1 00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:06,269 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,780 --> 00:00:09,209 Sean Aylmer: Over the weekend, the business world lost one of its 3 00:00:09,210 --> 00:00:12,869 Sean Aylmer: larger than life characters, Harold Mitchell. Mitchell dominated the ad 4 00:00:12,869 --> 00:00:17,129 Sean Aylmer: buying space after founding Mitchell and Partners in 1976. By 5 00:00:17,129 --> 00:00:19,109 Sean Aylmer: the time his sold to Aegis Group for hundreds of 6 00:00:19,109 --> 00:00:21,900 Sean Aylmer: millions of dollars more than a decade ago, his company 7 00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:26,400 Sean Aylmer: was booking 10% of all media advertising in Australia. After 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,519 Sean Aylmer: selling, he remained a constant presence in the industry, as 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,000 Sean Aylmer: well as continuing his passion for philanthropy and the arts. 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,549 Sean Aylmer: He also knew how to generate a headline. One man 11 00:00:35,549 --> 00:00:38,280 Sean Aylmer: who saw that firsthand, his Damon Kitney, columnist for The 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,668 Sean Aylmer: Weekend Australian and the author of The Fortune Tellers, the 13 00:00:41,670 --> 00:00:45,449 Sean Aylmer: stories of some of Australia's greatest business leaders. Damon, welcome back 14 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:46,230 Sean Aylmer: to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:46,769 --> 00:00:47,340 Damon Kitney: Thanks, Sean. 16 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,370 Sean Aylmer: Harold Mitchell, you interviewed him a number of times over 17 00:00:50,370 --> 00:00:53,249 Sean Aylmer: the years. What was he like in person? Because certainly 18 00:00:53,699 --> 00:00:55,830 Sean Aylmer: we heard lots about him. For those of us who 19 00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:57,420 Sean Aylmer: didn't know him, what was he really like? 20 00:00:58,620 --> 00:01:04,230 Damon Kitney: Yeah, I would say, Sean, a very enigmatic character and 21 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:08,369 Damon Kitney: also larger than life. And unfortunately in Harold's early years, 22 00:01:08,370 --> 00:01:10,919 Damon Kitney: and you can look up the photos, he was literally 23 00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:17,940 Damon Kitney: larger than life. He had a major weight issue during 24 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:21,569 Damon Kitney: his media buying supreme days, you would say. And he 25 00:01:21,569 --> 00:01:23,729 Damon Kitney: went very publicly on the record to say that he 26 00:01:23,730 --> 00:01:28,230 Damon Kitney: had gas band surgery or however you describe that. And 27 00:01:28,529 --> 00:01:32,580 Damon Kitney: yeah, he just looked a completely different person. Also, Harold 28 00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:36,569 Damon Kitney: was very public in talking about his battles with alcohol 29 00:01:36,569 --> 00:01:39,630 Damon Kitney: and basically giving it up for good. And he founded 30 00:01:39,630 --> 00:01:44,160 Damon Kitney: a charity which now deals with particularly young people with 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,340 Damon Kitney: alcohol issues. So Harold was always very open about his 32 00:01:47,340 --> 00:01:50,910 Damon Kitney: health. As a business person, as they say, he's an 33 00:01:50,910 --> 00:01:55,170 Damon Kitney: advertising legend, probably one of the most gifted people in 34 00:01:55,170 --> 00:01:56,940 Damon Kitney: terms of the gift of the gab that I've ever 35 00:01:57,690 --> 00:02:03,450 Damon Kitney: dealt with. Harold always had an answer for everything and 36 00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:09,388 Damon Kitney: often would talk verbatim about all that he was doing 37 00:02:09,690 --> 00:02:13,140 Damon Kitney: and just a consummate deal maker, I guess you would 38 00:02:13,530 --> 00:02:15,660 Damon Kitney: say. If you look at what Harold did over the 39 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:18,990 Damon Kitney: years and the relationships that he forged, that gift of 40 00:02:18,990 --> 00:02:23,490 Damon Kitney: the gab got him some amazing transactions for his media 41 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:26,639 Damon Kitney: buying