1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Graham Cahr and welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: Pleasure to join you, Paul. 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 3: So we're we're going to talk all things mental health. 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 3: I received your your book, the one that we're going 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 3: to talk about, which is Great Leader's Curse, So it's 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 3: really about mental health in the workplace. 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: But you go way back before that. 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 3: You were involved with the the r UK then the 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 3: start of that, but previous to that you kind of 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 3: had your own experience. Can can you just tell us 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: a little bit about your background, the work that you 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: did and then and then your experience that kind of 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 3: laid you down this path. 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, Like how led the Khannie executive search practice 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: and it was booming back in the early early two 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: thousand and then the tech crash happened and in a 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: very very short period of time, our business just dried up. 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: And you know, I felt a real responsibility for that 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: and tried to put on a mask and pretend that 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: everything was fine. But you know, it really wore me 21 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: down having that mask, and eventually I had to leave work. 22 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: I wasn't capable of working. I'd had episodes of depression before, 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: but nothing like this. This was lasted for five years. 24 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: I've out of work for five years. I had to 25 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: go live with my parents because I couldn't look after myself. 26 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: And I remember one day just being in a kitchen 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: with my mom up at Foster and she I was 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: just saying, why me, why me? And she said, just 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: experience to help other people, and I thought I was 30 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: just not possible whatsoever, But it did so as seed 31 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 2: and I eventually recovered and wrote my first book, Back 32 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: from the Brink, where interviewed twelve well known and everyday 33 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 2: Australians who've been through some really tough times came back 34 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: from it and it was launched at the Blacktop Institute 35 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: by Professor Gordon Park at the time, and it became 36 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: a best seller. And what I really realized, because we've 37 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: got a lot of publicity in a two weeks following 38 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: the launch and I had lots of talkback radio, lots 39 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 2: of book signings, was that most of the people that 40 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: came for help were actually the loved ones of those 41 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: that were struggling. And that was a real epiphany for 42 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: me because I didn't realize how much my illness was 43 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: affecting my family around us. Book did well. Through that 44 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 2: I was introduced to Gavin Larkin, who was the founder 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: of value OK in March two thousand and nine, and 46 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: when I heard the essence of it, I just knew 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: insuitably that it was right and I just said, you, 48 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: I'm very happy to be an ambassador, but I'm all in. 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: And so we had an incredibly small team, only really 50 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: four people in that very first year, and you know, 51 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: through having a really strong sense of purpose and very 52 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: good connections, all of us were quite pret well connected 53 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: in the corporate world. And we had that very first 54 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: launch in Parliament House in Canberra where Gavin I and 55 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: Nicola Roxon, the then Health Minister, launched the very first. 56 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: Day and for Greek Korean, for our international listeners who 57 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: may not have heard of are UK Day, like, it 58 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: is huge in Australia, right. 59 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: When was when was it POSH. 60 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: Launch two thousand and nine? 61 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: In a nine years so it's been going for about 62 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: sixteen years and it's really going from strength to strength 63 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: and I every year there's a big focus on In fact, 64 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: there's a whole week that kind of ends up around it. 65 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 3: It must be very very satisfying to have played a 66 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 3: significant role in getting that up and bringing that awareness 67 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 3: into the workplace. 68 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: It really is, Paul. You know it the first year 69 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: when surprisingly well, we had like three hundred companies participated 70 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: in the Workplace program, but now it's you know, in 71 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: one hundreds of thousands of organizations that now participate. And 72 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: the beauty about workplaces is that if someone adopts it, 73 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: you could get ten thousand people. You could get you know, 74 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: one hundred, you could just get five, but it's a 75 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: great leverage point. We had no real money at the start, 76 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: and so everything we did was digital, you know, digital resources, 77 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: post is. We really embraced social media like no other 78 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: mental health charity had at that time, and it has 79 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: just really really grown. And in that very first year, 80 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: Gavin was able to get people like Hugh Jackman to 81 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: support it and Simon Baker and you know, some local, 82 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: well known people as well, and that just gave a 83 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: bit of momentum. But ultimately what made it successful was 84 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: the power of stories. Gavin had his own story of 85 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 2: losing his dad to suicide, and I had my own 86 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: story of surviving a suicide attempt and you know, being 87 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: profoundly grateful that I didn't go in that same direction. 88 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: So we had an immediate bond and you know, we 89 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: just believed in it so much. I think we're unstoppable. 90 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 3: I it's interested you talk about your gratitude in surviving 91 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: your own suicide attempt. 92 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: I was talking with Nick Brax the. 93 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: Other day, who you know, he does a lot of 94 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 3: stuff in this mental health space, and he was talking 95 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 3: about people who try to commit suicide by jumping off 96 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 3: the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. 