1 00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:07,410 Jennifer Duke: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Jennifer Duke. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,569 Jennifer Duke: When the Federal Government legislated Australia's emissions reduction target of 43% 3 00:00:12,570 --> 00:00:16,619 Jennifer Duke: by 2030, and net- zero emissions by 2050, businesses were 4 00:00:16,619 --> 00:00:20,880 Jennifer Duke: given something they really needed, certainty. They now know the 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,270 Jennifer Duke: target and everyone is working towards the same goal. But 6 00:00:24,270 --> 00:00:26,819 Jennifer Duke: it's one thing to set a target, it's entirely another 7 00:00:26,820 --> 00:00:29,879 Jennifer Duke: to actually achieve it. Today we're going to take a 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,909 Jennifer Duke: closer look at some of the challenges businesses face in 9 00:00:32,909 --> 00:00:36,509 Jennifer Duke: the net- zero transition. NRG- ONE is an energy services 10 00:00:36,510 --> 00:00:40,050 Jennifer Duke: company working with Australian businesses to transition to net- zero. 11 00:00:40,530 --> 00:00:44,429 Jennifer Duke: Its parent company NRG Services has been responsible for major 12 00:00:44,429 --> 00:00:48,690 Jennifer Duke: sustainability projects in Queensland, including the largest battery energy storage 13 00:00:48,690 --> 00:00:52,109 Jennifer Duke: system of its type in Australia. Carl Duncan is the 14 00:00:52,109 --> 00:00:54,900 Jennifer Duke: CEO of NRG-ONE. Carl, welcome to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:55,230 --> 00:00:56,610 Carl Duncan: Hey Jennifer, thanks for having me on. 16 00:00:57,630 --> 00:01:00,570 Jennifer Duke: So I want to get right into the big question. Firstly, do you 17 00:01:00,570 --> 00:01:03,450 Jennifer Duke: think that we can hit the target of 43% emissions 18 00:01:03,450 --> 00:01:04,860 Jennifer Duke: reduction by 2030? 19 00:01:05,459 --> 00:01:07,679 Carl Duncan: Yeah, it's a big question isn't it? And it is 20 00:01:07,679 --> 00:01:10,770 Carl Duncan: a big goal, but I think goal being the important 21 00:01:10,770 --> 00:01:14,400 Carl Duncan: thing and to have a plan and flesh things out, and 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,490 Carl Duncan: like you discussed at the start, having certainty is such 23 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:20,490 Carl Duncan: an important thing for business leaders all to get rallied around. 24 00:01:21,030 --> 00:01:23,999 Carl Duncan: And so look, I think it's not going to be childsplay. 25 00:01:24,209 --> 00:01:25,860 Carl Duncan: It's going to be a challenge for sure, and it's 26 00:01:25,860 --> 00:01:28,980 Carl Duncan: going to be more difficult for some than others. But 27 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:31,410 Carl Duncan: I think what we see now is just really exciting. 28 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:35,970 Carl Duncan: Everyone's just after years of talking about things and reporting 29 00:01:35,970 --> 00:01:39,449 Carl Duncan: and gearing up, we are now just seeing this really 30 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:42,270 Carl Duncan: big heave-ho. Business leaders are wrapping their arms around it. 31 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:45,690 Carl Duncan: Lots of the businesses we're talking to are getting after 32 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:48,900 Carl Duncan: it and just getting things done. So yeah, it's exciting times. 33 00:01:49,710 --> 00:01:52,410 Jennifer Duke: I absolutely love the optimism. I am keen to know 34 00:01:52,410 --> 00:01:55,080 Jennifer Duke: if there are particular types of businesses or sectors that 35 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,840 Jennifer Duke: you think might struggle more through this transition than others? 36 00:01:59,099 --> 00:02:01,889 Carl Duncan: Yeah, that's a big question. Actually, if I can just 37 00:02:01,889 --> 00:02:04,169 Carl Duncan: flip that, I think I'd probably talk to some of 38 00:02:04,170 --> 00:02:08,790 Carl Duncan: the examples of businesses and sectors that probably are less 39 00:02:08,790 --> 00:02:12,990 Carl Duncan: challenged because of the approach that they're taking. If I 40 00:02:12,990 --> 00:02:15,840 Carl Duncan: point to examples, like the red meat sector for example, 41 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:19,770 Carl Duncan: they've set out an ambitious goal to be carbon-neutral by 2030. 