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Speaker 1: So Joe now an accomplice for the murder of these

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Speaker 1: three police. Even though it's likely that he didn't kill

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Speaker 1: any of them, he was still an accomplice.

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Speaker 2: He was now a wanted man.

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Speaker 1: And after that point you had Ned Kelly, Dan Kelly,

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Speaker 1: Steve Hart and Joe Byrn as members of what is

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Speaker 1: known as the Kelly Gang.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jen Kelly from The Herald's Son and this is

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Speaker 3: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's

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Speaker 3: forgotten characters. When stories of the Kelly Gang are written,

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Speaker 3: it's always their charismatic leader who grabs the spotlight. But

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Speaker 3: Joe Burn lived his own very colorful life. Today we're

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Speaker 3: chatting to Georgina Feelen, author of a new book called

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Speaker 3: Joseph Byrne From Larikan to Outlaw. As the title suggests,

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Speaker 3: Joe Byurn started out as a young Larrikan before he

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Speaker 3: became one of Australia's most notorious bushrangers. Also a bush

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Speaker 3: poet who wrote stirring ballads about the Calligang's exploits. And

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Speaker 3: he was a ladies man known by the nickname Sweet Birdie.

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Speaker 3: As we'll hear today, Joe Byrn was also the strategist

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Speaker 3: of the Calligang, and also sent threatening letters to the

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Speaker 3: Victorian police and designed mock reward posters for the apprehension

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Speaker 3: of police members. Georgina joins us now with the story.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the podcast, Georgina, thank you. Now, there's been

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Speaker 3: an awful lot written about the Kelly Gang and Ned

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Speaker 3: Kelly over the decades, But I'm curious, is this the

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Speaker 3: first time that someone has taken such a detailed look

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Speaker 3: specifically at the life of Joe Byrn.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it is, so this is a first book that

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Speaker 1: focuses solely on his life.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Now, of all the Kelly Gang members, why did

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Speaker 3: you choose to write a book specifically about Joe Byrn?

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Speaker 1: Because his story had never been told in detail before.

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Speaker 1: He'd always been kind of just a side character in

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Speaker 1: other people's stories, and so I just felt that it

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Speaker 1: was time to bring him out of the shadow of

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Speaker 1: Ned Kelly.

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Speaker 3: And after all this time, one hundred and fifty years,

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Speaker 3: you've actually been able to dig up new historical information

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Speaker 3: to flesh out his story for the public record.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I have. So there's information about Joe's personal life,

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Speaker 1: about his health incidents that he was involved in, that

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Speaker 1: have not been previously written about.

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Speaker 3: Okay, now, and is it also true that Joe Byrne

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Speaker 3: is supposedly the one who designed the Kelly armor.

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Speaker 2: That's been a long held belief.

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Speaker 1: However, Joe, in his own words, was against the armor,

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Speaker 1: so I don't believe that it was his idea.

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Speaker 3: No, Okay, we'll hear more about that, of course later

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Speaker 3: in the story. Where does Joe Byrn's story begin?

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Speaker 1: Joe Byrne's story begins in the mining township of Sebastopol.

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Speaker 1: He was born in eighteen fifty six. He lost his

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Speaker 1: father when he was only thirteen, and he was forced

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Speaker 1: to become the man of the house. He was one

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Speaker 1: of seven children, and in order to support his family,

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Speaker 1: who were now fatherless, he worked a variety of jobs

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Speaker 1: to support and provide.

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Speaker 3: Now, one of the interesting things that I didn't know

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Speaker 3: about Joe Byurrn is that he actually spoke his second language.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us about that?

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Speaker 2: Ah?

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Speaker 1: Yes, so Sebastopol obviously, because it was a mining town.

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Speaker 1: Minus from all over the world had flocked to Sebastopol

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Speaker 1: to try their luck, and many of these miners were Chinese,

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Speaker 1: and Joe learned how he learned to converse in Cantonese

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Speaker 1: with them, and he learned many of their customs and

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Speaker 1: their habits as well.