97 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: And there's been. 98 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 3: Thirty five people who have survived it, and I think 99 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: one of the survivors interviewed every other one, and all 100 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: of them said the second they jumped off, they regretted 101 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 3: their decision and were so grateful that it didn't actually 102 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 3: come about. 103 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: When did you know. 104 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 3: That something was seriously wrong with you? That wasn't just 105 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: a transitory low mood state. 106 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: It actually happened quite young. You know, we're not thinking 107 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 2: second year of university, but that time, and that's going 108 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: back a while now, in the you know, the late seventies, 109 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: there was very little awareness around what depression was. And 110 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: I just had this real insomnia and sense of anxiety 111 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: and just viewing that it was never going to go away. 112 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: You feel that way out for a while, and then 113 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: since that early time, I've probably had about four or 114 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: five other episodes, but the last one, which led to 115 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: me losing my job, was by far the worst. You know, 116 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 2: as I said, I tried about twenty five dent types 117 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: of medication, I had ect, I had you know, psychologists, kinesiologists, 118 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: and it just I couldn't shake it. But Mum's I 119 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: guess message or encouragement did sell a seed. And for 120 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: me it was sort of like a few things that 121 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: really work. Starting to walk really regularly each day and 122 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: getting out up to about forty five minutes or so, 123 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: reconnecting with old friends and family who you know, I 124 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: guess i'd withdrawn from because I felt ashamed of not 125 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: being able to get out of it. But when I 126 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: caught up with these people. 127 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: It was good. 128 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: It was really good. And then the real transformation was 129 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: when you go from me me struggling to thinking about we. 130 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: And I had this idea of writing the book which 131 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: had real stories of a couple of gold medal swimming 132 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 2: olymp Olympians and you know, Margaret Ollie, the icon of 133 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: the art world, and Les Murray, Australia's most famous poet, 134 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: and their stories, but also other stories gave people hope, 135 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: And I've got lots of emails that letters, and they'd 136 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: always would mention a person that really inspired them, and usually, 137 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: not surprisingly, it was someone like them and so, and 138 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: then those books then led to meeting Gavin Larkin. 139 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, And isn't it interesting that that there are so 140 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: many people that well, clinical psychologists who recommend it, but 141 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 3: people that I've talked to had mature depression. Was that 142 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: when they shifted their focus from themselves and their internal 143 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: world to the external world and trying to help others, 144 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: that that stuff starts to sobtly shift right, and then 145 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: they get a bit more motivation to do things, because 146 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 3: I guess that's the worst thing, isn't it. It's the 147 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: it's the a motivation that just that just lack of 148 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 3: desire to do anything in that deep clinical depression I'm 149 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 3: talking about not moderate depression here, that can be all consuming. 150 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: And the thing that's so devastating about it, Paul, is 151 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: that you you feel one hundred and ten percent convinced 152 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: that you'll never recover right, your actuallessness, hopelessness, real hopelessness, 153 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: and you know, it's that lack of hope, and it's 154 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: also massive uncertainty, you know, you're not working and what's 155 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 2: going to happen to you? But I really found, as 156 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: I said, you know, the book really helped because I 157 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: was working on a project that I hope would help 158 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: other people. 159 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 3: You're busy, You've got a sense of purpose. You know, 160 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 3: there's there's there's there's something to do in the day. 161 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 3: I mean, this is what I've heard some great advice 162 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: about it for depressed people. 163 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: Do stuffs with your hands, be creative. 164 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: You know, do some wood work or paint or whatever, 165 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 3: because then you've got to be completely focused when when 166 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 3: you use your hands, so much of your brain is 167 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 3: actually dedicated to that that you that that the thoughts 168 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 3: can stop. 169 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: Now let's let's let's pay and. 170 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 3: Talk about the workplace, because because you're a bogs all 171 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 3: about the workplast and you're a bit of an expert 172 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: in this area. The I mean, I'm familiar with some 173 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 3: of the stats, but just for our listeners, like how 174 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 3: big a problem is stress but bon out in the workplace, 175 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: and then maybe we can then talk about the. 176 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: Difference on the overlap between bonote and depression. 177 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: Sure well, one of the I guess key stats is 178 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: work by Mercer, which showed that eighty one percent of 179 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: people are worried that they could burn out in the 180 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: next year. Some recent research from Wiley sure that thirty 181 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: six percent of employees are severely stressed each week. And 182 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: what's even more worrying is that forty seven percent of 183 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: managers one and two managers experience severe stress. So that's 184 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: sort of an over you which knows how pervasive it is. 185 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: And you know, when I was in really bad shape, 186 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: and this goes back, you know, almost twenty years ago, 187 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 2: it just wasn't talked about at all. And thanks to 188 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: the work Are You Okay and the Black Dog and 189 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: Beyond Blue and Sane in Lifeline, there's been great progress 190 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: made there. But it counts for So I just mentioned 191 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 2: forty seven percent of managers feel severely stressed, and yet 192 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: managers determine seventy percent of the engagement and the well 193 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: being of their team. This is Galler research, very extensive, 194 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: so you can see if you've got a manager or 195 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 2: one or two managers that are really struggling. If they 196 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: can't look after themselves, they can't help other people to 197 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: the same extent, So you know, managers are really carrying 198 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 2: a load they're often you know, in the middle between 199 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: the senior leadership and the front facing staff. But they're 200 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: finding it very difficult. 