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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series contains course language

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Speaker 1: and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. Andy Reid sounded

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Speaker 1: agitated when he called a few days before the release

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Speaker 1: of this episode to talk about breaking news of a

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Speaker 1: spate of murders and a purported serial killer. The banner

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Speaker 1: headline on page one of the Sydney Daly Telegraph put

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Speaker 1: it simply gone girl. The newspaper reported that a local

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Speaker 1: politician was raising fears of a serial killer as sixty

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Speaker 1: women had disappeared or met grisly ends in the state's

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Speaker 1: north coast areas in the past thirty two years. A

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Speaker 1: photograph of Bromwyn Winfield was included in a gallery of

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Speaker 1: female victims. The report presented no evidence that Bromwyn had

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Speaker 1: been abducted and murdered by a serial killer. Soon afterwards,

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Speaker 1: Maddie Walsh, who has been a great help to me

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Speaker 1: this past year, spoke to Sydney Drivetime radio hosts Joel

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Speaker 1: Kine and Brian Fletcher, Avid listeners of the Bromwin series.

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Speaker 2: We discussed dissect and dalve into crimes of the past.

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Speaker 3: Season two of Bronwyn has over four million downloads and

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Speaker 3: Jordi Us once again is bromwin Winfield's second cousin, the

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Speaker 3: very talented young Maddi Walsh. What you've been doing is

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Speaker 3: unbelievable them Maddie. What's been happening in your world?

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Speaker 4: There is just still so much information to dive into

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Speaker 4: and dig through, just working towards getting justice for Bromwell.

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Speaker 4: Everyone in Lennox Head is talking about it. Every week

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Speaker 4: more information comes out.

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Speaker 3: Have most people in and around that area, to your knowledge,

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Speaker 3: we've heard this podcast.

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Speaker 5: Is that you're understanding.

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Speaker 6: It's been the talk of the town.

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Speaker 4: I think there is only one conclusion that they are

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Speaker 4: all standing by, and that is her husband may have

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Speaker 4: something to do with it.

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Speaker 2: You would imagine that the police are listening closely to

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Speaker 2: this because after the Teacher's pet we know what happened.

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Speaker 2: Chris Dawson was down guilty.

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Speaker 5: Casseroted. Is there any contact with the police.

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Speaker 2: Do you keep them updated, do they contact you or

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Speaker 2: are they just sort of standing from afar at the moment.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes they ask for information and they come and ask

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Speaker 4: for interviews. With Judy Singh, who came forward in the

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Speaker 4: last season about witnessing a body in the back of

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Speaker 4: the car, so it is looking promising from the police perspective.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you've seen the front pages of

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Speaker 2: Daily Telegraph today, have you read that story saying that

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Speaker 2: sixty women who were brutally murder or disappeared on the

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Speaker 2: New South Wales North Coast Wow in cases where the

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Speaker 2: perpetrators were never caught can be revealed for the first

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Speaker 2: time in fears some of the women were victims of

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Speaker 2: serial killers. This has just come to light today.

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Speaker 1: Maddie started to hoset the serial killer theory down.

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Speaker 2: Is there something you could investigate now?

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Speaker 4: Knowing Bromwin's case and her circumstances, the chances that a

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Speaker 4: serial killer was involved in her disappearance very very minuscule

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Speaker 4: and just based on all the evidence I have seen

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Speaker 4: and what we know to be what happened to bromwhen

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Speaker 4: the night she went missing and her husband being the

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Speaker 4: last person to see her alive, I don't think there

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Speaker 4: is a serial killer involved in her disappearance.

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Speaker 6: I'm not saying it's not possible.

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Speaker 4: However, I just don't think it's really in the cars

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Speaker 4: for Bronwin's.

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Speaker 2: Gross John Winfield's still up there. Isn't he a bit

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Speaker 2: of a recluse? I just can't fathom why he would

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Speaker 2: still be there.

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Speaker 4: And he stays there, he knows people talk about him.

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Speaker 4: She's still surfing and still living his life.

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Speaker 5: Obviously, the loss of Bromwin, that's the first and foremost thing.

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Speaker 5: Has he something to do with it?

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Speaker 3: That's a tragedy that he would be still ramming around

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Speaker 3: in the event that he has nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 3: That's a tragedy that he will be tired with that

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Speaker 3: sort of things. We may never know the truth of

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Speaker 3: his story. So the whole thing, Mattie, is just a

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Speaker 3: complete travesty and tragedy.

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Speaker 1: The fallout from the podcast and the separate linking of

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Speaker 1: Bronwin's disappearance to a supposed serial killer are taking a toll.

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Speaker 1: Bronwin's eldest daughter, Crystal responded by posting on Facebook.

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Speaker 5: Interesting read in today's paper?

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Speaker 6: Did a serial killer kill my mom?

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Speaker 5: She's one of the women listed.

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Speaker 7: In this article as possible victims, and it's good to

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Speaker 7: see are the possibilities being explored.

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Speaker 1: Sentiments like these from Crystal are difficult for Brohman's brother

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Speaker 1: Andy and his wife Michelle to read.

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Speaker 5: And hear.

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Speaker 1: In the two subscriber episodes of eleven and twelve, you

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Speaker 1: heard Crystal's perspective on the case and how Crystal lost

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Speaker 1: her life savings to a self proclaimed soul doctor.

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Speaker 8: She was asked to purchase a large number of gold bullion,

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Speaker 8: and that gold bullion is no longer gold bullion. It

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Speaker 8: is now actually a container full of cement.

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Speaker 5: Well, how does that happen?

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Speaker 8: Whilst they were actually sitting with her in a park,

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Speaker 8: they have actually shown her a magic trick, and whilst

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Speaker 8: she's been blown away by the magic trick and she's

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Speaker 8: not paying attention, they have switched the container that had

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Speaker 8: the gold in it and have actually replaced it with

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Speaker 8: a container of the same exact likeness and it has

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Speaker 8: ce mention.

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Speaker 1: It is that sort of money, three hundred to three

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars very important and significant for Crystal. Yes,

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Speaker 1: relationships are under strained. There is an elderly woman called

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Speaker 1: Vapu who knew Bromman when she was a girl and

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Speaker 1: Andy was just a little fella. Vapoo and the Reed

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Speaker 1: family were neighbors and Vapo has strongly suspected for a

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Speaker 1: long time that John killed Broman In May nineteen ninety three, John,

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Speaker 1: of course, emphatically denies wrongdoing. When Crystal posted on Facebook

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Speaker 1: about a purported serial killer being responsible. Instead, Vapo replied

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Speaker 1: with three emojis. They were laughing emojis. Crystel's younger sister,

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Speaker 1: Lauren was appalled, and as with Crystal voice, actor will

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Speaker 1: read how she responded.

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Speaker 5: These are Lauren's words. It's not her voice.

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Speaker 9: It's all just entertainment for people like you, isn't it?

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Speaker 9: Three laughing emojis? Is that one for each of Bromwin's daughters,

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Speaker 9: who you know will see this. Too many gutless keyboard

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Speaker 9: bullies who think they're detective heroes, and too many gullible idiots. Also,

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Speaker 9: Us daughters have had enough of people like you not

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Speaker 9: only disrespecting us, but you're disrespecting every single one of

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Speaker 9: these sixty women and their families.

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Speaker 1: Crystal recently unfriended me, having sent me a Facebook request

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Speaker 1: some months.

