WEBVTT - Episode 19: The Calling 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains coarse 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.000 you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. There is 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.559 a smoking garden in this case, one piece of the 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.479 puzzle which could change everything. The piece is black and 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.800 white and it's always been blindingly obvious. It is data 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:59.280 for local telephone calls. John's consistent story since he first 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.640 arted it to stunned Michelle and Andy Reid in the 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.720 Shire on a Monday afternoon, May seventeen, nineteen ninety three, 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.560 is that Bronwin went into the bedroom at Sandstone Crescent 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.720 and made a couple of telephone calls the night before. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.120 A car soon arrived, John says, and he heard that 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:22.040 car come to the house, but he didn't look at it. Bronwin, 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.760 he says, then walked out of the house. The car 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.679 drove away. John says he heard that happen too, and 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:34.520 Bromwin was never seen again. Near the start of episode fifteen, 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.040 you heard a part of John Winfield's nineteen ninety eight 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.680 interview in which he disclosed some things about local phone 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:46.119 calls to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor, but all. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.600 I know is that she went in the bedroom and 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:53.840 that it was Graham. That was Graham told me that 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.840 where the phone calls were going, because I was surprised 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.600 when he told me, because I didn't know you could 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.720 trace local phone calls, and I had no idea you 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:06.880 could do it, and then he told me you could, 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:08.400 and he did it. 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:13.680 You know. According to what John told detective Glen Taylor 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:19.000 in nineteen ninety eight, Bromman's purported calls were actually traced 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:23.680 by a detective Discan back in nineteen ninety three, and Discan, 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:29.080 according to John, had even confirmed this to John. John 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:33.120 claimed in nineteen ninety eight, while sitting opposite Glen Taylor, 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.200 that detective Discn had also told. 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.160 Him where the phone calls were going. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.120 Prior to this, all we knew about telephone calls from 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.160 the house were that two long distance ones were made, 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.119 one at six point fifty three pm and one at 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.640 seven h six pm, and they showed up because they 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.560 were listed on the telephone bill when it was issued 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:00.560 by the phone company, but local calls were not listed 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:08.440 on the bill. Now right at this moment in the interview, 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:13.000 the recording equipment began to beep an alert to police 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:14.880 to put new cassette tapes in. 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.359 So what I'll do is just get a new set 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:19.360 of audio tapes. 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.320 Yeah, and we'll study it again. If Bromwin did not 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.120 make any telephone calls on the night of May sixteenth, 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:32.120 nineteen ninety three, John was lying about this. A relevant 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:37.000 question when the interview restarted would have been John, what 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.080 do you say, Detective disk and discovered when he apparently 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.320 traced those local calls. When the interview tapes in the 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.920 police station were changed and the interview restarted, the conversation 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.960 returned briefly to the telephone calls. 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.960 Okay, I think where we got up to was talking 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.360 about what was Drongwen doing. That's right, I know you 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.960 mentioned that qweening and made a couple or at least 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.440 one phane call, possibly her solicitor. 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:12.120 John replied, Yeah, that's what Graham told me. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:18.320 Yeah. Glenn Taylor has perhaps misunderstood the sequence or timing 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.840 of the calls. He has a running sheet from nineteen 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:26.400 ninety three stating that Bromman had telephoned solicitor Chrismicdbitt in 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:31.320 the afternoon. For John, it possibly felt like he was 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.960 being thrown a lifeline. The water was muddied about when 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.839 Bromman had called her solicitor, and it meant John didn't 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.840 have to fill in the blanks. Do you know what 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:43.720 time that was? 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:46.960 It was only after my phone course to my brother 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.400 and my daughter sometime after that, right, so it could 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.599 have been any time to tell you the truth, I 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.159 don't know, I can't remember. 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.520 We know that Bromman had telephoned Chrismic Debitt in the 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:05.720 afternoon because her solicitor told police about that conversation. Romwin 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.279 disclosed to Chrismic Debitt in that conversation that she was 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.960 really worried about John coming back to the house. According 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.520 to the solicitor, the call was in the late afternoon 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.479 on Sunday, and that usually means around four pm to 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:27.000 five pm. Mobile phones were not in widespread use. People 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.800 were much less urgent about contacting each other, particularly on 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:35.320 a Sunday. Anyone making a telephone call after seven to 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.480 ten pm in Lennox Head was making that call in 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:42.400 the evening or nighttime, and in my view, Chrispiic Debit 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.240 would have remembered an evening call and he would have 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.200 disclosed that two Detective Graham discin if in fact Bromin 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.599 had called him in the evening, but the imprecise wording 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.520 in the detective's entry in the running sheet has sewed confusion. 