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Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives

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Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For

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Speaker 1: 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today's

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Speaker 1: conversation couldn't be more timely. My guest, Brent Sanders, is

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Speaker 1: a former cop turned safety educator. He delivers training to

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Speaker 1: high school and university students on how to stay safe

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Speaker 1: and act respectfully when navigating the complex issues of sexual harassment,

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Speaker 1: sexual assault and consent. For young men, his training focuses

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Speaker 1: on taking responsibility for their actions, resisting peer pressure and

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Speaker 1: understanding the importance of respect and self-discipline. For young women,

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Speaker 1: Brent provides practical tools and strategies, helping them understand how

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Speaker 1: offenders think and how to stay level-headed in potential dangerous situations.

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Speaker 1: Given everything we've seen in the media recently about alleged

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Speaker 1: sexual assault incidents, this conversation, I think, is well worth

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Speaker 1: your time. Brent Sanders, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Gary.

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Speaker 1: There's been a lot in the media of recent times

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Speaker 1: about groups of young men caught up in serious sexual

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Speaker 1: assault allegations, a lot of high-profile stuff. We even had

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Speaker 1: a situation where there was an alleged choking of a

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Speaker 1: 16-year-old girl during the sex act. And sadly, we see

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Speaker 1: it in the media too often, women are victims of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. So we want to sort of cover off

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Speaker 1: on that. But you obviously... have an in-depth understanding of

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Speaker 1: the type of problems associated with those offenses. Education plays

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Speaker 1: a big part. Would you agree?

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Speaker 2: Oh, look, 100%. And on both sides of that discussion,

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Speaker 2: I think a micronism of that, Gary, is I have

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Speaker 2: a son, I have a daughter. They're older now, but

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Speaker 2: I've gone into both of their schools over the years.

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Speaker 2: I've presented in both their schools for close to 20 years.

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Speaker 2: And young women are entitled to know all the legal stuff,

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Speaker 2: all the definitions, consent and everything else. Young men equally

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Speaker 2: are entitled to that knowledge. So I think knowledge is

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Speaker 2: such an important thing. And I see when I go

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Speaker 2: into the schools and even at university level, I see

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Speaker 2: that there's a familiarity with a lot of the terms, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, terms like consent and terms like that. But

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Speaker 2: when you sort of scrape below the surface and say, well, okay,

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Speaker 2: what does it actually mean? to have consent? What does

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Speaker 2: it mean to give consent? Or if you're advising a

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Speaker 2: friend on something that's happened to them, where does your

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Speaker 2: information sort of come from? And I find that that's

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Speaker 2: where people's knowledge drops off the cliff a little. So

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Speaker 2: that's sort of where I try to fill in those

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Speaker 2: gaps and say, well, let's look at what consent is.

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Speaker 2: Let's look at how it applies. Even definitions carry around,

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Speaker 2: and we're getting a lot of media reporting with terminology

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Speaker 2: around sexual crime. People have a familiarity with all these terms,

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Speaker 2: but they're not quite sure what they mean. So once

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Speaker 2: you can fill those gaps, I think, and you educate,

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Speaker 2: that's a big step in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's something that you've, and I'm amazed, and I

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Speaker 1: had to check my facts, but you've spoken to over

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Speaker 1: a million students.

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Speaker 2: I have.

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Speaker 1: Mate, I've been doing this a long time. I was

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Speaker 1: doing the calculations. That's a lot, but you've been doing

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Speaker 1: this for over 30 years.

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Speaker 2: Over 30 years, and I speak to 30,000 to 40,000

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Speaker 2: students a year. I go into 150-odd schools, every state

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Speaker 2: and territory around the country.

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Speaker 1: And I was not surprised, but it's interesting that there

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Speaker 1: seemed to be so much hunger for from the students

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Speaker 1: when you gave the talks that you do, and we'll

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Speaker 1: delve deeper into the messaging that you're getting across. Sure.

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Speaker 1: But the amount of hunger from the kids or young adults, teenagers.

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Speaker 1: Spot on.

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Speaker 2: You know, I came from a policing background like yourself, Gary,

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Speaker 2: and I thought the last thing that students would want

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Speaker 2: to hear about is legal stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I thought that's black and white, dry and boring gear.

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Speaker 2: Young people, they're not going to want to know about that. 99%

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Speaker 2: of the questions I get pertain to students wanting to

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Speaker 2: qualify the legal stuff. Okay, if the law says this,

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Speaker 2: where's that line? What happens if it's crossed? And they

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Speaker 2: really want that black and white clarity.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes it's an awkward conversation. So the parents mightn't

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Speaker 1: have the conversation with them, teachers mightn't. So where do

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Speaker 1: they get the information from? And if they're getting the

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Speaker 1: information from each other, invariably it goes a bit skew-iff. 100%.

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Speaker 2: And, you know, this generation of young folks that I'm

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Speaker 2: talking to probably have access to more knowledge and information

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Speaker 2: than any other generation ever.

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Speaker 1: Oh, definitely.

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Speaker 2: But so much of it is unreliable. And I see that.

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Speaker 2: I see students sort of parroting what they've heard or

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Speaker 2: what they've read on a blog or something on social media.

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Speaker 2: And it bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the law.

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Speaker 2: But because they've read it on a social media platform-

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Speaker 2: It sort of carries a credibility that's not always really

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Speaker 2: there in existence. And even when the intent to put

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Speaker 2: that content up is honorable and it's done for the

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Speaker 2: right reason, sometimes the knowledge is not quite there to

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Speaker 2: match it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important stuff that you're doing. Before

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Speaker 1: we get into the messaging and the educational information that

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Speaker 1: you're providing to the students, let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about yourself. Mm-hmm. you were a cop, but before you

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Speaker 1: were a cop, you actually fell foul of the law.

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Speaker 2: I did, mate.

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Speaker 1: As a young fella. We all make mistakes. If you're

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Speaker 1: happy to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, mate. I've told this story quite a

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Speaker 2: few times. In fact, when I speak to young men

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Speaker 2: in my seminars, it's one of the things I talk about.

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Speaker 2: I've always sort of had this feeling, talking to young

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Speaker 2: boys or young men about choice, about consequence, about behaviour.

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Speaker 2: I've always sort of felt strongly that I don't want

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Speaker 2: to just go in and say, do this, don't do that.

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Speaker 2: Because they're looking at me going, well, who the hell

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Speaker 2: is this? What would he know? So I just tell

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Speaker 2: my story. And I say, guys, I'm not telling you

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Speaker 2: this because I think you're going to do what I

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Speaker 2: did or you're going to end up where I ended up.

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you this because good young blokes can make

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Speaker 2: bad choices. They can make them in a heartbeat. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: I grew up in New Zealand, got in a fair

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Speaker 2: bit of trouble going through year 10. I ended up

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Speaker 2: pinching a car New Year's Eve. You know, I got

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Speaker 2: dared by a couple of mates at a party we

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Speaker 2: were at, took the bloke's mum's car.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Speaker 2: Oh, hilarious, yeah. And, you know, it was a culmination

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Speaker 2: of the sort of behaviour that I was expressing during

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Speaker 2: that time, all about, you know, being scared to say

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Speaker 2: no to your mates. Creating a version of yourself that

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Speaker 2: wasn't really real, but you were frightened that people would

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Speaker 2: see through it.

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Speaker 1: You're tapping into the peer group pressure.

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Speaker 2: All that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And you can do some stupid.

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Speaker 2: Shit because of the peer group pressure. And it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: One thing I say to young men when I talk

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Speaker 2: to them is, you know, the world that they live

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Speaker 2: in today in many regards is unrecognizable to the world

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Speaker 2: that you and I lived in in, say, year 10

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Speaker 2: or year 11. But the stuff that I talk to

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Speaker 2: them about in this context, it simply hasn't changed. And

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Speaker 2: I get young blokes coming up to me after the

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Speaker 2: talks and saying, it was like you were talking about me.

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Speaker 2: I've been in these situations. And so, yeah, man, I

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Speaker 2: took that car. I had one of my best mates

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Speaker 2: in the front seat, another mate in the back. And

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Speaker 2: long story short, you know, we drove into a school

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Speaker 2: this one, two o'clock in the morning and plowed straight

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Speaker 2: through a fence through the side of a house. And, yeah, literally,

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Speaker 2: you know, you and I have back in the day

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Speaker 2: climbed through car wrecks where some survive, some don't. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've crawled through car wrecks. where all the occupants had

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Speaker 2: been killed in the car that were less serious than

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Speaker 2: the accident that I created.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't leave you, does it? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, there was an elderly woman in the house.

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Speaker 2: Could have killed her. So, yeah, that was New Year's

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Speaker 2: Eve into year 10. So I'd just turned 16, did

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Speaker 2: a runner, got caught. The old police track a dog

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Speaker 2: from the car, you know, a whole nine yards. Two

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Speaker 2: mates could have been charged. Two mates could have been charged. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they knowingly got into a stolen car. But one was 15,

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Speaker 2: one was 16. They got a bit of a, Kick

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Speaker 2: up the backside. Yeah, I got charged with three criminal offences.

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Speaker 2: Unlawful taking motor vehicle, dangerous driving, willful damage. And they

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Speaker 2: were all serious offences to be levelled at a 16-year-old kid.

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Speaker 2: And you know the process, Gary. You've been in the job.

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Speaker 2: What they call juvenile justice or Department of Community Services,

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Speaker 2: they'll go to your school to visit your school and

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Speaker 2: they'll have a chat to the principal and teachers to

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Speaker 2: get a bit of a picture. Mate, I'd been suspended

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Speaker 2: a couple of times that year. I was just- So

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Speaker 2: the track critical wasn't totally- Yeah, so I had spiders

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Speaker 2: all over me. So I ended up in court second

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Speaker 2: week of year 11, pleaded guilty to all three offences.

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Speaker 2: And it's just funny things that happen in your life.

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Speaker 2: There was a judge presiding over my case. I'd never

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Speaker 2: met him. I mean, you know, young bloke, you walk

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Speaker 2: into court, you're in front of that judge for five minutes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Then you walk out and another bloke walks in. I

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Speaker 2: ended up working with him as a copper, funnily enough.

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Speaker 2: Ian Robinson. I'll never forget his name. Because stroke of

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Speaker 2: a pen, my life's totally different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that sliding door moment.

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Speaker 2: Oh, mate, he gave me, it used to be called

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Speaker 2: being admonished and discharged. without conviction. I think they now

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Speaker 2: call it section 10, which sounds much more official. Admonished

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Speaker 2: and discharged without conviction basically means, old term is being admonished.

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Speaker 2: You're being told off by the charge. It gives you

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Speaker 2: a serve. But you walk out of court without having

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Speaker 2: a criminal conviction alongside your name. And although that just

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Speaker 2: sounds like a whole lot of words, you and I know,

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Speaker 2: A young person that gets a conviction alongside their name,

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Speaker 2: it stays, can stay with you for life depending on

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Speaker 2: the offense.

