1 00:00:05,850 --> 00:00:08,190 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed business interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:08,190 --> 00:00:10,530 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. What does it take for an Aussie company to 3 00:00:10,530 --> 00:00:13,650 Sean Aylmer: expand globally? This week we're seeing it playing out for 4 00:00:13,650 --> 00:00:18,000 Sean Aylmer: two different companies with vastly different results. On one hand, 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,930 Sean Aylmer: we have property giant, Lendlease, abandoning its international strategy, or 6 00:00:21,930 --> 00:00:23,759 Sean Aylmer: most of it at least, selling down stakes in its 7 00:00:23,759 --> 00:00:26,880 Sean Aylmer: offshore developments to focus on growth at home. On the 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,190 Sean Aylmer: other hand, BHP is going all out in its bid 9 00:00:29,190 --> 00:00:32,790 Sean Aylmer: to acquire UK- based rival Anglo- American in the biggest 10 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:36,390 Sean Aylmer: deal Australia will have ever seen. That's if it occurs. 11 00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:40,290 Sean Aylmer: It's certainly not just these two though. Domino's Pizza, CSL, 12 00:00:40,290 --> 00:00:44,459 Sean Aylmer: Goodman, WiseTech, the banks, global expansion is a well- trodden path 13 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:48,150 Sean Aylmer: with varying strategies and varying degrees of success. So just 14 00:00:48,150 --> 00:00:51,479 Sean Aylmer: how good is our track record as a nation and 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,369 Sean Aylmer: what's it take for an Aussie company to make it 16 00:00:53,369 --> 00:00:56,220 Sean Aylmer: globally? Remember, this is general information only and you should 17 00:00:56,220 --> 00:01:00,150 Sean Aylmer: seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Todd Hoare is 18 00:01:00,150 --> 00:01:04,500 Sean Aylmer: head of public markets at LGT Crestone. Todd, welcome to 19 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:05,160 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 20 00:01:05,759 --> 00:01:06,779 Todd Hoare: Thanks, Sean. Great to be here. 21 00:01:07,289 --> 00:01:10,980 Sean Aylmer: Let's start with Lendlease. What do you make of their 22 00:01:11,039 --> 00:01:15,539 Sean Aylmer: new approach? Is it an admission that their global strategy 23 00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:16,680 Sean Aylmer: basically didn't work? 24 00:01:17,459 --> 00:01:21,238 Todd Hoare: I think it's absolutely an admission that conditions have significantly 25 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,940 Todd Hoare: changed over the better part of probably the last five 26 00:01:23,940 --> 00:01:28,680 Todd Hoare: to 10 years. Australia, we haven't actually had an activist 27 00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:33,240 Todd Hoare: mentality in terms of investment in Australia generally speaking, it's 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,060 Todd Hoare: always been very, very soft. But you've obviously seen with 29 00:01:36,060 --> 00:01:38,309 Todd Hoare: John Wylie at Tanarra, you've seen with David Di Pilla 30 00:01:38,309 --> 00:01:41,910 Todd Hoare: at Home Co, those investors in particular, and I guess 31 00:01:41,969 --> 00:01:45,029 Todd Hoare: Alan Gray as well, have taken a slightly more hands- 32 00:01:45,030 --> 00:01:49,680 Todd Hoare: on approach to Lendlease in particular and what they think 33 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,500 Todd Hoare: will work for that company, and that is quite frankly, 34 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:54,090 Todd Hoare: a shrinking to greatness. 35 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,219 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, this whole activist approach, which we have seen. There 36 00:01:59,219 --> 00:02:02,639 Sean Aylmer: have been people, I suppose Anton and Jeff Wilson and 37 00:02:02,639 --> 00:02:05,549 Sean Aylmer: some of those guys have over time been a bit 38 00:02:05,549 --> 00:02:08,310 Sean Aylmer: more activist, but we're certainly seeing a lot more of 39 00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:11,370 Sean Aylmer: it. Does a company like Lendlease, it really has to 40 00:02:11,370 --> 00:02:15,360 Sean Aylmer: listen to those guys? It just seems they have more power now, or maybe 41 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:16,560 Sean Aylmer: they're just doing it more publicly. 