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Speaker 1: My mate who I lost, like we used to make

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Speaker 1: so much stuff together. Man, like just one of the

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Speaker 1: most wickedly creative dudes I've ever met, Just such a

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Speaker 1: freaking brilliant guy. And I realized when I had access

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Speaker 1: to that creative state up there while I was drawing,

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Speaker 1: that it was almost as if he was still there,

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Speaker 1: because there was a timelessness to that feeling, to that mindset,

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Speaker 1: and I was there with him even though he wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: And I think, to answer your question, those tiny little

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Speaker 1: seeds were the fact that sometimes time isn't linear. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: the memories are not in photographs but in your mental states,

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Speaker 1: you know. And when I got into that creative state,

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Speaker 1: there it was, and those tiny seeds planted and I

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Speaker 1: kept drawing.

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Speaker 2: Good thanks for listening to the show This is Better

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Speaker 2: than Yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations helping make your

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Speaker 2: that today better than yesterday. Every week seey thirteen. My

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Speaker 2: name's Osha Ginzburg, and I've got a question for you.

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Speaker 2: What are the opposite of self destruction? Well, according to

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Speaker 2: my guest today, it's a single word. It's a concept.

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Speaker 2: It's an impulse, one that can lift us out of

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Speaker 2: feeling hopeless, doomed, and up into optimism and growth, something

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Speaker 2: we're familiar with, but many of us still kind of

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Speaker 2: have a misunderstanding about it, especially in the way that

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Speaker 2: my guest wants to think about it. What is the

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Speaker 2: opposite of self destruction? Campbell Walker aka Struthless has an

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Speaker 2: answer for you and a lot more right after this,

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Speaker 2: before we get to camp, I just wanted to say,

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Speaker 2: come along. It's to the next story Club show. You

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Speaker 2: can find the link in the show notes story club

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Speaker 2: life dot com, and you can also buy any book

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Speaker 2: that I've written at the link in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: One of those books involves my guest today, a very

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Speaker 2: creative person, a man who I just adore, adore working with.

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Speaker 2: Because if you're curious about being creative, this is an

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Speaker 2: episode that you're going to listen to. If not, it's

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Speaker 2: still an episode for you because I guess today might

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Speaker 2: convince you why, well, you actually are creative, and you

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Speaker 2: may want to pursue that as a practice. My guest

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Speaker 2: today is Cam Walker, also known as Struthless. He is

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Speaker 2: an author, an illustrator, and a creative Some of the

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Speaker 2: most thoughtful and useful ideas and you hesitate to use

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Speaker 2: the word content, but I'm going to call it art,

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Speaker 2: thoughtful and useful art in the space of getting your

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Speaker 2: head straight that I have found.

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Speaker 1: I've loved his work forever.

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Speaker 2: I reached out to him to ask him to come

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Speaker 2: work on my first live show a couple of years back,

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Speaker 2: and we've known each other since.

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Speaker 1: He's an amazing guy.

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Speaker 2: Now, if you are a follower of the show, if

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Speaker 2: you listen to the show before, you'll have heard the

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Speaker 2: end bit of this conversation already, because we do talk

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Speaker 2: about working on my new book, So what now? What

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Speaker 2: we worked on that together? You can get that link

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Speaker 2: in the show notes. But that's just a little bit,

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Speaker 2: the very end bit of this conversation because in the

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Speaker 2: same year that he worked on my book, Cam was

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Speaker 2: at the same time finishing off his book, a brand

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Speaker 2: new book called Doom and Bloom. It's his second book,

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Speaker 2: and it is such an amazing read. It's a book

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Speaker 2: that meets you at your lowest and slowly, slowly shows

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Speaker 2: you the path to somewhere rich, colorful, blooming with life. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: a lot of it informed by Cam's own personal experience,

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Speaker 2: and all of it expressed in his own wonderful style.

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Speaker 2: The way he writes, the way he illustrates, it's just magnificent.

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Speaker 2: In this conversation, Cam does talk all about the book

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Speaker 2: its origins, including what he did at his lowest, the

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Speaker 2: pitfalls he found in common with and self help troopes,

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Speaker 2: how he does wrestle with his social media use, and

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Speaker 2: things that have kept his long term relationships steady.

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Speaker 1: Also ways to find meaning in life. Just a little stuff,

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Speaker 1: but also so much more.

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Speaker 2: But of course, you know, because we're two guys and

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Speaker 2: this is a podcast, we're contractually obligated to talk about AI,

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Speaker 2: so we start with that. Enjoy this conversation with Cam

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Speaker 2: Walk or follow him everywhere you can buy his books.

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Speaker 1: Let's go.

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Speaker 2: You're the first person that ever played with generative AI

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Speaker 2: that I know of. Remember, you're sending me screenshots of

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Speaker 2: early Dahali stuff. Yeah, and you're going, this is nats,

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Speaker 2: this is going to blow. This is like five years

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Speaker 2: ago or.

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Speaker 1: Something called it. All right, should we do it?

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Speaker 2: So even we've already started, so all the tattoos, don't

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Speaker 2: let the tattoos for you?

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Speaker 1: When did you realize you were a nerd camp? Right now?

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Speaker 1: This is an intervention. Now, when did I realize I

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Speaker 1: was a nerd ah pretty frickin' early, my guy. You know,

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Speaker 1: you just tell what you are. My settings came out nerdy,

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Speaker 1: calling them settings is nerdy.

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Speaker 2: I like it though, But at what point like that,

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Speaker 2: we were just chatting about Dhali, which is da L

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Speaker 2: L hype and E not now called crayon, is called

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Speaker 2: crayon now as well.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, okay, so I mean this is kind of irrelevant,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, that early version of Dhali was Dari Mini

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Speaker 1: and it was based off the people who made that

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Speaker 1: had nothing to do with open Ai and their product

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Speaker 1: is dhal E and they just called it Dali Mini

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Speaker 1: just to capitalize on the press release a right, and

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Speaker 1: then sam Oldtman et al. Said, Hey, you can't do that,

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Speaker 1: but this is pretty cool and I guess it is

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Speaker 1: building a hype for us, So they called it crayon

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Speaker 1: with AI in the middle. But it was kind of

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Speaker 1: doing what you would do.

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Speaker 2: You know, you would send out these videos of drawing

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Speaker 2: his Bart Simpson in twenty different styles. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 2: you were typing those prompts into it, going give me

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Speaker 2: Bart Simpson as if it was the cover of a

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Speaker 2: DNA Kun's novel, and out it would pop.

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Speaker 1: But you were doing that shit freehand analog.

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Speaker 2: How did it feel to see how very quickly it

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Speaker 2: was able to do something that was kind of well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I see where this is going.

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Speaker 1: Like magic. It was like magic. Yeah, but it's like

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Speaker 1: any of that technology where at first it feels like

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Speaker 1: that and you can get blinded by all of the

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Speaker 1: cool possibilities before you remember it. Remember that the people

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Speaker 1: on the other side of humans, and that humans tend to,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, take things and just turn them into

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Speaker 1: freaking slop. So I don't know. Yeah, this is like

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Speaker 1: really interesting and there are some incredible implications of it

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Speaker 1: and oh cool one hundred marketing emails. Yeah, great, guys, great.

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Speaker 2: It's one of those things that if social media was,

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Speaker 2: you know, the invention of cars, this is the invention

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Speaker 2: of super highways and no seat belts and like we're

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Speaker 2: still in that phase. We're still in We could drive

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Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty k's an hour.

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Speaker 1: This is amazing.

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Speaker 2: People are dying, maimed, getting destroyed, getting killed to pieces. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but we can get from here to there real fast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, faster than we could before. Yes, it is better

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Speaker 1: than a horse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but everyone's like, yeah, oh, did you notice quickly

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Speaker 2: I got here.

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Speaker 1: They died real quick too. That was efficient. Yeah, fucking

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Speaker 1: smashed them.

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Speaker 2: But it took until Sometimes talk about it, like the

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Speaker 2: first car, Togo one hundred kilometers now was electric, was

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Speaker 2: in nineteen twelve and I.

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Speaker 1: Was in Mercedes WHOA.

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Speaker 2: The first seat belt to be mandated was in Victoria

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Speaker 2: in Australia in nineteen seventy three.

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Speaker 1: That's a bit of a gap. How many thousands of

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Speaker 1: people were killed and maimed, are destroyed and lives ruined

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Speaker 1: before that came in.

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Speaker 2: I think we are now in the super highway no

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Speaker 2: seat belt drink driving.

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Speaker 1: What phase of LM's that's super interesting. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've ever read any most stuff for Sulimon. He's

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Speaker 1: the guy who created who more or less created a

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Speaker 1: deep mind Google, I know the name, yeah yeah, which

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Speaker 1: still ended up acquiring whatever. But yeah. He put out

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Speaker 1: a book which I don't know it. Some parts of

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Speaker 1: it are alarmists, but a lot of it is here's

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Speaker 1: a man who knows exactly what he's talking about. It's

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Speaker 1: called the Coming Wave, and it's all about AI and

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Speaker 1: what he thinks the appropriate measures to it should be.

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Speaker 1: And more or less he argues for like stronger government regulation,

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Speaker 1: but that feels like a reductive take on it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we could soon a de electrofoier city that take

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Speaker 2: it away.

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Speaker 1: It's here. Yeah, and there's no bottle. There's just a tull. Genie.

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Speaker 2: Oh this is I'm so stoked you came on the

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Speaker 2: show today. Last time we spoke on this podcast, we

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Speaker 2: alluded to the fact that we needed to speak about

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Speaker 2: the time we accidentally had a double date. So don't

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Speaker 2: let me forget to do that.

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Speaker 1: Cool. Well, Chekhov's gone that again. We will get to that.

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Speaker 2: But you're here because some pretty interesting things have been

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Speaker 2: happening in the world of cam Walker aka is Truthless,

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Speaker 2: not only in the video world, but also in the

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Speaker 2: published world. You have another magnificent book, Head Your Head

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Speaker 2: Is a Houseboat was amazing, and the second one, Doom

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Speaker 2: and Bloom.

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Speaker 1: You sent it to me. You sent me a pdf.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like October November something maybe, but before that,

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Speaker 2: but I saw an early version of it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, fuck, man, this is amazing.

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Speaker 2: Oh sweet, oh cool, Because I mean, I'm no word

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Speaker 2: of lie when I wrote the thing for the Head

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Speaker 2: as a Houseboat. It's the way that you're communicating these

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Speaker 2: mental health ideas to people is so accessible and you've

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Speaker 2: done it again.