firm. And then that extended into other parts of 42 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,940 Damon Kitney: his life later where he was on the Crown Board 43 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:34,620 Damon Kitney: for a number of years. He did major transactions around 44 00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:38,370 Damon Kitney: sport and with Kerry Stokes at Channel Seven, who was 45 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:41,038 Damon Kitney: one of the first out on Sunday afternoon to Lord 46 00:02:41,038 --> 00:02:44,490 Damon Kitney: Harold. They were very close. So look, he was just 47 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:50,790 Damon Kitney: one of a kind. And in terms of me personally, he would always take your phone 48 00:02:50,790 --> 00:02:54,988 Damon Kitney: call, always call you back, even through the most difficult 49 00:02:54,990 --> 00:02:58,049 Damon Kitney: days of Crown when you were desperate for Harold to 50 00:02:58,049 --> 00:03:02,790 Damon Kitney: call you back, he would always do that. Unfortunately, at 51 00:03:02,790 --> 00:03:04,830 Damon Kitney: those moments, he would not tell you anything, which was 52 00:03:04,830 --> 00:03:08,190 Damon Kitney: also a testament to him. He didn't leak, unlike some 53 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:11,670 Damon Kitney: others. So he was always very proper, I guess is 54 00:03:11,940 --> 00:03:14,250 Damon Kitney: the word. I know he's been criticized in some circles 55 00:03:14,250 --> 00:03:16,799 Damon Kitney: on that and had some tangles of regulators, but certainly 56 00:03:16,799 --> 00:03:19,830 Damon Kitney: in my experience, a very proper businessman too. 57 00:03:20,940 --> 00:03:23,160 Sean Aylmer: He was kind of one of the last of a 58 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,340 Sean Aylmer: generation of the cult of the CEO. So there were 59 00:03:26,340 --> 00:03:30,900 Sean Aylmer: people like Lindsay Fox, there was Harold Mitchell, there was 60 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:33,120 Sean Aylmer: John Singleton, is probably another one you can throw into 61 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:39,600 Sean Aylmer: that category. Older gentlemen now, but really built their businesses 62 00:03:39,660 --> 00:03:44,250 Sean Aylmer: around themselves. All those three people were owner builders, so 63 00:03:44,250 --> 00:03:47,849 Sean Aylmer: to speak in terms of the business world. Is that 64 00:03:47,849 --> 00:03:51,510 Sean Aylmer: still around? Are we seeing that cult of the CEO 65 00:03:51,540 --> 00:03:54,600 Sean Aylmer: like we did in the '70s, '80s, '90s? John Elliot, of course, 66 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,180 Sean Aylmer: was the great one, the great Melbourne identity on that, 67 00:03:57,180 --> 00:03:59,070 Sean Aylmer: but we just don't seem to have that as much anymore. 68 00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:02,970 Damon Kitney: No, and I think to be honest, investors have lost 69 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:06,630 Damon Kitney: patience with the cult of the CEO. And when you 70 00:04:06,630 --> 00:04:08,700 Damon Kitney: do see it now, and a couple of those names 71 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:12,000 Damon Kitney: you mentioned, they're usually in private business, they're not in 72 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,620 Damon Kitney: public company markets, and I think obviously there's been some 73 00:04:16,620 --> 00:04:22,198 Damon Kitney: wonderful cult figures as CEOs of public companies over time. 74 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,559 Damon Kitney: You mentioned a few, but I think investors now see 75 00:04:25,559 --> 00:04:29,698 Damon Kitney: through hubris a lot quicker than they did in the 76 00:04:29,699 --> 00:04:34,170 Damon Kitney: past because there's just so much scrutiny now from every 77 00:04:34,170 --> 00:04:38,999 Damon Kitney: edge through social media and media everywhere of public company 78 00:04:38,999 --> 00:04:42,509 Damon Kitney: CEOs. And I actually find that there's been an increase 79 00:04:42,509 --> 00:04:47,070 Damon Kitney: too in the public relations industry that surrounds the public 80 00:04:47,070 --> 00:04:53,760 Damon Kitney: markets, which has really sanitized, I think leadership and that 81 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,839 Damon Kitney: sort of