1 00:00:03,410 --> 00:00:05,960 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:05,970 --> 00:00:08,840 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. We've talked a bit about the different types of 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,900 Sean Aylmer: property investing in Australia over the last year. But today 4 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:15,080 Sean Aylmer: I wanted to focus on one in particular, the recovery 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,620 Sean Aylmer: in the commercial sector. Commercial property broadly covers everything from 6 00:00:18,620 --> 00:00:22,650 Sean Aylmer: offices and warehouses to shopping centers, even data centers. Some 7 00:00:22,650 --> 00:00:26,079 Sean Aylmer: of those thrived during lockdowns, whereas others are just recovering 8 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,770 Sean Aylmer: now. There's also lessons investors can learn from overseas markets, 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,430 Sean Aylmer: which have reopened before us. Damian Diamantopoulos is the head 10 00:00:33,430 --> 00:00:36,620 Sean Aylmer: of property research at Australian Unity. Damian, welcome to Fear 11 00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:37,040 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 12 00:00:37,409 --> 00:00:39,170 Damian Diamantopoulos: Great to be here, Sean. Thanks for having me. 13 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:42,300 Sean Aylmer: Now let's start with retailers and shopping centers, something that 14 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:44,129 Sean Aylmer: we're all thinking about at the moment, a few days ahead 15 00:00:44,130 --> 00:00:47,990 Sean Aylmer: of Christmas. Some have performed better than others during lockdowns. 16 00:00:48,260 --> 00:00:50,879 Sean Aylmer: For example, suburban shopping centers seem to have done pretty 17 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,610 Sean Aylmer: well compared to some of those big malls. What's the 18 00:00:53,610 --> 00:00:55,110 Sean Aylmer: outlook for them do you think? 19 00:00:55,590 --> 00:00:57,740 Damian Diamantopoulos: Oh, it's a great question. I think if you break 20 00:00:57,740 --> 00:01:01,330 Damian Diamantopoulos: it down, it's really all about essential spend versus non- 21 00:01:01,330 --> 00:01:04,920 Damian Diamantopoulos: essential spend retailing. So discretionary versus nondiscretionary. So if you 22 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,350 Damian Diamantopoulos: break it down, you look at the convenience- based shopping 23 00:01:07,350 --> 00:01:11,590 Damian Diamantopoulos: centers, the supermarket- dominated shopping centers, where 50 to 80% 24 00:01:11,590 --> 00:01:15,140 Damian Diamantopoulos: of the rent roll's dominated by Kohls, Woolies, or Aldi or 25 00:01:15,140 --> 00:01:17,850 Damian Diamantopoulos: a combination of each, they're the types of assets that 26 00:01:17,850 --> 00:01:20,789 Damian Diamantopoulos: as we saw during the pandemic, really came into their 27 00:01:20,790 --> 00:01:22,669 Damian Diamantopoulos: own in that everyone has to go to the shops 28 00:01:22,670 --> 00:01:26,340 Damian Diamantopoulos: to continue to, I guess, feed themselves, to buy their 29 00:01:26,340 --> 00:01:29,089 Damian Diamantopoulos: daily essentials, et cetera. And you know, they're the ones 30 00:01:29,090 --> 00:01:32,250 Damian Diamantopoulos: that remained open throughout the whole pandemic. And then you 31 00:01:32,250 --> 00:01:36,140 Damian Diamantopoulos: look at the underlying covenant Coles, Woolies, Aldi, they're good 32 00:01:36,470 --> 00:01:38,620 Damian Diamantopoulos: payers of rent. If you switch to malls as an 33 00:01:38,620 --> 00:01:43,580 Damian Diamantopoulos: example, well, with their discretionary element dominated by fashion and 34 00:01:43,690 --> 00:01:48,140 Damian Diamantopoulos: eating in and entertainment, et cetera, they struggled because, during 35 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,620 Damian Diamantopoulos: the pandemic, we did see that they had to close 36 00:01:50,620 --> 00:01:53,210 Damian Diamantopoulos: and then readjust their business models. The underlying retailers had 37 00:01:53,210 --> 00:01:55,360 Damian Diamantopoulos: to adjust their business models to more of an online 38 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,040 Damian