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Speaker 5: Ago, but I'm not family.

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Speaker 1: Maddie has always got along well with Crystal, and now

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Speaker 1: they're not on speaking terms. Maddie's auntie Meghan, has been

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Speaker 1: unhappy too, because her twenty one year old forensic science

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Speaker 1: graduate niece spoke her mind about evidence which suggested that

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Speaker 1: Megan had said things about Bromin to Detective Graham Diskin

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Speaker 1: in the original police investigation. You heard this in the

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Speaker 1: subscriber episodes eleven and twelve. Are you comfortable describing the

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Speaker 1: impact on your own friendship with Crystal as a result

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Speaker 1: of the work you've been doing trying to find out

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Speaker 1: who possibly murdered her mother Bromwin. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Look, coming into this, I knew that it would be

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Speaker 4: difficult with my situation. In my position, I wasn't alive

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Speaker 4: when Bromwin was alive, so I'm able to kind of

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Speaker 4: separate myself from the emotional impacts that Andy Michelle have

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Speaker 4: and Crystal have and other family members have. Showing my

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Speaker 4: opinion on what I think is the case and my

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Speaker 4: opinion based on the evidence I'm seeing. With Crystal especially,

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Speaker 4: I knew it would create distance. I'm trying to stay

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Speaker 4: biased and stay true to myself and stay true to

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Speaker 4: the evidence, and if that means that our relationship is

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Speaker 4: a little bit skewed at the moment, then that's a

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Speaker 4: sacrifice unwilling to make if it results in something worthwhile,

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Speaker 4: and I know it won't be forever. I know that

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Speaker 4: relationships can be mended, and this is just right now.

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Speaker 10: I got a telephone call from Andy about this and

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Speaker 10: he was a bit disappointed that this prospect had even

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Speaker 10: been raised in relation to Bromin Well.

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Speaker 4: I've spoken to Andy as well and Michelle, and they

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Speaker 4: both expressed the disbelief that a serial killer could have

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Speaker 4: been involved in Brownwin's disappearance. From what they were saying

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Speaker 4: in this article, there are so many missing and murdered

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Speaker 4: women from Newcastle all the way up to the border.

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Speaker 4: They've come to this conclusion that it's a possibility that

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Speaker 4: there could be a serial killer.

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Speaker 6: A lot of these.

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Speaker 4: Women were eighteen, nineteen up to twenty years old, and

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Speaker 4: there were hitch hiking, which we know is not the

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Speaker 4: case for Bromwyn. It was a bit of a reach.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it has any connection to Bromwin's case.

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Speaker 4: Everyone's got their viewpoint, everyone's got their opinion, and Crystal

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Speaker 4: has hers.

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Speaker 1: It's as if she is really embracing this proposition that

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Speaker 1: a serial killer was responsible.

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Speaker 4: I did see on Facebook that Crystal posted about this article,

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Speaker 4: and she seemed very open to this idea that a

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Speaker 4: serial killer could be responsible.

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Speaker 1: Instead of her step Fowler.

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Speaker 6: She has always been looking for other possibilities.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to come to that kind of conclusion that

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Speaker 4: someone so close to her could have possibly done something

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Speaker 4: so terrible, Like she's kind of glad that this has

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Speaker 4: come out and grouped with all these other missing and

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Speaker 4: murdered women.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like you could talk to her about

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Speaker 1: this and try to express the.

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Speaker 6: Country, I mean, probably not.

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Speaker 4: She's so against the possibility of John being possibly involved

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Speaker 4: in Bromwin's disappearance. I don't think she wants to hear

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Speaker 4: anything else about it. I mean, she says she is

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Speaker 4: disconnected from the podcast. Her and sisters don't want anything

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Speaker 4: to do with it. They they don't have any part

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Speaker 4: in it. So for her family members to outright say

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Speaker 4: to her, look, the possibility of a serial killer being

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Speaker 4: involved in your mum's disappearance is very, very far fetched.

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Speaker 6: It probably wouldn't go over well.

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Speaker 4: She doesn't want her dad to be the only suspect

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Speaker 4: in this case. That's what she believes, and that maybe

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Speaker 4: brings her a bit more peace. That's where it becomes

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Speaker 4: a really difficult situation, because you have most of the

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Speaker 4: families really sitting by this one possibility of what happened

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Speaker 4: when we have only ever had one suspect this entire time,

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Speaker 4: we have really reviewed this entire case. No one else

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Speaker 4: has popped up. But then you have Bromwin's kids who

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Speaker 4: think completely differently and really just don't think that their

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Speaker 4: father was involved in her disappearance, and bringing another factor

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Speaker 4: like a serial killer with no real facts surrounding this

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Speaker 4: serial killer.

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Speaker 6: There's nothing, it's just a figment.

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Speaker 4: So for the Telegraph to just group bromwent into this,

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Speaker 4: it kind of creates this weird situation where it's, in

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Speaker 4: my opinion, creating false hope. But what they're not considering

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Speaker 4: other circumstances around her disappearance. It's just very far fetched,

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Speaker 4: especially if we consider John's story of Bromwin said she

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Speaker 4: needed a break and she walked out the door and

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Speaker 4: got into a car. I doubt you get into a

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Speaker 4: car with a serial killer. I just think that's a

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Speaker 4: bit far fetch that the same night that John was

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Speaker 4: in Lennox Head was the same night that a serial

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Speaker 4: killer happened to be in Lennox Head and picked from

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Speaker 4: went up and she was never seen again. It doesn't

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Speaker 4: correlate with any of the stories that John has shared,

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Speaker 4: but at the end of the day, that is not

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Speaker 4: going to stop this investigation, and that is not going

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Speaker 4: to change what the truth is. The truth will probably

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Speaker 4: still come out, but.

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Speaker 1: The tensions in the family are still there.

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Speaker 4: I think closure will heal a lot of wounds with

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Speaker 4: the family, and I think it will.

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Speaker 6: Bring a lot of us back together, but unfortunately people

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Speaker 6: will be caught in the crossfire.

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Speaker 1: We know that Robin's cakes was very poorly investigated, and

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Speaker 1: we know that only one person was found by the

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Speaker 1: former deputy state coroner to have been possibly responsible. It

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Speaker 1: actually reminds me of one part of the inquest that

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Speaker 1: was held and Lynn Dawson as she was then known,

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Speaker 1: was missing. She'd been missing by them for just over

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Speaker 1: twenty years.

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Speaker 5: I recall it.

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Speaker 1: Chris Dawson's brother, who was also his solicitor, was suggesting

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Speaker 1: that the serial killer Ivan Malatt may have been responsible

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Speaker 1: for Lynn's disappearance. I dealt with some of this in

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Speaker 1: the Teacher's Pet podcast series when we reconstructed evidence from

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Speaker 1: the two thousand and three inquest. The detective Damian Lehne

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Speaker 1: was in the witness box.

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Speaker 11: Ivan Mullatt's monstrous appetite for sex and death marks him

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Speaker 11: out as one of the country's most notorious serial killers.

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Speaker 1: Did you investigate any of the suggestions that Ivan Malatt

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Speaker 1: was in that area at the time.

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Speaker 5: It's like saying, how long is a piece of string?

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Speaker 5: Mister Dawson.