42 00:02:20,309 --> 00:02:24,630 Carl Duncan: And by doing that, whilst that is a big BHAG of 43 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,020 Carl Duncan: a goal, big hairy audacious goal, it's driven a whole 44 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:31,470 Carl Duncan: bunch of research and development, a whole bunch of planning. 45 00:02:31,470 --> 00:02:34,800 Carl Duncan: It's driven investment and focus and expertise to come into 46 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,039 Carl Duncan: the sector. And so by having that North Star, everyone 47 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,010 Carl Duncan: gets rallied around it and starts to take a really good 48 00:02:41,250 --> 00:02:43,829 Carl Duncan: review of their own businesses and how they can align 49 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,850 Carl Duncan: with those goals, start planning and then more importantly, start 50 00:02:47,850 --> 00:02:51,750 Carl Duncan: doing the things that make sense today. So I think that's 51 00:02:51,750 --> 00:02:55,410 Carl Duncan: a good example of where having that foresight, that direction, 52 00:02:55,410 --> 00:02:58,529 Carl Duncan: that North Star, is super important. But to come back 53 00:02:58,529 --> 00:03:01,650 Carl Duncan: to your question, question around what sectors I think might be challenged, 54 00:03:01,770 --> 00:03:06,209 Carl Duncan: obviously sectors where heavily into say fossil fuels, for example, 55 00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:09,480 Carl Duncan: where there may not be technologies today that can get 56 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,258 Carl Duncan: them to net-zero, then sure that's obviously a lot more challenging. 57 00:03:13,258 --> 00:03:16,230 Carl Duncan: Or where the investment is just such that it doesn't 58 00:03:16,230 --> 00:03:20,010 Carl Duncan: make economic sense or there's not something viable today they 59 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:23,458 Carl Duncan: can get into, then that creates longer, more difficult challenges, 60 00:03:23,460 --> 00:03:26,520 Carl Duncan: which lots of people around the world are working really, 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:27,389 Carl Duncan: really hard to solve. 62 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,570 Jennifer Duke: Definitely. And I love that reframing at the beginning of 63 00:03:30,570 --> 00:03:33,599 Jennifer Duke: your answer there about how it's not just necessarily about 64 00:03:33,599 --> 00:03:36,270 Jennifer Duke: a broad brush stroke about a sector, but it's about 65 00:03:36,270 --> 00:03:39,210 Jennifer Duke: their approach to it. And clearly there isn't really some 66 00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:41,730 Jennifer Duke: sort of one size fits all solution for businesses. So 67 00:03:42,180 --> 00:03:44,400 Jennifer Duke: how complex is it for a business to come up with 68 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,150 Jennifer Duke: that pathway? 69 00:03:45,929 --> 00:03:48,960 Carl Duncan: Like anything, I think it's about setting a North Star, 70 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,469 Carl Duncan: setting a goal, taking a step back, being strategic about it. 71 00:03:52,469 --> 00:03:56,970 Carl Duncan: So I don't think any executive or CEO or management 72 00:03:56,970 --> 00:03:59,430 Carl Duncan: team ever set out to grow a company without any 73 00:03:59,430 --> 00:04:02,910 Carl Duncan: growth goals or any aspirations. They always set where they're 74 00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:05,849 Carl Duncan: trying to get to and rally around it. And this 75 00:04:05,849 --> 00:04:09,270 Carl Duncan: is no different. It's about taking a step back, getting 76 00:04:09,270 --> 00:04:13,440 Carl Duncan: experts in where it makes sense, looking at your emission stack, 77 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,040 Carl Duncan: looking at what technologies are available to you depending on 78 00:04:17,490 --> 00:04:20,099 Carl Duncan: the type of business, and then setting a plan out 79 00:04:20,099 --> 00:04:22,589 Carl Duncan: around it, making sure that it's resourced, making sure you've 80 00:04:22,589 --> 00:04:26,159 Carl Duncan: got capital or making sure that there's appropriate business models 81 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,309 Carl Duncan: there that can be leveraged to get towards net-zero. 82 00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:32,880 Jennifer Duke: So when you are working with businesses at the moment, 83 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,680 Jennifer Duke: what are some of those big stumbling blocks that you 84 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,750 Jennifer Duke: are working through with businesses? 