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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. There is

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Speaker 1: a smoking garden in this case, one piece of the

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Speaker 1: puzzle which could change everything. The piece is black and

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Speaker 1: white and it's always been blindingly obvious. It is data

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Speaker 1: for local telephone calls. John's consistent story since he first

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Speaker 1: arted it to stunned Michelle and Andy Reid in the

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Speaker 1: Shire on a Monday afternoon, May seventeen, nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: is that Bronwin went into the bedroom at Sandstone Crescent

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Speaker 1: and made a couple of telephone calls the night before.

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Speaker 1: A car soon arrived, John says, and he heard that

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Speaker 1: car come to the house, but he didn't look at it. Bronwin,

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Speaker 1: he says, then walked out of the house. The car

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Speaker 1: drove away. John says he heard that happen too, and

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Speaker 1: Bromwin was never seen again. Near the start of episode fifteen,

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Speaker 1: you heard a part of John Winfield's nineteen ninety eight

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Speaker 1: interview in which he disclosed some things about local phone

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Speaker 1: calls to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor, but all.

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Speaker 2: I know is that she went in the bedroom and

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Speaker 2: that it was Graham. That was Graham told me that

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Speaker 2: where the phone calls were going, because I was surprised

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Speaker 2: when he told me, because I didn't know you could

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Speaker 2: trace local phone calls, and I had no idea you

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Speaker 2: could do it, and then he told me you could,

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Speaker 2: and he did it.

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Speaker 1: You know. According to what John told detective Glen Taylor

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight, Bromman's purported calls were actually traced

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Speaker 1: by a detective Discan back in nineteen ninety three, and Discan,

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Speaker 1: according to John, had even confirmed this to John. John

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Speaker 1: claimed in nineteen ninety eight, while sitting opposite Glen Taylor,

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Speaker 1: that detective Discn had also told.

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Speaker 2: Him where the phone calls were going.

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Speaker 1: Prior to this, all we knew about telephone calls from

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Speaker 1: the house were that two long distance ones were made,

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Speaker 1: one at six point fifty three pm and one at

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Speaker 1: seven h six pm, and they showed up because they

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Speaker 1: were listed on the telephone bill when it was issued

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Speaker 1: by the phone company, but local calls were not listed

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Speaker 1: on the bill. Now right at this moment in the interview,

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Speaker 1: the recording equipment began to beep an alert to police

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Speaker 1: to put new cassette tapes in.

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Speaker 3: So what I'll do is just get a new set

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Speaker 3: of audio tapes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll study it again. If Bromwin did not

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Speaker 1: make any telephone calls on the night of May sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, John was lying about this. A relevant

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Speaker 1: question when the interview restarted would have been John, what

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Speaker 1: do you say, Detective disk and discovered when he apparently

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Speaker 1: traced those local calls. When the interview tapes in the

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Speaker 1: police station were changed and the interview restarted, the conversation

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Speaker 1: returned briefly to the telephone calls.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I think where we got up to was talking

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Speaker 3: about what was Drongwen doing. That's right, I know you

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Speaker 3: mentioned that qweening and made a couple or at least

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Speaker 3: one phane call, possibly her solicitor.

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Speaker 2: John replied, Yeah, that's what Graham told me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Glenn Taylor has perhaps misunderstood the sequence or timing

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Speaker 1: of the calls. He has a running sheet from nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three stating that Bromman had telephoned solicitor Chrismicdbitt in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon. For John, it possibly felt like he was

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Speaker 1: being thrown a lifeline. The water was muddied about when

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Speaker 1: Bromman had called her solicitor, and it meant John didn't

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Speaker 1: have to fill in the blanks. Do you know what

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Speaker 1: time that was?

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Speaker 2: It was only after my phone course to my brother

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Speaker 2: and my daughter sometime after that, right, so it could

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Speaker 2: have been any time to tell you the truth, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: We know that Bromman had telephoned Chrismic Debitt in the

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Speaker 1: afternoon because her solicitor told police about that conversation. Romwin

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Speaker 1: disclosed to Chrismic Debitt in that conversation that she was

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Speaker 1: really worried about John coming back to the house. According

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Speaker 1: to the solicitor, the call was in the late afternoon

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Speaker 1: on Sunday, and that usually means around four pm to

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Speaker 1: five pm. Mobile phones were not in widespread use. People

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Speaker 1: were much less urgent about contacting each other, particularly on

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Speaker 1: a Sunday. Anyone making a telephone call after seven to

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Speaker 1: ten pm in Lennox Head was making that call in

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Speaker 1: the evening or nighttime, and in my view, Chrispiic Debit

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Speaker 1: would have remembered an evening call and he would have

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Speaker 1: disclosed that two Detective Graham discin if in fact Bromin

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Speaker 1: had called him in the evening, but the imprecise wording

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Speaker 1: in the detective's entry in the running sheet has sewed confusion.

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Speaker 1: When Graham Discin made a note of his conversation with

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Speaker 1: Bromwyn solicitor Chris mcdebitt in the police running sheet, the

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Speaker 1: detective wrote this on June three, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 4: On Sunday, May sixteen, in the late afternoon, the missing

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Speaker 4: person contacted him and stated that her husband had returned

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Speaker 4: from Sydney and she was concerned about him being in

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Speaker 4: the house.

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Speaker 1: And that line has been interpreted by some, including Glenn Taylor,

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Speaker 1: to mean that John was already in the house.

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Speaker 4: Mcdebittt advised the missing person that she might contact the

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Speaker 4: police and inform them of the situation, and, if need be,

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Speaker 4: have them called by as a precaution in order to

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Speaker 4: prevent a breach of the peace. The missing person seemed

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Speaker 4: happy with that and made an appointment to see mcdebitt

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Speaker 4: at nine am on May seventeen, nineteen ninety three, an

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Speaker 4: appointment she never kept.

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Speaker 1: In relation to Chris mcdebitt, the solicitor who was called

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Speaker 1: by Bromwin on Sunday, the running sheet says that Browin

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Speaker 1: called him in the late afternoon, and I reckon, that's

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Speaker 1: between all thirty and five point thirty. You assumed that

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Speaker 1: bronwin must have made that telephone call from the house

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Speaker 1: when John was in the house.

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Speaker 5: Because I think it seems to mention that in a

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Speaker 5: running sheet distance running sheet. Yes, I think we had

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Speaker 5: assumed that she had rang and said johns in the house.

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Speaker 6: What should I do?