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Speaker 3: And that was really unusual, wasn't it. I mean, there

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Speaker 3: weren't many people who were going to the effort at

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Speaker 3: that time to learn Cantonese. It was a time when

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Speaker 3: racism was pretty ripe, it was.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it speaks a lot for Joe's character that he

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Speaker 1: would go against that racism to actually show them their

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Speaker 1: respect of learning their language and you know, getting to

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Speaker 1: know them and befriending them. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, your book is called Joseph Berne from Larikan to Outlaw.

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Speaker 3: We've obviously heard plenty about the outlaw side over the years.

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Speaker 3: Tell us more about the Alarican side of him, especially

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Speaker 3: in his childhood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, Joe, even though he tried initially to work hard

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Speaker 1: and support his family, like many young men, he kind

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Speaker 1: of drifted away, and so he began with his mate

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Speaker 1: Aaron Sherrett. They would borrow horses, which means that they

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Speaker 1: would take them for joy rides and then put them

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Speaker 1: back in the owner's paddock or knocked up and exhausted.

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Speaker 1: But apart from this, if they came across a stray

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Speaker 1: philly or a calf. They would take it up to

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Speaker 1: a disused yard and they would put their own brand

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Speaker 1: on it. And one of the news one of the

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Speaker 1: newsmen at the time stated that Joe Byurn was better

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Speaker 1: known to the police than to the school master.

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Speaker 3: And when did he really start to get into too

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Speaker 3: serious trouble with the law? I mean, when did he

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Speaker 3: first go to jail for example?

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Speaker 1: Well, he first went to jail in June of eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy six, So up to that time the crimes that

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Speaker 1: he was committing were fairly minor. But I suppose him

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Speaker 1: he was kind of testing how far he could push things.

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Speaker 1: So in May of eighteen seventy six, he and Aaron

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Speaker 1: stole and butchered the local school cow.

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Speaker 2: And while they.

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Speaker 1: Were in the act of butchering it, a nosy neighbor

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Speaker 1: spotted them and went all the way into Beechworth to

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Speaker 1: report it, and the next day Aaron and Joe were

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Speaker 1: arrested and sentenced to six months hard labor in Beechworth jail.

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Speaker 3: It seems like such a harsh sentence for stealing and

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Speaker 3: butchering a cow, doesn't it six months hard labor?

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Speaker 1: It was definitely, however, keeping in mind that this was

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Speaker 1: not Joe's first brush with the law. Both him and

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Speaker 1: Aaron had been in trouble before, mainly for their love

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Speaker 1: of riding other people's horses. So the judge kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know that he wanted to make an example out

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 3: So how old was Joe when he went to jail?

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Speaker 2: Joe was nineteen nineteen, Okay, so.

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Speaker 3: He's released from jail. Has he met Ned Kelly yet?

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Speaker 2: No, he hasn't.

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Speaker 3: And how did they meet?

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Speaker 1: So in eighteen seventy seven, Joe was in the beach

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Speaker 1: Reord lockup waiting for his trial for grievously wounding a

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Speaker 1: Chinese man.

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Speaker 3: Oh, how did that happen? What was the tell us

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Speaker 3: the details of that?

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Speaker 1: So there was a dam next to where the Burn

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Speaker 1: family lived. This was a dam that was open to use. However,

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Speaker 1: there was one Chinese man named On who would claim

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Speaker 1: that it was for his own use. And one hot

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Speaker 1: summer day, Joe Byrne, along with Aaron Sherritt, decided that

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Speaker 1: they wanted to go for a swim, and On came down.

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Speaker 2: To fetch some water for his vegetable garden, and he

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Speaker 2: was not happy.