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.800 When Graham Discin made a note of his conversation with 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.839 Bromwyn solicitor Chris mcdebitt in the police running sheet, the 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:10.680 detective wrote this on June three, nineteen ninety three. 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.560 On Sunday, May sixteen, in the late afternoon, the missing 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.560 person contacted him and stated that her husband had returned 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.240 from Sydney and she was concerned about him being in 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:20.080 the house. 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.000 And that line has been interpreted by some, including Glenn Taylor, 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.279 to mean that John was already in the house. 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.040 Mcdebittt advised the missing person that she might contact the 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.400 police and inform them of the situation, and, if need be, 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.520 have them called by as a precaution in order to 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.080 prevent a breach of the peace. The missing person seemed 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.600 happy with that and made an appointment to see mcdebitt 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.840 at nine am on May seventeen, nineteen ninety three, an 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.320 appointment she never kept. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:54.080 In relation to Chris mcdebitt, the solicitor who was called 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:59.920 by Bromwin on Sunday, the running sheet says that Browin 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:04.039 called him in the late afternoon, and I reckon, that's 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:08.719 between all thirty and five point thirty. You assumed that 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:13.120 bronwin must have made that telephone call from the house 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.640 when John was in the house. 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.440 Because I think it seems to mention that in a 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.760 running sheet distance running sheet. Yes, I think we had 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.360 assumed that she had rang and said johns in the house. 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:26.320 What should I do? 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:32.480 The running sheet it's not written very precisely by Graham 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:37.080 Diskin or whoever wrote that line. Glenn Taylor agreed with 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.400 me that he did make the assumption, starting with his 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.280 interview of John Winfield in nineteen ninety eight, that bronwin 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.200 was making the telephone call to her solicitor while John 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.920 was in the house on the night of Sunday, May sixteenth, 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:57.000 nineteen ninety three. The late afternoon angle kind of knocks 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:01.520 that out, and Glenn also agreed with me that in fact, 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.440 John could not have been back at the house in 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.680 the late afternoon, considering all the evidence around the timing 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:13.200 of John's ANSID Australia flight from Sydney. John's drive from 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.080 Ballina Airport to the Balloner Police station on the Sunday evening, 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.240 and then John's detour to Lennox Head to pick up 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.560 Becky McGuire. With all of this, it was not possible 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.920 for John to be in the house in the late afternoon, 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.600 which is when Chris mcdefitt says Bromwin called him at 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:36.080 his home because of her concerns. At an early stage, 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.480 it appears that Glenn Taylor's new investigation in nineteen ninety 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.040 eight was misled by a person of interest about the 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:48.560 making and the timing of purported local telephone calls that 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:53.000 John says were made by Bromwin. I have asked Glenn 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:57.080 about whether his investigation from nineteen ninety eight tried to 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:01.600 obtain what we believe is the smoking gun local call 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:06.479 data from the phone company. It was known as Telecom 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.640 in nineteen ninety three. The company changed its name to 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:12.920 Telstra in nineteen ninety five. 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:18.079 I'm not sure about local calls, dramink local calls or 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.800 rooted in most other I think you could check to 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.080 say which you made local care. 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.600 There are no signed statements from Telstra officials in the 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.840 police brief of evidence which Glenn took to the coroner 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.400 for the two thousand and two inquest, nor is there 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.760 mention in Glenn's formal police statement of any investigation by 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:44.400 Glenn or Detective Wayne Tembe into the purported local calls. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.680 There is, however, a snippet of evidence from the two 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.319 thousand and two inquest that shows Glenn asked the police 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.840 officer while the inquest was unfolding with public hearings, to 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.440 make an urgent request to Telstra about whether local calls 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.720 from nine years earlier, that is, nineteen ninety three could 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.120 be traced. Glenn has told me that he can't remember 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.280 having asked for this information during the investigation in the 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:18.040 four years prior to the inquest, and because he does 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.280 not have access to his own running sheets anymore, he 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.240 couldn't be sure whether he had. He told me that 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.280 he was of the view that local call data could 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.280 not be generated by telecom in nineteen ninety three anyway, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:37.439 due to the limitations of the technology. Karina Berger and 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:42.240 I have been investigating this crucial angle because it is 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.520 now and it has always been one of the most 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:50.160 important features of this case. If the local call data 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:55.000 had been available in nineteen ninety three, or if it's 0:10:55.040 --> 0:11:02.839 available now in twenty twenty four, what potential impact would 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.600 that have on this unsolved case. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.400 If local called ARTA was available, it would be of 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:15.880 pivotal importance to this case. It could either support John's 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.440 version of events, namely that Bronwyn went into the bedroom 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.600 and made some telephone calls on the night in question, 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.040 and was collected a short time later, presumably by somebody 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.440 that she might have phoned. Local call data might lead 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.000 police to be able to make inquiries of persons that 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:40.160 she reached out to on that night. Conversely, if no 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:44.400 local calls were made on that evening, then that would 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:50.080 disprove a crucial part of John's version of events. And 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.600 I think more broadly, local called arta would be very 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:59.080 helpful because it would assist in showing who Bronwin was 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:03.720 communicating with and who her associates were in the leadup 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:08.240 to this night in question, which might also assist the 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.840 police to consider other theories, such as her starting a 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.040 new life with a boyfriend. 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.439 For example, if. 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:20.280 No local calls were made from the telephone at Sandstone 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:24.520 Creator on the night of May sixteen, ninety ninety three, 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:26.560 then that's a game changer. 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.080 I think so, because that does seem to be a 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:34.240 really crucial part of John's version of events. He's told 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:38.040 multiple people that that's exactly what happened. Bronwan went and 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.760 made some telephone calls. You would infer that if she 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.400 went and made some telephone calls and was collected a 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.240 short time later, then those calls were most likely to 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:49.280 have been local ones. 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:55.360 And again, hypothetically, if local call data was indeed available 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.640 in nineteen ninety three, then it's possible, if someone knows 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.199 where to look where it might be stored, that it's 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.120 still available in twenty twenty four. 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:06.840 It's possible. 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.319 I don't feel particularly hopeful that it would still be available, 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.560 but it would certainly be worse looking. Maybe there's a 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.560 saint hope that it's out there somewhere. 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.480 The idea that Bromwin would wait for John to arrive 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.880 and enter the house and then make her call to 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.840 the solicitor to express her concerns doesn't sit right with me. 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.839 I believe that the call to Chris mcdebit was Bromwin's 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.240 last minute effort to raise her worries about John's looming arrival. 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.800 Bromwin perhaps hoped that her solicitor could act quickly with 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.280 a legal action to stop John from coming near the house. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.280 A woman who has been worried that her husband might 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.559 hurt her is more likely to take preemptive action and 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.640 not wait until he is in the house and can 0:13:55.720 --> 0:14:00.679 potentially overhear a telephone call. But five years later, John's 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.400 police interview was the last time he was asked anything 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:08.120 on the record about Bromwin's purported telephone calls from the 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:12.280 house that night. John was able to lay a false trail, 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:17.079 including that Detective Graham Discott had used technology to trace 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:21.920 a local call from Bromwin to her solicitor. Here's Glenn 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:22.680 Taylor again. 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.720 Jade would have alerted Brolin that he's going to come 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.160 back up. Dad's going to hit the roof when he 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.400 finds that you've gone back into the house. But why 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.720 would Bromlin then just hand possession back over to the 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:38.000 house after doing that. 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:06.160 John's story is not subtle. It invites police and prosecutors, 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.600 as well as Bromwin's family and friends, and now hundreds 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.880 of thousands of listeners to this podcast series to look 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.040 not at him, but at a purported driver of a 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.840 mystery car which nobody has cited or described. Bromwyn got 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.000 into that car, according to John, because he says she 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.360 had told him she wanted to have a break from 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:31.640 the kids and took only her handbag. Plainly on John's version, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.760 if you work out who Bromwyn possibly telephoned that night, 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.880 you close in on her probable killer, obtain the data 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:43.680 in the local calls which Bromwin supposedly made, and cracked 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.040 the case. But on the other hand, if local call 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.720 data shows that, in fact no local calls were made 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.000 from the house at Sandstone Crescent, then John has been 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:58.560 lying all along. His story collapses like a house of cards. 