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Speaker 1: The running sheet it's not written very precisely by Graham

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Speaker 1: Diskin or whoever wrote that line. Glenn Taylor agreed with

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Speaker 1: me that he did make the assumption, starting with his

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Speaker 1: interview of John Winfield in nineteen ninety eight, that bronwin

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Speaker 1: was making the telephone call to her solicitor while John

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Speaker 1: was in the house on the night of Sunday, May sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. The late afternoon angle kind of knocks

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Speaker 1: that out, and Glenn also agreed with me that in fact,

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Speaker 1: John could not have been back at the house in

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Speaker 1: the late afternoon, considering all the evidence around the timing

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Speaker 1: of John's ANSID Australia flight from Sydney. John's drive from

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Speaker 1: Ballina Airport to the Balloner Police station on the Sunday evening,

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Speaker 1: and then John's detour to Lennox Head to pick up

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Speaker 1: Becky McGuire. With all of this, it was not possible

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Speaker 1: for John to be in the house in the late afternoon,

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Speaker 1: which is when Chris mcdefitt says Bromwin called him at

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Speaker 1: his home because of her concerns. At an early stage,

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Speaker 1: it appears that Glenn Taylor's new investigation in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: eight was misled by a person of interest about the

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Speaker 1: making and the timing of purported local telephone calls that

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Speaker 1: John says were made by Bromwin. I have asked Glenn

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Speaker 1: about whether his investigation from nineteen ninety eight tried to

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Speaker 1: obtain what we believe is the smoking gun local call

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Speaker 1: data from the phone company. It was known as Telecom

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. The company changed its name to

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Speaker 1: Telstra in nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 5: I'm not sure about local calls, dramink local calls or

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Speaker 5: rooted in most other I think you could check to

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Speaker 5: say which you made local care.

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Speaker 1: There are no signed statements from Telstra officials in the

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Speaker 1: police brief of evidence which Glenn took to the coroner

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Speaker 1: for the two thousand and two inquest, nor is there

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Speaker 1: mention in Glenn's formal police statement of any investigation by

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Speaker 1: Glenn or Detective Wayne Tembe into the purported local calls.

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Speaker 1: There is, however, a snippet of evidence from the two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two inquest that shows Glenn asked the police

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Speaker 1: officer while the inquest was unfolding with public hearings, to

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Speaker 1: make an urgent request to Telstra about whether local calls

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Speaker 1: from nine years earlier, that is, nineteen ninety three could

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Speaker 1: be traced. Glenn has told me that he can't remember

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Speaker 1: having asked for this information during the investigation in the

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Speaker 1: four years prior to the inquest, and because he does

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Speaker 1: not have access to his own running sheets anymore, he

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Speaker 1: couldn't be sure whether he had. He told me that

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Speaker 1: he was of the view that local call data could

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Speaker 1: not be generated by telecom in nineteen ninety three anyway,

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Speaker 1: due to the limitations of the technology. Karina Berger and

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Speaker 1: I have been investigating this crucial angle because it is

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Speaker 1: now and it has always been one of the most

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Speaker 1: important features of this case. If the local call data

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Speaker 1: had been available in nineteen ninety three, or if it's

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Speaker 1: available now in twenty twenty four, what potential impact would

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Speaker 1: that have on this unsolved case.

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Speaker 7: If local called ARTA was available, it would be of

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Speaker 7: pivotal importance to this case. It could either support John's

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Speaker 7: version of events, namely that Bronwyn went into the bedroom

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Speaker 7: and made some telephone calls on the night in question,

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Speaker 7: and was collected a short time later, presumably by somebody

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Speaker 7: that she might have phoned. Local call data might lead

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Speaker 7: police to be able to make inquiries of persons that

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Speaker 7: she reached out to on that night. Conversely, if no

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Speaker 7: local calls were made on that evening, then that would

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Speaker 7: disprove a crucial part of John's version of events. And

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Speaker 7: I think more broadly, local called arta would be very

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Speaker 7: helpful because it would assist in showing who Bronwin was

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Speaker 7: communicating with and who her associates were in the leadup

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Speaker 7: to this night in question, which might also assist the

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Speaker 7: police to consider other theories, such as her starting a

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Speaker 7: new life with a boyfriend.

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Speaker 8: For example, if.

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Speaker 1: No local calls were made from the telephone at Sandstone

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Speaker 1: Creator on the night of May sixteen, ninety ninety three,

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Speaker 1: then that's a game changer.

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Speaker 7: I think so, because that does seem to be a

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Speaker 7: really crucial part of John's version of events. He's told

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Speaker 7: multiple people that that's exactly what happened. Bronwan went and

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Speaker 7: made some telephone calls. You would infer that if she

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Speaker 7: went and made some telephone calls and was collected a

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Speaker 7: short time later, then those calls were most likely to

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Speaker 7: have been local ones.

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Speaker 1: And again, hypothetically, if local call data was indeed available

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three, then it's possible, if someone knows

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Speaker 1: where to look where it might be stored, that it's

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Speaker 1: still available in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 8: It's possible.

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Speaker 7: I don't feel particularly hopeful that it would still be available,

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Speaker 7: but it would certainly be worse looking. Maybe there's a

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Speaker 7: saint hope that it's out there somewhere.

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Speaker 1: The idea that Bromwin would wait for John to arrive

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Speaker 1: and enter the house and then make her call to

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Speaker 1: the solicitor to express her concerns doesn't sit right with me.

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Speaker 1: I believe that the call to Chris mcdebit was Bromwin's

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Speaker 1: last minute effort to raise her worries about John's looming arrival.

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Speaker 1: Bromwin perhaps hoped that her solicitor could act quickly with

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Speaker 1: a legal action to stop John from coming near the house.

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Speaker 1: A woman who has been worried that her husband might

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Speaker 1: hurt her is more likely to take preemptive action and

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Speaker 1: not wait until he is in the house and can

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Speaker 1: potentially overhear a telephone call. But five years later, John's

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Speaker 1: police interview was the last time he was asked anything

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Speaker 1: on the record about Bromwin's purported telephone calls from the

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Speaker 1: house that night. John was able to lay a false trail,

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Speaker 1: including that Detective Graham Discott had used technology to trace

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Speaker 1: a local call from Bromwin to her solicitor. Here's Glenn

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Speaker 1: Taylor again.

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Speaker 5: Jade would have alerted Brolin that he's going to come

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Speaker 5: back up. Dad's going to hit the roof when he

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Speaker 5: finds that you've gone back into the house. But why

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Speaker 5: would Bromlin then just hand possession back over to the

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Speaker 5: house after doing that.

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Speaker 1: John's story is not subtle. It invites police and prosecutors,

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Speaker 1: as well as Bromwin's family and friends, and now hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands of listeners to this podcast series to look

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Speaker 1: not at him, but at a purported driver of a

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Speaker 1: mystery car which nobody has cited or described. Bromwyn got

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Speaker 1: into that car, according to John, because he says she

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Speaker 1: had told him she wanted to have a break from

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Speaker 1: the kids and took only her handbag. Plainly on John's version,

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Speaker 1: if you work out who Bromwyn possibly telephoned that night,

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Speaker 1: you close in on her probable killer, obtain the data

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Speaker 1: in the local calls which Bromwin supposedly made, and cracked

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Speaker 1: the case. But on the other hand, if local call

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Speaker 1: data shows that, in fact no local calls were made

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Speaker 1: from the house at Sandstone Crescent, then John has been

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Speaker 1: lying all along. His story collapses like a house of cards.