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Speaker 1: Most definitely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then you start applying. For example, you can't

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Speaker 2: get into the police with a conviction. You can't get

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Speaker 2: a police, army, Navy, Air Force, fireys, ambos, all those things.

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Speaker 2: So I walked out, probably didn't even know at the

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Speaker 2: time the consequence of avoiding that. Yeah. So I actually

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Speaker 2: have a criminal record, but my record contains three warnings. So-

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Speaker 2: Needless to say, three years later, uh, I walked in

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Speaker 2: to the Wellington police station, the station that I'd been

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Speaker 2: arrested at.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And, um, knocked on the door of the recruitment sergeant

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Speaker 2: and applied to get the job. You know, things had

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Speaker 2: obviously turned around. I'd pulled my socks up and given

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Speaker 2: myself a couple of uppercuts. And, uh, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the first thing they do, I'd imagine it's the same now. Uh,

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Speaker 2: Gary is, you know, the old recruitment bloke. He's sitting

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Speaker 2: on the, I'll say a lovely bloke about the age

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Speaker 2: of my dad, you know, and, He types up your name,

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Speaker 2: date of birth, puts it in the police computer and

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Speaker 2: has a quick look at the screen and here comes

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Speaker 2: my criminal record.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he sort of looks at it, looks at me

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Speaker 2: and says, oh, we better have a bit of a

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Speaker 2: chat about this. Um, but because there was no conviction

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Speaker 2: on any of the three charges, in essence, they, they

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Speaker 2: couldn't stop me from applying. They could weed me out

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Speaker 2: through the process. So I applied and, um, You know,

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Speaker 2: back in the day, you had to do medicals and

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Speaker 2: physicals and exams and everything, you know, chin-ups and press-ups

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Speaker 2: and sit-ups and all the things that, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if they still do all that. I got through it

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Speaker 2: and I got in. So I ended up going to

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Speaker 2: the police college three years after. The first time, the

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Speaker 2: first lock-up I made was for shoplifting, fairly, you know,

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Speaker 2: run-of-the-mill sort of thing. A couple of days out of

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Speaker 2: the academy, locked up a young bloke, same age as

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Speaker 2: I was when I got done, but he got done

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Speaker 2: for shoplifting, you know. And so that was the first

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Speaker 2: time I'd walked back into that same courtroom. The last

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Speaker 2: time I was in that courtroom, I was a 16-year-old

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Speaker 2: kid in the dock.

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Speaker 1: You were the accused.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm a 19-year-old cop and nervous as all hell,

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Speaker 2: reading out a summary of facts to a judge. So

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Speaker 2: life takes you down some funny pathways. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying because of that I was better at doing anything,

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Speaker 2: but I think... I think I had a, uh, an

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Speaker 2: empathy that perhaps not all have in those positions for

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Speaker 2: young fellas that got locked up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I, I tend to agree with you. I

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Speaker 1: think that sort of life experience, you can look at someone.

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Speaker 1: So when you're putting someone, arresting someone, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: that could have been me. It was me.

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Speaker 2: A hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: That type of, uh, type of situation.

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Speaker 2: And it's, and this is something I, it's not the

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Speaker 2: only thing I talk to boys about, but I do

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Speaker 2: talk to boys about that. And one thing I say

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Speaker 2: to them is, um, When I was sitting across the

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Speaker 2: desk as a copper from a young fellow, let's say

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Speaker 2: under 18, and he's been done for, might be shoplifting,

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Speaker 2: might be pinching a car, getting a punch up, or

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Speaker 2: whatever it is. You know, you take the statement, what

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Speaker 2: mum might be their dad, maybe a lawyer and that

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Speaker 2: type of thing. I'd always turn the– back in those days,

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Speaker 2: you know, we had to write the statements out and

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Speaker 2: they were typed up in the typing pool. It was

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Speaker 2: all a bit different, you know. Completely. It's all the

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Speaker 2: same now, but it's all a little bit more streamlined.

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Speaker 2: I'd turn the– I turned the statement, I put the

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Speaker 2: pen on top and I'd say to these young blokes

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Speaker 2: and I, and I tell this in my seminars, I'd

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Speaker 2: say these young fellows, I said, mate, you don't have

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Speaker 2: to answer this question. It's off the record, but from here,

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Speaker 2: we're going to go down the cell block. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to have to fingerprint your photograph here, the whole nine yards,

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Speaker 2: because this young bloke he's, he's frightened. He's terrified, you know,

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Speaker 2: but he doesn't even know how bad things can get,

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Speaker 2: you know, that decision that he's made heartbeat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Um, has the potential to change his life in a

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Speaker 2: way that no other decision could. And you and I

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Speaker 2: know sitting on this side of the desk, what's coming

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Speaker 2: for that young bloke. He's got no idea. And I'd

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Speaker 2: always ask this question. I'd say, mate, can I ask

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Speaker 2: you before, you know, I've got your statement, everything else.

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Speaker 2: Can I just ask you, mate, why'd you do it?

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Speaker 2: And not every young bloke answers, but those that did,

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Speaker 2: every one of them gave the same answer. And it

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Speaker 2: would be the same answer I'd have given if the

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Speaker 2: copper that locked me up had asked me. Mate, they

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Speaker 2: look up. Yeah, you've been here, Gary. Yeah, they look

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Speaker 2: up in tears. Mum and dad are there, you know.

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Speaker 2: And every young bloke who answered said, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why I did it. I can't even

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Speaker 2: believe I'm here, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I could

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Speaker 2: relate to that. You know, I woke up literally in

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Speaker 2: a cell in the back of the police station on

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Speaker 2: New Year's Day when I was 16. And I couldn't

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Speaker 2: believe it. what had happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was like it was sort of unreal, you know.

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Speaker 1: And you can't, and I know exactly what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: If you can get that message across to young boys

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Speaker 1: and young girls, there's consequences from your actions. Yes. And

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Speaker 1: that's something that you don't at that age actually think

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Speaker 1: about until you get caught.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: I think of the things that I've done that got

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Speaker 1: away with and it could have been the same scenario

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Speaker 1: or even worse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thereby the grace of God go all of us.

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Speaker 1: So I think if that sort of education and explaining

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Speaker 1: that to young people, be it young boys or young girls,

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Speaker 1: I think it's an important message to get across. Going

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Speaker 1: from there into the policing, so 19, so you were

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Speaker 1: the youngest graduate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, mate. Went in 85, which might have

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Speaker 2: been about the same time as you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was 85. Yeah. And you spent how long

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Speaker 1: in the cops? I was in the.

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Speaker 2: Job through the 80s into the 90s, close to 10 years. Yeah, yeah. And,

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Speaker 2: you know, you graduate. Again, you don't think of this

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Speaker 2: at the time, but, yeah, 19s. It's pretty young. I've

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Speaker 2: got a young fellow who's 25. I know. And I've

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Speaker 2: been frontline policing for six years at that stage. And

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Speaker 2: it's like, in many regards, 19's too young. You know,

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Speaker 2: I remember when you go through the academy, you might

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Speaker 2: have a couple of guys in your section who are

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Speaker 2: in their late 20s or even their early 30s. And

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Speaker 2: you look at them like they're these oracles. Like, you know,

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Speaker 2: they've had relationships and some of them are married. And

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Speaker 2: here I was, mate, 19. only just started shaving and

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Speaker 2: I'm diving into domestic disputes and I'm trying to, you know, and,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, it's a steep learning curve, but, uh,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't change it. And, and, um, you know, you

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Speaker 2: do your, uh, your general duty stuff. Um, I was

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Speaker 2: young and bit silly. I put your hand up for anything.

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Speaker 2: So I got a few deployments, did a bit of

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Speaker 2: the old vice squad stuff, a little bit of, um, uh,

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Speaker 2: drug squad involvement, then got plucked to do some sort of, um,

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Speaker 2: short term, uh, UC or undercover operations. And, uh, I

350
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Speaker 2: did a bit of gang liaison. I was police liaison

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Speaker 2: for a mob over there, Highway 61. They were like

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Speaker 2: a common cheeros sort of a set up, just a

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Speaker 2: bunch of idiots and did a bit of work there.

354
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Speaker 2: I was in the riot squad for a couple of years.

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Speaker 2: Riot policing in New Zealand came about after the 81

356
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Speaker 2: Springbok tour. You know, there was a lot of.

357
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Speaker 1: Stuff happening there. Okay, when South Africa came over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And that was really sort of fractured

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Speaker 2: society and they formed a unit there called the Red Squad.

360
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Speaker 2: And out of that, each main centre in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: formed a riot squad. It's like they reformed it here

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Speaker 2: after the criminal riots. I was on that for a

363
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Speaker 2: couple of years. I think there was about 20, 30 coppers,

364
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Speaker 2: a couple of dogs. And again, you know, that was Thursday, Friday,

365
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Speaker 2: Saturday nights, literally going into punch-ups, going into gang confrontations,

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Speaker 2: warrant on gang houses.

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Speaker 1: I mean.

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Speaker 2: Any copper who spent five minutes policing in New Zealand

369
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Speaker 2: back in the day, the gang issue was huge.

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Speaker 1: The gangs were, well, there's still a gang problem, but

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Speaker 1: it was wild times in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Look, it was. You know, you go into pubs, gang

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Speaker 2: pubs in Wellington, and this is a pub. We're in

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Speaker 2: a public bar. The only patrons are members of a

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Speaker 2: certain gang. And there'd be 100, 150 of them, you know,

376
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Speaker 2: full face tattoos, whole nine yards. So anyone who's not

377
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Speaker 2: in that gang doesn't set foot in that pub.

378
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

379
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 2: So you go in there, there'd be 30 coppers and

380
00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:12,300
Speaker 2: a couple of dogs and it could be as, they

381
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 2: could be fine. Those blokes can be okay. They can

382
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Speaker 2: be fine one-on-one, but when it goes off, it's like

383
00:18:17,820 --> 00:18:20,899
Speaker 2: a firecracker. Just suddenly it's all on. So then I,

384
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Speaker 2: you know, I dipped my toe after that, um, into

385
00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:25,100
Speaker 2: a bit of sexual crime stuff that, that, that was

386
00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:28,460
Speaker 2: all fairly new in the sort of eighties, nineties, Australia,

387
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:31,620
Speaker 2: New Zealand. Um, and you know, without boring everyone to tears,

388
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,609
Speaker 2: I got a bit interested in the whole, um, profiling

389
00:18:34,790 --> 00:18:35,550
Speaker 2: area that was a bit new.

390
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Speaker 1: And saying that, I don't think you'll bore people. I

391
00:18:38,940 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that people find fascinating

392
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Speaker 1: about the psychology of people who can be offensive. So

393
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Speaker 1: I'm interested in what you say. And it is something

394
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 1: that's only come in relatively recent time.