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Speaker 1: Why is it so important for you to do that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff? I really appreciate you firstly, like giving

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Speaker 1: me those words. I know exactly where I was. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those cool memories that I have. I think,

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Speaker 1: like when you put in so much work into a book,

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Speaker 1: you have this sort of unanswered question, this unclosed loop,

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Speaker 1: And for me it was will people understand this? Which

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Speaker 1: I don't know, that's a little bit basic, but like

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Speaker 1: that was it. And then you caught me up and

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Speaker 1: not only closed that loop, like you drew a few

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Speaker 1: more around it, and I was like, okay, sweet, all right,

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Speaker 1: people will understand and like it.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't just me like people love Yeah, they

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Speaker 2: say messaging has been coming out in videos and stuff

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Speaker 2: all year.

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Speaker 1: People are all over it, which which is really neat

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Speaker 1: out as your question though, why is it important to

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Speaker 1: communicate these things excessively? Is that what you're asking? Why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it be? It's absolutely everything? And I mean you

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Speaker 1: can get lost in the source of you know, what

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Speaker 1: do you call it? Like big academic papers who have

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Speaker 1: titles the length of paragraphs and you can get lost

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Speaker 1: in the source of like condescending self help podcasts, you

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Speaker 1: know that say things like inenil exhale, and sometimes both

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Speaker 1: of those things work and sometimes they don't. But I've

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Speaker 1: always found that there is so much merit in trying

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Speaker 1: to like secure right in the middle and just like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, cut out the bullshit and just call

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Speaker 1: spade a spade sometimes. I mean, in this book particularly,

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Speaker 1: there's a few times that it talks about what I

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Speaker 1: think of self help cropes that don't work definitely, and.

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Speaker 2: Some that in your if you had to say it,

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Speaker 2: what are some self help cliche tropes that you see

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Speaker 2: a white people might not realize they're looking at them

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Speaker 2: or reading them because it all comes across as very sincere.

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Speaker 1: Here, I am.

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Speaker 2: Telling you that if you did just this one thing today,

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Speaker 2: everything would be amazing, because if the right tone of

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Speaker 2: voice and the right graphics, you know, with only a

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Speaker 2: thousand burpies, you can achieve happiness. So what are some

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Speaker 2: tropes that you have seen that you're like, you know what,

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Speaker 2: let's just pump the brakes on this a bit, because

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Speaker 2: everyone's just trying to help, but they might not be

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Speaker 2: being helpful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd say sometimes the bar is set pretty high

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Speaker 1: for the amount of mental gymnastics that it asks people

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Speaker 1: to do. So like one day, you'll see a lot

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Speaker 1: and I sort of mentioned it in this is I

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Speaker 1: don't know, people will bring up an absolutely exceptional person

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Speaker 1: like call it. You know, Victor Frankel was able to

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Speaker 1: recontextualize things in a you know, in Auschwitz, or like

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Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela was able to you know, turn twenty seven

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Speaker 1: years of imprisonment into you know, basically abolishing apartheid. That's

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Speaker 1: really really inspiring. And the message that you can get

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Speaker 1: from that is it doesn't matter about your surroundings, it

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Speaker 1: matters what you make it mean. That's true. That's true. However,

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Speaker 1: there is also a lot of merit in assuming that

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Speaker 1: you are not Victor Frankel or Nelson Mandela, assuming that

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Speaker 1: you are average, and assuming that you were having a

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Speaker 1: really really hard day. And so when I think about

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Speaker 1: that message, it becomes you don't control your surroundings. You

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Speaker 1: do control how they mean. But also it's really really

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Speaker 1: really hard, and don't beat yourself up if you're not

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Speaker 1: getting it on the first try. It's the third part, yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: it's the third part. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, knowing full well that I asked you to do

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Speaker 2: a visual reference towards Victor Frankel in the book that

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Speaker 2: I just asked you.

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Speaker 1: Perfect yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: to your credit, like that wasn't the whole book. That

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Speaker 1: was like one point of the book, and the next

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Speaker 1: thing if you read that, we've read a book together.

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Speaker 1: The next thing if you read that is the counter

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Speaker 1: argument immediately afterwards. So it's not like you just did

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Speaker 1: it in your own which is kind of almost why

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Speaker 1: you bring it up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's just the kind of thing that I'm

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Speaker 2: lucky in that I'm on the other side of that

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Speaker 2: kind of big pop moment. What you have when you realize,

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Speaker 2: I hang on, stuff just happens. Things don't happen for

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Speaker 2: a reason. Things just happen. I give it the reason.

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Speaker 2: Oh shit, you know you have this moment? Yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's tricky. The you're not a stranger to

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Speaker 2: a great metaphor. There's a couple of really good ones

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Speaker 2: in this. I love the gardening, which we'll get to.

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Speaker 2: But doom and bloom, let's let's define it for a bit.

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Speaker 2: What is the doom and what is the bloom?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So I mean, like the whole book

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Speaker 1: basically takes you from doom to bloom. I think, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Pretty strong belief of mine is if you

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Speaker 1: are going to talk about the things that you can do,

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Speaker 1: it's probably good to meet you at the level that

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Speaker 1: you're at on the bad days, you know, not the

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Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela days. So yeah, it starts in the trenches

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Speaker 1: of hell metaphorically, which is a metaphor for how you

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Speaker 1: might be feeling. You're even right, like Swiss, it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty bad place to start a book. Yeah, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: I'll put a big thing at the top. It's important

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Speaker 1: to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, we've clearly both experienced these kind of thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I hate to say it, but are thoughts that are

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Speaker 2: more common than a lot of people realize. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: it's important to talk about them.

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Speaker 1: Why did you start that way? If you're going to

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Speaker 1: write about suicide, what's the right time to bring it up?

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Speaker 1: That's the question, Like, am I gonna reveal it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Why would I do that? That feels almost worse. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course I made that the first sentence of the

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Speaker 1: book because it's like, this is what you're getting into

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Speaker 1: and this is also life, and it's like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: don't look away. You don't have to because there is

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Speaker 1: more to come. Yeah, And that's sort of why I

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Speaker 1: started it with there, because there's a whole book that

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Speaker 1: comes after suicidal ideation. In terms of the actual theme

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Speaker 1: of the book, it was because I was, I guess,

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Speaker 1: seeing suicide through the lens of self destruction and struction

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Speaker 1: being the opposite of creativity. Not creativity like the arts,

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Speaker 1: but like creativity like actually just creating something or generating

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Speaker 1: something or whatever it happens to be building. I wrestled

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Speaker 1: with that first line for a while because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just a placeholder, and then I don't know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes the placeholders stick. I thought I was going to

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Speaker 1: get told off. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when you talk about creativity, as you mentioned, it's

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Speaker 2: not autistic creativity, and it's often conflated with you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing color by numbers or I'm doing a mindful

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Speaker 2: coloring in book, or I'm making a pottery thing, or I'm.

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Speaker 1: Making some shit with a lego.

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Speaker 2: Creativity doesn't really have to be anything like that at all,

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Speaker 2: does it.

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Speaker 1: No. I mean it can be, but I think in

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Speaker 1: the book, I say it it's like seeing those like

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Speaker 1: highly specific executions as creativity is like seeing a bicycle

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Speaker 1: as to transport. It's like you might not like riding

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Speaker 1: the bike, but everybody's got somewhere to go, you know,

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Speaker 1: everybody's got something that they can do, that can and

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Speaker 1: trade the time that is always ticking down for something

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Speaker 1: that they can leave the world with. There's a beautiful

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Lewis lyric in that song time Trade, whereas like

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Speaker 1: time is going to take so much away, but there's

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Speaker 1: a way that time can offer you a trade it

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Speaker 1: could be. And that's kind of how I see creativity.

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Speaker 1: It's like you are constantly losing this thing. You're losing

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Speaker 1: your life, you know, just by virtue of it ticking away.

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Speaker 1: But but you trade it. You make stuff, You make babies,

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Speaker 1: you make buildings, you make artworks, you make everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's how we can do it. And it's this

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Speaker 1: like beautiful thing that reverses entropy and gives us all meaning.

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Speaker 1: So the idea of creativity would it be.

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Speaker 2: I'm just trying to help people who might think that

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Speaker 2: creativity is because some of us right to Picasso types.

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Speaker 1: Yes, some people.

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Speaker 2: Early on get told you can't draw, you can't paint,

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Speaker 2: you can't sing, you can't dance. Therefore they go through

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Speaker 2: the love thinking I'm not creative. It's like me, I

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Speaker 2: went through my love thinking I'm not good at maths.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually okay at it, but I've been telling myself

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Speaker 2: for so long that I'm bad at it. I haven't tried,

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Speaker 2: so I've never got good at it. So people might

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Speaker 2: be told that I am not very creative person. Just

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Speaker 2: maybe just try kicking a footy or whatever. Would it

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Speaker 2: be okay?

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Speaker 1: Like? Could creativity also be possibility? Is that? Alco? Can

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Speaker 1: that also be the opposite of doom? Absolutely? It's yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean for me, it's taking the question what could

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Speaker 1: go wrong and replacing it with what could go right?

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Speaker 1: And that's more or less how I said. I do

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Speaker 1: agree sadly that Yeah, not even some people, but I

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Speaker 1: would say most people are told there's a version of

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Speaker 1: that limiting belief that you just painted.

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Speaker 2: Man and every one of I'm a big thing, an

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Speaker 2: extreme if you haven't read it as a book by

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Speaker 2: a gy called Keith Johnson, It's called impro It's one

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Speaker 2: of the most extraordinary books. It was the seed of

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Speaker 2: all improv theater and everything like that. It's an incredible

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Speaker 2: teacher that came out of the UK and he has

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Speaker 2: this line going, and it's along the lines of every

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Speaker 2: child can draw, every child can dance, every child can sing.

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Speaker 1: They get told somewhere along the way they can't, and

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Speaker 1: they stop, aw bullshit. All of us can dance, all

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Speaker 1: of us can sing, all of us can draw. We

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Speaker 1: just don't. If we get told along the way we

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Speaker 1: can't do it, we just stop trying. And there's even

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Speaker 1: things that aren't directly telling you that. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: so many societal forces that are like, well, that's silly.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make money, it's not productive, it's not efficient.

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Speaker 1: You're not making any GDP right now, you useless dancer.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh yeah, I forgot joy is illegal.

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Speaker 2: You've talked about the moment, the moment of doom, and

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Speaker 2: it can be really hard, and like everyone can. It's

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Speaker 2: what's so hard about being in those places is they

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Speaker 2: are feel so isolating. They are really isolating, but also

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Speaker 2: feed themselves. Oh absolutely, and you get real really stuck

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Speaker 2: trying to do anything you can to get out of

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Speaker 2: those places. But all that does is get you stuck.

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Speaker 2: What would you say to someone who you know has

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Speaker 2: heard you go, oh, you got out of it? Like,

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Speaker 2: how do you even begin to climb out of those

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Speaker 2: dark places?

