WEBVTT - Does Anthony Albanese finally get it?

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Friday, December nineteen, twenty twenty five. Anthony Albanezi is

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<v Speaker 1>pivoting hard to deal with the problem of anti Semitism.

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<v Speaker 1>After an exhausting week in which we've all felt what

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<v Speaker 1>Nicholas Jensen calls a continental shelf of rage and grief,

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<v Speaker 1>the federal government will legislate a crackdown on anti Semitism

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<v Speaker 1>and hate preachers from universities to border force.

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<v Speaker 2>Today.

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<v Speaker 1>Yonnie Bachan and Nicholas Jensen join me to debate how

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<v Speaker 1>things will play out from here. For this episode, I

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<v Speaker 1>was joined in the studio by two of the Australians

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<v Speaker 1>most thoughtful people, opinion editor Nicholas Jensen and senior journalist

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<v Speaker 1>Yonnie Bashan. The first voice you'll hear is Nicholas.

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<v Speaker 3>Everything still feels very raw and I think the emotion

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<v Speaker 3>is kind of ratcheting up.

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<v Speaker 4>What's been both your reads. I suppose that the last

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<v Speaker 4>twenty four.

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<v Speaker 5>Hours disappointment after disappointment after disappointment until today, I felt

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<v Speaker 5>that the Prime Minister's announcements today and the government's announcement

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<v Speaker 5>on what they were going to do were welcome, overdue

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<v Speaker 5>and still clearly in development. They're clearly scrambling for answers

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<v Speaker 5>to this. But I think these are solutions that should

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<v Speaker 5>have been supplied months ago. I don't know why he

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<v Speaker 5>had to wait another four days to announce them, but

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<v Speaker 5>here we are.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, overdue. I think a lot of people are thinking that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the Prime Minister's attitude from the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>this crisis has been shock and horror, like so many

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<v Speaker 1>of us felt initially. But then I think he went

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<v Speaker 1>very quickly and probably too quickly, towards But isn't Australia great.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't it wonderful that brave people stepped up and more

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<v Speaker 1>lives were not lost. Then he started talking about gun

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<v Speaker 1>law reform, and that's where I think he completely misread

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<v Speaker 1>the mood. So it is only on Thursday, four days

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<v Speaker 1>after the crisis, that the government, the Commonwealth Government, has

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<v Speaker 1>begun talking seriously about recalling Parliament and indicated that they're

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<v Speaker 1>now working on hate speech laws, cracking down on anti

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<v Speaker 1>Semitism in terms of language and acts, new visa rules,

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<v Speaker 1>and dealing with the hate preachers who have helped create

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<v Speaker 1>so much of this environment.

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<v Speaker 3>Yesterday I looked at the transcripts of some of the

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<v Speaker 3>interviews he did doing the media rounds, and when he

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<v Speaker 3>got up today at Parliament, he was reproducing a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of those stock lines that he has about what the

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<v Speaker 3>government's doing.

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<v Speaker 4>And you do get the sense that he's.

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<v Speaker 3>Kind of almost like an earnest bank clerk, is running

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<v Speaker 3>through a.

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<v Speaker 4>Checklist that he's satisfied that he's got right.

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<v Speaker 3>But my sense is that he's not tapping into the

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<v Speaker 3>mood or tapping into an emotional register that people want

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<v Speaker 3>from their national leader. There's this continental shelf of rage

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<v Speaker 3>and grief, and people want that reflected, I think in

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<v Speaker 3>their leader.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think the.

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<v Speaker 5>Other grave misstep that I think he and other ministers

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<v Speaker 5>have made is defending their record on this for the

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<v Speaker 5>last four days, saying well, we've done more than any

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<v Speaker 5>other government has done, and we've done this, we've done this,

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<v Speaker 5>and we've thrown money at this and that, and then

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<v Speaker 5>a few days later saying well, we clearly haven't done enough,

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<v Speaker 5>and now we're going to scramble in, pull all these

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<v Speaker 5>other resources together and enact all of the solutions that

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<v Speaker 5>you've been asking for for months. I think that just

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<v Speaker 5>betrays a leader and a government that is in a

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<v Speaker 5>tactical war to try and bet this down, rather than

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<v Speaker 5>a government that actually sees and diagnoses a problem and

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<v Speaker 5>tries to fix it. I mean, if I had to

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<v Speaker 5>use a word to describe the government over the past

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<v Speaker 5>few days, it's that it's misdiagnosed the problem the entire time.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, what was the first thing that Anthony Albinizi did.