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Speaker 1: When he saw Aaron and Joe bathing in the dam,

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Speaker 1: so he told them to get out. Words were kind

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Speaker 1: of exchanged, heated words. Joe and Aaron decided, as two

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Speaker 1: young Americans, that they would kind of pester these a

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Speaker 1: little bit. And On and his mates took up bamboos

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Speaker 1: and they chased, they chased Aaron and Joe, and Aaron

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Speaker 1: picked up a stone to kind of defend himself, and

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Speaker 1: he threw the rock and it kind of smashed into

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Speaker 1: our n's temple, almost killing him. It was very serious,

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Speaker 1: but miraculously they were discharged. So when they were in

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Speaker 1: the lock up awaiting the trial, there was a young

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old boy named Daniel Kelly who was in

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Speaker 1: there for saddle stealing and he was the brother of

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Speaker 1: Ned Kelly.

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Speaker 3: So, just before we go on with what happened next,

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Speaker 3: I'm curious about what the difference is in the sentence,

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Speaker 3: given that Joe got six months for stealing and butchering

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Speaker 3: a cow, I'm curious to know what the eventual sentence

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Speaker 3: was for this terrible crime where he nearly killed this man.

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Speaker 1: Well, you see, he actually it was Aaron who threw

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Speaker 1: the stone, So Joe was I suppose he could have

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Speaker 1: been tried as an accomplice but in actual injury are

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Speaker 1: On he wasn't a part of it, so he was

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Speaker 1: chased in a completely different direction to Aaron, so he

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Speaker 1: didn't actually see any of what happened. But at the

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Speaker 1: time people were very angry that Aaron especially had been

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Speaker 1: let off because it was a serious crime. And On

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Speaker 1: had actually spent quite a bit of time in hospital

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Speaker 1: and he had to actually have a piece of bone

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Speaker 1: removed from his cheek because the injuries that he had

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Speaker 1: sustained were that bad.

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Speaker 3: Just awful. And so Joe Byrne has met Dan Kelly.

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Speaker 3: And is that how you suspects that Joe has ultimately

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Speaker 3: metten It.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so that's I suppose that's the first recorded time

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Speaker 1: that Joe byrn and a Kelly were noted as being

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Speaker 1: in the same place.

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Speaker 3: And then Joe has become pretty tight with both the

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Speaker 3: Kelly brothers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so in late eighteen seventy seven we next see Joe.

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Speaker 1: He's actually living at the Kelly house and he is

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Speaker 1: using an alias Billy King, and so, yeah, we have

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Speaker 1: no idea how he met Ned Kelly. All we know

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Speaker 1: is that they met some place, probably no doubt through

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Speaker 1: Dan and Joe is now living at the Kelly house,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, his life of crime escalates from there.

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Speaker 3: And Georgina, can you tell it? Take us forward now

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Speaker 3: to the events at Stringybuck Creek and especially Joe Burns

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Speaker 3: role that day.

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Speaker 2: Ah.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So Joe had been with the Kelly brothers at

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Speaker 1: their heart at Bullet Creek. He was helping them to

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Speaker 1: procure funds for a retrial for their mother Ellen. And

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Speaker 1: there was a warrant that was out for the arrest

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Speaker 1: of Ned Kelly for the wounding of Constable Fitzpatrick in

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Speaker 1: April eighteen seventy eight. Now Ned denied that he had

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Speaker 1: anything to do with it, that he had actually been

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Speaker 1: two hundred miles away. So there is a lot of

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Speaker 1: speculation about whether he did wound Constable Fitzpatrick or not.

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Speaker 2: No one really knows.

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Speaker 1: However, Joe, being loyal, he was with the Kelly brothers.

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Speaker 1: They were distilling whiskey and digging for gold because Ned

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Speaker 1: was under the belief that if he procured enough funds

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Speaker 1: he could get a retrial for his mother. So you

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Speaker 1: had two police parties who were looking for net. He

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Speaker 1: was aware of this, and they were because they were

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Speaker 1: so close to where Ned and Dan Joe and Dan's

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Speaker 1: mate Steve hartware Ned decided that in order to survive,

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Speaker 1: he wanted to bail up the police, take their horses,

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Speaker 1: their guns, and whatever food they had so he could

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Speaker 1: be kind of one step ahead of them. However, as

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Speaker 1: most people know, that's not how it eventuated, and three

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Speaker 1: policemen lost their lives.

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Speaker 3: And what happened afterwards, So.

