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Speaker 1: I'll get at Welcome to another installing the You project.

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Speaker 1: It's the seventh of January, as I sit here in

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Speaker 1: the bloody office here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne,

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Speaker 1: just slowly stepping back into the studio and slowly regaining

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Speaker 1: a little bit of momentum, coming out of the hammock

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Speaker 1: and the jacuzzi and having grown up conversations in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five with grown ups. Now. A grown up that

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Speaker 1: I talk to every two weeks, sometimes once a week,

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Speaker 1: but typically every two weeks is David James, Kevin Patrick,

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Speaker 1: Brian Gillespie, his son James, who's better looking and smarter,

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Speaker 1: not quite as access not quite as accessible. He's joined

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Speaker 1: me today, not filling in for his old man, but

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Speaker 1: just here in his own rights, have a really interesting

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Speaker 1: chat about something that is relevant for all ozsies. Get

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Speaker 1: I mate, how are you not bad?

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Speaker 2: Craig. It's going to be on with you again.

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Speaker 1: Do you like that intro? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: No, it's the run. I would say.

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Speaker 3: If you're struggling to get out of the havoc and

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Speaker 3: jacuzzi in Melbourne coming out of the holidays, you got

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Speaker 3: to move up to the Sunshine Coast. Craig, you never

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Speaker 3: have to get out of the havoc and jacuzy up here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know your old man's always telling me a

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Speaker 1: version of that. I don't, I don't know. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: we're all very parochial. We all love well, we don't

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Speaker 1: all love where we live. But I do love the

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Speaker 1: Sunshine State. But as someone who has had I would

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Speaker 1: say about sixteen or seventeen skin cancers cut off, I

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Speaker 1: probably shouldn't. I probably shouldn't relocate it.

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Speaker 3: Looks it really is a bit of a double edged

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Speaker 3: sword up here. You've got to be careful with that.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, if you're if you're, if you are looking

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Speaker 3: to get more cut out Craig, and this is the

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Speaker 3: place to be.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, look I'll take that under advisement. I'll probably

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Speaker 1: take a hard pass at this point in time. But

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Speaker 1: if I review that, I'll get back to you. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for your terrible advice. All right, now, let's just quickly

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Speaker 1: let's dive in. So rather than me give a bio

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Speaker 1: or me try to talk about clean Bill or the

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Speaker 1: Blue Report, just tell my audience as quick or as

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Speaker 1: slowly as you want, mate, who you are, what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: and what's coming out next week as well. We're recording

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Speaker 1: next week, but by the time this goes live, it'll

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Speaker 1: be out.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So.

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Speaker 3: I might give a little bit of a longer version

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Speaker 3: of events, if that's all right, Gray, Yeah, sure, and

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Speaker 3: take everyone back to the start. So I grew up

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Speaker 3: in Queensland and I was studying commerce law at university

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Speaker 3: at the University of Queensland back in twenty sixteen. And

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Speaker 3: while I was studying there, I was working as a

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Speaker 3: teacher ade at a primary school and one Monday I

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Speaker 3: came into the staff room and the pe teacher was

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Speaker 3: laid out on the floor stretching. She'd injured herself over

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Speaker 3: the weekend. She injured her back, but more than being

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Speaker 3: concerned about the injury itself, she was concerned about getting

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Speaker 3: someone to take a look at it. She was new

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Speaker 3: to the areas, she didn't have a regular GP and

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Speaker 3: as a working professional, she didn't have time during the

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Speaker 3: day to find every single GP clinic around her and

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Speaker 3: then call them all during business hours to see if

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Speaker 3: they would take her on as a new patient and

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Speaker 3: whether or not they would bill.

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Speaker 2: Her and Craig. I was kind of shocked by that.

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Speaker 3: It seemed insane to me that one of the most

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Speaker 3: important relationships that people have in their lives, the relationship

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Speaker 3: that they have with their local doctor, could be suck.

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Speaker 3: In the nineteen sixties, you know, where people were still

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Speaker 3: looking things up in the Yellow Pages and making calls

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Speaker 3: during business hours.