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Speaker 1: In this narrative, I am specifically talking about local calls

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Speaker 1: because we know from the actual telephone bill for the

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Speaker 1: house that only two long distance calls were made on

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Speaker 1: the night of May sixteen, one at six fifty three

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Speaker 1: pm to John's daughter Jody in Sydney, and the other

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Speaker 1: at seven oh six pm to the landline in the house,

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Speaker 1: which belonged to John's brother Peter Winfield. John's story revolves

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Speaker 1: around Bromwin's purported calls being local. He does not suggest

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Speaker 1: anything else. It's locked inn and that's why this is

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Speaker 1: so infuriating. Since episode fifteen, I've been holding on to

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Speaker 1: another small part of John's interview. I wanted to check

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Speaker 1: it as thoroughly as possible and then bundle it up

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Speaker 1: with other information you'll hear in this episode. For context,

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Speaker 1: Karina Berger and I have been researching and talking to

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Speaker 1: people who used to work for Telecom as it was

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Speaker 1: called before the name changed to Telstra. A few episodesades back.

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Speaker 1: Karina found the anset Australia Airline May nineteen ninety three timetable,

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Speaker 1: which showed that John's flight would have landed about seven

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Speaker 1: twenty five pm, making it impossible for him to have

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Speaker 1: made those long distance calls at six fifty three pm

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Speaker 1: and seven h six pm. It is very probable in

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Speaker 1: my view that Bromwin made those long distance calls, possibly

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Speaker 1: because she was panicking about John's imminent return and she

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Speaker 1: wanted Jody and John's brother or sister in law to

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Speaker 1: do something that would mean John lied to police when

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Speaker 1: he claimed that he made those long distance calls. He

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Speaker 1: couldn't have got to the house in time to do this,

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Speaker 1: But what about local calls sometime after eight pm? Karina

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Speaker 1: and others have been helping me behind the scenes as

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Speaker 1: we try to determine whether data about local calls was

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Speaker 1: actually available in nineteen ninety three. I have previously talked

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Speaker 1: to former detectives, ding retired detective Sergeant Damian Loon, who

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Speaker 1: helped crack the case against wife killer Chris Dawson. These

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Speaker 1: former detectives tell me that, yes, from their memory, local

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Speaker 1: call data could be obtained thirty one years ago four

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Speaker 1: landline telephones. On the other hand, Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor,

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Speaker 1: who investigated Bromin's disappearance from August nineteen ninety eight, was

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Speaker 1: skeptical about the availability of local call data in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three. In all of the documents from the original

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three investigation by detectives, there is no evidence

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Speaker 1: that detectives Graham Discan and Wayne Tembe actually got local

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Speaker 1: call data from Telecom. There is evidence, however, that Detective

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Speaker 1: Discan requested data from Telecom. Detective Sergeant Graham Discan did

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Speaker 1: contact Telecom seeking information about the telephone service at Soundstone Crescent.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, that's right, he did. I don't think we know

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Speaker 9: exactly what he asked for, and the response he seems

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Speaker 9: to have received appears to just include the two STD

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Speaker 9: calls that we've spoken about before, made on the night

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Speaker 9: of the sixteenth of May, and then the double five

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Speaker 9: call that was made on the afternoon of the sixteenth

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Speaker 9: of May, just after two pm.

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Speaker 1: This is the number which has been misread by detectives

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. They've assumed wrongly that Bromwin went

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Speaker 1: back to the house at two thirteen am on Monday

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Speaker 1: to make that call. It begs the question, now, might

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Speaker 1: this local call data still exist in storage somewhere? The

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Speaker 1: smoking gun you are going to hear now from Linda Horsefield.

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Speaker 1: Linda emailed me to share some intel from her time

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Speaker 1: working at Telecom and we had a zoom call with

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Speaker 1: Karina Berger. Can you tell me why you wrote to me?

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Speaker 1: After listening to part of the Bromwin podcast.

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Speaker 9: I was sitting there listening to it, and I'm thinking

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Speaker 9: to myself, now, he's claiming his wife called a friend,

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Speaker 9: and I would assume it would be somebody locally. Why

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Speaker 9: didn't the police check to make sure that call was made,

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Speaker 9: to see if he's actually telling the truth or not.

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Speaker 8: It's just so simple. I was sitting there and I

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Speaker 8: was pondering about it for a while, and I thought

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Speaker 8: police may not be aware that they could check local calls.

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Speaker 8: I don't know.

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Speaker 9: I suppose if you don't know something exists, you might

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Speaker 9: not follow up on it. If I was a coperand

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Speaker 9: somebody's making a claim that something happened, you would make

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Speaker 9: sure what they're saying is right.

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Speaker 8: It's just common sense.

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Speaker 1: When Linda first got in touch with me, she said

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Speaker 1: she felt a bit weird emailing, like, as she put it,

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Speaker 1: an armchair detective. But she said she felt agitated because

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Speaker 1: it seemed to her that invests litigators had done what

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Speaker 1: she called a half asked job. I'm glad Linda went

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Speaker 1: to the trouble of sharing her knowledge. She explained in

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Speaker 1: writing and then in our interview that she previously worked

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Speaker 1: for Telecom and then Telstra when it was rebranded. Linda

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Speaker 1: worked there from nineteen ninety four in a role dealing

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Speaker 1: directly with customer complaints. It meant that she regularly needed

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Speaker 1: to check on the data for customers' local calls. Back then,

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Speaker 1: the routine telephone bills for customers simply stated the number

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Speaker 1: of local calls made from their landline service. The printed

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Speaker 1: telephone bills, which everybody got in the mail, did not

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Speaker 1: display details about when the local calls were made and

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Speaker 1: to whom. That kind of information was only provided for

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Speaker 1: the long distance calls, say from lenox Head to Sydney,

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Speaker 1: and calls for special information like Lotto resolves, and of

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Speaker 1: course reverse charge calls and international calls. Linda insists, however,

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Speaker 1: that the local call data was available upon request from

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Speaker 1: any complaining customer. She says she saw that data all

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Speaker 1: the time. Because many customers believe that they were being overcharged,

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Speaker 1: they wanted proof of the calls, and Telecom had to

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Speaker 1: provide it. Hypothetical Linda, I'm a customer in May nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three in lenox Head, New South Wales. I want

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Speaker 1: to know all of the local calls that have been

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Speaker 1: made by the telephone that's in my name. I can

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Speaker 1: contact Telstrea or Telecom and say I've got a dispute.

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Speaker 1: I doubt these calls that you're charging me were made,

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Speaker 1: or I want to know what's going on here, And

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Speaker 1: you could provide a list of all those calls with

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Speaker 1: the actual numbers and the time the call were made,

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Speaker 1: even though they're local calls. Yep, And what's your level

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Speaker 1: of confidence about that?

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Speaker 8: One hundred?

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Speaker 9: Legally, you've always got to show what people are being

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Speaker 9: charged for. There were so many issues that people had

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Speaker 9: to be reimbursed.

