WEBVTT - After the breakup: Should men pay for egg-freezing? 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:10.840 From The Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front. 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:15.280 I'm Claire Harvey my guest today. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.959 Writer Charlotte Ree has earned a loyal following for bearing 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.479 all when it comes to heartbreak, fertility and all the 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.800 beautiful complexity of being a single woman in her mid thirties. 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.480 Exploring these topics in her columns published in the Weekend 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:33.760 Australian magazine, Reid taps into the deeply personal and for 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.120 a lot of women, the deeply relatable. There's a feminist 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:41.160 bent to her writing that's familiar, celebrating ideas around choice 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:45.160 and agency and some pretty new ideas too, like why 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.800 your ex should foot the bill for egg freezing. Charlotte's 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:59.360 here in just a moment. Charlotte Ree is an author 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.200 and columns with The Weekend Australian and Charlotte, we've talked 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.080 previously on the Front about your decision. 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.120 To freeze your eggs, your big desire to become a mother. 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:10.520 It's a big emotional conversation. I'll try not to make 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:12.880 you cry. I know, I like i've probably last time 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:17.080 you made Mekra. You've gone ahead and started the process 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.920 of freezing your eggs, and I think I knew anecdotally 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.880 that that was a really tough process from knowing women 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.280 who've been through it, but reading your story, which is 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.960 published in the Australian's Weekend magazine today, really opened my 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.280 eyes to how tough it is. Tell me about what 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.840 you had to do to harvest and then freeze some 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:37.479 of your eggs. 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.200 I honestly think it's the worst thing I've ever done. 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.080 And one of my friends said to me, the best, 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:42.800 You mean the best. 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.520 I don't know. It's the worst, most hardest, most difficult 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:46.520 thing I've ever done. 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.600 Essentially, you are injecting hormones into your body every single 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.400 day in order to fabricate your body thinking that it's 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.680 over producing eggs as a woman. Each period you release 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.520 one egg. This is design to make you release multiple 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:03.600 dozens of eggs. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:09.440 Ideally, it's simultaneously incredibly expensive and also largely do it yourself. 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.440 Like you'd think for the tens of thousands of dollars 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.320 that you're paying, that someone would come around to your house. 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:15.800 There's not a nurse in my home, exactly. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.000 I love that you describe yourself as having a sort 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:20.200 of lineup of vials and powders in front of you, 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.080 like you were running a small time drug operation. 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.800 Yeah, and it felt like that you really are doing 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.560 something completely unnatural and something I really struggled with throughout 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.880 every time I was hurting myself and injecting myself and 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.480 bruising myself and putting these big needles into my body 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.799 that felt, you know, way too big for me. You're 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.440 kind of thinking, but why, like what is this process? 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.200 And it felt so unloving I guess, like the complete 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:48.400 opposite way to how I thought, you know, I would 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:50.440 be having a baby. I thought it would be love 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:55.680 and passion and instead its forms and paperwork, and you know, 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.160 seven pm alarms going off to tell me I've got 0:02:58.200 --> 0:02:58.920 to do it all again. 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.480 This is the mirror of science, of course, that is 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.880 hopefully going to give you this longed for baby. Did 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.320 it make you regret having chosen to step into this 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:08.360 path at all? 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.560 I think every day I did. And that's something my 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.000 mum had to keep reminding me every day, and I 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.480 am really grateful to her, but she just kept saying 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.640 to me, you know, you're not being grateful and acknowledging 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.840 what science is affording you, like the opportunities it's giving 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:24.680 you it's giving you the chance to be a mum. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.799 And I think in the brain fog which definitely comes 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.840 with hormones, I had forgotten and lost sight of that 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:31.239 a bit. 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.200 You went through this ordeal of the injections at home 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.560 and then the retrieval in a hospital setting, and then 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:39.760 you got the results. So how did it go? 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.960 So I sort of came out in a complete haze 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.320 of an atheesure and I was told I had that 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:50.560 they'd gotten sixteen eggs, which is a really great result, 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.520 and I just remember being complete shock. I think I 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.880 went in just saying to myself, you just need one. 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:58.000 All it takes is one. 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.920 I kind of had seven in my head because I 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.760 love that number, and then when they said sixteen, I 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.480 just couldn't believe it. And I remember the nurse wrote 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.080 it on my hand. I think there's a way to 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:10.800 sort of say, like, hey, you're I was saying, can 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.160 I have my phone to text my mom? She's like, 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:13.760 you're absolutely not allowed to have your phone. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:15.560 Yet I was thinking, why can't I have my phone? 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.680 And then my female gynecologist came out and I said 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.080 to her, you're such a beautiful man, and I thought, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:25.360 that's why that phone cut change. But I, you know, 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.880 my best friend sort of picked me up and she 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.880 was waiting for me when I came out, and and 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:32.960 I just held my hand up to her and I think, 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:34.880 you know, I still can't believe it, and we both 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.960 couldn't believe it. And then later that afternoon they call 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.040 and they say, you know, you had surgery this morning, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.480 and we got sixteen eggs and twelve had made it 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:47.040 to the freezer. But I guess it sort of came 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.640 crashing down to reality when I had the follow up call. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.000 And even with twelve, because they're eggs. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.040 And they're not embryos which are fertilized with sperm, they 0:04:56.200 --> 0:05:00.479 have less likelihood of defrosting in a viable manner. And 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.200 so my stats are even with twelve, I have a 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.320 sixty seven percent chance of one baby, and I think 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.080 it's like a twenty nine percent chance of two. So 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.479 you need to sort of have thirty or forty if 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.200 you want to have the sort of more comfort, I 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.360 think in actually having a viable pregnancy so you. 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.680 Could go through this experience all over again. How does 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:22.120 that feel? 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.239 Yeah, I think, I mean I've spoken to my doctor 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.400 about it, and I know I likely need to. I 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.720 think at this point in time, I can't fathom doing it. 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.520 It really threw everything up in the air for me. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.839 It just totally dysregulated me. I think, you know, I've 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.400 worked so hard in the past six months to sort 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.800 of be in control and feel like I was doing 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.840 all of these right, amazing things for myself. And as 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:48.640 my mum said, she said, yeah, but you chose to 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.160 freeze your eggsit this time. You know you could have waited. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:53.640 But when all of the science and all of the 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.120 appointments are saying you've lost, You've got no time, You've 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.080 got a hurry. You're thirty five, You're going to be 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.040 in first. The longer you wait, the less eggs you're 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.080 going to get. What else are you going to do? 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.159 But sort of go in guns blazing. But the idea 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.159 of doing it again and doing it alone is really scary. 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.360 I've got to admit the alone part is very significant, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.920 isn't it. Something else I learned from you is that 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:20.400 you can't freeze an embryo unless you have this sort 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:25.000 of partner there with you volunteering for that as well. 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.120 Or it's having donor sperm from someone that has done 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.360 counseling and psychology appointments to say that they approve their 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.039 sperm being used. They've signed off on a form to 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.039 say that they did so. The only way that you 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.520 can freeze embryos is with a known person, so not 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:42.520 just a partner, but if you had a friend that 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.320 was willing to donate sperm, there's a whole process they 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.760 have to go through to be basically allowed to do it, 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.120 and you both have to do sort of counseling to 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.240 get to that point. You cannot freeze embryos with donor 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.760 sperm in Australia, which is something I learned, and also 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:03.640 there's a sperm shortage in Australia. In there I say this. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.159 I saw this hilarious ivy of Australia out of a 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.080 guy with a megaphone speaking to guys growing saying donate today, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.480 and I was thinking, God, that's one marketing campaign and 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:15.160 one way to do it. 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.320 Price I do the thing that you do best, because 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.760 never has Australia needed a hand as much as it 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:23.440 does now. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.520 But it is it's like you are already in this 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.080 like limited pool of pain, and then you just get 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.200 smaller and smaller and smaller. As you realize how sort 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.680 of limited your options become as a woman doing it 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:39.160 on your own. 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.080 It's a very common experience for women to kind of 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.400 step into feminism or discover feminism as. 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:44.840 They get older. 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.680 Yeah, has this experience kind of enhanced your understanding of 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:49.920 what feminism is about? 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:51.360 I feel enraged. 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.600 I keep getting in the algorithm these men on their 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.040 Instagram accounts, which are mainly aimed at men. In this 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.600 one in particular, is this guy in California with a 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.640 receding hairline who starts every video by going, I a thirty. 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.840 Six year old, single income, no kids, man, and this 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.480 is a day in my life. And I just think, oh, 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:11.080 you prick. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:16.880 You really are marketing why men should just be unattached 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.880 and avoidant. And I feel like doing these other ones, 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.640 like I'm a thirty five year old woman, single income, 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.560 no kids, and this is also equally how great my 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:29.960 life is. But it's hard to see that when my 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.960 ex hasn't had to do any of this. And you know, 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.600 I've got friends that are having babies and are married 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.160 and coupled, and it has felt so isolating, and I 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:43.400 suppose it has made me feel more vocal and I 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.720 guess wanting to speak up about these things that do 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.480 feel like an injustice in some ways, like yet again 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.320 women are getting this sort of raw end of the deal. 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.559 But it really is like there's no sugarcoating it. If 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.360 you even are in a couple, most of the man 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.520 has to do is get his sperm tested by you know, 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.560 ejaculating into a cup, and the female has to go 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.480 through all of these blood tests. Internal just sounds and 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.440 I just think of men sometimes that are just like 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:14.160 on this even keel and we're kind of doing this 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.400 the whole way along as we're navigating the bumpy roade. 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.160 It's been a couple of decades now that egg freezing 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.520 has been marketed to women over the age of you know, 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.400 twenty seven as the ultimate insurance policy. You know, get 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:33.920 to the other side of the egg freezing and then 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.840 you can take a breath and then you'll be able 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.959 to step into relationships with a bit less pressure. Yeah, 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:40.800 you're there now. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.560 How does it feel to be completely relaxed? 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.040 And on the other side, part of me is like 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.040 I just want to put that behind me now and 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:50.640 just go on with my life. I don't want to 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.600 be that woman that got dumped and just desperately wants 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.280 a kid, and that's going to form the rest of 0:09:55.320 --> 0:10:00.760 my interactions. I'm just having this real pivot my thinking 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.040 where I'm just understanding that I've done what I can now, 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.920 I've done every option available to me. Yes, the option 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:09.840 is there to have a second round and have more, 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.960 and do I want that to be the defining factor 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:15.720 in my life and how I relate to people, And 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.800 I don't. I want to be open minded, I want 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:20.640 to be thirty five. I want to have fun again. 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.720 You know, I've been feeling so sad and so serious 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.320 and so unlike. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.560 Myself, and I just want to be myself again. 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:34.560 It's the separation of love equals marriage and a baby. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.839 Yeah too. Love is one thing and a baby is 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.240 another thing. Really, isn't it. That's supposed to be the freedom? 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:47.040 Yeah, And that's something that in the history of humanity 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:48.760 we haven't had. Yeah. 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.280 Really, well, no, I feel like it's the first sort 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.800 of generation that you have a choice about what you 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.520 do and whether you do. Become a mum and you know, 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.360 I rang my mum recently and I was a bit 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.960 emotional because I said to us, you know, someone just 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.120 told me that they were pregnant and had to put 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:05.000 on this brave face. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:06.640 And then I was in the car and my mom said, 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.440 but you could be. You could be. 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:10.760 You've got the eggs on ice. You could be having 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.679 a baby, but you're choosing not to. And she's just 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:15.400 she's taking the tough love approach. 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.000 Yeah, mom is stepping up to you. 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:19.840 Is just taking the tough love approach with me and 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.320 my emotions lately. And I think I could be and 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.920 I'm choosing not to be. And I suppose that's the thing. 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:30.079 I do have options. That's the beauty of being in Australia. 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.959 It's the beauty of being able to afford it, and 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.400 it's the beauty of feeling like I have choices again. 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.520 Yeah, and feminism is supposed to all be about choice, Yeah, exactly. 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.520 The one thing I do mentioned in the column is 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.480 that I want people to feel like they can ask 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.720 for that in a breakup, they need to ask for 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.680 some financial support if they need it. People talk about 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.960 divorce settlements all of the time. Perhaps egg freezing should 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.200 be a part of that, particularly if you're of a 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.400 certain age, because I do wonder how women do afford 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.760 it if they are on their own. It ends up 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.320 being nearly twenty grand in the end, and that's an 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.959 enormous amount of money. Even after my surgery, I got 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.559 an invoice that was unexpected. That said, because I'd retrieved 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:17.840 between eleven and twenty eggs, I got twelve that I 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.040 needed to pay an additional thousand dollars And it's just like, 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.120 are you kidding me? So? Because I've been so successful, 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.160 now I'm going to be charged for that. So I 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.480 do want people to feel empowered. 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:29.719 When they read this. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.520 I want people to feel like they have agency, because 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.439 I think a lot of people when I had written 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.960 about this for the magazine previously, strangers either on Instagram 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.520 or on the Australian Comments, had said how privileged I 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:45.720 was and that I was remiss in not acknowledging that. 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.520 And I think that's the word that I kept coming 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.160 back to as I was doing this, because I kept thinking, 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.400 there is nothing privileged about this position, and to see 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.480 it that way feels like completely off. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.800 Well, I think generally women are too busy to comment, 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.880 and I know that all the women I know and 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.079 all your followers are wishing you all the best and 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.600 whatever this turns out to be, and You're already there. 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:10.280 You've already achieved something incredible. 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.480 Yeah, And I think that's sort of what I have 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.440 to sit back and realize is that I did it, 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.360 you know, against all odds. I've sort of done this 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.600 thing that felt like it was this sort of shawl 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.679 that I wasn't reaching. It felt like I was kept 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.000 swimming and the water was lapping, but I wasn't getting 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:25.640 any closer. 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.000 And now I'm at that shoreline. Thanks Charlotte, Thanks Claire. 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.040 Charlotte Ree is a columnist for the Weekend Australian magazine. 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.600 Pick up a copy of the Weekend Australian or search 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.240 for The Australian's Weekend magazine Anytime. This episode of the 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.800 Front was hosted by me Claire Harvey and produced by 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.960 Jasper League. Our team also includes Kristin Amiot, Lee At Sammerglue, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.760 Tiffany Dimack and Joshua Burton.