1 00:00:03,910 --> 00:00:06,570 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,650 --> 00:00:10,119 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Ever since Anthony Albanese won the election a week 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,969 Sean Aylmer: and a half ago, there's been an extreme focus on 4 00:00:12,970 --> 00:00:16,610 Sean Aylmer: Australia's foreign policy. The prime minister's first act was to 5 00:00:16,610 --> 00:00:19,590 Sean Aylmer: head to Tokyo for the Quad meeting with the US, India, 6 00:00:19,610 --> 00:00:22,470 Sean Aylmer: and Japan. Then foreign minister Penny Wong, jetted off to 7 00:00:22,470 --> 00:00:25,950 Sean Aylmer: Fiji, while Anthony Albanese revealed his next trip would be 8 00:00:25,950 --> 00:00:29,620 Sean Aylmer: to Indonesia. At the same time, China's foreign minister is 9 00:00:29,620 --> 00:00:33,180 Sean Aylmer: currently touring South Pacific nations in the wake of Beijing's 10 00:00:33,180 --> 00:00:36,670 Sean Aylmer: security partnership with the Solomon Islands. Professor James Curran is 11 00:00:36,670 --> 00:00:39,100 Sean Aylmer: a professor of modern history at the University of Sydney 12 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:42,239 Sean Aylmer: and columnist for the Australian Financial Review. James, welcome to 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:42,930 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 14 00:00:43,390 --> 00:00:44,470 James Curran: Thanks very much for having me. 15 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,140 Sean Aylmer: How usual is it for there to be such a 16 00:00:49,140 --> 00:00:52,920 Sean Aylmer: focus on international relations so soon after an election? 17 00:00:53,540 --> 00:00:57,800 James Curran: Pretty unusual, I think. I don't think there is a precedent, in fact, for 18 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,920 James Curran: a prime minister being sworn in on the same day 19 00:01:02,050 --> 00:01:06,260 James Curran: as then taking off to a really important and significant 20 00:01:06,260 --> 00:01:10,100 James Curran: international gathering. So taking the oath of office and then, 21 00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:14,140 James Curran: within hours, being on an airplane flying to Tokyo for 22 00:01:14,140 --> 00:01:17,590 James Curran: a Quad leaders meeting just shows you, I think, the 23 00:01:17,590 --> 00:01:21,430 James Curran: priority that the new government puts on foreign policy. I don't 24 00:01:21,430 --> 00:01:23,390 James Curran: think they had any option in that regard, this meeting had 25 00:01:23,580 --> 00:01:26,360 James Curran: been set for some time, but I think it nevertheless 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,050 James Curran: showed that they wanted to get off on a very 27 00:01:28,050 --> 00:01:31,369 James Curran: strong foot on this question. Showing continuity where they could, 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,330 James Curran: but also showing some differences as they did. 29 00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:39,030 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, watching that first week, Anthony Albanese, particularly with 30 00:01:39,030 --> 00:01:43,530 Sean Aylmer: Joe Biden, also Penny Wong in Fiji, how do you 31 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:45,840 Sean Aylmer: think they performed? Let's start with the Quad meeting. How do 32 00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:48,130 Sean Aylmer: you think Albanese... How do you rate his appearance at 33 00:01:48,130 --> 00:01:48,570 Sean Aylmer: the Quad? 34 00:01:48,910 --> 00:01:51,050 James Curran: Look, I think he ticked all the boxes. I don't 35 00:01:51,050 --> 00:01:53,190 James Curran: think he could have done anything different. He established very 36 00:01:53,190 --> 00:01:56,450 James Curran: good relationships with the American president and with the other 37 00:01:56,450 --> 00:01:59,410 James Curran: leaders from Japan, and indeed India, who I think were 38 00:01:59,410 --> 00:02:02,670 James Curran: all quite appreciative, quite amazed really, that you could have 39 00:02:02,670 --> 00:02:05,380 James Curran: a leader sworn in and then attend this meeting so 40 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:09,030 James Curran: quickly. I think they appreciated the fact that Albanese was 41 00:02:09,030 --> 00:02:12,880 James Curran: signaling a very strong commitment to the Quadrilateral grouping. We 42 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,579 James Curran: all know that even if they don't talk about this 43 00:02:15,580 --> 00:02:19,350 James Curran: meeting being principally about China, that it certainly is. It 44 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:23,489 James Curran: has taken on other tasks in relation to vaccines and 45 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:25,950 James Curran: other issues. But in essence, they are all there to 46 00:02:25,950 --> 00:02:30,639 James Curran: swap notes about China and China's new assertion. And some 47 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,889 James Curran: of them are more obvious about that than others. The 48 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,820 James Curran: American president said that it is about autocracies versus democracies. 