WEBVTT - #209: Inside Modern Warfare...What’s Really Going On with Ex-SAS Soldier Harry Moffitt 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:06.280 Anthony Moffatt or Harry as you've been known as Welcer 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:07.080 to Straight Talk mate. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.920 Thank you Mark. Yeah, so pleasure to be here. So I. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.000 Like, I always want to know how someone's name goes 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:18.360 from Anthony to Harry and your name, of course it Moffatt, 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.319 But like, tell me how that occurred? How did you 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:22.640 get that nickname? 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.800 Yeah, so Harry came from an old Rodney Rude character. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:31.080 Harry Muff was his name, and a lot of people 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:33.599 called me mof so it was Harry moff in the end, 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.640 and I don't think there was much of a likeness. 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:37.400 Wasn't that funny? 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:38.519 But who named you? 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.680 Bloke by the name of Ken Studeley on our essays 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:43.960 selection course he made up a poem and a rhyme 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:46.880 about everyone. He's one of the funniest guys who you'll meet. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.839 And yeah, he was one that gave me the night 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.559 the name in the part and stuck. It stuck. Yeah, 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.920 Well you resist these names and they stick hard. 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.440 I don't they totally. So that would have been in 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.520 like the eighties, nineteen ninety ninety nine. 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.240 Yeah, yeah, because I remember Rodney was he had a 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.720 Radis show on TV show. I also remember Kerry closing 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.400 his TV one of his programs now actually mid program 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:12.880 because carriage isn't like the way he went on. But 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:16.560 he was a funny barsad I remember him. And so 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.280 you're in the mid nineties. You were let's call it 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.679 trying out whatever the word is for essays. 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.960 Yeah, attempting essays selection, and it hasn't changed a great 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.520 deal as anywhere between five hundred and one thousand applicants, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.360 they pick one hundred and fifty odd and you go 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.280 to Perth and out of that we generally get twenty. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.600 I still return to the unit today to mentor the 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:44.960 new charges coming through, and the numbers haven't changed over time, 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:45.600 which is good. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:47.240 So let's say that's in the nineties. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:57.080 He obviously weren't born in nineteen eighty because you would 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.880 have been too young to be doing this. Were you 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.280 in the military. What's that process? Joining the military then 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.600 trying for essas? Were just decided one day at midday 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.840 I saw the SAS TV shows series on Channel seven 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.040 or Channel nine where it is, and I decided want 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.280 to become an essays soldier. I mean, how does that work? 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.640 I mean you become how do you become? Well, how 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.359 do you get the instinct and the ambition to join 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:19.960 the ESAs. 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:22.560 Yeah, it was a spark for me. I was going 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.600 to be running out of full Ford for Hawthorne football 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:26.600 team up until I was twelve years old. That was 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.079 my dream, or open the opening the batting for Australia. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.760 But I saw the images you may remember Princess Gate, 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.880 the Iranian embassy siege in the UK and nineteen eighty 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.320 and that flickered across a grainy black and white television 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.760 set and it just captured my imagination. And I read 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.560 a bit in those days. I was reading from an 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.280 early age, and I started reading some books about counter 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.880 terrorism and anti terrorism. These are that was the golden 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.080 era in the eighties, you know, the aircraft hijackings and 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.160 et cetera. So it was in the geist, if you like. 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:06.040 It was in the background, and I just thought, whatever 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.840 they're doing looks awesome and sexy, and they're all dressed 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.760 in black. And the more I dug, the more I 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:13.360 was intrigued and the more I wanted to do it. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.240 So I joined that the Army in nineteen eighty six 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:19.639 as a regular and when the SAS circus came to 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.480 town and beat the drums. I signed up and went 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.320 through started a selection process, pre selection into that one 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.120 hundred and fifty proper selection, and then you go into 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.240 a eighteen month odd reinforcement cycle, which is still part 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.520 of the selection. So it's probably all in a two 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.880 year process once you're in the system. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.080 I wouldn't mind just talking about it because I've always 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.720 been fascinated with the process of being selected. And I 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.600 guess you're also self selecting too, because correct you might 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:50.160 decide I'm going to drop that as well. It's not 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.320 just somebody saying you're the dude. You might say I'm 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.000 not the dude. I want to go back to that 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:55.440 in a second. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.280 But self selection is a really important part to grew insight. 