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.800 In this narrative, I am specifically talking about local calls 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.640 because we know from the actual telephone bill for the 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:10.400 house that only two long distance calls were made on 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.880 the night of May sixteen, one at six fifty three 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.480 pm to John's daughter Jody in Sydney, and the other 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.560 at seven oh six pm to the landline in the house, 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:25.200 which belonged to John's brother Peter Winfield. John's story revolves 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:29.960 around Bromwin's purported calls being local. He does not suggest 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.880 anything else. It's locked inn and that's why this is 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:38.760 so infuriating. Since episode fifteen, I've been holding on to 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.600 another small part of John's interview. I wanted to check 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.360 it as thoroughly as possible and then bundle it up 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:49.160 with other information you'll hear in this episode. For context, 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.480 Karina Berger and I have been researching and talking to 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.040 people who used to work for Telecom as it was 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:00.560 called before the name changed to Telstra. A few episodesades back. 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:05.320 Karina found the anset Australia Airline May nineteen ninety three timetable, 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.920 which showed that John's flight would have landed about seven 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.600 twenty five pm, making it impossible for him to have 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.200 made those long distance calls at six fifty three pm 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:20.040 and seven h six pm. It is very probable in 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.000 my view that Bromwin made those long distance calls, possibly 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.639 because she was panicking about John's imminent return and she 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.679 wanted Jody and John's brother or sister in law to 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.880 do something that would mean John lied to police when 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.240 he claimed that he made those long distance calls. He 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.440 couldn't have got to the house in time to do this, 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:46.600 But what about local calls sometime after eight pm? Karina 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.840 and others have been helping me behind the scenes as 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.240 we try to determine whether data about local calls was 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:58.520 actually available in nineteen ninety three. I have previously talked 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.800 to former detectives, ding retired detective Sergeant Damian Loon, who 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:07.040 helped crack the case against wife killer Chris Dawson. These 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.280 former detectives tell me that, yes, from their memory, local 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.080 call data could be obtained thirty one years ago four 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:20.080 landline telephones. On the other hand, Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor, 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.439 who investigated Bromin's disappearance from August nineteen ninety eight, was 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.760 skeptical about the availability of local call data in nineteen 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:32.960 ninety three. In all of the documents from the original 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.400 nineteen ninety three investigation by detectives, there is no evidence 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.959 that detectives Graham Discan and Wayne Tembe actually got local 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:46.600 call data from Telecom. There is evidence, however, that Detective 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:52.400 Discan requested data from Telecom. Detective Sergeant Graham Discan did 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:58.399 contact Telecom seeking information about the telephone service at Soundstone Crescent. 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.320 Yeah, that's right, he did. I don't think we know 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.959 exactly what he asked for, and the response he seems 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:11.040 to have received appears to just include the two STD 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.400 calls that we've spoken about before, made on the night 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.280 of the sixteenth of May, and then the double five 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.400 call that was made on the afternoon of the sixteenth 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.960 of May, just after two pm. 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.760 This is the number which has been misread by detectives 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:32.360 in nineteen ninety three. They've assumed wrongly that Bromwin went 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.440 back to the house at two thirteen am on Monday 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.640 to make that call. It begs the question, now, might 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:44.040 this local call data still exist in storage somewhere? The 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:49.040 smoking gun you are going to hear now from Linda Horsefield. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.159 Linda emailed me to share some intel from her time 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.000 working at Telecom and we had a zoom call with 0:19:56.160 --> 0:20:00.159 Karina Berger. Can you tell me why you wrote to me? 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.560 After listening to part of the Bromwin podcast. 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.080 I was sitting there listening to it, and I'm thinking 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.600 to myself, now, he's claiming his wife called a friend, 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.200 and I would assume it would be somebody locally. Why 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.800 didn't the police check to make sure that call was made, 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.040 to see if he's actually telling the truth or not. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.080 It's just so simple. I was sitting there and I 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.520 was pondering about it for a while, and I thought 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:30.160 police may not be aware that they could check local calls. 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:30.919 I don't know. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.400 I suppose if you don't know something exists, you might 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.480 not follow up on it. If I was a coperand 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:42.240 somebody's making a claim that something happened, you would make 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:43.879 sure what they're saying is right. 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:46.240 It's just common sense. 