201 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: And it's interesting that you mentioned that because I often 202 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: talk about most people here will recognize that emotions are contagious, right, 203 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: And there is well well researched body of work around 204 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: emotional contigation, and particularly around leadership and managers in the 205 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: workplace that they set the emotional tone. And you know, 206 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: people can get this just from an individual, Like everybody 207 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 3: knows an individual who can light up a room like 208 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 3: a Christmas tree, and everybody knows an individual who's a 209 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: complete energy vampire who can suck the very life force 210 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: out of them, right, and an entire room in two 211 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 3: minutes flat. 212 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 4: But with. 213 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: With leaders and they have. 214 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: A disproportionate impact on the emotional tone of the group, right. 215 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 3: So that stat that you said is particularly worrying. If 216 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 3: half of our. 217 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: Managers are really struggling, that is just going to flow 218 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: through the teams, isn't it. 219 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: And ironically, and maybe because of it, there is massive 220 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: change going on at the moment. You know, the whole 221 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: AI in the workplace is just having profound impact and 222 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: that's why it's so important for managers to really I 223 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: talk about a moodometer, you know green zone and zone 224 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: red zone. We are the green zone, you're thirty one 225 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: percent more productive, thirty seven percent better at sales, and 226 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: two hundred percent better at creativity. So the green zone. 227 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: There are so many good reasons for businesses to embrace this, 228 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 2: but they don't really have a finger on the pulse. 229 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: Some do have, you know, these snap poles which provide 230 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: good feedback and quick feedback, which is great, but most 231 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: don't have it as an organizational measure. For example, you know, 232 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: if you had to rate out out of of ten 233 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: everyone in the workplace, where ten is where you're energetic, resourceful, persistent, 234 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: and read is where you know you're ashamed and anxious. Now, 235 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: measuring that, I believe is an incredibly important metric to 236 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: have in place. So look at look at everyone, look 237 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: at then look at managers, and look at leaders and 238 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: be able to monitor that risk because people are throwing 239 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 2: things at it like EAP or apps and that sort 240 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: of thing, But in my experience, there's not many that 241 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: are actually regularly monitoring it, taking considered action and experimenting 242 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: with what could work and then revisiting it. And looking 243 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: at where we are now and what we need to 244 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: do for the next ninety days to sort of move forward. 245 00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 246 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: I like that because I remember when I was researching 247 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 3: my PhD. There's a similar mood aumentary they didn't call up, 248 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 3: but thats been used in the military. 249 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: I think it was the British military. 250 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 3: And they find that and they had definitions of green, 251 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: amber red, and they find that that it was much 252 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 3: easier to open a conversation by saying, hey, hey, Graham, 253 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 3: you know you're looking at an amber today. Is everything okay? 254 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 3: And they found, particularly in that cohort, that that that 255 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 3: did opened the doors for people to have conversations because 256 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 3: it reduced the stigma as well. But I think to 257 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: your point with AI coming in, you know, we're living 258 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: in an increasingly vocal world. That's a term that came 259 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 3: out of the military to describe this the changing nature 260 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 3: of warfare volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And we know 261 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: that that volatility and uncertainty amplifies any stressor that there 262 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: actually is. That's that's the key thing, right, is that 263 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 3: when you throw one certainty into already stressful environment, it's 264 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: just it's just a time bomb. So let's I mean, 265 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 3: let's talk about the thing that we can do about it. 266 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, I think if me and you were. 267 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 3: In charge of workplaces, we would probably say, hey, you've 268 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 3: got to you've got to use the menometer in the workplace, 269 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: and the CEOs and all the executives teams bonuses would 270 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 3: be tied to that. Right if your team is orange 271 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 3: and red, you don't get your bonus right now that 272 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 3: that clearly ain't going to happen. But what what are 273 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: the sort of things that we could do about You 274 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 3: talk about occurring CEO, and you know, what does that 275 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 3: actually look like from that leadership team down? 276 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've interview now ninety what I cocurring and they're 277 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: leaders are champion a culture of care and a culture 278 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 2: of high performance, both those things and some people think 279 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 2: they're different things, but they're incredibly correlated and one contributes 280 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: to the other. And so it's been wonderful to be 281 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: able to share the stories of leaders like Mike Schneider 282 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 2: at Bunning's pac Rea, former CEO of Ramsey Healthcare and 283 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: not others basically to