1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Kay Cooper, welcome back to the Mental Well, thanks so much. Mark. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Now you're just for those people who didn't hear us 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: in previous podcasts. You're the CEO of okx Australia, which 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: is a cryptocurrency site for people to trade with crypto 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: correct by sell whatever. But I just quickly want to 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: just talk about some of the other things you're doing. 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: You are the coach of the Digital Economy Council of Australia. Indeed, wow, 8 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: that sounds like a heavy duty title in that environment. 9 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: Lead one of the most advanced regulated digital finance transformations, 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: definitely that Australia's ever seen. You were the first out 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: of social media for the UK government. 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 2: Indeed, way back when fifteen years ago. 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: Still like that would have been fairly daunting because who 14 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: held and you about social media fifteen years ago? I differently, 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: no one, No one sort of me. You now know 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: about it, and I do want to talk about leadership 17 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: in a technological world or technology world. What does it 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: take to be a good leader in an environment like that? 19 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: Very good quick question. I think one of my favorite 20 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: quotes is Ray Kurtzwell and he says, the pace of 21 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: change will never be this. 22 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: Slow again, back when, back when, or. 23 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 2: Again he said it about twenty years ago, but it 24 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: still applies. And in fact, I would say that the 25 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: pace of changes is increasing exponentially and it presents a 26 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: massive challenge not just for organizations and institutions, but us 27 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 2: as human beings. Technology is changing faster than our biology 28 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: can change. And so you know, given that leaders in 29 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: the world are also human beings, I think it's incumbent 30 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: on us to continue to build our skills set in 31 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: the face of that ever changing environment. And one of 32 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: the things that I'm really focusing on at the moment 33 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: is the role of judgment in particular decision making, especially 34 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: in a human machine shaped world where actually it's very 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: easy to default judgment to machines or dashboards or models. 36 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: And it's one of the things that I'm really focused 37 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: on from a leadership perspective, and focusing on not just 38 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: being a passenger on the ever march of technology, but 39 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: actually be an author in that environment and actually be 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: an author of one's own leadership style, one's own future, 41 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 2: as a leader, one's team's future, and not just kind 42 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: of be a passenger in that environment. 43 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: Would a leader not use AI or a leader use 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: AI then try and work at out how it works 45 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: for themselves. I mean, how does this work because it 46 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: is a shortcut. 47 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So a few things on that thing. Number One, 48 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: I believe everyone should be using AI, and I think 49 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 2: if you're not using AI, you will be left behind. 50 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: You need to master those skills. But I think that 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: in saying that, we have to use AI in a 52 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: very particular way. And there's a kind of an equation 53 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: that I think about when I think about judgment in 54 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: the face of those that AI information and the information 55 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: coming from those models. And it's actually something that's featured 56 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 2: in my new book Edge, which was launched a couple 57 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 2: of days ago, and it's a field guide for navigating 58 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: tech driven change. And so the equation that I always 59 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: turned to has kind of two parts to it, inner 60 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: clarity an outer impact. And if you have inner clarity, 61 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: ie you based yourself, your decision, your behaviors on what 62 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: matters most to you, then that provides a solid foundation 63 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: that no matter what a model tells you, no matter 64 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: what information you get, that's your foundation. And then you 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: have to think about, well, what is the outer impact 66 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to have in the world. If that's what 67 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: matters most, and I think balancing those two things means 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: that we It certainly restores authorship, It restores for me 69 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: myself as a leader exactly. Agency is a really good 70 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: word to describe it, and I think that's one of 71 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: the things that we're most at risk of defaulting on 72 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: with technology change, but in particular as AI is accelerating, 73 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: and so for me, that balance is the way that 74 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: you maintain your edge in the face of tech driven change. 75 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: So let's just look at inner clarity. And I guess 76 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: we're diving into your book. Now, where's my copy of 77 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: the book? 78 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: By the way, it's winging its way. It's just at 79 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: the printers, and I'm getting picking up this afternoon. 