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Speaker 2: Just about everything else is online.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine that that was the one thing that

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Speaker 3: had held off and was still not online. So I

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Speaker 3: went home and I did a bit of research, and

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Speaker 3: I found that that actually was the case. People still

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Speaker 3: the most efficient way to find a doctor was to

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Speaker 3: just look up in the Yellow Pages and give them

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Speaker 3: all a call.

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Speaker 2: And that seemed saying to me.

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Speaker 3: So I used the ample Utia holidays that I had

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Speaker 3: at the time and started calling up doctors myself and

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Speaker 3: building lists of all of the doctors in a given

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Speaker 3: area and getting their pricing and availability information, and then

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Speaker 3: I put it all up on a directory called Mind

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Speaker 3: the Gap, and the directory is completely free, and the

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Speaker 3: idea behind it was that people could go on anytime

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Speaker 3: the day or night, see every single GP clinic or

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Speaker 3: dental clinic or specialist around them, and then filter them

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Speaker 3: by the price of their basic services. And it worked

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Speaker 3: pretty well for a time. But it was very small

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Speaker 3: scale because it was just me doing it. I didn't

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Speaker 3: have any money or anything, and yeah, I didn't have.

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Speaker 3: It was just whatever I was able to get done

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Speaker 3: in my unique holidays. And so when I finished Union,

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Speaker 3: it kind of slowed down a little bit. But then

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Speaker 3: I went to work as a grad in my first

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Speaker 3: year out of UNI, and in this role, I I

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Speaker 3: met up with with a bloke named Joel who taught

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Speaker 3: me a little bit about programming and a little bit

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Speaker 3: about how to use Excel a little bit more efficiently,

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Speaker 3: and a light bulb kind of went off in my mind,

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Speaker 3: and so I used the COVID lockdown to teach myself

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Speaker 3: a little bit of programming, and I put together a

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Speaker 3: new website called clean Build that used the best of the.

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Speaker 2: Programming that I'd learned as well.

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Speaker 3: As my full time salary to pay teams of callers

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Speaker 3: to do the calling that I was doing previously by myself.

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Speaker 3: And at the start of twenty twenty three, I released

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Speaker 3: clean Belle's first ever Blue.

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Speaker 2: Report, which was.

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Speaker 3: A report into the statistics we put together by listing

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Speaker 3: every single GP clinic we could find across all of

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Speaker 3: Australias capital cities and the whole of the Northern territory

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Speaker 3: of the Act and Pasmania. So it was a huge undertaking,

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Speaker 3: but we were the first to go out and do

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Speaker 3: this comprehensive calling and it forms the basis of the

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Speaker 3: listings on the website. And so when we put this

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Speaker 3: report out, we called it the Blue Report and just

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Speaker 3: released it. And the idea behind it, really, Craig, was

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Speaker 3: just to try to get people get awareness out there

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Speaker 3: of the website, of help people find the website and

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Speaker 3: find the free resource that it provided. But it created

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Speaker 3: something of a storm. There was a lot of interest because,

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Speaker 3: as you would know, bolk billing rates have been going down.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people have seen that in their communities.

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Speaker 3: They weren't necessarily seeing it in the statistics that were

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Speaker 3: being published by the government, and our report was the

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Speaker 3: first one that really captured what it was like to

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Speaker 3: try to find a bulk billing clinic.

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Speaker 2: In your community that and so we kept doing that.

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Speaker 3: Each year we've gone out, we've called towards the end

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Speaker 3: of each year, we've called every single GP clinic we're

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Speaker 3: able to find across the country, and then in January

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Speaker 3: of the following year released the Blue Report that reports

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Speaker 3: on what's happened in the previous year to both bolk

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Speaker 3: billing rates and out of pocket costs if you're looking

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Speaker 3: at every single GP clinic across the country. And that's

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Speaker 3: what this year's Blue Report does. It's our third annual

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Speaker 3: Blue Report, and it reports on what's happened since since

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Speaker 3: the start of twenty twenty three to both billing and

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Speaker 3: out of pocket costs across the country.

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Speaker 1: A couple of things. I want to know why the

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Speaker 1: Blue Report? What does that mean? Where did that name

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Speaker 1: come from?