see what they do, which is 284 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: a little bit different, and the way they lead teams 285 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: is that it's really they understand that employees are always 286 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: asking three questions, do I belong here? Is it safe 287 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: to be myself? And are we growing together? And the belonging, 288 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 2: as you would know in the military, that the sense 289 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:04,239 Speaker 2: of belonging in small focused teams is what separates the 290 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: good and the great teams. The next thing is about safe. 291 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: It's about psychological safety, and that's when people can be 292 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: their authentic selves. It's safe to make suggestions and not 293 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: have it dismissed out of hand. It's safe to challenge 294 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 2: ideas you don't agree with. And then the third element 295 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: is really growing together, and that's in encouraging people to 296 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: take intelligent risks. We can't wait anymore to have one 297 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: hundred percent of the right knowledge before we act because 298 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: of the burger environment you talked about, and so taking 299 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: intelligent risks is something that Amy Edmundson, who's been researching 300 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: teams psychological safety forever, you know, just shows with overwhelming 301 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 2: proof is the best bridic of innovative and successful teams. 302 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: So this, you know, what people used to call soft leadership, 303 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: it is now strongly to It's more important, ever than 304 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: being able to understand people where they are, but also 305 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 2: to be able to inspire them by you know, lighting 306 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 2: up the purpose in them and seeing how they play 307 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: the role in contributing to that purpose of the team 308 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: and the organization. 309 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 4: That has also been proven, I think in the toughest crucible, 310 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 4: I often thought my listeners will have heard me talk 311 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 4: about the Hanoi Hilton prison camp in Vietnam. 312 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you're familiar with a greed, but 313 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 3: I interviewed Lee Ellis on the podcast, who spent five 314 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 3: and a half years in the Hanoi Hilton, and he 315 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 3: said to me that Jim stock Deal, who was their leader, 316 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 3: and he said that there hit Jim and the other 317 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 3: leaders had an unrelenting twin focus mission and people, mission 318 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 3: and people. And he said it was all about those 319 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 3: two things, and it was about They used this thing 320 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 3: called the tap code when they were in confinement where 321 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 3: they could tap on the. 322 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: Walls and and and and it. 323 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 3: They told me that it was the tap code was 324 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 3: the glue that held these guys together. That you've been 325 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 3: tortured and you come back in your cell just to 326 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 3: have the gag. The next sel tap to you and 327 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: tell tell them that they tell them that you loved. 328 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: You and that your hair form and you know you 329 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: can get through this. 330 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 3: I mean it's being tested in the most extreme environment, right, 331 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 3: So I think that's hugely important that it just shows 332 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,239 Speaker 3: how cur and high performance can go together, very very 333 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 3: very strongly. And one thing I wanted to double click 334 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 3: on is psychological safety. So you did a pretty good definition. 335 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 3: I made a pretty good definition of it, and I 336 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 3: think it's it's worthwhile going back to talk about what 337 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 3: psychological safety is and what's psychological safety isn't, because I 338 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: think that's us the important because some people this word 339 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: of safety I think is starting to be overused in 340 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: the psychological realm and people are like, it is not 341 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 3: impinging upon your psychological safety. If someone's having a tough 342 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 3: conversation with you about your proformance, that's not what it is, right, 343 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 3: It's not being psychologically See, it does not mean that 344 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 3: you can't be held to account. 345 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: So told us about what the original research and your 346 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: understanding of it, what it is and what it isn't. 347 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, as I mentioned before, Amy Edmondson first really identified 348 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 2: or named it, and it actually happened in her thesis, 349 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: her PhD thesis, and she was very well known in 350 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: hospital and medical sectors. And she had these objective measures 351 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: of team effectiveness and cohesion, and she also had objective 352 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: measures of reported mistakes and problems. And she went in 353 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 2: expecting that the best teams had the least mistakes, but 354 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: they actually had more. And at first she said, this 355 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 2: just doesn't make sense, but when she dug a little deeper, 356 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 2: she just realized that the bad teams wouldn't known up 357 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: to mistakes. They'd hide them. And if you hide mistakes, 358 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: you can't address them sort of things. So that was 359 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: the original start, and then there was a real breakth 360 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: through article New York Times called what What Google Learnt 361 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: in its quest to build the Perfect Team? And I 362 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 2: remember reading it and it was Google looked at. It 363 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 2: was called Project Aristotle, and they had two hundred and 364 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: fifty factors to look at about all these teams around 365 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 2: the world. And at first they thought it was individual qualities, 366 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: you know, like more high potential, more diversity in the team. 367 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: But what they actually found was it was how the 368 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: teams work together. And as you said, it doesn't mean 369 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: you can't have tough conversations, but you have them with 370 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 2: respect and care, and people can tell the difference. And 371 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: then how that then translates is that in a team environment, 372 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 2: you have to get the best knowledge in the team 373 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 2: to help make those decisions. So if anyone just is 374 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: really dominant and say this is the way we're going 375 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: to go, this is it, it just destroys psychological safety. 