80 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: We should send one around. The boys will put it 81 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: up on the show. But in a clarity, is that 82 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: values driven? 83 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: Look, listen, you can look at it in the context 84 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: of your whole life, but I think it's much more 85 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: useful to look at it in a particular problem you're 86 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: trying to solve, or a particular challenge you're trying to overcome. 87 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: And so let's imagine I'm going to think about a 88 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: challenge that I'm. 89 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: Say growth is flat lining. 90 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're flat lining growth. Theoretically, for me, I would 91 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: be looking at, well, what is the most important thing 92 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 2: in that context, I'm CEO of Okax. We are a 93 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: crypto exchange. The most important thing for me is the 94 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: sameafety and security of our users, and that would be 95 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: the thing that for me and it's the thing I 96 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: do anchor to every day in my job. And then 97 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 2: I think, well, if the most important thing is the 98 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: safety and security of our users and their assets, what 99 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: impact do I want to have in the world that 100 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: reflects that that inner clarity, the clarity that both myself 101 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: and my team have. And so for me, that really 102 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: is about when you mentioned it earlier, regulation, It's about 103 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: how do we operate with integrity. How do we make 104 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 2: sure that the security settings are the absolute top in 105 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: the world. How do I signal that to our users? 106 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: And so those are That's the kind of way that 107 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: I would start to kind of anchor the growth challenge 108 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: that a lot of businesses face. Because of the world 109 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: in which I operate. 110 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: It's slightly less technologically dense for me to draw another 111 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: example of that, maybe those people who don't quite understand 112 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: what your business does. For example, Quantus will talk about 113 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: safety and safety is there inner clarity, it's they're very 114 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: clear on what that when all. 115 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: Else comes away profit shareholders, that's the number one thing 116 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 2: they have to get right. 117 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: And if everyone in the place can be clear on that, 118 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is then you've got to 119 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: tell people about that because and that in itself may 120 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: help growth because people go at the end of the day, 121 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: I want to be safe. I'm on a plane, I 122 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: don't want to find out sky, and I don't want 123 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: to go with the organization as the best record. So 124 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: just to open up what you're saying about a clarity 125 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: that's very clear, and me, as a consumer of flying, 126 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: I will go with quantus. If that's a clear objective 127 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: of mind is to be safe. 128 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: Probably on Maslow's hierarchy, that's a fundamental requirement. You then 129 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: might move up into wanting to have an enjoyable trip 130 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: and on time trip, all of those things. But fundamentally, 131 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 2: if you can as a leader pull your entire organization 132 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: around that as being the anchor and act accordingly, have 133 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: your behaviors act according to that, then that is the 134 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 2: thing that keeps your human judgment in the face of 135 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: endless dashboards. The data coming at you from all angles, 136 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: the models telling you different answers depending on the way 137 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: that you put the prompt in, and that for me 138 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 2: is the anchor that keeps me kind of settled in 139 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: a world that's constantly changing. 140 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: You mentioned them word judgment leaders, especially, they are required 141 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: by judgments often, Yeah, And judgments need to be based 142 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: on something. Yeah, the judgment needs to be based on 143 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: a value, some value, something that we need to achieve. 144 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: So on the case of the quadras are on your case, safety, security, 145 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: correct the judgments that you're making where you don't have 146 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: to rely on AI, or you can scan what AI says, I. 147 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: Can use it as an input. Yeah, right, So I'll 148 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: take it as an input of one of the many inputs, 149 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: like the data that I have on you know are 150 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,679 Speaker 2: you or like the feedback that we have on trust pilot. 151 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: So it's one of the many inputs. But I, as 152 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: the leader of the business, need to be able to 153 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: filter all of that and be able to understand where 154 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: I need to make decisions quickly, where perhaps I need 155 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: to slow things down and make decisions more slowly, taken 156 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: more inputs in order to make sure it's as good 157 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: a decision as it can be. 158 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: That's interesting. So if in your industry, somehow safety and 159 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: security or security of data, etc. Was so well regulated 160 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: that there was this stupid statement to make but became 161 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: impossible for there to be security errors, and as a 162 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: result of that, everyone competing with you. The most important 163 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: in a clarity was about fees or costs, let's say 164 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: it was constant transactions. Do you have to be able 165 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: to pivot as a leader, do you have to be 166 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: able to audience? Just stick to your guns and add 167 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: pivoting to it, because you know, people have become wedded 168 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: to the fact that, okay, X is heavy on security, 169 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: but all of a sudden everyone else talks about pricing. 