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Speaker 1: Firstly, if you are stuck and you're listening to this, firstly,

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Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. I sound condescending and annoying.

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Speaker 1: I sound patronizing, and you have every right to be skeptical.

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Speaker 1: I sound like a conceited dickhead. And you are right.

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Speaker 1: The world is hard, it has been frickin' rough. All

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Speaker 1: of that's true, and the future is still unwritten akay

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Speaker 1: Natasha Bettingfield style. If you're cynical, if you're feeling like

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Speaker 1: the future is all going to go down or going

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Speaker 1: to end up in doom, I think that makes total sense,

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Speaker 1: given that all of the data that we have about

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Speaker 1: the world, or more like the available data that gets

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Speaker 1: to you, not necessarily all of the data, but like

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Speaker 1: all of the data that we're exposed to. And I

399
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Speaker 1: think it also makes sense in terms of, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of security in it. If you prepare

401
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Speaker 1: for the hurricane, it's better to be prepared than not,

402
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Speaker 1: you know, if you err on the side of caution

403
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Speaker 1: when people ask you a thing is going to be good.

404
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Speaker 1: It's better to look you know, cynical and wrong than

405
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Speaker 1: like a privileged, naive dummy. You know. However, oh yes,

406
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Speaker 1: there is always a however a butt in the old English,

407
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 1: in the Kings. I think that this is usually the

408
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 1: moment where the person says, but you can be everything,

409
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, that's true. But I think the there

410
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: is so much merit not in focusing on what you

411
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Speaker 1: can do, but what to stop doing. Do you know

412
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Speaker 1: what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, because it's like, instead of

413
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Speaker 1: just trying to get yourself up to some sort of

414
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Speaker 1: like level of exceptionalism, it's just stopping the things that

415
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 1: are actively making your life worse. Stop going backward, try

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Speaker 1: and get to a point of stability, and then start

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Speaker 1: thinking about things. Because I don't know, you said it

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Speaker 1: to me one tign like the same mind that thought you,

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Speaker 1: we ain't going to think yeah you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to find those things to stop because

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Speaker 2: sometimes those things are so automatic you don't realize they're

422
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Speaker 2: there always.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole curse. Otherwise they would stop. So how

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Speaker 1: do you even begin to know what those things are? Honestly,

425
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 1: it's the bay stuff. It is actually the basic stuff,

426
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Speaker 1: like all the stuff that someone told you that you

427
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 1: rolled your eyes out because you're a teenager. You know.

428
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 1: It's literally the things like waking up on time, is

429
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Speaker 1: things like breathing, getting good exercise, not drinking yourself into

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Speaker 1: a stupor all of the boring stuff, all of the

431
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Speaker 1: un sexy stuff that nobody wants to talk about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: conventional wisdom is there for a reason.

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Speaker 2: Benjamin Xander wrote a book called the Art of Possibility,

434
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 2: and there's a line in there which I really really love.

435
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 2: What choices I'm making that I don't realize i'm making

436
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: that gives me what I see?

437
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh that's cool.

438
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 2: What else could I now invent that would give me

439
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 2: other choices?

440
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: What did you make? That mean? When you're ready?

441
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,479
Speaker 2: I found it to be My ego has a you know,

442
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 2: pre David hasselof Berlin Wall of fence, Like it's a

443
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 2: mangio line pointing in the right direction.

444
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: It won't let me go anywhere.

445
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 2: If you like, No, I am pure, so I have

446
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: to kind of go around the through the kitchen window.

447
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 2: Really I'm gonna go Yeah, but really, like, did you

448
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: really did you really put that much work into it?

449
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 2: Or did you really think about that in advance? You

450
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 2: might have missed that. A bit upset about that? Oh?

451
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 1: Fuck?

452
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 2: You know, I have to kind of ask a kind

453
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: of obtuse question to get around that self defense, which

454
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 2: will snap into place and justify my position.

455
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: What's a good example of an obtuse question that you ask,

456
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 1: I've got he what's my part to play?

457
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah?

458
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, how where's this person? Right? Yeah, they're real upset.

459
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 1: That's that's one that I like, or like whenever I

460
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: have a storch staunch conviction. The one that I like

461
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: is what evidence would change your mind?

462
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very It's very hard that one, because sometimes

463
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, hang, I actually no evidence.

464
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want this. I'm the zealot. Oh gosh,

465
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: oh yes.

466
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: Sir, I actually don't want this to be any Ah.

467
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: I'm defining myself as in opposition to that.

468
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: It's gonna be hard. That's a hard one. But this

469
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: can be done. Yeah, it can be done.

470
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 2: The idea that you mentioned it earlier, you know, being

471
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: in this doom space, being the place where you know,

472
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: finding a permanent solution to a temporary problem seems like

473
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 2: a great idea when you're in that place.

474
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: You can't believe that any other place exists. God No's

475
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: and it doesn't. It doesn't in that moment, but it does, yes,

476
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: make no mistake, it does.

477
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: It does what helps you if you were in those places?

478
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: What helps you understand that this is not going to

479
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: be like this forever?

480
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 1: A lack of stimulation most definitely, Sometimes it feels like

481
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: the next step is even if it is one of

482
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 1: those basic things of just like treating yourself like an

483
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: animal and not like a human, it can like, you know,

484
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: having a shower, or brushing your teeth or whatever it

485
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: happens to be, making your bed, all of the basic stuff,

486
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: it can feel lack. I don't know everest in those moments.

487
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: One thing that I have found that doesn't quite feel

488
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: like everest is literally doing nothing. And you might call

489
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: it meditation, you might call it just going quiet. You

490
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: might call it just like not being on your phone,

491
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. It's the idea of

492
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: just like letting the thoughts do what they need to

493
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: do in a non judgmental fashion. And I don't know,

494
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: I've always found that doing nothing at least allows the

495
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: thoughts almost like a boiling pot of water, on a

496
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: stove that's been turned off, just to get back down

497
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 1: to room temperature before you can start adding on more stuff.

498
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: When the thoughts come past, and I don't know, let's

499
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: say some of those thoughts might be the flinchy kind.

500
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: How do you let those things go past with that judgment,

501
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: Because those kind of little flinchy things, they can either

502
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: send you off the rails or get you mad and

503
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: makes you want to start texting or calling someone.

504
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, my first reaction is to say breeze, because that

505
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: is what I do in those moments like box breathing. Yes,

506
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: once again, Tracy, my therapist was right. But yeah, through

507
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: the nose, hold out, through the mouth, hold doing that

508
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: for twenty times more than you think you can. That

509
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: is always always going to help you. Oxygen will always

510
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 1: be on your side. It is always your friend, except

511
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: if I guess you're on fire.

512
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: Just putting a space in between the thought and the response,

513
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 2: between stimulus and a response to quote somebody that you

514
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: know we mentioned earlier, you shouldn't be quoting.

515
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: Between the stimulus and response kind of knowing we should

516
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: not quote Victim Frankel. I just don't want anyone to

517
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: misinterpret frankals workers like the standard that all humans should

518
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: be at every freaking time.

519
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 2: No. Yeah, he just happened to be the right person

520
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: with the right aptitude in the most horrific place of

521
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: all time and had the capacity to use the skill

522
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 2: set that he had to survive the situation.

523
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: Completely and then was able aware enough about it to

524
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: write it down. Yeah, we're lucky when you speak about

525
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 3: So if creativity is the opposite of the doom part,

526
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: you're right about effortless creativity.

527
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: What does that look like? And why is that something

528
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: that we can that is useful? You know? In the

529
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: song Across the Universe, how you got like the jahgaru

530
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: de von part? What mister Lennon, what he's talking about

531
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: in that? I'm singing Fiona Apple only? Okay, yeah, okay,

532
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: So what Fiona Apples singing about in that moment? Hang on,

533
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: what do you mean John Lennon sang a Fiona Apple song? NNA,

534
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: it's the Danny Boyle movie yesterday. And what they're all

535
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: talking about there is, you know, like getting into this.

536
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to do the Western guy thing of like

537
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: butchering each Eastern philosophy on a podcast, which.

538
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 2: If podcasts existed, Like if Alan Watts was around when

539
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: podcasts were around, don't worry.

540
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: We'd have way more side trans samples. Yeah yeah, we click. Yeah.

541
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: So it's the idea of like having a some sort

542
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: of space that you can tap into, which is above yourself,

543
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: a universal create creative space that you can get into

544
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: and then like from there create everything, sort of like

545
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: me Hijik sent me high his flow, which is probably

546
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: the most westernized version of that. He more or less

547
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: like define that creative status some way that you can

548
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: access that takes away like the inhibitions or the usual

549
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: things that you would be thinking about in your day

550
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: to day, like the usual ruminations, puts them out, and

551
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: it engages you actually with the task in front of you.

552
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 1: There's a handful of things that he says, uh, you know,

553
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: conducive to that, because of course, like a guy who's

554
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: just like an academic about it, is going to try

555
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: and figure out how you can do it, not just

556
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: observe it. And some of them are things like knowing

557
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: what the next step is, not having the tasks broken

558
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: up into too big of a leap each time so

559
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: you don't have to keep asking, oh where am I

560
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: in the project, where am I in the project. That's

561
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I think drawing can be

562
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: so conducive to the flow state, because it's not like you're,

563
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, or coloring in. I mean, I think like

564
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: you say what you will about the coloring entrend, and

565
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: I will say a lot of things about it. But

566
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: the idea of just knowing what to do next is

567
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: a gift. Yeah, we don't like as hum as we

568
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: aren't like not knowing what to do.

569
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: No, And I just want to be clear, like when

570
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 2: you're talking about accessing you know, a universal thought, well,

571
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 2: talking about I'm hearing thoughts from outside of my skull.

572
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: We are simply talking about how do I access the

573
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: part behind all those flinchy thoughts, that where my subconscious

574
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: actually has all this creative input and is able to

575
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 2: flow it out of me. Because that's the real power

576
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: of our brain is the subconscious. It does all the Essentially,

577
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: it's the cloud computing. Is that a subconscious And the

578
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: stuff that we speak is that only the stuff that

579
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: comes up on the screen. There's a lot more going

580
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: on there, but it can be hard to get back there,

581
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 2: and we do need to sometimes manufacture moments.

582
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: Like that and they do come from stillness.

583
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: You talk about I do love the gardening in this,

584
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: I really love I love the gardening in it. I

585
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 2: never was really into gardening, and then I met my wife, Audrey,

586
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: who's from Fiji's got quite the green thumb, and now

587
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in the food that grows in our yard.

588
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: And it's really nice.

589
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: You talk about tiny happy seeds being planted in the soul. Yeah,

590
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: talk to me about like, was there something, there's a

591
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: moment that that happened to you when you realize, oh,

592
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: this is.