42 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:21,599 Todd Hoare: I think it's a combination of things. They obviously have 43 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:25,440 Todd Hoare: more power in that they were taking genuine stakes of 44 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,550 Todd Hoare: reasonable positions in these companies. The second thing I would 45 00:02:29,550 --> 00:02:33,090 Todd Hoare: note is that all of those investors that we mentioned 46 00:02:33,090 --> 00:02:39,660 Todd Hoare: previously had to varying degrees pedigree in this particular industry- 47 00:02:39,690 --> 00:02:39,691 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 48 00:02:39,691 --> 00:02:42,869 Todd Hoare: ... and that carries significant weight. And I'd say that 49 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:45,840 Todd Hoare: the third thing and probably the most important thing, and 50 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,240 Todd Hoare: one of the things that you were driving at is 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,590 Todd Hoare: that they had ample ammunition because Lendlease's track record over 52 00:02:52,590 --> 00:02:56,008 Todd Hoare: the last 10 to 15 years has not been great. They have 53 00:02:56,008 --> 00:03:00,059 Todd Hoare: not executed particularly well, and that left themselves, the board 54 00:03:00,119 --> 00:03:03,270 Todd Hoare: and the senior management team, that left themselves open to 55 00:03:03,270 --> 00:03:06,450 Todd Hoare: these types of approaches and this type of restructure, and 56 00:03:06,450 --> 00:03:09,780 Todd Hoare: ultimately they were left with little choice. This was in 57 00:03:09,780 --> 00:03:12,809 Todd Hoare: the best interest of shareholders to go down this path. 58 00:03:13,530 --> 00:03:17,038 Todd Hoare: Their ability to execute now becomes paramount, and how long 59 00:03:17,038 --> 00:03:21,090 Todd Hoare: and how easy that can occur is probably the next 60 00:03:21,090 --> 00:03:22,980 Todd Hoare: set of questions that investors will be asking. 61 00:03:23,730 --> 00:03:26,850 Sean Aylmer: Let's switch to BHP and its pursuit of Anglo American. 62 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,320 Sean Aylmer: BHP hasn't got a totally clean track record either in 63 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,879 Sean Aylmer: terms of acquiring businesses or merging with businesses offshore, though 64 00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:37,890 Sean Aylmer: as a very large company, they seem to have done 65 00:03:37,890 --> 00:03:40,950 Sean Aylmer: it pretty well in places like Canada and Potash and 66 00:03:40,950 --> 00:03:44,070 Sean Aylmer: stuff like that. What is it about BHP that makes 67 00:03:44,070 --> 00:03:46,739 Sean Aylmer: it better than Lendlease? Is it a size thing, is 68 00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:49,259 Sean Aylmer: it an execution thing? Is it the industry it's in? 69 00:03:49,410 --> 00:03:49,860 Sean Aylmer: What is it? 70 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:51,990 Todd Hoare: We probably need to be a little bit careful of 71 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:56,520 Todd Hoare: saying that they are better than others. They certainly operate 72 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,550 Todd Hoare: in a global business. They sell- 73 00:03:59,610 --> 00:03:59,701 Sean Aylmer: Uh- huh, yeah. 74 00:03:59,701 --> 00:04:04,020 Todd Hoare: ... global commodities to offshore investors, so they'd certainly take 75 00:04:04,020 --> 00:04:09,089 Todd Hoare: a global macroeconomic perspective, but they have had their own 76 00:04:09,089 --> 00:04:12,780 Todd Hoare: issues. Obviously they sold the Petrohawk assets. They sold their 77 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:16,320 Todd Hoare: Gulf of Mexico oil and gas assets. You could go 78 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,450 Todd Hoare: back and have a look at Rio Tinto with their ill- 79 00:04:18,450 --> 00:04:22,050 Todd Hoare: fated Alcan acquisition at one point as well. And I 80 00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:26,069 Todd Hoare: think the important thing to note that, particularly for BHP 81 00:04:26,099 --> 00:04:30,930 Todd Hoare: and Rio, they are global behemoths that do mine and 82 00:04:30,930 --> 00:04:34,500 Todd Hoare: generate profits offshore, but at the end of the day, 83 00:04:34,890 --> 00:04:40,558 Todd Hoare: probably something like 60 to 70% of their asset base of their 84 00:04:40,559 --> 00:04:45,628 Todd Hoare: EBITDA comes from very, very profitable iron ore businesses, and 85 00:04:45,630 --> 00:04:48,930 Todd Hoare: at some point coal businesses here in Australia. They are 86 00:04:48,930 --> 00:04:54,150 Todd Hoare: a predominantly Australian business happening to sell Aussie natural resources 87 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:57,059 Todd Hoare: offshore. And I would hazard a guess that if we 88 00:04:57,059 --> 00:04:59,849 Todd Hoare: go back through time, the bulk of the value that 89 00:04:59,849 --> 00:05:02,878 Todd Hoare: is accrued to shareholders has come from those Australian assets, 90 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,030 Todd Hoare: not necessarily anything that they may have done offshore. So 91 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:09,300 Todd Hoare: their bid for Anglo, even though they are I think 92 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:12,270 Todd Hoare: trying to minimize that risk by de- list or by 93 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:16,859 Todd Hoare: hiving off certain assets and keeping the better ones, it 94 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:19,380 Todd Hoare: still remains to be seen how that will play out 95 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:23,339 Todd Hoare: in terms of the value transfer from BHP shareholders to 96 00:05:23,339 --> 00:05:25,320 Todd Hoare: Anglo shareholders if it were to occur. 97 00:05:26,130 --> 00:05:27,960 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Todd. We'll be back in a minute. 98 00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:37,139 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Todd Hoare, head of public 99 00:05:37,139 --> 00:05:42,899 Sean Aylmer: markets at LGT Crestone. The point about Rio and BHP 100 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:46,500 Sean Aylmer: operating in a global economy is well- made. What about 101 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:49,440 Sean Aylmer: if we shift to QBE has done it over the 102 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,460 Sean Aylmer: years, WiseTech Global has done a lot of acquisitions over 103 00:05:53,460 --> 00:05:57,990 Sean Aylmer: time. CSL did the VIFOR Pharmaceutical one a couple of 104 00:05:57,990 --> 00:06:01,140 Sean Aylmer: years ago. What is it? I mean, I suppose what I'm trying 105 00:06:01,140 --> 00:06:02,909 Sean Aylmer: to get to is when you come from a country 106 00:06:02,910 --> 00:06:06,960 Sean Aylmer: like Australia and you run a big business here, how 107 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,150 Sean Aylmer: easy is it to be successful offshore? 108 00:06:10,230 --> 00:06:13,259 Todd Hoare: I think the quick answer is it's not easy. You 109 00:06:13,259 --> 00:06:16,109 Todd Hoare: gave a number of examples there. Some of them are 110 00:06:16,109 --> 00:06:19,140 Todd Hoare: very successful and some of them are not. I think 111 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:23,640 Todd Hoare: what's important to note, and maybe the BHP analogy is 112 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,550 Todd Hoare: a good one, is that we potentially should be breaking 113 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:32,460 Todd Hoare: down Australia's offshore exposures into different buckets. So obviously there 114 00:06:32,460 --> 00:06:34,949 Todd Hoare: is the commodity exposure bucket that we mentioned,- 115 00:06:34,949 --> 00:06:35,070 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, yeah. 116 00:06:35,070 --> 00:06:39,570 Todd Hoare: ... but they are predominantly having Aussie assets selling globally. 117 00:06:39,750 --> 00:06:45,660 Todd Hoare: I wouldn't necessarily categorize them as offshore expanders. There are 118 00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:50,069 Todd Hoare: the product innovators that you mentioned, companies like a CSL, 119 00:06:50,069 --> 00:06:53,639 Todd Hoare: a ResMed, a Cochlear that have dominant positions in a 120 00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:56,850 Todd Hoare: particular niche that they have been able to sell globally 121 00:06:57,150 --> 00:07:01,380 Todd Hoare: and then turn those cash cows into in some instances 122 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,188 Todd Hoare: other businesses. In the case of CSL, the VIFOR acquisition potentially at 123 00:07:05,190 --> 00:07:08,488 Todd Hoare: this stage hasn't quite worked as well for them. Then 124 00:07:08,490 --> 00:07:11,639 Todd Hoare: you've got these business model innovators of which probably the 125 00:07:11,639 --> 00:07:13,530 Todd Hoare: best one we've had for a long time is Macquarie, 126 00:07:13,890 --> 00:07:16,530 Todd Hoare: where they were able to take a country that was 127 00:07:16,530 --> 00:07:20,850 Todd Hoare: an earlier adopter in superannuation, long- term money plowing into 128 00:07:21,059 --> 00:07:24,690 Todd Hoare: longer term unlisted type of assets. They were able to 129 00:07:24,690 --> 00:07:27,750 Todd Hoare: take a very, very good domestic business model that was 130 00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:31,290 Todd Hoare: also applicable offshore. And then I think more recently, and 131 00:07:31,290 --> 00:07:34,290 Todd Hoare: this is where I think public and private markets are 132 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,870 Todd Hoare: just starting to morph a little bit, is that you've 133 00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:40,860 Todd Hoare: got these business models that were always from their very 134 00:07:40,860 --> 00:07:44,279 Todd Hoare: infancy adopted globally. They were always going to be globally 135 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,770 Todd Hoare: fit