170 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: When do you let go of that? Really important in 171 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: the curry. 172 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: I don't think it's an either or I think it's 173 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: probably are both. It's another so of course, like value, 174 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: pricing absolutely is part of the equation. But if you 175 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 2: haven't got that solid foundation, then frankly the rest of 176 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. But absolutely do I have to consider 177 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: what is the best value for money? Now, value for 178 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: money doesn't always mean cheapest. Sometimes it can mean reach exactly, 179 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: or sometimes it can mean the most controls in place 180 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: which costs, you know, a fair amount of money to 181 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 2: have in place and is reflected in the fees. But I, 182 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 2: as a user, know that I'm with the safest exchange 183 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: out there. And the way I think about it is 184 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 2: in reversible versus irreversible decisions. And I think that there 185 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: are some things that are reversible. We can change our 186 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 2: fees all around, but up up exactly. However, things that 187 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: in this context that we're talking about are irreversible are 188 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: fundamental decisions around around trust. And I said, as I said, 189 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: safety and security. And so for me, where you've got 190 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: those irreversible elements that are baked into the DNA of 191 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: whatever it is that you're doing, then that's where you 192 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: need to take the time. You need to really focus 193 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: and be very, very deliberate. 194 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: So it's all good for people like you and I 195 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: to make these statements in front of a microphone and 196 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: a camera now, and you and I have done it 197 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: on stage together, by the way, indeed that the team 198 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: has to follow you. Indeed, let's talk about communications of 199 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: a leader. How does a leader community? How often does 200 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: a leader communicate without boring everybody to death? And with 201 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: that look like you're trying to jump you down this throat, 202 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: then there's probably more how is it delivered? That's more 203 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: about how I guess. 204 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: And that's the outer impact piece, right, So if you've 205 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: got the inner clarity, then you're thinking, well, the outer 206 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: impact you haven't. As a leader, you're fun The outer 207 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 2: impact you have is through your team members, And in fact, 208 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: you can be much more powerful as an individual if 209 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: you are enacting through other people, not just through your 210 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 2: own you know kind of role in the world. And 211 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: so for me, there's a few lessons I've learned over 212 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: the twenty five years that I've been leading teams. A 213 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: you can never over communicate, but you should always say 214 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: the same thing consistently. It's it still amazes me twenty 215 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: five years on how many times I have to say 216 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: the one thing over and over again in order for 217 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: it to land with different people who listen in different ways. 218 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: And as a leader, you need to be clear and 219 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: consistent on the core message, but probably deliver it in 220 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: multiple ways so that you're speaking into the listening of 221 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: the team, not just speaking in the way you want 222 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: to speak. And I think that's really important for me, 223 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: and it's been a key lesson that I've learned over 224 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 2: the years. I've got it wrong many many times, and 225 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: now I try and tune exactly how I speak to 226 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: the different audiences that I have in my role, which 227 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 2: are many and varied. 228 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: This sounds like the way our phrase. This probably won't 229 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: sound great, but would it be fair to say as 230 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,479 Speaker 1: a leader, to communicate effectively, you nearly need to profile 231 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: into categories your audience. You might say category one not 232 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: necessarily better than anyone else, not better than two or 233 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: three or four. But category one is those people are 234 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: good listeners who take notes and don't take me literally, 235 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: but can interpret me to category two as people will 236 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: take me literally. So I'm going to be speaking a 237 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: literal way to those kind agree three might be blah 238 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: blah blah. Categargy. Foe might be the drifters who thinking 239 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: about something else and they need to be told ten 240 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: times instead of one time. Do you actually sort of 241 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: let's call it profiling as to a word, but profile 242 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: these individuals or groups or how do you do that? 243 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: I think personally, yes, I do. Like do I try 244 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: and understand the people who I'm speaking to. 245 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: That's a bit of way saying understanding. 