376 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 2: And so in psychologically safe teams, people speak approximately equally, 377 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 2: so everyone's invited to contribute. Now it doesn't mean it's 378 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: a democracy, but people feel heard of part of that. 379 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 2: So that's it leads to risk taking, intelligent risk taking, 380 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 2: faster learning, and improved performance and success. And if you 381 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 2: get that right, you can have robust discussions around dependability 382 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: and timelines. If you don't have psychological safety, you don't 383 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: get the real truth of what's going on, and projects 384 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: can go completely off track. You also, you know, have 385 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: a greater sense of working together as a team and 386 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: an ownership of ideas and commitment to implementing the ideas 387 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: the team comes up with. 388 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: I think that that is hugely important. 389 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 3: And let's bring it back to performance because I often 390 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 3: run workshops based on Partland Chilney's model of high performing teams. 391 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. 392 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 3: Both right down at the bottom is trust and and 393 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 3: it's a deeper level of trust that's tie into psychological 394 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 3: safety right where, and that then enables productive conflict. 395 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: So this this idea of productive conflict. 396 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 3: I always say the teams, like, if everybody's agreeing that 397 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,719 Speaker 3: that is not the most productive team you should be having, 398 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 3: you know, passionate debates about the organization, you should be 399 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 3: having sometimes productive conflict. 400 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: But you're paying it playing the ball, not the individual. 401 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 3: That's where the psychological safety comes in, right, because if 402 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 3: you don't have that, then in Lenchoni's model, you can't 403 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 3: really commit. And how many times everybody listening to this 404 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 3: will have been in a meeting at some stage where 405 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: they'll have somebody the leader, like you said, who's gone right, 406 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 3: this is the way, this is the way we're going 407 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: to everybody agree, and everybody's nodding, and. 408 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: In their head they're going, what a lot of bullshit. 409 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 3: And what they often do because they haven't been heard, 410 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 3: is that they they're there not committed, and in the 411 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 3: worst they can go in sabotage and got a lot 412 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 3: of bullshit that is right, and that just ends up 413 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 3: in lack of productivity. So this's all plays in from that, 414 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: and I really like the way that you've created that 415 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 3: link between KERR and high performance, right. 416 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: I think it's hugely important. 417 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 3: And let's talk about In one of your chapters, you 418 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,239 Speaker 3: talk about mental patterns, and let's just explore that a 419 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 3: little bit. 420 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the things for self care I 421 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: think is mindset and how you think. And there's probably 422 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: three people that really helped me in terms of their 423 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 2: body of work, and one of those was doctor Christine 424 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: Nefs and she's a real pioneer in self compassion and 425 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 2: what she has shown overwhelmingly that self compassion is when 426 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 2: you treat yourself the same way you would treat a 427 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: close friend or a close family member. We speak much 428 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 2: worse for ourselves often than we would ever speak to 429 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 2: someone outside. And her work shows overwhelmingly that it has 430 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: all the upsides of self esteem but none of the downsides. 431 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: So self esteem, you know, has people striving to be great, 432 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 2: but it's at the expense, often of other people. Comparing 433 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: yourself to other people being narcissistic. 434 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 3: I was going to saying, particularly if you're narcissistic, it's 435 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 3: not it's not that good. 436 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 2: That good, So that that was the first pit that 437 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: I think is great for all of us to remember 438 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: to cut ourselves from slack and from a performance perspective, 439 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: you are more resilient, more of a risk taker if 440 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: you are self compassionate. 441 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: And again, Graham, let's say what it's not. 442 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,239 Speaker 3: Because self current and self compassion isn't going home and 443 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 3: going you've had a hard day you need That's okay, right, 444 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 3: that's different. 445 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: It's cutting yourself some slack because as you know, Paul, 446 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 2: we have a negativity buyas, so we can have four 447 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: things during the day. I go, well, one goes bad. 448 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: What do you think of one thing that's bad? And 449 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 2: the silk compassion is a reminder that it didn't work out. 450 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: I tried, it didn't work out. But what can I 451 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: learn from this? 452 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: Can I? 453 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: How can I go forward? Sort of thing. 454 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 3: You've got some data, You've just run an experiment. You've 455 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 3: got some data that you can use moving forward. Night. 456 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very much. And the second one is the 457 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 2: growth mindset by Carol Dweck. You know, that's just the 458 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: deep bodied research that she has now which shows that 459 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: people tend to fall into two categories, fixed mindset and 460 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: growth mindset. Fixed mindset believes well, that's very good at 461 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 2: public speaking, so I'll never be good at it. That's 462 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: the fixed mindset. The growth mindset is I'm not good yet. 463 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: That's the big word yet that. 464 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: Heartful world language. 