593
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: What it is. Yeah, most definitely it was pretty. It's

594
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: actually got kicked off the whole book. But one of

595
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: my yeah, our best friends, I've got a call one

596
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: night and yeah, his brother had said a few hours

597
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: ago he committed suicide. Yeah, and it's one of those

598
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: you get those phone calls in life and you just

599
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: don't forget them. You're like reality shatters and you can't

600
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: you can't do anything. Yeah, that week he asked me,

601
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: the brother asked me to draw some artwork for the funeral,

602
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: and so I was like, well, I don't know, I

603
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: guess I'll do that. What the brother didn't know though,

604
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: is that i'd been. I don't know, I'll call it

605
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: gobstop a depression, like long lasting depression that you just

606
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: kind of just put up with. And if you want

607
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: to eat with a gobstopper in your mouth, it is possible.

608
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: It's just kind of annoying. So it's like living with

609
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: gobstop oppression. Isn't gobstop a depression. It's not enough to

610
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: throw you off your course and actually deal with it,

611
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: just kind of put up with it. It's like a

612
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: golf ball sized chopper.

613
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: Chop, yeah, yeah, among these things very dangerous will include

614
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: an airwaight like that.

615
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, but yeah, you learn to live with it.

616
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: You can eat a mate pie around a gobstop but

617
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: if you want, yeah.

618
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And then one day I think

619
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: the gob stops a kind of cool because you know,

620
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: like they shatter into sherbet and just go and they

621
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: really make their presence known as they go. And I

622
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: think that that's what the phone call was because reflecting

623
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: on it, I hadn't been making anything until that point.

624
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: I had not been drawing like quite a lot, not

625
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: and or work in a draw makes camera dull boy

626
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: pretty much man. And I guess maybe this brings back

627
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: in the idea of flow, like actually being assigned a

628
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: task and some steaks in a deadline, which was this funeral.

629
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: They were like, yeah, you need to draw this thing

630
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: of like your old friend and make it beautiful. And

631
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: so I just started drawing, and there was something cool,

632
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: like so my mate who I lost, we were like,

633
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: we used to make so much stuff together, man like, like, yeah,

634
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: we were in like bands together and that you know,

635
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: we always play gigs and we just do like, Okay,

636
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: just one of the most wickedly creative dudes I've ever met,

637
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: Just such a freaking brilliant guy. And I realized when

638
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: I had access to that creative state up there while

639
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: I was drawing, that it was almost as if he

640
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: was still there, right because there was a timelessness to

641
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: that feeling, to that mindset, and I was there with

642
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: him even though he wasn't there. And I think, to

643
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: answer your question, those tiny little seeds were the fact

644
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: that sometimes time isn't linear. Sometimes the memories are not

645
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: in photographs but in your mental states, you know. And

646
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 1: when I got into that creative state, there it was,

647
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: and those tiny seeds planted and I kept drawing.

648
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: A moment away from Cam walker to play some commercials

649
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: to pay the bills.

650
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: Here we are.

651
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: I ride motorbikes, but early on in my motorbike riding,

652
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: I met a riding bicycles for a long time. But

653
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: I went on this big charity ride up of a

654
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: place called Putty Road, which is north of here.

655
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: I know it. Yeah, it was pretty fucking fun.

656
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: But I found that I was on the corners a

657
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: car on these big blind corners, a very very bendy road,

658
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: and I was finding there's double lines, and I'm coming

659
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: up with the crest of her hill and I'm on

660
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: this quite powerful motorbike wasn't mine. So I was writing

661
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: the most powerful motorbike I've ever ridden with one hundred

662
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: people behind me and two hundred people in front of me.

663
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: And as I'm coming up on the road, I found

664
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: myself getting closer and closer to these cars that were

665
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: coming the other way. And afterwards, I'm like, what the fuck?

666
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: What am I doing over there? Why am I not

667
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: over here? How am I? I know I need to

668
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: be on the left lane of the of the single

669
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: lane track, I need to be in the left tire lane.

670
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: Why am I all the way over there?

671
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 2: And I read a bit a thing called target fixation

672
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: where when I'm helped trying to help Wolf, you learn

673
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: how to ride a bike, and I just tell him that, like,

674
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: you'll go where you look. If you look at the thing,

675
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: you'll end up crashing anyway, Look for the gap, look

676
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,239
Speaker 2: for the gap. You're right about that something similar called

677
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: baby heads.

678
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: Do you know about the most dangerous road in the world.

679
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: I don't, but I'm going to guess it involves a

680
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: cliff side with no railing and a bus that probably

681
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 2: shouldn't be on it.

682
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: All of that is correct. So the most dangerous road

683
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: in the world, I mean, I don't know how you

684
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: would measure it. Probably the amount of people who fall

685
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: off that cliff. It is in Bolivia and it is

686
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: still running, but it used to also be in Bolivia.

687
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: Now that first one, the one that was even more dangerous,

688
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: they closed it off and they turn it into a

689
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: tourist attraction where you can take mountain bikes and just

690
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: ride down it. However, it's not unheard of that people

691
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: on those mountain bikes fall off this incredibly dangerous road

692
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: and they slide off the cliff. So before you do it,

693
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: you get a bit of a safety warning and this

694
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: dude who hide us bags?

695
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: He was like, all right, so you thought this is

696
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: a great idea to do on my trip to Bolivia.

697
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: Everybody else is doing it, I'll jump off a social

698
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: proof is important, isn't it? Just yeah, if a hundred

699
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: people do it, it's right, right, Yeah, that wasn't. Honestly, like,

700
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: I actually did go on a bus on the most

701
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: dangerous road that was way freak here, the one that

702
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: was still open for traffic, that was way way free control. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

703
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: I even met a girl who was in a major

704
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: bus accident that slid off the cliff a couple of

705
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: years back. I was like, whoa. She's like yeah, man,

706
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: we didn't say anything else. So the guy, what's the

707
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: safety brief? Right? So he holds up this rock it's

708
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: about the size of a grape fruit, and he goes,

709
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: this is a babyhead on the trail. You'll find lots

710
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: and lots of babyheads. If you don't want to hit

711
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: the babyhead, don't look at the babyhead. And he's late,

712
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: because if you do that, obviously your wheel's going to

713
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: hit it and you'll fall off a cliff. Right. Yeah,

714
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: So he's like, look at the path that you want

715
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: to take, and your body will naturally steer there. You

716
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: don't need to ask your body with any kind of

717
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: conscious question. You just need to pay attention to it.

718
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 1: And I thought that, I don't know, like, yeah, there's

719
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: two beautiful metaphors. The first is that what we pay

720
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: attention to dictates our life, and the second is, honestly

721
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: that attention can be a matter of life and death.

722
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 2: To be told that, and in that the critical height

723
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: takes situation. It's fascinating that our brains can do that,

724
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: all that really complicated physics and geometry that are being

725
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: going on in our brains while you're understanding where you're

726
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: breaking in the camera of the road and such and

727
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: such and such. I just need to look at the

728
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: gap between those two things completely, and my body will

729
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 2: do it.

730
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: It's like that old story about you know, two people

731
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: playing tennis and then one of them says, oh, I

732
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: love what you're doing with your elbow, and then the

733
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: guy just starts choking because he's overthinking his elbow. Right. Yeah,

734
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: that's sometimes you got to focus on the goal and

735
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: just trust your body, you know, or trust that you

736
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: know what you're doing.

737
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: Why gardening fun yeah, now it's beautiful.

738
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: Like the book is all about gardening, which I do

739
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: love because gardening is about the way that you start

740
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: and not about judging the outcome. So if you were

741
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: to think of a carpenter or somebody building a building,

742
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 1: or somebody manufacturing a product, there is an end state

743
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: that you want to get to, and everything that you

744
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: do begins with that in mind. Whereas gardening begins with

745
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: the start in mind, it begins with getting the groundwork right,

746
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: making sure you know, you get like the fertilizers all nice,

747
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: and then planting the seeds, and then whatever grows, being like, well,

748
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: that's just the speed it grows. I don't have to

749
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: judge it. If it's not fast enough, that's just the

750
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: speed it grows. I've already done all the groundwork. So

751
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: what I liked that in terms of life was probably

752
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: honestly what we started this conversation with about not judging

753
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: the outcomes, or what you said about having expectations that

754
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: were not met with the reality that you're walking into.

755
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 1: That is always going to be a problem. I mean,

756
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 1: I'm not going to solve the human condition in this hour, shure,

757
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry. However, one of the things that you

758
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: can do is just know that you did everything up

759
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: front as well as you could.

760
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: My wife's favorite so is clearly gardening Australia is Oh yeah,

761
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: he loves it. And Costa who hosts it, he's an

762
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: incredible human being. He has a great line. There's no

763
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: such thing as a weed. A weed is just a

764
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: plant in the wrong place. Oh beautiful because you talk

765
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: about weed versus seed. Yes, in this around thoughts and

766
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 2: things like that, which I do love.

767
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't take the Costa, although I do quite

768
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: like that implication. I took the root of the idea

769
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: of things that look like a lush garden aren't necessarily

770
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: always a lush garden, in the way that things that

771
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: looks like things that look like success aren't always success.

772
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: And often those things that you know, create the thin

773
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: veneer of the goal that you want. Sometimes they grow

774
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: real fast, but yeah, they can actually make gardening a

775
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: whole lot harder. So if you think about I don't know,

776
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: we'll give an easy example. Somebody posting on Instagram twenty

777
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: times a day telling you that they are an awesome

778
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: epics e. It's probably not getting a whole lot of

779
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,479
Speaker 1: work done that would be a weed because it looks

780
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: like a garden. From a distance, it looks a little green.

781
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: But then when you get closer and closer and closer,

782
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: you realize that what they're doing is just making gardening

783
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: a whole lot harder for themselves. Epic.

784
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want a company that I work for to

785
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: have a CEO that does that twenty times a day.

786
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: Doesn't work for X. Right, that's never going to happen, literally,

787
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: never gonna happen.

788
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: But that brings you know, that brings us to the

789
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: point which you also talk about it in the book

790
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 2: which you feed your guarden what you feed your brain?

791
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 2: You spent a as for someone who was like right

792
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: there on Instagram building a Humongo brand. It's where people

793
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: know if I'm what I mentioned to people like oh

794
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: nokam Walker street loss from Instagram. Oh fuck, I love

795
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: your stuff And there's a gap of eighteen months or

796
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: something and your Instagram feed A that took a lot

797
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: of effort. But when it comes to getting back on

798
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: and re engaging with that, how do you make sure

799
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: that that feed doesn't do any harm?

800
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: That's a big question. I'm here to ask big questions.