246 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: But yeah, not profiling. That it sounds such a sinister 247 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 2: but no, absolutely to understand the different motivations, the different 248 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 2: learning styles of those individuals, of course, and I think 249 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: that it's incumbent on you as a leader to be 250 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: able to evolve your communications style in order to speak 251 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: to those different styles. And actually I think probably rather 252 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: than thinking about it, it's like a drifter or a 253 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 2: really organized person in my team. You know, I've got 254 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: people who are lawyers, who are compliance professional who are 255 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: risk professionals. I've then got people who are in HR, 256 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: who are in finance. I've then got people who are 257 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: in operations, so you can see I've got salespeople. So 258 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 2: you can imagine the spectrum of different personality types that 259 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 2: are in place over the team, and I need to 260 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: adjust the way that I communicate. For example, to the 261 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: legal team, it's very factual, evidence based, whereas to the 262 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: HR team it might be a little bit more intuitive 263 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: and about what is the general sense of the feel 264 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: of the culture that's going on. Exactly with the sales team, 265 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: it's very results driven communication and focusing on those elements 266 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: so you can get a sense of in an environment. 267 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: And of course what I'm describing is replicated in many 268 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: organizations across Australia. I think that's the most important thing. 269 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: But I'll be saying the same message to each of 270 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: those groups of people. So you know, safety and security 271 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: is something that we've taught. It's about I will make 272 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: sure that I land that call message, even if I 273 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: have to say in many different ways and through many 274 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: different mediums. It's not just about the spoken word the 275 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: written words. We have a system similar to Slack, so 276 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: that's a core communication channel for us as well. 277 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: So you use Slack and when you're talking to your team, 278 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: you know that in that's well, there could be different 279 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: conversations with different teams within Slack, but you use that 280 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: medium to make sure you get your try and make 281 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: get your core messages out of them to the different 282 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: groups in the different languages perhaps, or the different cadence 283 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: or the different phraseology or whatever the case may be. 284 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: But it's always hitting the core things security and safety, security, safety, security, safety, 285 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: but in a different format correct like different words perhaps 286 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: or correct. You might be doing it twice a week, 287 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: or once a week or once a month as an update, 288 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: you try to wind it into the other messages that 289 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: you might be talking to about. 290 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: Correct, do you want me to tell you about a 291 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: time I got it hopelessly wrong. 292 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they tell me because it because I mean, 293 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: I've had the same experiences. 294 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So rewind. When was it fourteen years ago? 295 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: I was a new mum. I just had my first child, 296 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: and I was also running a business, so I couldn't 297 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: take any maternity leave. I was getting three hours sleep 298 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: in every twenty four. Everyone needs to say, when the 299 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: child sleeps, you sleep, and I was like, no, when 300 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: the child work, it sleeps I work. And that was 301 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: just when Slack had first come out as a tool, 302 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: and I, because I had no ability, real expertise in 303 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: how to use it as a tool, I thought that 304 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: by putting an update in Slack, things would be done 305 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: and the team would get the message. Now, aside from 306 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: all the backgrounds of being tied and all the rest 307 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: of it, I think that I very quickly learned that 308 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: the team were not experiencing it like that. The team 309 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 2: were just experiencing a tirade of barking orders from me. 310 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: And what was happening is I was being very directive 311 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 2: but not providing them with the context. And without the context, 312 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: it's actually very difficult to activate other people's agency and 313 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 2: their own sense of accountability. And I actually had a 314 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 2: senior member of my team resign a few months later, 315 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 2: and in her resignation talk, she was very clearly told 316 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: me that the team had experienced me as kind of 317 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: like barking orders at them and that it didn't go 318 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: down very well. And it was a real moment for me. 319 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 2: Of a I was horrified that that's how I'd come across. 