Diamantopoulos: offering, to cater for the current world that we live 39 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,080 Damian Diamantopoulos: in. And we saw it with valuations. If you look 40 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,940 Damian Diamantopoulos: at some of the most recent valuations that have come 41 00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:07,340 Damian Diamantopoulos: through on supermarket- dominated shopping centers, we're seeing property yield 42 00:02:07,340 --> 00:02:10,150 Damian Diamantopoulos: compression, which means property values going up. We saw that 43 00:02:10,150 --> 00:02:12,190 Damian Diamantopoulos: with Shopping Centres Australasia just the other day, they've pre- 44 00:02:12,190 --> 00:02:14,900 Damian Diamantopoulos: announced their results. But some of the pain's really been 45 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:17,030 Damian Diamantopoulos: in the bigger mall space. And if you break it 46 00:02:17,030 --> 00:02:19,000 Damian Diamantopoulos: down even further with some of those bigger malls, it's 47 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,550 Damian Diamantopoulos: really the CBD- dominated malls that have really fared the 48 00:02:22,550 --> 00:02:27,220 Damian Diamantopoulos: worst. But again, roll forward, borders open, and they very 49 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:28,810 Damian Diamantopoulos: much become a reopening trade. 50 00:02:29,090 --> 00:02:32,149 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. Damian, if I want to invest in this... 51 00:02:32,150 --> 00:02:34,280 Sean Aylmer: So you need to go through a managed fund. It's 52 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,610 Sean Aylmer: very difficult for an individual to invest in a shopping center, 53 00:02:38,610 --> 00:02:40,919 Sean Aylmer: for example, or retail outlets, I suppose you can own 54 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,470 Sean Aylmer: a strip shop or something like that. How do you 55 00:02:43,470 --> 00:02:47,630 Sean Aylmer: work out, though, whether you're investing in CBD shopping areas 56 00:02:47,630 --> 00:02:50,880 Sean Aylmer: or whether you're investing in regional shopping centers? Is that a matter 57 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:52,530 Sean Aylmer: of going through the fund itself? 58 00:02:52,950 --> 00:02:54,360 Damian Diamantopoulos: Well, that's right. You've really got to look under the 59 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,290 Damian Diamantopoulos: hood and see what the underlying managed fund, whether it's 60 00:02:57,290 --> 00:02:59,990 Damian Diamantopoulos: a managed fund that invests enlisted property stocks, or whether 61 00:02:59,990 --> 00:03:03,010 Damian Diamantopoulos: it's a managed fund that invests in direct properties, you 62 00:03:03,010 --> 00:03:04,730 Damian Diamantopoulos: really need to look under the hood to see what 63 00:03:04,730 --> 00:03:08,880 Damian Diamantopoulos: they're currently owning. And even retail is different by catchment. 64 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,710 Damian Diamantopoulos: You can't tarnish all retail with the same brush, even 65 00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:14,150 Damian Diamantopoulos: in the big mall space you're going to see some 66 00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:18,050 Damian Diamantopoulos: perform better than others. So it's really, " Retail is beholden 67 00:03:18,050 --> 00:03:20,900 Damian Diamantopoulos: to the catchment which it operates in." So that's really 68 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:21,480 Damian Diamantopoulos: what you need to do. 69 00:03:22,060 --> 00:03:25,330 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So. Let's look into office buildings. There seems to 70 00:03:25,330 --> 00:03:29,600 Sean Aylmer: be plenty of office buildings still being built. And notwithstanding 71 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,040 Sean Aylmer: your comment about the CBD a moment ago, and all 72 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,710 Sean Aylmer: these question marks about where work- from- home goes in 2022, hybrid 73 00:03:36,710 --> 00:03:39,690 Sean Aylmer: working, there must still be pretty strong demand for office 74 00:03:39,690 --> 00:03:41,900 Sean Aylmer: buildings though, given how much construction's