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.040 I can imagine because it happens in business too, and 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.880 people think they're going to be an entrepreneur, but ultimately 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.920 you self select yourself and or the market will tell 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.800 you whether you can do it or not. But some 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.040 people fail to self select out when they should, when 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.440 they should be getting out. And it's not there's nothing 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.080 wrong with selecting to get out of these things. Self 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.440 selecting out, that's just what your instincts telling you. After 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.000 you've gone through the process. It's not instinct. With our process. 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.960 Process informs your instinct at the end of the day. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.039 But we'll come back to that in a second. Because 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.000 it seems like you have a view on it, a 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:35.240 strong view on it. But you were a like use, 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.840 I think you said, regular soldier, Yeah, what does that mean? 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:42.440 So you just join the ADF you going to any 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:47.839 number of cores infantry. I went into signals core. You 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:54.680 can be in catering, transport, artillery. And so the regular 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.800 I suppose process is the military picks you and where 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.560 you go, whereas the self selection part of the SAS 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:10.479 is entirely voluntary and you hand yourself over to them completely. 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.799 You don't really have much in the way of hands 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.240 on your own destiny, whereas in the regular army you 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:19.760 pick a call, you get put in, and then you 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.320 start a career, regular career. 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.440 In that way, it's pretty full on. If you go 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:29.359 back forty years, which we are to be, for a 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:37.960 young man to be reading articles about or reading articles 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.440 about war and what's going on in the various territories 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:45.440 war territories, it's pretty out there, pretty unusual. I would 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.640 have thought back then, for because I don't know anybody. 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.719 I had one mate, Andy Nolan. He became an SS guy. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.120 But that's the only person I know, And I don't 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.400 even know how he became one. But he's just weird 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:00.920 shit though. I can to you, Like when it used 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.920 to rain really heavy down in rose Bay, he used 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.040 to get into the after after having he's also an architect, 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.360 but after having left the sas, he used to get 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.239 in a like a one man canoe and get into 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:16.719 the canals when the heavy rain. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.880 Was just to test himself, is that right? 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.080 And go through weird tunnels you think, And like he 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:23.760 was the most unassuming person in the world that you 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.000 would never think he was a morement architect, but he 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.080 went through the whole process. Yeah, a massive risk taker. 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:31.920 And just every now and then when it's a heavy rain. 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:33.599 You know, I did see him this is this is 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.520 back in the eighties. He say, I've just been going 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.000 down the canals and lunatic. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:38.760 What's wrong with you? 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:39.320 Like what. 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.880 Is wide sort of like effectively rapids because it's filling 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:46.920 it with water down rose By and end up out 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.560 in the harbor somehow. But it's I don't know anyone 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.840 who thinks this way. Other than him, and now I'm 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:59.440 meeting somebody else. What is it that makes you a 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:02.479 or having such an inquiring mind that you start rooting 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.320 me this sort of stuff and then makes you when 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.400 you mentioned the circus comes to down, you know, the 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.480 sas recruitment comes to town. What was it that made 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:12.280 you feel as though, yeah, this is for me, I'm 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:13.080 going to have a crack at this. 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.360 Yeah, I've thought about this, and we've studied this in 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:21.160 fact in the unit. But I resolve my thinking to 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.760 it's an internal competitiveness, as an internal drive, which you 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:26.760 would be very familiar with. It happens in the business 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:28.600 what I see it in the business world in sports, 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.120 and I think when the essays in particular, it's it's 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.880 the opportunity to test yourself to see if you have 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.920 what it takes. And you're not impressing anyone at that 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.520 stage because no one really knows about it. It's very 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:48.120 done in house, very much. But it's that just that 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.360 drive to see you do I have what it takes? 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.680 You know? And the more you read you go you 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:57.240 think you question yourself, you know, is this would I 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.000 would this suit me? And that kind of in a 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.960 way attracts you even more some of the common characteristics 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:09.880 that I've observed over time, high tolerance to ambiguity, and 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:13.920 an appetite for risk taking. But it's generally quite measured. 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:18.640 They kept within the informed risk informed, and also a 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.080 competence level of risk within your own competence. You have 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.600 a good sound understanding of the scope and limit of 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:26.120 your scope and limitations. 