395
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Speaker 2: Back in the day, we hadn't even really heard much

396
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:57,170
Speaker 2: about it. Now, You know, there's TV shows, Criminal Minds, and,

397
00:18:57,690 --> 00:19:00,010
Speaker 2: you know, you can look on streaming services at how

398
00:19:00,050 --> 00:19:03,150
Speaker 2: that all started. You know, it came out of the FBI.

399
00:19:03,930 --> 00:19:04,629
Speaker 1: The Mindhunter.

400
00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:07,669
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mindhunter. It came out of the behavioral analysis. And

401
00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:10,170
Speaker 2: it was also, and I understand because, you know, coppers

402
00:19:10,190 --> 00:19:11,990
Speaker 2: are pretty black and white. It was seen as a

403
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:14,540
Speaker 2: little bit of witchcraft, a little bit airy-fairy and things.

404
00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:17,300
Speaker 2: And I think it's a lot more widely embraced now

405
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,340
Speaker 2: than perhaps what it was.

406
00:19:18,420 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

407
00:19:19,250 --> 00:19:22,010
Speaker 2: I mentioned that only because I got quite interested in

408
00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 2: that and it created a bit of a platform, if

409
00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 2: you like, or a springboard. I got asked to do

410
00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:32,400
Speaker 2: a few talks in that space and ended up doing

411
00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:35,060
Speaker 2: a couple of talks over here. And one of the

412
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 2: talks I did, there was a woman from the New

413
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,940
Speaker 2: South Wales Education Department and it coincided at a time

414
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,940
Speaker 2: that they were putting this program together. They used to

415
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,130
Speaker 2: call it Crossroads. It has different names. It was sort

416
00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:48,330
Speaker 2: of like this extracurricular stuff. for kids I think in

417
00:19:48,369 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 2: year 11, year 12, around drugs, alcohol, mental health. And

418
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 2: she was representing the education department, wanted to sort of

419
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 2: try and team up or do a bit of work

420
00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:02,619
Speaker 2: with someone that could fill in some content around sexual

421
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 2: crime consent and that type of thing. So that's That's

422
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,439
Speaker 2: sort of how our paths crossed. And she sent me

423
00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:09,919
Speaker 2: a whole lot of stuff on that.

424
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Speaker 1: So you were still in the cops in New Zealand

425
00:20:12,580 --> 00:20:14,859
Speaker 1: at the time and you did this talk over here. Yeah.

426
00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:18,180
Speaker 2: And long story short, I did a bit of liaison

427
00:20:18,220 --> 00:20:20,939
Speaker 2: with the education department, took a bit of leave that

428
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,619
Speaker 2: took a little bit more than sort of had to

429
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 2: make a decision as to which way I was going

430
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 2: to jump. And yeah, I decided, you know, I'm going

431
00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 2: to have a crack. I'm going to have a crack

432
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,919
Speaker 2: at this. So that was back in 95. So it's

433
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 2: over 30 years ago. And, but, you know, to- To

434
00:20:34,940 --> 00:20:39,770
Speaker 2: walk into a school in Sydney in those days, have

435
00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:42,110
Speaker 2: a meeting with a principal and say, look, how about

436
00:20:42,130 --> 00:20:43,850
Speaker 2: you let me come and talk to all your students

437
00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:46,770
Speaker 2: about sex offenders or sex crime? How does that sound?

438
00:20:47,030 --> 00:20:48,670
Speaker 1: It would be a hard sell.

439
00:20:48,850 --> 00:20:53,090
Speaker 2: So she was a slow start, even with the education

440
00:20:53,109 --> 00:20:56,510
Speaker 2: department's support and things. Nobody had done it. And I

441
00:20:56,550 --> 00:20:59,350
Speaker 2: remember one of the first talks I did, there were

442
00:20:59,470 --> 00:21:02,830
Speaker 2: three primary school principals at the back of the room

443
00:21:02,910 --> 00:21:06,090
Speaker 2: evaluating my talk. And I always And, you know, nothing

444
00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:08,290
Speaker 2: against them at all, but they were sitting in there

445
00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 2: to evaluate my content on sexual crime and things like that.

446
00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:13,740
Speaker 2: That was sort of the test that you had to

447
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,180
Speaker 2: pass to get in. And, you know, when I first

448
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 2: came to Sydney, I was bouncing up in the cross.

449
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,820
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I was thinking about getting you back

450
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: on the podcast for another session, my time on the

451
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,460
Speaker 1: doors at the cross.

452
00:21:26,510 --> 00:21:28,530
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was at the Coliseum up there. You'd be

453
00:21:28,570 --> 00:21:29,330
Speaker 2: familiar with that place.

454
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:29,810
Speaker 1: Very familiar.

455
00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:31,190
Speaker 2: Yeah, right in the middle of the cross in the

456
00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:33,710
Speaker 2: good old days, you know. And I used to work

457
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:38,770
Speaker 2: up there. Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights. And then I'd be

458
00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:40,389
Speaker 2: going into schools during the day.

459
00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 1: It's a sort of yin-yang lifestyle, going into schools.

460
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 2: Exactly. And I was doing a lot of the schools

461
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 2: free of charge just to get my foot in the door.

462
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: And Sydney Morning Herald, funnily enough, years ago, they did

463
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,899
Speaker 2: a story. I don't know how they found out. They

464
00:21:55,940 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 2: did this story about me, and they depicted me in

465
00:21:58,220 --> 00:22:00,900
Speaker 2: this sort of cartoon style of a, It's like this

466
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: bulldog on a door with a sort of collar on

467
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,820
Speaker 2: and then a halo above my head. And it was

468
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,109
Speaker 2: sort of like up the cross sort of bouncing three

469
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,949
Speaker 2: nights a week and then going into sort of schools

470
00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:17,490
Speaker 2: and talking to girls. But it's just, yeah, it's funny,

471
00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:17,750
Speaker 2: isn't it?

472
00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:20,570
Speaker 1: Well, I think with that sort of background, it comes

473
00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: like what I know about speaking to young men and women.

474
00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:27,490
Speaker 1: You've got to have some credibility, otherwise they're going to

475
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:30,169
Speaker 1: switch off. They're told to sit and listen to people

476
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:33,310
Speaker 1: all day. They're at school. So, yeah, if you've got

477
00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: the stories, the fact that you're a cop, you had

478
00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:38,690
Speaker 1: experience in different things, you could talk to them and

479
00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:41,220
Speaker 1: that gets their attention. And I think that's the key

480
00:22:41,260 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: to educating people. You've got to be able to get

481
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,300
Speaker 1: their attention first, otherwise it's going to be lost. But from,

482
00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: and I think it was a school at North Sydney

483
00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: where you first.

484
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:54,859
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had a very forward thinking principal. So I

485
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,340
Speaker 2: did my first talk there, and I still go there

486
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:58,220
Speaker 2: every year.

487
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 1: Tell us, because my understanding is the first lot of lectures,

488
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,510
Speaker 1: it was all to female schools?

489
00:23:05,660 --> 00:23:06,940
Speaker 2: It was, yeah.

490
00:23:07,130 --> 00:23:10,230
Speaker 1: Tell us the messaging that you're giving to female students,

491
00:23:10,270 --> 00:23:13,750
Speaker 1: because I think this is the stuff that people want

492
00:23:13,790 --> 00:23:18,030
Speaker 1: to hear and understand about what sort of information can

493
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:19,450
Speaker 1: we give to young girls. Yeah.

494
00:23:20,210 --> 00:23:23,490
Speaker 2: It's interesting, back at the time, Gary, the education department,

495
00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:29,470
Speaker 2: and I was being governed very much by them, they only, really,

496
00:23:29,510 --> 00:23:31,570
Speaker 2: they would only allow me to talk to girls, which

497
00:23:32,109 --> 00:23:34,580
Speaker 2: you think of that today, it's quite bizarre.

498
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. Why are you talking to girls?

499
00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: It's the young boys that the problem. 100%.

500
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,260
Speaker 2: But I wasn't in a position to push back on that.

501
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: And so I thought, well, I'll just do what I'm

502
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,859
Speaker 2: told to do. So I was going into girls' schools

503
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,939
Speaker 2: and co-ed schools to talk to girls. So I'd start

504
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: at 9 and 8.30, 9 in the morning, and break

505
00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:56,220
Speaker 2: for recess and lunch and finish at 3, 3.30. And

506
00:23:56,260 --> 00:23:58,419
Speaker 2: I'd be in there talking to the, say, year 11

507
00:23:58,420 --> 00:24:02,580
Speaker 2: girls while the guys are outside playing touch footy. And

508
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:08,290
Speaker 2: it was quite bizarre. And then there was a realization, well,

509
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:12,190
Speaker 2: we can't just do this. And it was a total turnaround.

510
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:15,500
Speaker 2: It was like, well- We can't have someone coming and

511
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: just talking to the girls. And I'm like, well, I'm

512
00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: just doing what I'm being told to do. I'm more

513
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,870
Speaker 2: than happy to talk to the boys. Let's put something

514
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:25,490
Speaker 2: together for them. So the girls' program very much started

515
00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:29,430
Speaker 2: out as an extension, I guess, of that profiling stuff

516
00:24:29,470 --> 00:24:33,050
Speaker 2: that I'd done. And the more I studied the mindsets

517
00:24:33,130 --> 00:24:36,820
Speaker 2: of these offenders, the more I could see that there

518
00:24:36,859 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: was some real gold nuggets in amongst all that. that

519
00:24:39,940 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 2: you could impart to those who they targeted. And also,

520
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: a lot of the profiling information that comes out, and

521
00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:49,650
Speaker 2: I've done my own stuff, and I've read a whole

522
00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:56,470
Speaker 2: lot of other stuff, it challenges the conditioning that a

523
00:24:56,530 --> 00:24:59,270
Speaker 2: lot of girls and women would have had with regards

524
00:24:59,350 --> 00:25:01,850
Speaker 2: to what works best if ever, God forbid, you're in

525
00:25:01,869 --> 00:25:05,179
Speaker 2: this situation. So I would go into a school, I'd

526
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: talk about conflict, the psychology behind it. We'd go through

527
00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:12,580
Speaker 2: the law and things. And then I'd sort of, you know,

528
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:15,270
Speaker 2: I'd do an aspect on, say, date rape, which is

529
00:25:15,330 --> 00:25:17,270
Speaker 2: a term that we don't hear as much now, where,

530
00:25:17,670 --> 00:25:20,889
Speaker 2: you know, it's a more social environment, which is, to

531
00:25:20,910 --> 00:25:25,550
Speaker 2: be fair, is infinitely more common than the stranger type confrontation.

532
00:25:26,030 --> 00:25:28,930
Speaker 2: But then I would also, comparatively sort of after lunch,

533
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: do a talk to the girls on, on, Stranger offenders.

