1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,900 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed business interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,260 --> 00:00:10,110 Sean Aylmer: There are a lot of pretty alarming headlines about the 3 00:00:10,110 --> 00:00:13,860 Sean Aylmer: growth of AI, the staggering speed at which the technology 4 00:00:13,860 --> 00:00:17,069 Sean Aylmer: is leaping ahead, the risk of something going wrong, even 5 00:00:17,070 --> 00:00:20,400 Sean Aylmer: just the IP issues raised when original content is used 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,420 Sean Aylmer: to train tools like ChatGPT. But what about the benefits? 7 00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:26,790 Sean Aylmer: I wanted to take a look at what everyday consumers 8 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:29,550 Sean Aylmer: think about this technology and how it might improve our 9 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:32,370 Sean Aylmer: lives, and of course, what it all means for business. 10 00:00:32,820 --> 00:00:37,229 Sean Aylmer: Frank Windoloski is the executive vice president, Insights & Data APAC 11 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:39,600 Sean Aylmer: at Capgemini. Frank, welcome to Fear & Greed. 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,479 Frank Windoloski: Thank you very much, Sean. It's a pleasure to be here. 13 00:00:43,470 --> 00:00:46,979 Sean Aylmer: Capgemini has done a big survey on this. 10,000 people across 14 00:00:47,190 --> 00:00:49,979 Sean Aylmer: 13 countries. What were you looking for when you went 15 00:00:49,979 --> 00:00:50,970 Sean Aylmer: into that exercise? 16 00:00:52,529 --> 00:00:55,860 Frank Windoloski: From our perspective, number one is we know that consumer 17 00:00:55,860 --> 00:00:59,880 Frank Windoloski: interest in technology and consumer uptake in technology tends to 18 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,328 Frank Windoloski: drive business use of technology. We've seen that over the years. 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,309 Frank Windoloski: For us, such a fast moving, hot topic around generative AI, 20 00:01:08,309 --> 00:01:10,649 Frank Windoloski: we wanted to get a feel for where consumers were 21 00:01:10,650 --> 00:01:13,919 Frank Windoloski: at and what they were thinking about the technology as 22 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,380 Frank Windoloski: sort of our first position of the market survey. 23 00:01:17,459 --> 00:01:20,249 Sean Aylmer: Okay. What came out of it? What's the verdict? What 24 00:01:20,250 --> 00:01:22,679 Sean Aylmer: do consumers think about AI? 25 00:01:22,679 --> 00:01:26,910 Frank Windoloski: Well, the headline is an amazing number, have actually not 26 00:01:26,910 --> 00:01:29,969 Frank Windoloski: only been aware, but have used the different types of 27 00:01:29,969 --> 00:01:34,770 Frank Windoloski: generative AI technology. The uptake is just absolutely dramatic considering 28 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,890 Frank Windoloski: it's less than six months old in the sense of 29 00:01:37,890 --> 00:01:41,610 Frank Windoloski: really hitting the market with the buzz around ChatGPT. But 30 00:01:41,670 --> 00:01:46,049 Frank Windoloski: really fascinating is the actual use, the number of folks 31 00:01:46,049 --> 00:01:49,080 Frank Windoloski: that are actually using across all age groups, that are 32 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,290 Frank Windoloski: actually using it for different types of purposes right now. 33 00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:56,190 Frank Windoloski: So really quite amazing how fast the uptake has been. 34 00:01:57,179 --> 00:02:00,120 Sean Aylmer: A couple of things in that, you talk about across age groups, 35 00:02:00,420 --> 00:02:04,739 Sean Aylmer: so it's not something that 18-year-olds are doing only? I mean, 36 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:08,160 Sean Aylmer: I had a look at the survey and certainly older Australians... Well, 37 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,590 Sean Aylmer: older is a very broad term here, so let's say 38 00:02:10,590 --> 00:02:13,410 Sean Aylmer: anything over 50 or thereabouts, they're using it as well. 39 00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:16,740 Frank Windoloski: That's correct. And in fact, while we saw some slight 40 00:02:16,740 --> 00:02:21,298 Frank Windoloski: variations in the age groups, we actually saw that what 41 00:02:21,299 --> 00:02:25,320 Frank Windoloski: we would classify as baby boomers have actually had more 