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Speaker 3: Oh, you're gonna laughs. It's because Kleingvill's logo is blue. Okay,

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Speaker 3: that's the teeth as it goes.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that's that's the reason, Vie.

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Speaker 1: That's all right. But it's like I always wonder about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the etymology of words or terms. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what's the origin story for that word or for that term,

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Speaker 1: or even for that phrase. So that's cool. Also, I

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Speaker 1: want to know before we jump into the numbers and

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Speaker 1: the stats and we see what's actually happened happening across

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Speaker 1: the medical landscape. Yeah, I want to know, like, why

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Speaker 1: does a young dude spend his wage paying people to

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Speaker 1: create this thing? And I'm pretty sure that you're not

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Speaker 1: trying to get.

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Speaker 4: Rich doing this, because you could get rich much easier,

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Speaker 4: and you could, you could, you could invest your In fact,

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Speaker 4: this would make you about the worst business man ever.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, So what what was the like just from

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Speaker 1: that curiosity of the lady in the staff room when

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Speaker 1: you were doing that work in the school and seeing

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Speaker 1: that to this thing that you have now created, which

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Speaker 1: is you know, expanding and growing and getting a footprint

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Speaker 1: and recognition and all kinds of attention. What what was

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Speaker 1: the motivator for you? Like? Why did you want to

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Speaker 1: invest so much of your life and your own money

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Speaker 1: to do it?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. It's not been a

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Speaker 3: particularly fruit investment so far. Over the course of the

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Speaker 3: first eighteen months of Cleanville, it cost me a fair

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Speaker 3: amount of money. It's now bringing in enough money that

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Speaker 3: it can pay for itself. Although I still am working

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Speaker 3: a different job full time. I no longer have to

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Speaker 3: pay my salary to keep it running, which is good.

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Speaker 3: But I mean when it first started out, when it

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Speaker 3: was just mind the gap it was and it was

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Speaker 3: just me doing the calling. It was just something to

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Speaker 3: do over the Holimads. It was something that I wanted

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Speaker 3: to investigate and see what was happening in I'd always

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Speaker 3: grown up assuming that that Australia had this really robust

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Speaker 3: universal healthcare system, and the purpose of a universal healthcare

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Speaker 3: system and a robust one was to ensure that anyone

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Speaker 3: who got sick at any time would be able to

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Speaker 3: go and see a doctor, regardless of their economic circumstances.

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Speaker 3: And the more I dug into it when I was

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Speaker 3: working online the Gap, the more I realized that it

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Speaker 3: was firstly a lot more complex than that, and secondly

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Speaker 3: becoming increasingly rare that people, regardless of their economic circumstances

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Speaker 3: would be able to access that primary care that they needed.

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Speaker 3: And so Mind the Gap kind of then more from

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Speaker 3: being just an interest thing to almost feeling as though

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Speaker 3: a mission that had to be completed myself. I felt

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Speaker 3: like I was in a position now where I understood

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Speaker 3: quite clearly what was happening in our broader medicare system

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Speaker 3: and in the accessibility of primary care, and I wanted

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Speaker 3: to ensure that there was a tool that people could

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Speaker 3: use to find doctors and see how much it would

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Speaker 3: cost to go and visit them. And that carried over

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Speaker 3: into clean build as well. And I mean it might sound,

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Speaker 3: I guess trite, but it was really a feeling that

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Speaker 3: if there is an opportunity here for me to make

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Speaker 3: a differences improve people's access here, and I instead decide

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Speaker 3: to stand by and do nothing to ensure that people

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Speaker 3: have that access, then you know, I'm kind of accepting

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Speaker 3: the fact that there's nothing that can be done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember, if I remember correctly, that is when

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Speaker 1: you first launched in twenty twenty three, or you did

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Speaker 1: your first Blue report, and my correct was twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Three, twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Good, yep. That you know, reaching out to all of these,

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Speaker 1: you know, first time, reaching out to all of these

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Speaker 1: medical centers and clinics and providers and trying to get

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Speaker 1: information about pricing, you weren't exactly warmly received by everybody.