534
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:35,570
Speaker 2: And I'd run through maybe half a dozen different guys

535
00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:38,890
Speaker 2: that I'd profiled from Australia, from overseas, and just run

536
00:25:38,930 --> 00:25:42,170
Speaker 2: through that information with the girls. Not telling them what

537
00:25:42,270 --> 00:25:45,150
Speaker 2: to do, but allowing them to hear that and then go, well,

538
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:47,909
Speaker 2: hang on. If this is what these guys do, if

539
00:25:47,930 --> 00:25:50,820
Speaker 2: this is their selection process, if this is what makes it,

540
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:53,740
Speaker 2: why are we being conditioned or told to do this?

541
00:25:54,020 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: Because that's the opposite. And that conditioning is not as

542
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,659
Speaker 2: black and white as people sitting down and telling them.

543
00:26:00,990 --> 00:26:03,030
Speaker 2: it's what they're seeing on TV. It's what they're seeing

544
00:26:03,130 --> 00:26:06,070
Speaker 2: on street. You know, it's sort of don't yell, don't scream,

545
00:26:06,130 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: don't make them angry. Don't do anything. You'll make it worse.

546
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

547
00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 2: Where all the evidence was the polar opposite.

548
00:26:12,140 --> 00:26:13,060
Speaker 1: To the contrary. Yeah.

549
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,620
Speaker 2: And even, I even did at the end of those sessions,

550
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,340
Speaker 2: I'd do a small component on, on physical, uh, physical

551
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 2: stuff with the girls just going through half a dozen

552
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,250
Speaker 2: sort of basic sort of things. And so that's, that's

553
00:26:24,290 --> 00:26:26,330
Speaker 2: how I ran that for, for many, many years. And

554
00:26:26,350 --> 00:26:30,530
Speaker 2: then we started doing the boys sessions, um, And now,

555
00:26:30,670 --> 00:26:33,530
Speaker 2: if I look at my diary now, Gary, it's probably

556
00:26:33,570 --> 00:26:38,250
Speaker 2: split 50-50 with young men, young women, primarily year 10, 11,

557
00:26:38,250 --> 00:26:40,710
Speaker 2: and 12, and then up into university. But I do

558
00:26:40,770 --> 00:26:43,930
Speaker 2: now get quite a lot of requests for year nine students.

559
00:26:44,670 --> 00:26:46,190
Speaker 1: I suppose that's a sign of the times.

560
00:26:46,290 --> 00:26:49,149
Speaker 2: It really is. The stuff I talk about is not

561
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: that much different, but the kids are being exposed to

562
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: stuff so much earlier. But You know, when I talk

563
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,310
Speaker 2: to year nines, it is a subtly different presentation to

564
00:26:57,350 --> 00:27:00,060
Speaker 2: those older students. Yeah.

565
00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:01,179
Speaker 1: Age appropriate for it.

566
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: For sure.

567
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:06,660
Speaker 1: Yeah. I see some of the points that you talk

568
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,460
Speaker 1: with the younger women, like developing the ability to control

569
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,379
Speaker 1: the way we think in a pressure situation. Give us

570
00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: an example of that or a scenario that you would

571
00:27:15,140 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: explain to the students, the female students, what you're talking

572
00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: about there.

573
00:27:18,810 --> 00:27:20,179
Speaker 2: Back in the day when I was doing a lot

574
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,410
Speaker 2: of stuff around, say, a confrontation with a stranger offender,

575
00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:26,970
Speaker 2: one of the things I'd talk about is how you

576
00:27:27,030 --> 00:27:31,109
Speaker 2: react to that situation is not determined at the moment

577
00:27:31,170 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 2: that you're in it. It's determined by the conditioning that

578
00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:34,350
Speaker 2: you take in.

579
00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:34,620
Speaker 1: Yeah.

580
00:27:34,830 --> 00:27:36,670
Speaker 2: Because as you know, you've been in a lot of

581
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:39,630
Speaker 2: these things. That's why police do training, training, training, so

582
00:27:39,670 --> 00:27:42,770
Speaker 2: that when you're in a situation, you've already trained, you've

583
00:27:42,910 --> 00:27:44,670
Speaker 2: tricked your brain, if you like, oh, we've been here.

584
00:27:44,590 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: Before, we're going to do this. Not out of your

585
00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:47,100
Speaker 1: comfort zone.

586
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: So if you find yourself in a high-level confrontational, frightening situation,

587
00:27:51,980 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 2: you'll either, if you're not sure what to do, you'll freeze,

588
00:27:54,740 --> 00:27:58,930
Speaker 2: because it's like, you know, freezing, or you will just

589
00:27:59,050 --> 00:28:01,580
Speaker 2: follow what you've been conditioned to. to do, be that

590
00:28:01,660 --> 00:28:05,580
Speaker 2: right or wrong. So if, if an offender jumps out

591
00:28:05,619 --> 00:28:08,220
Speaker 2: of a car and say, confronts, say a young woman,

592
00:28:08,619 --> 00:28:11,020
Speaker 2: if that young woman has been told, don't yell, don't scream,

593
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,090
Speaker 2: don't do anything to make it worse. Well, that conditioning

594
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,460
Speaker 2: will in a heartbeat come to the surface and that's

595
00:28:16,510 --> 00:28:20,650
Speaker 2: how she'll respond. She'll respond passively. Now that that's just

596
00:28:20,730 --> 00:28:24,410
Speaker 2: a result of conditioning. That's okay. Um, that's not that,

597
00:28:24,650 --> 00:28:26,449
Speaker 2: you know, if you, if you, if you pick up

598
00:28:26,490 --> 00:28:29,030
Speaker 2: a six month old child out of a bassinet and

599
00:28:29,070 --> 00:28:29,790
Speaker 2: they don't know you.

600
00:28:30,010 --> 00:28:30,150
Speaker 1: Yeah.

601
00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:34,730
Speaker 2: They don't respond passively. They reach out. They scream. It's

602
00:28:34,750 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: a natural sort of a response. So I think society

603
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: has been, over time, a little guilty of giving different

604
00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:46,060
Speaker 2: messages to, say, men in conflict than what we give

605
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:46,780
Speaker 2: to women.

606
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. We had a guest on a month or so

607
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,580
Speaker 1: ago that was a victim of a sexual assault, and

608
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: she froze when it was happening. It was a freeze response,

609
00:28:56,940 --> 00:28:59,150
Speaker 1: and we broke that down a little bit. And it

610
00:28:59,190 --> 00:29:02,570
Speaker 1: was almost that she was conditioned to be submissive in

611
00:29:02,590 --> 00:29:06,630
Speaker 1: that if I just don't do anything to antagonize a person,

612
00:29:06,670 --> 00:29:10,510
Speaker 1: it won't get any worse. Yeah. So the messaging you're

613
00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:14,930
Speaker 1: telling these young ladies is that, yeah, you don't have

614
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:16,150
Speaker 1: to go down that path.

615
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:16,930
Speaker 2: There's other options.

616
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: Other options.

617
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: If you can run, run. Yeah. And, you know, my

618
00:29:21,170 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: compass always throughout this whole process was what would I

619
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,300
Speaker 2: tell my– with the knowledge that I've been able to

620
00:29:27,460 --> 00:29:31,410
Speaker 2: accumulate over time, What would I tell my daughter to do?

621
00:29:31,710 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: She's now 28, obviously. But what have I told my 15, 16,

622
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,310
Speaker 2: 17-year-old daughter? If she's walking through Surrey Hills, some guy

623
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: jumps out of a car. to grab her. Would I

624
00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: tell her to do nothing? No, I wouldn't. Anyone who's

625
00:29:45,580 --> 00:29:49,510
Speaker 2: worked in this environment has understanding of some degree of

626
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:54,990
Speaker 2: psychology of these crimes would say, if you can run, run. Run, yell, scream,

627
00:29:55,030 --> 00:29:57,170
Speaker 2: draw attention to the offender. Now, why do we do that?

628
00:29:57,870 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: Because If we can identify the greatest fear that that

629
00:30:01,290 --> 00:30:04,110
Speaker 2: offender has, the greatest fear a sex offender has is

630
00:30:04,150 --> 00:30:08,850
Speaker 2: getting caught, above everything else. They are absolutely terrified of

631
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:13,250
Speaker 2: getting caught. So they will always, always, always take the

632
00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:18,110
Speaker 2: course of least resistance. And the evidence on this is

633
00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:20,650
Speaker 2: pretty much indisputable. You could look at any serial sex

634
00:30:20,670 --> 00:30:23,350
Speaker 2: offender going back to Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Stranger in

635
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:23,710
Speaker 2: the 60s.

636
00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:23,890
Speaker 1: Yeah.

637
00:30:24,670 --> 00:30:28,060
Speaker 2: And look at those that he took off from, those

638
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: that he ran away from. It's the same with any

639
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: of these serial offenders. They will always back away. The

640
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,700
Speaker 2: pattern shows that they back away when they start to think,

641
00:30:39,780 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: if I stay here, I'm going to get caught. Now,

642
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,850
Speaker 2: what then triggers that? If there's an option to run, run.

643
00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:51,210
Speaker 2: Run to a populated location and yell, scream, draw as

644
00:30:51,290 --> 00:30:54,530
Speaker 2: much attention to the offender as you can. The chance

645
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:57,890
Speaker 2: of that offender pursuing someone doing that in a populated

646
00:30:57,970 --> 00:31:01,390
Speaker 2: location like Sydney is so remote, I don't think I've

647
00:31:01,430 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: ever heard of it happening. So that's the best option.

648
00:31:05,820 --> 00:31:08,740
Speaker 1: And I hear you say that, and I understand it,

649
00:31:08,780 --> 00:31:11,810
Speaker 1: but that's the things I've been exposed to in policing.

650
00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:15,900
Speaker 1: But you're saying- Research, it's not just our instinct or

651
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:20,290
Speaker 1: based on our experience. Research is supporting us.

652
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:23,590
Speaker 2: If you look at any serial sex offender, Ted Bundy,

653
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:26,310
Speaker 2: Albert Selva, any of these guys, look at the pattern

654
00:31:26,610 --> 00:31:30,950
Speaker 2: specifically of were they successful 100% of the time with

655
00:31:30,970 --> 00:31:34,490
Speaker 2: those they selected? No, their success rate is quite high, tragically.

656
00:31:34,910 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: It's around 80%. So, okay, what's the distinction between the 80%

657
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: and the 20%? What happened in that 20% of times?

658
00:31:42,890 --> 00:31:47,790
Speaker 2: where they approached that target with the same intention. So

659
00:31:47,890 --> 00:31:50,209
Speaker 2: why did they back away? Why did they take off?