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,649 Frank Windoloski: uptake than others. It's almost kind of the reverse to 43 00:02:28,650 --> 00:02:31,230 Frank Windoloski: sort of the going in assumption that younger people would 44 00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:34,440 Frank Windoloski: be using it more. But with that said, the variations 45 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,219 Frank Windoloski: across the age groups, whether we look at baby boomers 46 00:02:38,219 --> 00:02:41,549 Frank Windoloski: or Gen Xs or millennials or Gen Zs, the truth 47 00:02:41,549 --> 00:02:44,669 Frank Windoloski: is the variations weren't huge, but the baby boomers did 48 00:02:44,669 --> 00:02:46,860 Frank Windoloski: come out as the ones who have taken it up 49 00:02:46,860 --> 00:02:47,399 Frank Windoloski: the most. 50 00:02:48,300 --> 00:02:51,330 Sean Aylmer: Does it surprise you how much trust there is for 51 00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:54,389 Sean Aylmer: AI given all the media that we hear about? 52 00:02:54,809 --> 00:02:58,199 Frank Windoloski: Yeah, I must say this was probably the most surprising 53 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:01,080 Frank Windoloski: thing to me, and maybe I suppose working in the 54 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,430 Frank Windoloski: industry, I immediately go to a position of balance, of 55 00:03:06,060 --> 00:03:11,309 Frank Windoloski: risk versus reward. But consumers may be true to what 56 00:03:11,309 --> 00:03:14,459 Frank Windoloski: we've seen in the past is they rush into it 57 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:17,969 Frank Windoloski: with a benefit as the exciting part and they forget 58 00:03:17,969 --> 00:03:20,130 Frank Windoloski: about the risk. Now, while we see in the report 59 00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:24,779 Frank Windoloski: some elements where they're mindful of risks, the excitement around 60 00:03:24,780 --> 00:03:28,530 Frank Windoloski: the benefits does seem, in my view, to be the 61 00:03:28,530 --> 00:03:31,290 Frank Windoloski: primary focus right now. I think we all have a 62 00:03:31,290 --> 00:03:35,760 Frank Windoloski: responsibility to help educate and help upskill and make more 63 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,700 Frank Windoloski: awareness about the risks that are associated, because I do 64 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:42,060 Frank Windoloski: think balance is going to be the most important aspect 65 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,880 Frank Windoloski: of making this work for the future. 66 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:46,979 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Frank. We'll be back in a minute. 67 00:03:52,859 --> 00:03:56,910 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Frank Windoloski, Executive Vice President, Insights & Data 68 00:03:56,910 --> 00:04:01,080 Sean Aylmer: APAC at Capgemini. Now, some of the information out of 69 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:06,780 Sean Aylmer: the survey, sort of the things that people trusted AI on, 70 00:04:07,679 --> 00:04:09,750 Sean Aylmer: the medical opinions was a good one. Now as I'm 71 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:14,609 Sean Aylmer: saying this, I'm thinking, well, everyone Google's anyway, how they are, AI 72 00:04:14,670 --> 00:04:17,100 Sean Aylmer: is kind of the next step. Maybe it is a 73 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:20,428 Sean Aylmer: good use of medical opinions, but that I suppose it 74 00:04:20,428 --> 00:04:25,049 Sean Aylmer: surprised me somewhat that people are using AI and getting 75 00:04:25,049 --> 00:04:26,820 Sean Aylmer: medical opinions and kind of believing it. 76 00:04:27,750 --> 00:04:30,779 Frank Windoloski: Yeah, and I would say there's sort of two sides 77 00:04:30,779 --> 00:04:35,070 Frank Windoloski: to this coin. On one hand, folks would assume just 78 00:04:35,070 --> 00:04:39,419 Frank Windoloski: like you have that medical information is the information we 79 00:04:39,420 --> 00:04:43,678 Frank Windoloski: protect most dearly. We would be less trusting of technology 80 00:04:43,678 --> 00:04:45,750 Frank Windoloski: on it. But then on the other hand, the other 81 00:04:45,750 --> 00:04:49,680 Frank Windoloski: side of the coin is that it's industries that have 82 00:04:49,710 --> 00:04:54,510 Frank Windoloski: an element of difficulty or frustration in the customer experience, 83 00:04:54,510 --> 00:04:57,359 Frank Windoloski: the consumer experience that are actually the ones most ripe 84 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,650 