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Speaker 1: Do I recall that correctly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's I think we did receive a bit

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Speaker 3: of a warmer reception in twenty twenty three than I

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Speaker 3: was receiving in twenty seventeen. When I first started doing

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Speaker 3: it with mine in the gap, Like in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 3: it was really unheard of thing to call up a

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Speaker 3: clinic and ask what their price was, and I had

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Speaker 3: all number of clinics.

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Speaker 2: Refusing to provide a quote.

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Speaker 3: You had, you know, twenty twenty five percent of clinics

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Speaker 3: refusing to provide a quote because they just it was

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Speaker 3: a foreign thing.

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Speaker 2: But we kept doing it, and.

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Speaker 3: The blue reports that we've done in twenty twenty three

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Speaker 3: and in twenty twenty four now have completely changed the

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Speaker 3: national narrative around disclosure of pricing. Now it's an expectation

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Speaker 3: that when people call up at GP clinic they will

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Speaker 3: be able to get that information, to the point that

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Speaker 3: when we're collecting data for GP clinics now we have

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Speaker 3: fewer than one percent not providing a quote, and an

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Speaker 3: increasing number of GP clinics each year are putting their

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Speaker 3: pricing up on their website, so you don't even necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Have to call them anymore. You can just go on

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Speaker 2: that website.

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Speaker 3: Now it's still a small percentage, unfortunately, but it is

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Speaker 3: a growing percentage. And so that's been I think a

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Speaker 3: really really good byproduct of the advocacy work that we've

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Speaker 3: done in this area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well that is great, And I mean, think

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Speaker 1: about any other product or service where I'm selling you

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Speaker 1: something but I'm not going to tell you how much

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Speaker 1: it is what it's a ridiculous notion. Yeah I want

250
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Speaker 1: to buy that lounge, Sure, how much is it? I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you. Or I want to go and train

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Speaker 1: with a personal trainer. Sure, I'll train you three days

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Speaker 1: a week. Okay, how much is a per session? Can't

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Speaker 1: tell you, Craig.

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Speaker 3: It's the way I think of it as almost even

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Speaker 3: more of an imperative than those examples, whilst they're good examples.

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Speaker 3: The way I explained it when I first started out

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Speaker 3: was that imagine if you're running law on fuel in

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Speaker 3: a neighborhood that you don't know, and instead of there

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Speaker 3: being an app that shows you all of the petrol

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Speaker 3: stations around you and how much they cost, there's no app.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing that you can see. None of the petrol

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Speaker 3: stations even have that big sign out front that says

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Speaker 3: how much it costs. You just have to drive up

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Speaker 3: to the pump, fill up your car, and then go

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Speaker 3: in and pay whatever they tell you the cost is

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Speaker 3: for filling up your tank. That's the situation that you

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Speaker 3: were in with GPS, and are still in with some

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Speaker 3: specialists across the country, where you need this service. You

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Speaker 3: need what they're providing. If you run out of petrol,

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Speaker 3: you're not going very far. If you're not able to

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Speaker 3: take care of your health, you're not probably going very

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Speaker 3: far either. You need the service that they're providing, and

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Speaker 3: there is no transparency whatsoever around costs. It would be

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Speaker 3: an utterly foreign concept for that to occur with petrol,

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Speaker 3: yet it's something that people have accepted for a long time.

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Speaker 2: With medicine in.

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Speaker 1: Australia, is there a particular area of specialty in the

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Speaker 1: medical space that is particularly elusive and or evasive when

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Speaker 1: it comes to clarity around pricing. Well, so, we've we've.

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Speaker 2: Had a lot of success with GPS and with improving

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Speaker 2: the likelihood that.

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Speaker 3: The GP clinic will tell people what they're pricing is

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Speaker 3: ahead of time. We've also seen that flow through to

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Speaker 3: some special so we have listed dermatologists on the website,

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Speaker 3: and most dermatology clinics quite forthcoming in the pricing information

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Speaker 3: that they had. We've not branched out too much into

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Speaker 3: other specialties yet. I know from experience when I was

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Speaker 3: doing the calls for mind the Gap back in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 3: we had even greater difficulty in getting pricing information from

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Speaker 3: all specialists, whether they be dermatologists, nts, psychiatrists, anything like

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Speaker 3: that we were having trouble. So it will be interesting,

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Speaker 3: I think, to see as we expand out into other specialties,

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Speaker 3: which we intend to do in the early months of

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Speaker 3: next year, whether that culture has also changed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, Well, without further ado, let's jump

297
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Speaker 1: in and give us kind of the the highlight reel

298
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Speaker 1: or the snapshot of what the new report is going

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Speaker 1: to tell us in terms of your key findings.

