WEBVTT - Surviving the world’s most brutal prisons: Billy Moore Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.119 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.160 exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.440 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.840 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. I first 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:52.440 heard about today's guest when he was featured in a 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.560 major international film called A Prayer Before Dawn. The movie 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.400 just blew me away. How he survived and the fact 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:01.840 he's here talk to us today speaks volumes for the 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.600 human spirit. Today's guest is certainly no angel. He's made 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.039 mistakes throughout his life. He's served time in prison in 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.360 the UK, survived the horror of being incarcerated in two 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.399 of Thailand's most notorious prisons. He's going to talk to 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:19.080 us today about his life and experiences. Takes a lot 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.360 to shock me these days, but today's guest has a 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.520 story of survival and redemption and it's hard to comprehend 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.119 what he's been through. Today's guest is Englishman Billy Moore. 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.200 I've been trying to get him on the podcast for 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.000 a very long time and I'm excited about today. Billy Moore, 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:35.520 Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:36.200 Thank you. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.520 I've been wanting to get you on this podcast for 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.279 a long time. I first became interested in your story 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.040 when I saw the movie about your life, A Prayer 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.280 before Dawn, and I got to say, it really blew 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:48.720 me away. 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.800 It did me, to be fair, because when it was lad, 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:53.520 when it was it was quite surreal. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.080 Yeah, I can imagine that you'd be looking at it 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.720 and there was some intense stuff there. But did you 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:04.040 at any stage surprise you're still here? There must have 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.240 been times when you think I'm just not going to 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:06.840 make it through. 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:10.920 There's plenty of times times when I force I just 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:15.680 wanted to give up. Alsorely ended my shelf you know, 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:17.640 there was a point when I was in prison in 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.680 shang Mai and I was on death row because of 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:25.000 you know, me be eighty and the consequences had created 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.600 yesterday movie from normal location. And the only place that 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.000 adapt me is like the shells on the fifth floor, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.080 which were health and exephal and people who were shaven 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.799 over to eighty five years. And it was like that 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.560 would probably be most esperate time in prison. 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.400 I could imagine how how low that would think, just 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.639 take you to prison, because I think this is sort 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:50.640 of broad a time, I was doing some prep for 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:55.519 the podcast and came across this that this is December 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.040 two thousand and seven, and this is how you described 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.799 your first night in chang My prison. I was told 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.160 to sleep in the far corner, and in the corner 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:05.920 was a body that was just lying there with a 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.920 sheet over his face. Tell us about that. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.239 I remember being in the court not understanding what was 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.720 getting said to me. But I was taking to gang 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.640 My Senseral prison at the time, going through these gates, 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.720 and it was its own experience, you know, in itself. 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.520 Because the bus was just crammed with people. No one 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.440 could speak English. I just kept quiet. I had loads 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:36.160 of fear and anxiety going on, but I didn't I 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.680 didn't have I had to show like courage. I didn't 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.880 want anyone to share. It was scared. I was masked 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.080 into this shell after you know, the initially instroductional to 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.640 you know, the prison rules, you know. On the floor 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.600 was like it was it was like his saer arms 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.680 and legs and there was no space on the floor 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.040 and I was looking around the thing based the beds. 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.640 It was. It was sort of short. You know, you 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.200 will next back when I come here. They sleeping on 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.560 the floor. You see next to each for there there's 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.560 no way, there's no sheets, there's no batteries, there's no 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.840 nun you know, when you're getting directed into the corner 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.320 of this room, and you know, remember sweeping next to 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:20.640 this guy you had the sheet over his face, over 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.560 his body, you know, and another guy, a lady boy 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.159 called Stan and he shut in. I was just, you know, 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:31.000 is this is this too real? They're going to move 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.280 this body or what? And when he asked the lady 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.040 boy who spoke to me here broken English, you went, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.800 it's okay, no problems, you know, say bank Holody will 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:39.679 move them on Monday. 