49 00:02:36,820 --> 00:02:40,400 James Curran: But Albanese, I think performed very well, very safe, very 50 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,500 James Curran: sure, very certain in everything that he did. I think 51 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:46,019 James Curran: they'd had the benefit of preparing for this for some 52 00:02:46,020 --> 00:02:49,359 James Curran: time. They, Labor Party, had been involved in an earlier 53 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,829 James Curran: Quad meeting earlier this year in February in Melbourne when 54 00:02:52,830 --> 00:02:56,080 James Curran: the foreign ministers gathered. So Albanese, I think made it 55 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,050 James Curran: very clear too, that his priority would be climate action, 56 00:02:59,450 --> 00:03:03,549 James Curran: climate change policy, but stressing, I think, a certain agreement 57 00:03:03,550 --> 00:03:06,359 James Curran: as well on the other objectives. There's no question that 58 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,870 James Curran: Labor, I think, ticked all the boxes on that visit. 59 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,120 Sean Aylmer: What about Penny Wong and her trip to Fiji? 60 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,050 James Curran: Even more crucial, I think, as well. Just in the 61 00:03:15,050 --> 00:03:19,520 James Curran: sense that there is so much Chinese diplomatic pushing going 62 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,290 James Curran: on in the region at the moment. As we know, her 63 00:03:21,290 --> 00:03:24,669 James Curran: counterpart from Beijing, Wang Yi, is on a 10 or 64 00:03:24,669 --> 00:03:28,040 James Curran: 11 nation stop tour through the Pacific in terms of 65 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,400 James Curran: trying to sign up Pacific countries to a, some kind 66 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,690 James Curran: of security agreement. I thought Penny Wong's performance was exactly 67 00:03:36,690 --> 00:03:38,980 James Curran: the right kind of tone that needed to be brought. 68 00:03:39,260 --> 00:03:41,960 James Curran: We do know that previous governments were aware of Chinese 69 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,810 James Curran: activity and Chinese influence building in the Pacific, but their 70 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:48,870 James Curran: response was shown to be inadequate, particularly during the election 71 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:51,290 James Curran: campaign, of course, when we saw the signing of security 72 00:03:51,290 --> 00:03:56,400 James Curran: agreement between Beijing and Honiara in the Solomon Islands. There've 73 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,200 James Curran: been a lot of talk about bringing diplomacy back, bringing 74 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,580 James Curran: statecraft back, bringing a new tone to Australia's engagement with 75 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:05,470 James Curran: the world. And there's no question that when Penny Wong 76 00:04:05,510 --> 00:04:09,600 James Curran: gets up in Suva in Fiji and talks about the Pacific 77 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,170 James Curran: family, and talks about not having strings attached to Australian 78 00:04:14,170 --> 00:04:16,680 James Curran: support, but I think even more significantly, it was the 79 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,960 James Curran: framework, Sean. She talked about the fact that Australia was 80 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,610 James Curran: going to articulate its position on the world stage through 81 00:04:24,610 --> 00:04:27,330 James Curran: the prism of just the very basic fact that it would have 82 00:04:27,420 --> 00:04:30,739 James Curran: a First Nation's foreign policy, that it would celebrate the 83 00:04:30,740 --> 00:04:35,480 James Curran: 270 ancestries that make up the Australian population. That these 84 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,229 James Curran: two kind of core elements of modern Australia are going 85 00:04:38,230 --> 00:04:41,510 James Curran: to be part of Australia's international personality. That there'll be 86 00:04:41,510 --> 00:04:44,680 James Curran: a real emphasis on that. I think big ticks for 87 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,330 James Curran: this new government within the first week, they haven't completely 88 00:04:48,610 --> 00:04:52,089 James Curran: and nor can they reset some of the more difficult 89 00:04:52,330 --> 00:04:55,589 James Curran: problems in Australian foreign policy, like that relationship with China, 90 00:04:55,589 --> 00:04:58,990 James Curran: but they've already shown their preparedness to put a different 91 00:04:58,990 --> 00:05:00,310 James Curran: framework around it. 92 00:05:00,690 --> 00:05:03,640 Sean Aylmer: Well, how important was the fact that Chinese Premier Li 93 00:05:04,290 --> 00:05:08,130 Sean Aylmer: Keqiang, got in touch with Anthony Albanese to congratulate him? 94 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:10,980 Sean Aylmer: That was the first time in a couple of years, 95 00:05:10,980 --> 00:05:16,349 Sean Aylmer: we've had such high level discussions between, discussions, probably messages 96 00:05:16,350 --> 00:05:18,100 Sean Aylmer: between two leaders. Is that fair? 97 00:05:18,770 --> 00:05:22,240 James Curran: Yes, that's correct. Really, it's the first time since 2018 98 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,810 James Curran: that there has been any kind of high level contact 99 00:05:25,930 --> 00:05:29,100 James Curran: of that kind. Now two things worth bearing in mind 100 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:32,270 James Curran: here, I think, Sean, are these: Firstly, this is in 101 00:05:32,270 --> 00:05:36,210 James Curran: essence normal diplomatic protocol, right? For a foreign government to 102 00:05:36,210 --> 00:05:40,770 James Curran: congratulate the leader of the winning party at a federal 103 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,410 James Curran: election. Secondly, we need to remember too that the same 104 00:05:45,410 --> 00:05:48,450 James Curran: message was... well, in fact, it was a message in 105 00:05:48,460 --> 00:05:54,360 James Curran: 2019, well, 2018, I'm sorry, that's right... after then Prime 106 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,480 James Curran: Minister Scott Morrison met with Li Keqiang at a summit 107 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,500 James Curran: in the region. But Li Keqiang said he hoped that 108 00:06:00,740 --> 00:06:04,630 James Curran: Scott Morrison would turn the relationship around after some of 109 00:06:04,630 --> 00:06:09,029 James Curran: the tensions in the Turnbull years. So look, the timing 110 00:06:09,029 --> 00:06:12,650 James Curran: of it, as I say, is standard diplomatic protocol, but 111 00:06:12,650 --> 00:06:14,969 James Curran: there's a context we can't ignore. And that's the fact 112 00:06:14,970 --> 00:06:18,970 James Curran: that China still has its tariff boot on the Australian 113 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:21,460 James Curran: neck. So it makes it very difficult for Australia to 114 00:06:21,460 --> 00:06:25,630 James Curran: respond as enthusiastically as China might hope. But at the 115 00:06:25,630 --> 00:06:29,179 James Curran: very least, we know that both the prime minister and 116 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:33,860 James Curran: the foreign minister have talked about the need for engagement 117 00:06:33,860 --> 00:06:36,770 James Curran: at some point. Now, this will take time. There needs 118 00:06:36,770 --> 00:06:39,570 James Curran: to be reciprocity. There needs to be some signals from 119 00:06:39,570 --> 00:06:42,440 James Curran: Beijing, as well as from Canberra, about how they want 120 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,760 James Curran: to take this forward. But at the very least, look, 121 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,870 James Curran: it's a positive sign, but it's not an easy message 122 00:06:47,870 --> 00:06:50,900 James Curran: for the Australian government to get too excited about, as 123 00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:54,060 James Curran: I say, when there's still economic coercion taking place. And 124 00:06:54,060 --> 00:06:56,900 James Curran: when we've got two Australian citizens that are detained in 125 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:59,210 James Curran: Beijing on some murky charges. 126 00:06:59,630 --> 00:07:01,620 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, James, we'll be back in a minute. 127 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,600 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is James Curran, professor of modern 128 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,100 Sean Aylmer: history at the University of Sydney. So where does this, 129 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:17,140 Sean Aylmer: how does this evolve? Where do we end up, James, 130 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,380 Sean Aylmer: in terms of our relationship with China? I appreciate it 131 00:07:20,380 --> 00:07:24,060 Sean Aylmer: will take time, but it's really hard for the layperson 132 00:07:24,290 --> 00:07:27,489 Sean Aylmer: like me to kind of see how the thaw begins even. 133 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,140 James Curran: Yes, I think it is going to take time. I think it's going to be very difficult for 134 00:07:32,140 --> 00:07:35,560 James Curran: the Australian government to move while those tariffs are still 135 00:07:35,630 --> 00:07:39,970 James Curran: on Australian exports, while there's still the coercion going on. 136 00:07:40,830 --> 00:07:44,560 James Curran: That really doesn't give a new government much flexibility at 137 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,120 James Curran: all. Now, there's lots of other stuff that can be 138 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,130 James Curran: done in terms of thinking a bit more conceptually about 139 00:07:50,230 --> 00:07:53,980 James Curran: how all the various parts of the Australia- China relationship 140 00:07:53,980 --> 00:07:58,080 James Curran: fit together. And I've made that argument. Now, that is 141 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,680 James Curran: not going to be the silver bullet, but what we 142 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,090 James Curran: have seen over the last four years, and of course 143 00:08:04,090 --> 00:08:09,070 James Curran: notwithstanding the legitimate worries that arise from China's new assertiveness, 144 00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:13,000 James Curran: what we have seen is some, I think, pretty guileless 145 00:08:13,070 --> 00:08:16,510 James Curran: foreign policy from the previous government in terms of beating 146 00:08:16,510 --> 00:08:19,320 James Curran: the drums of war, in terms of picking fights where 147 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,650 James Curran: they weren't necessary. And in terms, especially, I think, of 148 00:08:23,650 --> 00:08:27,240 James Curran: not doing enough to reassure the Chinese- Australian community, that 149 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,350 James Curran: their contribution to the national fabric, and to Australia's history, and 150 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:35,090 James Curran: its cohesion as a community, that's got to be more, 151 00:08:35,090 --> 00:08:37,949 James Curran: I think, valued. And I don't have any doubts that 152 00:08:37,950 --> 00:08:41,460 James Curran: this new government will put its shoulder to that wheel. 153 00:08:41,830 --> 00:08:45,179 James Curran: You can already tell Senator Wong has started that process. 154 00:08:45,179 --> 00:08:48,100 James Curran: So there's lots that can be done at the ground 155 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:50,960 James Curran: level, at the community level. We've got the 50th anniversary 156 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,940 James Curran: of the diplomatic relationship coming up in December of this 157 00:08:53,940 --> 00:08:57,480 James Curran: year. That is surely an opportunity to at least look 158 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,500 James Curran: at some of the positive dimensions of this relationship, over 159 00:09:00,510 --> 00:09:03,179 James Curran: the last five decades. I think it's going to be 160 00:09:03,179 --> 00:09:07,040 James Curran: incremental. And I think it's going to go a couple 161 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,470 James Curran: of steps forward, sometimes, maybe some back. We are dealing 162 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:12,860 James Curran: with a different China. The old model of engagement is 163 00:09:12,860 --> 00:09:15,920 James Curran: gone. So we've got to learn to manage this relationship, 164 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,939 James Curran: protect Australian interests, but I think, really think it through 165 00:09:20,390 --> 00:09:24,599 James Curran: before leaping onto the beating of drums, which tended to be 166 00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:26,840 James Curran: the last government's default position. 167 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,059 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And overlaying this of course is China's role in 168 00:09:30,059 --> 00:09:32,730 Sean Aylmer: the region. Obviously, the deal with the Solomon Islands being 169 00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:35,820 Sean Aylmer: the standout example of that, but the current tour of 170 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:38,370 Sean Aylmer: the region, I mean that's difficult to manage as well. 171 00:09:38,650 --> 00:09:41,350 James Curran: Yeah, it certainly is. It certainly is. I mean, the 172 00:09:41,350 --> 00:09:44,579 James Curran: dominant theme of Australian foreign policy since the late 19th century 173 00:09:44,580 --> 00:09:46,610 James Curran: at least, has been the search for security in the 174 00:09:46,610 --> 00:09:50,719 James Curran: Pacific. And so many governments have been worried, whether or 175 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,030 James Curran: not it be Japan during the First World War, getting 176 00:09:53,030 --> 00:09:56,559 James Curran: hold of islands in the North Pacific, that the Germans 177 00:09:56,750 --> 00:09:59,630 James Curran: had had to give up and using them as launchpads 178 00:09:59,630 --> 00:10:04,410 James Curran: potentially of strategic intimidation. So it is of deep concern. 179 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,240 James Curran: We know that Obama was told by Xi Jinping in 180 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,950 James Curran: 2015 in Washington, that China did not intend to militarize 181 00:10:12,950 --> 00:10:16,290 James Curran: the rocky outcrops or shoals or reefs that it was 182 00:10:16,290 --> 00:10:19,489 James Curran: taking possession of in the South China Sea. They've said 183 00:10:19,490 --> 00:10:21,670 James Curran: that the Solomon Islands won't be a military base, and 184 00:10:21,670 --> 00:10:25,350 James Curran: so has the Prime Minister of the Solomon Islands, but there's absolutely 185 00:10:25,350 --> 00:10:28,160 James Curran: no question that we may well now be seeing a 186 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,790 James Curran: new pattern where China believes that, following the investments that 187 00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:35,330 James Curran: it makes in the region, it therefore has the right 188 00:10:35,330 --> 00:10:39,420 James Curran: to protect those investments with police and to protect its 189 00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:43,650 James Curran: diaspora communities. And it's not an altogether... It's not too 190 00:10:43,650 --> 00:10:47,870 James Curran: far from that towards sort of seeing these places become 191 00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:51,880 James Curran: part of a Chinese strategic network in the region that 192 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,440 James Curran: will trouble and complicate, not only Australia's strategic position, but 193 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,410 James Curran: of course the ability of the United States as well 194 00:10:59,410 --> 00:11:02,819 James