85 00:04:37,410 --> 00:04:40,950 Carl Duncan: Yeah, first of all, we obviously start with an assessment process and try 86 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:45,689 Carl Duncan: to get our customers closer to understanding what makes sense 87 00:04:45,690 --> 00:04:47,910 Carl Duncan: for them here and now, what they can do today. 88 00:04:48,299 --> 00:04:52,080 Carl Duncan: And get those results and see how that drives benefit 89 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,950 Carl Duncan: for their businesses. But yeah, definitely stumbling blocks, I think 90 00:04:55,950 --> 00:04:57,929 Carl Duncan: a lot of people just don't know where to start, 91 00:04:57,990 --> 00:05:00,599 Carl Duncan: especially a lot of the noise and things like that 92 00:05:00,599 --> 00:05:03,808 Carl Duncan: that go around with net- zero can sometimes make it 93 00:05:03,809 --> 00:05:08,670 Carl Duncan: seem over complicated. We generally find the most consistent thing 94 00:05:08,670 --> 00:05:13,200 Carl Duncan: throughout the economy is energy supply. And so typically starting 95 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:18,210 Carl Duncan: with that, usually we'll walk into a facility and pretty 96 00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:21,299 Carl Duncan: quickly we'll be able to identify the opportunities that make sense 97 00:05:21,299 --> 00:05:23,940 Carl Duncan: here and now and what technologies make sense for that business. 98 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,220 Jennifer Duke: Stay with me, Carl, we'll be back in a minute. 99 00:05:32,428 --> 00:05:35,520 Jennifer Duke: My guest this morning is Carl Duncan, the CEO of NRG- 100 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,719 Jennifer Duke: ONE. Is there still a cost premium attached to greener 101 00:05:39,719 --> 00:05:42,329 Jennifer Duke: energy and does that make it harder to sell to 102 00:05:42,330 --> 00:05:44,190 Jennifer Duke: businesses who are already under financial pressure? 103 00:05:45,420 --> 00:05:48,210 Carl Duncan: Yeah, it's two- sided and the first part of your 104 00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:52,620 Carl Duncan: question there rings home. So with those soaring prices also 105 00:05:52,620 --> 00:05:56,428 Carl Duncan: means that the investment time or the investment is stronger 106 00:05:56,428 --> 00:06:00,389 Carl Duncan: in things like energy efficiency and renewables. What we see 107 00:06:00,389 --> 00:06:03,570 Carl Duncan: though is very much a tailoring. What we apply is 108 00:06:03,570 --> 00:06:07,920 Carl Duncan: very much a tailoring approach. We're a customer-centric energy services 109 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,000 Carl Duncan: business at NRG-ONE. And so we'll always start with things 110 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,109 Carl Duncan: like behind the meter or renewables that makes sense on 111 00:06:16,109 --> 00:06:20,280 Carl Duncan: our customer sites first coupled and integrated with energy efficiency 112 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:22,979 Carl Duncan: because chances are that's going to give the best bang 113 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:26,549 Carl Duncan: for buck day one, as opposed to those much, much 114 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:30,599 Carl Duncan: bigger things like purchasing green energy, for example, off the 115 00:06:30,599 --> 00:06:34,409 Carl Duncan: grid as part of a long-term agreement. It really is horses 116 00:06:34,410 --> 00:06:37,529 Carl Duncan: for courses though. So it's about understanding that particular business 117 00:06:37,529 --> 00:06:41,820 Carl Duncan: and what makes sense. And often it's cheaper so there 118 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:44,130 Carl Duncan: doesn't have to be a premium attached to it. We're 119 00:06:44,130 --> 00:06:48,719 Carl Duncan: definitely seeing lots of things like people fuel switch or 120 00:06:48,719 --> 00:06:52,109 Carl Duncan: electrify processes, and chances are that's actually cheaper than how 121 00:06:52,109 --> 00:06:52,680 Carl Duncan: they're doing it today. 