801
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: I love it I love it. It's big because it's

802
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: specific personally, I got us that what was it that

803
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: made you want to just disengage? I didn't like how

804
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: much conflict I felt, and I felt. I didn't like

805
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: how compulsive it became. I didn't like compulsively unlocking my

806
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: phone and going onto Instagram and then looking at stuff,

807
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 1: and then I'd always look at the comments. And there's

808
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: such a difference between information and opinions. Sometimes opinions are

809
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: great because you know a point of view is necessary,

810
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: but a lot of the times when they're in a

811
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: comment section, it's not. It's just like eating the sugar

812
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: packets at a cafe, just like pouring them down your

813
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: mouth and just being like, yeah, this is sustenance and

814
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: then being like, why don't I feel so good? So

815
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: that was probably how I started feeling, and the conflict

816
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: just seemed to come out of nowhere. Plus, I mean, like,

817
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: this might be my paranoia when it comes to tech

818
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: and big tech particularly, I just can't help it, suspect

819
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: so much of it is bot started. I would I

820
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: think as paranoid at all.

821
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's definitely that's a humongo factor.

822
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people don't consider Yeah, but I

823
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like the idea of like people hijacking

824
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,919
Speaker 1: your thoughts, like basically saying, hey, hit this baby head

825
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: by having these inane takes about absolutely nothing, things that

826
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: will not ever be relevant. Things saying oh, notice that

827
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: you got yellow and pink? Did you know that those

828
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: are the colors of I don't know, some murderer and

829
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: that means that you are complicit in murder. And you're like,

830
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: oh man, that's not a point. That is not a point.

831
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: Why is that in my head? Now? Why am I

832
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: smoking this mental cigarette and not breathing? So that's a

833
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 1: fair reason to get off. Yeah, what was the detox?

834
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: Like necessary? I think I liked it too much and

835
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: I think I could have done it for a much

836
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: longer time. But also, like you sort of missed the

837
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: idea of immediate feedback. So there are like you know,

838
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: there are always going to be good things to things

839
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: that take over society and the way that social media

840
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: has I'll go with good because it's kind of obvious.

841
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: You know, your head comes down, you sort of get

842
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: a worldview that isn't rotted by clickbait, and you can

843
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: start to see around you that there are good things

844
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: that not everything is a crisis, you know, like a

845
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: term like breaking news for example, that's been that's been

846
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: pretty bastardized breaking news. Osha unfollowed Selena Gomez. Oh fuck it.

847
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: You know you have no idea what she DMed me like,

848
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: I'm not going to stand for that.

849
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, how dare she? Yeah we're canceling, Selena here,

850
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: I'm better than yesterday. Yeah, nah, Selena, I too am

851
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: a bad liar.

852
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: When it came at a time in your life where

853
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: you've got a family now, yeah, and there's little there's

854
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 2: few things that are as stimulating as toddlers. So yeah,

855
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 2: you were like, I was just gonna put this phone

856
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: down here and just engage with the most exciting, most

857
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 2: incredible thing.

858
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also like a beautiful thing. And I mean

859
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: like this comes back to the idea of creativity. But

860
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, It's like this is everything that

861
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: the human experience has led me to want and it

862
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: is just like the pinnacle of happiness and joy and

863
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: nothing could ever compare to it. And yeah, sure that's

864
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: a cliche, but it's goddamn true. Man.

865
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: There's a reason there's so many billions of us. Yeah,

866
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 2: because this is the effect that it has on people.

867
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: It's incredible.

868
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: And then they then they work on commission because then

869
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 2: other people tell our people, Hey, man, you want this thing.

870
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: It's amazing.

871
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: All you got to do is to find a personally

872
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: this and just put this there and do that there.

873
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: Wait a couple of months, bank Oh bohm, now you

874
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 2: have meaning. Now you have meaning in your life.

875
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: Well, you can find meaning without it. I want to

876
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: be absolutely clear about that, And you can find meaning

877
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: without it. But when that shows up, that meaning is like, hey,

878
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: pretty unambiguous. Yeah, yeah, you can absolutely find meaning without

879
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah you can, you can absolutely, but it does

880
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: really show up certainly certainly speed runs it.

881
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 2: As you're realizing the marketing is the thing you've got

882
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 2: to make money being having a presence and a profile

883
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: online as a part of.

884
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: Your job, which sucks because I I relate to this.

885
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: You have to then back engage you have engaged back

886
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: again with these weird platforms and weird places and give

887
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: them data about your life. How did you reintroduce that

888
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 2: into your life to make sure.

889
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 1: That it was a healthy thing this time? Oh, there's

890
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: an assumption in that question that I'll have to unravel.

891
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: I feel like I can't be healthy whether I don't know.

892
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: I'm a bit like you in the sense that I

893
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: can get easily fixated, Yes, easily fixated.

894
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes that fixation can turn to a compulsion

895
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: which I cannot really snap out of.

896
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes. Yeah that's the yeah, yeah, what you said. Pretend

897
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 1: I said that, everybody. Yeah, so I just said what

898
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: I just said, And that is exactly how it felt.

899
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: So at first, you know, it's like any addiction, you know,

900
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: it's like, at first it comes back and I was like, oh,

901
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: this is great, I'm in control. This is awesome. And

902
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: then next minute you watch your screen time go off

903
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh damn, dude turns out on me again.

904
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: Ah shoot, I had to go get a thing. Especially.

905
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: I've tried every single one of those fucking screen blockers

906
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: and bhah blah. I've had my wife put my pass

907
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 2: code in for me. None of it has worked. I

908
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: will say, though, if you are looking for ones, just

909
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: for tactical advice. So this isn't all higher level stuff. Instagram,

910
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: there's an app called my Insta, which is really good

911
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 2: because you can hack what Instagram shows you. So if

912
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 2: you find that you are more addicted to one particular part,

913
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: say comments or stories, or having videos auto play. Because

914
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: of the way this app is, you can just turn

915
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: off those. So the way that I use Instagram is

916
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: I've basically got the app that doesn't let me see

917
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: any comments.

918
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: I love that.

919
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm on Yeah dude, because that in combination

920
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: with this other thing that I found, which is the

921
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: only thing that has got my screen time down ever, Yeah,

922
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: a hammer. Very similarly, it's a brick a it's about

923
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: this big. Yeah, that's an RFID you think, with a

924
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: magnet on the back, and it sits on my fridge.

925
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: Oh I done, seeen abs for them. Yeah, it's fucking good.

926
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: It's the only thing that has so you stick your

927
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: phone in it. I just go tap it like.

928
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: I'm paying something at the cafe, and until I'm back

929
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 2: in front of my fridge and I tap it again,

930
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 2: it won't work.

931
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: Wow, it's really really good. Do you find yourself ever?

932
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: I mean, it gives you so much pause before you

933
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: can actually do it, But do you find yourself ever

934
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: just hacking it or like lying to yourself and being

935
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: like I'm just going on the fridge for a snack. No, really,

936
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: not at all. How do you use it? Not at all?

937
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: It's I've used it mostly for Instagram. Yeah.

938
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: When I find myself just a bit too much in there,

939
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 2: I just turn it off and then I go to

940
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: open it and oh, that's why it's not there. If

941
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: I want to look at it, I'm going to have

942
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: to go upstairs or go home.

943
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: And no, then I don't really need that much.

944
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 2: It's enough to just interrupt, giving you that that moment

945
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: between stimulus and response, that moment between do I what

946
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: if I go and look at this beautiful male lucatory

947
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,439
Speaker 2: right here, and smell of flowers, look at the rainbow,

948
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: lowercats enjoying their life, and I.

949
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: Wish on you what the dumbest personal live thought about this?

950
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: Just take that.

951
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: That's the why they're not even there anymore. It's a

952
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: bot producing a terrible impression of the dumbest personal life,

953
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: which is, you know, a drag.

954
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: You won't be otherable before? Was it before you had kids? Yeah? Yeah?

955
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: How did having kids and becoming a father changes before

956
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: the second child came along? Yeah?

957
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: Yeah?

958
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: How being a dad on the one kid one book

959
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: stio thrown upon you?

960
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: How did that change the way you approach this in

961
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: so many ways, man. So I mean we'll go through them. Well,

962
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: I'll go through like the sort of philosophical ones, and

963
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: then I'll go through the actual tactical ones. The big

964
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: overarching ones were probably the fear that I felt around

965
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: the future, and they can relate, yeah, and the fear

966
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: that I felt around the fear of the future, and

967
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: how sometimes I think preconceptions about what the world will

968
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: do or where the world will go can be actively damaging,

969
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: particularly if they are apocalyptic. Yeah, like general catastrophizing and

970
00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: then like collective catastrophizing as well. So I don't know, like, yeah,

971
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: the idea of time in the future becomes really became

972
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: really really real to me once I have my first kid,

973
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: because it's like, all right, so you know, she's going

974
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: to be this age in this year, and it's like

975
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: years that sound like sci fi and like that's when

976
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: Blade Runner is set. But I'm like, no, that's when

977
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: she'll graduate high school. I'm like, oh, dude, that's crazy.

978
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: And I don't know. It's like the best measure I

979
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: have is the past to predict the future. And what

980
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: I mean by that is it's like, all right, every

981
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: year so far has happened, so it's probably a pretty

982
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: safe bet that all the next ones will happen. I

983
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: don't think a solar flare is going to take us out,

984
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: and even so, acting like it will is no way

985
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: to live. So the point of view that I have

986
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: to operate from is the world will be good, Everything

987
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: will be good. Is there any evidence? Why can I

988
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: find that? And Yeah, it turns out there's a ton

989
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: and a lot of preconceptions get in the way of that.

990
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: So I don't know. That was the philosophical ones. In

991
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: terms of tactical I wrote at night a lot. Yeah,

992
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: once everybody was asleep, I think I aged about ten years.

993
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: In the past two I got really really sick, which

994
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: was kind of messed up, and I had to move overseas.

995
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: A whole lot of crazy stuff happened to a lot

996
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: of close people in my life. It was. Yeah, it's

997
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: been an absolutely chaotic time, and I think having a

998
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: project to process a lot of those motions in and

999
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: process the transition that I'm in, it's just been psy

1000
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: cathartic and I really hope it comes through because it's

1001
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: at least been good for me selfish. What you just

1002
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: kind of vaguely alluded to there.

1003
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: You have elite level coping strategies, clearly because you got

1004
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 2: through what you've just got through the last two year,

1005
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: three years yourself.

1006
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: I've got my ten thousand hours bro mate, No no, no,

1007
00:48:55,160 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: before that. Yeah, yeah, but I'm sure this is not

1008
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: a thing you do alone.

1009
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: What role does your wife play in you being who

1010
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 2: you are and you producing stuff like this?