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Speaker 1: Joe now an accomplice for the murder of these three police,

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Speaker 1: even though it's likely that he didn't kill any of them,

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Speaker 1: he was still an accomplice. He was now a wanted man.

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Speaker 1: And after that point you had Ned Kelly, Dan, Kelly,

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Speaker 1: Steve Hart, and Joe Byrne as members of what is

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Speaker 1: known as the Kelly Gang. So as wanted men, they

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Speaker 1: were on the run. It was an exhausting few weeks

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Speaker 1: of just trying to keep one step ahead of the police.

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Speaker 3: So was Joe Byrn able to go around in public

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Speaker 3: at that point or was he very much on the

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Speaker 3: run as well?

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Speaker 1: So he was very much on the run, but because

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Speaker 1: he was not identified, that gave him a little bit

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Speaker 1: more freedom to continue to get supplies, and he actually

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Speaker 1: was seen in several hotels, but there was still that

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Speaker 1: element that you know, he could be shot and captured.

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Speaker 1: But because he hadn't been officially identified, he had that

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Speaker 1: freedom to move around more than what Ned and Dan

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Speaker 1: Kelly had.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So Ned and Dan had been identified, but Joe

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Speaker 3: and Steve Hart had not. Yeah, that's right, Okay, So

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Speaker 3: those two were able to go and get supplies, and

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Speaker 3: they were also able to go and gather information. What

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Speaker 3: sort of information were they trying to gather?

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Speaker 1: So they would have been trying to gather information about

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Speaker 1: the police parties and where they were and just yeah,

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Speaker 1: just so they could keep one step ahead of the police.

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Speaker 3: And how long did the gang lie low for before

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Speaker 3: they risked committing crimes again?

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Speaker 1: So the events at stringer Back qreak occurred in October,

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Speaker 1: late October eighteen seventy eight, and they robbed the bank

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Speaker 1: at Euroa on the tenth of December, so.

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Speaker 2: Not long at all.

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Speaker 1: Ned and Joe, Joe being the strategist, knew that in

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Speaker 1: order for their continued survival, they needed money for themselves

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Speaker 1: to survive, but also to pay sympathizers and you know,

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Speaker 1: to kind of keep people on side. So even though

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Speaker 1: not a short time at all, but they had to

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Speaker 1: you know, strike and procure funds.

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Speaker 3: Now, Joe Burn's childhood friend, Aaron Sherrick comes back into

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Speaker 3: the story at this point in a big way, doesn't he.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So, after it was surmised or believed by the

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Speaker 1: police that Joe Burn was one of the four members

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Speaker 1: of the g the police had approached Aaron to give

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Speaker 1: information or you know, to give him up, and so

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Speaker 1: Aaron he agreed only if Joe's life could be spared. Now,

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Speaker 1: after that interview or meeting with Commissioner Standish, he went

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Speaker 1: back to Joe and he told him of what the

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Speaker 1: police had offered him and told him and the gang

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Speaker 1: realized that they could use this to their advantage because

256
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Speaker 1: they could have Aaron pretending to work with the police

257
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Speaker 1: and to kind of lead them off on wild goose chasers,

258
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Speaker 1: and the gang would be, you know, many miles away

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Speaker 1: somewhere else.

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Speaker 3: Now, there's some you mentioned before that Joe Burn was

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Speaker 3: the strategist of the gang. There's some good examples at

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Speaker 3: this point of how he did that. Can you tell

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Speaker 3: us more about that?

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Speaker 1: Yes, So, Joe he's been described as the brains of

265
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Speaker 1: the gang, so he would often be the person to

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Speaker 1: go over the plans with Ned and to make sure

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Speaker 1: that everything went as smoothly as possible. He also kept

268
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Speaker 1: a diary where he would write down their ideas and

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Speaker 1: where you know, he could plan every detail.

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Speaker 2: So as well as planning for the raids.