going on. 75 00:03:42,350 --> 00:03:45,650 Damian Diamantopoulos: Yeah. It's a good point that you raise. We're seeing 76 00:03:45,830 --> 00:03:48,810 Damian Diamantopoulos: a bit of development across the board still, but tenants 77 00:03:48,810 --> 00:03:51,440 Damian Diamantopoulos: are still after space. The pandemic, what it's done is 78 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,500 Damian Diamantopoulos: really delay decision- making. But now we've come to a 79 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:57,360 Damian Diamantopoulos: point where a lot of tenants occupies a space have 80 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,690 Damian Diamantopoulos: had to make a call. And really what's driving that 81 00:04:00,690 --> 00:04:04,610 Damian Diamantopoulos: is, work- from- home has worked throughout the pandemic, that's 82 00:04:04,610 --> 00:04:09,170 Damian Diamantopoulos: true. It's been really about flexibility going forward. And that's 83 00:04:09,170 --> 00:04:11,900 Damian Diamantopoulos: what users of space are looking to their landlords for 84 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:16,089 Damian Diamantopoulos: going forward. So new builds will have greater amenity. You 85 00:04:16,089 --> 00:04:18,680 Damian Diamantopoulos: will have less touchpoints and that sort of thing, going 86 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,219 Damian Diamantopoulos: forward. So they're the developments that'll play out in that 87 00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:25,270 Damian Diamantopoulos: space, but work- from- home isn't for all businesses, either. 88 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,219 Damian Diamantopoulos: We've all had to work- from- home for obvious reasons 89 00:04:28,220 --> 00:04:30,880 Damian Diamantopoulos: over the last year and a half, but you'll see, 90 00:04:32,029 --> 00:04:35,880 Damian Diamantopoulos: coming into February 2022, more and more return- to- work 91 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:40,099 Damian Diamantopoulos: edicts coming from employers. And whether that's one day a 92 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:42,419 Damian Diamantopoulos: week or four days a week back in the office, 93 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:44,909 Damian Diamantopoulos: I think what you'll see in the main is for 94 00:04:45,230 --> 00:04:47,479 Damian Diamantopoulos: employees to be in the office more than they're at 95 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,640 Damian Diamantopoulos: home. So call it three days a week. And even 96 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,750 Damian Diamantopoulos: with that, there's a requirement for being back in the 97 00:04:52,750 --> 00:04:56,130 Damian Diamantopoulos: office. And if you look at the transactional space, we 98 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:59,690 Damian Diamantopoulos: are seeing office buildings trading. Their trading at or around 99 00:04:59,779 --> 00:05:04,630 Damian Diamantopoulos: their current book values, office valuations, and held up throughout 100 00:05:04,630 --> 00:05:07,560 Damian Diamantopoulos: the pandemic. It was really the mall space that really bore 101 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,650 Damian Diamantopoulos: the brunt of it. So office, I don't think is 102 00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:13,210 Damian Diamantopoulos: dead. The office isn't dead. There will be a return 103 00:05:13,210 --> 00:05:16,220 Damian Diamantopoulos: to work, but flexibility will be here to stay, I 104 00:05:16,220 --> 00:05:19,690 Damian Diamantopoulos: believe. And, you're seeing it even with leases being struck 105 00:05:19,690 --> 00:05:22,080 Damian Diamantopoulos: at the moment where, as an example, if there's a 106 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,760 Damian Diamantopoulos: 10 year lease that a tenants looking to strike, they're 107 00:05:24,790 --> 00:05:28,310 Damian Diamantopoulos: after more flexibility in that maybe there's a review event 108 00:05:28,460 --> 00:05:31,240 Damian Diamantopoulos: at year five, halfway, to either expand or contract. So 109 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,930 Damian Diamantopoulos: they're looking for flexibility on that front. They're also looking 110 00:05:34,930 --> 00:05:37,020 Damian Diamantopoulos: at the structure of the lease. So for example, over 111 00:05:37,020 --> 00:05:39,779 Damian Diamantopoulos: a 10 year lease, you pay annual escalations. So whether 112 00:05:39,779 --> 00:05:42,290 Damian Diamantopoulos: it's CPI or a fixed amount of say 2 to 113 00:05:42,290 --> 00:05:46,550 Damian Diamantopoulos: 3%, what we are seeing is tenants going to the landlords 114 00:05:46,550 --> 00:05:49,419 Damian Diamantopoulos: to reduce that annual escalation for the first five years. 