1011
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: I wrote this short story once which was too edgy

1012
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: to publish, but there was a line I really liked

1013
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 1: in it, which was talking about how modern parent modern

1014
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: fatherhood books in particular, seem to just abuse the shit

1015
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: out of sports metaphors, and I'd like to do that

1016
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: in the great tradition. She is Michael Jordan and I'm

1017
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: Scottie Pippin, and I'm pretty sure everything we do together

1018
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 1: is the ball or the net or I still can't

1019
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: work out that part. But she's the main character, man,

1020
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: She's the reason that we keep winning championships, and I

1021
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: am just there also kind of being the reason. And

1022
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: I guess it's how cinergy together.

1023
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: But like, yeah, how do you when you're having your

1024
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: tough days? How do you be sure that I'm not

1025
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: making hers worse. Yeah, yeah, because she's also she's in

1026
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: there with you.

1027
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, bottle it up unhealthily like a man. What do

1028
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: you do? I try to do that. Yeah, sometimes I

1029
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: could be.

1030
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: I can be less useful with my communicativeness about it,

1031
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: like I might. I probably choose poor words because I

1032
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 2: will be able to explain what's going on, but forget

1033
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: to make sometimes make it not as clear that but

1034
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: it's not on you to fix it.

1035
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm just let you know what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1036
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: sort of implying the disclaimer and realizing that that's that

1037
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: can cause a fight. That's it's actually saying it out loud. Yeah. Yeah.

1038
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: And even if you say it out loud, sometimes just

1039
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: your tone is not saying it at all. This isn't

1040
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: your fault, right, go on, Yeah, this is uh. This

1041
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: is something that I struggle with. Yeah.

1042
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: What I think I sound like is very different sometimes

1043
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 2: to what I do sound like. Yeah, And that can

1044
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 2: change depending on the underlying precondition.

1045
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: And I might not realize that something's coming out spiky.

1046
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: There's a few things that we have in those moments

1047
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: that I think I don't know. We've been together for

1048
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: I have no idea thirteen years that seems right, big

1049
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: and thin, yeah yeah, and growing up together as well.

1050
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of beautiful. But there's a few

1051
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: little things that we've taken from various sources and podcasts

1052
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: and some that we've invented ourselves to get us through

1053
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: those days. One comes from Brene Brown that she talks

1054
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: about doing with her husband, which is when you've both

1055
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: had a hard day, you say what percentage of energy

1056
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: you're bringing, Like, man, I'm bringing twenty, are you bringing

1057
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: more than twenty? And if she's bringing eighty, we're like, okay, sweet,

1058
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: we've got one hundred, which means we can look after

1059
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: our kids and get through the night and then just

1060
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: get to tomorrow. And sometimes she'll be like, I'm bringing five,

1061
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm bringing fifteen. This is mine and

1062
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: you know that it's up to you to rise to

1063
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: the occasion. And I mean sometimes you just have to

1064
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: like buy the bullet and do it, so that is

1065
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: often respected. The other thing that we do is we

1066
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: don't have too many communication issues. And I'd say part

1067
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: of that us both being chatty Kathy's and the other

1068
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: part is this code word that we have for none

1069
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 1: of this is on you. I am just saying this

1070
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: because if I don't say it, I'm gonna feel worse

1071
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: about saying it. But it's not an accusation, even though

1072
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: it might feel like one. This is a complete diffuser.

1073
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: Can I say this? You have to be completely honest.

1074
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: The word we use is rigby rigby. Yes. It comes

1075
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: from the show's Silicon Valley. I haven't watched enough of it.

1076
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: Oh man. There's this part where like two of the

1077
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: engineers are bitching about Rick Richard and they're like, oh,

1078
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: Richard is great, but and they find saying that is

1079
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: too long when they're bitching about him, and so they're

1080
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: just like, oh, can we patch it in the way

1081
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: that an engineer might They're like, oh yeah, rigb rigby,

1082
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, cap that one. Change the context. And it's honestly,

1083
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: I reckon. I have saved leg and her as well,

1084
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 1: like probably like yeah, collective months of disputes, wow, yeah.

1085
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: Because that is the big part of relationships that people

1086
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 2: tend not to talk about it. Sometimes you really get

1087
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: the shits with each other. Yeah, And there's this it's

1088
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 2: the coming back together part. It's this it does it

1089
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: has a cycle about it and You've got to be

1090
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: good at the coming back together part.

1091
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: That's the thing that it really gets you there. How

1092
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: do you do it? Fuck me, how do I do it?

1093
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be in a relationship. How do

1094
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 1: you deal with people? How do you diffuse? What's your

1095
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: pressure about? I breathe a lot. I breathe a lot.

1096
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 2: And I've also kind of recognized that. One of my

1097
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: psychiatrists told me that I have two time zones now

1098
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 2: and not now.

1099
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: Whoa and that's it.

1100
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 2: Oh. I love the sympathicity and it really helps me understand, like,

1101
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: how did I fucking forget to do that thing that

1102
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 2: I knew was really really important and now I haven't

1103
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 2: fucking done it. And I'm sending a message to other

1104
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,280
Speaker 2: people that they as far as second, they're not important

1105
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: to me, but they are important to me.

1106
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: I sent you one last night, I know, yeah, but

1107
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: that was a not now time zone because like right

1108
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 1: now I'm here, I got this thing and like how

1109
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: fucking got a tea bags? And that's that, and it

1110
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: was it was really difficult. It's really fucking difficult.

1111
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 2: So understanding having some understanding of that is really hard,

1112
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 2: but also it's really useful because when I was going

1113
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 2: through all the chronic pain stuff, I had this fucking

1114
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 2: sleeper power because I would just forget how much it

1115
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:17,240
Speaker 2: hurt yesterday.

1116
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 1: That can relate so hard to that I would just

1117
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: forget like that.

1118
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 2: By nine pm, I will be breathing through my teeth

1119
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: and flinching, just moving, and I will do everything I

1120
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 2: can to get into the hottest bath I can have

1121
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 2: and wait for the you know, any flum trees kick in,

1122
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 2: and then go to bed, wake up the next say,

1123
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 2: going they have are fucking goods today, Not worried at

1124
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 2: all that in you know, eleven hours from now, it

1125
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 2: was going to really hurt.

1126
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: And I'm really lucky that my brain does that. In

1127
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: some contexts, I mean that anasure there is like strategic.

1128
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: But if it's like there's a lot of places where

1129
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be helpful, well, it does have not helpful connotations. Absolutely.

1130
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 2: I have to go back through my notes and things,

1131
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 2: because I do write down a lot of things.

1132
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: It helps a lot.

1133
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: And I have to go back to promotes and go,

1134
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 2: I hang on that thing that shat me has been

1135
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 2: shitting I've been I've read about this a year ago. Oh,

1136
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 2: I fucking should probably do something about that, because I'll

1137
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 2: just wake up the next day going, hey, you're here,

1138
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 2: how great? This is great, we're here together, how goods everything?

1139
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: And I'll just be in that moment without any of

1140
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: the thing I do. Take things like as they are,

1141
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: like a labrador, I very much am Wow, I like them.

1142
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: Thumbs man, I never read it. Yeah, that's just that's

1143
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 1: big human dude. Oh we need to take another break

1144
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: because the bills keep boiling up. But the ads are

1145
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: here to help us with that. Thank you for listening

1146
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: to them.

1147
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 2: The idea of going from doom to bloom, the idea

1148
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:55,479
Speaker 2: of that creativity is the opposite of self destruction because

1149
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 2: we might not realize we might think our self destruction.

1150
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 2: That's you know, a glittering obliterating my off on a

1151
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 2: case of wine calls and a pack of Winny twenty

1152
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 2: five's and you know, five tender dates in a royal Again,

1153
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 2: it is, but it could also be I'm just going

1154
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 2: to sit here on my couch on.

1155
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: My phone and yeah, oh absolutely kilometers today. Yeah, And

1156
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: in many ways that's I mean, like worse because it

1157
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: doesn't have the efficiency to make you know how much

1158
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 1: has ruined your life. That's right. Yeah, like like yeah,

1159
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: smoking meth and reels like Instagram reels.

1160
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: Will be nine months into scrolling reels and not realizing

1161
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 2: they we're closer to a better life and nine months

1162
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 2: of the other one like you'll be spitting our teeth

1163
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 2: going man.

1164
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's also like it'll disguise itself way better.

1165
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: You know, meth is at best, it's like, hey, now

1166
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: you can get everything done, whereas reels will be like

1167
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: you're informed, you're part of the culture, you're tapped in,

1168
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:49,760
Speaker 1: but also not good enough. Look at that you are.

1169
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: That was a really good impression. Yes, don't you wish

1170
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: you had a physique like this guy. You're great, You're awesome.

1171
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: You're part of the world. If you're a terrible parents

1172
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 1: because you're not this thing you know about world affairs.

1173
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: Look at these people having a much better time at

1174
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: a festival that you're not cool after that invied you.

1175
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:10,479
Speaker 1: Oh god, now they're both bad.

1176
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: That's literally like I've always stayed away from explore or

1177
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 2: for you or any of that.

1178
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 1: Always stayed away from it, which, by the way, not

1179
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: a plug, but that my insta app. You can actually

1180
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: like ban all of that stuff. If Instagram is your vice.

1181
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: I love that that. That is really good.

1182
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 2: And we talked about the kind of year you've had

1183
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: to if you've been through a fucking ton of shit

1184
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 2: and in the middle of that, I call you up

1185
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: and say, hey, Cam, I know that you've just done

1186
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 2: all this wild stuff and you are hanging on to

1187
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 2: the world's most dangerous world road in the world with

1188
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: your fingernails. Would you like to dedicate a couple months

1189
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 2: of your life to illustrating a pot for me?

1190
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I said, yeah, sure, And then you said,

1191
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: and the main characters are hand, which if you don't draw,

1192
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: that's annoying.

1193
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: Hadha. There's a reason most cartoon characters have gloves. Yeah,

1194
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 2: and then three fingers and three fingers or no, no,

1195
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: no opposable thumbs are really hard. As you once said

1196
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 2: to me, and I quote to everybody, the hand is

1197
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 2: the eyebrow of the arm.

1198
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: That's true. And honestly, like no shade on finding Nemo,

1199
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: but they kind of had it easy. No hands, bro,

1200
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: think about it.

1201
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 2: If you're just doing eyes and answer morphvized facial expressions.

1202
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: I take that back. Yeah, they had to put in

1203
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: way more. I don't need to have these thoughts out loud.

1204
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: I just agree.

1205
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: I'm going back to watch Finding Nemo. I've dived on

1206
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 2: the actual dive site that inspired the opening scene.

1207
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 1: That's sick. It's in Fiji, It's fucking that's sick. Yeah.

1208
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: The people from Pictar one of them, We're like, this

1209
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: is the place, this is where we saw the film. Oh,

1210
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: that's so cool.

1211
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 2: It's whether there's this big kind of ridge line that ends.