cult of personality probably wouldn't survive the public 82 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,808 Damon Kitney: relations scrutiny and regime that's now in place with a 83 00:05:00,809 --> 00:05:05,039 Damon Kitney: lot of these businesses. It's all about focusing on obviously 84 00:05:05,039 --> 00:05:09,420 Damon Kitney: the shareholders, but also stakeholders is the bigger question. So 85 00:05:09,750 --> 00:05:14,339 Damon Kitney: that's about bringing in the community and particularly around the 86 00:05:14,339 --> 00:05:19,440 Damon Kitney: environmental, social and governance issues, famous ESG. So that's really 87 00:05:19,589 --> 00:05:23,279 Damon Kitney: taken away from, I guess, the concentration on the personality 88 00:05:23,850 --> 00:05:26,610 Damon Kitney: that we saw previously. And that's at the end of 89 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:28,469 Damon Kitney: the day, I think if you ask some of the 90 00:05:28,470 --> 00:05:30,930 Damon Kitney: big investors, that's not a bad thing. We all have 91 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:34,500 Damon Kitney: super in these companies, and I think the focus on 92 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:37,589 Damon Kitney: performance, the focus on stakeholders has been to the benefit 93 00:05:37,589 --> 00:05:41,249 Damon Kitney: of us as investors through our super compared to the 94 00:05:41,250 --> 00:05:44,970 Damon Kitney: past. I mean, the last great cult of personality, CEO 95 00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:48,360 Damon Kitney: that I dealt with was Wal King, who ran a 96 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,479 Damon Kitney: company called Leighton Holdings, and that was the ultimate cult 97 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,700 Damon Kitney: of personality. Like, Wal- 98 00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:56,009 Sean Aylmer: For good and bad, Damon. For good and bad. 99 00:05:56,009 --> 00:05:59,938 Damon Kitney: True. True. And unfortunately, Leighton is no longer with us. 100 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,650 Damon Kitney: It's now morphed into a company called CIMIC. It's owned by the 101 00:06:04,650 --> 00:06:09,059 Damon Kitney: Spanish, it's still a public company, but it's majority owned 102 00:06:09,059 --> 00:06:12,540 Damon Kitney: offshore. And unfortunately, and Wal will acknowledge, I think the 103 00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:15,900 Damon Kitney: cult of personality in that company, the key man risk 104 00:06:16,109 --> 00:06:19,319 Damon Kitney: basically in the end was the dismantling of Leighton. And 105 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,830 Damon Kitney: that can be the negative part of the cult of 106 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:24,720 Damon Kitney: personality story for a CEO. 107 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,240 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Damon. We'll be back in a minute. 108 00:06:33,450 --> 00:06:35,878 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Damon Kitney, columnist for The 109 00:06:35,879 --> 00:06:40,920 Sean Aylmer: Weekend Australian and the author of The Fortune Tellers. What 110 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,800 Sean Aylmer: about Alan Joyce at Qantas? Because he's not far off 111 00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:48,178 Sean Aylmer: a sort of cultish... Until the end there. Obviously it 112 00:06:48,178 --> 00:06:50,219 Sean Aylmer: went bad for him, but he's predecessor, a guy called 113 00:06:50,219 --> 00:06:54,269 Sean Aylmer: Geoff Dixon, very similar. He certainly worked media very well. 114 00:06:54,570 --> 00:06:58,738 Sean Aylmer: So in airlines it seemed to attract people like that, 115 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:01,049 Sean Aylmer: or maybe that's just how they run their business. Now, 116 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,450 Sean Aylmer: I'm guessing Vanessa Hudson's not going to be like that, 117 00:07:03,599 --> 00:07:05,159 Sean Aylmer: but where does Alan Joyce fit into this? 118 00:07:06,599 --> 00:07:09,599 Damon Kitney: Yeah, I mean, Alan was a bit like Harold Mitchell 119 00:07:09,599 --> 00:07:15,060 Damon Kitney: an enigma really, because famously a gay Irish guy comes 120 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:17,940 Damon Kitney: to you and takes probably the biggest brand in the 121 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:24,180 Damon Kitney: country and builds it up into a bulletproof machine, essentially. 