Frank Windoloski: for disruption. And we all know, especially in an Australian context, 85 00:05:01,650 --> 00:05:05,879 Frank Windoloski: the difficulty in getting access to doctors in rural areas, 86 00:05:06,210 --> 00:05:09,570 Frank Windoloski: the ability to sort of get fast access to medical 87 00:05:09,570 --> 00:05:13,830 Frank Windoloski: information can be challenged. And when consumers are struggling with this, 88 00:05:13,830 --> 00:05:19,349 Frank Windoloski: they'll naturally go to technology. And admittedly, technology can come 89 00:05:19,349 --> 00:05:22,049 Frank Windoloski: across as more consistent in its opinion. It can sort 90 00:05:22,049 --> 00:05:25,919 Frank Windoloski: of feel more data driven. I think there is a 91 00:05:25,950 --> 00:05:29,279 Frank Windoloski: double side to this perspective. People will naturally want to 92 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,639 Frank Windoloski: protect their privacy, but they'll naturally also want to get 93 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:36,959 Frank Windoloski: faster information and information they feel comes from a data-driven mindset. 94 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:40,919 Frank Windoloski: With that said, I do think it's a sign that 95 00:05:41,639 --> 00:05:44,970 Frank Windoloski: many industries, and I think medical industry will be one 96 00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:49,140 Frank Windoloski: of them, will have an element of disruption from this technology. 97 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:51,660 Frank Windoloski: They'll have to grapple with how do we deal with 98 00:05:51,660 --> 00:05:54,960 Frank Windoloski: this type of new ability? How do we incorporate it 99 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,330 Frank Windoloski: in the ways of working? And importantly, back to the 100 00:05:57,330 --> 00:05:59,969 Frank Windoloski: issue of balance, how do we actually do it in 101 00:05:59,969 --> 00:06:03,090 Frank Windoloski: a way that is ethical, that is responsible, that is trustworthy? 102 00:06:03,540 --> 00:06:08,578 Frank Windoloski: And I think we'll have to recognise that businesses in 103 00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:13,380 Frank Windoloski: governments will have a responsibility to take a leadership position 104 00:06:13,380 --> 00:06:17,760 Frank Windoloski: in trust and in ensuring that there isn't bias, ensuring 105 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,029 Frank Windoloski: there isn't issues in regards to ethics that are showing 106 00:06:21,029 --> 00:06:25,710 Frank Windoloski: up because consumers will naturally rush into it. They will 107 00:06:25,710 --> 00:06:29,308 Frank Windoloski: have a certain element where they'll be cautious, but I 108 00:06:29,309 --> 00:06:35,039 Frank Windoloski: think consumers will be more optimistic. And as enterprises, as governments, 109 00:06:35,129 --> 00:06:37,290 Frank Windoloski: I think we all will have a bigger responsibility to 110 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:42,510 Frank Windoloski: educate people and to design from the start ethical systems 111 00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:43,830 Frank Windoloski: and responsible systems. 112 00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:47,789 Sean Aylmer: If I'm a business, how do I do that? I 113 00:06:47,790 --> 00:06:51,029 Sean Aylmer: get what you're saying, but how should I be thinking 114 00:06:51,029 --> 00:06:57,180 Sean Aylmer: about it? Because AI is potentially scraping my data among 115 00:06:57,180 --> 00:07:00,690 Sean Aylmer: with many much other data to come up with answers. 116 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:01,620 Sean Aylmer: What do I do? 117 00:07:02,940 --> 00:07:06,719 Frank Windoloski: I would say there's two things that I'm feeling every 118 00:07:06,719 --> 00:07:10,619 Frank Windoloski: organisation needs to be doing right now. One of those 119 00:07:10,619 --> 00:07:15,780 Frank Windoloski: is investing in talent development. We need to upskill and 120 00:07:15,780 --> 00:07:21,570 Frank Windoloski: cross-skill a large number of people to have a stronger knowledge base, 121 00:07:21,570 --> 00:07:25,980 Frank Windoloski: a stronger ability to tackle these issues. We need lots 122 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:30,300 Frank Windoloski: more upskilling and cross-skilling to ensure that we have people 123 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:33,930 Frank Windoloski: who are aware of all the issues at play. Number 124 00:07:33,930 --> 00:07:38,610 Frank Windoloski: two is I would encourage everyone to