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Speaker 1: Damien and the coroner believed that Peter Dawson was clutching

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Speaker 1: at straws. Here. Malat's victims were raised nineteen to twenty two,

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Speaker 1: and his killing spree occurred between nineteen eighty nine and

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. He hunted in Sydney's west, far from

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Speaker 1: Sydney's northern beaches and the central coast farther north.

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Speaker 5: I have nothing to lead me in that area, and

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Speaker 5: I have to discount it. There is nothing to suggest

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Speaker 5: that mister Malatt was in Bayview on nine or ten January.

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Speaker 5: He may be. I don't know that.

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Speaker 1: No one knows that the lawyer tried to paint Damien

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Speaker 1: as a cop suffering from tunnel vision, of being fixated

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Speaker 1: on Chris Dawson as the probable killer without asking him

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Speaker 1: for more facts. Why hadn't he made Ivan Mulatter suspect.

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Speaker 1: Now let's go back to Glen Taylor's interview with John

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Speaker 1: Winfield in the Ballona Police station. It's early August nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight. What about keys to the house. Do you

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Speaker 1: know whether she took any keys?

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Speaker 12: Has she still got them?

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Speaker 5: Whether she took the keys on that night?

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Speaker 12: I look, they would have been in her handbag. I

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Speaker 12: guess you know.

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Speaker 5: But you've never since that, Tom, You've never located anything.

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Speaker 13: No.

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Speaker 12: Yeah, well she's been back to the house since then,

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Speaker 12: because she brought she came back to the house sometime later,

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Speaker 12: I can't remember when, and she picked up clothes, and

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Speaker 12: she picked up Medicare. She dropped off a Medicare check,

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Speaker 12: and she would have and she didn't break into the house,

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Speaker 12: so she would have had keys to get into it.

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Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor circled back to John's decision to drive the

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Speaker 1: kids to Sydney.

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Speaker 12: What time did I decide to go? Yes, So Graham

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Speaker 12: asked me this, and I sort of said to him,

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Speaker 12: I bought petrol in Balliner. Would that have been long

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Speaker 12: after she left? Maybe half an hour? I don't know,

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Speaker 12: maybe half an hour. But the reason why is because

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Speaker 12: I think I gave my bank card stuff to Graham

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Speaker 12: to show him I bought petrol in Balaner on the

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Speaker 12: way through at the endpole there and it showed the

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Speaker 12: date on it. I think it was the next day

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Speaker 12: on the date of the bank card, like the seventeenth,

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Speaker 12: you know what I mean, Like the Saturday night was

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Speaker 12: the sixteenth, and so obviously I bought the petrol after

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Speaker 12: midnight sometime.

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Speaker 1: You know, it appears that John has momentarily forgotten that

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Speaker 1: he purchased fuel at eleven oh six pm something he

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Speaker 1: was at pains to highlight to Andy and Michelle back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three when he arrived at the house

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Speaker 1: in the Shire in Sydney on the afternoon of Monday

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Speaker 1: May seventeen.

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Speaker 5: I think there was a docket here.

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Speaker 12: Yeah, there's a bank card docket. I remember he asked

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Speaker 12: me about it.

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Speaker 1: John volunteered that he bought petrol again at a town

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Speaker 1: called Kempsey, about a four hour drive south of Ballina.

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Speaker 12: See that car ran on petrol and gas. I used

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Speaker 12: to I can't remember if I had it this, but

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Speaker 12: I used to fill it up with petrol and gas

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Speaker 12: at once. Yes, I used to only have to stop

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Speaker 12: once between here and Sydney, whenever I used to go

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Speaker 12: to Sydney.

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Speaker 5: You know when you left with the children, did you

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Speaker 5: obviously had to carry them out to the car and

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Speaker 5: put them in the vehicle.

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Speaker 12: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Did you take some clothes for them?

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Speaker 12: Oh? Yeah, yeah, pack clothes. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Here's Michelle's recollection about that, and her account is backed

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Speaker 1: up by Bromwin's half sister Melissa.

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Speaker 13: It was just really, really strange that he packed up

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Speaker 13: and through clothes that weren't even appropriate for Sydney weather.

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Speaker 13: And inside pillowcases were just kids cloth pillow case here,

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Speaker 13: in a pillowcase there, And there might have been a

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Speaker 13: smallish bag of some sort. Melissa and I went shopping

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Speaker 13: so they could have something to wear, because nothing in

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Speaker 13: it was appropriate to wear.

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Speaker 5: Did you leave any nate or anything to say that

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Speaker 5: you'd taken the children? No is here any reason you didn't.

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Speaker 12: Didn't think of it. I was sort of I don't know,

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Speaker 12: I just didn't think of it. Just took the kids,

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Speaker 12: you know.

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Speaker 5: So you drove right through night?

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Speaker 12: Yeah? Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Do you know what time you would have arrived at Sydney.

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Speaker 7: Ah?

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Speaker 12: Yeah. I was going through Sydney at peak hour traffic,

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Speaker 12: so usually takes me nine or ten hours, So I

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Speaker 12: was probably going through Sydney, I don't know, eight in

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Speaker 12: the morning, something like that, eight or nine.

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Speaker 5: Can you tell me.

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Speaker 12: I know the car was unregistered too, because I once

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Speaker 12: I got to Sydney, I had to go straight and

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Speaker 12: get a pink slip straight away and get it registered.

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Speaker 1: We know that John was very careful with money. He

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Speaker 1: kept a tight grip on the family finances while he

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Speaker 1: was away working in Sydney. The registration on the Ford

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Speaker 1: Falcon expired. John had bought the car on May seven,

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Speaker 1: the year before.

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Speaker 5: It is probable that the.

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Speaker 1: Annual registration ran out exactly a year later, so on

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Speaker 1: Friday May seven, nine days before Bromin's disappearance. It is

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Speaker 1: also likely that the subject of the expired registration came

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Speaker 1: up when John went to the house on the evening

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Speaker 1: of Sunday May sixteen. Perhaps John expected Bromin to pay

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Speaker 1: for the registration out of her own funds as she

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Speaker 1: was using the car while he was away in Sydney. Crystal,

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Speaker 1: as a sixteen year old, said something in her police

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Speaker 1: statement to Glenn Taylor, and it could have been directly

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Speaker 1: related to the expired regio.

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Speaker 14: I think at one stage they went into the bedroom

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Speaker 14: and they were talking in there. I remember mom and

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Speaker 14: Dad were talking about on paid bills and Mum saying

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Speaker 14: something along the lines about not talking about it in

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Speaker 14: front of Lauren and myself. The next thing that I

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Speaker 14: remember was Mum telling myself and my sister Lauren to

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Speaker 14: clean our teeth and go to bed.

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Speaker 5: I think we normally went to.

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Speaker 14: Bed about eight thirty pm each night. After I went

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Speaker 14: to bed, I heard Mum and Dad arguing in the kitchen.

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Speaker 14: I could hear Mom crying at the same time. I

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Speaker 14: don't recall what was being said between Mum and Dad,

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Speaker 14: but I could tell that they were arguing. I could

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Speaker 14: hear them arguing until I must have fell asleep. My

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Speaker 14: next recollection that night was being woken by my father.

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Speaker 14: Dad told me that he was taking Lauren a night

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Speaker 14: to Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Crystal was recalling the events surrounding John's arrival at the

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Speaker 1: house and the last time she saw her mother was

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Speaker 1: one of the unpaid bills the registration for the Ford Falcon.