122 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,880 Jennifer Duke: That actually really surprises me. Does that surprise a lot of 123 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,680 Jennifer Duke: businesses as well when they're talking to you about what 124 00:06:58,680 --> 00:06:59,190 Jennifer Duke: they can do? 125 00:07:00,540 --> 00:07:04,349 Carl Duncan: Yeah, it does sometimes. But again, I think it's just 126 00:07:04,349 --> 00:07:06,988 Carl Duncan: like anything, right? When you get the right experts in 127 00:07:06,990 --> 00:07:10,289 Carl Duncan: that understand their field and understand it well, and you 128 00:07:10,289 --> 00:07:14,130 Carl Duncan: form a collaborative partnership with them and use that expertise 129 00:07:14,130 --> 00:07:16,920 Carl Duncan: well, then often that'll ... You turn over a few rocks 130 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,740 Carl Duncan: and you start to uncover a few opportunities there that 131 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:21,120 Carl Duncan: can really enhance your business. 132 00:07:22,530 --> 00:07:25,259 Jennifer Duke: And we discussed a little bit at the start about 133 00:07:25,259 --> 00:07:28,469 Jennifer Duke: the importance of certainty for business. How important has that 134 00:07:28,469 --> 00:07:31,290 Jennifer Duke: been for knowing the path ahead, having those goals and 135 00:07:31,290 --> 00:07:32,520 Jennifer Duke: those stepping stones in place? 136 00:07:33,090 --> 00:07:36,510 Carl Duncan: I think it really rings home. You can't put a 137 00:07:36,510 --> 00:07:43,259 Carl Duncan: value on having certainty, particularly Australian business leaders have got 138 00:07:43,259 --> 00:07:45,990 Carl Duncan: a really good radar of what works and what's coming 139 00:07:45,990 --> 00:07:50,520 Carl Duncan: at them. And when that position is set and it's 140 00:07:50,910 --> 00:07:53,670 Carl Duncan: everywhere, everybody starts to get rallied around it, talks about 141 00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:57,480 Carl Duncan: it. I think everybody knows it now just makes sense. 142 00:07:57,540 --> 00:07:59,939 Carl Duncan: And so they're really just getting into it. And so 143 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:03,300 Carl Duncan: that business certainty as a community, as a business community, is 144 00:08:03,809 --> 00:08:05,280 Carl Duncan: a really, really powerful thing. 145 00:08:05,970 --> 00:08:08,340 Jennifer Duke: Definitely, I think that's a big tick in the certainty 146 00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:11,880 Jennifer Duke: box, which is wonderful. Speaking still of government, is there 147 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,520 Jennifer Duke: enough support though in other ways from government for businesses 148 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,290 Jennifer Duke: to transition at the moment? Are there other things that 149 00:08:16,290 --> 00:08:17,070 Jennifer Duke: you'd like to see? 150 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,229 Carl Duncan: Yeah, that's a big question. I think there's a whole 151 00:08:22,230 --> 00:08:26,700 Carl Duncan: gamut of grants and various types of funding support or 152 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:33,780 Carl Duncan: loans equity, all sorts of mechanisms to help organisations transition 153 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:37,530 Carl Duncan: to net-zero. And that's a great thing. Certainly having certainty 154 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:40,228 Carl Duncan: around where the country's trying to get to is a 155 00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:44,098 Carl Duncan: good thing also. Probably the gap for us, there's a 156 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:48,210 Carl Duncan: whole bunch of effort on transitioning utility scale energy supply, 157 00:08:48,210 --> 00:08:51,570 Carl Duncan: which is great. It's fantastic. It'll get us some big results, 158 00:08:52,020 --> 00:08:53,789 Carl Duncan: but we probably think there's still a bit of a 159 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:58,260 Carl Duncan: gap around what we call DER or Distributed Energy Resources 160 00:08:58,350 --> 00:09:02,220 Carl Duncan: and energy efficiency. Those are the things we see on 161 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:06,330 Carl Duncan: customer sites or on business sites within their own boundaries, 162 00:09:06,330 --> 00:09:10,710 Carl Duncan: that can really drive and enhance productivity for businesses specifically. 