660
00:31:50,510 --> 00:31:53,410
Speaker 2: You'll see it is as clear as day. It'll be

661
00:31:53,550 --> 00:31:58,950
Speaker 2: because the target has done something which has broken that

662
00:31:59,390 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: mental cycle. So, you know, the offender gets out of

663
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,420
Speaker 2: a car, he's targeted somebody. So I even go further

664
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: than that used to say to the girls, um, Let's

665
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: think about why he stopped and targeted you. What does

666
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,660
Speaker 2: he see when he sees you? So let's say offender

667
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,100
Speaker 2: driving around a suburb in Sydney sees a young 16

668
00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:22,620
Speaker 2: year old girl school uniform on her own.

669
00:32:23,270 --> 00:32:23,630
Speaker 1: Okay.

670
00:32:23,790 --> 00:32:25,830
Speaker 2: So why does he stop and target her? Well, because

671
00:32:25,970 --> 00:32:28,790
Speaker 2: he thinks school girl on her own, when I confront her,

672
00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:30,850
Speaker 2: she'll be so terrified. She won't do anything. She's an

673
00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:32,750
Speaker 2: easy target. I can abduct her and I can take

674
00:32:32,810 --> 00:32:35,860
Speaker 2: it somewhere. If that same offender is driving down the

675
00:32:35,890 --> 00:32:38,860
Speaker 2: street and sees you or I, he keeps driving. Now

676
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,690
Speaker 2: people say, well, that's a ridiculous analogy. Well, it actually isn't.

677
00:32:42,730 --> 00:32:45,630
Speaker 2: You and I as males are statistically far, far more

678
00:32:45,690 --> 00:32:48,390
Speaker 2: likely to be confronted by physical violence on the street

679
00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:52,250
Speaker 2: in Sydney than what females are. But we are selected

680
00:32:52,330 --> 00:32:55,290
Speaker 2: for a different reason. So the guy that selects you

681
00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:57,430
Speaker 2: or I, yeah, we're big sort of blokes and stuff,

682
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: he anticipates we'll fight back. That's a scary prospect. So,

683
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: you know, when I've done over the years corporate stuff

684
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:08,740
Speaker 2: with people who are likely to be in physical confrontations,

685
00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:13,890
Speaker 2: I teach males de-escalation skills because that takes- Doing the opposite.

686
00:33:14,030 --> 00:33:17,190
Speaker 2: Do the opposite to the expectation. Because, you know, mate,

687
00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:20,050
Speaker 2: I'm around 100 kilos. If I'm walking through Sydney car

688
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:22,870
Speaker 2: park at the airport and some guy confronts me, he's

689
00:33:22,910 --> 00:33:25,450
Speaker 2: been looking at me, watching me. He'll look at me

690
00:33:25,470 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: and think, I'm going to confront this bloke because I

691
00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:28,460
Speaker 2: reckon he'll have a go, but I reckon I can

692
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: take him.

693
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:29,220
Speaker 1: Yeah.

694
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: You know? Now, that's a frightening offender, you know? So

695
00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: what I would be doing for me in that situation-

696
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:40,180
Speaker 2: Is breaking that cycle by hands up, passive, passive. The

697
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,250
Speaker 2: mindset of a sex offender, serial sex offender, total opposite

698
00:33:43,270 --> 00:33:46,020
Speaker 2: end of the spectrum. He picks that schoolgirl with it.

699
00:33:46,130 --> 00:33:48,670
Speaker 2: He's written a script. They'll often say this in an interview.

700
00:33:48,970 --> 00:33:51,130
Speaker 2: She followed the script that I'd written for her. So

701
00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: he gets out of the car. He starts running toward

702
00:33:54,460 --> 00:33:57,180
Speaker 2: that girl. He has in his mind this idea, schoolgirl

703
00:33:57,220 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: on her own. When I grab her, she'll be so

704
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,459
Speaker 2: terrified I can do it. Now, the problem obviously is,

705
00:34:02,010 --> 00:34:04,850
Speaker 2: That schoolgirl turns around seeing the guy running towards her

706
00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:07,930
Speaker 2: and all her conditioning says, don't run, don't scream, don't yell,

707
00:34:07,970 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: don't make him angry. So to use the term of

708
00:34:11,780 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: the offender, she follows the script. What they're looking for.

709
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: What they're looking for. So what I are saying to

710
00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:22,779
Speaker 2: these young women is, yeah, you have that option. You

711
00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:25,620
Speaker 2: have the option of being passive. You can do that.

712
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: There's no evidence to show that. There is no evidence

713
00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:32,940
Speaker 2: to show that that reduces the likelihood of physical harm.

714
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: It doesn't.

715
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,050
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. And I want to delve very deeply

716
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,810
Speaker 1: into that because I find that side of things fascinating.

717
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:42,910
Speaker 1: Before we do, and we were having a chat the

718
00:34:42,930 --> 00:34:45,190
Speaker 1: other day and what we want to be both conscious of,

719
00:34:45,910 --> 00:34:49,089
Speaker 1: two ex-cops talking and telling females how to behave so

720
00:34:49,110 --> 00:34:50,410
Speaker 1: they don't get attacked.

721
00:34:50,670 --> 00:34:50,830
Speaker 2: Yeah.

722
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: I'm very cautious that we don't get accused of victim

723
00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:58,790
Speaker 1: blaming here. And so let's have the discussion about that.

724
00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:04,470
Speaker 1: What you're saying here is providing strategies to prevent the attack.

725
00:35:06,170 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: In the perfect world, women should be able to walk

726
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: along the street without being attacked. But unfortunately, it's not.

727
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 2: This is a male issue.

728
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

729
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 2: This is a male issue.

730
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: But.

731
00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:19,410
Speaker 2: If my daughter's been confronted by a sex offender, she's

732
00:35:19,450 --> 00:35:21,530
Speaker 2: not going to get out of it by saying to him, stop,

733
00:35:21,550 --> 00:35:24,989
Speaker 2: this is a male issue. So the reality of the

734
00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: situation is, yes, of course, I speak to as many,

735
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,660
Speaker 2: if not more young men than I do young women.

736
00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 2: But the women that I've worked with over the years,

737
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,580
Speaker 2: what I've been asked to talk about is, okay, what

738
00:35:37,620 --> 00:35:40,420
Speaker 2: would my advice be based on all my experience in

739
00:35:40,460 --> 00:35:44,580
Speaker 2: these certain types of situations? And you're right. You are 100% right.

740
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:48,610
Speaker 1: Well, you've done podcasts, you know, I've done podcasts and

741
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: I understand two blokes sitting here talking about this subject.

742
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,620
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just wanted to clarify that. So if

743
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: people are listening or watching, they understand where we're coming from.

744
00:36:00,340 --> 00:36:02,029
Speaker 1: And I think you said that this would be the

745
00:36:02,050 --> 00:36:06,430
Speaker 1: advice I give my daughter. And it's interesting that he's

746
00:36:06,530 --> 00:36:09,529
Speaker 1: flipping the psychology. You talked about, you know, the type

747
00:36:09,570 --> 00:36:13,860
Speaker 1: of offender that might target a bloke. I've said to

748
00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:17,660
Speaker 1: my son and I've said to other young fellas, like

749
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,140
Speaker 1: the typical situation is, and you would have seen this

750
00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:21,739
Speaker 1: at the cross, you could be at a bar and

751
00:36:21,780 --> 00:36:25,250
Speaker 1: someone's looking at you and, what are you looking at, mate?

752
00:36:25,830 --> 00:36:28,509
Speaker 1: And I've said, you can de-escalate that. How do you

753
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:31,810
Speaker 1: de-escalate that? Say, sorry, I didn't mean to. I'm just

754
00:36:31,850 --> 00:36:34,250
Speaker 1: having a bad day. And that's not the response that

755
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:35,670
Speaker 1: they expect and it confuses them.

756
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:35,890
Speaker 2: 100%.

757
00:36:35,890 --> 00:36:39,310
Speaker 1: Because quite often they're not the sharpest pencil in the pack.

758
00:36:39,770 --> 00:36:44,089
Speaker 1: So it diffuses them. Another thing that I tell my

759
00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 1: children and anyone living in the city, walk with confidence. Yes.

760
00:36:49,340 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: What do you mean? And they would laugh when I

761
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: said that when my kids were younger. I want you

762
00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: to walk with confidence when you're walking through the city.

763
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,020
Speaker 1: Because the offenders are trying to target victims that they

764
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:01,700
Speaker 1: think they can get.

765
00:37:01,620 --> 00:37:02,259
Speaker 2: Over the top of.

766
00:37:02,260 --> 00:37:02,380
Speaker 1: 100%.

767
00:37:02,380 --> 00:37:04,100
Speaker 2: There was a really interesting study done, pretty sure it

768
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,649
Speaker 2: was done at Long Bay Prison many, many years ago.

769
00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:09,810
Speaker 2: And amongst a whole lot of other things, they had

770
00:37:09,950 --> 00:37:14,890
Speaker 2: a group of– convicted sex offenders. And they were running

771
00:37:14,930 --> 00:37:17,950
Speaker 2: all these different sort of scenarios with them. And one

772
00:37:17,989 --> 00:37:19,310
Speaker 2: of the things that they did, and I used to

773
00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:23,350
Speaker 2: do this as part of my presentation, is individually they

774
00:37:23,390 --> 00:37:26,410
Speaker 2: brought these offenders into a room and they had, let's say,

775
00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:29,739
Speaker 2: I don't know, seven or eight black and white photographs

776
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: of women depicted. You know, just women walking or doing whatever.

777
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: And each one had a number above it. And the

778
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,100
Speaker 2: offender was brought in, he was asked to look at

779
00:37:39,219 --> 00:37:43,130
Speaker 2: the photographs and The question was asked is when you

780
00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:45,330
Speaker 2: were out and were doing what you were doing, which

781
00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 2: one of these women would you have selected?

782
00:37:47,530 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

783
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,620
Speaker 2: Every offender picked the same photo. Yeah. And every offender

784
00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:54,339
Speaker 2: gave the same reason. You just highlighted it. When they

785
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,660
Speaker 2: were asked, why did you pick that? They saw she

786
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: looks scared. She looks frightened. She'd be an easy target.

787
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,740
Speaker 2: You know, she, she, she wouldn't offer any resistance.

788
00:38:02,060 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

789
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,260
Speaker 2: Now that that's in no way a criticism of people

790
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: who are targeted. It's just giving an insight as to

791
00:38:08,739 --> 00:38:11,770
Speaker 2: what the offender thinks when he targets you. See, I

792
00:38:11,830 --> 00:38:15,029
Speaker 2: see that as a weakness in the offender. But these

793
00:38:15,070 --> 00:38:20,270
Speaker 2: offenders are depicted on TV, Netflix stand, big, strong, powerful individuals.

794
00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: The average size sex offender, serial sex offender in the

795
00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:27,339
Speaker 2: prison system is a tiny sort of wizened up, sort

796
00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: of terrified of his own shadow type of individual. And

797
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: so the Hollywood depiction, which creates the conditioning, plays into

798
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,620
Speaker 2: the the idea that these are big, strong, powerful individuals.