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:44.360 Yeah, I can, I can understand. I right. I raise 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.520 that first up because I think if people want to 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.120 understand that world that you found yourself in, that was 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.320 such a stark example of it that they are you 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.559 sleeping beside the dead body for a couple of days. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.960 Welcome to Thailand prison. Let's talk about your your life 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.960 the start, because there's always a beckstory. You don't just 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:05.880 wake up one day and find yourself in a type prison. 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.599 But where were you born? In Liverpool? 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:10.520 Yeah? Yeah? 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:12.520 What was here? What was your childhood like? 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.200 It was one of the feeling really source of a loan, 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.000 even though there was I was in a big family. 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.760 There was Shakespeare's and I was the oldest and five 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:27.800 younger hivens be sad. He was drinking alcohol every single day. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.000 My mum was waking every hour. God send you know 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.320 the time, pay the bills. You know. It was very 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.880 volatile and violence, and it was just full of feeling. 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.200 All he ever wanted to do was be acknowledged by me, dad, 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.200 because he was my hero. He was me, your own 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.800 model you no matter what it did, you know, I 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.240 never got any any attention. I didn't feel there was 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:54.279 any acceptance. I didn't understand, you know, the concept of 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.400 love and intimacy. The only sam we ever felt any 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.800 intimacy was when my mom used to put the nick 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.080 going through our hair and the su the evening before 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:05.880 stew on a Monday. So I was quite quite lonely 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.360 and isolated. I went with Skew, very insecure, so I 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.159 didn't speak what I found myself in a lot of 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.880 trouble and I didn't understand why. I think it was 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.000 getting a tension then all the wrong places, especially in Skew. 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.800 You know, I was getting back. Then we got the cane, 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.719 We got whacked with stick by the seasies, you know. 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.440 And it was for me that was on a regular basis. 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.920 So I was getting I was getting beat up and 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:30.880 stew by the seas and then I was rolling home 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:32.800 and I was getting the beats up at home backside, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:34.800 and then on the way home, I was getting beat 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.599 up by kids, you know, bullies. And he often laid 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.160 take no wonder did these contributing fastest that led to 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:45.239 me just like calligating and reacting, and he scathed them, 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:46.440 you know, through drug use. 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.960 When you talk about a start like that, billy like 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:53.320 its uh yeah, you are a product of your environment 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.640 and whether we like it, like it or not, we 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.840 carry a lot of ship from our childhood and it 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.359 carries it carries through our life in the way you 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.960 describe that when you're looking for love, you're looking for recognition, 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.239 you're not getting it. You're seeing violence. Your old man's hitting, 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.480 hitting the grog and you know it sounds like a 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.480 violent type of type of character as a kid. They're 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.120 your formative years, no wonder you feel, feel confused, and 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.160 you look back and I have a lot of blakes 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.440 on this podcast, and I know a lot of people 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.840 friends that you have gone off track and you look 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.240 back at their childhood and you think, jeez, how how 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.280 would have I gone if that was my upbringing? So 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.480 it takes a judgment out of it, but it does 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.520 shape your those formative years, does shape the direction your 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:38.840 head off in life, don't they? 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:39.320 Yeah? 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:40.880 In all. 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.760 In all, honestly, when I was the younger, I just 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.720 want us to be different from me, Dad, because you know, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:50.920 from a lot of division. You know, I see me 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.960 Mum's certifire, to see them smashing the elk shore. You know, 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.240 we were getting leasim attacked, just unpretectable. That was that 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.960 was the worst. You know when Lee, you know, we'd 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.280 walk up and down behind you and he'd hated band 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.280 in the corner with your hands on your head, m 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.840 and you just be waiting for that smart And it 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.320 wasn't the fact that I wasn't I didn't any fade 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.440 the post. It was when it was going to happen, 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.680 you know what I mean, like just do it? You 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.400 know what I mean, it's you know that was It 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:28.720 was just horrible feeling and by emotionally breaking zan every 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.600 nice go to bed. And I felt to myself, you know, 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.040 if it's in a boxing club, it could be that 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.600 claim to be a boxer. I've never seen him actually 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.160 no box unless it was all me or my family, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:48.079 will me mom befourse he'd acknowledged me so during the 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.960 boxing club, and I wanted to be in the army show. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.760 It was in the the kid Jetts. It wasn't on 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.400 the calf to go down the path of like crime 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:02.520 and addiction. That wasn't a SHAWNA wanted. It wasn't planing batter. 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.400 From from what I'm taking taking from that, even with 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:09.319 that environment, you still had aspirations to make something of yourself, 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:14.079 whether that was getting respect and acceptance through boxing or 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.640 or joining the army and being part of the tribe 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.840 people that you felt part of a group. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.240 What that was the problem. That was the problem that 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:27.240 he made because I was suffering from an early age, 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.959 you know, from all the abuse, the physical abuse. That 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.320 talked with me to who have the environments for western 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:35.120 But when I was in the ca death, you know, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.040 I was like a target for people because of the 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.840 way I acted, you know, so I wasn't fitting in there. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:43.760 You know. 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.199 The only place that did really fit in with the 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.400 box shol because it was it was a solace the board. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.000 It wasn't a team kind of game. You went playing 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.079 football and others as to get the ball pass to 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.000 you or you know, it was like you have to 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.160 face and you have to win, and if you lost, 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.960 it was because you didn't saying, you know that capture 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:04.719 show I felt better doing that. 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.840 I understand what you're saying, they Billy, and I see 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.880 the difference between your team sports and boxing, and I 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.960 understand the boxing world and you see people in boxing, 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.880 and you're quite right. You can be part of a group, 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.920 the training group, but it all comes down to the individual. 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.960 So you're responsible for your own own actions, and yeah, 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.280 looking after yourself. There's no one else in there with you. 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.599 So did you find any piece through boxing or in 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:32.880 the cadet so or were you still still angry? 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.000 It was more it was an gay for me, the 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:40.160 saying and the discipline and you know, physical ensurance that 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.559 it was jam competing in the sports, you know. But 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.240 at the same time we did started to acknowledge me. 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:47.920 I'll take you a little bit of notice, but I 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.160 think by that time it was too late. I think 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:51.440 the damage was already done. 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:53.400 You'd move past through the years. 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:55.719 Yeah, and I got through points. I was like, what, 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.199 fourteen years old, and you know they had loads of 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.240 you know, musen as he shows, there's loads of lace, rebellion, malbo, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.280 loads of blaming. If it wasn't for you, you know, 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.120 as a young seens. Yeah, I was boxing, you know, 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.600 I says. And my dad didn't see them as intimidating 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.440 as you did when I was younger. But I still 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.000 had that fear. He still all that fear over me. 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.400 I do understand the hold, stupid. I also understand where 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.959 you say it wasn't the pain of being punched or 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.760 hit or flogged by your old man. It was just 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:36.960 anticipating when it's gonna happen. And yeah, you're probably saying, 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.240 you're saying like you're outgrownding by the age of four name, 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.160 but it's still in your psyche, isn't it. What the upbringing? 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:43.680 It's funny, funny transition. 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.120 Yeah, it is just like you know it is to 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.280 be natured and loved them, you know, guided through your life. 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.040 You know what it is to be beating you know, 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.800 batter that's gonna be fair thought. That happened in everyone's family. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.640 And whether he's the piece with it, you know, young 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.120 kids that you will you know, I realized that it 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.000 didn't it was any difference at my houseo to theirs, 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.760 and he often wanted to be, you know, living with 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.400 them and their family, you know, even that I was adopted. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.280 Yeah, this is all a mistake. That's my family, not 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:14.719 this one. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:15.320 Yeah. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.079 When when did you start getting into trouble with the law? 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.480 When when did that start to play it? 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.800 I was probably like about fifteen, sixteen years old, heaving 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.960 towards sixteen years old, and you know, I was boxing 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.079 for a couple of years. I didn't want to be 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.720 her own. So five shows standing on the street corners 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.400 with young lads. I was heading in the right direction. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.000 It was quite well behaved. But then yeah, just trying 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.760 to face in with a different crowd, and then drugs 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.040 come on the scene. You know when I faced it 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.880 was dealing cars. You know the thrill there's three or 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.560 four years going out and enjoyed riding. You know. Then 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:54.760 you know that you can make a little bit of 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.839 money for sholling wheels, seams in carsteadios. You know, by 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.320 getting money, you know what you know, you start spend 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.199 it on a bit of drink and that's a gay 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.760 weight dog, you know, then a little bit of cannabis, 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.480 and then you're so balling two other things. So to 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.360 me it was quite rapid. I realized that when it 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.920 starts to say glug, you have very child with experiences 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.199 kind of melted away from the bit briefly. 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.920 That's interesting, and you describe a path that has been 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.640 followed so often by so many people. You know, you 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.320 start dabbling in a little bit of crime, you get 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.120 caught up in the wrong crowd, have alcohol. You haven't 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.480 got the sense to know what your limited is when 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.840 you're a kid, and then you start cannabis and then 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.040 rolls into something something more serious. Did you at any 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.800 point in those those times, you know, I'm thinking you're 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.199 fifteen around that age sixteen, did you ever try and 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.600 check yourself and think I am heading down the wrong 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.760 path here? Did that ever cross your mind? 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.800 You know what, it's even perfectly honest, moll, I suppose 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.559 would have had that guidence. It was not like I 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.680 think what happened was that I got sixteen years old, 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.000 I was on these drugs. You know, it was all fun, 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.640 it was all games, but it was losing fights. I'm 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.480 sure I was losing the willingness, and you know that 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.760 the joy, the enjoyment was a bit short of like declining. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.280 And then I think what really really God was when 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.320 he had the fight was then based off when I 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:23.640 was sixteen years old. 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.000 A straight far a straight farce. You got a nice 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.400 little Evander Hollofield. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.480 Either. Yeah, it wasn't actually based off it was shown 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.160 back hornbook. It kind of didn't heal. So the SV 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.360 movie again a couple of weeks later. 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.320 Wait, wait did that happen? Was that in the ring 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:39.680 or was that in the straight? 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.880 That was a three fights that was all the strong 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.800 petty as a young kid. It was an argument with 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.640 an older lad who was like short of like yeah, 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.000 sort of boulsom and everyone was afraid of him, and 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:53.680 he's used to be mad than me and his adular 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.080 bully and everyone. And I'm not taking this. I must 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:58.520 you know, if you've got a staffish something of your 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:00.480 fall for any of us and given as good as 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.080 it gore. Yeah, unfortunately, you know me a bit and 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.440 then me shelf esteem, me confidence, the way I look, 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.840 the way I perceived himself with girls and stuff. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:13.880 I hadn't even thought about that, but yeah, if you 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.560 had a badly damage you, you're a little bit sensitive 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.600 about your looks and everything that's going on at that 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.920 that age. So yeah, I can understand that would ply 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:22.480 on your mind. 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.560 It's totally he was. I was just distructed more then. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.760 Well did you did you do time in boys homes? 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.160 Do you have no a detention centers? 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.360 Yeah? Yeah, I don't like when I was Chevy seeing 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.520 me firsteens, I was gonna care all for a couple 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:43.080 of weeks at sixteen to commit a time and then okay, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.080 I kind of like that to be honest. It sounds daisy, 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.520 but it was a It was a mixed care all 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.720 with girls and lads. They would all just functional, liking shelf, 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.920 a little mad, crazy gang of unwell kids to believe. 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.640 So the way the way you're describing the billy, I 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.640 can say it would be fun, but they'd have to 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.840 keep a tight rain on that because it could get 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:08.480 out of control too in a bunch of crew like 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:09.160 you described. 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.760 Yeah, yeah, meet ye meet and girls and then you know, 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.480 you know, you full of test all. You know, you're 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.840 young and you know you love a little bit of 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.480 a revelent. It was I was. I was arrested and 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.600 on Liverpool showed me access who you know, the girls 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.560 to avatime. I love the socials and all that. So 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:28.560 it was just like it was. It was it was 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:33.520 getting objected by a different kind of car. And I 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:34.960 didn't want to go for bail. I mean, you know, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.320 young and you know Baylor's you know where they. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.120 You let you go, You're you're happy where you were. 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.840 Yeah, I don't want to get bail. We'll go back home. 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.280 I'm happy the fel Steve, but obviously he bailed me 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.600 because it would be first defense. And then it wasn't 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.400 long after that I was in juvenile hear Masste's Young 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:54.600 Defenders Institute. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.680 How did you cope with that? Was it daunting for 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.800 you or was it almost like it was never the Yeah, 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:01.640 it was very frightened. 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.320 It was because I've got to a point ended. I 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.680 was addicted to the past drugs, the A six days, 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:12.480 never seeing the transition from canabis and you know, snow 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.760 balled into that massively. And I didn't understand the withdra 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.920 passed taking Opius until that they go into this Young 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.119 Defenders and Shoes. I was there for the week. I 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.959 was horrible with the facet week and I never slept. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.280 You're you're coming off the gate whale, isn't that? 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.760 Yeah, off the gear. I'm just we're gonna celerible states, 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.440 couldn't shrip, but couldn't stop paying move and I was 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.320 I was vomiting, had crampsh it was it was. It 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:44.080 was an end of experience study. I remember vividly. And 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.600 the worst pass about it was like she was lying 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.200 it all night, you know, for hours. It's just like 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.439 wide away and and having to having soon no they 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.280 I'm going to be doing it the next night, and 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:57.960 the nice after that, and then the nice after that 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.040 without any street and then we went by and I 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.720 went to the course like you got to remember your 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.440 fair Simon in a proper prison. And then you gave 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.520 me bail. He said. It was at the course and 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:13.840 there was a fan of fifteen pounds which he paid, 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.520 bought me a drink and said, you know what's wrong? 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:19.240 Did you? And I couldn't really say. I was just 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:21.959 you know, I didn't want to didn't have any idea 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:23.960 any you know, wrongly, I don't know, I didn't have 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.040 any understanding what you. 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.720 Just said there. It's so like it said, because you're old. 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.840 Man's a product of his environment too, and he's probably 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:34.560 trying to do the right thing, but it's probably the 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.040 worst thing he could do. And yeah, I'll talk to 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:38.960 him and take you across the across to the pub. 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.240 But yeah, well I was let's try. I wasn't. That 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.680 wasn't that big drinking and never i've been, you know, 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.000 being shown. That's being quite fond of it, you know, 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:53.800 sultably as Fiday. But you know it was really I 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.639 didn't least fit intentially the drinking crowd. Yeah, yeah, I 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.159 had to drink him to drinking cool share at least. No, 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:01.040 he's just watching me. 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.600 What was the hook that heroin? What heroin is such 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.040 a like it destroys so many lives And like, I 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.600 hear so many people talk about you once they've gone 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.879 down down that path. What was the hook for you 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:15.760 with heroin? 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.840 And what it gave me? It was like, yeah, I'll 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:20.960 tell you how it started. A meta Gale found on 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.440 his three calls. She must have been about twety years old. 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.040 She was a shell of a shawl on the streets 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.920 and you know, you know, can you can you get 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.360 us any rowin? I was like, yeah, never even knew 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.040 what it was. Never they did it well, I never 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.320 knew what it was, never experienced day. I never knew 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.359 where to get it from. Should have Shaya and the 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.280 glads who were now who used to buy cannabis shops 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.000 happened to walk by. He's come over and she's like, 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.320 can you get this gage? You litter get gave But 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.560 he put me into the right direction. You know. I 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:53.399 was trying to do good seas on it and pressed 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:57.080 him and that was that when I drop into his 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.440 flask nothing what they needed. I was watching them smoking 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.920 and yeah, I was on the knee like couturing down 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:08.119 smoking and on this film and was looking on, you know, 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:10.960