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Speaker 1: John knew on Monday May seventeen, when he arrived in

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Speaker 1: Sydney after his drive through the night, that the registration

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Speaker 1: had expired because he made arrangements to pay it that day.

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Speaker 1: For me, this event reinforces Glenn's suspicion about John having

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Speaker 1: gone into flight mode or a panic state on the

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Speaker 1: Sunday night. Driving an unregistered car for some ten hours

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Speaker 1: on Australia's major highway and then on roads in the

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Speaker 1: nation's biggest city is risky. If there is an accident,

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Speaker 1: there are serious legal consequences, but just a traffic stop

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Speaker 1: would result in a hefty fine, And in nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: the expiry of a car's registration was obvious to the

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Speaker 1: trained eye. Back then, the registration sticker was stuck to

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Speaker 1: the windscreen, the expiry date was printed on the sticker.

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Speaker 1: The color of the sticker would signal whether a vehicle

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Speaker 1: was on the road illegally. If Bromwin had gone as

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Speaker 1: John claims, he could have stayed in the house on

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Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent, allowing his two daughters to keep sleeping, and

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Speaker 1: then on Monday morning he could have gone to Balner

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Speaker 1: and had the car registered. Why did he decide to

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Speaker 1: up and leave so suddenly, to drive through the night

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Speaker 1: with all the attendant risks. He must have been shattered

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Speaker 1: from having had no sleep when he set out.

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Speaker 5: Can you tell me where you went to? First of all?

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Speaker 5: First of all, did you go to a relative's house

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Speaker 5: or friend's house, just trying to think. I went to.

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Speaker 12: I don't know whether this is in order, but I

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Speaker 12: know A called into my daughter at her work. I

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Speaker 12: had the kids with me.

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Speaker 5: Or think is that the hairdressing salon?

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Speaker 12: Yeah? Yeah, I called into Michelle's place. I think I

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Speaker 12: think it was Michelle or that afternoon I called into

404
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Speaker 12: Michelle and Andrew. That's Bronwin's sister in law and brother.

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Speaker 12: I called into their place that afternoon.

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Speaker 5: But the first point, first person you think might have

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Speaker 5: been Judy. Did you say it at the hairdressing salon?

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Speaker 12: I can't remember. Probably, yeah, probably, I don't know. I

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Speaker 12: can't remember where I first. And then I mean we

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Speaker 12: had breakfast somewhere, and then I had to go. I

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Speaker 12: went straight and got a pink well not straight, but

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Speaker 12: sometime that day I got a pink slip from the

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Speaker 12: service station in Crinulla, and then I went to the

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Speaker 12: motor registry at and then no, I got a pink

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Speaker 12: slip and a green slip from the same guy. And

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Speaker 12: I went to Miranda Registry and registered the car all

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Speaker 12: on that day the first day I got there, because

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Speaker 12: the car had no REGI on it.

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Speaker 1: John has failed to mention a very important stop that

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Speaker 1: he made after his purported visit to the salon it

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Speaker 1: which Jodie worked on that Monday morning. He has failed

422
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: to disclose to the detectives in the ball and a

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Speaker 1: police station that in fact, he went to the home

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Speaker 1: of his former wife, Jenny Mason, but she was out

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Speaker 1: shopping and John implored her mother in law, a woman

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Speaker 1: whom he had never met before, to take the two

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Speaker 1: girls for several hours so that he could go and

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Speaker 1: do something. Michelle and Andy Reid were shocked when they

429
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 1: discovered this stopover as a result of good detective work

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Speaker 1: by Glenn Taylor.

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Speaker 13: That blew me away, loom me away.

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Speaker 5: But he didn't tell you that.

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Speaker 13: No, these kids, they would never have met Jenny, let

434
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Speaker 13: alone Jenny's.

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Speaker 5: Mother in law.

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Speaker 13: He made out that he come to Sydney, and he

437
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Speaker 13: come to us bombshell.

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Speaker 6: That was to us.

439
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Speaker 1: The natural thing to do would have been to go

440
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Speaker 1: to Bromwin's brother and law. Course, but he went to

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Speaker 1: his ex wife's home.

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Speaker 13: The mother in law was down visiting. He had no

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Speaker 13: idea who this random bloke was.

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Speaker 1: Here's the former detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor talking to me

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00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: during the production of this episode sixteen.

446
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 5: There was certainly a lot of things we didn't know

447
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 5: in a lot of things he didn't reveal during the interview,

448
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 5: the things like his movements when he first got down

449
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 5: to Sydney, or he was extremely vague in the interview. Yes,

450
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 5: there had been five years, but some things, I mean

451
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 5: you just think, well, how could.

452
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: You forget that?

453
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 5: No mention of going to the ex wife's home and

454
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 5: two kids in pajamas, I mean you think that would

455
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 5: have to be still fresh in your mind even after

456
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 5: five years.

457
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: It was such an unusual thing for him to do,

458
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: to turn up at his ex wife's place when the interview,

459
00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: we weren't aware of that.

460
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 5: Would you never know that?

461
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: These people alone?

462
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 5: We had to get more information about here we'd been

463
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 5: previously married to you, and then we had to work

464
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 5: out how we're going to contact these people shift they'd

465
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 5: be willing to be interviewed.

466
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: And yes, I mean, why would you do that? Why

467
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: would you go there? Why would you go the ex

468
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: wif's place?

469
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 5: Why wouldn't you go to the immediate family members, go

470
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 5: to Michelle and Andrews and give them a ring and say, look,

471
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 5: I'm in a dilama Bromin's taken off for a couple

472
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 5: of weeks. Let me with the kids, can't your gob out.

473
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 5: But the woman that was there, he'd never met her before.

474
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 5: The kids point for me with her. I think it

475
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 5: was the mother in law of the ex wife from

476
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 5: the new partner. Lady had never let the keys or him.

477
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 5: They're in pajamas and hardy clothes with them to change

478
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 5: them into, and he'd not come back for quite a

479
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 5: few hours, so we said quite a few hours in Sydney,

480
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 5: And again we didn't want to be aggressive with in

481
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 5: the interview. And of course he's there voluntarily as a witness,

482
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 5: but he's not really disclosing a great deal at all

483
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 5: that where he went to and what he did.

484
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: I think he'd already been to see Jodi at that state.

485
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: He said he went to see JD but we don't

486
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 1: have any proof. So he sad several hours on his own. Someday.

487
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: Have you wondered or questioned since discovering his movements why

488
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: he would have omitted such an unforgettable thing as to

489
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: the visit to his ex wife's house. I think he

490
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: wanted to hopefully we don't discover what he did, which

491
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: movements and all that day. I agree, But.

492
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 5: Why that's probably only an answer that John Winfield knows.

493
00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: Why Why is he trying to distance the police from

494
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: his movements on that Monday in Sydney when he's driving

495
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: and he gets rid of the children at his ex

496
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: wife's mother in law's place. Why does he not want

497
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: you to discover this? That's what I'm curious and auspicious about.

498
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 5: I'm curious. I think I've thought about that since nineteen

499
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 5: ninety eight. Why did he do that?

500
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 1: There's so many things. And you've seen him around Lennox

501
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: in recent days and weeks, seending a number of times.

502
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: His green station wagon he's getting in.

503
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 5: He's good friends with a concrete He just lives around

504
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 5: the corner from us. He's a regular visitor, both myself

505
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 5: and my wife in her own cars, within five minutes

506
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 5: of each other, both your one and home of the day.