122 00:07:24,929 --> 00:07:29,189 Damon Kitney: But then they encounter the COVID pandemic, and obviously all 123 00:07:29,190 --> 00:07:33,540 Damon Kitney: airlines went through a disastrous period there. At the end 124 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:36,660 Damon Kitney: of the day, if COVID hadn't have happened, Alan probably 125 00:07:36,660 --> 00:07:40,530 Damon Kitney: would've stepped down earlier. He's always claimed publicly that he 126 00:07:40,889 --> 00:07:44,700 Damon Kitney: stayed on to see the airline through that period. And 127 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:48,719 Damon Kitney: unfortunately, like in politics and in sport, you can outlive 128 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,950 Damon Kitney: your days. And unfortunately, I think for Alan, the last 129 00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:55,140 Damon Kitney: period of his reign really turned into one of a 130 00:07:55,140 --> 00:07:59,340 Damon Kitney: bit of hubris. I still am amazed to this day 131 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,109 Damon Kitney: about the share sales transactions that happened, the fact that 132 00:08:04,109 --> 00:08:05,909 Damon Kitney: they were approved, and that was really the beginning of 133 00:08:05,910 --> 00:08:09,930 Damon Kitney: the end for Alan. But look, Sean, I know Alan 134 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:14,760 Damon Kitney: Joyce pretty well, and I admired amazingly what he built, 135 00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:20,820 Damon Kitney: the resilience he showed, a very charming character, intellectually gifted, 136 00:08:21,330 --> 00:08:26,760 Damon Kitney: built amazing relationships, but unfortunately, there was a streak of 137 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,570 Damon Kitney: Alan, nothing against him being Irish, but he did have 138 00:08:30,570 --> 00:08:33,840 Damon Kitney: a bit of a temper sometimes and- 139 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,000 Sean Aylmer: The crack or something like that. 140 00:08:36,270 --> 00:08:40,978 Damon Kitney: Yeah. And unfortunately, look, the thing you admire about Alan 141 00:08:40,980 --> 00:08:44,400 Damon Kitney: is he's an emotional guy. That's what helped him build 142 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,550 Damon Kitney: the business. But unfortunately, when things go bad and emotion 143 00:08:47,550 --> 00:08:53,040 Damon Kitney: takes over, you see what happens. So yeah, he could 144 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,969 Damon Kitney: well be the last great cult of personality CEO that 145 00:08:56,969 --> 00:09:00,359 Damon Kitney: we see in this country in public markets. The private 146 00:09:00,359 --> 00:09:01,650 Damon Kitney: markets are different. They're still there. 147 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:04,800 Sean Aylmer: So I'm going to alter that a little bit in 148 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,950 Sean Aylmer: public because we still do have some CEOs, so Greg 149 00:09:07,950 --> 00:09:13,049 Sean Aylmer: Goodman running Goodman Group, Richard White running WiseTech Global, but 150 00:09:13,049 --> 00:09:15,990 Sean Aylmer: they certainly don't try and find the limelights like some 151 00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:19,290 Sean Aylmer: of these other guys. But I'm assuming investors and employees 152 00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:22,410 Sean Aylmer: are very keen on Greg Goodman running Goodman Group and 153 00:09:22,410 --> 00:09:24,120 Sean Aylmer: Richard White running WiseTech Global. 154 00:09:24,660 --> 00:09:26,880 Damon Kitney: And you can say the same for Kerry Stokes of 155 00:09:27,030 --> 00:09:32,009 Damon Kitney: Seven West. And the same for Gerry Harvey at Harvey 156 00:09:32,009 --> 00:09:34,590 Damon Kitney: Norman. I mean, yeah, you're right, there are still a 157 00:09:34,590 --> 00:09:38,640 Damon Kitney: few in the public markets. Those, certainly, Jerry Harvey's not 158 00:09:38,850 --> 00:09:43,199 Damon Kitney: shy of publicity, but I think, look, there's research that's 159 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,439 Damon Kitney: been done, Sean, over the years where studies have been 160 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,990 Damon Kitney: done on a owner, founder led companies, and at the 161 00:09:48,990 --> 00:09:51,599 Damon Kitney: end of the day, they tend to outperform over the 162 00:09:52,708 --> 00:09:55,710 Damon Kitney: longer term, and that's a difference from the Alan Joyce, 163 00:09:55,830 --> 00:10:01,679 Damon Kitney: Wal King scenario because they're executives, not owners and founders. 