1212
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 2: It goes down like I don't know kilometer, and so

1213
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 2: you get big pellagic cold water fish that mix with

1214
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: the tropical fish right at the top of it. Oh wow,

1215
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 2: thanks for rescuing meat. It's a long way down, but

1216
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 2: that's fucking yeah, it's really good. So yes, we drew

1217
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: a hand character. We drew a hand character. And so

1218
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 2: I ask you is like, can you can you do

1219
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 2: this for me? Because adore the work. You know, adore

1220
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 2: the you know, the way that you communicate. And there

1221
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: was no one else so I ever would want to

1222
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 2: illustrate this book. And I was just so grateful with

1223
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 2: the robustness that you just launched into it, even though

1224
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 2: I gave you all main carriage. It's a fucking hand

1225
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: One of the hardest things ever to draw and make

1226
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 2: look expressive, like the hand's got to be sad, the

1227
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 2: hand's got to be excited, the hand's got to be running.

1228
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is really fun. And then even you'd

1229
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: sort of like broken the rules of hands as well,

1230
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: because you're like, okay, I want the pinky to have

1231
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 1: like four more joints in it so it can do

1232
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: like all of this kind of like sassy stuff.

1233
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 2: With occasionally the hands hand goes on a hip. So

1234
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: I think I do remember going to school with a

1235
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: kid that could do some cool shit with his little

1236
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 2: finger like that, and it would make people vomit. He's

1237
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 2: in jail now, probably if your trick is to make

1238
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 2: your knuckles bend backwards.

1239
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, you're already on a list. Way wats this?

1240
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: Yeah that guy? Yeah, but you said yes, yeah, it

1241
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: was real fun. And then like when you're like okay,

1242
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: I want it running, and then I was like, okay,

1243
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: I just watched Fantasia. You got to rewatch it every year,

1244
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: and especially part with like whatever, and so I was like, oh,

1245
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: I can like Sorcerer's Apprentice the Glove and have the

1246
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: Glove like sort of running and running and running, And

1247
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: that was really fun because it gave it like so

1248
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: much personality, and then we yeah, ended up kind of

1249
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: making the face a little bit rubber hosey, which is

1250
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 1: real fun.

1251
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 2: That's kind of old style Mickey Mouse, which, by the way,

1252
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: you can absolutely use.

1253
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: It is copyright free. Yeah as of two years ago. Really,

1254
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: oh yeah, man, put Steamboat Willie on a shirt. Do

1255
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: it make some money? It's public domain baby. Oh wow.

1256
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 2: I asked you to do some pretty wild stuff. And

1257
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 2: one of the reasons that I wanted you and only

1258
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: you to do this is because I knew that when

1259
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 2: I said to you, I'm going to need a metaphor

1260
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 2: for this, but involves a whole and a labrador and

1261
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 2: a typographic monster with two shovels.

1262
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: You went, no problem. But yeah, yeah, yeah, dude, yeah

1263
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean you were super specific with the

1264
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: brief and it made total sense to me. You know,

1265
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: when you get like to a point of like telepathy,

1266
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 1: because someone's communicating quite clearly and you're like, yeah, I

1267
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: know exactly what's in your head. You don't need to

1268
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: say the rest of the words, but I can do it,

1269
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 1: and you're trying to get it out of your head

1270
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: into mind. So my hands can put it onto the paper.

1271
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: That's probably how I felt then, But now as you

1272
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 1: say it out loud, I'm like, yeah, that was that

1273
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 1: was pretty fucking weird, dude. But that's also why I

1274
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: wanted you to do it.

1275
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they when I first got the book deal,

1276
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 2: they said, oh, we could get this out of so

1277
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: that I thought we could just you know, get someone.

1278
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, nah, thank you.

1279
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 2: I won't be able to communicate this to anybody except camp.

1280
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: It was really it was such a it's such a

1281
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: pleasure to draw as well, because I think the thing

1282
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: that really helped with that process was when I also,

1283
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: you know, when they when they will put me forward

1284
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: to do the layouts as well, so it's like I've

1285
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 1: done the illustration, and in my head I had this

1286
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 1: sort of idea of how I wanted the tech to

1287
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: play with all of the things, and how I wanted

1288
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: all the backgrounds, and how I wanted each page to

1289
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: look like it's own artwork, because I feel like the

1290
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: book you wrote, you know, it's the one hundred and

1291
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: something pages, and each page has its own lesson, and

1292
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: I wanted I don't know, in my head, I had

1293
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: it like envisioned it's sitting on somebody's stand, on one

1294
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: of those open bookshelfy things where it could be there,

1295
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, I want to make each page

1296
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 1: worthy of that position in a room that it exists

1297
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: by itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so I was going

1298
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: from that as my starting point, and I don't know,

1299
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: maybe it's what we're talking about before the fixation. I

1300
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: just like just capt going and it was so much fun.

1301
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 1: Absolutely nail that. You've got to do the layout.

1302
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: And for people that don't know what layout is is

1303
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, a picture of magazine you know you'll see

1304
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 2: or maybe a website, right, you see, there's a headline

1305
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 2: at the top, there's usually some boulder font something in italics,

1306
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 2: with a byline. There's a photo, usually some metallic I

1307
01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 2: to make that, and then a couple of paragraphs and

1308
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 2: then an ad for some depending on who you are,

1309
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 2: either nine out of ten people over fifty can't believe

1310
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 2: they missed out on this.

1311
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: And then the rest of the article all right, yeah,

1312
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: which is me.

1313
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: So that's layout, okay, but that can tell the story,

1314
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 2: it can detract from the story, Like anytime you've sat

1315
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 2: if I ever use a web brass that doesn't have

1316
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 2: ad blockers on it. I'm like, how the fuck do

1317
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 2: people deal with all this flashing shit? So I have

1318
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 2: everything locked down. The layout can either detract or really amplify.

1319
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 2: And what the fact that you got to do the

1320
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 2: layout just amplified so much of it, even things like

1321
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 2: colored choices of backgrounds in converse to you know, the

1322
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: antithesis of that point twenty pages ago.

1323
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: It's unbelievably well thought out. Man. Oh thanks man, I

1324
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: appreciate it. It was so cool. Yeah, it was real cool.

1325
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: And like got to denim my own font for it,

1326
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 1: which was really fine. Yeah. So, I don't know, just

1327
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 1: like putting everything on the page and just feeling this

1328
01:03:54,320 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: holistic sense of like aesthetic ownership it was before.

1329
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 2: What I really liked as well is that when I

1330
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 2: was trying to picture something that wasn't working, or you

1331
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,439
Speaker 2: were doing something that wasn't quite mixing the mark, missing

1332
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 2: the mark, I don't think. I don't think we ever

1333
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 2: had a moment where I was like, fuck you, it's

1334
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 2: going to happen. It was like okay, man, sure, yeah, absolutely,

1335
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 2: if that doesn't land take it away, Yeah, I was.

1336
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 2: I was so wonderfully detached from, Like I just wanted

1337
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 2: to do this.

1338
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: How do I get it? To do this? I'm not

1339
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: attached to I love that we were able to do that. Yeah. Thanks.

1340
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 2: I haven't had a working relationship like that for a while,

1341
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 2: and really well, I mean I have really creative working relationships.

1342
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 2: But it was very It was a really positive thing

1343
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 2: because we're both creating this thing. It's no longer just mine,

1344
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 2: it's ours. We have to both be cool with it,

1345
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 2: and both our names are going on it. Yeah, and

1346
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 2: I really really liked that we were able to do that.

1347
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: This is act. This is the very iPad that I

1348
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: did a lot of that sketching on the true I'd

1349
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: like to bring him one point of tension and critique

1350
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,919
Speaker 1: your handwriting. I'm terrible, it's so bad. Have the work

1351
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: it is like you'd make it like obviously your parents adopts.

1352
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 2: You know that's true. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up

1353
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: but I've got some I've probably got some.

1354
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, I want everyone to just.

1355
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: Bring up an original. I'm going to bring up an original,

1356
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 2: one of my original sketches. A lot of these were

1357
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 2: done on the planet.

1358
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: Your sketches are good. Thank you. You're very good at drawing,

1359
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: and then thank you. And then it's just these like

1360
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: it's like reading shorthand and like like you know when

1361
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 1: you read like old court documents and there's someone who

1362
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: would like do like the squiggles and stuff. Yeah, that's

1363
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: the one. I've got one of the original sketches here.

1364
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 2: It's about the one regarding cognitive fusion, which is a

1365
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 2: very difficult thing to talk about, but it's one of

1366
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 2: the things that really distracted me.

1367
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 1: That's that one.

1368
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 2: Yes, and the idea was that you have this thought,

1369
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 2: and the thought is so intense and so visceral that

1370
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 2: it's like you're getting sucked into the horror movie and

1371
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 2: suddenly you're there.

1372
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, this is

1373
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: exactly what I mean. It's like these are super legible sketches.

1374
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: In my opinion, Like I completely understood what you were

1375
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: talking about. It's like, yeah, Glove, he's watching a horror movie.

1376
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: Then that horror movie feels like it's alive. And then

1377
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, here's the runes. Yeah you're decid for

1378
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 1: those genius. Yeah, I listened to a lot of Viking metal.

1379
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, here's my impression of every language at once.

1380
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 2: There was a couple of a couple A couple of

1381
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: the sketches were which I'm I'm stoked about. A couple

1382
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 2: of the sketches were my actual hand because I would

1383
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 2: be I was like, how do I draw the hand?

1384
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 2: I want to do that, and so I would hold

1385
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 2: the iPad like this and take a photo of my

1386
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 2: hand in the position I wanted it, and then sketch

1387
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 2: over it and then put the face on it, and

1388
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 2: a couple of them made it into the book, see,

1389
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 2: which I'm stoped for.

1390
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely made it left so I could like,

1391
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: you know, do it lifetime.

1392
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 2: And I'm glad you did because the live show, so

1393
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 2: live show. You wanted me to make a puppet, like

1394
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 2: a giant, life sized puppet that I inhabit.

1395
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, inhabit yeah, yeah yeah, analogue and you're like, nah, dude.

1396
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: So I'm working with a guy who's the professor at

1397
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 2: one of the art schools here in Sydney, and with

1398
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 2: another mate who worked on the Minecraft movie and to

1399
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 2: live motion capture my actual hand are using a hacked

1400
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:33,479
Speaker 2: VR headset, wearing a head band with an iPhone twelve

1401
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 2: on the front that captures my face and I'm glad

1402
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 2: you made at a left hand. This is why I'm

1403
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 2: glad you made at left hand because then my right

1404
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 2: hand can bring it and bring out the layers.

1405
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: And the live show is me with that projected.

1406
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 2: Behind me, using all the InDesign layers and bringing them

1407
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 2: up on the screen and like doing the show live.

1408
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 1: You're looking at me like a coykup right now? Is it?