799
00:38:42,140 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: And the worst thing you could ever do as a

800
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: woman targeted by them is to challenge that.

801
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

802
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,890
Speaker 2: Well, they're not big, strong, powerful individuals. They're weak, insipid, frightened.

803
00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

804
00:38:52,340 --> 00:38:54,469
Speaker 2: They're doing what they're doing to try and make up

805
00:38:54,510 --> 00:38:56,650
Speaker 2: for a lifelong perception of inadequacy.

806
00:38:56,670 --> 00:38:56,810
Speaker 1: Yeah.

807
00:38:57,030 --> 00:39:01,050
Speaker 2: So they, it's, it's like, it's like make sexual harassment.

808
00:39:01,070 --> 00:39:03,469
Speaker 2: I've got 30 odd corporate clients. I go and I

809
00:39:03,489 --> 00:39:06,049
Speaker 2: do a whole lot of talk. Um, We know this.

810
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:10,779
Speaker 2: The bloke in the workplace who makes snide sexual comment to, say,

811
00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: the new young female staff member, if she stands up

812
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: to him and gets in his face, he'll never do

813
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,420
Speaker 2: it again. He'll back away. We sit in the pub,

814
00:39:19,780 --> 00:39:23,430
Speaker 2: the idiot who the young woman walks past and some

815
00:39:23,710 --> 00:39:27,310
Speaker 2: bloke makes some stupid comment towards her. She stops, turns around,

816
00:39:28,090 --> 00:39:29,930
Speaker 2: what was that you said? You want to say that again?

817
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,980
Speaker 2: And he backs away. He suddenly loses all his credibility.

818
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: It's that same mindset. And I'm not saying it's right, wrong,

819
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: or indifferent. And I'm just saying that's what you're dealing

820
00:39:41,180 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: with when we're talking about sex crimes. And the idea.

821
00:39:48,190 --> 00:39:50,930
Speaker 2: There's some really interesting studies done by the FBI that–

822
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 2: because there's always been this argument that tragically in these–

823
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,340
Speaker 2: and these are very, very rare cases. Girls and women

824
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,460
Speaker 2: who fight back against unarmed serial sex offenders will get

825
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:05,870
Speaker 2: hurt more than those who don't. So that was a subject–

826
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,299
Speaker 2: has been subject to many, many studies. That was found

827
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,310
Speaker 2: to be quite mythical. They found– the FBI found that

828
00:40:11,370 --> 00:40:15,540
Speaker 2: the major contributing factor– that determines the amount of violence

829
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,100
Speaker 2: inflicted upon a victim of that type of crime is

830
00:40:18,140 --> 00:40:21,620
Speaker 2: the amount of time the offender can stay with the victim.

831
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:22,900
Speaker 1: Right. That's interesting.

832
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,100
Speaker 2: The longer they are there, the greater the violence becomes.

833
00:40:26,580 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: So what makes them stay longer? A feeling that they're

834
00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:31,660
Speaker 2: not going to get caught. They're in control. You know,

835
00:40:31,739 --> 00:40:36,049
Speaker 2: so again, when we break it all down, it sort

836
00:40:36,090 --> 00:40:38,049
Speaker 2: of makes a lot of sense, but it only makes

837
00:40:38,130 --> 00:40:40,670
Speaker 2: sense when you go all the way back and understand

838
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:43,060
Speaker 2: the mindset of that offender. I often Used to say

839
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: to the girls, you know, using the card, bloke in

840
00:40:46,420 --> 00:40:49,860
Speaker 2: the car is an analogy. If he saw you, if

841
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 2: he had a crystal ball on the dashboard of his

842
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: car and he could see into the future and he

843
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: saw that when he stopped his car, jumped out and

844
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,540
Speaker 2: grabbed you, that you would yell, scream, run, physically fight back.

845
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: Every single sex offender I have ever profiled would keep driving.

846
00:41:07,540 --> 00:41:07,700
Speaker 1: Yeah.

847
00:41:08,010 --> 00:41:10,490
Speaker 2: Every one of them. But he doesn't have that crystal ball.

848
00:41:10,890 --> 00:41:13,489
Speaker 2: He has in his mind a belief that he's going

849
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:17,730
Speaker 2: to succeed here. And they're usually right because that's the

850
00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: reaction that they usually get because this conditioning is very,

851
00:41:20,820 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: very strong.

852
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,060
Speaker 1: It very much is conditioned. And when you talk about

853
00:41:24,540 --> 00:41:29,250
Speaker 1: the statistically– in situations if people are fighting back, the

854
00:41:29,310 --> 00:41:33,850
Speaker 1: injuries or the violence is not escalated. It escalates if

855
00:41:34,090 --> 00:41:35,690
Speaker 1: the longer they spend. It is.

856
00:41:35,790 --> 00:41:39,510
Speaker 2: And I'd often get, and I really enjoyed getting these questions.

857
00:41:39,630 --> 00:41:41,489
Speaker 2: When you talk to students about this, you're taking them

858
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:43,770
Speaker 2: into an area they've never been into before. And they're

859
00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:47,350
Speaker 2: really genuinely going, I've never heard this before. And then

860
00:41:47,390 --> 00:41:51,130
Speaker 2: you'd get questions hanging onto some of that conditioning. And

861
00:41:51,170 --> 00:41:53,969
Speaker 2: they'd say, oh, but I've been told if someone's trying

862
00:41:53,989 --> 00:41:56,899
Speaker 2: to drag you into a car, to take you somewhere

863
00:41:56,980 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 2: to literally, you know, do something horrendous to you. Yeah.

864
00:42:00,940 --> 00:42:05,060
Speaker 2: Don't do anything because it could get worse. And I'd say,

865
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,020
Speaker 2: worse than what? We're at the can't get any worse basket.

866
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: We've arrived there. But this was questions from young women.

867
00:42:14,910 --> 00:42:18,750
Speaker 2: And great questions because they're saying, but if you're dragged

868
00:42:18,790 --> 00:42:20,790
Speaker 2: into a car by someone who's going to take you

869
00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:25,060
Speaker 2: somewhere isolated and commit horrendous crimes against you and don't

870
00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:27,180
Speaker 2: do anything to stop that because it could get worse.

871
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,010
Speaker 1: Well, I think the fact that you're backing your opinions

872
00:42:30,070 --> 00:42:33,950
Speaker 1: up with the research is important. Yeah. Because I would imagine,

873
00:42:34,130 --> 00:42:37,810
Speaker 1: and I'll ask you, have you ever had pushback when

874
00:42:37,830 --> 00:42:39,510
Speaker 1: you deliver this type of message?

875
00:42:39,630 --> 00:42:40,930
Speaker 2: Oh, 100%.

876
00:42:40,930 --> 00:42:43,149
Speaker 1: Why are you telling the women that they've got to defend,

877
00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:45,299
Speaker 1: why should they have to defend themselves? Yeah, yeah. But again,

878
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: we keep coming back, this is not victim blaming.

879
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

880
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:51,020
Speaker 1: This is just understanding this world that we live in. Yes.

881
00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:54,730
Speaker 2: I understand that and I get what that means. but

882
00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:58,620
Speaker 2: I've always felt strongly enough that, well, what I'm doing

883
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,900
Speaker 2: is important. Um, I don't get that message from those

884
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,140
Speaker 2: who have attended my seminars and come out of them.

885
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,380
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm a male and yeah, I'm an ex-cop

886
00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:07,510
Speaker 2: or I can't change that.

887
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:07,819
Speaker 1: Yeah.

888
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,170
Speaker 2: But, and I don't say that I do this better

889
00:43:11,469 --> 00:43:13,850
Speaker 2: than anyone else. I just probably have done it over

890
00:43:13,890 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: the years differently. And, um, And often, for example, in

891
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,819
Speaker 2: co-ed schools, I ask most co-ed schools that I go into,

892
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,420
Speaker 2: I ask them to bring the boys and the girls

893
00:43:22,540 --> 00:43:25,900
Speaker 2: in together for the talk that I do on sexual crime.

894
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: Because it's good for the boys to hear this in

895
00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 2: the presence of the girls and vice versa. So those

896
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,740
Speaker 2: talks that I'm doing more commonly now are very focused

897
00:43:37,070 --> 00:43:40,830
Speaker 2: on education around consent, what consent is. We can talk

898
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:43,890
Speaker 2: a bit more about that. Breaking it down, definitions around

899
00:43:44,489 --> 00:43:47,330
Speaker 2: what's sexual assault mean, what does sexual intercourse mean, and

900
00:43:47,350 --> 00:43:49,690
Speaker 2: all that type of thing. So I guess one thing

901
00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:52,130
Speaker 2: that the talks that I do have sort of evolved

902
00:43:52,190 --> 00:43:59,430
Speaker 2: to has been more a seminar presentation around legal terminology,

903
00:43:59,570 --> 00:44:04,109
Speaker 2: understanding where the lines are, what the consequences are, where

904
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:07,169
Speaker 2: people can lay charges. And the interesting thing that comes

905
00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:13,230
Speaker 2: out of that is I would say 80 to 90%

906
00:44:13,230 --> 00:44:15,940
Speaker 2: of young women who come forward after my seminars to

907
00:44:16,140 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 2: tell me they've been subjected to a sexual offense.

908
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:18,620
Speaker 1: Yeah.

909
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,900
Speaker 2: Tell me that they didn't know that what happened to the,

910
00:44:21,940 --> 00:44:23,859
Speaker 2: was a sexual offense or what the offense was prior

911
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 2: to coming into the seminar.

912
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,020
Speaker 1: And, and that's because of the legal definition is different

913
00:44:28,060 --> 00:44:30,529
Speaker 1: from what they get taught in the biology class or.

914
00:44:30,550 --> 00:44:31,650
Speaker 1: A hundred percent.

915
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:34,990
Speaker 2: A hundred percent. And everyone has a, a, a good

916
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:39,050
Speaker 2: sort of grasp or familiarity with terminology. Like for example,

917
00:44:39,070 --> 00:44:39,730
Speaker 2: like consent.

918
00:44:39,830 --> 00:44:40,009
Speaker 1: Yeah.

919
00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:44,530
Speaker 2: If, Two people want to have an intimate exchange. One initiates,

920
00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:47,850
Speaker 2: the other one has to consent. That's pretty basic. But

921
00:44:47,890 --> 00:44:50,550
Speaker 2: when you peel the onion on that, and even at

922
00:44:50,989 --> 00:44:53,029
Speaker 2: university lectures, if you peel the onion on that and

923
00:44:53,070 --> 00:44:56,260
Speaker 2: I say, okay, so if an intimate exchange requires consent,

924
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: tell me what consent is. Because it's a legal construct.