115 00:05:49,420 --> 00:05:52,080 Damian Diamantopoulos: So it might only be a 1% escalation for five 116 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,120 Damian Diamantopoulos: years, but then catching up on the second half of 117 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,930 Damian Diamantopoulos: the lease where it might be 4% per annum or there- abouts in order 118 00:05:56,930 --> 00:05:58,820 Damian Diamantopoulos: to pay the same amount over the whole length of the lease. 119 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,060 Damian Diamantopoulos: But essentially you're back- loading the rental escalations. 120 00:06:02,370 --> 00:06:05,320 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I mean, it's a really good point. I totally 121 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,529 Sean Aylmer: agree. I think people will move back to the office 122 00:06:07,630 --> 00:06:11,390 Sean Aylmer: fairly quickly when they can, but the actual style of 123 00:06:11,390 --> 00:06:14,440 Sean Aylmer: building that you work in will have to change somewhat 124 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,510 Sean Aylmer: or has changed already because of COVID. Right through from 125 00:06:18,890 --> 00:06:22,240 Sean Aylmer: touchpoints through to amenities, through to whether it's hot- desking 126 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,000 Sean Aylmer: or not hot- desking, all those sorts of things. So, 127 00:06:24,890 --> 00:06:26,810 Sean Aylmer: it's probably a different office environment in a way. 128 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,760 Damian Diamantopoulos: Yeah, exactly. That's another great point that you raise. So 129 00:06:30,020 --> 00:06:32,890 Damian Diamantopoulos: what we've seen in the past is where employees have 130 00:06:32,890 --> 00:06:37,300 Damian Diamantopoulos: really been pushed into small workspaces. You could all almost 131 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:39,900 Damian Diamantopoulos: label them, they're in there like battery hens. What we'll 132 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:43,839 Damian Diamantopoulos: see going forward though, is more space per person and 133 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,990 Damian Diamantopoulos: more collaboration space, more open space. And what that'll have 134 00:06:47,990 --> 00:06:50,610 Damian Diamantopoulos: is, again, it goes back to the prior point where 135 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:53,910 Damian Diamantopoulos: even if you've got people coming to the office less, 136 00:06:54,330 --> 00:06:57,760 Damian Diamantopoulos: you still have a requirement to offer more space per person 137 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,469 Damian Diamantopoulos: going forward. So some of it offsets the other, that's 138 00:07:01,470 --> 00:07:04,260 Damian Diamantopoulos: something to be cognizant of. And that's really what's driving 139 00:07:04,260 --> 00:07:06,120 Damian Diamantopoulos: things at the moment. Again, this is all playing out 140 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,820 Damian Diamantopoulos: in the background. So we'll see where it all settles 141 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:12,120 Damian Diamantopoulos: and lands, but those doomsdayers that think the office is 142 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,160 Damian Diamantopoulos: dead because everyone's working from home, or that everyone's going to be 143 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,620 Damian Diamantopoulos: working a couple days a week from home, hence a 144 00:07:17,620 --> 00:07:21,140 Damian Diamantopoulos: 30, 40% reduction in office accommodation. I think that's a 145 00:07:21,140 --> 00:07:23,590 Damian Diamantopoulos: bit false, because there are all these other offsets that 146 00:07:23,590 --> 00:07:25,869 Damian Diamantopoulos: you touched on that will even things out a little bit. 147 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,210 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Damian. We'll be back in a minute. 