: into another room and have a private conversation because I

1362
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 3: don't want anyone to know anything, but and you know,

1363
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 3: it was sort of annoying. Now I go into those situations,

1364
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 3: everyone says, oh great skytches can we talk about because

1365
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 3: everyone wants more knowledge And I think what we've seen

1366
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 3: is tremendous awareness and some degree of sharing. It. Really

1367
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 3: lucky in Australia have lots of public figures talk in

1368
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 3: various ways in creating many men. But we need to

1369
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 3: keep talking, but we need to go beyond the talking

1370
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 3: because it tends to be one of kind of sympathetic

1371
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 3: Oh that I really hope it doesn't happen to me,

1372
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 3: but it's nice to know. So we've got to a

1373
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 3: certain point of public acceptance and that's great, but actually

1374
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 3: public knowledge of what to do next and individually what

1375
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 3: to do is still fairly limited, part because brain science

1376
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 3: is much more complicated. It's not that simple, and there's

1377
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 3: a lot more we need to know to communicate that.

1378
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 3: But I think we've underemphasized. This is what we're trying

1379
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 3: to pick up in the book, what you can now do? Okay,

1380
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 3: so not just know the thing, but what to do

1381
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 3: about the thing, and really this bottom line, finding out

1382
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 3: as early as you can in life what works for you.

1383
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 3: Sharing this with young people, because most mental health problems

1384
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 3: have their onset before twenty five and many before fifteen.

1385
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 3: Young people need to know those things, and that means

1386
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 3: people of our age sharing these experiences and go you

1387
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 3: know what, We never really talked about this when I

1388
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 3: was young. We all know people in trouble, We all

1389
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 3: know people whose lives have been messed up by not

1390
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 3: So the more we can go from just okay, it's good,

1391
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 3: we sort of recognize it to you know what to

1392
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 3: do and we've been through similar experiences, and here's the

1393
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 3: variety of things that might work, including getting good health care.

1394
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 3: Good health care, not just any health care. But there's

1395
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 3: things you can do yourself and find out for yourself.

1396
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:28,479
Speaker 3: So I think we've reached a certain stage of great

1397
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 3: public awareness, but a long way to go in terms

1398
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 3: of real understanding of Okay, this is stuff like your

1399
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 3: physical health. James discussing about yoga, which is good for

1400
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 3: his mental and physical health. You know which bits do

1401
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 3: work for you and you can make them part of

1402
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 3: your daily life.

1403
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 2: I am concerned about James's yoga at four o'clock tomorrow morning,

1404
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 2: and the fact that we're really into it, eating into

1405
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 2: his daytime. Couch time, because how has been up since

1406
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: very early today. Gentlemen, thank you so much for this conversation.

1407
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 2: I'm so gratefully you wrote the book and there you

1408
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 2: came in today.

1409
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Russia.

1410
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show that James O.

1411
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 2: Laughlan and Professor Ian Hickey their brand new book, A

1412
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 2: User's Guide to the Mind is out now so is

1413
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 2: so what?

1414
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: Now What?

1415
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: And back after the break? The two books that I have,

1416
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 2: I've written two books now. I feel very proud of that.

1417
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 2: You can get those books in the show notes. If

1418
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 2: you want to get either of those books signed, come

1419
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 2: along to story Club, or if you don't want to

1420
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: get them signed, just come along story Club this Sunday night,

1421
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 2: August at tenth Factory Theater, America Feld Doors at six shows,

1422
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 2: six thirty. I'll be there, Heggy will be there, Rob

1423
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 2: Carlton and Jeeves Verma, Karen Fairy, Audrey Griffin. We'll have

1424
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 2: you out there by eight thirty latest. All right, And

1425
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 2: it's the best day night in Sydney. No matter what

1426
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 2: you see on stage, no matter what you hear, no

1427
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 2: what story you tell, it's a live storytelling show. People

1428
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 2: have to tell true stories up on stage. It's hilarious.

1429
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 2: I've read Audrey's It's Gonna be Real Good and it's

1430
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 2: the best day night in Sydney because no matter what,

1431
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 2: when you go out to dinner afterwards, you've got aps

1432
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 2: to talk about hoops. I'll put the link in the

1433
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 2: show notes. Thanks to Adam Buncher for producing the episode.

1434
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.