320 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: But when I stood back and thought about it, I thought, 321 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: I can really see how me sending orders vi slack 322 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 2: in one sentence comments, where previously emails with paragraphs had 323 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: been the main communication tool, could really come across in 324 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 2: that way. And it was the moment where I realized 325 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: I needed to soften and change my communications style and 326 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: provide the context that people need in order to then 327 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: be able to filter whatever it is you want them 328 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: to do or to action in a way that actually 329 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 2: means they have ownership and accountability. And that's been It 330 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: was a horrible moment in my career when I was 331 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 2: given that feedback, but at the same time, I'm probably 332 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: is probably one of the things I'm most grateful for 333 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 2: because it stopped me in my tracks and it said 334 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: you need to do something different. 335 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: Well in terms of communication as a leader and as 336 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: a team member senior team member. How often do you 337 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: think that one should be mindful of the fact that text, 338 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: even if it's beautifully written in pros and language and 339 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: curated for a particular audience, et cetera, how often do 340 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: you think it needs to be supplemented with actual meetings 341 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: in person because text can be misunderstood and misinterpreted, particularly 342 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: from the rest point of view, depending on the mood 343 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: they're in. Yes, bloody Hill, I thought it a good 344 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: job because you don't know anything they're thinking, and then 345 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: they receive your response to them, might take it as 346 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: a slap, you know, like you're not happy with something 347 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: they've done or whatever the case may or you just 348 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: forgot the praise of for something that they had done, 349 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: and because you just want to get this thing through. 350 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: How important is it to meet people in person and 351 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: how do you do that as organizations grow? 352 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 2: Did you know trust is built most strongly when humans 353 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: look in another human being's eyes in person. Zoom doesn't 354 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: cut it, Zoom doesn't keep I think it's been again 355 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 2: a fascinating journey over the last five years where obviously 356 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: COVID took us into work from home and being using screens, 357 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 2: and of course that has a place, But I passionately 358 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: believe that face time with people is incredibly important, not 359 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: just because of what the science tells me about how 360 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: trust is. 361 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: Built faceed on, not not not electronic face extra fac 362 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: face face time. 363 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. In our business, we have two anchor 364 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 2: days a week Tuesday and where everyone is present in 365 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: the office appointment. It's required, it's mandated. I have a 366 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 2: strong preference that people are also in on a Wednesday, 367 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: and actually quite a lot of people choose to be 368 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: in four or five days a week just because they 369 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: get so much value out of the face to face 370 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: contact with their colleagues. And I think that's really really important. 371 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: If I think about us as a global business. We 372 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: have fifty billion customers globally, We're active in most countries 373 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: around the world, and time face to face with my 374 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 2: colleagues in the US or in Singapore is some of 375 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 2: the most valuable time that I've had in terms of 376 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 2: building rapport and relationships, and it's made me so much 377 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: more able to then function executionally with them when I'm 378 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: back on shore in Australia and remote because we've built 379 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: that trust. 380 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: So let's just say you in a thousand employees, let's 381 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: just say that, and let's just say they're in Australia. 382 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: You're not going to have a moment with a thousand people. 383 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: How do you? How do you do that? I mean, 384 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: do you get everybody together like two hundred a time 385 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: or fifty at a time? 386 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we have in our business, we have regular 387 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: town halls, which would you explain with a town hall 388 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: is basically a coming together of multiple departments. Usually in 389 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: the case of ours, it's one hundreds, if not thousands, 390 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: and the company invests in that time together in person 391 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: in order to build that connection and that rapport on 392 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: that way of working. So it's definitely something that we 393 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: prioritize and that I prioritize. It's not always feasible, and 394 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: there's ways that you can still build rapport, Like I 395 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: sometimes think, let's assume Zoom is your tool of choice, 396 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: that we get very executionally focused when we get on 397 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: a Zoom call, And actually there is times and ways 398 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: you can build rapport through the screen as well. But 399 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 2: I think the reality is nothing is better than I 400 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: to icon tapped with another human being. 