148 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,980 Sean Aylmer: I'm talking to Damian Diamantopoulos, head of property research at 149 00:07:36,980 --> 00:07:40,930 Sean Aylmer: Australian Unity. Okay. So let's go on to industrial and logistics. 150 00:07:41,010 --> 00:07:43,650 Sean Aylmer: If any property sector has had a good pandemic, so 151 00:07:43,990 --> 00:07:46,560 Sean Aylmer: to speak, it's got to be that area because of 152 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,640 Sean Aylmer: the huge surge in e- commerce and demand for logistics. 153 00:07:51,170 --> 00:07:53,180 Sean Aylmer: Do you think these sorts of returns, which have been 154 00:07:53,180 --> 00:07:55,930 Sean Aylmer: really good, can continue? Because it looks pretty pricey. 155 00:07:56,370 --> 00:07:59,870 Damian Diamantopoulos: Yeah. If you talk about winners and losers, the industrial 156 00:08:00,380 --> 00:08:03,030 Damian Diamantopoulos: sector has been a clear winner. And if you look 157 00:08:03,030 --> 00:08:07,760 Damian Diamantopoulos: at returns, year to September, these are MSCI and PCA 158 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,430 Damian Diamantopoulos: numbers, you're looking at a 24% return coming out of 159 00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:14,410 Damian Diamantopoulos: industrial for the 12 months. Then the prior 12 months 160 00:08:14,410 --> 00:08:18,060 Damian Diamantopoulos: to September, you're looking at around a 12% return. Putting 161 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,170 Damian Diamantopoulos: that into context. If we compare it to the laggard, 162 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,230 Damian Diamantopoulos: being retail, you're looking at a fourish percent return for September 21, or for the year to 163 00:08:24,230 --> 00:08:29,950 Damian Diamantopoulos: September 2021. And around a negative 11% return for the 164 00:08:29,950 --> 00:08:32,929 Damian Diamantopoulos: year to September 20. So just in those returns, that 165 00:08:32,929 --> 00:08:36,840 Damian Diamantopoulos: encapsulates exactly what you've articulated, but really it's all been... 166 00:08:37,150 --> 00:08:40,240 Damian Diamantopoulos: Working from home has meant that all the retailers have 167 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,510 Damian Diamantopoulos: had to adjust their business models, which has meant that 168 00:08:42,510 --> 00:08:45,949 Damian Diamantopoulos: online has come into its own. And it's meant that 169 00:08:45,990 --> 00:08:49,050 Damian Diamantopoulos: there's been a greater demand for warehouse logistics and getting 170 00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:51,360 Damian Diamantopoulos: the end product to the consumer, so that just means 171 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,070 Damian Diamantopoulos: more industrial space required. Hence, if you've been involved or 172 00:08:55,070 --> 00:08:58,390 Damian Diamantopoulos: been invested in the industrial sector, you've done well. For 173 00:08:58,390 --> 00:09:01,160 Damian Diamantopoulos: many though, they've been underweight in the industrial sector. And 174 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,300 Damian Diamantopoulos: when I talk about many, you were talking about institutional investors, we're 175 00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:08,080 Damian Diamantopoulos: talking about superannuation funds, we're talking about global pension funds 176 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,520 Damian Diamantopoulos: and sovereign wealth funds. They've traditionally always been underweight industrial. 177 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,910 Damian Diamantopoulos: It's been seen as the poor cousin out of the 178 00:09:14,910 --> 00:09:18,710 Damian Diamantopoulos: big three of office, retail, and industrial. And all of 179 00:09:18,710 --> 00:09:21,209 Damian Diamantopoulos: a sudden the merits of it have come into its 180 00:09:21,210 --> 00:09:24,530 Damian Diamantopoulos: own. Most of the underlying tenants in industrial have continued to 181 00:09:24,530 --> 00:09:27,020 Damian Diamantopoulos: operate throughout the whole of the pandemic, have continued to 182 00:09:27,020 --> 00:09:30,030 Damian Diamantopoulos: pay rent throughout the whole of the pandemic. And then 183 00:09:30,030 --> 00:09:33,099 Damian Diamantopoulos: you've got it from the transactional side, where everyone wants 184 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:35,309 Damian Diamantopoulos: to get set if they've been underweight in the sector. 