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Speaker 1: Joe was also a prolific letter writer and he wrote

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Speaker 1: many threatening letters to members of the Victoria Police who

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Speaker 1: he disliked. One notable person was Detective Michael Ward, who

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Speaker 1: had been the arresting officer on many occasions during Joe's youth,

275
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Speaker 1: and as well as threatening letters, he would also write

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Speaker 1: out mock reward posters. So wherever there was reward posters

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Speaker 1: placed up the gang, Joe would get one of his

278
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,720
Speaker 1: friends to place one of his own mock reward posters

279
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Speaker 1: for the you know, the apprehension and delivery up into

280
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,359
Speaker 1: the ranges of certain members of the police, and these

281
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,719
Speaker 1: he would place near or beside where an official reward

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00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,400
Speaker 1: poster was. As well as mock reward posters, Joe would

283
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 1: also draw caricatures and send those the police. These included

284
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Speaker 1: caricatures of the gang shooting the police, as well as

285
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 1: on one notable occasion, he sent Detective Word and illustration

286
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,159
Speaker 1: of a coffin, and he also included a piece of

287
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:41,919
Speaker 1: black crape.

288
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Speaker 3: And again it really shows that Larkin side to his personality,

289
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 3: doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Oh? It does.

291
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Speaker 1: And because Joe was such a lover of writing and

292
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Speaker 1: of words, this is kind of what set him apart

293
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Speaker 1: from people like net because Joe he was a little

294
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 1: bit more creative in the way that he thought. And

295
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 1: the fact that yeah, he was, you know, writing to

296
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Speaker 1: the police and sending in drawings. It's just yet it's

297
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 1: very unlike anyone else.

298
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Speaker 3: We'll be back soon to hear more about Joe Burns,

299
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 3: so stay with us. Now you've written about how he

300
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 3: wrote ballads of the gang's exploits. Do you do you

301
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 3: have copies of any of those? Have you got any

302
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,719
Speaker 3: of those lyrics that you could read to us?

303
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,960
Speaker 1: So one of Joe's well known ballads is the Ballad

304
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: of the Kelly Gang, which was sung to the tune

305
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 1: of the Bold Soldier Boy, which was a Civil War song.

306
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 2: Oh there's not a.

307
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,400
Speaker 1: Dodge worth knowing or showing that's going. But you'll learn

308
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 1: this isn't blowing from the Bold Kelly Gang. We have

309
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 1: mates wherever we go that somehow let us know the

310
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 1: approach of every foe to the Bold Kelly Gang. There's

311
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 1: not appeal of writing one bat ranger's heel or sighting,

312
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 1: but would rather be for hiding though. I'd like to

313
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: see us hang within their ranks. We rub their banks

314
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: and say no thanks for what we do. Oh, the

315
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 1: terror of the camp is the Bold Kelly Gang. Then

316
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: if you want to spree, come with me and you'll

317
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,640
Speaker 1: see how grand it is to be in the Bold

318
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 1: Kelly Gang.

319
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,040
Speaker 3: Okay? And did he send off these ballads to be

320
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 3: published in any of the newspapers for example?

321
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 2: He didn't do that.

322
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 1: However, he did want to have them published, but this

323
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 1: was never kind of eventuated. But they were because they

324
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 1: were so well known. If you're walking past a hotel

325
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 1: or a pub, you would often hear people singing Joe's ballads.

326
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,719
Speaker 3: So I wonder so that the words were just passed

327
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 3: on from person to person. They weren't published anywhere. No

328
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 3: people would sing them to each other, and that's how

329
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 3: they learned the words. That's fascinating.

330
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like many of the folk songs from that time.

331
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Speaker 3: Amazing.

332
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: Now.

333
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 3: One of the other interesting sides to Joe Burn's personality

334
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 3: is that he was a real ladies man. Can you

335
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 3: tell us about that side to him.

336
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,919
Speaker 1: Yes, So one of the more interesting facets of Joe's

337
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 1: personality was exactly right that he was a ladies man.

338
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,359
Speaker 1: Many of the bar maids that he flirted with would

339
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,880
Speaker 1: call him either sweet Birdie or Sugar, which they said

340
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 1: was because he was so sweet, and it was also

341
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: reported in the newspapers that he was the idol of

342
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,640
Speaker 1: the girls of the district.