163 00:09:11,370 --> 00:09:13,769 Carl Duncan: And so yeah, we think there's probably a bit more 164 00:09:13,830 --> 00:09:16,889 Carl Duncan: that could be done there to really turbocharge the whole 165 00:09:17,070 --> 00:09:20,550 Carl Duncan: net-zero transition and provide some real value for businesses. 166 00:09:20,550 --> 00:09:23,309 Jennifer Duke: And the other thing I was going to ask you 167 00:09:23,309 --> 00:09:25,679 Jennifer Duke: about is, I know you've mentioned that sometimes we are 168 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,740 Jennifer Duke: seeing executives now increasingly bringing in those experts to help 169 00:09:28,830 --> 00:09:32,280 Jennifer Duke: with this transition, are you finding that boardrooms and executives, 170 00:09:33,059 --> 00:09:35,760 Jennifer Duke: they have the right skills at the moment to understand 171 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,770 Jennifer Duke: what they need to do for the transition? Are they 172 00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:39,480 Jennifer Duke: bringing the experts at the right time? Have you got 173 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:40,500 Jennifer Duke: any reflections on that? 174 00:09:41,190 --> 00:09:44,730 Carl Duncan: Yeah, getting around and talking to a few executives within 175 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:48,599 Carl Duncan: my network, I think they're starting to, and probably the 176 00:09:48,599 --> 00:09:54,118 Carl Duncan: conversation's really shifted more into or being woven into sustainability strategy, 177 00:09:54,629 --> 00:09:59,130 Carl Duncan: which I think is a really clever thing. So a lot of executive C-Suite 178 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,669 Carl Duncan: people I'm talking to are thinking about not just how 179 00:10:02,670 --> 00:10:05,488 Carl Duncan: can I bring the benefits forward now? How can I 180 00:10:05,490 --> 00:10:08,520 Carl Duncan: reduce my energy costs and all those sorts of productivity 181 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,090 Carl Duncan: gains and good things that the net-zero transition can bring 182 00:10:12,090 --> 00:10:15,360 Carl Duncan: to their business. But they're also going a step further 183 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,319 Carl Duncan: in baking and sustainability strategy and working with organisations like NRG-ONE 184 00:10:19,860 --> 00:10:24,599 Carl Duncan: to say, okay, I've got this brand. How can I plug 185 00:10:24,599 --> 00:10:27,629 Carl Duncan: in a net-zero strategy? How can I make my brand 186 00:10:27,630 --> 00:10:30,300 Carl Duncan: and my product more valuable? How can I get a 187 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:32,520 Carl Duncan: seat at the table with my customers and bring my 188 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:37,380 Carl Duncan: sustainability A-game? And so I think that's a really clever move, 189 00:10:37,380 --> 00:10:40,620 Carl Duncan: and we're seeing a lot of organisations and well-known brands 190 00:10:40,710 --> 00:10:43,319 Carl Duncan: wrap their arms around that and start to bake it 191 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:45,780 Carl Duncan: into their businesses going forward. 192 00:10:46,410 --> 00:10:49,530 Jennifer Duke: It's absolutely fascinating, and I think this is a place 193 00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:52,530 Jennifer Duke: that we'll be looking at very, very closely going forward. 194 00:10:52,530 --> 00:10:54,598 Jennifer Duke: But Carl, thank you very much for talking to Fear 195 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:55,050 Jennifer Duke: and Greed. 196 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,409 Carl Duncan: Oh, thanks very much, Jen. I'm a longtime listener. I 197 00:10:58,410 --> 00:11:02,910 Carl Duncan: really enjoy the podcast and enjoy doing everything you're doing. But thanks for having me on the show. 198 00:11:02,910 --> 00:11:06,449 Jennifer Duke: And that was Carl Duncan, the CEO of NRG-ONE. This 199 00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:08,968 Jennifer Duke: is The Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every 200 00:11:08,970 --> 00:11:11,850 Jennifer Duke: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 201 00:11:11,850 --> 00:11:15,750 Jennifer Duke: most popular business podcast. I'm Jennifer Duke, Economics Correspondent for 202 00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:18,360 Jennifer Duke: Capital Brief and filling in for Sean Aylmer. Have a 203 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:18,900 Jennifer Duke: great day.