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.240 When Linda first got in touch with me, she said 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.720 she felt a bit weird emailing, like, as she put it, 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.359 an armchair detective. But she said she felt agitated because 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.159 it seemed to her that invests litigators had done what 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:05.720 she called a half asked job. I'm glad Linda went 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.520 to the trouble of sharing her knowledge. She explained in 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:13.119 writing and then in our interview that she previously worked 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:17.480 for Telecom and then Telstra when it was rebranded. Linda 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.840 worked there from nineteen ninety four in a role dealing 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:25.520 directly with customer complaints. It meant that she regularly needed 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:30.560 to check on the data for customers' local calls. Back then, 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:35.560 the routine telephone bills for customers simply stated the number 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:40.160 of local calls made from their landline service. The printed 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.800 telephone bills, which everybody got in the mail, did not 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.919 display details about when the local calls were made and 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:52.080 to whom. That kind of information was only provided for 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:56.040 the long distance calls, say from lenox Head to Sydney, 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:01.080 and calls for special information like Lotto resolves, and of 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:07.440 course reverse charge calls and international calls. Linda insists, however, 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:12.080 that the local call data was available upon request from 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:17.040 any complaining customer. She says she saw that data all 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:21.720 the time. Because many customers believe that they were being overcharged, 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.480 they wanted proof of the calls, and Telecom had to 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:30.400 provide it. Hypothetical Linda, I'm a customer in May nineteen 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:35.080 ninety three in lenox Head, New South Wales. I want 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:39.400 to know all of the local calls that have been 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:44.000 made by the telephone that's in my name. I can 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:46.720 contact Telstrea or Telecom and say I've got a dispute. 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.200 I doubt these calls that you're charging me were made, 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.680 or I want to know what's going on here, And 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.800 you could provide a list of all those calls with 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:00.880 the actual numbers and the time the call were made, 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:06.000 even though they're local calls. Yep, And what's your level 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.600 of confidence about that? 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:09.800 One hundred? 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:13.960 Legally, you've always got to show what people are being 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:18.520 charged for. There were so many issues that people had 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:19.399 to be reimbursed. 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:20.480 We had to be able to. 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:24.320 See how much they were entitled to, so we could 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.600 really get into the nitty gritty of things. So if 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.000 I've got a complaint from a person and they would 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:32.960 say I've got sixty seven calls here on my bill 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:36.640 and I'm sure I didn't make them, then you would say, well, 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.040 we can go through that for you, and. 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.520 Then would you have pulled up the local call data yourself. 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:47.200 I had access to pretty much all the systems. What 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:50.040 we used to do, especially when there was billing disputes, 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:53.520 we had to go through the whole bill. If a 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.800 person was complaining about dropouts and I wanted to get reimbursed, 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:00.439 we would pull the local call data. We could actually 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:03.760 see all the calls that people used to make. Sometimes 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.280 people had line foulds, for example, and they used to say, look, 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:09.960 I want to get reimbursed for all those multiple calls 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.200 I had to redial. We could then see which number 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:16.480 was dialed multiple times in a row, or I was 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:19.199 on holidays via Thatt calls on here, or then you 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.960 can narrow down if calls were made at the time 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:25.439 and the customer said that there was nobody in the house. 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:30.080 We would then add them up and then reimburse them. Definitely, 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:33.240 local calls were itemized, but it wouldn't come up on 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:36.640 the bills because people's bills would just be huge if 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:39.480 they make a lot of phone calls. And if people 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.080 wanted to get it itemized, if they were disputing it, 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.280 we could send that information to them. They might have 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:48.080 sixty four calls made, and if they used to turn 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:50.359 around and say, look, I didn't make that many calls, 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:52.880 or I had a fold with my line, we could 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:54.920 retrieve that information for them. 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:58.720 It was the time that numbers were dialed. They could 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:03.240 see that when it the call finished and the number that. 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:06.480 At the time you were aware that the local call 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:10.280 data was available, it might have been ninety five, it 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:13.639 might have been ninety four. Is it possible that that 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:17.440 was a more recent development and that in May ninety 0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:18.639 three it wasn't available. 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:23.119 No, in all the exchanges, it would have been available 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:24.360 around that time. 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:25.560 Yeah, definitely. 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:33.120 Do you know whether the data was stored indefinitely or 0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:36.040 for a limited period for how long could you get it? 0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:37.560 I really don't know. 0:25:38.040 --> 0:25:41.159 I did go through historical data at times, and that 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:44.399 was generally subpoenas and for things like that as well. 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:46.720 One of the staff members one day said, oh, no, 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:51.200 we can retreat for archives data way back, but it 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:53.720 was more than the seven years. But I don't know 0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:57.760 exactly how long. Everything was computerized and a lot of 0:25:57.840 --> 0:26:00.119 it was backed up. You could go on line and 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.320 bring up a phone number as a staff member. Once 0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:05.919