343
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 3: I wonder if it was just the bar maids that

344
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,879
Speaker 3: were calling him sweet Birdie and sugar, because I'm just

345
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 3: imagining Ned Kelly and Dan Kelly calling him sweet Birdie

346
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 3: and Sugar. I love the idea, but I find it

347
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 3: hard to believe.

348
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure if they knew, they probably would have teased

349
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 1: him about it.

350
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he did have various girlfriends, didn't he.

351
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 2: Yes, he did so.

352
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: Being so sweet Joe had He had a girlfriend called

353
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: Maggie who lived in beach who worked in Beachworth, and

354
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 1: despite the price on his head and the danger, every

355
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: Saturday night, Joe would ride into Beechworth to spend time

356
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: with her. As well as this, he also had an

357
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 1: old sweetheart called Ellen Barron who lived near Chiltern, and

358
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 1: he would see her often as well, where she would

359
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: provide him with a home cooked meal and provisions and intelligence,

360
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 1: which is just yeah, it's pretty remarkable that despite the

361
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 1: danger that it brought, Joe was still going off to

362
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: see these women who meant so much to him.

363
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 3: Now, I'd love you to take us forward to February

364
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 3: eighteen seventy nine when the Kelli gang raided the New

365
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 3: South Wales River in a town of Jerildery. Because Joe

366
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 3: Byurn was a key player in those in stable events,

367
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 3: wasn't he.

368
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: Yes, So, as well as the meticulous planning that went

369
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: into the raid, Joe was also like a key figure

370
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 1: in the robbery and the events that occurred. There'd been

371
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: a newspaper report saying that, you know, there needed to

372
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: be more police sent to Jiudary in case the gang

373
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 1: happened to make a raid on the town. Now we

374
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: don't know whether Ned read this and thought, oh, this

375
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: is my chance. But when the gang when they arrived

376
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: into town, they locked the two policemen in the cells,

377
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: they took their uniform their uniforms and they kind of

378
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: paraded around town as the new police officers and the

379
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 1: same journalists who had written about the lack of policemen

380
00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: in Girruldary. When he saw these four uniforms men, he

381
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: commented that they were the kind to catch the Kellies.

382
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: So when Ned and Joe first, when they arrived first

383
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: into Derudary, they went to the Wallpack Inn, which was

384
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: just on the outskirts of the town.

385
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: Now Here there was.

386
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: A lady who were a barmaid who worked and her

387
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: name was Mary the Alarakin.

388
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 3: Oh, Mary the alarikin so a perfect match for Joe exactly.

389
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: So her real name was Mary Jordan.

390
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: However, she'd earned the nickname Mary the Alarakin apparently because

391
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: she was just such a lover of jokes and you know,

392
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: just such alarican. Now Ned remembered her, so he'd obviously

393
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: made a visit previously and got to know Mary.

394
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: Joe. However, you know, he was just absolutely taken with

395
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 2: her instantly.

396
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: In fact, during the night when Ned was there with him,

397
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: Ned had to kind of pay Mary to stop serving

398
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: alcohol simply because one he was getting so drunk, but

399
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: two he was just so besotted with Mary's personality. So

400
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: the next night, against Ned's orders, Joe rides back to

401
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: the wall back in alone to spend an evening with Mary.

402
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: Now we don't know what occurred. All that is known

403
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: is that when Joe left at midnight, he had to

404
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: be helped onto his horse because he was just so drunk. Now,

405
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: when he rode back to the police station where the

406
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: gang were and Ned apparently flew into quite a rage

407
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: and he told Joe, you know you're going to ruin

408
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: all our plans. And in fact, the next morning when

409
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: the gang robbed the bank, Joe had a mighty hangover,

410
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: and he had actually gone across the road to the

411
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: Royal Male Hotel.

412
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: To have a little hair of the dog.

413
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: And in fact, when Joe bailed up the bank teller

414
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: mister living he described Joe as looking drunk, but.