185 00:09:35,309 --> 00:09:38,900 Damian Diamantopoulos: So you've seen some really strong returns and you've seen 186 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:43,440 Damian Diamantopoulos: capitalization rates or property yields really compressed to what we 187 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,490 Damian Diamantopoulos: are seeing now for good quality industrial, being in the low- to- 188 00:09:46,490 --> 00:09:49,360 Damian Diamantopoulos: mid 3% range, which is quite low and the lowest 189 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,900 Damian Diamantopoulos: of all the sectors, remembering that property yields or capitalization 190 00:09:52,900 --> 00:09:55,130 Damian Diamantopoulos: rates, the lower they go, the higher the valuations go. 191 00:09:55,130 --> 00:09:56,740 Damian Diamantopoulos: There's as an inverse relationship. 192 00:09:57,100 --> 00:10:00,740 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. One final thing, Damien. I've heard you talk 193 00:10:00,740 --> 00:10:03,170 Sean Aylmer: previously about the importance of high quality assets. So whether 194 00:10:03,170 --> 00:10:07,780 Sean Aylmer: we are talking about retail, or office, or industrial and 195 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:11,440 Sean Aylmer: logistics, you are a fan of high quality assets? 196 00:10:11,770 --> 00:10:13,770 Damian Diamantopoulos: I am a fan of high quality assets, but the 197 00:10:13,770 --> 00:10:18,840 Damian Diamantopoulos: definition or how one describes high quality can differ across 198 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,110 Damian Diamantopoulos: the board. So, my view is it's all about the 199 00:10:22,110 --> 00:10:25,030 Damian Diamantopoulos: quality of the underlying income stream. It's the strength of 200 00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:28,770 Damian Diamantopoulos: the tenant covenant. You're looking at least duration, certainty of 201 00:10:28,770 --> 00:10:31,750 Damian Diamantopoulos: rental payments, but then at times you've got to look 202 00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:33,979 Damian Diamantopoulos: beyond that and also look at maybe higher and better 203 00:10:33,980 --> 00:10:36,490 Damian Diamantopoulos: use of the land and whether the property or the 204 00:10:36,490 --> 00:10:39,580 Damian Diamantopoulos: land is amenable to development, the catchment that it resides 205 00:10:39,580 --> 00:10:43,059 Damian Diamantopoulos: in, the usability of that asset. You need to consider 206 00:10:43,059 --> 00:10:46,460 Damian Diamantopoulos: things like obsolescence, which obviously comes into play on the 207 00:10:46,460 --> 00:10:49,610 Damian Diamantopoulos: office side that you touched on earlier. So an asset, 208 00:10:49,610 --> 00:10:51,970 Damian Diamantopoulos: for me, doesn't need to be aesthetically pleasing. It doesn't 209 00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:55,020 Damian Diamantopoulos: need to be a trophy asset. It just needs to 210 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:58,510 Damian Diamantopoulos: be of a high quality, and that touches on many of 211 00:10:58,510 --> 00:11:00,069 Damian Diamantopoulos: the things that I've just described. 212 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,030 Sean Aylmer: Damian, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 213 00:11:02,690 --> 00:11:03,790 Damian Diamantopoulos: I appreciate the time. Thank you. 214 00:11:04,290 --> 00:11:07,890 Sean Aylmer: That is Damian Diamantopoulos, head of property research at Australian 215 00:11:07,890 --> 00:11:10,590 Sean Aylmer: Unity. This is a Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join 216 00:11:10,590 --> 00:11:12,709 Sean Aylmer: me every morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast 217 00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:14,910 Sean Aylmer: with all the business news you need to know. I'm 218 00:11:14,910 --> 00:11:16,370 Sean Aylmer: Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.