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Speaker 3: Of course, so it's worth remembering when you look at

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Speaker 3: the report. But what we're looking at here is the

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00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,680
Speaker 3: bold billing rate as defined by our report. So we

303
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Speaker 3: define it a little bit differently to the government, and

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Speaker 3: the way we define it is the percentage of available clinics,

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00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 3: so clinics that are taking on new patients that will

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Speaker 3: both build a regular adult for a standard consultation.

307
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Speaker 2: Now that it sounds.

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Speaker 3: Very specific when you lay it out like that grade,

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Speaker 3: but that's actually how the vast majority of adults interact

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Speaker 3: with their GP is they'll go in for a standard consultation.

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Speaker 3: And we only want to measure the available clinics because

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Speaker 3: if you're someone new to an area, who are the

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Speaker 3: vast majority of people who are using clean to find GPS.

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Speaker 3: It's unhelpful to know that there are five GP clinics

315
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Speaker 3: around you that will both bill you if none of

316
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Speaker 3: them are able to take you ont.

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Speaker 2: Of the patient.

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Speaker 3: So there's not really there's no list of every GP

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00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 3: clinic in Australia. In fact, it's very difficult to even

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Speaker 3: tell how many GP clinics there are in Australia. So

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Speaker 3: when klean bill goes out, we're just looking to find

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Speaker 3: every single one that we can, so I guess we're

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Speaker 3: assembling the comprehensive lists in that regard, and that means

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Speaker 3: that we found in twenty twenty three we found just

325
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Speaker 3: over six thousand, three hundred clinics in six eight hundred,

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Speaker 3: and this year over six thousand, nine hundred, So we

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Speaker 3: are improving as the years to go by, and I

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Speaker 3: would estimate that this is probably between ninety five and

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Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of the GP clinics across Australia. We've

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Speaker 3: called a price Information and what we found is that

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Speaker 3: over the course of the last two years, the BOLD

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Speaker 3: building rate across Australia has fallen from thirty five point

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Speaker 3: seven percent to twenty point seven percent.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: What that means is that the percentage of clinics that

336
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,880
Speaker 3: will both bill a new adult patient has fallen from

337
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 3: over a third of clinics, it's now around a fifth

338
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 3: of clinics right now.

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Speaker 1: It's gone from literally gone from one in three to

340
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Speaker 1: one in five. I mean that is that and that

341
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 1: is in two years?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? And why? I mean, sorry to interrupt, but no,

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Speaker 1: why is that?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Why do you what's your theory?

347
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Speaker 3: Well, I've got to be a little bit careful about

348
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Speaker 3: how I talk about this, Craig, because my other job,

349
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Speaker 3: by full time job, is working for the government, so

350
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Speaker 3: I'm not actually allowed to comment on government policy, right,

351
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Speaker 3: But I would say, more broadly, think about the last

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Speaker 3: two years, Craig, and the economic circumstances that we've all faced.

353
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Speaker 3: It's been I don't think it's too much to say

354
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Speaker 3: it's been a cost of living crisis. We've all faced

355
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 3: the crunch of inflation, and small businesses are heavily impacted

356
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Speaker 3: by that, and most GP clinics, even today when there

357
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 3: are these large practice owners around, most GP clinics are

358
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 3: still small businesses and so when their costs go up,

359
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 3: they unfortunately a lot of them, have to make the

360
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,159
Speaker 3: choice between continuing to both bill only certain groups and

361
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 3: charging out a pocket cost for their regular adult patients,

362
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 3: or some of them have to look at cutting costs

363
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 3: elsewhere or potentially shutting down if they're not able to

364
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 3: continue to bold fill their clientele or make ends meet

365
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 3: in other ways. So I think that's why we're seeing

366
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 3: the bolk billing rate ball and fall so rapidly over

367
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Speaker 3: the last two years. Is just we've faced very difficult

368
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Speaker 3: economic circumstances over the last few years, and we're seeing

369
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 3: these play out with GP clinics, which are mostly small businesses.