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Speaker 8: We had to be able to.

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Speaker 9: See how much they were entitled to, so we could

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Speaker 9: really get into the nitty gritty of things. So if

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Speaker 9: I've got a complaint from a person and they would

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Speaker 9: say I've got sixty seven calls here on my bill

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Speaker 9: and I'm sure I didn't make them, then you would say, well,

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Speaker 9: we can go through that for you, and.

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Speaker 7: Then would you have pulled up the local call data yourself.

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Speaker 9: I had access to pretty much all the systems. What

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Speaker 9: we used to do, especially when there was billing disputes,

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Speaker 9: we had to go through the whole bill. If a

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Speaker 9: person was complaining about dropouts and I wanted to get reimbursed,

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Speaker 9: we would pull the local call data. We could actually

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Speaker 9: see all the calls that people used to make. Sometimes

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Speaker 9: people had line foulds, for example, and they used to say, look,

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Speaker 9: I want to get reimbursed for all those multiple calls

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Speaker 9: I had to redial. We could then see which number

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Speaker 9: was dialed multiple times in a row, or I was

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Speaker 9: on holidays via Thatt calls on here, or then you

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Speaker 9: can narrow down if calls were made at the time

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Speaker 9: and the customer said that there was nobody in the house.

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Speaker 9: We would then add them up and then reimburse them. Definitely,

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Speaker 9: local calls were itemized, but it wouldn't come up on

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Speaker 9: the bills because people's bills would just be huge if

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Speaker 9: they make a lot of phone calls. And if people

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Speaker 9: wanted to get it itemized, if they were disputing it,

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Speaker 9: we could send that information to them. They might have

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Speaker 9: sixty four calls made, and if they used to turn

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Speaker 9: around and say, look, I didn't make that many calls,

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Speaker 9: or I had a fold with my line, we could

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Speaker 9: retrieve that information for them.

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Speaker 8: It was the time that numbers were dialed. They could

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Speaker 8: see that when it the call finished and the number that.

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Speaker 1: At the time you were aware that the local call

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Speaker 1: data was available, it might have been ninety five, it

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Speaker 1: might have been ninety four. Is it possible that that

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Speaker 1: was a more recent development and that in May ninety

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Speaker 1: three it wasn't available.

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Speaker 9: No, in all the exchanges, it would have been available

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Speaker 9: around that time.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Do you know whether the data was stored indefinitely or

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Speaker 1: for a limited period for how long could you get it?

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Speaker 8: I really don't know.

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Speaker 9: I did go through historical data at times, and that

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Speaker 9: was generally subpoenas and for things like that as well.

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Speaker 9: One of the staff members one day said, oh, no,

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Speaker 9: we can retreat for archives data way back, but it

397
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Speaker 9: was more than the seven years. But I don't know

398
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Speaker 9: exactly how long. Everything was computerized and a lot of

399
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Speaker 9: it was backed up. You could go on line and

400
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Speaker 9: bring up a phone number as a staff member. Once

401
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 9: you had that approved access, you could just go in

402
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Speaker 9: whenever and retrieve it.

403
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 7: If the police found themselves in the circumstances that headly

404
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 7: described in the episode that you listen to, and they

405
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Speaker 7: wanted to check the local call records, do you know

406
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Speaker 7: what they would have asked for from Telstrap?

407
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 9: They would have had to ask for itemised call records, okay,

408
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Speaker 9: and that would show up every call that was made.

409
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Speaker 9: You put a dating see what calls were exactly made

410
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Speaker 9: at what time.

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Speaker 8: If you could also pull.

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Speaker 9: Incoming call that as well, which is every item is

413
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Speaker 9: showing up on the bill for that particular time.

414
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Speaker 1: The police have asked for some information about this telephone

415
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Speaker 1: service and the calls that were made, but it doesn't

416
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Speaker 1: itemize the individual local calls. I think they might have

417
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: asked for the wrong information or they didn't realize they

418
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: could drill down more deeply into the local call data.

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Speaker 8: I would have just printed it out and sent it

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Speaker 8: to them at.

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00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: Your terminal at your workplace. Then you could actually print

422
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: out all of the individual local call data.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, your problem is going to be the age now.

424
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Speaker 9: Even with intels, it wasn't that widely known that they

425
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 9: had the archived data. You might not have anybody there

426
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 9: that's still aware that that happened in those days.

427
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Speaker 1: You sound very definite about your memory of the availability

428
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Speaker 1: of local call data.

429
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Speaker 9: That's the one thing I'm one hundred percent sure about

430
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 9: because I used to do that with my job all

431
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 9: the time. It's just the matter of how far back

432
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 9: can they go, And it gets me frustrated when people

433
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 9: have just swept it under the carpet.

434
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Speaker 8: So I hope you're going to get where it is.

435
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 8: I really don't.

436
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: I spoke to another former Telstra staff member who did

437
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Speaker 1: similar work dealing with customer complaints about the charges for

438
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: local telephone calls, and she backed Linda up. Although both

439
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: women were not working there in nineteen ninety three, they

440
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: are adamant that the data they were obtaining in the

441
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties was readily available in nineteen ninety three until recently.

442
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: I was unaware that the solicitor Chrismic Debitt had provided

443
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: a statement to police in nineteen ninety eight, five years

444
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: after he spoke to the detective Sergeant Graham Discan. You'll

445
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: recall that it was Discan who reproduced some of the

446
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: details from that conversation. In early June nineteen ninety three

447
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: in a running sheet. Glenn Taylor found the November nineteen

448
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: ninety eight police statement from Chrismicdbitt and shared a copy

449
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: with me. Most of the two page statement is unsurprising

450
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: in light of the detail in the formal legal letter

451
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: which chrismcdebits sent to John on May fourteen, nineteen ninety three,

452
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: with a copy to Bromwin, But there are some newer

453
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: lines of interest. For completeness, a voice actor will read

454
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: those lines from Chris mcdebitts's police statement.

455
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 10: Missus Winfield instructed me to write a letter to her

456
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 10: husband in regard to the family motor vehicle said to

457
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 10: be a Ford. Missus Winfield told me that she wanted

458
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 10: to register the Ford so that she could keep driving it.

459
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 10: The registration was due, and she didn't want to pay

460
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 10: the registration if her husband was not going to allow

461
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 10: her to keep the car. I have a vague recollection

462
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 10: of missus Winfield being quite distressed and agitated when I

463
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 10: just saw her prior to sending the letter on the

464
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 10: fourteenth of May nineteen ninety three. My notes indicate that

465
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 10: she was going to obtain some further information in relation

466
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 10: to their financial situation and then come back and see

467
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 10: me so that we can put together a proposal for

468
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 10: the property settlement to send to Jonathan Winfield.

469
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: After reading he's recently found statement, I emailed chrismkdebit. He

470
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: replied with more information.

471
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 10: I confirm my recollection that when I last saw Bronwyn,

472
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 10: she did appear to be anxious and agitated. I have

473
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 10: always had this recollection, and it is my only recollection.