507
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 5: And he was seated in his car with his cap

508
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 5: on and outside the concrete his house.

509
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: He happened to stare at me, and then he stared

510
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: at my wife. As coming to the street, Glenn Taylor

511
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: arrived seeing John out driving on another very recent day, we.

512
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 5: Just happened to come up behind his car and I said, oh,

513
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 5: what he's doing.

514
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: I'll just be interested to see where he's going.

515
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 5: And he went left and then he just went left, left, left,

516
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 5: and then he came right back. Commander, Well, at first scene,

517
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 5: I mean town a couple of weeks ago, his tunne

518
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 5: of a trailer, and I think he's sort of watching

519
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 5: his back all the time.

520
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: Do you think he was deploying samanti surveillance?

521
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 5: For sure? It was classic Andy surbilance and then after

522
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 5: one surbilance on suspects numerous times in my career, both

523
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 5: as a police officer and also a private investigator, and

524
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 5: it might be just an innocent person behind him to

525
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 5: go in the same direction, but he'd probably pull over

526
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 5: and think someone's falling in a registry office.

527
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: Four vehicles in the Southern Shire was in Miranda, and

528
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: John was asked by the detectives when he went there.

529
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 12: It was in the afternoon. I suppose did you.

530
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 5: Try ringing the family home at Lenox Head during the

531
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 5: course off of state.

532
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 12: I don't know if I did personally, but I probably

533
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 12: when we went and visited Andrew and Michelle that afternoon,

534
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 12: probably we tried to ring. Then I suppose and the

535
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 12: phone was off the hook.

536
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 5: Right, Okay, when you go to that night to stay,

537
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 5: who were you staying.

538
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 12: With with my daughter Jodie her place?

539
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 5: Jady was living in Sydney at that stage.

540
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, I stayed in that She was at a place

541
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 12: called I think it was Marlowe Road, a unit in

542
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 12: Marlowe Road.

543
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 5: Where did the children sleep?

544
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 12: Yeah, they were sleeping on the floor.

545
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: The strong recollection of Michelle and Andy Reid, however, is

546
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: that the children and John stayed at their house. John

547
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: didn't stay the whole time, though.

548
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 5: So you think you tried to ring the family home

549
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 5: at Lenox Head from Michelle Rhid's plug.

550
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, they'll be able to verify that because I know

551
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 12: Andrew well, it was their phone. I think that Andrew

552
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 12: was the one that rang first and the phone was engaged.

553
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 5: You know when you took the children to Sydney. Yeah,

554
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 5: how long was it your intention for them to stay

555
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 5: in Sydney for? Oh?

556
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 12: They I can't remember having any intention, really, any intention

557
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 12: at all.

558
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 5: That recall about the conversation with Bromwin about her having

559
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 5: a break from the children.

560
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 12: I know someone said that about that in the letter.

561
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 12: I think she might have said she wanted a break.

562
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 12: She was, Oh, I really can't remember. Honestly, I can't.

563
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 12: I really can't remember. I can't remember what we talked about.

564
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: Here John distanced himself again from what he had previously

565
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: told a number of people about what Bromwin purportedly told him.

566
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 13: We were standing on our little front Feranda just to here,

567
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 13: you know, he said, oh, Brolin left me, and I went, oh, okay.

568
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 6: He was like jittery and all of that.

569
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 13: And then he said, well, actually she needed a break.

570
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 13: She's going on a holiday. And I thought to myself,

571
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 13: is she on a holiday or.

572
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 5: Has she left him? Like, in my head, I'm thinking

573
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 5: that's weird.

574
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 13: It's just my nature to be a little bit suspicious

575
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 13: and stuff.

576
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 5: But to your knowledge, she had already left it.

577
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 13: And then he switched it to she needed a break,

578
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 13: she needs a break, and she's going to get her

579
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 13: head together for her and so he brought the kids

580
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 13: to sitting.

581
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: It is as if John no longer wants to own

582
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: responsibility for these things. Instead, I think that he wants

583
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: the detective to focus on Bromwin's own written words about

584
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: a break. You heard in episode ten that the break

585
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: Bromwin had briefly written about was her plan to visit

586
00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: her mother, Barbara and her grandmother. Here's Bromwin's mother's sister,

587
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: Auntie Jan talking about that. One of the things that

588
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: is written down by Bromman in these papers that she

589
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: wrote before she disappeared was that she was going to

590
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: take a break and that she'd be coming back and

591
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: should be fine.

592
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 6: That's probably when she was going to mums to Hobart.

593
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 13: Before she rang mum, she'd spoken to Barb a couple

594
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 13: of times regarding what was going on, and bab was

595
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 13: quite distressed about it.

596
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 5: And then she rang Mum and then asked her first

597
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 5: some money.

598
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 6: That the plan was, according to my mum, that she

599
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 6: was coming over to Hobart.

600
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 5: So you didn't have any sect thing in your mind

601
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 5: that you were going to be sitting for a week

602
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 5: or two weeks.

603
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 12: Or not really, no, No, I just sort of went,

604
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 12: you know, sort of like I said, it may have

605
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 12: been school holidays. I can't remember. I really can't remember

606
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 12: that time.

607
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 5: What did you do in you know, over that ten days.

608
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 12: Or so, probably just hang about just sort of sightseeing

609
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 12: and everything, you know.

610
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: Now, according to the builder Glenn Webster, who had employed

611
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: John as a bricklayer. John was back on the job

612
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: doing work for Glenn at what was then a relatively

613
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: isolated building site in Illawong during this period when John

614
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: was back in Sydney with the girls. Here's what Glenn

615
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: Webster put in his statement in September nineteen ninety eight

616
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: when Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor spoke to him.

617
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 15: It didn't take long before John was back in Sydney.

618
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 15: It may have only been two or three days that

619
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 15: he'd been absent.

620
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 12: I recall that he.

621
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 15: Came to my home driving a white Falcon Sedan. He

622
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 15: had with him his two girls, Crystal and Lauren. From memory,

623
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 15: John and the girls stayed with us at our home for.

624
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 12: One or two days.

625
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 15: I don't recall the reasons John gave the girls with him.

626
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 15: I probably would have asked him why he brought the

627
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 15: children to Sydney, but at this point I don't remember

628
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 15: what he told me. I don't have any recollection of

629
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 15: John mentioning anything about Bronwyn After he came with the girls.

630
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,439
Speaker 15: I think he organized some other people to look after

631
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 15: the girls whilst he did a bit more work on

632
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 15: my house. I vaguely recall him telling me that he

633
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 15: wasn't able to finish the job. I don't recall what reasons,

634
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 15: if any, he gave for not being able to finish

635
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 15: the job.

636
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: John's failure to mention the work that he did at

637
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: Glenn's house might be a coincidence. He might have forgotten

638
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: in the same way that he might have forgotten the

639
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: very unusual decision he made to visit his former wife's house. Alternatively,

640
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: those two omissions could be deliberate avoidance, evidence of John

641
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: having deliberately edited part of the reality of that day

642
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: to minimize scrutiny.

643
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 5: Why was it.

644
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: Because he did not want to draw attention to his

645
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: movements that day and to the house that he had

646
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: been building in Illawan in the Shire where a concrete

647
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: poor was imminent.

648
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 5: Did you try to ring Bromley on occasions?