465 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely, and it is about again cutting in celsim slack, 466 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: but keep on learning, keep on trying. And the third element, 467 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: which I think is important, is around the concept of 468 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: how we think about stress, and it's Kelly McGonagall has 469 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 2: a book called The Upside of Stress where she goes 470 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: into that and she has found that how you think 471 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: about stress determines whether it's good or bad. So if 472 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: you think it's bad, you will actually suffer implications, you 473 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: will actually have harm from that, whereas if you think 474 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: it's if you reframe it or rethink of it, this 475 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: adrenaline is helping me to prepare for high impact stuff. 476 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 2: You know, if you think about it that way, it's 477 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 2: been shown to have much much less harm. And you know, 478 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: she's shown that people have high stress but have this 479 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: mindset of just reframing it live much longer than people 480 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: that have low stress that don't have that mindset. So 481 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 2: there are three elements of mind. 482 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: I would add to that. 483 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 3: A Greham along those lines and the research because I 484 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 3: dog up into this a bit of my PhD. So 485 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: the research of Mark Siri at the University of Busslo 486 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 3: and also Adrian hass Or Husse and around challenge and threat. 487 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 3: So it's very aligned to it that when you view 488 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 3: something as a challenge, it actually opens up your cardiovascular system. 489 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 3: Your blood vessels daily at blood flow and oxygen increases 490 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 3: to your brain, dopamine is released. 491 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: Your everything is. 492 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 3: About engagement, whereas threat actively its cordisol and shuts your 493 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 3: cardiovascular system dying and that cortisol lingers in your blood 494 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: for ours right, So it actually has an impact on 495 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 3: both your psychology and your physiology and has lingering effects 496 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 3: in your body. I think that stuff is so so powerful. Yeah, 497 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 3: you know we view stress as a bad thing. See, 498 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 3: if we didn't have stress, we would not be the 499 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 3: dominant species on earth. 500 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing that physiological side, because I really 501 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: hadn't heard that. And you know, as I know you really, 502 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 2: stress mind body connection is so related. You know, it 503 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 2: shouldn't be surprising that it goes to a physiological level. 504 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 2: What it's just lovely to hear that extra dimension. 505 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 3: So let's talk about then the intersection between mental health 506 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 3: and physical health. I think we're going to be on 507 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 3: violent agreement on this, but you talk about it in 508 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 3: your books. So what are the kind of big rocks 509 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 3: if you like that the people can do to actually 510 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 3: nourish and good mental health. 511 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, the great leader's care mindset is self care, crew care, 512 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 2: rezone care. So we've talked about the crew care. First 513 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 2: one is self care and one of the I in 514 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: my third book, I said that over four thousand people 515 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: to work at what worked best in their recovery, and 516 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: it basically came down to three things what I call vitality, intimacy, 517 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 2: and prosperity. So vitality is around a physical activity, you know, 518 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 2: it's around moving well, eating well, resting world. The intimacy 519 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: is about having caring and supportive relationships around us at 520 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: work but also at home. And you may have heard 521 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 2: of the Harvard Adult Development Study, the longest rule being 522 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,959 Speaker 2: study ever done. The best outcomes come from people having 523 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: caring and supportive relationships around them. So that's the eye 524 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 2: and then the pers for prosperity. And this is our 525 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 2: career well being, but it doesn't necessarily just mean our 526 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: work well being. You know, if you work for a 527 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 2: sports team or volunteer for charity or your religion, it 528 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 2: can be just as helpful as actual paid work. So 529 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: they're the three categories vitality, intimacy, prosperity. And so I 530 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 2: say to people, you have to act like a VIP 531 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: each day, and that's not being a wanker. It means 532 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 2: that you top up each of those three categories well 533 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,439 Speaker 2: being each day. And I know I saw looking through 534 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 2: your podcast, guess it'd had professor Sonia Libermirski there. Yes, yeah, yeah, 535 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: huge fan of hers. And you know, my message, which 536 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: is really based on her findings, is that if you're 537 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: master your mood, you're mastyr life, and which is quite 538 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: funny coming from someone who is depressed for five years. 539 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: But as you know, she identified that our mood or 540 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 2: what psychologists call positive effect, is determined by three things. 541 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: Our genetics, which we really can't control, our situation or 542 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: our circumstances, and there's often not much that you can 543 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: contribute to, but our intentional actions, and the genetics contributes 544 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 2: fifty percent, our situation ten percent, but our intentional actions 545 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 2: is forty percent. And so deciding if you have if 546 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 2: you're not doing the right thing, deciding when aware you 547 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: can just do one thing that will make a difference. 548 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: That's a really really good start. And part of the 549 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 2: self care is a scorecard where there's five different questions 550 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 2: in those sort of three categories to try and help 551 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 2: people to understand what might be their mood vampire, what's 552 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 2: the thing that could be pulling them down the mood ometer. 553 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: So that's the self care that I talk about. 554 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 3: And if you just having been somebody who has been 555 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 3: through pretty severe depression, when we talk about those actions, 556 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 3: like what are some concrete actions that you find Boo 557 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 3: from your own personal experience and from your research, that 558 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 3: people can actually do tangible things they could do on 559 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 3: a daily basis if they if they find themselves struggling. 