925
00:45:01,380 --> 00:45:04,220
Speaker 2: It comes out of the Crimes Act. And yes, of course,

926
00:45:04,340 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: of course, there is room. In schools to have moral

927
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,420
Speaker 2: and ethical discussions around consent and around relationships, 100%. But

928
00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:16,050
Speaker 2: that's not the space that I occupy. I talk about

929
00:45:16,850 --> 00:45:19,970
Speaker 2: what it means legally. And so the students can understand

930
00:45:19,989 --> 00:45:23,950
Speaker 2: the law and then run situations through it. And so

931
00:45:24,010 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 2: when you ask students to tell you what consent means, respectfully,

932
00:45:27,460 --> 00:45:30,819
Speaker 2: most of them don't know. Look, most people our age

933
00:45:30,980 --> 00:45:34,660
Speaker 2: would struggle to accurately define how consent's defined in the

934
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:35,140
Speaker 2: Crimes Act.

935
00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:38,950
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it becomes, and quite often you see matters

936
00:45:39,010 --> 00:45:42,170
Speaker 1: running through the court on the sexual nature and it

937
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:43,890
Speaker 1: invariably comes down to consent.

938
00:45:44,070 --> 00:45:47,290
Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. And even the term sexual intercourse.

939
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:48,130
Speaker 1: Yeah.

940
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:50,730
Speaker 2: Everyone knows the biological definition.

941
00:45:50,910 --> 00:45:51,049
Speaker 1: Yeah.

942
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:53,150
Speaker 2: A lot of people aren't even aware that there is

943
00:45:53,190 --> 00:45:56,609
Speaker 2: a totally different legal definition, let alone what it is.

944
00:45:57,370 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: So most young women that I speak to who have been,

945
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,089
Speaker 2: God forbid, subjected to sexual intercourse without consent will be

946
00:46:06,190 --> 00:46:08,750
Speaker 2: told by friends that they seek advice from that they

947
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:13,299
Speaker 2: haven't been. Yeah. And the fundamental thing I see there

948
00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: is friends, well-meaning friends with good intent, but they're 16, 17.

949
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 2: They listen to this girlfriend. She tells them what happened

950
00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 2: to her, say, at a party on the weekend, and

951
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,700
Speaker 2: it involves an allegation of sexual intercourse without consent. The

952
00:46:28,739 --> 00:46:32,230
Speaker 2: friends will then run what happened through their friend through

953
00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:37,810
Speaker 2: the exceedingly narrow biological definitions. Now, I go into 150

954
00:46:37,810 --> 00:46:41,450
Speaker 2: secondary schools, and the biological definition of sexual intercourse is

955
00:46:41,469 --> 00:46:43,009
Speaker 2: the same in all those schools, the same in all

956
00:46:43,050 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 2: those textbooks. It's very narrow. Biology defines sexual intercourse can

957
00:46:46,660 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: only occur through penile penetration for procreation. That's fine. I

958
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,779
Speaker 2: don't have a problem with that. But lay that alongside

959
00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:59,660
Speaker 2: the legal definition, and there's absolutely no comparison. So when

960
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,220
Speaker 2: young people hear, no, no, under the law, you want

961
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 2: to quote Section 61, New South Wales Crimes Act, Sexual

962
00:47:05,380 --> 00:47:09,790
Speaker 2: intercourse legally is penetration to a sexual area with anything

963
00:47:09,850 --> 00:47:12,430
Speaker 2: at all. Yeah. Any part of a person's body used

964
00:47:12,469 --> 00:47:16,070
Speaker 2: for penetration, anything held or manipulated. And then it goes further.

965
00:47:16,489 --> 00:47:18,950
Speaker 2: Sexual intercourse includes the act of performing oral sex.

966
00:47:19,130 --> 00:47:19,290
Speaker 1: Yeah.

967
00:47:19,590 --> 00:47:23,010
Speaker 2: Now, you drop that into a seminar with 200 16

968
00:47:23,010 --> 00:47:23,810
Speaker 2: and 17-year-olds.

969
00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:24,989
Speaker 1: Yeah. Just that.

970
00:47:25,070 --> 00:47:29,020
Speaker 2: And they're like going, oh, hang on. This is totally

971
00:47:29,060 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 2: different to what I thought.

972
00:47:30,580 --> 00:47:31,020
Speaker 1: Yeah.

973
00:47:31,340 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: And when we look again at research for the young

974
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,419
Speaker 2: people that I present my seminars to, if we look

975
00:47:36,460 --> 00:47:40,630
Speaker 2: at intercourse without consent, number one most common form of

976
00:47:40,690 --> 00:47:44,710
Speaker 2: sexual intercourse without consent committed against young women 15 to 21,

977
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:47,739
Speaker 2: that's the high-risk age group, is is a young woman

978
00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:49,860
Speaker 2: penetrated sexually by a guy using his fingers.

979
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: Digital penetration.

980
00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:52,420
Speaker 2: Digital penetration.

981
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,260
Speaker 1: And I could imagine how that gets confused in the

982
00:47:55,820 --> 00:47:59,460
Speaker 1: talk around the schoolyard. 100%. Look, he didn't rape me.

983
00:47:59,540 --> 00:48:01,779
Speaker 1: Even the word rape is something that we don't use

984
00:48:01,820 --> 00:48:02,500
Speaker 1: in New South Wales.

985
00:48:02,540 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: The word rape was thrown out of the Crimes Act

986
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:09,530
Speaker 2: in 1981. So circling back around, when I go into schools,

987
00:48:09,870 --> 00:48:12,049
Speaker 2: what I think is really important for the students I'm

988
00:48:12,130 --> 00:48:15,189
Speaker 2: talking to, males and females, is that they walk away

989
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:19,350
Speaker 2: with real clarity about what consent is, what sexual assault is,

990
00:48:19,469 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: what unlawful sexual touching means. Goodness me. Unlawful sexual touching

991
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,380
Speaker 2: is a term that most people don't even know exists.

992
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,259
Speaker 2: It is one of the most common disclosures I get.

993
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,540
Speaker 2: It's one of the most common forms of sexual crime

994
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:32,819
Speaker 2: committed at co-ed high schools.

995
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. But if they're following the terminology that's widely accepted

996
00:48:38,020 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: in the community, they're not even aware that they've been

997
00:48:40,580 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted. No.

998
00:48:43,340 --> 00:48:46,469
Speaker 2: If you touch a person to a sexual area in

999
00:48:46,510 --> 00:48:50,010
Speaker 2: New South Wales without their consent, well, that's unlawful sexual touching.

1000
00:48:50,030 --> 00:48:51,470
Speaker 2: And nowadays they used to call it indecent assault.

1001
00:48:51,590 --> 00:48:51,730
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1002
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:56,190
Speaker 2: It changed the name and that carries five years imprisonment. Now,

1003
00:48:56,530 --> 00:48:59,570
Speaker 2: when you see that occurring in environments where there's a

1004
00:48:59,570 --> 00:49:03,390
Speaker 2: lot of young people, almost without exception- The person who

1005
00:49:03,450 --> 00:49:06,299
Speaker 2: comes forward to tell me about that says, I had

1006
00:49:06,500 --> 00:49:10,540
Speaker 2: absolutely no idea that that was even a crime. Yeah.

1007
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: They talk to each other about it. And I say,

1008
00:49:13,820 --> 00:49:15,489
Speaker 2: and so you'll have a bit of a chat to them. Like,

1009
00:49:15,930 --> 00:49:17,730
Speaker 2: so just to be clear, someone has done this to you.

1010
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:18,010
Speaker 1: Yes.

1011
00:49:18,450 --> 00:49:19,930
Speaker 2: What have they done? Oh, well, you know, when you explain.

1012
00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:23,180
Speaker 2: this crime and I give an example of what unlawful

1013
00:49:23,219 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: sexual touching is, it would be me touching another person

1014
00:49:26,500 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 2: to a sexual area, just touching without consent. So if

1015
00:49:28,739 --> 00:49:32,210
Speaker 2: that's a female breasts between the legs, even backside, outside clothing,

1016
00:49:32,250 --> 00:49:36,489
Speaker 2: inside clothing, that's unlawful sexual touching, making someone touch me

1017
00:49:36,570 --> 00:49:39,310
Speaker 2: sexually without consent. So as a male between the legs

1018
00:49:39,350 --> 00:49:43,460
Speaker 2: over clothing, I Rubbing against someone sexually is unlawful sexual touching.

1019
00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:46,859
Speaker 2: I have students come up to me and say, I've

1020
00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 2: had all of that happen to me, but I had

1021
00:49:49,460 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 2: no idea until 10 minutes ago. It's happened sort of repeatedly,

1022
00:49:54,780 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: and then you'll say, well, the person who's done it

1023
00:49:57,450 --> 00:49:58,670
Speaker 2: to you, do you know if they do it to

1024
00:49:58,690 --> 00:50:01,109
Speaker 2: anyone else? Yeah, does it to all these, you know?

1025
00:50:01,530 --> 00:50:04,969
Speaker 2: And then you go even further with that, and you

1026
00:50:05,010 --> 00:50:09,390
Speaker 2: and I know the person who does that stuff It's

1027
00:50:09,410 --> 00:50:12,149
Speaker 2: just a laugh. It's no big deal. It's like, well,

1028
00:50:12,310 --> 00:50:13,270
Speaker 2: it's a criminal offense.

1029
00:50:13,850 --> 00:50:17,490
Speaker 1: And that's the messaging that not just for the victim,

1030
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:20,779
Speaker 1: we need to get that across to the perpetrator.

1031
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,420
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when I talk to the boys, I talk

1032
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:24,779
Speaker 2: to the boys about a whole range of things. But

1033
00:50:24,820 --> 00:50:28,419
Speaker 2: these are the things that I talk about. And I say,

1034
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,810
Speaker 2: you need to be very, very cautious that what you

1035
00:50:32,890 --> 00:50:35,390
Speaker 2: consider to be behavior, which is not a big deal,

1036
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: mildly amusing and I get a few taps on the

1037
00:50:38,340 --> 00:50:41,580
Speaker 2: backs from my mates. In this instance, it's a criminal offence,

1038
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 2: which is a sexual crime punishable by imprisonment.

1039
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 1: And drumming that into them. So the victims know their

1040
00:50:47,940 --> 00:50:54,430
Speaker 1: rights and the perpetrators know the consequences. I think it's

1041
00:50:54,469 --> 00:50:57,069
Speaker 1: so important, the stuff that you're getting across. And it

1042
00:50:57,150 --> 00:50:59,969
Speaker 1: is a misconception and we follow the media and just

1043
00:51:00,310 --> 00:51:04,299
Speaker 1: society's norms, but yeah. A rape, I guarantee you, speak

1044
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,580
Speaker 1: to most people, they think a rape would conjure up

1045
00:51:06,700 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: one image. Yes. Other than that, they wouldn't think of

1046
00:51:09,989 --> 00:51:11,650
Speaker 1: all the other offences that are being committed. 100%.