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.960 So it's not much as so are you saying though 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:30.120 it's not reckless. 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:31.920 I would say that, although. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.400 In other words, it's not like And that's actually quite 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.080 an interesting point because I noticed in the briefing that 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:39.959 I got that, you know, a lot of the stuff 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.520 you talk about your book is the Fourth Pillar, your 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.640 most recent book, the Fourth Pillar. But one of the 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:47.480 things I noticed in the description of the book is 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.679 modern Stoicism. So you know, what's interesting to me anyway, 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.520 is that you just mentioned the word reckless. And we'll 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.319 come back to that. And one of the headings of 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:01.120 your book is Stoicism. And the Stoicism, of course, is 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:06.120 a you know, thousands of year old virtue, you know, 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.920 like going right back to the Stoics, and Aristotle talked 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:13.080 about stoicism, but you talked about recklessness and then there's 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.440 a an Aristotle himself talked about the difference between courage 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.240 and recklessness is somewhere in between the two, the gold, 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.000 the gold what he called gold mean, it's not in 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:25.920 the middle, it's somewhere else. 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.559 And for each individual it's different for everybody else. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.440 Someone might be closer to recklessness, and someone might be 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.839 closest closer to courage. But it's definitely not recklessness. In 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:42.439 other words, it's not and fearless is different to courage. 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:48.280 And do they in the when you're training for the sas, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:53.000 do they go through this virtue type deal to start 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.440 talking to you about these old school things that our 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.800 old school I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:04.080 but old school virtues. Do you talk about these things stoicism, recklessness, courage, 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:04.920 blah blah blah. 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:09.840 We do now and back then it really was a 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.880 matter of survival. And so if you were tough enough 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.680 to wait it out, to run it out, to just 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:21.880 persist and in a very pure stoic fashion, you know, 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.880 just to be able to persist and put up with it. 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.040 Stand your ground, stand your ground, don't complain. In fact, 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.960 no one's listening anyway. It's a nail feedback environment, which 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.880 is very, very harsh, and that's what makes something like 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:41.960 tolerance to ambiguity very such a valuable measuring or measure 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:43.719 of someone who's suitable. 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.280 For virtue words tolerance. 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.840 Yeah and so, yeah, and you do you need to survive. 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.640 But these days I actually go back and teach applied 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.280 ethics to our junior operators, not only for the moral 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.800 challenges that they will face in their careers, you know, physical, mental, 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:07.280 and moral in service. But back in those days, it 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.400 was how how how hard you could go for how long, 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.200 and what you could tolerate and put up with. So 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.240 there's there's two kind of sides to that coin. My 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.280 generation is the pure stoic, just put up with it 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.760 and keep persisting. These days we have a more virtue 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:30.160 approach to it, because we realize now that servicing this 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.160 this kind of these kinds of units has a moral 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.480 toll as well, and that gets mixed up with the 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.920 mental health toll that it takes on people, or. 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.960 With the final outcome, you know, like because you know, 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.360 you don't want people being all these things and then 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.040 walk out and their and their careers finished, and all 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:50.920 of a sudden there are a wreck. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.880 Yeah, but inside that's correct exactly. And I'm as a 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.040 psychologist now, I spend a fair bit of time in that. 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.880 But I guess at the start of an sas soldier's journey, 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.360 what we want is to give some guidance around what 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:10.000 is reckless and what is controlled and informed. And I 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.520 think we always want to select people who are probably 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.040 going to lean towards the reckless part because some of 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:20.080 the nature of the work is such that it's high risk, 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:25.760 high consequence, catastrophic consequences not only for ourselves but for 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.760 the people around us. So we need people to be 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.720 willing to step into that space without question, without being afraid, 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:38.679 a feared, or or without hesitation in most cases. So 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.480 we want people who are probably that side of it. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.640 But I think the golden mean of Aristotle, if you will, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.480 it's a navigable space. What we also want is people 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.839 to come back to a normal setting, a civilian setting, 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.240 and readjust those parameters as well, And that takes a 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.360 certain kind of person. We don't always get right, but 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.280 I think we're pretty bloody good at it. 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:08.400 So recently Donald Trump announced and Peter X announced that 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.439 they're going to change their Department of defense to the 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:17.920 Department of War and got all sorts of reactions around 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:23.400 the world. And initially I thought to myself that might 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.040 be good for recruitment, because recruitment is a big deal. 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.959 For we don't have national service, and so recruitment is 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.400 really a big deal important to have recruits. It's not 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.360 saying you the whole country to join the army or 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.320 whatever it is, whatever the military is, but you definitely 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.320 want you've got to recruit and or retain as well. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.120 And maybe that has a bit of marketing appeal to it. 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.719 But how does that fit into the narrative in a 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:55.240 modern day, modern day in terms of the types of 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:56.080 people might attract. 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.400 Do you think, yeah, I think it's it can be 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.079 a concern, and particularly in a nation like America where 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.880 they're in a marshall footing your martial kind of culture. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.320 Australia not so much. I'm not sure it would fly 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.319 well here. I get I get the idea we want 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.440 to be proactive, I guess, and maybe at war rather 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.480 than being defensive and on the back foot. And I 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.120 heard a bit more and I think I've punched out 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:25.320 a semi poem or something like that to Romance Donald 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:30.080 but I don't know that it would make a marked 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.480 difference on recruiting. That would be have to play out. 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.000 I think what's important to state is during times of peace, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:42.160 recruiting naturally goes down. You know, the boys that turn 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.480 out to want to go on the adventures and go 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:51.080 to war seem to spike when that's imminent or in 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.760 the in the news. I've had a few people say 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.160 or ask me the question. You know it means Australian 0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.680 Defense Force in trouble and recruitings down and all the 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.040 rest of But I'd say, look, you know, it's never 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.280 as bad as it seems, never as good as it seems, 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.360 and we probably need a more moderate conversation about it. 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.640 But it's a lot of money to sustain a standing 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.920 army that's not doing anything and not going anywhere. And 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.280 if the example I give is at the end of 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.240 World War One, a lot of the old guys were 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.120 saying because a lot of men we died in World 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.880 War One, and they were having a shot at the 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.760 next generation coming through, saying they're all soft and weak, 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.680 and you know they need to be trained up, and 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.240 things like scouts and outward bound and you know these 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.040 will will forced and all of these other things were 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.280 invented to make to toughen up the next generation. And 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:43.640 when the sixteen and eighteen year olds went off to 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.760 Kokoda Track, they did a pretty bloody good job. And 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.760 the young charges I see come into contact with regularly. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.360 I think Australia's in good stead. I don't think we 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.360 should panic. If we do need to raise an army, 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.400 we'll do so. Capability is still strong. This is the 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:01.960 time to spend a bit of money on the on 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.920 the hardware. And I think hardware being tech, yeah, tech 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.520 and hardware and some decent chips and things like that. Yeah, 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.720 But I think Australia, I think we should just calm 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:15.840 the farm a little bit. On that. I think Australian 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.000 the essence of the Australian soldiers still here and will 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:20.560 serve our country well come the time. 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.360 So do you think that essence that you're talking about 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.600 cuts across Australian Australian values? 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.640 Do you think? Because is that essence and Australian value. 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.720 And given our immigration and our change in the sort 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:41.160 of the makeup of our nation, and it's rapidly changing, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.480 probably faster now than has ever done. As past in 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:53.840 terms of cultural changes, sense of nationalism, perhaps religious relationships, 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.480 like at one stage pretty much a Christian nation. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:58.160 These days we're much more mixed. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.960 Then there's conflict overseas relative to some of the some 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.480 of the religions relative to other religions, and that's pretty 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.560 obviously we'll be talking about who might be talking. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.520 About we're thinking about at the moment. Do you think 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:11.560 these things will. 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:17.600 Ultimately create a bit of a chasm in our armed 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:18.880 forces military? 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.800 Yeah, potentially. I think there's parts of the military which 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:28.120 have been maybe distracted by what's going out on going 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:33.359 on out in society. So I give that. But to 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.960 feel and have a strong standing Australian Army, we need 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.600 about one hundred thousand people and I think there's well 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:45.200 inside that many to service our military. And we'll always 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:50.359 remember we're a small nation. Our GDP and defense is tiny. 