560 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 2: It's a really good point, Paul, because I think the 561 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 2: biggest thing for people that are slipping down the mood 562 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: ometer is to really take a step back and not 563 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: look too far ahead. Just look at one week ahead, 564 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: but decide what you're going to do to have a 565 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: planner on your actions each week. So when are you 566 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: getting your exercise, how are you getting good sleep, good 567 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 2: rest during the day, how do you eat well? And 568 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 2: it's something that I do each week on a Sunday, 569 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 2: I plan in that area about my physical health. I 570 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 2: then plan about my intimacy or emotional health, and I 571 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 2: work out who who I'm having contact this week, who's 572 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 2: good for me? You know, people that you feel better 573 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 2: being around, not someone that rips your energy from you. 574 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: And then the same with prosperity. You know, if I 575 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 2: only do three things this week, what will have the 576 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 2: greatest impact. And so it's just choosing a few things, 577 00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: but also scheduling and if we decide when and where 578 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 2: we're going to do it. Peter gold Which's research shows 579 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 2: us that we're three hundred percent more likely to do it. 580 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: And so when I was, you know, very much not 581 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 2: quite at the bottom of my journey, but you know, 582 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 2: probably about a third of the way through, I just 583 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: really found that only look from one week ahead and 584 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 2: focusing on a few things that would top up each 585 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 2: of those sort of three categories. 586 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: I love this idea of sketching. Here was that again, 587 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: Peter who. 588 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 2: Goalwit is it? In Why You? It's a fascinating finding, 589 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: it really is. And it happened he discovered it by 590 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 2: giving his undergraduates a project complete and they basically had 591 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 2: to write about what happened in the holiday period, the 592 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 2: Christmas period. They give me assignment I think on about 593 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: two days before the break for Christmas and they had 594 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 2: to admit it on December twenty six, so very busy time. 595 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 2: But he gave one group one additional struct instruction and 596 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 2: that was when and where you going to do it? 597 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 2: So you're going to do it on your dining room table, 598 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: We're on the randa. Were you going to do it? 599 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 2: And you know, he found that there was a three 600 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 2: hundred percent greater implementation by actually committing that way. 601 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 3: That that is awesome and it plays in with the 602 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 3: whole idea. I think it was Professor Colin call A 603 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 3: Newport around time boxing and yeah, because that had a 604 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 3: big impact on me because I used to keep less 605 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 3: all the time. But he's like, get that list and 606 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 3: poot the stuff into your calendar. Actually schedule it in 607 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 3: your calendar, and then you're way more likely to do it. 608 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 3: I also to add on to that, what I found 609 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 3: has been very very useful for me and for others 610 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 3: that I've worked with is this idea of a ritual 611 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 3: board that I call it, where it's a little board 612 00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 3: with you write down the things. 613 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: That you're going to for yourself. You know we've talked 614 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: about to sleep, the exercise, and you. 615 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 3: Put your targets in there for the week, and every 616 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 3: time you see it you try and do something. And 617 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 3: that that ticking off, I think that is it does 618 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 3: two things. Number one, it's the trigger the reminder to 619 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 3: do the behavior. This is bj Fogg stuff from Stanford University. 620 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 3: And having that visual reminder even better if you put 621 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 3: it in your calendar. 622 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: Right. 623 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 3: But then the ticking it off, that is what releases 624 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 3: dopamine in the brain. 625 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: Right, then do it further. 626 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 3: Right, It's like motivation follows action, not the other way around. 627 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. And that's how Juri Seinfield attributes his prowess 628 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: in jokes because he committed to write a joke every 629 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 2: single day and he ticks it off the calendar and 630 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 2: he still doesn't. He writes a joke every single day. 631 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,879 Speaker 2: So yeah, the physical and the mind come together when 632 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 2: it happens. 633 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I still use my bathroom mirror for stuff, right, 634 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 3: I write stuff in my bathroom mirror. 635 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: That just reminds me around, Right, let's do this. 636 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 3: And I like to do things for forty days, so 637 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 3: I'll just ride it my mirror and kind of take 638 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 3: it off because it is so easy for us to 639 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 3: slip into like the the size of the hurdle to 640 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 3: not do a behavior is just ridiculous, isn't it. You 641 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 3: know we can, we can be very good for short 642 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 3: periods of time, but but how do you systematize this? 643 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 3: And this is kind of what you're talking about, is 644 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 3: systematizing this stuff, isn't it. 645 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 2: I think I read pull that your an elite karate practition. 646 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: Right now retired. 647 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 3: I had a brief interaction with with with karate and 648 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 3: ended up winning the Australian Masters Committee title. 649 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 1: But I said, that's to me really but it was masters. 650 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 3: But but what I did on that, because you know 651 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 3: I wasn't I obviously didn't have any background in it. 652 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: All these guys are black belts. I was a white belt, 653 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: but I got. 654 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 3: My sense a to show me I only I couldn't 655 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 3: even kick because of my hips, so all I could 656 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 3: do was punch. Now, I had done a bit of boxing, 657 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 3: so I knew about distance and timing. 