401 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: I think channels have become actually post COVID became more popular. 402 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: And by the way, we do go the town hall. 403 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: We actually call the channel only because I guess it's 404 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: some sort of throwback from earlier days where you went 405 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: to a town. 406 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: You literally went to the town hall to the mayor 407 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: or who. 408 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: May exactly, and that's that's incredibly important and having a leader, 409 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: a good leader, I presume this is what you guys do. 410 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: Is a good leader has this all set out in 411 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: a diary or your people, colleagues or know what the 412 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: diary looks like. They know when they're expecting one of 413 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: these town halls, or they know when the expect there's. 414 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: A regular cadence. So in my business, we have a 415 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 2: Tuesday morning stands up, which is mostly in person, and 416 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: then we have a monthly town hall, which is where 417 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 2: we bring everyone together, including those who. 418 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: Maybe monthly are yes, well. 419 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe a colleagues who aren't involved in the day 420 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: to day but need to be aware of what's going 421 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: on or are interested to learn from some of our experiences. 422 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 2: So that's yeah, that's something that it's not always in person, 423 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: but it's definitely team time together to go away from 424 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: the my new show of the day to day, take 425 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: a step back and think about what's important, Where are 426 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: we going, what are our priorities? 427 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: So how easy is it for a leader to underestimate 428 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: the interest and the perspective well being or having a 429 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 1: perspective of your colleagues and your staff, Because sometimes assumption 430 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: has made ull You've got your job and go do 431 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: your job, turn up, do work, go home. But your 432 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: staff and your colleagues, they're actually like to know what 433 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: the context of everything they're doing. So what do you 434 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: do in these town halls? I mean, what would you 435 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: ordinarily talk about? 436 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,719 Speaker 2: Usually I talk about what I see is going on 437 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: in the world in a very fascinating geopolitical environment at 438 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: the moment, and that is having a material effect on 439 00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: most businesses. 440 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: So you're talk about like what's going on Russia and Ukraine. 441 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 2: Or yeah, absolutely, because that will have well in our business. 442 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: We're a cryptocurrency exchange that affects the price volatility, and 443 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 2: whilst we're not in the business of giving advice to clients, 444 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: we need to be aware of what clients are experiencing, 445 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: so that macro geopolitical economic environment actually really matters to 446 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: our business, and we don't always have the time and 447 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: capacity to take a step back and look at what's 448 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 2: going on in the world. So that is absolutely the 449 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: kind of zoom out version. And then we'll go into, right, 450 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: what's the plan for the year, Then we'll go into 451 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 2: what's the plan for the quarter, and then we'll go 452 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: into what's the plan for this month, this week. 453 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: And. 454 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: Providing context around what's happening around the globe with our 455 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: business is really important as well, like what what what 456 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 2: does our global CEO star see? That's that's important. What 457 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: are we seeing going on in other jurisdictions like the UAE, 458 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: which have been you know, kind of very material for 459 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 2: us as a group. And I think that the team 460 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 2: have regularly given me feedback that providing that kind of 461 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: macro perspective really helps to anchor them in their day 462 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: to day and understand what matters. And again it comes 463 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: back to that inner clarity that we talked about earlier. 464 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: Inner clarity is actually about what fundamentally matters, and I 465 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: think that context really helps. 466 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: I like that what fundamentally matters, I think particularly not 467 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: just the stuff, but to your customers too. Yes, I'd 468 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: like to go back to where we sort of started from, 469 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: back to regulator environments. And I know you're big on 470 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: this is a topic. What's this digital assets legislation that's 471 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: before Parliament and in particular the Economic Impact Report which 472 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: is going to launch a March. And third, what are 473 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: we talking about? 