474
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 10: Having refreshed my memory from reading my statement given to

475
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 10: the police in nineteen ninety eight, it is pretty clear

476
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 10: that I discussed with Bronwyn the option of her moving

477
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 10: back into the vacant home. I have discussed this option

478
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 10: with many clients in similar circumstances over the years. It

479
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,239
Speaker 10: often presents as a practical option, even if it may

480
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 10: be only temporary pending the finalization of a settlement. I

481
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 10: do not know for sure, but it may have been

482
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 10: this discussion that caused Bronwyn to become anxious. In similar circumstances,

483
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 10: my advice to clients has been for them to let

484
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 10: me know if they decide to move back into the home,

485
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 10: so that I could send a letter to the other

486
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 10: party and inform them of this and seek appropriate undertakings

487
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 10: from them, not to come to the home without my

488
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 10: client's consent, not to interfere with my client's occupation of

489
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 10: the home, etc. Pending the finalization of a settlement. It

490
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 10: would appear that when Bronwyn left our meeting she was

491
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 10: going to consider this option, and her calm to me

492
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 10: on the fourteenth of May nineteen ninety three confirms this,

493
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 10: and further that she had decided to move back into

494
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 10: the home after your initial contact with me. I did

495
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 10: contact a former partner at my old firm of Stone

496
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 10: and Partners and asked him if archived files from nineteen

497
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 10: ninety three had been retained. His reply was that they

498
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 10: were not, and the files were destroyed after seven years.

499
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 10: I left Stone and Partners in two thousand. Sorry that

500
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 10: I can't be more helpful. I don't recall having a

501
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 10: telephone call from Bronwyn on Sunday sixteenth and May nineteen

502
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 10: ninety three. However, thirty years ago, it was not unusual

503
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 10: for my clients to call me after hours and on weekends.

504
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: It seems highly probable that Bromin did call her solicitor

505
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: on the afternoon of Sunday May sixteen, because that's what

506
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: Chris mcdebitt recalled when he was asked a fortnight later.

507
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: It's not surprising that he doesn't recall it now thirty

508
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: one years later. But more importantly, did broman really make

509
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: any other local calls just before? According to John's version,

510
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: she was picked up at the house on Sunday night.

511
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: Might such crucial evidence of the presence or absence of

512
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: local calls still be available? Now? You've looked really hard

513
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: for documents. You've looked in places that I would never

514
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: have thought of.

515
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 7: I've done some pretty extensive searches, and I've looked through

516
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 7: a lot of contemporaneous documents, things like annual reports for

517
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 7: telecom as it was at the time, and your reports

518
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 7: for the telecommunications industry Onbunsman.

519
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: Karina Berger has been Terry alike in an effort to

520
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: discover whether police or customers for that matter in nineteen

521
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: ninety three could receive local call data.

522
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 7: I've looked at inquiry papers into the telecommunications industry and billing,

523
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 7: including Telecom submissions to those types of inquiries. I've reviewed

524
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 7: case law to see if I can find any references

525
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 7: to local call data being used in court cases at

526
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 7: about this time.

527
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 8: I have looked at historical.

528
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 7: Legislation to try to work out what obligations Telecom had

529
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 7: at the time to retain or keep this type of data.

530
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 7: And then I also just did know a lot of

531
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 7: general Google searches which led to things like academic papers

532
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 7: and other documents that of customer service agreements, those sorts

533
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 7: of things which I reviewed, but they just don't give

534
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 7: a clear cut answer. Unfortunately. I think it's possible that

535
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 7: Linda's recollection is right. She was so adamant that the

536
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 7: data existed in nineteen ninety four when she started with Telecom,

537
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 7: and that it would have also been available in nineteen

538
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 7: ninety three. At the time, Telecom wanted to resolve billing

539
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 7: complaints by having consumers contact Telecom directly and reaching out

540
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 7: to customer service offices or complaints officers like Linda, who

541
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 7: were then able to interrogate call charges and call data.

542
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 7: We do know that local call data wasn't made widely

543
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 7: available to consumers until nineteen ninety seven, and we also

544
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 7: do know that Telecom or Telstra had to make some

545
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 7: technological advancements to its network to enable that to occur.

546
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 7: But what we don't know is whether the data was

547
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 7: already available before that time to a smaller group of

548
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 7: people like the customer service officers or perhaps to law

549
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 7: enforcement officers.

550
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: From everything we've heard now from Linda, your own research,

551
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: as well as the information that I was given by

552
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: a couple of long retired detectives who said they could

553
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: obtain local call data. What would you put your money

554
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: on as to whether or not it was available back then?

555
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 7: I think it's still uncertain. It does sound like the

556
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 7: local call data was available. Linda was in a customer

557
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 7: service role at the time, dealing with complaints, and she

558
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 7: was very clear that from about nineteen ninety four when

559
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 7: she started with Telstra Telecom that she could access local

560
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 7: call data herself by drilling into the relevant Telstra data bases.

561
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 7: Linda could do it in a complaints management's role at

562
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 7: that time. Then, hopefully another part of Telstra that might

563
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 7: have been responding to requests from law enforcement would also

564
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 7: have been able to access that data. She was very

565
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 7: confident in her recollection that the data was available in

566
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 7: nineteen ninety four at least when she started her employment

567
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 7: with Telstra, and she did come across as being an

568
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 7: honest and reliable person. She sounded sensible and sincere. The

569
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 7: availability of the data might have been a little bit

570
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 7: patchy depending on where the addressing question was located. It

571
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 7: would have been crazy if the complaints part of Telstra

572
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 7: could have accessed the local data but the law enforcement

573
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 7: part of Telstra couldn't access that set in order to

574
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 7: respond to requests from police. Telster actually had an obligation

575
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 7: at the time under the Telecommunications Act to assist to

576
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 7: law enforcement officers.

577
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: Well, there must have been numerous police investigations much earlier

578
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: than this one and as serious where local call data

579
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: would be very valuable.

580
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 8: We don't know.

581
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 7: Why the police seem to have been told that the

582
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 7: local call data wasn't available for Sandstone present, and whether

583
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 7: that's because of a mistake that the Telstra employee has

584
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 7: made because they may not have known that the data

585
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 7: was in fact available, or there was some other reason

586
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 7: behind that advice.

587
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 8: That's the missing piece of the puzzle.

588
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 7: So there's so much interest in local calls in listeners,

589
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 7: and rightly so it's a big ticket item. It would

590
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 7: be great to have a final answer.

591
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 1: If we get helpful information from Telstra, I will include

592
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: it in a future episode. Almost three weeks before the

593
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 1: release of this episode, I asked Telstra in writing about

594
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: its policy and practice in relation to local call data

595
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: and its availability in nineteen ninety three, a Telstra media

596
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: advisor said that she was trying to find out and

597
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: that was the last we heard. Disappointing. Now it is

598
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: obvious that in his one and only police interview in

599
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, John Winfield repeatedly drops the name Graham

600
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: as in Graham Discin. I asked Glenn Taylor about this.