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<v Speaker 5>He started looking at gun law reform. That's great, but

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<v Speaker 5>that's scratching at the age. It's the root course of

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<v Speaker 5>the problem is this anti semitism issue. And for whatever reason,

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<v Speaker 5>and we all have our theories on it, the government's

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<v Speaker 5>just been in and dial about how to handle this.

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<v Speaker 1>It was only on Thursday that the Prime Minister admitted

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<v Speaker 1>that he's done things wrong. He hasn't done things perfectly

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<v Speaker 1>since October seventeen, twenty three, and the change in tone

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty four hours is remarkable and I think I'd.

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<v Speaker 2>Love to know what you guys think.

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<v Speaker 1>There can be no denying that this is because Josh

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<v Speaker 1>Frodenberg went down to Bondi Beach and made a speech

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<v Speaker 1>that hit all the notes that the Prime Minister has

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<v Speaker 1>failed to hit in the past few days. It was raw,

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<v Speaker 1>it was angry, it was emotional, and it's set out

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<v Speaker 1>very logically the intellectual progression from antisemitism as an idea

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<v Speaker 1>to violent action.

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<v Speaker 5>I almost feel in my cynical heart of hearts that

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<v Speaker 5>talking more about ISIS and magnifying the role of ISIS

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<v Speaker 5>in this provides an escape patch for the Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 5>not to talk as much about anti Semitism, because Isis, yes,

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<v Speaker 5>is anti Semitic, but ISIS is actually just she had

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<v Speaker 5>us an anti Western and I worry that that has

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<v Speaker 5>been strategic and possibly tactical in its deployment outwardly. What

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<v Speaker 5>this government has done is push Israel away further than

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<v Speaker 5>any other Australian government has done in generations. And that

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<v Speaker 5>would suggest that Anthony Albinezi, which is talking about him,

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<v Speaker 5>just doesn't like Israel very much. And he was also,

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<v Speaker 5>i believe, the convenor of Labor Friends of Palestine several

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<v Speaker 5>decades ago.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, This is student politics kind of for grown ups,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it. You know they were both labor from their

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<v Speaker 1>adolescence and labor left, and one of the shibbiliths of

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<v Speaker 1>the labor left is that Israel is a colonizing state

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<v Speaker 1>and is illegitimate. Free Palestine is kind of what they

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<v Speaker 1>bang on about at Young Labor meetings on university campuses.

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<v Speaker 1>The difference in October seven, twenty twenty three is that

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<v Speaker 1>that idea then spilled into the mainstream and became a

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<v Speaker 1>thing on social media that Abby Chatfield was talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>But why then, when most are the kind of sensible

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<v Speaker 1>adults who are on that progression that you have from

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<v Speaker 1>uni leftism to sensible center, why were they not able

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<v Speaker 1>to go with the grown ups.

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<v Speaker 3>It's often said that since he's been PM that he

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<v Speaker 3>is trying to find a more consensual position and more

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<v Speaker 3>centrist position. I should say that appeals to a broad

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<v Speaker 3>Australian electorate and not be too politically left or so on.

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<v Speaker 3>But I suppose when it comes to issues like Israel

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<v Speaker 3>and other things too, you do wonder whether the old

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<v Speaker 3>activism is just below the surface.

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<v Speaker 5>My take on it is they don't hate Israel. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>they like Israel. I don't know why Anthony Albanezi hasn't

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<v Speaker 5>just gone to Israel. That really amuses me. I'm still

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<v Speaker 5>confused as to why Penny One went to Israel and

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<v Speaker 5>didn't go to the southern villages. That just makes no

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<v Speaker 5>sense to me. I don't believe that these people despise

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<v Speaker 5>or dislike Israel, and they definitely don't feel that way

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<v Speaker 5>about Jeus.

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<v Speaker 4>I think they like Jews.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't think there's any reason for them not to.

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<v Speaker 5>I just think they're political animals and they want to

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<v Speaker 5>win elections, and I think that's what this is about.

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<v Speaker 5>At the end of the day.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the saddest things that's unfolded in the past

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<v Speaker 1>couple of days is seeing people being targeted for either

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<v Speaker 1>being Jewish or for helping Jews. Mister Ahmed, the hero

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<v Speaker 1>to back and as who crash tackled the shooter, has

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<v Speaker 1>been criticized by people in his own Muslim community for

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<v Speaker 1>helping Jews. Jewish businesses a smoke salmon bagel shop in Bondi,

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<v Speaker 1>Various bakeries have been publicly targeted with one star reviews

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<v Speaker 1>or zero star reviews just because they are Jewish. And

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<v Speaker 1>you can see that there is a targeted campaigning going on.