474 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, and it's a really good step back, isn't it. 475 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: And looking at the industry, I think one of the 476 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 2: things that I'm really passionate about why do the job 477 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 2: I do is the productivity opportunity that is available to 478 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: Australia not just because of crypto but because of the 479 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 2: digital finance ecosystem as a whole, which is basically the 480 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: digitization of the finance system as we know it. And 481 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 2: for me, one of the things I wanted to do 482 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 2: coming into this role was actually quantify that impact because 483 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: one of the things that we know that supports that 484 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: productivity gain is clarity in regulation, and we wanted the 485 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 2: government to be very very clear with us as an 486 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: industry about what they wanted to see regulated. And so 487 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: we've worked with the Digital Finance Cooperative Research Center and 488 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: the Digital Economy Council of Australia to produce an Economic 489 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: Impact Report which quantifies the productivity gain on an annual 490 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: basis of digital finance in Australia, and we released the 491 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 2: initial findings back in May, and that productivity gain was 492 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: nineteen billion dollars a year. 493 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: So maybe you just take me a bit so digital finance, you, 494 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: I mean decentralized finance, and I was taking it away 495 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: from let's call it the banking system, but putting it 496 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: into the digital environment. Are you saying that there is 497 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: productivity benefits correctly doing it that way? In other words, 498 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: thinking maybe happen faster. Thing's happened faster. 499 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. I had to transfer three 500 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,959 Speaker 2: thousand dollars Australian dollars to the UK to top up 501 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 2: my UK pension accounts. I went to my bank, put 502 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: in the very detailed ISBN number. The amount did not 503 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: arrive in my UK account until four days later. Now 504 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 2: what's happening in those four days, Well, there's multiple counterparties 505 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: that that money goes through, each of which take a 506 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: clip of the ticket. I actually don't know where that 507 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 2: money is. Like, I'm sure I could trace it if 508 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: I really needed to, but I actually don't know. And 509 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 2: so the technology that we're seeing come in now underpinned 510 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 2: by distributed ledger technology also known as blockchain technology, is 511 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 2: helping to make that transaction happen in an instant. So 512 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: I pushed the button in Australia and it arrives in 513 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 2: my UK bank account within a second. And so when 514 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: I talk about digital finance, I'm talking about all the 515 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: examples where that delay happens, the risk that occurs when 516 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 2: that delay happens, and mitigating for all of that, which 517 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: means that we're able to as consumers, have access to 518 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 2: digital money at the touch of a button. 519 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: And by doing that, it's created a more efficient correct system. 520 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: Which when we use technology to create more efficient systems, 521 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: whether it's in finance or any other part of the 522 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: world for them and like it can be getting a 523 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: like one day, once upon time we said dig holes 524 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: with a spay and a shovel and a pitchfork. Now 525 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: we use an excavator correct And that's just an example 526 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: of technology. But it was much more productive, much more, 527 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: much more efficient in terms of time should be cost 528 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: to what you're saying here is in terms of productivity 529 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: for Australia. For Australia, there's a number of transactions that happened. 530 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: In what you're just explained, there's just probably millions of transactions. 531 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 2: Especially given there is such a strong migrant community. 532 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: In Australia sending money back overseas all the time. All 533 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: the time you're saying that those platforms that allow this 534 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: to happen, that people can dial into to happen, they 535 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: need to be regulated too, though, because you don't want 536 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: to go in to the wrong places, you don't want 537 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: to go. 538 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: Anywhere, you want to preserve safety and security. It's just 539 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: fundamentally what regulation is about. 540 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: You know. And we did have the Royal Commision not 541 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: that long ago that actually quite a few of the 542 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: banks got into trouble for transferring money to places they 543 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't have been transferring, they shouldn't have been facilitating, for 544 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't their fault, but it was facilitated by bad 545 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: actors here in Australia by the way. Yes, and so 546 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: this productivity, it's actually cleaner, but it is much more efficient, much. 547 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 2: More efficient, also transparent, because I can track that money 548 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: where it is if it wasn't happening in an instant 549 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: I can track exactly where it is and where it goes. 550 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 2: Whereas at the moment, it kind of goes into a 551 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: black hole. I have no idea. 552 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: It goes into a counterparty system. So because you know, 553 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: like you, let's say your accounting with Common Bank for arguments, 554 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: say Common Bank might not have a branch in wherever 555 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: it's going to. Then they've got to find a counterparty 556 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: their counterparties. You've got to find another counterparty, and it 557 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: might not be the same bank as the bank you're 558 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: trying to send your own money to Correct, So there 559 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: might be three or four interlockertory steps between here and 560 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: the final destination. And it is inefficient. Yes, it costs 561 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: a little bit, a little bit of dough maybe maybe 562 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: it's a rebucks in it, but it's also if you 563 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: added up across all the transactions that happening in correct system, 564 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: there's millions. We're talking billions of dollars. 