601
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: Do you read anything at all into the apparent familiarity

602
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: of John Winfield with Detective Sergeant Graham Discan where he

603
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: says Graham and Graham that.

604
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 5: Well, he certainly come across in the interview I had

605
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 5: with Ringfield that Grim Diskin and him were like friends.

606
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 5: Gryan this Ryan that I mean, it's not professional at all,

607
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 5: No evidence to say that they were friends outside of

608
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 5: the investigation. It seems very odd that they have this

609
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 5: report in.

610
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: A regional town like Balana, where I suppose there's less

611
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: formality than in the city of Sydney. Would there be

612
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: a more casual connection between detectives in the police force

613
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: and citizens.

614
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 5: Not If you're potential suspect from murder, you certainly wouldn't

615
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 5: they associate with them or treat them as a friend

616
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 5: during a likely murder investigation.

617
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety three, however, the case never did rise

618
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: to the grave import of a likely murder investigation because

619
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: it appears that John Winfield was not looked at back

620
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: then as a potential suspect in his wife's murder. He

621
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: was treated more like the unfortunate bloke left behind to

622
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: raise the kids as a result of an erratic woman

623
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 1: doing a runner.

624
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 5: Even if you're treatment like did a disappearance, you still

625
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 5: wouldn't come across friendly. I mean, you've got to have

626
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 5: that distance there.

627
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: This is all coming from John, though, isn't it. He's

628
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: the one saying Graham, Graham, Graham. Check with Graham. He

629
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: could be potentially attempting to mislead you to think that

630
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: he's got this relationship with Graham Diskin, and because of

631
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 1: that relationship he can be trusted as a person of interest.

632
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: He wouldn't have done anything wrong. I mean, he could

633
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: be exaggerating the connection. I have previously tried to interview

634
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: the former detective Graham Diskin. The offer is still open.

635
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor has been candid about the fact that he

636
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: didn't see eye to eye with the police officer who

637
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: had first started investigating Brohman's disappearance in nineteen ninety three.

638
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 5: I have very little time for disc and when I

639
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 5: first came up from a homicide Newcastle to Bowliner, the

640
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 5: first time my meeting, he came in and introduced himself

641
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 5: on Brian Diskin, and I was said to the despert,

642
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 5: I'd just taken up. And this might have been only

643
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 5: within the first week or two of me arriving. He'd

644
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 5: previously been to sept me sergeing in that position. But

645
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 5: he said to me, don't think you're going to get

646
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 5: that seat to wall, but I'll be coming back for it.

647
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 5: And I thought, there is this fellow, what a thing

648
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 5: to say, just welcoming you to the town. You're going

649
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 5: to take the position back that I've just won on promotion.

650
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 5: I had very little time for him. He don't feel

651
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 5: like you want to rubbish another police officer that you

652
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 5: just start looking at least running sheds are thinking how.

653
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: Bad is this?

654
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 5: So many red flags here? And the ultimate responsibility for

655
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 5: Bromin's investigation nineteen ninety three was solely distance. He's to

656
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 5: detect his sergeant. He could say to his people, I

657
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 5: want this done, I want formal statements, okay, and then

658
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 5: we've got to get Winfield in for an interview, which

659
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 5: what should have been done be's one of the same

660
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 5: detective training that I would have done. This is the

661
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 5: potential crime scene. You've got to get it thoroughly inspected,

662
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 5: forensically examined.

663
00:42:40,840 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: Back when it happened, Maddie and I have been talking

664
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: about a trip and some field work. I'd like to

665
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: follow up a few leads in the shire next week,

666
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: maybe even go to Illowong. You'll recall that Illawong, a

667
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: suburb on the western fringes of the shire, is where

668
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 1: John was working laying bricks before his sudden flight from

669
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: Sydney to Ballina on Sunday May sixteenth. John was helping

670
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: build a two story family home for Glen Webster, a

671
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: respected local builder. You know the property I'm talking about, Yeah,

672
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: I do. Can we meet up?

673
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 11: Yeah, for sure. I want to see the house in person.

674
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 11: Not only that, I'd be very intrigued to know if

675
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 11: the owners of this house follow the podcast and have

676
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 11: heard of Bromwyn. Obviously it's awful, so think that that

677
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 11: place could be her resting place and they've been living

678
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 11: there for however long.

679
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 8: You can't really sugarcoat it.

680
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 11: It's shitty regardless whether she's in some body of water,

681
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 11: whether she's on the side of the road, or whether

682
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 11: she's under a souther concrete. It's terrible. We can only

683
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 11: hope that maybe we'll find her remains.

684
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: John has always emphatically denied wrongdoing, but since nineteen ninety

685
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 1: eight police have strongly suspected that he murdered his estranged wife, Bromwan.

686
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: If the police case is correct, Broman's body must have

687
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: been transported at some stage and for some distance in

688
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: the Ford Falcon sedan. In earlier episodes, you have heard

689
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: duty sing and audio from our unsuccessful search of Lake Ainsworth,

690
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: and you have also heard a theory that Bromwan's body

691
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: went into the boot of the Ford Falcon Sedan for

692
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 1: the sudden road trip to Sydney, and that John's unusual

693
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: urgency and action in leaving the two girls, Crystal and Lauren,

694
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: with John's ex wife's mother in law in the Shire

695
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: late on the morning of Monday May seventeen, gave him

696
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: time and opportunity to dispose of Broman's body. One location

697
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: repeatedly raised in relation to this theory is the building

698
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: site where John worked alone and where a concrete paw

699
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: was imminent. Now the Ford Falcon Sedan which belonged to

700
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 1: John and Broman was a former taxi. It was powered

701
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: by petrol and in a separate tank liquefied petroleum gas

702
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: or LPG. The tank and the piping for the LPG

703
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: sat in the boot. There was still a lot of

704
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: space for luggage, but there is a legitimate question about

705
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: whether the LPG tank would have made it difficult, perhaps

706
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: even impossible, to also put a body in the boot.

707
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,720
Speaker 1: I have been talking with Karna and a crop dusting

708
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 1: pilot in the West Australian town of Bunbury. Terry Freeman

709
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: is an owner and longtime fan of the Ford Falcon Sedan.

710
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: He has been driving and playing with them for a

711
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: few decades, and for months Terry has been listening carefully

712
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: to the Bromwin podcast series. He is providing valuable advice

713
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: and help to Broman's brother Andy Reid, Madison Walsh, and

714
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: to Karina and me. Oh, and he's pretty grateful.

715
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 12: I've got time Headley. Everybody I mentioned to what I'm doing,

716
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 12: they pick there.

717
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 6: He is up there, right behind it.

718
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: It's the crucial question, isn't it when we theorize about

719
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 1: this trip possibly to Willowong, and then you always think, well,

720
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: would that have even been possible? This idea that the

721
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: boot could have been used.