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<v Speaker 1>You told me earlier today about businesses you know who

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<v Speaker 1>you feel are retreating from public Jewishness. Is that a

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<v Speaker 1>new development because of the violence, or is it exhaustion

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<v Speaker 1>from seeing no action being taken and resulting in this.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't think we can discount the exhaustion, that's certainly true.

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<v Speaker 5>But what I can tell you is that after October seven,

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<v Speaker 5>and I'm talking about in the months after October seven,

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<v Speaker 5>Jewish business has experienced a wave. For some it would

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<v Speaker 5>have been a trickle one. For others it would have

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<v Speaker 5>been a wave, but they would have received a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of hate either of their eyes, you know, people spitting

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<v Speaker 5>in front of their shop, or it would have happened

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<v Speaker 5>online in the ways that you described. And I think

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<v Speaker 5>the difference now is that whereas then the worst that

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<v Speaker 5>could happen is words can never hurt me. It's you know,

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<v Speaker 5>unlike sticks and stones. After an incident like we had

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<v Speaker 5>to over the weekend, we know that this is much

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<v Speaker 5>more real than any.

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<v Speaker 2>Of us have dreamed.

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<v Speaker 5>And so I think that's why people having second thoughts

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<v Speaker 5>about how they want to express their identity publicly. I

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<v Speaker 5>think that's one of the saddest parts about all this.

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<v Speaker 1>The Prime Ministers now appointed David Gonski, who is proudly Jewish.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a very senior Australian businessman. He's been Chancellor of

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<v Speaker 1>the University of New South Wales for twenty years to

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<v Speaker 1>lead a review and a forward looking report recommending how

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<v Speaker 1>universities should handle antisemitism in the future.

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<v Speaker 2>God, there's a lot to do in universities, isn't there.

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<v Speaker 4>Nick, Yeah, there is. I know we've all spoken a

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<v Speaker 4>lot about it.

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose on the Gonski appointment, from what I've read

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<v Speaker 3>and can see, is that he probably hasn't been at

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<v Speaker 3>the spearhead of university leaders speaking very openly and vocally

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<v Speaker 3>about this. Two weeks ago, Jennifer Westercott at Western Sydney

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<v Speaker 3>University spoke out very very strongly about these things and

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<v Speaker 3>actually was I think probably the only university leader that

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<v Speaker 3>spoke in great detail about how students were being sanctioned

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<v Speaker 3>and they were taking discipline reactions.

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<v Speaker 4>So that's kind of my take.

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<v Speaker 1>How does either Anthony Alberanezi or Josh Freedenberg persuade Australians

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<v Speaker 1>that they're going to have to accept some limitations on

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<v Speaker 1>free speech? For example, are we going to be allowed

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<v Speaker 1>to chant globalize the interfata anymore? The UK has now

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<v Speaker 1>banned that phrase and said that people will be arrested.

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<v Speaker 5>And by the way, who else chances that phrase the

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<v Speaker 5>Union movement Unions for Palestine will hold up science saying

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<v Speaker 5>quite globalized, the anti fighter, but Unions for antifarter that's awkward.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we've already accepted the banning of Nazi symbols of

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<v Speaker 1>the Heil Hitler gesture. Yeah, so now it's about persuasion

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<v Speaker 1>for Albanize, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 4>It is?

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<v Speaker 3>But I think this problem exists right across the spectrum.

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<v Speaker 3>I think there's also a massive reckoning here on the right.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a massive reckoning among those that might identify themselves

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<v Speaker 3>as say classical liberals or of a kind of right

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<v Speaker 3>wing philosophy of that kind. And you know, I broadly

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<v Speaker 3>associate myself with that, And I think that means that

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<v Speaker 3>you have a very high bar for free speech, and

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<v Speaker 3>that means you have people like David Irving allowed to

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<v Speaker 3>come into Australia, you know, probably the world's most infamous

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<v Speaker 3>Holocaust denio.

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<v Speaker 1>Who has been banned over the past forty years from

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<v Speaker 1>entering this country.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and then also we had Candae Owens that recently

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<v Speaker 3>got knocked back to some extent. The old classical liberal

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<v Speaker 3>line essentially goes from the assumption of these people are

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<v Speaker 3>provably wrong on their substantive points, their falsifiers of history,

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<v Speaker 3>and what they are spouting is perversion. And I think

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<v Speaker 3>in the past that position has kind of been okay

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<v Speaker 3>because social media didn't really exist in the same way,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think a lot of people could assume a consensus,

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<v Speaker 3>mainstream opinion out there that would know these people are wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>Now I do not think that exists, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>coming here with answers to that, but I think this

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<v Speaker 3>is part of the problem, is that everything is now

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<v Speaker 3>so shattered.

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<v Speaker 4>How do we stop what happened on Sunday?

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<v Speaker 3>People are going to have to change, you know, maybe

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<v Speaker 3>that some pretty fundamental things about what they believe.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up more of my conversation with Nick Jensen and

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<v Speaker 1>Johnnie Bishann't.

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<v Speaker 5>Can I ask you, Claire, you know one thing I'm seeing,

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<v Speaker 5>and I know I'm echoing the views of a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of people, is that we're seeing more conviction out of

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<v Speaker 5>Chris Mins than we are out of the PM. And

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<v Speaker 5>there are certainly some people out there who would be

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<v Speaker 5>thinking to themselves, why isn't that guy our prime minister?

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<v Speaker 4>This just for the week?

0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.560
<v Speaker 5>What is it about men's that makes him different from

0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.080
<v Speaker 5>Albanesi in terms of how he feels about this and

0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.200
<v Speaker 5>why is he more believable and credible.

0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.080
<v Speaker 2>He's phenomenally articulate. Mins.

0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.120
<v Speaker 1>He's in the labor right as opposed to the labor left,

0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.320
<v Speaker 1>so he doesn't have a position to defend in terms

0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.520
<v Speaker 1>of Palestine. Josh Frodenberg was critical of Chris Mins though

0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 1>that was a moment for Mens. Frodenberg said, well, Premier,

0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 1>the marches over the harbor Ridge happened in you state.

0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he did try and stop him.

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Yes, but as Fredenberg said, he did try and stop it.

0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.200
<v Speaker 1>The police went to the Supreme Court and got rejected.

0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.959
<v Speaker 1>Frog said, will change the law. What have you thought

0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.880
<v Speaker 1>as everyone says, wow, Christmas is amazing this week.

0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 4>Well, he just seems to.

0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.920
<v Speaker 3>As we were talking before about the kind of emotional

0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 3>register or trying to trying to capture the mood of

0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.000
<v Speaker 3>the public, he seems to do that in the way

0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.959
<v Speaker 3>Albanezi just can't. And he speaks very fluently, and also

0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.920
<v Speaker 3>before this crisis though whenever there were questions about anti

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.440
<v Speaker 3>Semitism and even other issues, he doesn't seem tightly managed.

0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:40.000
<v Speaker 3>He seems like he's someone who's prepared to respond on instinct,

0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.160
<v Speaker 3>and that serves him very very well.

0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.040
<v Speaker 2>He never talks about the rules based global order, does he, or.

0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 4>Programmatic specificity or anything like that. But contrast that to Elbow.

0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.000
<v Speaker 3>I mean the thing with Elbow to some extent is

0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.800
<v Speaker 3>that he can reach that emotional register. Take, for instance,

0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 3>when the Pope died, it was very clear that he

0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:02.120
<v Speaker 3>was deeply moved by that.

0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 1>He was very articulate too about the social media ban

0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.560
<v Speaker 1>for under sixteens. He spoke about the grieving families who'd

0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.600
<v Speaker 1>come to see him and begged him to take action,

0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.439
<v Speaker 1>and he was doing it. You don't often get two

0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.480
<v Speaker 1>opportunities in public life, Yanni. Do you think we will

0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 1>see him visit Israel in twenty twenty six.

0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:20.720
<v Speaker 5>I think it would be prudent if he did. I

0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.040
<v Speaker 5>don't think any harm would come if he didn't. I've

0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 5>always wondered, again Penny Wong, our foreign minister not going

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.440
<v Speaker 5>to the southern villages in Israel. I don't understand what

0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.200
<v Speaker 5>political capital was gained or held by doing that. I

0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.120
<v Speaker 5>saw only political capital being burned. I saw nothing good

0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 5>having come out of that. And I feel the same

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.720
<v Speaker 5>way about Anthony Albanezi. What is lost by visiting Israel.