565 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: And it's not just individual user transactions like you and I. 566 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: It's also institutions exacting in that way. And so the 567 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 2: opportunity for digital finance is that all of that system 568 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 2: becomes more efficient, more effective, and more transparent. 569 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: So what are you speed to get released on much third? 570 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: So we're going to release the final findings, So As 571 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: I say, back in May, we quantified the productivity gain 572 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: at nineteen billion dollars per annum. That's equivalent to about 573 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 2: one percent of GDP. Imagine if we could free that 574 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: up for Australia every year, how we could reinvest that money. 575 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 2: I can't reveal the final number, but I can say 576 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: it's definitely higher. And so on March third, we'll talk 577 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: about where does that productivity gain come from and importantly, 578 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 2: what are the regulatory settings that need to be put 579 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: in place in order for Australia to realize that gain. 580 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: The good news is we're already on the path. We're 581 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: having new legislation brought in this year that really provides 582 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 2: the safeguards to allow for digital finance to flourish but 583 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: in the most safe and secure way possible. And now 584 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: we're working with Government of done in Canberra next week 585 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 2: to make sure that that infrastructure can be brought to 586 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: Australia as quickly as possible. 587 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: And in your leadership role, this is my final question too, 588 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: but as a leader of Okay, do you feel as 589 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: though it's incumbent upon you to step up and be 590 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: part of these changes. 591 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's one of the things I guess the golden 592 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: thread in my career has been being a change maker. 593 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: And I see a better world as a result of 594 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: these changes for everyday Australians as well as our businesses 595 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: and our institutions. And so for me, what is my why, like, 596 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 2: aside from providing a safe, secure environment, what is my 597 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 2: why for getting out of bed in the morning? What's 598 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 2: the inner clarity I wake up with every morning? It's 599 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: the opportunity to provide safe, secure, transparent access to financial 600 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: services for everyone, because I know what that enables in 601 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: people's lives, in people's businesses. It enables them to buy houses, 602 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: it enables them to set up their own business, it 603 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 2: enables them to fund schooling dot dot dot. And so 604 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: for me, if I can provide that in a more 605 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 2: accessible way, at a at a lower cost, in a 606 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: way that's one hundred percent transparent, that for me is 607 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: something I can do to make a difference in the world. 608 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: And what motivates me well? 609 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: And I guess the ultimate goal, you know, in an 610 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: economic sense anyway, for the national economy is productivity. That 611 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: we need to be more productive and just about everything 612 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: we do in a straight In fact, our productivity has 613 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: been dreadful over the last few years. In these simple 614 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: steps which are going to be not going to be 615 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: led by government, can be led by businesses. Correct, because 616 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: there's sort of in your interest is to work as well, 617 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: but you want to but you want it to work 618 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: in a safe, safe environment. Yes, So therefore regular that 619 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: in this case regulation makes sense. It does. 620 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: We've been asking for regulation for I've been championing it 621 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: for five years now in the space because I believe 622 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: in the technology. I believe in the infrastructure that companies 623 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 2: like OKX bring to the table, and it can be better. 624 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 2: But I also believe that it needs to be delivered 625 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 2: responsibly and I think regulation is one of the ways 626 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 2: to achieve that. 627 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: Okay Cooper, thanks very much, CEO of Okax Australia. Thanks 628 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: very much. Where I want to thank you is for 629 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: being on the front foot, being prepared to stand up 630 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: for these things and explaining clearly what it's like to 631 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: lead through technological change. 632 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: Thank you. 633 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: Thanks make appreciate it.