start. Let's not 125 00:07:38,610 --> 00:07:42,030 Frank Windoloski: spend three months, six months, nine months analysing the problem 126 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,820 Frank Windoloski: because experimentation becomes critical in learning, and this technology is 127 00:07:47,820 --> 00:07:51,510 Frank Windoloski: evolving very rapidly. Trying to get a handle on all 128 00:07:51,510 --> 00:07:55,710 Frank Windoloski: of the rights and wrongs immediately become problematic. And I 129 00:07:55,710 --> 00:08:01,080 Frank Windoloski: think experimenting with technology straight away allows organisations to do 130 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,580 Frank Windoloski: just that, accelerate the learning aspect, understanding particularly how it 131 00:08:05,580 --> 00:08:11,430 Frank Windoloski: impacts their organisation, their customers, their employees, because these aren't 132 00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:16,200 Frank Windoloski: going to be broad-based solutions that the same answer applies 133 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,440 Frank Windoloski: within every industry and every organisation. There are going to 134 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,609 Frank Windoloski: need to be very tailored aspects within each entity. My 135 00:08:23,850 --> 00:08:26,670 Frank Windoloski: encouragement is start because we all have to be on 136 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:30,630 Frank Windoloski: a journey to learn and separately, really invest heavily in 137 00:08:30,630 --> 00:08:34,078 Frank Windoloski: talent and skills because we need more knowledge about how 138 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,370 Frank Windoloski: this new technology works. 139 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:38,910 Sean Aylmer: Now I have a side hustle, Frank. I have a 140 00:08:38,910 --> 00:08:42,660 Sean Aylmer: little content agency. And when you run a content agency 141 00:08:42,690 --> 00:08:45,300 Sean Aylmer: and something like AI comes, you have a choice. You 142 00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:48,030 Sean Aylmer: can either think, "Uh-oh, we're in trouble," or you can 143 00:08:48,030 --> 00:08:51,900 Sean Aylmer: embrace it. And that's particularly my business partner, Simon Anderson 144 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:55,920 Sean Aylmer: has embraced it. It is quite remarkable how much easier 145 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,129 Sean Aylmer: our life has become because we have embraced it. It's 146 00:08:59,129 --> 00:09:00,840 Sean Aylmer: not to say, we still have to do the writing 147 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,480 Sean Aylmer: and all that sort of stuff, but in terms of ideas, 148 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,650 Sean Aylmer: in terms of thought starters, in terms of the parameters 149 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:12,419 Sean Aylmer: that we work within, AI is incredibly useful. The point 150 00:09:12,420 --> 00:09:15,238 Sean Aylmer: of telling that story is that I suppose I was 151 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,879 Sean Aylmer: scared of it, but because my business partner said, "Uh-huh, 152 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,490 Sean Aylmer: this is going to help us," if you take that approach, 153 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:21,750 Sean Aylmer: it can be very beneficial. 154 00:09:22,410 --> 00:09:26,940 Frank Windoloski: Yeah. And I'm completely with you on this topic. I'm 155 00:09:26,940 --> 00:09:30,749 Frank Windoloski: an optimistic by nature and I tend to lean into 156 00:09:30,750 --> 00:09:34,259 Frank Windoloski: these things and I believe in the human spirit, and 157 00:09:34,260 --> 00:09:38,370 Frank Windoloski: I actually think you're spot on. These things will make 158 00:09:38,370 --> 00:09:42,240 Frank Windoloski: our lives better. They will allow us to be more creative. 159 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,949 Frank Windoloski: They will allow us to invent new products. They will 160 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:50,309 Frank Windoloski: allow us to invent new services that will make citizens 161 00:09:50,309 --> 00:09:55,110 Frank Windoloski: lives more beneficial throughout the world, throughout different aspects of society. 162 00:09:55,470 --> 00:09:58,170 Frank Windoloski: I think this is going to be a tool that 163 00:09:58,170 --> 00:10:02,429 Frank Windoloski: makes us much more powerful as a society, as humans. 164 00:10:02,790 --> 00:10:06,570 Frank Windoloski: And I sort of often think the calculator was invented 165 00:10:06,570 --> 00:10:10,020 Frank Windoloski: many years ago and gave a huge advantage to everyone 166 00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:14,250 Frank Windoloski: who was working with numbers and eventually led into very 167 00:10:14,250 --> 00:10:18,630 Frank Windoloski: logical parts of organisations around processes and procedures that have 168 00:10:18,630 --> 00:10:22,828 Frank Windoloski: been benefited tremendously with those types of technologies based on 169 00:10:23,070 --> 00:10:25,590 Frank Windoloski: if-then statements, so to speak. And I think now we 170 00:10:25,590 --> 00:10:28,649 Frank Windoloski: have a technology that helps the creative side of the world, 171 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:31,800 Frank Windoloski: and I think it's going to be that important. It's 172 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,800 Frank Windoloski: going to really lift up the creative aspects of what 173 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,670 Frank Windoloski: we do as people and make us so much better 174 00:10:38,670 --> 00:10:40,319 Frank Windoloski: and stronger in those areas. 175 00:10:41,940 --> 00:10:47,640 Sean Aylmer: Where in terms of great progresses in size, where's AI rate? 176 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,458 Frank Windoloski: I often sort of feel that AI is going to 177 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:57,899 Frank Windoloski: really cause the next disruption in our industry. It's going 178 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:01,710 Frank Windoloski: to really allow us to sort of go forward, not 179 00:11:01,710 --> 00:11:07,080 Frank Windoloski: just with a digital business, but with an intelligent digital business. 180 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,380 Frank Windoloski: It's going to allow us effectively an internet, so to speak, 181 00:11:10,380 --> 00:11:14,578 Frank Windoloski: that has cognitive abilities throughout. And I think that will 182 00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:20,309 Frank Windoloski: actually long-term be very disruptive and very beneficial for many enterprises, 183 00:11:20,309 --> 00:11:25,620 Frank Windoloski: many governments and back to the point, benefit us as people, 184 00:11:25,620 --> 00:11:29,040 Frank Windoloski: us as society, and from a government's lens in terms 185 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,400 Frank Windoloski: of a citizenship. I think it will be really impactful. 186 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,270 Frank Windoloski: It's at that sort of level that will cause major 187 00:11:36,270 --> 00:11:39,449 Frank Windoloski: disruption and I think it will be disruption for good. 188 00:11:40,049 --> 00:11:42,118 Frank Windoloski: For my mindset, this is where it is. It's a 189 00:11:42,179 --> 00:11:45,960 Frank Windoloski: major disruptive force and I'm looking forward to the excitement 190 00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:49,290 Frank Windoloski: of things we can do with it. But I am 191 00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:53,460 Frank Windoloski: going in with that balanced point of view which says, look, 192 00:11:53,460 --> 00:11:55,828 Frank Windoloski: we've got to be careful. We've got to start with 193 00:11:55,830 --> 00:11:58,589 Frank Windoloski: an ethical foundation. We have to start with a responsible 194 00:11:58,590 --> 00:12:01,559 Frank Windoloski: point of view so that we are building it in 195 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,880 Frank Windoloski: the spirit of the future that we all believe in, 196 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,439 Frank Windoloski: in terms of a better society. 197 00:12:08,070 --> 00:12:10,080 Sean Aylmer: Frank, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 198 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,059 Frank Windoloski: Thank you very much, Sean. It's been a pleasure being 199 00:12:12,059 --> 00:12:12,390 Frank Windoloski: with you. 200 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:17,520 Sean Aylmer: That was Frank Windoloski, Executive Vice President, Insights & Data APAC at Capgemini. 201 00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:21,210 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear & Greed Business Interview. Join us every 202 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:23,970 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear & Greed, Australia's best 203 00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:26,760 Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.