722
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 12: I've owned five of these EXF and other related series

723
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 12: of that model, which was built in that shape between

724
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 12: nineteen seventy nine and nine and eighty eight. Very spacious

725
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 12: vehicle and great family tour. I had a good general

726
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 12: knowledge of the xfon fairly. Andy on the Spanners, one

727
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 12: of those boys that grew up in the eighties and

728
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 12: we fixed everything we had back then.

729
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 6: I've owned fourteen aeroplanes. I still owned four.

730
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 12: You sort of get to learn every night and bold

731
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 12: in the machine if you want to be successful of

732
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 12: what you do.

733
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: Really, Terry's wife, Heather is very keen to help too.

734
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: To demonstrate the capacity of the Ford Falcon's boot or trunk,

735
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 1: Terry did some calling around and then Heather climbed into

736
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: a Ford Falcon with a standard LPG tank in the boot.

737
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 6: I rang the Bumbree autorecords.

738
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 12: When I told them what I was about, they were

739
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 12: super keen to get on board, and they said, well,

740
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 12: one of our employees has an ex Default, which is

741
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 12: the first of those three models jack same body shape,

742
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 12: and they made it available to me, but I had

743
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 12: to go around to their place that night to do it.

744
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 12: Heather and I grabbed a sheet from home they were

745
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 12: waiting for us. Let's took some photos of it as

746
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 12: it was. I went and borrowed a sixty letter gas

747
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 12: tank from a guy that's a tank setter, stuck that

748
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 12: tank in there, and then Heather jumped in the boot.

749
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 6: There's probably enough room for two Heathers in that boot.

750
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 12: Built slightly like bronin was, she easily fitted in to

751
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 12: that boot space.

752
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: But the standard LPG tank of sixty liters is smaller

753
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: than the one hundred liter LPG tank which the Ford

754
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: Falcons had as taxis.

755
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 6: It's a little bit more bolder, so it does protrude

756
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 6: out into the boot space, but in my mind it

757
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 6: could still fit easily a Bronze Warn or a Heather

758
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 6: into that boots space with no trouble whatsoever, but not much.

759
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: I just double checked with the missing person report. Now

760
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 1: this is assuming that that is accurate. But her height

761
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: was put down then as five foot eight, which is

762
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy two point seven centimeters. Now, I

763
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: think you said Heather's one hundred and sixty five centimeters.

764
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: Is that right?

765
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 7: Five?

766
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: Five five five, there's only a seven point seven centimeter difference,

767
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: let's call it eight centimeters. And looking at that photograph

768
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 1: of Heather that you took in the boot, there's plenty

769
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: of space from either her feet to the side wall

770
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: of the boot or from her head to account for

771
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 1: at least another three or four more inches exactly right.

772
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 6: Her knees were hardly bented all headily.

773
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: But Terry is a stubbornly determined man. He and I

774
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: wanted to run the exercise again with the larger tank

775
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: and ideally with an Zeff Falcon sedan. We just had

776
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 1: to find a Ford Falcon with those unique characteristics. Carina

777
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: and Terry went looking.

778
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 12: We don't know if the Windfields car did have that tank,

779
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 12: but one what a Shamet probably did.

780
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: Was it our tank that could potentially hold one hundred leaders,

781
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: but generally you only put in ninety leaders.

782
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 12: It's actually got an auto shot off valve that stops

783
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 12: you putting in any more than ninety leaders. You probably

784
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 12: only get eighty eight leaders in it before the auto

785
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 12: shutoff valve would plunk and stop the gas from going in.

786
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: And the tank that you've photographed is a seventy leter

787
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 1: tank that can hold sixty leaders.

788
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 6: Correct.

789
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 7: I thought it might be helpful if Terry could describe

790
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 7: where the tank is actually located in the boot of

791
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 7: the car.

792
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 12: The tank is situated right in the forward part of

793
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 12: the boot space, which is under the sill, and the

794
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 12: gas fitter toil that you would have to with the

795
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 12: big tanks. You would have to get your foot and

796
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 12: shove it riding with your foot to get it in hard.

797
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 6: Up against the back seats of the vehicle.

798
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 7: Did it always have to be located in that exact

799
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 7: spot to work or could you move it around potentially?

800
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 6: No, No, it would be hard bolted into that position.

801
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 7: And you think that the body of the car and

802
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 7: particularly the boots would have been very similar, if not

803
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 7: the same dimensions.

804
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 12: The difference in the burt is that the XD which

805
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 12: I took the photo of heather In had a shallow

806
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 12: burt because the spare wheel would sit underneath flat in

807
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 12: the burt in a wheel well. It looks like they've

808
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 12: changed from the XE and the XF to the wheel

809
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 12: being mounted on the right hand side in a well

810
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 12: up against the side body of the car.

811
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: Romwin's brother Andy Reid, has been answering some of Terry's

812
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: questions over recent weeks. You'll recall that Andy looked inside

813
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: the boot of the Ford Falcon x F sedan in

814
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: the late afternoon of Monday, May seventeen. John had arrived

815
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 1: a short time earlier with the two girls. Strangely, their

816
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: clothes were not in suitcases, they were in pillowcases. Andy

817
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: recalled in a conversation with Terry that the spare wheel

818
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 1: was sitting flat in the boot. Andy had previously told

819
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: me that the boot space was missing its trim. Here's

820
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: a reminder from episode nine.

821
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 13: Once I got home, I asked him and we went

822
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 13: up to the back at the car and he opened

823
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 13: the boot. That's where he got out the two small

824
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 13: pillow cases that had three or four items of clothing

825
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 13: chucked in each pillow case, but nothing was added touate

826
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 13: for Sydney weather. That just struck me how clean the

827
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 13: boot was and there was only the metal lighting. I

828
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 13: could see the spare tire by line.

829
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: You mean no upholstery, do carpet, none of the usual stuff.

830
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 8: Well in the.

831
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 13: Old days, old cast like that. Yeah, they just had

832
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 13: like an old vinyl type lining.

833
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 6: Well.

834
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 12: Andy said that the spare wheel was most likely just

835
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 12: sitting flat in the boot and there was no trim

836
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 12: in the boot. There's usually either a vinyl trim or

837
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 12: in all the ones I've seen, there's like a felt trim.

838
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 12: I asked him pecifically, now, was that will center bolted

839
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,919
Speaker 12: flat in the boot or was it just sitting there?

840
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 12: And he said he did not recall it being center

841
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 12: bolted to the flat part of the boot.

842
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: Let's assume that the wheel was in the boot and

843
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 1: it was off to the right, as was the case

844
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: with that model. What do you reckon about someone three

845
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: to four inches taller than the heather being able to

846
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: fit into that space within one hundred liters tank holding

847
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: ninety leaders of gas.

848
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 12: One hundred percent would fit in there, no trouble at all.

849
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 12: There's plenty of round for all your suitcases and luggage

850
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 12: in a taxi with an one hundred laud a tank.

851
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: Very good of you to take this amount of interest, Terry.