658 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: But I just. 659 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 3: Videoed him doing the move and got him the video 660 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,479 Speaker 3: me and then I would watch both in slow motion 661 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 3: and see where it was, and then I would just 662 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 3: do it. 663 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: Over and over and over and over again. 664 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 3: So I had like two moves that I just had 665 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 3: drilled into. 666 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: My nervous system right, all just through repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. 667 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: That's how the brim works, right and the motor system. 668 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 2: What a great case study. 669 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well it was, I thought, and I got 670 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 3: that from Anders Anders Erickson, I think psychologist who's written 671 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 3: a great book. I can't remember what it's called, but 672 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 3: his whole thing was practice doesn't make perfect perfect, practice 673 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 3: makes perfect right. 674 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: So that's what you've got to do. So game, what 675 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: we do need to close up here? 676 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 3: But what would your message be both for leaders who 677 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 3: might be listening to this and also what would your 678 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 3: message be for individuals for them to be a contributing 679 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 3: member of a high perform and high kurting. 680 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 2: Well for individuals, it is really just about you making 681 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 2: your well being a priority. There's lots and lots of distractions, 682 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 2: but blocking out time for those really important things it's 683 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 2: just as important as work. You know when exactly you're 684 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 2: going to do exercise? How are you going to get 685 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 2: into a routoo in a good sleep, so that that 686 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 2: really is looking at quite you know, quite analytically. The 687 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 2: second thing is making time for better relationships, and that 688 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 2: can often happen through rituals. You know, every Sunday I 689 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 2: meet two mates at kurl Cole Beach in Sydney. We 690 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 2: walk up to Manly, come back and have have breakfast 691 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 2: and it's over a long period of time and of 692 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 2: course there's lots of carrying on and putting crap on 693 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 2: each other, but you know, we've been done so long 694 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 2: that you know, we've had really really serious discussions as 695 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 2: well about financial problems or relationship problems or kids problems, 696 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 2: and you know those when you can be vulnerable with people, 697 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 2: others respond, others respond and then you have a really 698 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 2: really tight knit there and the saying goes with our 699 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 2: workmates as well, so that's really important element. And then 700 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 2: the third component is more the work of a career 701 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 2: related just thinking about you know, what can I do 702 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 2: that would really make a difference. And you mentioned how Newport. 703 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 2: He's got a book called Deep Work. He absolutely shows 704 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 2: how to do that. That if we put it in 705 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 2: our diary and we give enough time as well, like 706 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 2: twenty minutes won't do it even forty five minutes. He 707 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 2: basically talks about two or three hours to do something 708 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 2: really substantial over that period of time. They're the missing 709 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 2: from individuals. From a team perspective, it's just really asking, 710 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 2: you know, do we feel connected? Are we interacting well? 711 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 2: Do we feel that we belong? The second element is, 712 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 2: you know, everyone learning about psychological safety and leading with it. 713 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 2: It's not just the team leader anymore. Every person can 714 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,839 Speaker 2: create or destroy psychological safety where people can be their 715 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 2: most innovative and successful. And the third element is basically 716 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,359 Speaker 2: encouraging each other to take intelligent risks. You know, how 717 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 2: can we better serve our customers, How can we better 718 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 2: serve our internal colleagues? What can we do that would 719 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 2: make a difference. So they're the individual and team things 720 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 2: that I'm talking about, and free listeners. On my website, 721 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 2: Graham coun dot com, I have there what's called a 722 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 2: weak Care Credo and it includes the things that determine 723 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,239 Speaker 2: you know, the champion, the self care, the crew care, 724 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 2: and the red zone care and you can download that 725 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 2: on there. And there's also another program which is for 726 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 2: people in the red zone, which is called how to 727 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 2: support a teammate in distress. And it follows an I 728 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 2: care acrement eye as how you identify them, see how 729 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 2: you show compassion and listen with empathy. I access experts. 730 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 2: You know, doctor gp eap ours for revitalizing work. You know, 731 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 2: work is good for recovery, work is good for our 732 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 2: world being. And there is exercise. You know, there's a 733 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,800 Speaker 2: poster that people can download to be reminded of that. 734 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,320 Speaker 1: That's very cool, excellent. 735 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 3: So Graham, look, look, thank you, thank you for your work, 736 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 3: and thank you to your mother for that that little 737 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 3: bit of advice that actually spurred you into action and 738 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 3: has helped you to help so many people. So listeners. 739 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 3: And the book is called Grant Leaders Care. But even 740 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 3: if you're not a leader, it would be worthwhile you 741 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 3: getting a copy of that book because there's lots about 742 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,319 Speaker 3: individuals as well. Then and just jump onto Greencinon dot 743 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 3: com and look at some of those resources. 744 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,239 Speaker 1: Graham, thank you very much for your time. 745 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed our chat, and 746 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 2: as you said, I feel there's lots of overlap in 747 00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:58,320 Speaker 2: our work. 748 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: Absolutely, ik spat