164 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,830 Damon Kitney: So there's a key difference, I guess, between that sort 165 00:10:04,830 --> 00:10:07,950 Damon Kitney: of owner (inaudible) onset that you see in players 166 00:10:07,950 --> 00:10:11,039 Damon Kitney: now like Richard White and Greg Goodman, as you said, 167 00:10:11,039 --> 00:10:15,300 Damon Kitney: versus us to use the term celebrity CEO. I think 168 00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:19,260 Damon Kitney: that's the key distinction that should be made. But as 169 00:10:19,260 --> 00:10:22,950 Damon Kitney: the Crown experience has shown with James Packer and the 170 00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:26,729 Damon Kitney: difficulties of that firm, it doesn't always work out for 171 00:10:26,730 --> 00:10:30,358 Damon Kitney: the best, although Packer would very clearly say that he 172 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,510 Damon Kitney: created a lot of shareholder value over his time as 173 00:10:33,510 --> 00:10:35,790 Damon Kitney: the major shareholder of Crown, and that is correct. 174 00:10:36,330 --> 00:10:41,010 Sean Aylmer: As a biographer of Packer, Damon, this segues nicely into 175 00:10:41,010 --> 00:10:44,130 Sean Aylmer: your new book, The Fortune Tellers. So the stories of 176 00:10:44,130 --> 00:10:46,919 Sean Aylmer: sum of Australia's greatest business leaders. In 30 seconds, give 177 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:48,060 Sean Aylmer: us a rundown of what it's about. 178 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:54,780 Damon Kitney: 30 seconds. Gee. Well, look, it's really just a collection, 179 00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:57,718 Damon Kitney: I guess, of the work that I've done in The 180 00:10:57,719 --> 00:11:01,529 Damon Kitney: Weekend Australian and a couple of other outlets over recent 181 00:11:01,530 --> 00:11:05,520 Damon Kitney: years. There are a couple of stories from my further 182 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,710 Damon Kitney: past when I worked with you at the AFR, Sean. 183 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:11,939 Damon Kitney: But really it's a story of celebrating stories of success, 184 00:11:11,940 --> 00:11:14,670 Damon Kitney: and that's what the title is. And all these stories 185 00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:17,879 Damon Kitney: are very human stories, many that haven't been told before 186 00:11:18,270 --> 00:11:22,409 Damon Kitney: of people who have gone through amazing challenges in their 187 00:11:22,410 --> 00:11:26,340 Damon Kitney: life and have succeeded in business. And I hope people that buy it 188 00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:30,660 Damon Kitney: will really learn from the stories that are told in 189 00:11:30,660 --> 00:11:32,759 Damon Kitney: the book. And as I said, some of them have 190 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,238 Damon Kitney: only told their story for the only time in the 191 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,929 Damon Kitney: book. So yeah, hopefully people will learn from it. 192 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,660 Sean Aylmer: I look forward to reading it. Damon, thank you for 193 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:43,828 Sean Aylmer: talking to Fear and Greed. 194 00:11:44,309 --> 00:11:45,360 Damon Kitney: Pleasure, Sean. Thanks. 195 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:48,660 Sean Aylmer: That was Damon Kitney, columnist for The Weekend Australian and 196 00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:51,389 Sean Aylmer: the author of The Fortune Tellers. This is The Fear 197 00:11:51,389 --> 00:11:53,580 Sean Aylmer: and Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning for the 198 00:11:53,580 --> 00:11:56,909 Sean Aylmer: full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's best business podcast. 199 00:11:56,910 --> 00:11:58,709 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.