370
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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right, okay, all right, So number one is

371
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,880
Speaker 1: bolt billing rates is on the slide one third down

372
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Speaker 1: to one fifth. Yep, all right.

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Speaker 3: Next, well, what's really interesting is, well, Craig, is how

374
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 3: these bulk billing rates stack up within the states and territories.

375
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Speaker 3: Because the national bolt building rate is overwhelmingly being held

376
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Speaker 3: up by New South Wales at this stage, right Musicwealth

377
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 3: has a thirty four point five percent vault billing rate.

378
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 3: Over half the volt billing clinics nationally are located in

379
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Speaker 3: New South Wales. Wow, Yeah, which means that all of

380
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 3: the other states have far lower bolt billing rates. In fact,

381
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 3: Victoria and Queensland are the only two other states now

382
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 3: that have a vault billing rate above ten percent.

383
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: Wow wow, that's amazing. I mean, so so all of

384
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: the states other than Queensland and Victoria are below ten.

385
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 3: Percent, below ten percent. Yeah, Tasmania is currently at zero percent.

386
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 1: Wow wow wow. Okay, yeap.

387
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 3: What's really interesting as well is when you break this

388
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 3: down by numbers. So Western Australia has six hundred and

389
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 3: sixty one clinics that we were able to find. Thirty

390
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 3: seven of those we have listed as bold billing, which

391
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 3: is a six point two percent bolt billing rate. But

392
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 3: if you break that down by population, that means that

393
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,399
Speaker 3: there's now one bold billing clinic in Western Australia for

394
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 3: every forty six thousand, six hundred and thirty nine adults.

395
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. And as you were saying before, like

396
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: not all of these bulk billing clinics are open to

397
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: new patients, is that right?

398
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 3: So the way that we measure them when we're talking

399
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 3: about these percentages, all of these are open to new patients,

400
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 3: right right, right. In actuality, the bulk billing rate may

401
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 3: in fact be a little bit higher than this places

402
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 3: than what we're reporting. But those clinics are not taking

403
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 3: on new patients. It's not super helpful if you're a

404
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 3: new patient looking for a clinic around there.

405
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, of course, of course. And so I mean,

406
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 1: what's the bottom line for the bottom line is just

407
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: that the bottom line is higher for patients and for

408
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: the general public.

409
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And we see this playing out in the

410
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 3: average out of pocket costs. So some time ago, the

411
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 3: out of pocket cost, the average amount that you're paying

412
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 3: started started increasing to the point that it now exceeds

413
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 3: the Medicare rebate in and of itself. So the Medicare

414
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 3: rebate is forty two dollars and eighty five cents for

415
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 3: standard consultation, and the average out of pocket cost that

416
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: you're paying is forty three dollars and thirty eight cents.

417
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 3: So you're paying double the Medicare rebate for a standard

418
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 3: consultation and you're getting less than half of that out

419
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Speaker 3: from Medicare when you're when you're going to see the GP.

420
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: And do you think, James, I mean, if you have

421
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 1: any data on this, but you're I mean, you're in

422
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: and around it. Do you feel like you know, people

423
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: are not going to the doctor who perhaps should be

424
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 1: going to the doctor purely just because they can't afford it,

425
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: and they've got to choose between buying food for the

426
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: kids or going to see about that pain they've got

427
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: in their bloody left ear.

428
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 3: This is a really, really good question, Craig. And thankfully,

429
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 3: whilst Klingber isn't able to collect statistics on this, the

430
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 3: Australian Bureau of Statistics does publish statistics on this. So

431
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 3: each year in November they publish the percentage of Australians

432
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: over the age of fifteen who haven't gone to see

433
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 3: a GP because of concerns surrounding costs in the previous year.