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.440
<v Speaker 5>What is betrayed by visiting Israel? But what is given

0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 5>up by not going? Well everything, No one believes that

0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 5>you truly identify and connect with this issue if you

0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:54.760
<v Speaker 5>can't go and shake hands with Bibi Netanyahu and visit

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 5>the Southern the Southern village.

0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.440
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I see yourself. I know that that's important.

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.800
<v Speaker 3>But I would really like to see whether he might

0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.080
<v Speaker 3>go down to the Great Synagogue. I'd really like to

0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.600
<v Speaker 3>see what would happen here if he did that. Now,

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:09.920
<v Speaker 3>if he did that, now he went to.

0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.400
<v Speaker 2>An interfaith service at the Catholic estrue.

0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 4>He did he did? Now?

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 3>Actually, I think yesterday was kind of a big day,

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.160
<v Speaker 3>I reckon in the history of this country.

0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:19.200
<v Speaker 4>Had a lot happened.

0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:23.480
<v Speaker 3>You know, Friedenberg's down there delivering this huge speech that

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.200
<v Speaker 3>seems to be a landmark. We had this extraordinary moment

0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 3>on the steps of Saint Mary's at this interfaith service

0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.320
<v Speaker 3>that you referred to, where the archbishop is chiding the

0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 3>Prime minister. I mean it's huge. It's like Daniel Mannix

0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.640
<v Speaker 3>around the time of the referenda for World War One,

0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:47.080
<v Speaker 3>criticizing our Billy Hughes say, it's a pretty extraordinary thing.

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Nick.

0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.160
<v Speaker 5>In many years from now, we're going to be looking

0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.280
<v Speaker 5>back on these events. You'll be recounting them to maybe

0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.640
<v Speaker 5>your grandkids. Even what is the most striking memory of

0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:02.760
<v Speaker 5>Sunday that you're going to be recounting to them.

0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.280
<v Speaker 3>One image that I won't forget is of one of

0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 3>the gunmens seeming to water away are passers by as

0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.000
<v Speaker 3>he was shooting into the crowd of Jews celebrating Haneker,

0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 3>as if to say, I'm not interested in killing you,

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm only interested in killing Jews.

0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 1>That's the moment that shows that this was connected to

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.000
<v Speaker 1>anti Semitism, right that.

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, can be no other can be no other response

0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:30.760
<v Speaker 4>to that.

0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.840
<v Speaker 1>I suppose I'll never forget people sprinting in terror from

0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:36.400
<v Speaker 1>the sand at Bondai Beach.

0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.000
<v Speaker 2>We've seen shark alarms before.

0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.480
<v Speaker 1>We usually think the peril is in the water and

0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.360
<v Speaker 1>we've all got the jaws them in our head when

0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.480
<v Speaker 1>we go to the beach. We've seen people run out

0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 1>of the water in fear. I've never seen people run

0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.920
<v Speaker 1>from the sand in fear at this place, which is

0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, so deer all of our hearts as Australians.

0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:01.080
<v Speaker 1>It's holidays, it's summer, it's Christmas and you know, Australians

0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.240
<v Speaker 1>were terrified en mass for really one of the first

0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:05.160
<v Speaker 1>times I've ever seen.

0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.200
<v Speaker 5>I think I'll remember Ruven Morrison, one of the older

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.800
<v Speaker 5>gentlemen who didn't know he was being filmed and confronted

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.280
<v Speaker 5>one of the gunmen with a brick and he threw

0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.159
<v Speaker 5>it at one of the shooters. He was one of

0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.080
<v Speaker 5>the fatalities. He was one of the people who was murdered.

0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.480
<v Speaker 5>And I'm just awestruck by the bravery of him, and

0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 5>obviously the bravery of all the other people involved, but

0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:33.680
<v Speaker 5>particularly a very elderly gentleman who put himself directly in

0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:35.840
<v Speaker 5>harm's way, may have even known that he would have

0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.400
<v Speaker 5>died doing what he was doing and throwing a brick

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.159
<v Speaker 5>at a gunman, knowing that it's not going to be

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:42.719
<v Speaker 5>a great consequence, but trying anyway.

0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.680
<v Speaker 4>I just think it's outstanding. Well, Thanks Johnny, Thanks Claire.

0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:47.720
<v Speaker 2>Thanks me.

0:17:48.000 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Nicholas Jensen is the Australians Opinion editor and Johnny

0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 1>Bashan is a senior journalist. You can read all the

0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.040
<v Speaker 1>latest on this developing story right now at the Australian

0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:08.280
<v Speaker 1>dot com dot Au