852
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: Do you do this with other cases that you listen to?

853
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 12: Well, I don't, Headley, but this is the second podcast

854
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 12: I've ever listened to a mull over things a lot.

855
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 12: I sort of come up with these sort of timelines

856
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 12: in my brain. Well, if he did this, what would

857
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 12: happen and follow it right through to the end. I

858
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 12: suppose It's part of what I do with my job. Really,

859
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 12: You've got to think ahead all the time. But I'm

860
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 12: still open to everything else because we only know what

861
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 12: we've been told and what we keep finding out.

862
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 6: It's just experienced headily.

863
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: What struck you from that interview about John's makeup?

864
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 12: He can think on the run, he thinks, clearly doesn't

865
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 12: share much of his thoughts with anyone at all.

866
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: Very shortly before the release of this episode, Terry found

867
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,959
Speaker 1: a Ford Falcon identical in almost every way to John

868
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: and Bronwan's old excef Ford Falcon model and the one

869
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: that Terry found had the larger LPG tank in the boot.

870
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: Heather and Terry went to work. Terry, could you, just

871
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: for the record describe the year, make, and model of

872
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 1: that vehicle that Heather got into.

873
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 12: That's a nineteen eighty six Ford EXF Falcon, the same

874
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 12: as that Winfield's had as even white.

875
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,720
Speaker 1: You believe that that gas tank that's in that vehicle

876
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: is the size of the gas tanks that were commonplace

877
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: for the taxis correct, Heather, I was wondering whether you

878
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: could tell me how you got into that space.

879
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 8: I easily, easiley just climbed in and climbed out. I

880
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 8: had a lot of rooming there.

881
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: When I was looking close at the photo, it looked

882
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: like your knees were slightly bent. If a woman a

883
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 1: bit taller than you, yeap needed to fit into that space.

884
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: What do you say about whether it's possible?

885
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 8: Oh, easily.

886
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: There's an eight centimeter difference then, between Heather and Bromwin.

887
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: What do you say either about there still being enough.

888
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 6: Room or not easily?

889
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 9: And I had a lot of space around my knees

890
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 9: and my body, and.

891
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 7: It looked like too there was a bit of a

892
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 7: cavity behind the wheel next to the gas tape there.

893
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: Is right, okay, well done, lady.

894
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 12: Luck it didn't slip through everything as I could have,

895
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 12: but we managed to get it.

896
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, I went to Sydney. Maddie collected me at the

897
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: airport for the drive to Andy and Michelle's house in

898
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: the Shire. We had a lot to do. I fell

899
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: asleep on the plane. That's good. I got an email

900
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,919
Speaker 1: from someone and he was talking about dogs. How amazing

901
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: these dogs are that they picked up a scent?

902
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 11: Would they be able to step through concrete?

903
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 8: I'll go cold. Just got a cold copy.

904
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: That'd be great, Michelle.

905
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 8: Thank you.

906
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: These documents from the building application file. This is for

907
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: the house a little long, yep.

908
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 5: And these are the ones that you and Maddie got

909
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 5: from the council.

910
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: They're the ones we managed to track down. That's the

911
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: cover shoot of the file.

912
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 14: And then it's just got the dates and times of

913
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 14: when various inspections were done, when the plants were approved,

914
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 14: when approvals came through and whatnot.

915
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just during the building phase of the house.

916
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 6: Slab which also incorporated the front porch.

917
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 14: They're the only three of slabs that were on ground

918
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 14: level at the early stage of the job and the

919
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 14: garage slam inspection was signed off on Thursday, thirteenth of May.

920
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: That means that it.

921
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,479
Speaker 14: Was signed off and I got the tick on here

922
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 14: and it was.

923
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: Approved to be able to pull.

924
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,439
Speaker 14: The garage and front porch slabs were given the tick

925
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 14: of approval to be able to pull, which we believed

926
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 14: from conversations with Glenn was poured on the Tuesday on

927
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 14: Wednesday the following.

928
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: Week, So that paw is for the garage slab, the

929
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: garage slab and the front porch. Does that then indicate

930
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: to you if Bromhan's there, it's under the garard slab

931
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: all that porch.

932
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 8: Yeah.

933
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: I was told that John said he needed to be

934
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: there for a concrete paw and he was agitated and

935
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: anxious about that pour. And that was on the Monday

936
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: that he was saying that there's a concrete pour it's coming.

937
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: Drawing on your knowledge as a builder, thinking about the

938
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 1: slab in the garage first, what would someone need to

939
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: do if they'd come with a body on a Monday

940
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: afternoon to a slab that's been ready for pouring of concrete.

941
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 14: What would they need to change the garage slab would

942
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 14: have been back filled with dirt. You would have needed

943
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 14: to detach the top layer of mesh in a section

944
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 14: the reinforcement, and there was no need for footage or

945
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 14: anything because the footage are already poured. They would need

946
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 14: to lift up the messh in some way, lift back.

947
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: The plastic, dick down dim down into the dirt that's

948
00:59:57,760 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: below the plastic.

949
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 14: Yes, dig a trend swrong enough that you need to

950
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 14: put someone in there and roll the body in underneath

951
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 14: there at the dirt back down, spread the dirt around,

952
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 14: put the plastic down back down neatly, rather than the

953
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,919
Speaker 14: mesh back down. Put the dirt back over the top,

954
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 14: put the plastic back down, plastic over the top.

955
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 8: And then you pull the concrete.

956
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: You've got certainty.

957
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 7: But the thing is how much dirt was that below

958
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 7: the plastic and.

959
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 14: The mess we bring loose sweetbers him. It wasn't as

960
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 14: if you were digging in the virgin ground. The block

961
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 14: of land slapes backwards could have been six hundred mil

962
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 14: or seven hundred mil or three foot of loose fill.

963
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 14: So that's the garage option. What about the front brot

964
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 14: Pauch Just beside that, the same scenario that.

965
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: Porch all was part of the same Paul, are you

966
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: waiting for a call down from Glenn or should we

967
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: we can? I can just call him. Britt's available. Now

968
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: let's go and see said He's got three jobs going

969
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: at once at the moment. We start at intercuts the

970
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: hair seal on there. We go from there to Jenny

971
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: Mason's old house where John went where he asked Jenny's

972
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: mother in law to look after the kids. And then

973
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: I want to go directly to the house of el

974
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: Along that John was helping Glenn Webster build, and hopefully

975
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: we can also see Glenn Webster.

976
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 6: Any at a.

977
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're right to lave my place when mate?

978
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 13: All right, okay, so ensure it's okay.

979
01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:00,040
Speaker 1: Bron has written and investigated by me Headley Thomas, a

980
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information which

981
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: may help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially

982
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 1: by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

983
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

984
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn

985
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first,

986
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: the production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

987
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

988
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callanan, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio

989
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audeo and

990
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted

991
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can

992
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 1: only do this kind of journalism with the support of

993
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For

994
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 1: all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents

995
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: about this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet,

996
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy,

997
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com

998
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe,