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Speaker 1: Ap Poche Production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host.

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand is an old saying the truth is still

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Speaker 2: the truth, even if no one believes it.

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Speaker 3: A full scale search in the airs rock Ereer today

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Speaker 3: failed to find any trace of a nine week old

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Speaker 3: baby girl believed to have been taken by a dingo

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Speaker 3: or wild dog last night.

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Speaker 2: A lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it.

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Speaker 2: Does the truth even matter? Is it only about what

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Speaker 2: you can prove or deny?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not a crook.

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Speaker 3: I've earned everything I've got.

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Speaker 2: Most police dedicate themselves to finding the truth. My guest today,

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Speaker 2: Steve van Apron, is the exact opposite.

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Speaker 4: My name is Steve van Aprin and I'm an next cop.

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Speaker 4: I'm referred to as a human light detector.

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Speaker 2: He's made a career out of finding deception and lies.

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Speaker 2: After a fifteen year career in South Australia and Victoria Police,

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Speaker 2: became Australia's leading polygraph operator and diviner of truth. Is

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Speaker 2: also known as the human light Detector. He joins me now,

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Speaker 2: welcome Steve.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Adam.

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Speaker 2: Great to be here, indeed now had the pleasure of

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Speaker 2: working with you on seven networks top rating the hunters,

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Speaker 2: and we spent a lot of time in vehicles together.

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Speaker 2: I know you were quite afraid when I was driving.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to that. But I was also amazed with

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Speaker 2: your business, Australian Polygraph Services. Your phone ran constantly. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't just police and so forth, but ordinary people trying

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Speaker 2: to find out deception in their own lives.

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Speaker 1: Amazing range of work.

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Speaker 2: You do.

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Speaker 4: Everything from allegations of child sexual abuse to crazy stories

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Speaker 4: of people wanting their partners tested for whatever reason. So

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Speaker 4: a lot of accusations where there's no cooperative evidence, thefts,

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Speaker 4: frauds and so on. So yeah, some interesting cases.

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Speaker 2: Because poligraph is still not admissible in the court of law,

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Speaker 2: but I think in the public's imagination it's very effective

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Speaker 2: at weeding out lies. I mean there was one year

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Speaker 2: told me where someone rang and said one of their

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Speaker 2: clients thought they were God.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting.

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Speaker 4: Gentlemen come in and I have a form and one

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Speaker 4: of the questions is occupation, And to be honest, I

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Speaker 4: didn't actually see him write it down. And I was

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Speaker 4: asking questions, very impeccably dressed, well spoken, and I said,

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Speaker 4: what's the problem, why.

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Speaker 1: Are we here?

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Speaker 4: And just as he started talking, I looked down and

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Speaker 4: he had occupation as God, and I looked. I said,

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Speaker 4: I noticed you put your occupation is God. And he said, well, no, look, Steve,

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Speaker 4: I'm the real deal. So I said, what is you

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Speaker 4: want to Well, no one believes I'm God. And I said, well, look,

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Speaker 4: I can't really test you because if you really think

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Speaker 4: your God, you'll probably pass that test. So I said,

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Speaker 4: let's speak to your psychiatrist. And he said, no problems.

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Speaker 4: So I spoke to his psychiatrist and his psychiatrist. But

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Speaker 4: it was a good idea. I didn't think it was

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Speaker 4: a good idea at all, so I politely declined.

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Speaker 1: Why would it be a good idea?

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Speaker 4: Well, according to his psychiatrist, she believed that the mental

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Speaker 4: health system had let him down. I don't know how

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Speaker 4: I could have helped in that set of circumstances, but

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Speaker 4: I think obviously he was delusional. That's my professional diagnosis.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't know why. But I just didn't

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Speaker 4: think it would be a worthwhile process.

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Speaker 2: So you've effectively thwarted the second coming of God, if

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Speaker 2: not Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what can I say?

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Speaker 2: You've also worked with Victoria Police and other police forces,

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Speaker 2: not just here but around the country. And you have

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Speaker 2: worked on numerous homicide cases. How is polygraph used within

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Speaker 2: homicide cases these days?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So usually I'm approached by cold case units where

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Speaker 4: they've basically chased every avenue and there's no other forensic, scientific, medical,

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Speaker 4: or cooperative evidence. So they'll say, look, we just need

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Speaker 4: to know whether not this person may or may not

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Speaker 4: be involved, or they may want to test the veracity

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Speaker 4: of an informant. And sometimes what I'll also do is

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Speaker 4: just analyze records of anyview to determine whether or not

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Speaker 4: they may be withholding information. See, people, when people lie,

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Speaker 4: they often will edit the information they supply you with,

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Speaker 4: so you know they may be evasive, missive, dismissive, sidestep

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Speaker 4: the issue, don't answer the question. So it's twofold. One

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Speaker 4: is to look and evaluate records of innyview and the

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Speaker 4: other is to do my own pre test interview together

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Speaker 4: with polygraph. But as you said, it's not admissible in

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Speaker 4: court because at the end of the day, our legal

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Speaker 4: system is predicated on the basis will be judged by

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Speaker 4: our peers jurists, and that's why we have different areas

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Speaker 4: of forensic science. Biological trace evidence, DNA, blood, gunshot residue,

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Speaker 4: and so on. So it Penultimately it's a role of

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Speaker 4: juriy to determine Gilder instance, not a single polygraph. And

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Speaker 4: the other issue is I've seen some woeful tests out there.

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Speaker 4: I saw one a little while ago. The question was

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Speaker 4: did you rape and murder Julie so and so. Now

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Speaker 4: the problem with that is he could have raped but

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Speaker 4: not murdered, or murdered and not raped. What part of

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Speaker 4: the question is he passing or failing? So the questions

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Speaker 4: have to be very clear and concise, so there's no

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Speaker 4: room for misinterpretation or ambiguity.

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Speaker 2: So how do you approach you've got a murder suspect

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Speaker 2: and you're trying to help the police establish their guilt

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Speaker 2: or innocence or whether they're lying.

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Speaker 1: How do you approach it?

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Speaker 4: So typically what will happen is they'll brief me as

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Speaker 4: to all the facts or the evidence or a summary

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Speaker 4: of what they've got. Then I'll ask what do you

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Speaker 4: want to know? So usually the question formulation is quite

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Speaker 4: is without it out the most important part of the process.

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Speaker 4: So let's say the forensic pathologist says the cause of

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Speaker 4: death is single gunshot wound to the back of their head.

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Speaker 4: That's pretty straightforward. Did you shoot whoever it is. But

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Speaker 4: if say they've got a body in a dam and

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Speaker 4: they can't establish the cause of death, well then the

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Speaker 4: question may have to be altered. I remember I worked

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Speaker 4: on one case. They found a body in a damn

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Speaker 4: and they said, Steve, can you ask this person whether

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Speaker 4: or not he strangled the victim. I said, well, that's

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Speaker 4: a bad question, and they said, why, surely nobody strangled.

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Speaker 4: I said, what if he held him under water and

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Speaker 4: he drowned, Well, technically he could minimize, justify, or sort

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Speaker 4: of evalude himself out of the question. So when I

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Speaker 4: construct the questions, there has been absolutely no room for

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Speaker 4: a deceptive person to riggle out of.

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Speaker 1: And you also.

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Speaker 2: Establish a control by asking them questions every day questions,

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Speaker 2: but also other questions about deception that aren't related to

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Speaker 2: the case you're talking.

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Speaker 4: About, now, that's right. So they're called control or comparison questions.

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Speaker 4: So they're used to diagnostically measure that the reactions are gain.

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Speaker 4: So the theory is a truthful person who's not involved

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Speaker 4: in the homicide will respond to the most threatening question

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Speaker 4: to them in this case, it would be the control

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Speaker 4: or comparison question, whereas the deceptive person is going to

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Speaker 4: head out or react to the most threatening question of

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Speaker 4: them and if they're involved in some way, shape or

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Speaker 4: form what we call the relevant question. But this is

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Speaker 4: why I like I Detect better because what happens is,

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Speaker 4: you know, sometimes you may get somebody in and they're pretyt,

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Speaker 4: they're pretty nervous, could be a truthful person. So with

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Speaker 4: I Detect, the system uses an infrared eye scanner to

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Speaker 4: measure ocular responses and changes. But the advantage is that

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Speaker 4: it gets people to light to certain question. So what

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Speaker 4: does Adam Shan look like when he's lying? So it

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Speaker 4: all gets you to lie. It stores that data. Then

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Speaker 4: later on it uses AI and machine learning and algorithms

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Speaker 4: comparative algorithms to look for similarities or a differential between

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Speaker 4: the questions that are asked and what we call director

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Speaker 4: light controls. So the advantage of that is scored by algorithms,

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Speaker 4: not a person, so there's no bias, there's no prejudice.

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Speaker 4: And secondly, it relies more on what you look like

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Speaker 4: when you're lying, is whereas a polygraph, sometimes somebody can

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Speaker 4: be nervous and we get elevated cardio responses. So I

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Speaker 4: think combining the two is a better way. And now

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Speaker 4: we've got verified So the technology is evolving.

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Speaker 2: I've seen that technology working on our show The Hunters

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Speaker 2: Channel seven. You can find those episodes on seven plus,

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Speaker 2: in particular the murder of Roger Wilson and a solicitor

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Speaker 2: back in the eighties, and we had the Mark Anthony

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Speaker 2: Clarkson who was acquitted of being the paymaster and organizing

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Speaker 2: the murder of Wilson by Christopher Dale Flannery renter Kill

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Speaker 2: and Clarkson was acquitted, but he's always felt that he

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Speaker 2: never got the benefit of that acquittal. There was a

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Speaker 2: technicality I guess well more than that, where one of

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Speaker 2: the main witnesses disappeared, so the case the Crown brought

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Speaker 2: fell apart. So he felt he wanted to come in

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Speaker 2: and really prove his innocence. I thought it was a

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Speaker 2: tremendous risk.

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Speaker 4: It was a huge risk. I really could have backfight.

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Speaker 4: But I guess, you know, actions speke later than words.

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Speaker 4: Usually no one likes to be falsely or maliciously accused.

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Speaker 4: So the fact that he showed up I have the

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Speaker 4: highest cancelation rate in Australia without a doubt. The fact

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Speaker 4: that he participated, he followed instructions, he was compliant, tells

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Speaker 4: me that he wanted to do the test. Look, I

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Speaker 4: get a lot of allegations of child sexual abuse and

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Speaker 4: people say yeah, I'll do the test, and saying you'll

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Speaker 4: do it and setting in my office and doing it

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Speaker 4: two different things. But you know, look, the polygraph it's

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Speaker 4: only a very small part of the process. So usually

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Speaker 4: I will use behavioral analysis interviewing techniques that I learned

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Speaker 4: with the FBI to analyze, you know, whether or not

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Speaker 4: I think there's any problems there. And I'd say probably

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Speaker 4: about ninety four ninety five percent of the time I

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Speaker 4: can tell whether somebody's going to pass by the way

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Speaker 4: they answer the behavior analysis questions and in advance and what

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Speaker 4: are those questions. Well, let's say you've got a theft.

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Speaker 4: The FBI will teach you call it adaptive interviewing. They'll say,

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Speaker 4: what do you think should happen to the person who

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Speaker 4: stole this money? Now, a truthful person who's not involved

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Speaker 4: in all probability have nothing to lose when they voice

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Speaker 4: their opinion. You know, maybe they should lose their job

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Speaker 4: or the police should be contacted or whatever. So if

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Speaker 4: you ask that question of the person who may be involved,

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Speaker 4: well there's a number of things. Firstly, they're likely not

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Speaker 4: to be as harsh on themselves, so they're likely to oh, well,

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Speaker 4: maybe it was a mistake, or maybe they didn't mean

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Speaker 4: for it to happen, I mean, or something like that.

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Speaker 4: So it's a justification or rationalization. Whereas another great one

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Speaker 4: is let's say you've got a crime scene and you've

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Speaker 4: got a body there, and the suspect denies ever being there.

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Speaker 4: I'd say, Tommy, Adam, have you been in that room before?

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Speaker 1: No? No, I haven't you sure about that? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: And then I'd say, well, is there any reason why

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Speaker 4: we would find your fingerprints at the scene?

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Speaker 1: Now think about it.

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Speaker 4: A truthful person knows they've never been in that room,

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Speaker 4: so they'd be quite adamant that you're not going to

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Speaker 4: find my fingerprints there. Basically I wasn't there. Whereas a

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Speaker 4: deceptive person will think, oh, do they have my fingerprints?

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Speaker 4: And often the question becomes the threatening stimulus. I was

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Speaker 4: training some profilers in Dubai and they said, Steve, we

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Speaker 4: want you to assemble questions that we think our profilers

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Speaker 4: could use when people get off the planes or on

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Speaker 4: the planes. So one of the questions I come up with,

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Speaker 4: and it's quite funny, was do you have any associations

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Speaker 4: with any terrorist networks or groups? And they looked at

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Speaker 4: me dumbfounded, and they said, Steve, why on earth would

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Speaker 4: a terrorist admit that? I said, It's got nothing to

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Speaker 4: do with the question, but everything to do with it

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Speaker 4: response to the question. How they react? Does the question

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Speaker 4: make them feel uncomfortable? But often truthful people will take

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Speaker 4: ownership and they'll answer.

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Speaker 1: To the questions.

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Speaker 4: In fact, I expect certain respons like shock or laughter

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Speaker 4: or whatever. But if they're objecting, as opposed to denying,

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Speaker 4: that's a red flag for me. So I don't care

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Speaker 4: how well prepared someone is. They cannot possibly pre anticipate

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Speaker 4: every question that I'm likely to ask you. If I'm

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Speaker 4: interviewing you for a homicide, we know the homicide or

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Speaker 4: the pathologists has established a time of death seven fifteen

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Speaker 4: pm last night. I'm going to ask where were you

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Speaker 4: between one o'clock and twelve pm? And you might say,

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Speaker 4: went out? Where did you go to a restaurant? What

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Speaker 4: was the name of the restaurant, What time did you leave,

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Speaker 4: How did you get there? Who did you go there with?

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Speaker 4: Have you been there before? A very valid question because

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Speaker 4: a truthful person can recall past events, so they can

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Speaker 4: use previous memories. But then I might ask you know,

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Speaker 4: what did you order, what was on the menu, how

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Speaker 4: did you pay? Describe the layout of the place if

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Speaker 4: they had never been there before, who served you?

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Speaker 1: What time did you leave? Which route did you leave?

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Speaker 4: That takes a lot of cognitive processing, and I truthful people,

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Speaker 4: unless they have acquired brain injury or some cognitive issues,

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Speaker 4: can usually relate things because they've lived through them. They'll

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Speaker 4: tell you how they felt, what they did, what they saw,

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Speaker 4: conversations that took place. Why, Because they're just recalling historical events,

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Speaker 4: whereas a deceptive person has to create them and make

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Speaker 4: them up. But they also have to think, what have

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Speaker 4: I said previously? It's likely to contradict me.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 4: It's a lot of neurological processing, and we know under

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Speaker 4: MRI scanning, our prefrontal cortex lights up like a Christmas tree,

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Speaker 4: so it takes a lot of processing.

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Speaker 2: People have often described the light detector as a fear

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Speaker 2: detector that it may also be very useful police who

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Speaker 2: are interviewing suspects for murders, in particular, whereby the polygraph

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Speaker 2: can actually put them under pressure, and if they fail

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Speaker 2: the test, they might even ended up confessing after that

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Speaker 2: because they think the game's up, even though it's not admissible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I've seen it.

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Speaker 4: I spent time with LAPD polygraph Unit, which falls within

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Speaker 4: their Scientific Investigation Division, and one of the things that

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Speaker 4: I saw regularly people walk into that room and a

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Speaker 4: detective will say, look, before we start, is there anything

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Speaker 4: in the back of your mind that you think may

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Speaker 4: influence the outcome of this test? Because if there is,

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Speaker 4: now is a time to tell me. And it's amazing

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Speaker 4: and you look, some police departments in the States do

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Speaker 4: use it as a psychological tool in the absence of

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Speaker 4: any other types of forensic evidence. So yeah, that's where

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Speaker 4: the fear side of things come from. But having said

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Speaker 4: that too, I mean, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: it's the role of an investigator to look at.

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Speaker 1: All the evidence.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things I remember this really clearly,

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Speaker 4: the oc of the polygraph unit used to be really

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Speaker 4: annoyed when Roberie homicide detectives would bring twenty suspects and

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Speaker 4: he would say bring me your top three suspects, because

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Speaker 4: what happened was detectives got lazy and they brought them

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Speaker 4: in there and just wanted to do it the screening process,

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Speaker 4: so they had very strict criteria for when they would

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Speaker 4: do a test.

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Speaker 2: You've had a great partnership with Victoria's HOMS, so it's

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Speaker 2: squad in particular form of Senior Sergeant Ron Iddle's and

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Speaker 2: I think Ron really understood the theater of an interview

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Speaker 2: and how to bring people around to a confession. And

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Speaker 2: he often brought you in, I think on dozens of

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Speaker 2: homicides that you worked on with him.

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Speaker 4: Now, yeah, so Ron and I shared the same training.

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Speaker 4: He went to RCMP. I did my training at John E.

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Speaker 4: Readan Associates in San Diego. And firstly, what we have

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Speaker 4: to understand is the American legal system is very different

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Speaker 4: from the rules of evidence here in Australia. So in America,

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Speaker 4: I can use trickery, deception, or deceit to obtain a confession.

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Speaker 4: So I can say, you know what, Adam, I found

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Speaker 4: your fingerprints at the seat.

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Speaker 1: You go, Okay, I was there, Kelly.

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Speaker 4: Now, that would not even pass a voir dea hearing

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Speaker 4: here in Australia based on the fact as I lied

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Speaker 4: to you and I coerced you into a confessing So

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Speaker 4: the RCMP sisters.

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Speaker 2: The Royal Canadian Maunted Police YEP.

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Speaker 4: Is based on the same common Wealth process of law

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Speaker 4: as here in Australia. So I think a bit of system.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, Ron was very big on behavior interviewing, but

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Speaker 4: not just that. It was about building rapport because research shows,

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Speaker 4: and the FBI has done research on this, they say,

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Speaker 4: if you accuse somebody for their behavior, you make it

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Speaker 4: substantially more difficult for them to confess. So they use

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Speaker 4: a psychologically justifiable reason. So I can't say, Adam, it's

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Speaker 4: okay that you shot the victim five times in the head,

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Speaker 4: because there's not I'd say something like these, Sometimes things happen.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you were provoked, maybe you didn't mean for this

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Speaker 4: to happen, Maybe it was an accident, maybe you acted out.

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Speaker 4: But there's always reasons for your behavior. Let's talk about that.

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Speaker 4: What is it that could have happened? Now, A truthful

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Speaker 4: person will ninety nine point nine nine ninety percent of

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Speaker 4: the time saying I'm not involved, I don't know what

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Speaker 4: you're talking about. I am I underrest ca and I

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Speaker 4: go blah blah blah. Whereas a deceptive person who has

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Speaker 4: been involved, it's like being off at an olive branch.

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Speaker 4: So it's a psychologically justifiable reason for their behavior. And

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Speaker 4: I've used it many times and it is amazing what

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Speaker 4: sort of admisis and confessions come through.

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Speaker 2: Because ron Ittle's was a big rapport man on the job.

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Speaker 2: He'd pushed the table out of the way, sit with

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Speaker 2: the suspect, and he would give them all kinds of

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Speaker 2: opportunities to unburthen themselves, and the polygraph was one of them.

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Speaker 2: What was the sort of stick he would use with

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Speaker 2: suspects and the polygraph?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So what he would do is, and I agree

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Speaker 4: with this, it's how you put it to people.

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Speaker 1: Because if I say I.

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Speaker 4: Think you're involved in this murder, if you don't do this,

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Speaker 4: this is going to happen, that's going to happen. Well,

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Speaker 4: you make it substantially more difficult for a person to confess.

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Speaker 4: So his approach was, look, let's do a test. If

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Speaker 4: you pass well, off you back, but if you fart,

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Speaker 4: we can't use it anyway. And this is a great

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Speaker 4: way to clear your name once and for all. And

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Speaker 4: see Let's not forget a lot of the times you

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Speaker 4: may be interviewing somebody who may be a witness and

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Speaker 4: then all of a sudden may bring things up that

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Speaker 4: make them a potential suspect or vice versa. So it's

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Speaker 4: how people respond to questions. And RCMP had a very

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Speaker 4: good reputation for me have analysis, interviewing and training because.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I think works in your favor

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Speaker 2: and in this tactic is that people trust the polygraph

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Speaker 2: yes or no. Well, I think generally speaking, I think

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Speaker 2: people accept now that there's a eighty ninety percent accuracy

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Speaker 2: rate that's established over a long period of me only one

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Speaker 2: hundred years it's been used. So I think the power

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Speaker 2: of a failure or a success on the test can

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Speaker 2: influence what people then say to detectives investigating.

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Speaker 1: Oh very much.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 4: I remember many years ago when I did my training,

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Speaker 4: I did some training at the FBI Field office in

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Speaker 4: LA and they were contacted by w Police in relation

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Speaker 4: to the Clemont Cerial Keller of investigation. And because I

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Speaker 4: knew the officer in charge there, he said, look you Steve,

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Speaker 4: because they what was happening was they were looking for

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Speaker 4: an examiner to go and do it, and a guy

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Speaker 4: by the name of Ron Hilly, No, my mistake, it

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Speaker 4: was wrong. I can't think of his sur no now,

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Speaker 4: but there's another wrong and he went there and helped them. Now,

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Speaker 4: one of the things is people were confessing to other crimes,

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Speaker 4: but they use it as a prompt. So if somebody fails,

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Speaker 4: then they'll say, look, you failed, help me try to

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Speaker 4: understand why you may have failed, because obviously there's something

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Speaker 4: in there that really concerned you. And then especially LAPD

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Speaker 4: a lot of American police forces, they'll then use that

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Speaker 4: as part of the next step of theme development to

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Speaker 4: elicit further information.

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Speaker 2: False confessions are a huge issue, particular in America, where

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Speaker 2: people are battered over hours and hours of interviewing and

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Speaker 2: they end up they confess to everything. And we've had

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Speaker 2: this scenario here in Victoria a couple of times during

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Speaker 2: the Gang War in particular, where informers came in and

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Speaker 2: started to tell all kinds of stories for their own benefit.

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Speaker 2: How easy is it for you to identify a false confessor?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's really interesting because you've got to

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Speaker 4: look at the process that they go through, and you

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Speaker 4: nailed it. A lot of the times they'll be in

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Speaker 4: there for hours and hours and hours and beat them down.

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Speaker 4: And we've seen making a murder was a great example

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Speaker 4: of it, where it got to a stage where they

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Speaker 4: just constantly at them and sometimes it's unrelenting. And that's okay,

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Speaker 4: I did it. What's important for me is I don't

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Speaker 4: want to convict somebody. I don't want to have the

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Speaker 4: courts convict somebody who's innocent. To me, that goes against

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Speaker 4: the grain of why you've sworn in as a police officer.

397
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Speaker 4: So if I get it, let's say it's a false confession,

398
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Speaker 4: I then want to cooperate that. So if he says, yeah,

399
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Speaker 4: look I went there and then I went here, well,

400
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Speaker 4: I mean, now you know you'd be getting toll records

401
00:19:32,281 --> 00:19:36,001
Speaker 4: from toll gantries to confirm whether or not they were

402
00:19:36,041 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 4: in that location, or ping their phones or speak to

403
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Speaker 4: witnesses and that because, I mean, no one benefits from

404
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Speaker 4: a false confession.

405
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Speaker 1: No one.

406
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. How many murderers have you set in

407
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Speaker 2: front of and tested?

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Speaker 4: Well, when you say murderers, I worked on eighty nine

409
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Speaker 4: homeside cases and I'd say probably around about at least

410
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Speaker 4: sixty percent of those had failed.

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Speaker 2: Right, And when you have someone who fails, are they

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Speaker 2: also giving you body language cues that get you thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: this guy's knock going to pass the test ory might.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, I look for a number of things.

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Speaker 4: Firstly, I will often get somebody to tell me, give

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Speaker 4: me a narrative of what happened. The first thing I'll say,

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Speaker 4: Now that I'm out of the place, I'll say, look,

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Speaker 4: I'm not on your side, I'm not on the police's side,

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Speaker 4: but what I do need to know in your own words,

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Speaker 4: what happened now. The reason I do that is because

421
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Speaker 4: a people are going to tell you what they want

422
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Speaker 4: you to know. So usually there'll be more content and

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Speaker 4: information on when somebody's relaying historical events to the truthful. So, yeah,

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Speaker 4: a lot of the times I see conflict or contradiction

425
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Speaker 4: between what they're saying their body language is expressing. Micro

426
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Speaker 4: expressions are a good one. Usually I look to see

427
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Speaker 4: if the emotions are in the right place, but also

428
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Speaker 4: are they including themselves in the narrative or excluding themselves

429
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Speaker 4: in the narrative. Usually they might say things like walk

430
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Speaker 4: down the street, but they may not say is I

431
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Speaker 4: walk down the street, or may not identify who they

432
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Speaker 4: walk down so when language is evasive, I'll go in

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Speaker 4: and ask for clarity.

434
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:04,441
Speaker 1: I don't care.

435
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,561
Speaker 4: Like I said, I mean, you can be prepared, but

436
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 4: sooner or later, if you're lying, your story is going

437
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,041
Speaker 4: to come unstuck.

438
00:21:09,681 --> 00:21:14,801
Speaker 2: And also you're very strict about people moving, breathing too heavily,

439
00:21:15,001 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: all kinds of things, and you actually give them three strikes,

440
00:21:16,961 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 2: then you can then you to stop the whole test.

441
00:21:19,241 --> 00:21:21,521
Speaker 4: Yeah, when I do a test, the first thing I'll

442
00:21:21,521 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 4: do is I'll have all the senses attached. They won't

443
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 4: know this, but I'll be watching the cardiocycles and whatnot,

444
00:21:27,441 --> 00:21:29,561
Speaker 4: in particular the breathing, because you can control your breathing

445
00:21:29,561 --> 00:21:31,721
Speaker 4: and you can hold your breath or whatever. Now, of course,

446
00:21:31,721 --> 00:21:33,801
Speaker 4: if you take a deep breath, what happens Your heart

447
00:21:33,801 --> 00:21:36,481
Speaker 4: has to work that much harder to circulate the oxyhemoglobin

448
00:21:36,561 --> 00:21:39,321
Speaker 4: any blood. So then we see increased breath, but we

449
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,921
Speaker 4: see change in heart rate. Now I know that that's

450
00:21:42,001 --> 00:21:44,481
Speaker 4: not necessarily because the person's lie. That's because they took

451
00:21:44,481 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 4: a deep breath. I think over the years, I've probably

452
00:21:46,721 --> 00:21:51,001
Speaker 4: downloaded twenty twenty five thousand dollars worth of information on

453
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 4: how to beat a polygraph and a lot of it's rubbish.

454
00:21:54,481 --> 00:21:57,801
Speaker 4: But it's interesting because in the States, most law enforcement

455
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,160
Speaker 4: bodies these days you have to undergo a polygraph or

456
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 4: I detect tests before you get in. So there's a

457
00:22:03,321 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 4: lot of websites who are of a teering and how

458
00:22:06,281 --> 00:22:08,401
Speaker 4: to beat a polygraph. Now, I mean, you don't want

459
00:22:08,481 --> 00:22:11,681
Speaker 4: somebody who enters a county sheriff or a police department

460
00:22:11,761 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 4: and you know the big methamphetamine addicts or something like that.

461
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:18,281
Speaker 4: I remember when I was at LAPD, they had one guy.

462
00:22:18,321 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 4: He passed his physicals, he passed all the medical exams,

463
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,481
Speaker 4: he passed the entry blah blah bah, and then even

464
00:22:25,521 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 4: passed the site test and the last part of the

465
00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 4: process was to do a polygraph and one of the

466
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 4: questions in the last five years, have you used any

467
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 4: legal drugs? And the guy failed and admitted that he

468
00:22:36,801 --> 00:22:39,561
Speaker 4: used crack cocaine on no less than three hundred occasions.

469
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,041
Speaker 4: So that's not someone you want in the property office.

470
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: Yes, pathological liars believe they can fool anybody. Can they

471
00:22:47,321 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 2: fool the polygraph and the eye detect as well?

472
00:22:50,241 --> 00:22:53,001
Speaker 4: It was an interesting question. There was a study done

473
00:22:53,481 --> 00:22:57,001
Speaker 4: in the States, and admittedly a small control but they

474
00:22:57,001 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 4: had twelve clinically diagnosed psychopaths. Now, I think psychopathy is

475
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,001
Speaker 4: one of the most misunderstood words in the English language.

476
00:23:04,001 --> 00:23:05,641
Speaker 4: So a lot of people think, so chopaths go out

477
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 4: and kill people. Well, I guarantee you you've worked with

478
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,441
Speaker 4: people in your past that have psychopathic behavior, so they

479
00:23:10,441 --> 00:23:12,001
Speaker 4: have little empathy or remorse.

480
00:23:12,281 --> 00:23:14,201
Speaker 2: So if you and I but recently, actually I'd say

481
00:23:14,521 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 2: let's not go there.

482
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 4: So to give an example, you and I applied for

483
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:20,441
Speaker 4: a job and I'm a psychopath. I'll destroy you, I'll

484
00:23:20,441 --> 00:23:24,321
Speaker 4: do everything it takes, but I will win and there's

485
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:27,201
Speaker 4: no doubt. So there's no compunction, there's no empathy, there's

486
00:23:27,201 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 4: no remorse. So what's interesting was with this group and

487
00:23:30,801 --> 00:23:35,721
Speaker 4: now these twelve clinically diagnosed psychopaths were within the prison population.

488
00:23:35,961 --> 00:23:38,481
Speaker 4: They said, listen, we're going to do an experiment, a

489
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 4: mock crime, and we're going to get you involved. Then

490
00:23:41,921 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 4: you're going to do a polygraph test and we want

491
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,561
Speaker 4: you to deny it. Now, what was really interesting, if

492
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,121
Speaker 4: you or I do something and we're interviewed by the police,

493
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 4: we may have feelings of guilt about doing what we did.

494
00:23:52,801 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 4: Whereas the theory was psychopaths do not, but they're more

495
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,801
Speaker 4: concerned about being apprehended for their crime rather than having

496
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 4: any empathy or remorse for their victims. And not one

497
00:24:03,041 --> 00:24:05,321
Speaker 4: of those twelve could actually beat the test. And they

498
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 4: even to even make it even more lifelike, they said,

499
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,041
Speaker 4: we'll give you I think it was twenty five dollars. Now,

500
00:24:12,441 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 4: as you know, in the prison population, twenty five dollars

501
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,161
Speaker 4: a lot of money. Not one of them could beat

502
00:24:16,201 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 4: the test. So I found that really interesting. But look,

503
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,481
Speaker 4: you are going to get people who it's like a sociopath.

504
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 4: You know. I'm sure you've met people and they tell

505
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,441
Speaker 4: these lies, and the liars are unbelievable, but they maintain

506
00:24:29,521 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 4: that facade. And that's a certain percentage of the population

507
00:24:32,441 --> 00:24:34,761
Speaker 4: as well. But you can still believe it's a lie.

508
00:24:34,761 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, you still know

509
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,961
Speaker 4: the truth. So if you're involved in an armed robbery

510
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 4: and you're trying to convince yourself that you weren't involved

511
00:24:43,441 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 4: in that armory, you still know the truth.

512
00:24:45,441 --> 00:24:46,201
Speaker 1: Whether or not you.

513
00:24:46,281 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 4: Can convince yourself or not, that question becomes the threatening stimus.

514
00:24:50,201 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 4: I remember when I did my training, they got me

515
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,321
Speaker 4: to break into a car. Now, They said, there's cash

516
00:24:55,321 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 4: in the car, break into it, and then you're going

517
00:24:57,761 --> 00:25:00,801
Speaker 4: to do a polygraph test after that, and I want

518
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:01,961
Speaker 4: you to try.

519
00:25:01,761 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: To beat the test.

520
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 4: So I was tested by a guy called f at

521
00:25:05,241 --> 00:25:09,801
Speaker 4: Akam who was the often charge of Oregon State Police polygraph.

522
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: You know, so you knew his stuff.

523
00:25:11,201 --> 00:25:13,321
Speaker 4: So I'm there, all the senses are there, and I'm

524
00:25:13,321 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 4: thinking I'm going to beat this easy, no problem at all.

525
00:25:15,681 --> 00:25:18,241
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about, you know, being on the Gold Coast

526
00:25:18,281 --> 00:25:19,041
Speaker 4: and all sorts of stuff.

527
00:25:19,041 --> 00:25:20,241
Speaker 1: As soon as you asked the question.

528
00:25:20,481 --> 00:25:22,161
Speaker 4: When I was in the car, they hit the alarm

529
00:25:22,441 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 4: and I thought, oh, so I grabbed the cash. So

530
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,881
Speaker 4: they tried to make it as life like as possible.

531
00:25:27,801 --> 00:25:30,041
Speaker 4: But soon as they asked that question and there was

532
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,001
Speaker 4: no ramifications for me being caught in that light, I

533
00:25:33,041 --> 00:25:35,881
Speaker 4: still failed miserably. So you might be able to try

534
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,961
Speaker 4: to convince yourself. But the end of the day, you

535
00:25:38,041 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 4: still know ground zero. Do you know whether or not

536
00:25:40,961 --> 00:25:41,561
Speaker 4: you're lying or not.

537
00:25:43,041 --> 00:25:44,801
Speaker 2: Tell me some of the cases you've worked on. There

538
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,041
Speaker 2: must be some memorable moments from homicide cases and other

539
00:25:48,041 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: things you've done. You've got a few for me.

540
00:25:50,001 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, I remember the murder of Bonnie Clark was

541
00:25:54,321 --> 00:25:57,481
Speaker 4: one of those. I was contacted by the homicide squad

542
00:25:57,481 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 4: and they said, look, we've got a case. It's cold case,

543
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,961
Speaker 4: and we think Marion Weisshart, which is the mother, may

544
00:26:04,001 --> 00:26:07,001
Speaker 4: be involved in the murder. And I was briefed and

545
00:26:07,041 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 4: they said, look, it appeared that she was sexually assaulted.

546
00:26:09,921 --> 00:26:11,321
Speaker 4: And I said, well, what do you think it's the

547
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 4: mother and they said, well, we think she may have

548
00:26:13,201 --> 00:26:16,761
Speaker 4: sexually assaulted her daughter to throw us off the scent. Now,

549
00:26:16,801 --> 00:26:19,961
Speaker 4: statistically you probably know this yourself. It's rare from mother

550
00:26:20,001 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 4: to sexually abuse her offspring physically, mate sexually.

551
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: It's rare.

552
00:26:23,441 --> 00:26:25,801
Speaker 4: Anyway, before I even did the test. Oh the other

553
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,001
Speaker 4: thing too, she wasn't that cooperative with the police, so

554
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 4: they thought, well, what is she hiding? Why is she

555
00:26:31,281 --> 00:26:35,161
Speaker 4: behaving like this. Let's not forget she's lost her daughter

556
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,041
Speaker 4: in horrific circumstances, and now everyone's pointing the finger at her.

557
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 4: So anyway, she's talking and I'm thinking, wow, everything she said,

558
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 4: I couldn't find any fault with it.

559
00:26:46,281 --> 00:26:47,761
Speaker 1: And this is before we did the test.

560
00:26:48,441 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 4: And anyway, we did the test and she passed, and

561
00:26:52,481 --> 00:26:54,921
Speaker 4: I remember copying a bit of a ribbingness. Oh yeah,

562
00:26:55,241 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 4: we're not sure, all that sort of stuff, and I

563
00:26:57,441 --> 00:27:00,201
Speaker 4: think its About six months later, I got a phone

564
00:27:00,201 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 4: call from one of the bosses of the homesie squad

565
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,041
Speaker 4: and he said, we've just arrested previous border. Now there

566
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 4: was no signs of fourth entry into the house, no

567
00:27:09,321 --> 00:27:13,001
Speaker 4: broken windows. A key was used, and he sexually assaulted

568
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,801
Speaker 4: and stabbed her and.

569
00:27:14,801 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: She died as a result of her injuries.

570
00:27:16,681 --> 00:27:20,001
Speaker 4: So I can only imagine being falsely accused as a mother,

571
00:27:20,321 --> 00:27:23,961
Speaker 4: or having that ring of suspicion hovering above your head

572
00:27:24,321 --> 00:27:27,081
Speaker 4: would be hard for any parent, I mean, especially when

573
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:30,321
Speaker 4: you have tragically lost trial. So but you know, sometimes

574
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,281
Speaker 4: you can go to cases and you know, things point

575
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 4: in a certain direction.

576
00:27:34,001 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes, you know, I remember when I was

577
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:36,441
Speaker 1: on the job.

578
00:27:36,521 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 4: You can go to a crime scene and you can

579
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,561
Speaker 4: tell pretty quick smart whether or not you know, it's

580
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,761
Speaker 4: organized or disorganized. That's how the profile is basically working

581
00:27:44,801 --> 00:27:47,761
Speaker 4: out organized disorganized. You know, has the offender spent time

582
00:27:47,801 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 4: with the victim post mortem, has the body been moved,

583
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 4: has the crime scene been staged? All that type of thing.

584
00:27:52,241 --> 00:27:55,441
Speaker 4: But here's the thing. As investigators will go there we'll

585
00:27:55,441 --> 00:27:58,441
Speaker 4: formulate an opinion based on the evidence. We'll then try

586
00:27:58,441 --> 00:28:01,801
Speaker 4: to support that hypothesis with evidence. But what if our

587
00:28:02,001 --> 00:28:07,321
Speaker 4: hypothesis may be wrong. The beauty of what we have

588
00:28:07,441 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 4: these days is, you know, I remember years ago the

589
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 4: best you could do at a crime scene was blood grouping.

590
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,801
Speaker 4: Now we've got the ability of using DNA. We could

591
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,041
Speaker 4: get everyone in this building and everyone in this street

592
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:21,001
Speaker 4: to pin prick themselves and or put it in a

593
00:28:21,001 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 4: pool of blood, and DNA experts can extract individual DNA.

594
00:28:25,961 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 4: But also that in itself. I mean, you may have

595
00:28:28,281 --> 00:28:31,401
Speaker 4: DNA at a crime scene, but the issue is does

596
00:28:31,441 --> 00:28:33,601
Speaker 4: that DNA go to show the person may have killed

597
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,801
Speaker 4: the victim? So I mean, holistically, we need to look

598
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,441
Speaker 4: at all the available events.

599
00:28:39,721 --> 00:28:42,321
Speaker 2: So how much should we rely on the polygraph? I

600
00:28:42,361 --> 00:28:46,041
Speaker 2: mean it's in films, popular culture. We see the ink

601
00:28:46,121 --> 00:28:49,041
Speaker 2: on the page, we see the suspects sweating. How much

602
00:28:49,121 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: do you think we should rely on it? I know

603
00:28:50,561 --> 00:28:53,441
Speaker 2: that money your clients do now in their daily lives.

604
00:28:53,481 --> 00:28:55,721
Speaker 2: They're trying to use the polygraph to change outcomes in

605
00:28:55,761 --> 00:28:56,561
Speaker 2: their daily lives.

606
00:28:57,001 --> 00:29:00,001
Speaker 4: Look what I say to that is a polygraph is

607
00:29:00,121 --> 00:29:03,921
Speaker 4: just another tool in the arsenal of investigative techniques. You

608
00:29:03,921 --> 00:29:08,481
Speaker 4: can use the panacee for every investigation. But let's not forget.

609
00:29:08,561 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 4: Often when people come to me, they've been accused and

610
00:29:11,281 --> 00:29:13,921
Speaker 4: there's just he said, she said, there's no other cooperative evidence,

611
00:29:13,921 --> 00:29:16,881
Speaker 4: scientific or medical, forensic, whatever it may be. So, like

612
00:29:16,881 --> 00:29:19,081
Speaker 4: I said, it's not a panacea to every investigation, but

613
00:29:19,201 --> 00:29:22,281
Speaker 4: it can help investigate his focus their resources. I mean,

614
00:29:22,521 --> 00:29:25,321
Speaker 4: if an informant comes up and says John Smith is

615
00:29:25,361 --> 00:29:27,281
Speaker 4: a person who you should be looking for, I look

616
00:29:27,281 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 4: at motive. Is John Smith his opposition drug dealer and

617
00:29:31,521 --> 00:29:34,401
Speaker 4: he wants to put him out of action? So always

618
00:29:34,401 --> 00:29:36,121
Speaker 4: we have to question motive. We have to look at

619
00:29:36,161 --> 00:29:38,361
Speaker 4: the evidence and not just rely on one piece of

620
00:29:38,361 --> 00:29:42,361
Speaker 4: evidence because often you might have alibi evidence. And as

621
00:29:42,401 --> 00:29:44,081
Speaker 4: we know in some of the cases we worked on

622
00:29:44,121 --> 00:29:47,841
Speaker 4: in the Hunters, people will protect other people. That's how

623
00:29:47,881 --> 00:29:49,041
Speaker 4: it works, that's life.

624
00:29:49,281 --> 00:29:50,921
Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned a case that we looked at, the

625
00:29:50,921 --> 00:29:55,321
Speaker 2: Beaumonts in South Australia. The leading suspect now is Harry Phipps,

626
00:29:55,321 --> 00:29:57,801
Speaker 2: who lived quite close to Glenell Beach nineteen sixty six

627
00:29:58,281 --> 00:30:01,801
Speaker 2: and one of the key planks of that suspicion was

628
00:30:02,241 --> 00:30:06,401
Speaker 2: a testimony given by his son, Hayden to another investigator,

629
00:30:06,441 --> 00:30:09,321
Speaker 2: you know, and you were asked to analyze that, and

630
00:30:10,001 --> 00:30:12,801
Speaker 2: you didn't have him to put them put the polygraph on,

631
00:30:12,841 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: and you had to rely on the questions that were asked.

632
00:30:15,441 --> 00:30:17,001
Speaker 2: But you looked at that and you felt that he

633
00:30:17,161 --> 00:30:19,361
Speaker 2: was being truthful, that his father had in fact taken

634
00:30:19,401 --> 00:30:22,841
Speaker 2: those kids off Jane Grant Nana, off the beach there

635
00:30:23,041 --> 00:30:25,841
Speaker 2: and had murdered them. He'd actually, Hayden Phipps claimed he'd

636
00:30:25,961 --> 00:30:28,401
Speaker 2: seen them in their house near Gleneld Beach.

637
00:30:28,681 --> 00:30:30,601
Speaker 4: Now, I know you and I may differ on this point,

638
00:30:30,601 --> 00:30:34,161
Speaker 4: but one of the things I look for is firstly,

639
00:30:34,801 --> 00:30:38,201
Speaker 4: are they under the influencer drugs or that tope of thing. Secondly,

640
00:30:38,561 --> 00:30:40,881
Speaker 4: how believable and incredible is their story? You know? When

641
00:30:40,881 --> 00:30:44,001
Speaker 4: he was recalling information, I mean, look, ideally, you know,

642
00:30:44,201 --> 00:30:45,881
Speaker 4: I didn't have a lot of material to work with,

643
00:30:46,081 --> 00:30:48,881
Speaker 4: because what ideally, in the perfect world, I'd say, okay, Tommy,

644
00:30:48,921 --> 00:30:51,721
Speaker 4: what happened and then we could go through all the evidence.

645
00:30:51,921 --> 00:30:55,081
Speaker 4: But I remember you and I having a conversation out

646
00:30:55,081 --> 00:30:58,081
Speaker 4: the front of Harry Phipps place and you said, well,

647
00:30:58,161 --> 00:31:00,241
Speaker 4: you know, he says that he let off shots inside

648
00:31:00,241 --> 00:31:00,641
Speaker 4: the house.

649
00:31:01,201 --> 00:31:03,921
Speaker 1: You know that seems a little bit unbelievable, Well does it?

650
00:31:04,001 --> 00:31:07,041
Speaker 4: I mean sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction. I mean,

651
00:31:07,281 --> 00:31:10,561
Speaker 4: you look at victims of sexual abuse and whatnot, and

652
00:31:11,041 --> 00:31:13,641
Speaker 4: you listen to some of the stories and they seem

653
00:31:14,241 --> 00:31:18,361
Speaker 4: incredibly difficult to believe. But you know, sometimes the most

654
00:31:18,401 --> 00:31:22,401
Speaker 4: strangest stories end up being true. I look at motive.

655
00:31:22,561 --> 00:31:25,081
Speaker 4: You know, what's his motive? And that's the important point.

656
00:31:25,161 --> 00:31:27,521
Speaker 2: Yeah, Listen, that was just one piece of evidence within

657
00:31:27,561 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: a whole range of things we were looking at. And

658
00:31:29,801 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: in that case, I then went and spoke to a

659
00:31:32,241 --> 00:31:35,681
Speaker 2: cousin of Hayden Phipps, who said he's a liar, and

660
00:31:35,721 --> 00:31:38,881
Speaker 2: she told a lot of stories that suggested he was lying.

661
00:31:39,201 --> 00:31:41,921
Speaker 2: But I guess in that situation you'd want to polygraph

662
00:31:42,161 --> 00:31:45,241
Speaker 2: the cousin to have some sort of benchmark to say, well,

663
00:31:45,521 --> 00:31:48,161
Speaker 2: let's look at Hayden's testimony in a different light.

664
00:31:49,001 --> 00:31:52,681
Speaker 4: It's always difficult testing a person on a thought he

665
00:31:52,801 --> 00:31:54,841
Speaker 4: was always a lie. I say, give me some examples,

666
00:31:55,601 --> 00:31:57,721
Speaker 4: and then I'd try to cooperate that to work out.

667
00:31:57,761 --> 00:32:01,641
Speaker 4: You know, and we've seen cases, more recent cases where

668
00:32:02,241 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 4: one lie covers another lie covers another lie, and then

669
00:32:05,241 --> 00:32:07,921
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, investigats will hang on you lied

670
00:32:07,961 --> 00:32:09,921
Speaker 4: about that. Why would you not lie about that? If

671
00:32:09,961 --> 00:32:12,401
Speaker 4: you're telling the truth, you've got nothing to fear. So

672
00:32:12,721 --> 00:32:16,801
Speaker 4: sometimes people do lie. I mean some cases where a

673
00:32:16,921 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 4: person is lied because they're having an affair and they

674
00:32:19,201 --> 00:32:21,321
Speaker 4: don't want their wife to know about it. But does

675
00:32:21,361 --> 00:32:23,161
Speaker 4: that mean they're their keiller? Not necessarily.

676
00:32:24,041 --> 00:32:27,121
Speaker 2: By the way, do you think Harry Phipps did abduct

677
00:32:27,161 --> 00:32:28,081
Speaker 2: and murder the Beaumonts.

678
00:32:28,761 --> 00:32:31,081
Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, to be honest, I think there was more

679
00:32:31,081 --> 00:32:33,001
Speaker 4: than one offender. I think there's more than just Harry.

680
00:32:33,601 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 4: I think as we discovered, as we investigated that there

681
00:32:37,961 --> 00:32:41,921
Speaker 4: are a number of people in quite high places that

682
00:32:42,881 --> 00:32:48,841
Speaker 4: were involved in a well established pedophile network. And yeah,

683
00:32:50,161 --> 00:32:52,121
Speaker 4: I think Harry was definitely involved, But I don't think

684
00:32:52,161 --> 00:32:52,921
Speaker 4: he was the only one.

685
00:32:53,721 --> 00:32:54,521
Speaker 1: That's what we differ.

686
00:32:54,601 --> 00:32:56,681
Speaker 2: I don't think he was involved. I think there were

687
00:32:56,721 --> 00:32:59,401
Speaker 2: lots of circumstantial pieces of evidence that point to him,

688
00:32:59,801 --> 00:33:02,841
Speaker 2: but I think the heaviest piece of information or allegations

689
00:33:02,881 --> 00:33:06,241
Speaker 2: come from Hayden, and I just don't trust Hayden's testimony.

690
00:33:06,241 --> 00:33:08,041
Speaker 2: What I find remarkable in that case, though, is that

691
00:33:08,321 --> 00:33:11,041
Speaker 2: the South Australian Coroner does not want to hold an

692
00:33:11,081 --> 00:33:13,521
Speaker 2: inquest after all these years. I think that's a good

693
00:33:13,521 --> 00:33:16,761
Speaker 2: way to not just test the information that's out there,

694
00:33:16,881 --> 00:33:18,441
Speaker 2: but also the police investigation.

695
00:33:19,361 --> 00:33:19,561
Speaker 3: Yeah.

696
00:33:19,601 --> 00:33:23,281
Speaker 4: Look, I can't see any reason why there should not

697
00:33:23,321 --> 00:33:26,641
Speaker 4: be one. I mean, the argument and we've heard it before,

698
00:33:26,681 --> 00:33:28,961
Speaker 4: you know, so long ago, the parents have passed away

699
00:33:29,041 --> 00:33:30,681
Speaker 4: and all that type of thing. I think there is

700
00:33:30,761 --> 00:33:34,881
Speaker 4: one surviving or two surviving family members. I think that

701
00:33:35,121 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 4: you know, these typicicronial inquiries can highlight inconsistencies in evidence

702
00:33:40,081 --> 00:33:44,361
Speaker 4: or investigative processes, where future investigators can learn from mistakes

703
00:33:44,361 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 4: from previous investigators. I don't see any negative I mean,

704
00:33:47,561 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 4: if it comes down to cost, well that's negligible. But

705
00:33:50,801 --> 00:33:52,561
Speaker 4: I think at the end of the day, the whole

706
00:33:52,641 --> 00:33:55,761
Speaker 4: legal system is predicated on the basis that crimes will

707
00:33:55,761 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 4: be investigated and if necessarily, prosecuted, and that's the system

708
00:34:00,521 --> 00:34:02,081
Speaker 4: in which we live in. I would like to see

709
00:34:02,081 --> 00:34:06,641
Speaker 4: it the other thing too. Sometimes these hearings or as

710
00:34:06,721 --> 00:34:09,041
Speaker 4: you know, royal commissions can bring out other witnesses that

711
00:34:09,121 --> 00:34:12,121
Speaker 4: previously have never had a voice, who have never been approached,

712
00:34:12,161 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 4: who have valuable information that can help.

713
00:34:14,441 --> 00:34:14,601
Speaker 1: Well.

714
00:34:14,601 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: That one's particularly important because on the day that they

715
00:34:18,481 --> 00:34:21,481
Speaker 2: disappeared and the following days people lined up at Glenell

716
00:34:21,601 --> 00:34:25,321
Speaker 2: Police station to give eyewitness accounts. There was two coppers

717
00:34:25,321 --> 00:34:27,801
Speaker 2: on duty, a couple of phone lines. They didn't get

718
00:34:27,841 --> 00:34:31,161
Speaker 2: to speak to everyone. So this queue of people maybe

719
00:34:31,161 --> 00:34:34,801
Speaker 2: didn't give their evidence and so they're still out there

720
00:34:35,041 --> 00:34:37,961
Speaker 2: or their children, and you think what was missed in

721
00:34:38,001 --> 00:34:41,201
Speaker 2: those early moments. And I think that's why a coronial

722
00:34:41,241 --> 00:34:45,441
Speaker 2: inquiry is very useful because the community also needs some

723
00:34:45,641 --> 00:34:48,321
Speaker 2: form of resolution of these things to say, well, was

724
00:34:48,361 --> 00:34:49,561
Speaker 2: it properly investigated?

725
00:34:50,241 --> 00:34:53,041
Speaker 4: And you know the other thing there is you hear

726
00:34:53,121 --> 00:34:56,561
Speaker 4: of cases where people have actually approached the police and

727
00:34:56,561 --> 00:34:59,401
Speaker 4: that's our This is you know, I mean, this is

728
00:34:59,401 --> 00:35:02,921
Speaker 4: why we have intelligence reports and whatnot because sometimes the

729
00:35:03,001 --> 00:35:05,881
Speaker 4: file and ron It Wilson often used to say it,

730
00:35:05,961 --> 00:35:08,481
Speaker 4: usually the killer's name is in the file somewhere. And

731
00:35:08,481 --> 00:35:10,841
Speaker 4: that's why a new set of fresh eyes can pick

732
00:35:10,881 --> 00:35:13,601
Speaker 4: things up that other investigators may have had a particular

733
00:35:13,641 --> 00:35:16,521
Speaker 4: bias towards or against. So let me give you a

734
00:35:16,521 --> 00:35:19,241
Speaker 4: great example. In my experience, I worked at Flemington CIB

735
00:35:19,761 --> 00:35:23,721
Speaker 4: and I investigated an armed robbery and the uniform did

736
00:35:23,761 --> 00:35:26,761
Speaker 4: a doorknock, very casual door knock, and I had to

737
00:35:26,801 --> 00:35:29,921
Speaker 4: investigate the next day. It happened on a Thursday, so

738
00:35:30,361 --> 00:35:32,521
Speaker 4: humans are where creatures are habits. So I thought, well,

739
00:35:32,601 --> 00:35:34,121
Speaker 4: what I do is I go back on the Thursday

740
00:35:34,121 --> 00:35:36,401
Speaker 4: at the time the armed Robbie happened, and I knock

741
00:35:36,441 --> 00:35:39,161
Speaker 4: on a number of doors and this lovely lady come out.

742
00:35:39,201 --> 00:35:42,321
Speaker 4: I said, look, I'm investigating an arm robbine that happened

743
00:35:42,401 --> 00:35:44,521
Speaker 4: last Thursday, and she goes, yeah, I remember that, and

744
00:35:44,561 --> 00:35:46,921
Speaker 4: she said. The uniform police come and spoke to me.

745
00:35:47,001 --> 00:35:49,201
Speaker 4: I said, oh, and is there anything that you saw

746
00:35:49,321 --> 00:35:52,081
Speaker 4: that you think may be important? And sometimes the smallest

747
00:35:52,081 --> 00:35:55,041
Speaker 4: things she goes, oh yeah. I actually didn't like the

748
00:35:55,081 --> 00:35:57,241
Speaker 4: police officer who spoke to me. It was quite rude.

749
00:35:57,401 --> 00:36:00,001
Speaker 4: I said, oh, okay, what happened? She explained, it was

750
00:36:00,121 --> 00:36:02,401
Speaker 4: very abrupt. She said, I just felt like I said,

751
00:36:02,841 --> 00:36:06,001
Speaker 4: I may have some information and said, what's happenings? Well,

752
00:36:06,201 --> 00:36:08,921
Speaker 4: I think this car blah blah bude, she's going on

753
00:36:08,961 --> 00:36:10,961
Speaker 4: a bit anyway. As it turns out, she recorded the

754
00:36:11,001 --> 00:36:13,201
Speaker 4: registration number of the car. They get away car.

755
00:36:13,521 --> 00:36:15,761
Speaker 1: Now you know, at the end of the day.

756
00:36:16,041 --> 00:36:19,801
Speaker 4: It's how people react that makes a difference to a

757
00:36:19,801 --> 00:36:21,321
Speaker 4: lot of these crimes. Now, going back to what you

758
00:36:21,361 --> 00:36:25,281
Speaker 4: were saying, sometimes people find God, they find Christianity, they

759
00:36:25,321 --> 00:36:29,161
Speaker 4: have cancer, life threatening disease, they've been sitting or living

760
00:36:29,201 --> 00:36:32,161
Speaker 4: with the secret, this dark secret, and they've never been

761
00:36:32,201 --> 00:36:35,241
Speaker 4: approached or you know, for whatever reason. This why cases

762
00:36:35,361 --> 00:36:38,761
Speaker 4: twenty thirty years old can sometimes be solved.

763
00:36:38,881 --> 00:36:40,761
Speaker 2: Is I was amazed in the wake of our show

764
00:36:40,801 --> 00:36:44,281
Speaker 2: The Hunters how many people sent me messages about cases

765
00:36:44,361 --> 00:36:45,801
Speaker 2: we'd investigate all others.

766
00:36:46,081 --> 00:36:46,761
Speaker 1: I was amazed.

767
00:36:46,801 --> 00:36:49,401
Speaker 2: I mean people had information that they said, oh the

768
00:36:49,401 --> 00:36:53,601
Speaker 2: police wren't interested, or they dismissed me. And what advice

769
00:36:53,641 --> 00:36:55,521
Speaker 2: would you give to people who have that kind of

770
00:36:55,561 --> 00:36:59,481
Speaker 2: information but feel that they'll be rebuffed or not taken seriously.

771
00:37:00,761 --> 00:37:03,841
Speaker 4: You know, I firstly, write it down. That's the most

772
00:37:03,881 --> 00:37:06,521
Speaker 4: important thing, because over fiod of time people forget things

773
00:37:06,521 --> 00:37:10,921
Speaker 4: and write down everything as best you can recall at times, dates, place, memories,

774
00:37:11,001 --> 00:37:13,441
Speaker 4: all that type of thing. And then I always say, like,

775
00:37:13,601 --> 00:37:17,041
Speaker 4: report it. And we saw this with the Bondi Headland

776
00:37:17,481 --> 00:37:19,041
Speaker 4: murders and that where a lot of people are being

777
00:37:19,081 --> 00:37:23,081
Speaker 4: the murders thrown to their deaths where a lot of people,

778
00:37:23,401 --> 00:37:27,241
Speaker 4: you know, police sort of wrote things off as suicides

779
00:37:27,241 --> 00:37:30,641
Speaker 4: when it was clear that there was good evidential Well,

780
00:37:30,681 --> 00:37:34,081
Speaker 4: there's evidence there that it wasn't, so yeah, report it,

781
00:37:34,201 --> 00:37:37,041
Speaker 4: and you know, you never know because as we saw

782
00:37:37,081 --> 00:37:41,281
Speaker 4: with the Royal Commission into that, eventually new police were

783
00:37:41,361 --> 00:37:44,641
Speaker 4: sent out to chase up old leads and it did

784
00:37:45,161 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 4: return some vague.

785
00:37:46,681 --> 00:37:49,001
Speaker 2: One case I'm going to cover shortly on the show

786
00:37:49,401 --> 00:37:52,921
Speaker 2: is Eryl Grimmer disappeared from Ferry Meadow Beach near Wollongong

787
00:37:53,041 --> 00:37:57,081
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy and a new witness came forward recently

788
00:37:57,121 --> 00:37:59,761
Speaker 2: who was a young boy at the time, migrant family

789
00:37:59,801 --> 00:38:02,481
Speaker 2: living across the road in a hostel, didn't have television,

790
00:38:02,681 --> 00:38:06,201
Speaker 2: didn't see the case at all, but did see young Cheryl,

791
00:38:06,281 --> 00:38:09,001
Speaker 2: three year old being picked up by a man and

792
00:38:09,081 --> 00:38:13,521
Speaker 2: taken away as an absolute carbon copy memory of that.

793
00:38:13,921 --> 00:38:17,721
Speaker 2: He came forward only recently, and the US Southwell's Homicide

794
00:38:17,721 --> 00:38:22,721
Speaker 2: Squad said wind interview him, can't use his testimony because

795
00:38:23,001 --> 00:38:25,401
Speaker 2: he could have made it up. And I thought that

796
00:38:25,521 --> 00:38:28,801
Speaker 2: was a classic case where a polygraph could actually help.

797
00:38:28,841 --> 00:38:30,761
Speaker 2: And I've said to the family that they should get

798
00:38:30,801 --> 00:38:33,321
Speaker 2: you in there to talk to this witness to test

799
00:38:33,361 --> 00:38:35,561
Speaker 2: his memory. Is he making it up? Is he me too?

800
00:38:35,961 --> 00:38:37,401
Speaker 1: Kind of character? What would you do.

801
00:38:38,801 --> 00:38:42,281
Speaker 4: Well, I'd look at it from an investigative background. I'd

802
00:38:42,281 --> 00:38:45,081
Speaker 4: actually get that witness to do what we did on

803
00:38:45,081 --> 00:38:48,801
Speaker 4: one of our episodes and do a face composite because

804
00:38:49,601 --> 00:38:53,441
Speaker 4: as you know, they can be aged. So who knows

805
00:38:53,521 --> 00:38:56,521
Speaker 4: there weren't other victims from this same person, So there

806
00:38:56,561 --> 00:38:58,201
Speaker 4: could be someone out there that could actually be the

807
00:38:58,201 --> 00:39:01,761
Speaker 4: missing link and connect the you know, not maybe two

808
00:39:02,161 --> 00:39:04,921
Speaker 4: unsolved crimes, but to this particular crime. You know, through

809
00:39:05,121 --> 00:39:08,961
Speaker 4: the passage of time, you know, people do lose their

810
00:39:08,961 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 4: memories and stories change, so I would say polygraph would

811
00:39:11,961 --> 00:39:14,361
Speaker 4: be great for that. But also if they don't believe

812
00:39:15,081 --> 00:39:17,601
Speaker 4: you know, somebody, I mean, we can cover that, but

813
00:39:18,081 --> 00:39:21,041
Speaker 4: why not do a phase composite and have that distributed

814
00:39:21,241 --> 00:39:24,561
Speaker 4: and maybe someone out there because you know as well

815
00:39:24,561 --> 00:39:27,081
Speaker 4: as I do, a lot of these crimes are solved

816
00:39:27,121 --> 00:39:30,281
Speaker 4: by a single phone call out of nowhere over many.

817
00:39:30,121 --> 00:39:34,001
Speaker 1: Years, and that's all it takes. So you never know

818
00:39:34,241 --> 00:39:34,961
Speaker 1: what's happening.

819
00:39:35,201 --> 00:39:38,841
Speaker 4: And sometimes in domestic cases, partners are so scared of

820
00:39:38,921 --> 00:39:42,121
Speaker 4: their partners and then for whatever reason, something happens and

821
00:39:42,161 --> 00:39:45,881
Speaker 4: they're no longer threatened and then they unburden themselves will

822
00:39:45,921 --> 00:39:48,121
Speaker 4: come out. So these are the people that should be

823
00:39:48,161 --> 00:39:50,841
Speaker 4: listened to. And look, you know, I used to get

824
00:39:50,841 --> 00:39:53,561
Speaker 4: this all the time. You bring out crackpots and you know,

825
00:39:54,121 --> 00:39:56,561
Speaker 4: conspiracy theorists and all that type of thing. But we

826
00:39:56,681 --> 00:39:59,361
Speaker 4: still have to check, you know, we still have to

827
00:39:59,961 --> 00:40:00,921
Speaker 4: follow those leads up.

828
00:40:02,321 --> 00:40:03,721
Speaker 2: You've got to talk to them. I think I'm going

829
00:40:03,801 --> 00:40:05,841
Speaker 2: to keep pushing in that case because I think this

830
00:40:05,961 --> 00:40:09,161
Speaker 2: witness could actually really drive this case forward. Steve, it's

831
00:40:09,201 --> 00:40:10,921
Speaker 2: been a pleasure to talk to you. As always, I

832
00:40:11,001 --> 00:40:13,281
Speaker 2: look forward to re engaging with you on The Hunter's

833
00:40:13,321 --> 00:40:15,641
Speaker 2: next series. We'll waiting to see what happens there and

834
00:40:15,721 --> 00:40:18,721
Speaker 2: also putting more people under the microscope of the Polyger.

835
00:40:18,761 --> 00:40:23,001
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me today, My pleasure, Adam. That was

836
00:40:23,041 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: Steve Van Admren the Human Light Detector. You can see

837
00:40:26,001 --> 00:40:29,281
Speaker 2: our stories on seven plus The Hunters. And if you

838
00:40:29,321 --> 00:40:33,081
Speaker 2: do have information on a crime, don't sit there and say, oh,

839
00:40:33,121 --> 00:40:36,201
Speaker 2: the police not interested, or that that's only a small piece.

840
00:40:36,681 --> 00:40:40,721
Speaker 2: Come forward. Call Crimestoppers one eight hundred, Triple three, Triple zero,

841
00:40:41,041 --> 00:40:42,921
Speaker 2: or you can email me if you're scared of the police.

842
00:40:43,201 --> 00:40:45,881
Speaker 2: Adam Shann, writer at gmail dot com will certainly take

843
00:40:45,881 --> 00:40:49,321
Speaker 2: it seriously. This has been real crime with Adam Shann.

844
00:40:49,361 --> 00:40:50,881
Speaker 2: I'm Adam Shanned. Thanks for listening.