1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: From the newsroom a news still come to you. 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 2: Gooday there, I'm Andrew Bucklowe. In today's episode, we're doing 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: a deep dive on the machines that have changed the 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 2: nature of modern warfare. I am, of course talking about 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: drones from the trenches of Ukraine the deserts in the 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 2: Middle East. The drones are no longer just eyes in 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: the sky. Their kamikazi weapons, surveillance ghosts and jam proof assassins. 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the beginning of the drone age. 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: Ukraine says it carried out large scale drone attacks on 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: multiple air bases, including some thousands of miles inside Russia. 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: The plan, like something from a spy thriller, took eighteen 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: months and involved smuggling drones into Russia. The drones then 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: hidden in makeshift wooden cabins mounted on cargo trucks, the 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: roof opening remotely. 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: Breaking news, Israel's top military spokesperson just announced that Iran 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: has launched one hundred drones at Israel. Yeah, drones certainly 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 2: have been popping up in the news a lot lately. 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: Joining me now to discuss them is doctor Alexandra Maloy 19 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: from the University of New South Wales who's an expert 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: in the use of drones in war. Thank you so 21 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: much for chattingtonews dot com dot AU. 22 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me tell me. 23 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,639 Speaker 2: How have drones changed the way wars are fought compared 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: to just ten years ago, because they just seem to 25 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: be everywhere. 26 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,919 Speaker 3: Look, what I would say is that more has changed 27 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 3: for the last ten months than for the lasting years, 28 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 3: and pretty much for the last ten days. While in 29 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 3: previous concepts of war, the drones mainly were used as 30 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 3: the large and expensive platforms that were capable of performing 31 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: various missions and flying over long distances, but also doing 32 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: a specific mission for example of precise strikes. Right, So 33 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: they tried to combine multiple functions and they were quite powerful, 34 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: and they still are. But what we've seen recently in 35 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: various applications of the war is readed out small, cheap 36 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 3: and expand has really changed the way how the modern 37 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 3: warfare is fought. And look, they have become central, not peripheral. 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 3: And I think that's the key. And I think what 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: is striking is really the way and the functions of 40 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: these drones that they're performing. They are no longer just 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 3: those observers in the sky performing their surveillance and reconnaissance. 42 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 3: They're really performing very functions. 43 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: There's a number of different drones being used in warfare 44 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: at the moment. One of the most popular is FPV 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: or first person view drones, which allow the user to 46 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: pilot them via a live video feed. They're relatively cheap, 47 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: but can cause a lot of damage by dropping bombs 48 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: onto targets or by flying into targets while packed with 49 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 2: small explosives. 50 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: FIV drones are continuously monitoring, so it's very hard to 51 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 3: be able to just really high from them. Just imagine 52 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 3: that the battlefield is absolutely transparent, so you can see 53 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: everything in everyone and anything that is moving, and you 54 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 3: can see how dred kilometers away will be easily detected 55 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 3: and destroyed. 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: Loitering munitions, also known as suicide or kamakazi drones are 57 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: also popular. As the name suggests, these drones are used 58 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: to crash into targets and explode. 59 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 3: Schure Hit one three six is the one way as 60 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 3: suicide drone. It can carry up to fifty kilograms of 61 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: warhead and it flies over two thy five hundred kilometers. 62 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: There's also reconnaissance or surveillance drones. 63 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 3: They can basically see quite far, like within hundreds of 64 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 3: kilometerists and so I can identify and communicate with other 65 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 3: types of drones. 66 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: And there's combat drones or bombers which are used for 67 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: long range precision strikes on high value targets. 68 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 3: They started from just a few cure kilometerists flying to 69 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: now capable offline four thousand kilometers away, and I think 70 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: this is quite significant achievement in terms of the development 71 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: and also proliferation of these capabilities. 72 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: Apart from just drop being bombs or kamakazi drones that 73 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: are flying into targets, what are the other uses of 74 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 2: drones in modern warfare? 75 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: So apart from just I assigned striking, one of then 76 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: important missions is specifically logistics. Let's say that's done remotely, 77 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: so currently as well by arncrewed ground vehicles where these 78 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: systems are provide the resupply to the frontline and in 79 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 3: some territories is just fifty percent and others just mainly 80 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 3: done by drones. So when they provide logistics in terms 81 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 3: of you of course ammunition, but also necessary equipment, things 82 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 3: that needed and medications on and so forth. So another 83 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 3: part is important is humanitarian aid and surge and rescue. 84 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: I like to give the example for people to remember 85 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: their k Kofka dam strikes. 86 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: Ukraine is accusing Russian forces of blowing up a dam, 87 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: triggering floods and endangering Europe's largest nuclear power plant while 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: threatening drinking water applies in. 89 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: The region, and the way in that disaster that drones 90 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: were also the only supporters, you know, in terms of 91 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 3: medical supply, but also food, but also saving people and 92 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 3: saving lives. Another important part is mining and de mining 93 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 3: that ONCRED systems are doing quite effectively because it's always 94 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: great to send the machine and this autonomous system or 95 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 3: automated system remotely operated to be able to perform these missions. 