for purpose. So to that extent, you think of 136 00:07:46,859 --> 00:07:50,580 Todd Hoare: companies like Canva, like an Atlassian or WiseTech Global I think you 137 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:53,970 Todd Hoare: mentioned earlier, the markets for them were always going to 138 00:07:53,970 --> 00:07:57,449 Todd Hoare: be bigger offshore, but they built their business models with 139 00:07:57,450 --> 00:08:00,870 Todd Hoare: that in mind, right from the outset. One other point 140 00:08:00,870 --> 00:08:04,170 Todd Hoare: I would note is that we've had some very, very 141 00:08:04,170 --> 00:08:08,280 Todd Hoare: successful offshore companies. The one thing that they have in 142 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,220 Todd Hoare: common is that they haven't just done this overnight. So 143 00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:14,010 Todd Hoare: if you think of things like you mentioned WiseTech, that's 144 00:08:14,550 --> 00:08:16,589 Todd Hoare: I think 30 years old this year? 145 00:08:16,590 --> 00:08:16,800 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 146 00:08:18,090 --> 00:08:21,660 Todd Hoare: Altium, which is getting bought by a Japanese business later 147 00:08:21,660 --> 00:08:26,940 Todd Hoare: this year, they started in 1984. Pro Medicus, a software 148 00:08:26,940 --> 00:08:31,290 Todd Hoare: healthcare company, started in 1982. These are all 30 plus 149 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:34,679 Todd Hoare: year businesses that may have started here, but have slowly 150 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,480 Todd Hoare: and slowly gone offshore and they've never truly risked enormous 151 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,319 Todd Hoare: capital upfront. It's always been a very measured, a very 152 00:08:43,380 --> 00:08:45,840 Todd Hoare: incremental approach to moving offshore. 153 00:08:47,490 --> 00:08:50,340 Sean Aylmer: I mean, I don't know whether you have followed much, 154 00:08:50,340 --> 00:08:53,130 Sean Aylmer: Todd, about Domino's. I've always been interested in that because 155 00:08:53,130 --> 00:08:56,069 Sean Aylmer: it's taken its model here and it's the franchise rights 156 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,929 Sean Aylmer: for places like Japan and then parts of Europe, France, 157 00:09:00,929 --> 00:09:04,230 Sean Aylmer: Germany, Luxembourg, et cetera. Do we have many of those 158 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:06,750 Sean Aylmer: sorts of stories around it? To me, that sort of 159 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:08,580 Sean Aylmer: seems a little bit out of the box, that one. 160 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,500 Todd Hoare: No pun intended I guess. 161 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:10,800 Sean Aylmer: No. 162 00:09:12,690 --> 00:09:15,540 Todd Hoare: The interesting thing with Domino's is if you were to 163 00:09:15,540 --> 00:09:18,540 Todd Hoare: remove the share price performance and just look at store rollout, 164 00:09:18,570 --> 00:09:18,571 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, yeah. 165 00:09:18,571 --> 00:09:20,730 Todd Hoare: ... and if you just looked at store rollout, are they 166 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:25,679 Todd Hoare: being successful? Possibly they are rolling out a significant number 167 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,310 Todd Hoare: of stores, but what they are walking the market back, 168 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:31,710 Todd Hoare: they're walking the market back from the quantum of those 169 00:09:31,710 --> 00:09:35,879 Todd Hoare: store rollouts. And so potentially there's just this mismatch between 170 00:09:35,879 --> 00:09:38,189 Todd Hoare: what we thought they were able to do and what 171 00:09:38,190 --> 00:09:41,760 Todd Hoare: they're actually able to achieve. I think where your question 172 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,760 Todd Hoare: might be leading is we've just got to be careful 173 00:09:44,940 --> 00:09:49,920 Todd Hoare: for Australian companies going offshore that their business model works 174 00:09:49,950 --> 00:09:53,189 Todd Hoare: not only domestically but also globally. And they're not just 175 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:58,200 Todd Hoare: successful in Australia because of incumbency or maybe the demographic's 176 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,099 Todd Hoare: spread along the East Coast just enables Domino's to do 177 00:10:02,099 --> 00:10:08,069 Todd Hoare: well. For example, CommBank. A tremendous business. A very, very well- 178 00:10:08,070 --> 00:10:11,819 Todd Hoare: run and relatively high ROE bank. Are they very, very 179 00:10:11,820 --> 00:10:16,920 Todd Hoare: good? Yes. Could they replicate that offshore? Probably, in fact, 180 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,749 Todd Hoare: almost certainly not. They have a huge incumbent market. They're 181 00:10:21,750 --> 00:10:25,079 Todd Hoare: the number one. But taking that business model and competing 182 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,740 Todd Hoare: against a JP Morgan or someone else is almost certainly 183 00:10:28,740 --> 00:10:31,950 Todd Hoare: going to end in failure. So I think being aware 184 00:10:31,950 --> 00:10:36,720 Todd Hoare: of what a company's competitive strengths are, what their ability 185 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,990 Todd Hoare: to penetrate a market looks like and can they do 186 00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:42,630 Todd Hoare: it? We really need to unpack that quite closely. 