1409
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: Because what's awesome? I think in my head like because

1410
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 1: I knew you wanted to do a moke up, I

1411
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: think in my head there was somebody else doing it

1412
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,439
Speaker 1: and so you could interact with them. But the fact

1413
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: that you're doing it all the day yourself. If you're

1414
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 1: like Beardy Man or something, it'll be yeah, yeah, yeah,

1415
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 1: you're like just doing it all at once.

1416
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 2: Well, because you know, Reggie Watts, it's not the eighties, man,

1417
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 2: you can't take twelve piece funk bands on the road anymore.

1418
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 2: You've got to do it by yourself, like every other

1419
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 2: person i'd take on the road, like ah, you margin's

1420
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 2: start to get out the window.

1421
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: So it's like, how can I do this with as

1422
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:22,679
Speaker 1: little few people as possible?

1423
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 2: And yes, so pretty much so I've yet to figure out.

1424
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: I yet to do the proof of concept, but I

1425
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 1: think that's going to be it.

1426
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 2: I think that's going to be the show, and that

1427
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,679
Speaker 2: it's so we because it's a conversation between a book

1428
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 2: and a glove.

1429
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is normal, this is normal. So the book

1430
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: is the whole book is a conversation. Okay.

1431
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking the live show will be Glovey, which

1432
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 2: we call Bookie and Glovey. We'll called it Glovey will

1433
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 2: be reading it in their voice because I couldn't figure

1434
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 2: out how to turn the mo cap off and be

1435
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 2: the voice of the book, and I didn't want to

1436
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:04,560
Speaker 2: be overly cranky or have the pathos really get in

1437
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 2: there from the book voice. I want a glove to

1438
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 2: be curious and go, huh, how would you know? Like

1439
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 2: it's reading the text as it comes up. Oh well,

1440
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 2: I guess, and they're responding. Glove is responding to the

1441
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 2: text that comes up. The other characters are simply the

1442
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 2: text coming on the screen.

1443
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 1: So ambitious, icking love it. I love it so much

1444
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 1: so I keep swearing, but like, yeah, dude, that is awesome.

1445
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?

1446
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 2: What's the name of that? I can't Remember, here's the

1447
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 2: fucking unbelievable. Is the greatest baseball player that's ever lived

1448
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 2: as a Japanese guys playing for the La Dodgers. And

1449
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 2: on the night, you know how they have the bubble

1450
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 2: head nights and stuff like that, every literally every child

1451
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 2: wins a baseball bat some nights.

1452
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 1: It's amazing, incredible. Merch is brilliant.

1453
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 2: But on his bubble head night, he walks out to

1454
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 2: the plate and he points at the fence and goes

1455
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 2: pink hits this fucking tater and goes straight over exactly

1456
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 2: where he wants. Mad Homer like, you've got a point

1457
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 2: for the fence and you got to hit. You might

1458
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 2: not get it, but.

1459
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:00,600
Speaker 1: You got to go for it. You got to go

1460
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: for it. That's sick.

1461
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 2: I don't want to leave the conversation without speaking about

1462
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 2: the double date.

1463
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: Oh yes, the accidental double date. Yeah yeah, yeah. For

1464
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:15,640
Speaker 1: me it was an anniversary and for you it was

1465
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: a Friday. And I found that funny. I guess maybe

1466
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 1: like it was the esteem I held you in versus

1467
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:23,640
Speaker 1: maybe the esteem I didn't hold myself in that. I

1468
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: was like, man, this is like this zorm of money,

1469
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 1: Like we're gonna go out here. It's gonna be awesome.

1470
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 1: It's like this fancy thing and you're like, oh dude,

1471
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 1: I'm just chilling and like that. That was like like

1472
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 1: you felt so I don't know, like successful. I think

1473
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 1: like from my point of view that I was like, wow,

1474
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:42,520
Speaker 1: you can just go to this restaurant.

1475
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 2: The occasion was love well, the occasion was I am

1476
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 2: going to take Audrey out of the house away from

1477
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 2: the kids, and she and I are going to look

1478
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 2: at each other across the table and eat some food

1479
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:56,639
Speaker 2: and talk about not kids stuff for a while.

1480
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: See he's successful, you know what I mean. It's like yeah,

1481
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like he's just doing something beautiful

1482
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:05,240
Speaker 1: for the sake of it. It was pretty lovely, and.

1483
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 2: The now not in our brain. I have to be

1484
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 2: very deliberate about that kind of thing. I can totally

1485
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:12,640
Speaker 2: forget that that is a really important thing to do.

1486
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:14,799
Speaker 2: If I don't make the plans in the now phase,

1487
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 2: that don't happen. So I have to be really quite

1488
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 2: strategic about it. But we it was this beautiful restaurant.

1489
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,719
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's still a place called Yellow

1490
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 2: and Pot's Point, which is a vegan place, which is great,

1491
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:32,160
Speaker 2: and there was a degastation menu which you could get.

1492
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:33,840
Speaker 2: It was actually pretty decent. I think it was like

1493
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty or one hundred and forty or something,

1494
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 2: ten courses or something, and each one came with its

1495
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 2: own little juice or something, which was amazing. And it

1496
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 2: was a packed restaurant. And we got brought in and

1497
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 2: there's this two top right there, and sometimes in a

1498
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 2: restaurant the two tops are I just say, like beach towers.

1499
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 2: There's a distance which is acceptable as in online. Here

1500
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,520
Speaker 2: mostly naked next to a stranger, and I'm fine.

1501
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 1: Those tables we're really close, closer.

1502
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 2: Than two people who don't know each other, close enough

1503
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 2: that the people probably are going to get to know

1504
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:14,080
Speaker 2: each other.

1505
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 1: So close that and I've got shitty hearing.

1506
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 2: There was no way you could not hear every single

1507
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 2: thing the other two people were saying.

1508
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,759
Speaker 1: It was that close. And as we moved to the tables,

1509
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 1: we get there like holy fux shit. As you guys, yeah,

1510
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:33,240
Speaker 1: it was lovely. It was lovely, of course, like the closeness.

1511
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:36,720
Speaker 1: I remember what you said afterwards. You're like, it's kind

1512
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: of like being on a plane where it's like you

1513
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 1: talk to the person next to you, if you're in

1514
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: a friendly mood, maybe for like the little bit, but

1515
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 1: there's a point where you both have to make the

1516
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 1: silent agreement that you are going back into your own world,

1517
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: and that could be hard to juggle. And I remember

1518
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:54,599
Speaker 1: you've been like the way that you put it, You're like, oh, yeah,

1519
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 1: we catch up, catch up, catch up, and we do

1520
01:12:57,400 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 1: our thing, we do our thing, we do our thing.

1521
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 1: Oh and either way, da da da da da da.

1522
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: And I was like, man, what a what an interesting

1523
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 1: little moment.

1524
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 2: It was so well that we had this kind of

1525
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 2: accent a double date because I think it was because

1526
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 2: it was an anniversary.

1527
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Normally we would to push the tables together.

1528
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was this special night and

1529
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, you guys, have your night, it's

1530
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 2: your anniversary.

1531
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't know, because I will

1532
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:23,719
Speaker 1: just talk.

1533
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 2: And you know, the conversation will just somehow always become

1534
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:30,760
Speaker 2: about me, and this is not what you want.

1535
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 1: One thing I really remember that I haven't told you

1536
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 1: about from that night was you ordered mocktails with all

1537
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:38,800
Speaker 1: your dinner. And I remember clucking that because I was

1538
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,559
Speaker 1: still drinking at the time, and being like, oh, it's

1539
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 1: just like you'll go back to seeds. It was a

1540
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:45,559
Speaker 1: tony little seed of possibility of sobriety. And I'm like, oh,

1541
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 1: that's that's how you go out to a restaurant, is it.

1542
01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 1: I'll file that away for later. I had to learn

1543
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Yeah. I don't really like mocktaus as

1544
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 1: a general rule.

1545
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 2: It's like, mate, you're charging me eighteen dollars for cranberry

1546
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 2: juice with a bit of lime sprinkled into it and.

1547
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:01,919
Speaker 1: Calling it something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a cranbridge.

1548
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, And it's not eighteen dollars for one

1549
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:07,280
Speaker 2: hundred mils of something in a beautiful bit of crystal.

1550
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:14,720
Speaker 1: Come on for an Appalachian sunset, a guava dream. You know.

1551
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: I think the people who work at the Crayon color

1552
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 2: factory work also at the the Mocktawe naming.

1553
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 1: Factory and fonts naming fonse. That's the big three services

1554
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 1: they arefer. They're like, yep, this one's Heather missed. All right, bro, Well.

1555
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 2: Look maybe next time Marobi your way we might actually

1556
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:37,680
Speaker 2: have a how many would it be by now?

1557
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: Like a except couple date. Yeah, we'll finally let the

1558
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: tables touch. It'll be cool. I think we're ready. Ye

1559
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: are you ready to dock? Am I the first guests

1560
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 1: you've asked? Are we ready to dock too? It's no.

1561
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:57,080
Speaker 1: I can see it's a no. I don't want you

1562
01:14:57,120 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 1: to think this moment is not special. Wow. Wow, wow, Okay,

1563
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: now that's cool. Yeah, we read a book together or whatever.

1564
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:08,600
Speaker 1: I wrote a book myself, and I guess I'm going

1565
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 1: to do that again as Chell whatever. Bye. You know.

1566
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 1: The worst part is you're gonna like write me a

1567
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 1: handwritten apology. I won't be able to read it. You're

1568
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: not wrong.

1569
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 2: That was Campbell Walker. You can buy his brand new book.

1570
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 2: It's called Doom and Bloom. I'll put the link in

1571
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:44,040
Speaker 2: the show notes. You can also buy the book that

1572
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 2: he and I worked on together. It's called So What

1573
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:48,400
Speaker 2: Now What? That link is right there as well. Follow

1574
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:51,080
Speaker 2: him on YouTube, follow him on Instagram. The guy is

1575
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 2: an incredible human being.

1576
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 1: I am he is. We are working on a live

1577
01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: version of the book So What Now What.

1578
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 2: I am currently in a Sylvester Stallone Roadhouse wrestling movie.

1579
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:06,759
Speaker 1: And there were two movies.

1580
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 2: Patrick Swayzee was Roadhouse Over the Top was the Stallone

1581
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 2: movie regardless, I'm in that movie with unreal engine right now,

1582
01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 2: trying to get this thing to look it's gonna work,

1583
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 2: but holy smokes, the learning curving steep. I'm getting there

1584
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,919
Speaker 2: as soon as I can get this headset to recognize

1585
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 2: my hand.

1586
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:28,920
Speaker 1: We are on.

1587
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for Adam bunch Of who produces episode.

1588
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening. If you like the show,

1589
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:46,720
Speaker 2: please subscribe, Please tell a friend see how Monday