415
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 3: He was still able to help rob the bank. Yes,

416
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 3: despite his terrible hangover. Yeah, oh my goodness. So even

417
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: while Joe Byrne was riding around with the Kelly Gang

418
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 3: as an outlaw, he was still returning home to visit

419
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 3: his mum pretty regularly, wasn't he.

420
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: Yes, he was.

421
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: This is something that I believe kind of sets you

422
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: apart from some others is the fact that despite that

423
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: there was a party of police that were watching his

424
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: mother's house at Sebastopol. Now Aaron, who was working with

425
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: the police but also not working with them, told them

426
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: to watch the house from the back. So Joe he

427
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: would utilize a mining race where he would creep along

428
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't be seen from where the police were,

429
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: So this enabled him to continue his visits. However, one night,

430
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: possibly he might have been drunk, I don't know, Joe

431
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 1: had decided that he was going to visit his mother's

432
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: from the side where the police were watching, and he

433
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 1: actually stepped over a superintendent Hair. Now at the time,

434
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: Head didn't do anything because he believed that if it

435
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: was Joe Byrn, Aaron would tell them. But of course

436
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: Aaron didn't tell them. But I just, yeah, I find

437
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: it very funny that, you know, he is Joe Byurn

438
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: with you know, such a high price on his head

439
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: and he steps over the superintendent.

440
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 3: Now let's go back to the Kelly Gang armor. So

441
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: what was his role with the armor?

442
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: As far as you believe, well, Ned had a plan

443
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: that he wanted to derail a train full of police,

444
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: either kill them or use them as hostages for the

445
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 1: release of his mother, who at that time was serving

446
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: a sentence of three years hard labor in Melbourne Jail,

447
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: and from there he was going to, in full armor,

448
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: take possession of one of the Banilla banks. Now, Ned

449
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: believed that wearing the armor would mean that, you know,

450
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: there wouldn't be any risk of them being shot. Joe, however,

451
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: he wasn't a fan of this plan, and in fact

452
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: he had devised his own plan, which was to rob

453
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: one of the Beachworth banks. However, Ned, being the leader,

454
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to listen to Joe's idea. So Joe

455
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: had told Ned probably many times that he believed that

456
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: the armor would bring them to grief, despite Joe's like

457
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: a faith in the armor. Ironically, his was the best

458
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: mate suit, which probably just speaks more about you know,

459
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: just in Joe than anything else. But some people have

460
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: argued that it was Japanese samurai Ama that Joe had

461
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: seen in one of the Chinese parades in Beachworth that

462
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: inspired him to make the armor, But given that Joe

463
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: had such little faith in it, I find this very

464
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: unlikely and kind of hard to believe.

465
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 3: Now, by eighteen eighty, what was going on with Joe

466
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 3: and Aaron's friendship.

467
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: So by eighteen eighty, the friendship between Joe and Aaron

468
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: was very strained due to Aaron working with the police,

469
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: even though he wasn't giving the police any true information

470
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: about the gang, many sympathizers began to question his true motives,

471
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of kind of miscommunication and

472
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: uncertainty around what Aaron was doing, and this kind of

473
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: began to feed more into Joe's paranoia, I suppose, of

474
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: starting to question whether he could actually trust his mate.

475
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: And this was made even worse by the fact that

476
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: a police party had been installed in Aaron's hut, which

477
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: was observed by Joe's own brothers and possibly Joe himself.

478
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: And yeah, because there was so much miscommunication and uncertainty,

479
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: things just became very fractured, and Joe began to kind

480
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: of believe what he was being told by the sympathizers

481
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: and maybe even Ned or Daniel, Steve and Georgina.

482
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 3: This obviously all led to a terrible climax to the story.

483
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 3: Can you tell us what happened?