187 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,419 Sean Aylmer: And then broadly, I mean, I was going to ask 188 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:46,799 Sean Aylmer: you about the banks, but you sort of answered that. 189 00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:48,988 Sean Aylmer: And even ANZ at one point was certainly trying to 190 00:10:48,990 --> 00:10:51,870 Sean Aylmer: become a far more global bank and pulled back its 191 00:10:51,870 --> 00:10:56,099 Sean Aylmer: ambitions. So wrapping up the discussion. In a sense it 192 00:10:56,099 --> 00:11:00,690 Sean Aylmer: depends on the product, be it commodities versus banking versus 193 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:04,468 Sean Aylmer: pizza, and obviously where they're going into, and then the 194 00:11:04,469 --> 00:11:07,500 Sean Aylmer: competitor set plus history. I mean, you're wrapping all that 195 00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:09,000 Sean Aylmer: together, you're going to end up with some companies who 196 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,400 Sean Aylmer: are really good at it and others who should stay away. 197 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,840 Todd Hoare: Unfortunately, you are. And just being able to appreciate that 198 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:19,738 Todd Hoare: there are certain competitors in certain environments that no one 199 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:22,829 Todd Hoare: wants to come up against, whether they're Australian or someone 200 00:11:22,830 --> 00:11:26,910 Todd Hoare: else. So operating against a Google or a Microsoft, no 201 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:30,150 Todd Hoare: one wants to be playing in their backyard. The other 202 00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:32,670 Todd Hoare: thing I would note is that this notion of just 203 00:11:32,670 --> 00:11:37,259 Todd Hoare: risking small amounts of capital and doing it slowly, REA 204 00:11:37,259 --> 00:11:40,889 Todd Hoare: being the classic point. They've been in India since 2017, 205 00:11:40,889 --> 00:11:44,608 Todd Hoare: but took I think a 10 to 15% stake and kept their 206 00:11:44,610 --> 00:11:50,160 Todd Hoare: incumbent CEO. They did exactly, well, not exactly but the 207 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,909 Todd Hoare: model that they adopted, Wesfarmers and Bunnings similarly adopted in 208 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:56,939 Todd Hoare: the UK. But there's just a couple of subtle differences 209 00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:59,940 Todd Hoare: in the way that they've done it. Their willingness to 210 00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:05,580 Todd Hoare: go slowly versus quickly. Every company can potentially do it, 211 00:12:06,090 --> 00:12:08,040 Todd Hoare: but it's very, very easy to get it wrong. And 212 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,110 Todd Hoare: when you get it wrong, unfortunately, as we've seen with 213 00:12:10,110 --> 00:12:15,060 Todd Hoare: Lendlease, you fail spectacularly, but you win very, very gradually. 214 00:12:15,540 --> 00:12:17,280 Sean Aylmer: Todd, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 215 00:12:17,609 --> 00:12:18,540 Todd Hoare: Thank you, Sean. Pleasure. 216 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,540 Sean Aylmer: That was Todd Hoare, head of public markets at LGT 217 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:24,718 Sean Aylmer: Crestone. This is the Fear and Greed business interview. Remember, 218 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,270 Sean Aylmer: this is general information only, and you should always seek 219 00:12:27,270 --> 00:12:30,838 Sean Aylmer: professional advice before making investment decisions. Join us every morning 220 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,849 Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, daily business 221 00:12:32,849 --> 00:12:35,460 Sean Aylmer: news for people who make their own decisions. I'm Sean 222 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:36,569 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Enjoy your day.