649
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 12: Well, we found out like the phone was engaged for

650
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 12: some reason. He was engaged for probably a couple of days, right,

651
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 12: So I rang my next door neighbor and got him

652
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 12: to get into the house. He broke a back window

653
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 12: and just had to look inside the house, you know,

654
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 12: And that's when he found out the phone was off

655
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 12: the hook. And he was the one he told us

656
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 12: who was that Murray Nolan.

657
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 16: So I've got the court. He said, would you mind

658
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 16: going up the house? Would you mind going up to

659
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 16: the house and breaking in for me. There's a glass

660
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 16: panel next to the back door. He said, put your

661
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 16: hand open the door and get in. And I said

662
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 16: that's fine.

663
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: I think I'll do that.

664
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 16: He said, yeah, because I've been trying to ring Bromlin

665
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 16: and I want you to little see the robins there.

666
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 16: Because I've been ringing, I'm getting all answer. John said

667
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 16: to me, I'll ring you back in twenty minutes. So

668
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 16: I'm Sussagan.

669
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 5: You never left the phone off the hook after you

670
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 5: left the house, did you?

671
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 12: No, no, no, no. I only made those two calls earlier,

672
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 12: like what Graham said, after I had left with the

673
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 12: kids at what eleven o'clockish. Apparently she had come back

674
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 12: to the house and made that zero zero five five number.

675
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 12: That's what that's where Graham had established anyway, because it

676
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 12: was the same number as she'd been ringing on her

677
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 12: phone bill at forty two Byron Street, and that from

678
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 12: my memory, that zero zero five five number was made

679
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 12: in the early hours of the next morning. But that's

680
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 12: only what Graham told me. I don't know, okay, I

681
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 12: never even saw the phone bill.

682
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 5: At a certain point in time, did you decide to

683
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 5: come back to Lennox Head with.

684
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 12: The kids, Yeah, we came back and tell me when

685
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 12: that gate was ge well, it would be in there

686
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 12: and whatever it was, that's the day.

687
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 5: I think it was around about approximately two weeks.

688
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 12: Okay, well that's what it was. Yeah.

689
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 5: Did you drive direct reach here the family home?

690
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:15,959
Speaker 1: Yeah?

691
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, I think so. No one was there. The back

692
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 12: window had a piece of ply over it, you know,

693
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 12: because it had been broken. There's glass all through the

694
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 12: house because Murray he broke the window, but he had

695
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 12: a bad back of the time, so he didn't bother

696
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 12: cleaning up. There was a medicare check on the front,

697
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 12: not the front, the kitchen bench, on the island bench

698
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 12: right a medicare check sitting there, signed and it was

699
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 12: a check.

700
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 5: Signed by who her? And you believe that chick was

701
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 5: definitely not at the house at time when you left.

702
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,479
Speaker 12: Definitely not. I know it wasn't there when I left.

703
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 12: No way, have you any idea when it was dated?

704
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 5: The check?

705
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 12: Well, it's in it's in Graham stuff. There are you

706
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 12: willing to give us that check? Again, Sure, I'll give

707
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 12: it back to you. Well, I don't know if I'll

708
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 12: give it back to you, but I'll give you a

709
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 12: photostat copy, you know.

710
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: John then described dealing with the furniture and the other

711
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: contents of the house. He estimated that ninety percent of

712
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: what Bromin had taken away when she left Sandstone Crescent

713
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: had been brought back when she returned to the house

714
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: and started moving back in on Friday, May fourteen.

715
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 12: And she left the rest down there, you know, and

716
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 12: the landlord put it in the storage place in one

717
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 12: of her garages out the back, you know, and eventually

718
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 12: she gave it back to me. Right, So I got

719
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 12: it all. There was a few pots and pans, There

720
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 12: was bags of clothes. There was just a lot of

721
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 12: crap that she left there, you know. So over a

722
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 12: period of time, I carted that stuff up and just

723
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 12: put it in a pile inside the garage, right, And

724
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 12: then I took the kids to Sydney. Right. So I

725
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 12: went to Sydney twice, you know. I took the kids

726
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 12: to Sydney and we came back, right, and then we

727
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 12: went again.

728
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 5: The first time you come back, did you report her

729
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 5: missing to the police?

730
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 12: I took the kids to Sydney, Yes, came back with

731
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 12: by was it two weeks later, Yes, and then reported

732
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 12: her missing downstairs to the lady policewoman.

733
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 5: Yes.

734
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: Devan Murray Nolan have told me how they recalled the

735
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: lead up to this.

736
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 7: There are certain things I do remember exactly what I

737
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 7: said and what it was said. And he stood on

738
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 7: the back Brandy here and we're chatting, and I said, John,

739
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 7: I am really concerned about Bromin.

740
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 6: We need to report her missing. No, no, no, no, no,

741
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 6: I'm not going to do that sip for John. No

742
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 6: one's hurt from us. I'm really concerned about it. You

743
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 6: need to report her missing.

744
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 7: Him being the next akin, I thought, well, he asked

745
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 7: to door anyway, so no, he was not going to

746
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 7: do it.

747
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 5: He was just.

748
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 6: Artamently no no, no, no, no.

749
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 7: No, no, it's all good, it's all lood Ya should

750
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 7: come back and all this, And I'm like thinking, he doesn't.

751
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 5: Want her report. Did this scene composed?

752
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, not at all concerned.

753
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 7: And I thought, I'm free to hear about this woman

754
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 7: because as I said, no mobile phone's back then, so

755
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 7: you couldn't find anybody.

756
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 6: I thought, where is she?

757
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 7: I thought, maybe she's done something to herself. I said,

758
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 7: all right, John, it's like this. If you don't report

759
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 7: the missing, I will, and he's gone, no, No, if

760
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 7: anyone's going to do it, it'll be me. I said, right,

761
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 7: And we were at home here and you can correct

762
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:37,959
Speaker 7: me if I'm wrong here.

763
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 6: But he either came down or irraineus came now.

764
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 5: He came downhall.

765
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 7: He said, I'm going into report problem missing, and why

766
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 7: do you come up and watch the kids? And I said, yeah, sure, yeah,

767
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 7: all right, okay, and I think you went up because

768
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 7: I say here with our kids, and you ended up

769
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 7: going up there watching.

770
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: The two girls.

771
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 5: They were in a bit, weren't they.

772
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 7: He did say something like I want to report this

773
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 7: well as fresh in my mind.

774
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 6: I'm thinking he's had time to contrupt some story.

775
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: So he went in and.

776
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 7: He reported and missing that night, and I think you

777
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 7: said him, why don't you go in the morning, John,

778
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 7: And that's when he said, now, I want to do

779
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 7: it now, wants fresh in my mind, which was odd

780
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 7: in himself, but he'd probably been near full well as

781
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 7: Nur Detective Sarah, and I don't know it would have

782
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 7: been just the constable on the desk which was Julie

783
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 7: Donovan at the time.

784
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: In episode six, you heard about some of the details

785
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: which were written down by the then Constable Julie Donovan

786
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: in the missing person report which she filled in that

787
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: night with information coming from John Winfield. I've been studying

788
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: a one page document typed in Ballener police station at

789
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: the time John Winfield reported his wife as missing. It

790
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: is an account of the purported facts and circumstances as

791
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: John explained them to the police officer who was on duty,

792
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: Julie Donovan. Officer Donovan's name and badge number are on

793
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: this document. Each relevant section has been filled with black type,

794
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: as you would expect. It's dated May twenty seven.

795
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 11: Person of interest was last seen at nine thirty pm

796
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 11: on sixteen May nineteen ninety three, after making several phone

797
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 11: calls from the above address after husband Jonathan was in Sydney.

798
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 11: Apparently the jew had been officially separated since twenty two

799
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 11: March nineteen ninety three. On the night of sixteen May,

800
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 11: the person of interest had a conversation with her ex

801
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 11: husband and informed him that she was leaving. She stated

802
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 11: that she was leaving and going for a couple of

803
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 11: weeks holiday.

804
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: In the first notification to police. John has asserted that

805
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: bromwin had said she was having a break of a fortnight,

806
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: whereas he told Broman's brother Andy and sister in law Michelle,

807
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: as well as Debbie and Murray that she was going

808
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: for a break of a few days.

809
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 7: I got a phone call from Julie Donovan asking me

810
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 7: to come in and have a chat because John give

811
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 7: him my name as somebody to talk to Janise Barnard

812
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 7: and I winning on the Saturday the following Saturday and

813
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 7: met with Julie Donovan, who was just a death comnstable.

814
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 7: And then when we started to give our version of

815
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 7: what we've been told from him, she went on says

816
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 7: nothing what is told me? This is going to have

817
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 7: to go upstairs. So it went up to the detectis.

818
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: Julie Donovan's name is featured in a number of the

819
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 1: entries in the police running sheets in nineteen ninety three

820
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: because of some of the early inquiries she made with

821
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: detectives Discan and Wayne Temby. Then, now let's return to

822
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: the police interview between Glen Taylor and John Winfield.

823
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 12: All right, and then I ran up all her stuff

824
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 12: that she left down at forty two Byron Street, and

825
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 12: I put it all in the garage and then maybe

826
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 12: maybe that was the next school holidays or something, or

827
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 12: so we went to Sydney again for two weeks, and

828
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 12: it was during that two weeks that she came back,

829
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 12: took clothes and left a Medicare check.

830
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 5: This is the second occasion. Yeah, it wasn't the first

831
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 5: time you come back that you saw the Medicare chip.

832
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 12: No, No, it's the second time. It's all in. It's

833
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 12: all in the report there.

834
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 5: Well, I'll certainly have a look at that.

835
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: It's hard to know now what report John Winfield is

836
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: referring to. If it is a reference to a comprehensive

837
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: report by the detective Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three,

838
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: we have not seen it. Glenn Taylor doesn't recall such

839
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: a document, but you have heard several references to a

840
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: Medicare check. Andy and Michelle Reid and Andy's sister Kim

841
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: Marshall are confident that the evidence around this Medicare check

842
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: is very important. John relies on this check to claim

843
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: that Bromman has come back to the house. It's another

844
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: claim of proof of life. Like the purported call to

845
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: the hairdressing salon. We're going to look at this as

846
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: well as accusations that someone has forged Bromwin's signature on

847
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 1: that check. You'll hear about it in the next episode.

848
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: John told the detective in nineteen ninety eight that after

849
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: putting the girls back into school, on his return to

850
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: Lenox in late May nineteen ninety three, he.

851
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 12: Went around to a few of her girlfriends, spoke to

852
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 12: them to find out as much as I could find out.

853
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 12: Reported her missing down here to the lady policewoman.

854
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 5: At that time when you reported her missing, Yeah, was

855
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 5: there any clothes of hers missing at that stage that

856
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 5: you noticed?

857
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,240
Speaker 12: Not that I noticed, Not that I noticed. And during

858
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 12: that time, I don't know what period of time, it

859
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 12: might have been three or four weeks, I don't know,

860
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 12: but this Shirley Taylor eventually gave me back everything that

861
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 12: was left down in the wrenched premises, right, you know,

862
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 12: there was you know, there was bags of clothes, and

863
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 12: there was pots and pans everything. She eventually gave them

864
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 12: to me, you know, and I put them all in

865
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 12: the garage, put them in a big pile. And then

866
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 12: shortly after, probably a couple of weeks later, I don't know.

867
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 12: I went to Sydney again for two weeks and it

868
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 12: was during that time that she came back. Left the

869
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 12: check on the kitchen island. It took a couple of

870
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 12: bags of clothes.

871
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 5: How did you know it was her?

872
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 12: Well, I don't That's what I said to Graham. I said,

873
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 12: I don't know it's her, But I mean, no one

874
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 12: knows it's her because no one saw her. All I

875
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 12: know is that the house wasn't broken into.

876
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 5: But the indication is the check was dated after the

877
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 5: sixteenth to May.

878
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: John didn't confirm the date of the check. He said

879
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: that the check was originally posted to Bromwin's temporary address

880
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: at the flat in Byron Street. That flat had lockable

881
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: mailboxes or the tenants before she disappeared, Bromwin hadn't returned

882
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: her keys to Shirley Taylor. John's suggestion to Detective Glenn

883
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: Taylor and They're no relation was that after disappearing, Bromwin

884
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: had gone back to her old flat, opened the mailbox,

885
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: seen the check, signed it, and brought it to the

886
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: house on Sandstone Crescent and left it on the table there.

887
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: According to John's version, she did all of this without

888
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: being seen by anyone and without leaving any note to

889
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 1: explain what was going on.

890
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 5: Did you feel it's strange act she hadn't made any

891
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 5: attempt to contact the children.

892
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 12: Oh, sure, you know, I mean it doesn't. I mean

893
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 12: I used to think about it all the time, But

894
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 12: I mean it's sort of like I said, I've sort

895
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 12: of moved on in life and I don't think about

896
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 12: it anymore.

897
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 5: To tell you the truth, you mea just some photo

898
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 5: aggress that might have been wishing.

899
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, family photos? Were they in frames or well? See,

900
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 12: we've got in the Loundes room. There's a big buffet right,

901
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 12: drawers on one side and three doors on the other

902
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 12: and four drawers, and that's where all the photos are kept,

903
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 12: you know.

904
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 5: And some of those were missing.

905
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, I couldn't tell you which photos.

906
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 5: Are you aware of a phone call allegedly made by

907
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 5: Bronwin to Jerdy's hairdressing seller.

908
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, I heard about that.

909
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 5: What did Jeredy have to say about that?

910
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 12: Well, Jodie didn't take the call. Some other girl took it.

911
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 12: Oh I can't. I can't remember her name. I never

912
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 12: spoke to the girl personally, Jody told me. I told Andrew.

913
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 12: And Andrew drove down to the hairdressing shop and spoke

914
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 12: to this girl personally, that's Andrew her brother Glenn Taylor.

915
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: Asked whether any other things from the house had gone missing.

916
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 5: No, you have never had any contact with your wife. No, No,

917
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 5: to your knowledge about it. Count that's your operator to

918
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 5: the bank where there was about one thousand or two

919
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 5: thousand of the bank has never been operated.

920
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 12: Well, last time I spoke to Graham, which was quite

921
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 12: a number of years ago, he said it hadn't been so,

922
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 12: but I haven't checked up. I've got authority to check

923
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 12: up on that, so they wouldn't tell me anyway, you know.

924
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 12: But well I spoke to Graham probably, I don't know

925
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 12: when it was. It was a few years ago now,

926
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 12: and he said it hadn't been touched.

927
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: John was then asked about something he had raised with

928
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: the detectives before the police interview had started. Before the

929
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: tape was rolling about a woman called Diane in Sydney.