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.520 It's probably the budget of the first Marine Division and 0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.480 we're now one of Americas if not biggest aircraft carrier 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.600 and the Marines increasing in numbers. So I think again 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.280 there are challenges, there's no doubt mark from a broader 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.239 society perspective, but I think I would like to see 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.000 the kind of margins and the fringes. Discussions that I 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.359 see in the veteran community go on just kind of 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.200 keep our power to dry. I think we should take 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.480 comfort that we will still be able to raise a 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.320 strong army that's that will do its job. 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:33.280 So do we need I mean, there's probably more war 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:34.160 strategy question. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.159 And you know, I don't know if I'm oversetting the 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.880 marqu here, but because you're you're on the ground guy. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:40.880 You're the guy who. 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.600 Goes and does stuff like it's more tactical than you 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.119 undertake a strategy outcome, but you're going to have to 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:47.760 make changes. 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.320 This is a strategic tool, a strategy. 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:52.359 Go in there, but you've got to make changes. 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:54.600 This didn't more get the way we wanted to work, 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.320 and we've got to do this tactically and then make 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:57.560 some quick change, a quick thinking. 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:02.360 And as a group, do you think that we need 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:05.840 as many. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:12.359 Regular soldiers, regular military people as we have done in 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.040 the past, Given I'm not too sa I'm not talking 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.040 about specialized people. I'm talking about regular guys and girls. 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.400 Do you think we need as many these days? Given 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.800 what's going on, giving the giving, given what we see 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.120 in Ukraine, what we're seeing in various other places what's 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:29.359 going on in the world at the moment as we 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.720 have needed in the past, in other words, drones and 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:32.480 all those other things. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.800 Is the World War potentially more technological? 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:42.960 Well, definitely got technological very quickly back in the US 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.400 Civil War, you know, So that doesn't change. I think 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:50.280 that's expected strategically no matter what conflict we're going to. 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.200 There's probably a good point to make here around the 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.320 type of war that we might be engaged in. The 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:01.600 wars that we've had recently and arguably since the end 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.120 of World War Two have been wars of choice. Really, 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.360 they haven't been wars that we've been invaded or we've 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.720 chosen to a company America or a coalition or UK 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.800 and they've been choice. They've been largely wars of choice. 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.159 So they have a different a different context and a 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.320 different requirement, especially when we're being asked for certain capabilities 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.640 to travel overseas. And then there's wars like Ukraine, where 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.200 that's not a war of choice for Ukraine, that's a 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.040 war that arrives on one's doorstep and you need to 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.160 do whatever you've got to do. And I don't think 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.359 it's controversial to say that they find themselves in a 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.640 pretty conventional situation and they need warm bodies. It kind 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.119 of comes down to that, Yeah, the technology matters, and 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:49.800 it's been amazing to watch that, hasn't it That the 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:54.320 adaptation and the little drone shops underground and whatnot have 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:58.040 been fascinated by that. That's just human adaptability. But at 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.600 the end of the day, they need warm bodies defending 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:07.000 a line dug in and it takes you back to well, 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.119 the US Civil War, you know, where they started digging 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.920 in and and that's kind of that was the precursor. 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:15.640 So it takes me back to Breaking Rand. The first 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:17.680 thing I think of, remember the Australian movie Breaking Around, 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.080 I do, yeah, And I think that was like in 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.920 the Boer War or something it was, and which is 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:27.359 like eighteen ninety or somewhere in center anyway, and we're 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:29.119 very famous movie for those people who haven't watched a 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:30.720 great movie, one of the great films. 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:31.359 At Australia. 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.600 Government was actually able to well southtrat Gun was able 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.080 to help one, but they were they were sitting in 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.600 trenches and in those days communication was done by a runner. 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.240 That's right. Now communication might be slightly different, but well, 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:51.639 interestingly in the Ukraine k phones so it's landline. 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.760 Yeah, yeah, it's like a box with the that's what 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:55.280 I call it. 0:21:55.680 --> 0:22:00.480 And they're targetable and they're being used because there's electronic 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.000 magnetic pulses and all this type of stuff being used 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:07.920 blanketing out communications conventional communicator. There's runners are being used still, 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.280