484
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: Yes, So, on the twenty sixth of June eighteen eighty, Joe,

485
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: believing now that Aaron was a trader, shot and killed

486
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: Aaron in front horrifically in front of his wife and

487
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: mother in law. After this tragic event which would have

488
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: just traumatized all involved, Joe Byrn and Dan Kelly rode

489
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: on to Glenrowan where Steve Hart and Ed Kelly had

490
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: the town of glenro And bailed up and the train

491
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: line torn up in preparation for the special train heading

492
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: up to Beechworth after Aaron's murder. There was a long

493
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: wait for the train and when the police arrived, the

494
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: gang were kind of taken unawares, mainly because at that

495
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: stage there had been a lot of alcohol consumed and

496
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: the famous siege took place with the police. Joe Byrne

497
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: was badly worned dead in their calf and later on

498
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: he was killed when a stray bullet ripped into his groin,

499
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: severing his femoral artery.

500
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: Now his body was actually rescued from the glen row

501
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 3: wan in, wasn't it ah?

502
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So before the fire could fully take hold, Joe's

503
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: body was dragged out. Then later that day it was

504
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: taken to Banella and the next day it was put

505
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: on display outside the Banella lock up for the purpose

506
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: of photos to be taken.

507
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 3: And that was for the press, wasn't it yeah?

508
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

509
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: And is it true that that photo of Joe Burn's

510
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: body propped against the wall of the police station is

511
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: recognized as Australia's first ever press photograph.

512
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yes it is.

513
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: It's amazing. And then where was Joe Byurn buried?

514
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: So Joe Burn after the post mortem and and wax

515
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: cast taken of his face in his hands for the

516
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: purpose of a figure in the Chamber of Horrors in the.

517
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: Melbourne wax Works.

518
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: Joe was buried in a paupoise grave in Banilla Cemetery.

519
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: The only people in attendance were the undertaker and a

520
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: police officer, who made it very clear that he was

521
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: only there because he had to be Oh my goodness, yeah,

522
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: very sad. We mentioned at the start of the interview

523
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: that you've been able to find quite a lot of

524
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: new information about Joe Burn. Is there something in particular

525
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: that you found of interest, Georgina. Yes. So the biggest

526
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: thing that I found is just how wide spread the

527
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: support was for Joe from the Chinese community. I'd kind

528
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: of always known that he had support among the Chinese

529
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: in Sebastopol, where he'd grown up, but you know, he

530
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: was kind of he had so much support in the

531
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: wider Chinese cammunity in the in the different towns, and

532
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: they were some of his strongest and most loyal sympathizers.

533
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: In fact, Superintendent Nicholson he was just blindsided by the

534
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: amount of support that Joe received from the Chinese, and

535
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: he believed foolishly that the only reason Joe garnered so

536
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: much support was because the Chinese there was no reward

537
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: posters in their language, so he had Chinese reward like

538
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: reward posters written up in Chinese and placed around different towns,

539
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: which is fairly ignorant. Really, you know, the reason why

540
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: Joe had so much Chinese support was because he was

541
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: respectful and he had many friends that in that community

542
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: and that served him really well as an outlaw.

543
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 3: And just finally, how would you sum up the story

544
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: of Joe Burn.

545
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: It's one of great complexity. You've got a young man

546
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: who was Alarican, but he's also a bush poet. He's

547
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: a you know, he's one of Australia's most notorious outlaws,

548
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: but he's also someone who could be very you know,

549
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: sweet and mild mannered. Yeah, he's a he's just so complex.

550
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for sharing the story. With

551
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 3: us today. Georgina, thank you.

552
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: So much for having me and allowing me to talk

553
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: about Joe.

554
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. This has been In Black and White,

555
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and

556
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Nina Young and

557
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: produced by John ty Burton. You can find all the

558
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: stories and photos associated with our episodes at Heraldsun dot

559
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 3: com dot au, slash iv a w. If you've enjoyed

560
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 3: this podcast, we'd love you to leave a five star

561
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: rating on Apple Podcasts. Even better, leave a review. Any

562
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 3: comments or questions please email me at In Black and

563
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 3: White at Heroldsun dot com dot au. Any clarifications or

564
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 3: updates will appear in the show notes for each episode,

565
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 3: and to get notified when each new episode comes out,

566
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 3: make sure you subscribe to the podcast feed