96 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 3: So as for last year, probably two hundred thousand square 97 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 3: kilometers of Ukrainian territory, it's probably more what's mined and 98 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 3: instead of sending a human to perform this dangerous mission. 99 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 3: So I think they are of course better performed by 100 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: these systems. 101 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: Stick around. In just a moment, doctor Alexandra will explain 102 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: what the future of drone warfare is going to look like. 103 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: Welcome back on chatting to doctor Alexandro at Malloy. Now 104 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: doctor newly drones are being developed for use in war 105 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 2: each day, so I can only assume so two A 106 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: countermeasures which are designed to stop drone attacks, Is that right? 107 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Look I think that's some error that must 108 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: not be underestimated because there may be like a lot 109 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: of attention to just drones itself, but look they need 110 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 3: to go alone together because whene there's the measure, there 111 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 3: need to be this countermeasure, like an imagine just recently 112 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: there strikes like overnight or four hundred drones or more 113 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 3: on Ukraine by Russia, so really requires that strong air 114 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 3: defense and of course the layered approach in terms of that, 115 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 3: so it needs to be continuous and sustained, I think 116 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: the layer defense systems, so of course gemming and spoofing 117 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 3: and different physical protections well in kinetic means they should 118 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: be all in place, so there should be a different 119 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: levels you know at soldier carried placed on vehicles or 120 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 3: other systems, and also stationary jamming with larger readers being 121 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 3: able to identify as well and action on that. So 122 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 3: we've seen various development of these, including you know, physical 123 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 3: variers on the specific systems and also the whole corridors 124 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 3: on the battlefield to be able to protect protect against 125 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 3: the drones. 126 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: One of the challenges of designing countermeasures is the fact 127 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: that drone technology is always changing. For example, in recent 128 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: times there's been an increase in fiber optic drones. These 129 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: are connected to a physical cable and can fly up 130 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: to thirty kilometers away from the launch site. Now, unlike 131 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: standard drones, they don't rely on radio signals to be operated, 132 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: meaning they can't be jammed or taken over by a 133 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: third party. 134 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: So there are new challenges for the systems to be countered. 135 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: And again we come to the point that drones itself 136 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 3: are quite cheap, so the solutions for to counter them 137 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: shouldn't be like million dollars or one hundred thousands, So 138 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: it needs to be like a specific part, so some 139 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 3: of the common ones, and we can see that mobile 140 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: fire brigades just shooting the drones when they're identified. But 141 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: we need those systems first of all to detect and 142 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: then to effect, and it's important to have those radio 143 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 3: electronic reconnaissance and signal intel to identify where the systems 144 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 3: are and then to be able to protect against them 145 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 3: and quickly choose the solution. Again, when we think about 146 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 3: that FPVY drone. So it just flies so fast, like 147 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty kilometers per hour. It is small, 148 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: how to see, it's how to detect, how to protect 149 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: and when they fly in mass, Yeah, definitely some of 150 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 3: them will get through. So I think that's very important 151 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 3: topic and that definitely needs to be looked into by 152 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: all countries. 153 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: And looking ahead. What does the future of drone warfare 154 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: look like? 155 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. I think if you 156 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 3: asked the three years ago like it will be hard 157 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: to believe that these systems will actually achieve so much 158 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: within the short period of time. Well, I definitely believe 159 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: in the combination of crude and crude systems, so where 160 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 3: there is a balance between expensive and powerful systems as 161 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 3: well as small and expandable like drones. Any future war 162 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 3: as well as we've seen recently. You know, whether it 163 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: was India Pakistan that we're starting with using drones or 164 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 3: Israel Iran, so both sites are using their system so 165 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: definitely that will be looked at the development and sophistication 166 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 3: of their capabilities and being able to achieve mass and 167 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,239 Speaker 3: also develop both quality and quantity. There are some development 168 00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: in our AI enabled capabilities for example able Thomas navigation 169 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: and blog and target and our part software. But I 170 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 3: think it's too early to talk about a specific developments 171 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: and proliferation of these systems as yet, but that could 172 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 3: be the future. And really it's a continuous development and 173 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 3: sophistication of the systems. At the same time, By having 174 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 3: said that, it's really about being able to simply obtain 175 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 3: this system, to simply train and use, and we need 176 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: to sustain this development. 177 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating topic and yeah, I'm sure it's only 178 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 2: going to explode pardon the pun in years to come. 179 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: Doctor Alexandra Malo from the University of New South Wales, 180 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: thank you so much for chatting to from the newsroom. 181 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. 182 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: Well, if you want to keep up to date on 183 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: all the conflicts around the world right now, Russia versus Ukraine, 184 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 2: around versus Israel, take you pick whichever one you're interested in. 185 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: Now you can get the latest details at news dot 186 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: com at dot au. Thank you so much for listening. 187 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 2: I'll chat to you again tomorrow. 188 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,119 Speaker 1: Follows decribe to from the newsroom wherever you get your podcasts.