Speaker 1: This was a very cold blooded, evil fishing expedition where
Speaker 1: they actually abducted young girls. These cottages made of stone
Speaker 1: and farmhouses and so on, which have provided a sort
Speaker 1: of spooky landscape of very cheap housing for the sort
Speaker 1: of people who want to go and hang out in
Speaker 1: the back of beyond. It does attract the sort of
Speaker 1: people that you don't want as neighbors.
Speaker 2: This is life and crimes. This is not Andrew Rule.
Speaker 2: Andrew Rule, however, is in the studio and he is
Speaker 2: here to answer questions, your questions. I should also state
Speaker 2: my name's Johnny Burton. I am the producer of the
Speaker 2: show Andrew.
Speaker 1: Yes, John.
Speaker 2: Questions for this Q and A edition will start off
Speaker 2: with a question from Will, and Will refers to a
Speaker 2: show we did not too long ago about guns in
Speaker 2: Victoria perhaps finding their way from police custody back into
Speaker 2: the streets. And we'll ask is there any political or
Speaker 2: police will to fix the huge storage and system failures
Speaker 2: within the sort of gun storage elements of Victoria police.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good question, Will. I bet they wish
Speaker 1: they could, because I know that when I approached the
Speaker 1: police force about this and spoke to a high ranking
Speaker 1: sort of media relations person. I could actually hear her
Speaker 1: eyes rolling, because clearly this is a corner of the
Speaker 1: police force that is a problem child for them. It's backward,
Speaker 1: it's recalcitrant, it's a little bit rusty, and that needs lubrication,
Speaker 1: and it possibly needs a bit of new personnel involved.
Speaker 1: Maybe I suspect that one of the problems is that
Speaker 1: they will have various public servants that are entrenched in
Speaker 1: the place, and that it's a branch of the public
Speaker 1: service and doesn't run fish and that would be one
Speaker 1: of its major problems. I know from personal experience that
Speaker 1: someone close to me had a shotgun registered they thought
Speaker 1: back in May, May, June something like that, and the
Speaker 1: certificate for that firearm has only just come through in
Speaker 1: the last fortnight. So there is some massive flag time
Speaker 1: associated with registering guns in Victoria, which tells you something.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter in itself, perhaps, but it tells you
Speaker 1: something about how slowly the system works and how clogged
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: Now as we're recording this, the police are not happy
Speaker 2: about their relations with the government and perhaps pay and
Speaker 2: perhaps conditions. Would this be potentially a pain conditions thing,
Speaker 2: or is there something else sort of going on? In
Speaker 2: this area.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think this is particularly a paying conditions thing.
Speaker 1: I think this is just a sleepy of policing that's
Speaker 1: been ignored for a long time because it's a sleepy
Speaker 1: backwater of policing, and there's probably not much more to
Speaker 1: it than that, I hope.
Speaker 2: Now a question from Heather, and Heather asks about Philip Island,
Speaker 2: where we've seen a fair bit of crime on and
Speaker 2: off over the journey, and she's just wondering if you
Speaker 2: looked at the best Barnard murder at real on Philip Island.
Speaker 2: Apparently lots of unanswered questions, and she was wondering if
Speaker 2: you could answer any of them.
Speaker 1: Police, do you ask? Not sure that I can answer
Speaker 1: the unanswered ones, because it's a well plowed paddock that case.
Speaker 1: There's been at least one book written about it. Funnily enough,
Speaker 1: I used to attend a suburban doctor in Melbourne at
Speaker 1: one stage in I think East Q or somewhere, and
Speaker 1: I recognized his name and I once said, oh, you
Speaker 1: were the doctor, dammit, Philip Island. That was the doctor
Speaker 1: for I think the murdered girl or and he looked
Speaker 1: very stricken and we didn't talk about it. Anymore. It's
Speaker 1: a case that involved a young woman, a lawyer's daughter,
Speaker 1: having an affair with a married man. And then I
Speaker 1: think it's a classic sort of love triangle situation where
Speaker 1: the spurned wife has taken her own action, and then
Speaker 1: I think probably jumped off the bridge, and the mystery
Speaker 1: of her disappearance has added a mysterious element to the
Speaker 1: whole thing, and people she still out there? Did somebody
Speaker 1: kill her? All those things, I suspect there's no more
Speaker 1: or less to it than the heartbroken, grieving, upset, angry wife,
Speaker 1: wronged wife in this case has killed her rival and then,
Speaker 1: appalled at what she's done, has jumped off some point
Speaker 1: down there where there's fast flowing water, and she's been
Speaker 1: taken out to see where there are plenty of sharks,
Speaker 1: and so it would make sense in many cases that
Speaker 1: the body's never found.
Speaker 2: Tony Wrights love the podcast. He says, your great storyteller,
Speaker 2: and one particular episode made him angry. This story of
Speaker 2: Donner and we called the episode a harrowing crime and
Speaker 2: quest for Justice was about the rapes near Festival Hall.
Speaker 2: As it was, He suggests that the crime is in
Speaker 2: many ways worse than murder. And wished there was something
Speaker 2: that could be done to advance the investigation. He has
Speaker 2: some questions. Do you think that this gang attacked other
Speaker 2: victims without doubt?
Speaker 1: This was highly organized. They were young men, but they
Speaker 1: weren't children. They weren't sixteen year olds. Some of them
Speaker 1: were probably in their early twenties, up to maybe twenty five.
Speaker 1: One of them, for instance, had an almost new hot Truan,
Speaker 1: a car worth plenty of money. Was a bright red, shiny,
Speaker 1: valuable car. These were young guys that were working, that
Speaker 1: knew what they were doing, and they were fairly organized
Speaker 1: because they had one young blog acting as bait. He
Speaker 1: would go in and chat to girls at festival hall,
Speaker 1: at concerts and things, chat to teenage girls and persuade
Speaker 1: him that, you know, they should get a phone number
Speaker 1: from him, chat to him, et cetera, et cetera, and
Speaker 1: then you know, let's go to a party together. And
Speaker 1: they would trust this kid who was apparently looked trustworthy
Speaker 1: and sounded trustworthy, and he would persuade him to hop
Speaker 1: in the car with the other guys. This was a
Speaker 1: very cold blooded, evil fishing expedition where they actually abducted
Speaker 1: young girls. They've got an they had an mo and
Speaker 1: they followed it and there is no doubt they did
Speaker 1: it more than this occasion. On this occasion alone, those
Speaker 1: two girls, those two teenage girls, young girls were abducted,
Speaker 1: essentially taken out to be on Williamstown and they were
Speaker 1: raped by multiple men. They were then taken to the
Speaker 1: Marravanong River on the Footscraate side, unraped by some other
Speaker 1: young men, and then they were taken to Kensington or
Speaker 1: North Melbourne unraped by a third group. They endured three
Speaker 1: pack rapes in one afternoon and they feared that it
Speaker 1: would end with them being murdered. It is as a listener,
Speaker 1: Tony says, a crime in some respects as bad.
Speaker 2: As murder, and he also was wondering at this one part.
Speaker 2: You recalled in the episode that they were saying that
Speaker 2: they were doing a deal. Now that was a deal
Speaker 2: for the girls.
Speaker 1: I think so they were doing a deal in the
Speaker 1: sense of I don't know if money change hands, but
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, they were trading in these girls,
Speaker 1: training them. We've got two. We've got two girls here.
Speaker 2: And Tony also asks do you think that perhaps these
Speaker 2: perpetrators are still alive and do you think they'll ever
Speaker 2: be identified.
Speaker 1: I did some work on it, and a certain policeman
Speaker 1: did some work on it, and there's no doubt that
Speaker 1: some of them are still alive. I don't know who
Speaker 1: they all are. I've got a rough idea about some.
Speaker 1: I think one ended up and m Robert prolific arm
Speaker 1: rubber and I think he ended up dead. Another one
Speaker 1: ended up dead. They were guys, the core group I think,
Speaker 1: had been in to run a boys home and they tended.
Speaker 1: You know, several of those guys drifted into adult crime
Speaker 1: and lead hard lives and they haven't all survived, which
Speaker 1: is a good thing.
Speaker 2: So this time around, listeners, sadly we don't have any
Speaker 2: questions about mister Crawl. What we do have quite a
Speaker 2: few of recommendations for perhaps shows that we might do
Speaker 2: at a later date, but I thought we might turn
Speaker 2: a few of them into questions. Scott says, I'm hoping
Speaker 2: we could do an episode on the scamming epidemic that
Speaker 2: is swindling hard earned money out of vulnerable Australians at
Speaker 2: a rate never seen before, makes the drug market look
Speaker 2: like small change. And Scott is so angry that the
Speaker 2: government is seemingly not doing a lot about this issue
Speaker 2: affecting everyday Australians.
Speaker 1: That's a good point, Scott. When you think about it,
Speaker 1: all of us every week see some evidence of scamming.
Speaker 1: You know, their phones suddenly beep up with some ridiculous
Speaker 1: message from somewhere mad and bad. We know that it's
Speaker 1: some sort of towing the water attempted scamming. Every elderly relative,
Speaker 1: or neighbor or friend, whatever you know, has either been scammed,
Speaker 1: or thinks they might have been scammed, or they're scared
Speaker 1: of being scammed. It does cause a lot of problems
Speaker 1: for a lot of people every day, and indeed, for normal,
Speaker 1: every day Australian it might be a bigger problem than
Speaker 1: the drug trade and certainly the illegal tobacco trade. For
Speaker 1: the rest of us, this is the offense that affects
Speaker 1: our daily lives and our daily peace of mind. I
Speaker 1: agree with you, Scott. Let's do something about it now.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that that listener asks about scams, because if
Speaker 2: you keep an eye on the Life and Crimes feed
Speaker 2: in the next few weeks you'll probably see something about it. However, Yeah,
Speaker 2: up to date we haven't actually looked too much at scams. However,
Speaker 2: and this is probably a little bit inside baseball. But
Speaker 2: we have done an episode that is not scammy, but
Speaker 2: it's sort of financial malfeasance adjacent, and that was when
Speaker 2: we did an episode about Huwala. I think it's called Yes.
Speaker 2: And the episode about ha Well to just go a
Speaker 2: little bit behind the scenes, was very much informed by
Speaker 2: an expert in the field which we won't name, who
Speaker 2: gave us some very sterling information and explained it in
Speaker 2: great intriacy, I think in recall Andrew. Unfortunately, for various reasons,
Speaker 2: that expert couldn't appear in the final product of the show.
Speaker 1: Yes. I don't know if he got cold feet or
Speaker 1: someone close to him said you shouldn't do this because
Speaker 1: because of your I think his employment potentially perhaps someone
Speaker 1: close to him said don't do this because you know
Speaker 1: your very serious job might be at risk, and he regretfully,
Speaker 1: he was full of regret. Ranguson said, look, sorry, you
Speaker 1: can't use what I said. So what we did, John
Speaker 1: was going to air and give our version of what
Speaker 1: he said, which was not nearly as detailed, but I
Speaker 1: hope people got something out of it exactly.
Speaker 2: We tried our best to explain Hawalah.
Speaker 1: Explain something that we didn't really know a lot about.
Speaker 2: Another person named Matt has another suggestion for us, and
Speaker 2: this is sort of getting as Matt suggests to the
Speaker 2: sort of era of the Lady in the Swamp, sort
Speaker 2: of nineteen fifties era, looking at the sundown murders in
Speaker 2: outback South Australia in the nineteen fifties. Matt used to
Speaker 2: work in the Northern Territory, so some of these stories
Speaker 2: are part of legend of the outback. What were the
Speaker 2: sundown murders?
Speaker 1: I only recall this fairly flimsily, but there were a
Speaker 1: series of murders and or disappearances in the outback. I'm
Speaker 1: going to say, out back South Australian perps up into
Speaker 1: the territory, in that long vast landscape between Adelaide and Darwin,
Speaker 1: in there somewhere where people out on remote stations disappeared
Speaker 1: or were killed. Beyond that, I cannot give any details.
Speaker 1: I'd have to look it all up again. It's a
Speaker 1: long time since I've read about it.
Speaker 2: Well, at some stage, Matt, hopefully we might take a
Speaker 2: look at that idea. Particularly there's a few in South
Speaker 2: Australia we haven't really looked at. We haven't looked at
Speaker 2: Snowtown at any stage.
Speaker 1: I think no, perhaps we could. South Australia is interesting
Speaker 1: because it, you know, Adelaide, but also the rest of
Speaker 1: South Australia. But Adelade's a very respectable place, the city
Speaker 1: of churches, and yet it has always thrown up some
Speaker 1: very creepy murders and strange behavior. It's a strange place.
Speaker 1: It's a great novelists. Selmon rushed. He pointed out that
Speaker 1: Adelaide is, you know, a nice little city where they
Speaker 1: commit dreadful murders.
Speaker 2: South Australia also seems to do a good line in
Speaker 2: ghost towns too. Oh.
Speaker 1: South Australia is full of ghost towns for very good
Speaker 1: geographic reasons. Essentially, it's a state full of deserts. Desert's
Speaker 1: been places where there's not much rain very often, and
Speaker 1: at some point in the distant past there was a
Speaker 1: few wet years in a row, which gave early settlers,
Speaker 1: early white settlers, the idea that some land in the
Speaker 1: north of what they call the Goider Line interesting name,
Speaker 1: North of the Goider Line was indeed arable and you
Speaker 1: could grow crops there. The reality was that you couldn't
Speaker 1: nine years out of ten. Most of the time it
Speaker 1: was a desert, but because there were a few freakish
Speaker 1: good years, there were little stone farm houses built, and
Speaker 1: little stone villages and towns built and so on, and
Speaker 1: people planted crops and all the rest of it, only
Speaker 1: to find out a decade down the road that they
Speaker 1: were drought stricken. They were starving and going bad in
Speaker 1: every way, and so they just abandoned those places and
Speaker 1: moved south to where the rain was more reliable, rainfall
Speaker 1: was more reliable, leaving behind these cottages made of stone
Speaker 1: and farmhouses and so on, which have provided a sort
Speaker 1: of spooky landscape of very cheap housing for the sort
Speaker 1: of people who want to go and hang out in
Speaker 1: the back of beyond. It does attract the sort of
Speaker 1: people that you don't want as neighbors.
Speaker 2: I think we had a story. An episode was that
Speaker 2: the skull in the Chimney episodes. Skull in the Chimney
Speaker 2: episode very interesting.
Speaker 1: Our correspondent over there is a funny fella, and he
Speaker 1: sometimes sends me updates about the latest happenings in that
Speaker 1: particular district and who's who in the zoo and who's
Speaker 1: stealing the pension money and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1: It's quite a very snowtown sort of stuff that happens
Speaker 1: a lot in those strange little hillbilly areas of South Australia.
Speaker 2: And if anyone would like to listen to the aforementioned
Speaker 2: skull on the Chimney episode, will put the name of
Speaker 2: that episode in the description of this episode, and we
Speaker 2: might look at some South Australian Gothic horror.
Speaker 1: Great idea I think we should. We should perhaps go
Speaker 1: to each state and comb through looking for the best stories.
Speaker 1: In fact, I recently obtained a book about murders in
Speaker 1: the Malley. A local fellow who is a diligent researcher
Speaker 1: has read every copy of the Sunraisier Daily and other
Speaker 1: local newspapers way back from now, back one hundred years,
Speaker 1: and he's come up with a whole series of redetailed
Speaker 1: descriptions of murders and things, which I think we order
Speaker 1: string together into a bit of local content.
Speaker 2: So a bit of sun and stubble and plowshares and
Speaker 2: murder and murder. Now we've had quite a few emails,
Speaker 2: but probably the biggest thing we have been asked over
Speaker 2: the last few weeks is Deb Gray's book.
Speaker 1: Deb Gray's book a simple twist of fate. I'm so
Speaker 1: pleased to hear it. It's been reprinted. I've taken a
Speaker 1: great interest in Deb Gray's book. As our listeners know,
Speaker 1: we were born in the same hospital all those years ago.
Speaker 1: She currently, as we speak, is still in Royal Melbourne
Speaker 1: Hospital because she broke her leg. Now this is a
Speaker 1: woman with no arms and two very short legs. She's
Speaker 1: broken a leg on a vline train a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks back, and really bad news because she was all
Speaker 1: set to do too around and promote the book. She
Speaker 1: ended up in Royal Melbourne Hospital, where I think she
Speaker 1: still is today. It took eight days before they operated
Speaker 1: on her leg. They've had to put a plate in it,
Speaker 1: screws all sorts of stuff, and currently she's negotiating with
Speaker 1: the TAC and the Etworth Hospital to do rehabit at
Speaker 1: Epworth where I think they'll do a great job for her,
Speaker 1: and I'm confident that the TAC will do a great
Speaker 1: job and make sure it's paid for because Dab, I
Speaker 1: have to say, is on a pension and does not
Speaker 1: have too bob to rub together as her dad would
Speaker 1: have said. Her book, Simple Twist of Fate as now
Speaker 1: in its third reprint, small reprints, but reprints. It's selling
Speaker 1: quite strongly, particularly in Gipsland, where she's from. And I
Speaker 1: know this because I'm taking an interest in that side
Speaker 1: of it for her and handling the reprints and all
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, so I know that it's going
Speaker 1: quite well. It's not going to make her rich, but
Speaker 1: it might pay her print bills, which is a great thing.
Speaker 1: She told me, I don't want to make money. I
Speaker 1: just want people to read my story. She's a gutsy, brave, engaging,
Speaker 1: funny woman.
Speaker 2: And i'd thoroughly recommend if you haven't listened to the
Speaker 2: episode A Simple Twist of Fate, it's in your podcast feed.
Speaker 2: And how can people if they wish to read Deb's book?
Speaker 2: Is there a way that one can do this?
Speaker 1: Right? Well? Good question. A short print run of the
Speaker 1: books is going to go this week to a Sydney
Speaker 1: based distributor who will distribute it through various bookshops and
Speaker 1: newsagents around our place. I suspect that we'll probably get
Speaker 1: another reprint after that. We're only talking hundreds of books
Speaker 1: each time. I have three boxes of the books in
Speaker 1: my boot and I'm taking them to East Skipsland tomorrow
Speaker 1: because I'm going up there on other matters and I
Speaker 1: will be distributing those to the Collins Bookshop in Sale,
Speaker 1: to the book Orchard i think it's called in Bensdale,
Speaker 1: and to Lake Entrance Bookshop and the gift Shop i
Speaker 1: think it's called in Lake Entrance, and they will also
Speaker 1: supply some of those to the Orbost Bookshop. So it's
Speaker 1: going to be fairly well distributed through Gippsland from sale
Speaker 1: right up to and anybody who knows anybody out there
Speaker 1: should be able to get a copy.
Speaker 2: And if you want to take a day trip from Melbourne,
Speaker 2: if you're in the metropolis, might be a good idea.
Speaker 2: Maybe call first to see if they've got it in stock.
Speaker 2: Thanks for everyone who's sent in questions. We do have
Speaker 2: a few more that we've already collected and we'll be
Speaker 2: using in a later episode. But if you would like
Speaker 2: to add yours to the collection, you can email lifeAnd
Speaker 2: Crimes at News dot com dot au. That email address
Speaker 2: lifeAnd Crimes at News dot com dot au. If you
Speaker 2: would like to send Andrew Direct a news tip, your email.
Speaker 1: Is Andrew dot Rule so it's got a full stop
Speaker 1: between the first name and the second name at News
Speaker 1: dot com dot Au. That email address again, Andrew full
Speaker 1: stop rule at News dot com dot Au.
Speaker 2: And if you would like to help us now podcasting endeavors,
Speaker 2: please feel free to rate us on whatever podcast medium
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Speaker 2: Five stars or more would be glorious, but we can
Speaker 2: take it, but we can deal with otherwise. And if
Speaker 2: you would like to read Andrew's colms, along with the
Speaker 2: work of our crime reporters, people like Mike Butler, Olivia
Speaker 2: Jenkins and Anthony Dowsley.
Speaker 1: Who's Back in the Fold?
Speaker 2: Who's Back in the Fold? You can go to haroldsun
Speaker 2: dot com dot Au, click on any article. If you're
Speaker 2: a subscriber, you will immediately start reading. If you're not
Speaker 2: a subscriber, there'll be an opportunity to subscribe.
Speaker 1: Thank you Andrew, Thank you John. It's been excellent talking
Speaker 1: to our listeners as we occasionally do and to hear
Speaker 1: their suggestions, which are good ones. Thanks for listening. Life
Speaker 1: and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true
Speaker 1: crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns,
Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au,
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Speaker 1: to news podcasts sold at news dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcast's soul And if
Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in
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