434
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 3: So literally just what you've just asked, they published. And

435
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 3: what's interesting is that in twenty twenty one, twenty two,

436
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 3: which is the first, which is the which we're released

437
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 3: in November of twenty twenty two, and so we're incorporated

438
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: into our twenty twenty three Blue Reports, the percentage of

439
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 3: Australians over the age of fifteen who hadn't gone to

440
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: see a GP because of concerns and cost was three

441
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: point five percent. Now that's about six hundred thousand Australians

442
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: that percentage now two years later is eight point eight percent,

443
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 3: which is over one point five million Australians. So you've

444
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: seen just a truly enormous increase in just the last

445
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 3: two years. And the number of Australians who aren't going

446
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 3: to see the doctor because of costs.

447
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: Hang on, let me just so, one point five million

448
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: people who need to go the doctor have not gone

449
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: to the doctor purely, not because they don't want to go,

450
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: or not because they don't need to go, but because

451
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: they can't afford it. That's that's scary, isn't it? It is?

452
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 3: And it has brought implications for the healthcare system that

453
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 3: we're living in because for how much longer can you

454
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 3: consider that you have a universal healthcare system If you

455
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: have over one one and a half million Australians not

456
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: going to see the doctor because of costs. If the

457
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: entire purpose of a universal healthcare system is to ensure

458
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 3: that people can see a doctor regardless of their economic circumstances,

459
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 3: that would seem to be a fairly indicted, a fairly

460
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: clear indictment on that system when that many Australians can't

461
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: go to see a doctor because of costs.

462
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: So I mean with this report, which is enlightening and

463
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: kind of shocking to be honest, What are the underlying aims?

464
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: You know, what are the drivers? What do you want

465
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: to happen? I'm sure there's not a thing, there's many things,

466
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: but what would you like to see happening? Mate?

467
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 3: Well, there are really two goals that we have in

468
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 3: releasing a report like this. The first is the same

469
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: goal that I've had for every piece of media that

470
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 3: I've released, every report I've released for the media since

471
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 3: the Mind the Gap days, and that is to provide

472
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: to peace people an idea of the coverage that clean

473
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 3: bill has and the fact that clean bill exists out

474
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 3: there as a free website that they can use to

475
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: go and find GPS around them, because whilst these statistics

476
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 3: may look dire, it is still possible in most areas

477
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 3: to find either a bowl filling or a low out

478
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: of pocket cost GP. And having a service like clean bill,

479
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 3: a free service like clean built that shows people where

480
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: these GP clinics are, lets them filter them by their

481
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 3: pricing and then see exactly how much it'll cost to

482
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: go on them. They have to pick up a phone

483
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: is critically important to ensuring that people are able to

484
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 3: find the doctors who they can afford and who are

485
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: available to see them. So that's one of the reasons

486
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 3: that we release the report is just to create awareness

487
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 3: of the service that clean Bill provides. But the second

488
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: reason that has become a lot clearer since releasing these

489
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 3: reports under the banner of clean Built, just because of

490
00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 3: how comprehensive the statistics have become, is that Kleanbal's the

491
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 3: only one doing this. We're the only ones even trying

492
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 3: to find every single GP clinics across the country, and

493
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 3: we're certainly the only ones reporting on availability rates, on

494
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: foulfilling rate on a clinic by clinic basis, which is

495
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 3: how people interact with their GP clinics. The way that

496
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: we publish this data reflects how people interact with GPS

497
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: around them, and so when we're publishing these reports, what

498
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: we're hoping to do is provide decision makers both at

499
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: the federal and state level with the best information possible

500
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 3: to inform the policy decisions that they're making. So we're

501
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 3: not partisan about this, We're not advocating for one side

502
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 3: or the other. What we're saying is this is the

503
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 3: state of healthcare in Australia. We've arrived at this state

504
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 3: and arrived at this description of this state by going

505
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: through the process that everyday Australians have to go through

506
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 3: every single time they're looking for a new GP, and

507
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: this is what it looks like for them. And so

508
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 3: decision makers can then take this information that we provided

509
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 3: and it can assist them what we hope it can

510
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 3: assist them in designing policies that will ensure that Australians

511
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: are more able to find those faulk building all well

512
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 3: out of cost options around them.

513
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for a noble intention. I'm just having a

514
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: look everyone at the Clean Build site. It's just clean

515
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: build dot com dot au. Super super clean and sharp,

516
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: no pun intended, but very nice sight mate, very just

517
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: very clean and clear and almost dare I say clinical,

518
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: but not in a boring way. Everyone. So if you

519
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: want to have a look at what James is talking about,

520
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: and you want to do a little bit of a

521
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: search yourself and whether not you're a potential patient or

522
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: even if you are a provider like a doctor or

523
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: a dermatologist or dentist blah blah blah, think am I

524
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: right in saying that? Yeah?

525
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Craig and Also, all of the reports that we

526
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: release are on the website food, So if you want

527
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: to see, you know, what's happening with dermatologists on a

528
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: national level, we release the report into them in October

529
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 3: of last year, and you can go on the website

530
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: and see that report in full too.

531
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing. What else do you want

532
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: to share with a smike before you go anything we

533
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: need to know or consider or you want us to

534
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: have a look into.

535
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 3: Uh, well, look, I mean I think you've been incredibly

536
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: comprehensive creage in everything that you've covered off on here today.

537
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: I would say as well that the website is completely

538
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 3: free to use when you're when you're going out and

539
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 3: doing those searches, so there's there's no fee attached as

540
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 3: a membership or anything like that. So yeah, it's really

541
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: just to reiterate that that's the services out there and

542
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 3: one that people can use completely free of charts.

543
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: But James is starting a cult, but that's a separate thing.

544
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: So.

545
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: Night Craig, let's not get into that.

546
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: While yeah, just google clean build cult. You're so he's

547
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: not I'm being silly. I mean, do you know what's

548
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: funny for me? Sitting here. Okay, interview over officially, But

549
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: what's funny sitting here for me, mate, is I know

550
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: you probably hate this, but you're so much like your

551
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: dad and just the way that you talk and the

552
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: way that you phrase things, and yeah, I don't know

553
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: if you like that or hate that, but he's a

554
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: pretty bloody good communicator. So it's not the worst trait,

555
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: you know. Just before we go one, thank you so much, mate,

556
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: Just dear people, So, is that the only place you

557
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: want to kind of send people clean build dot com

558
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: dot au. Do you want to steer them towards any

559
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: social media or anything? Oh?

560
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean actually that's thank you for bringing that up, Craig.

561
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: I'm only just getting used to that now because we've

562
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 3: only just started up some social media recently. So if

563
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 3: you search at clean bill oz, we're on everything except

564
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: for Twitter x or whatever it's called now. We're on TikTok,

565
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 3: We're on YouTube, on Instagram and basically what I've been

566
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: doing with those with the videos that we've been putting

567
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: up there is just really short, one minute long videos

568
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: that explain some element of the healthcare system, because at

569
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: the moment, Australia has one of the most complex healthcare

570
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 3: systems on Earth, and a lot of the stuff that

571
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 3: you and I have spoken about here today, Craig, a

572
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: lot of the terms that we're using, things like folk filling,

573
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: things like out of pocket cost, may be quite new

574
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 3: to a lot of people, so that we have some

575
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 3: socials and it's really just videos explaining out what those

576
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 3: terms mean, why we're in the state that we're in

577
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: when it comes to bolth filling, what the government statistics

578
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: mean and why they're different to clean Bill statistics, and

579
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: also just explainers of the reports that we release as well.

580
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: So we'll be doing an in depth explainer of the

581
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 3: Blue Report, going into a little bit more detail than

582
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 3: you and I have today, Craig, and things like that.

583
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: So if people are interested in learning a little bit

584
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 3: more about clean Bill's background and also seeing a little

585
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: bit more about the healthcare system and the reports we release,

586
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: it's at clean bill oz on just about every social

587
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: media you can find.

588
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: And when you say os is a US.

589
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 3: Or a US, it occurred to me, as I said

590
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: at Craig, that was slightly as well. Yeah, Cleanville a US.

591
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: James Gillespie from Clean Bill, you're a gun mate, we'll

592
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: chat next year, I'm sure, and we'll say goodbye off

593
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: in a moment, but for now, thanks for being on

594
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: the You project mate, Thanks very much, Craig