Curran: to project power in the Western Pacific. So there's lots 195 00:11:02,820 --> 00:11:05,770 James Curran: of concerns there. It's a huge, huge agenda for the 196 00:11:05,770 --> 00:11:06,520 James Curran: new government to face. 197 00:11:07,690 --> 00:11:09,699 Sean Aylmer: And just before we finish up, James, I do want 198 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:11,380 Sean Aylmer: to talk about the US just a little bit and 199 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:15,730 Sean Aylmer: Australia's engagement with the US, obviously, incredibly close allies for 200 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:20,630 Sean Aylmer: many, many decades, but that isn't always the best place 201 00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:22,290 Sean Aylmer: to be when you sit in the middle of Asia 202 00:11:22,290 --> 00:11:23,120 Sean Aylmer: as a country either. 203 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,860 James Curran: No, I mean, look, I think we really have no 204 00:11:25,860 --> 00:11:28,570 James Curran: option but to go with the United States. There's no 205 00:11:28,730 --> 00:11:30,920 James Curran: doubt about that. But that doesn't mean that we're always 206 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,179 James Curran: going to be in lockstep with them on every aspect 207 00:11:33,179 --> 00:11:36,250 James Curran: of their policy. Now there is going to be a 208 00:11:36,250 --> 00:11:38,670 James Curran: lot of pressure. There already is a lot of pressure 209 00:11:38,670 --> 00:11:42,180 James Curran: in Washington from both sides of American politics for a 210 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,870 James Curran: much stronger tone on China. And we've already seen President 211 00:11:45,870 --> 00:11:49,270 James Curran: Biden chip away at the whole policy of strategic ambiguity 212 00:11:49,270 --> 00:11:53,300 James Curran: on Taiwan, where traditionally the Americans have left it vague 213 00:11:53,309 --> 00:11:55,260 James Curran: or hypothetical as to whether or not they'd come to 214 00:11:55,260 --> 00:11:58,850 James Curran: Taiwan's defense in the event of an attack from China. 215 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,510 James Curran: There are going to be some more forward leaning postures, I 216 00:12:02,510 --> 00:12:05,729 James Curran: think, by Washington, which may well make, not only Australia, 217 00:12:05,730 --> 00:12:08,820 James Curran: but some of America's other allies, a little bit nervous. 218 00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:12,900 James Curran: So from time to time, whilst obviously, I think Australia 219 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:16,020 James Curran: has done so much obviously to invest in the alliance, 220 00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:18,140 James Curran: there's not much more Australia could do to prove its 221 00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:20,829 James Curran: alliance loyalty. Both in the past and in terms of 222 00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:23,350 James Curran: what it's doing now. But from time to time, I 223 00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:26,900 James Curran: think, Sean, a good ally is one that offers advice, 224 00:12:26,950 --> 00:12:30,210 James Curran: council, and that sometimes disagrees with Washington where our interests 225 00:12:30,210 --> 00:12:33,670 James Curran: aren't necessarily a hundred percent aligned. Now, some people might say, " 226 00:12:33,950 --> 00:12:35,929 James Curran: Well, that's crazy. We're always going to be a hundred 227 00:12:35,929 --> 00:12:38,650 James Curran: percent aligned on the threats that are facing this region." 228 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,559 James Curran: Not necessarily. And so I think we've got to have 229 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,940 James Curran: the courage at times to have those disagreements in private. 230 00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:47,699 James Curran: You don't need to wash the dirty laundry in public, 231 00:12:48,010 --> 00:12:50,350 James Curran: but that is what... that's the kind of ally that 232 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:53,760 James Curran: Washington really needs. It doesn't need an ally patting it 233 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,179 James Curran: on the back and pushing it into potentially problematic policy responses. 234 00:12:58,860 --> 00:13:00,730 Sean Aylmer: James, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 235 00:13:01,030 --> 00:13:01,670 James Curran: My pleasure. 236 00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:04,300 Sean Aylmer: That was James Curran, professor of modern history at the 237 00:13:04,300 --> 00:13:06,820 Sean Aylmer: University of Sydney. James also has a book coming out. 238 00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:09,980 Sean Aylmer: It's due for release in August. Australia's China Odyssey - From 239 00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:13,270 Sean Aylmer: Euphoria to Fear. This is the Fear and Greed daily 240 00:13:13,270 --> 00:13:15,679 Sean Aylmer: interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of 241 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,000 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean 242 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,329 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Enjoy your day.