1047
00:51:11,650 --> 00:51:14,290
Speaker 2: And it's really interesting too, isn't it? And one of

1048
00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:17,009
Speaker 2: the things I'll do with students in my talk is

1049
00:51:17,570 --> 00:51:21,230
Speaker 2: right at the very start, I'll talk about, I'll break

1050
00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:23,910
Speaker 2: down some gender risk profiling for them, which is interesting

1051
00:51:23,950 --> 00:51:26,290
Speaker 2: for them to hear, where I'll say, if I'm talking to, say,

1052
00:51:26,310 --> 00:51:29,050
Speaker 2: let's say a co-ed group, 200 students, year 10 or

1053
00:51:29,090 --> 00:51:32,890
Speaker 2: year 11. I'm mindful of the fact that my content

1054
00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:35,380
Speaker 2: lands differently for different folks. And that's not always on

1055
00:51:35,420 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: a gender line. But I always give a heads up

1056
00:51:39,140 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: warning in my talk that this content could be very

1057
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,859
Speaker 2: confronting if at any time you feel like you need

1058
00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 2: a bit of a breather. I'm also mindful that for

1059
00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: some of those young men sitting in there, in their

1060
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,779
Speaker 2: mind is like, hang on, why does the school think

1061
00:51:52,820 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: they need to bring some ex-copper in to talk to

1062
00:51:56,060 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 2: me about sex crimes?

1063
00:51:57,820 --> 00:51:57,950
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1064
00:51:59,070 --> 00:52:02,569
Speaker 2: Do they assume I'm running around? My take on that

1065
00:52:02,670 --> 00:52:06,250
Speaker 2: is the same as the motivation behind me sharing this

1066
00:52:06,310 --> 00:52:08,710
Speaker 2: information with my son when he was younger. It's not

1067
00:52:08,730 --> 00:52:10,609
Speaker 2: because I think you're going to do it. It's because

1068
00:52:10,650 --> 00:52:13,049
Speaker 2: I think you're entitled to this knowledge. And without it,

1069
00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 2: you could potentially cross the line that you don't even

1070
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:19,380
Speaker 2: know exists. And the boys are just as entitled to

1071
00:52:19,420 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: this knowledge as the girls. And one thing I say

1072
00:52:22,540 --> 00:52:25,819
Speaker 2: to the boys is, sitting here in my talk, let's

1073
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,029
Speaker 2: say year 11, you're at a very low risk to

1074
00:52:28,070 --> 00:52:30,710
Speaker 2: be targeted for a sexual crime because of your age.

1075
00:52:31,050 --> 00:52:32,830
Speaker 2: Now you're sort of singing to the choir a bit there,

1076
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:36,290
Speaker 2: but it's part of saying to the boys, that's not

1077
00:52:36,330 --> 00:52:38,630
Speaker 2: always been the case. Your high risk age to be

1078
00:52:38,670 --> 00:52:41,489
Speaker 2: targeted for sexual crime was back at primary school. Now

1079
00:52:41,530 --> 00:52:45,070
Speaker 2: this doesn't mean girls can't be targeted at primary school. Tragically,

1080
00:52:45,110 --> 00:52:46,730
Speaker 2: of course they can be, but I'm just talking to

1081
00:52:46,750 --> 00:52:49,189
Speaker 2: the boys. So I'll say, boys, if I was doing

1082
00:52:49,230 --> 00:52:52,990
Speaker 2: this talk to 200 year three, year four, year five students,

1083
00:52:53,410 --> 00:52:55,670
Speaker 2: the young boys in that audience are in the highest

1084
00:52:55,730 --> 00:52:58,110
Speaker 2: risk age group to be targeted for a sexual offense.

1085
00:52:58,770 --> 00:53:01,450
Speaker 2: Then if we peel the onion on that, the profile

1086
00:53:01,469 --> 00:53:03,770
Speaker 2: of the offender who will usually commit that offense is

1087
00:53:03,969 --> 00:53:06,420
Speaker 2: as an adult male in a position of care or control.

1088
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,620
Speaker 2: So this covers a fair bit of ground for the

1089
00:53:09,660 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 2: kids too. And you can say to them, so what

1090
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 2: we know about sexual crime is it can be male

1091
00:53:15,940 --> 00:53:18,219
Speaker 2: to female, it can be female to male, it can

1092
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: be male to male, it can be female to female.

1093
00:53:20,660 --> 00:53:22,510
Speaker 2: But the law is blind to that. It doesn't treat

1094
00:53:23,180 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 2: one ingredient any more heavily than the other. I said,

1095
00:53:25,980 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: if you roll back, if you look at, if you

1096
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,910
Speaker 2: speak to, um, say police that work in general sex

1097
00:53:31,969 --> 00:53:36,530
Speaker 2: crime investigation, it's primarily male to female. When you speak

1098
00:53:36,550 --> 00:53:39,510
Speaker 2: to police who work in child protection and child sex crime,

1099
00:53:39,930 --> 00:53:42,490
Speaker 2: they pick up a lot of male to male investigations

1100
00:53:42,570 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 2: because they're working on behalf of those little fellas. So

1101
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 2: I said, but when those little guys are in year

1102
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: 11 coming into my talk, you're at low risk. Then

1103
00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:52,330
Speaker 2: I talk about the girls. So boys, let's put you

1104
00:53:52,350 --> 00:53:53,220
Speaker 2: on the shelf for a moment.

1105
00:53:53,260 --> 00:53:54,899
Speaker 1: The girls are at the higher risk at that stage.

1106
00:53:54,940 --> 00:53:58,580
Speaker 2: Yeah, for the young women, high risk age 15 to 21.

1107
00:53:58,580 --> 00:53:59,820
Speaker 2: So all the girls I speak to are in the

1108
00:53:59,860 --> 00:54:02,779
Speaker 2: high risk age, and they're quite confronted to hear how

1109
00:54:02,820 --> 00:54:05,780
Speaker 2: high that risk is. And Australia has amongst the highest

1110
00:54:05,820 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 2: sexual crime rate of any surveyed country in the Western world.

1111
00:54:09,140 --> 00:54:14,819
Speaker 2: And most recognised reputable studies in Australia, if you ask

1112
00:54:14,930 --> 00:54:16,810
Speaker 2: what is the high risk age for girls and women,

1113
00:54:16,810 --> 00:54:21,350
Speaker 2: 15 to 21. Most big studies would say for every

1114
00:54:21,350 --> 00:54:23,230
Speaker 2: 100 young women I present to in that age group,

1115
00:54:24,110 --> 00:54:26,250
Speaker 2: up to 25 of them will experience some form of

1116
00:54:26,290 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 2: sexual crime in that six-year time frame. Now, that's not

1117
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: always at the top end of that sexual crime spectrum.

1118
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: It's some of this other stuff as well. But that's 25%

1119
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: of our female population.

1120
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:36,460
Speaker 1: Frightening statistic.

1121
00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 2: If you peel the onion on that again and you ask,

1122
00:54:38,780 --> 00:54:41,450
Speaker 2: because I'll ask this, kids ask this, well, who's most

1123
00:54:41,570 --> 00:54:44,990
Speaker 2: likely to commit a sexual offense against a young woman,

1124
00:54:45,150 --> 00:54:47,110
Speaker 2: young girl in year 11? It's not a stranger.

1125
00:54:47,550 --> 00:54:47,670
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1126
00:54:47,860 --> 00:54:50,469
Speaker 2: It's a young bloke, similar age, around their same year group,

1127
00:54:50,550 --> 00:54:52,990
Speaker 2: who they know socially, who they thought they could trust.

1128
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:56,790
Speaker 2: And that's the fact. That's it. Now, that's not me

1129
00:54:57,310 --> 00:55:00,390
Speaker 2: saying all young men are running around committing sex offenses.

1130
00:55:00,710 --> 00:55:07,169
Speaker 2: It's me saying someone is. These statistics don't create themselves.

1131
00:55:07,730 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 2: So just that at the start of a presentation to

1132
00:55:11,340 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 2: young people is like, okay, we need to have a

1133
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:16,940
Speaker 2: chat about this.

1134
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, it's education, but giving the education in an

1135
00:55:21,460 --> 00:55:25,379
Speaker 1: area that's quite often not spoken about. And yeah, statistically,

1136
00:55:25,420 --> 00:55:30,370
Speaker 1: as you're saying, young men in the early years when

1137
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:34,770
Speaker 1: they're prepubescent, they're the most likely to be most susceptible

1138
00:55:34,810 --> 00:55:38,750
Speaker 1: to being victims. So yeah, all this information is handy

1139
00:55:38,770 --> 00:55:41,549
Speaker 1: information to have. And that just makes people think about it.

1140
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:44,489
Speaker 1: And when I say people, the students start And I'm

1141
00:55:44,550 --> 00:55:47,830
Speaker 1: sure after you finish your talk, the conversation in the schoolyard,

1142
00:55:47,870 --> 00:55:49,330
Speaker 1: they'd all be talking about it. Yeah.

1143
00:55:49,390 --> 00:55:51,830
Speaker 2: And you hope to, like, you know, you mentioned this before, um,

1144
00:55:51,930 --> 00:55:54,230
Speaker 2: you know, not all of them, um, will have a

1145
00:55:54,310 --> 00:55:57,430
Speaker 2: relationship with mums and dads that's open to that. But, um,

1146
00:55:57,890 --> 00:56:00,500
Speaker 2: I get a lot of feedback from teachers in the

1147
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,660
Speaker 2: schools I go into whose sons or daughters at other

1148
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 2: schools have done my talk and they come home and

1149
00:56:05,260 --> 00:56:08,700
Speaker 2: they're all, all full of chat about this. I, um,

1150
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 2: My neighbour's son is in year 12 and I presented

1151
00:56:11,780 --> 00:56:13,580
Speaker 2: a seminar to him at a boys' school in Sydney

1152
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:15,820
Speaker 2: two weeks ago and she sent me a text and said,

1153
00:56:15,940 --> 00:56:17,700
Speaker 2: sat at the dinner table and he just didn't stop

1154
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,450
Speaker 2: talking about this stuff. And she said it's really good.

1155
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:24,589
Speaker 1: Well, they have a hunger for it, don't they? They do. Yeah,

1156
00:56:24,670 --> 00:56:27,129
Speaker 1: it's such a big part of their life. And so

1157
00:56:27,270 --> 00:56:30,910
Speaker 1: I can imagine why they are interested. Let's take a break. Importantly,

1158
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:34,290
Speaker 1: we've talked about the messaging that you're giving to young women.

1159
00:56:34,590 --> 00:56:37,330
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the messaging that we need to put

1160
00:56:37,390 --> 00:56:39,730
Speaker 1: on to young men to educate them.

1161
00:56:39,750 --> 00:56:41,379
Speaker 2: I'm enjoying having a chat.

1162
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:41,899
Speaker 1: Okay. Cheers.

1163
00:56:42,020 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 2: Cheers.

1164
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:42,460
Speaker 1: Cheers.