930
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 12: Well, she rang me. I remember when it was because

931
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 12: I just got ross River fever, That's how I remember.

932
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 12: And it was January of ninety six and it was

933
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 12: in the mid afternoon and she rang me and I

934
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 12: was just she took me by surprise, you know, and

935
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 12: virtually said that she reckons that she saw her in Cronulla,

936
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 12: but she ignored her this.

937
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 5: Diane has alleged that she saw Brawman in Cronella in

938
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 5: around early nineteen ninety six.

939
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 12: Well, that's why I rang, like when you rang me,

940
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 12: yes today, I rang Diane to sort of clarify it,

941
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 12: you know. I said, listen, there's probably going to be

942
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 12: a guy called Glen Taylor give you a ring. And

943
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 12: I said to her, do you remember when it was?

944
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 12: And she said she thought it was in the winter.

945
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 12: And I said, why do you say that? And she said,

946
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 12: because I remember she was wearing warm sort of clothes.

947
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 12: I said, I'll tell Glen Taylor and you can sort

948
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 12: it out with him, you know.

949
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 5: Okay, to your knowledge, besides this possible signing by Diane,

950
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 5: has it ever been any other?

951
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 12: No, not that, not that I can remember. I mean,

952
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 12: there's been sort of Oh I can't remember. Every time

953
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 12: I heard a story. I used to ring Graham up

954
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 12: and tell him. But you know there's stories going around everywhere,

955
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 12: left right and center.

956
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: You know.

957
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 5: Have you fallen an opinion of what's happened to your boy? No?

958
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 12: I don't think about it. I think about it. I

959
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 12: just say that one day I hope she'll pop up

960
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 12: because her mother did the same thing and her mother

961
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 12: can you.

962
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 5: Tell us about that? I know you mentioned that her

963
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 5: mother suffered from schizophrenia, still does.

964
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently there.

965
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 5: Was a circumstance many years ago when Bromwin's mother went

966
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 5: missing as well.

967
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, we're missing at now. This is from Bromwin, and

968
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 12: I have clarified it with her brother. She's my mother

969
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 12: in law really, but I only met the woman once

970
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 12: in my life. You know, Bronwin and her didn't really

971
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 12: have a very close relationship. You know, they sort of

972
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 12: because I think of her mother's illness, you know, they

973
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 12: sort of didn't have much to do with each other.

974
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 12: So consequently, I've only met this woman once in my life,

975
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 12: and my two daughters, Crystal and Lauren, have never met

976
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 12: their grandmother, you know, because of that reason. I think

977
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 12: she sort of tried to sort of keep her away

978
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 12: from the kids, you know. But yeah, apparently when Andrew

979
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 12: Andrew was two and Brown was seven, she just left

980
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 12: the family home and ended up going to England. Came

981
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 12: back twelve years later with another child.

982
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 5: Do you know any information about a clearvoyant.

983
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's you know. Apparently she was seeing a clairvoyant Kriikey.

984
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 12: I can't remember the name, some guy that lives at

985
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 12: Sunrise Place at Lennox Head. She'd been seeing him for

986
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 12: quite a while, apparently, and at one stage she said

987
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 12: to one of her girlfriends that she thought this clairvoyan

988
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 12: was her father, you know, sort of like I said,

989
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 12: her father's already passed away years ago.

990
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 5: Were you aware she was seeing a clear voyant at

991
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,959
Speaker 5: the time? What did you find out?

992
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 12: Sorry? No, I only found out later on from her girlfriends.

993
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 12: You know. Apparently she used to pay this bloke thirty

994
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 12: dollars a pop.

995
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 1: The detective asked about the whereabouts of Jacko too. You

996
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: will recall that after Bromwin and John separated, she told

997
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: Gary Jackson that she was interested in him. He spoke

998
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: in episode five, we kiss and that's all we did.

999
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 14: We did.

1000
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 8: I loved her and it was awesome sexual because we

1001
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 8: didn't have sex.

1002
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 5: Who was bore them?

1003
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: Friendship?

1004
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 5: You know?

1005
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: But John was always ran Bush. We couldn't gold anywhere.

1006
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 5: John was out there sitting in his watching us. John Kilga.

1007
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 5: But they can't pour in the body.

1008
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: The police didn't do their job.

1009
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 12: No, never saw him again, never heard from him again.

1010
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 12: And the clairvoyant I went around it his place. I

1011
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 12: don't think I ever met him actually, and then I

1012
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 12: know Graham saw him a couple of times.

1013
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 5: I think, if necessary, would you give the police authority

1014
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 5: to examine your bank accounts in relation to your bank cards,

1015
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 5: just in relation to transaction reports?

1016
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, no problem.

1017
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 5: Have you got any other information that you can provide

1018
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 5: us with at this point in time? No, no, okay.

1019
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 5: You mentioned earlier in the interview that you were very

1020
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 5: concerned about the police approaching the media.

1021
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, yeah, very concerned.

1022
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:35,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, it's an opportunity.

1023
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: Now.

1024
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 5: You said that you don't want the police to provide

1025
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 5: details to the media about the disappearance of your wart.

1026
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 12: Yeah.

1027
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 5: Can you tell us now again about that?

1028
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 12: Well, like I said before, from my recollection, there's been

1029
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 12: probably five or six media attempts and they range from

1030
00:57:55,280 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 12: newspaper and photo and the Brisbane paper, radio casts in Sydney,

1031
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 12: newspaper article here locally, television here locally, and radio here locally.

1032
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 12: And when all that was going on, my kids went

1033
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 12: through a bad time at school, and I mean over

1034
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 12: the past five years, they've adjusted quite well, and I

1035
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 12: just want to keep it that way.

1036
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 5: You understand that the media is available too in trying

1037
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 5: to locate missing people.

1038
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 12: I realized that, but I mean, I guess after all

1039
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 12: avenues were exhausted and all of the investigations, I might

1040
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 12: reconsider it. But at this stage, Okay, do you agree

1041
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 12: I told you that I gave you a verbal assurance

1042
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 12: that there won't be be a new decision media outlets

1043
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 12: until we exhaust our current inquiries, and that entail speaking

1044
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 12: to all family members and anyone else. Yeah, and then

1045
00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 12: before I'm making you further decision, I would consult you

1046
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 12: your legal advisor. Yeah, you did say that, Yes, But

1047
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 12: like I said, it's I'm really dead, dead against any

1048
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 12: more media because of what the kids, you know, because

1049
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 12: the fact that there's been plenty of media I feel,

1050
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 12: and there's been no it hasn't been successful that. I mean,

1051
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 12: maybe she doesn't want to maybe she doesn't want to

1052
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:25,439
Speaker 12: come back.

1053
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 5: You know, do you think your wife might be deceased?

1054
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 12: No, No, no reason for me to think that way.

1055
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 5: So you think she's somewhere in this country under another identity.

1056
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 12: Well, well, I mean I'll tell you the truth. I

1057
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 12: reckon I could go anywhere I like and assume another identity.

1058
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 12: I don't see why anyone else can. I mean, it

1059
00:59:50,720 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 12: wouldn't be hard.

1060
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1061
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1062
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1063
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1064
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1065
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1066
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1067
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1068
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1069
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio

1070
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Wo and

1071
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted

1072
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can

1073
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: only do this kind of journalism with the support of

1074
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman for

1075
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents

1076
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: about this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet,

1077
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy,

1078
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com

1079
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe.