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Speaker 1: There's always one decision you can make that saves you

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Speaker 1: a million other decisions, and that was the one. The

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Speaker 1: hardest decision we had to make, is when we're going

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Speaker 1: to choose to step away from the conflict despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that the US was going to stay there in Nati,

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Speaker 1: We're going to stay there. And we just didn't make

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Speaker 1: that hard choice when we should have just dragged on

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Speaker 1: and on and on. So we could have gone out

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Speaker 1: a lot earlier it with a decent result, and it

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Speaker 1: still would have been the same outcome, but we didn't.

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Speaker 1: We doubled down there.

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Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say that I love my country.

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Speaker 2: I love my country of Australia so much. I love

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Speaker 2: it so much I became Australian, and to be honest,

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Speaker 2: if push came to shove, I would do whatever my

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Speaker 2: ancient body filled with prosthetics could do to defend what

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Speaker 2: we have here. I probably would be very useful with

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Speaker 2: any kind of weapon in my hand, but I'm sure

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Speaker 2: I could be helpful.

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Speaker 3: I'm someone that grew up around the military.

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Speaker 2: My mum worked as a civilian doctor for the eightyf

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Speaker 2: fifteen years, and so I came to understand what it

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Speaker 2: means to.

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Speaker 3: Be in the army.

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Speaker 2: And once I started traveling the world, you know, first

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Speaker 2: to Europe and then other places in the Middle East,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, South America, North America, far away from the

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Speaker 2: safety of my country in Australia, I saw it with

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Speaker 2: my own eyes.

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Speaker 3: How sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Credible consequence is required to ensure that diplomacy can work.

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Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that absolutely

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Speaker 2: everything possible should be done to avoid any kind of violence. However,

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Speaker 2: sometimes the decision to move towards violence is made by

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Speaker 2: another party and then it leaves governments with very few

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Speaker 2: options on the table. But what happens when our government,

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Speaker 2: our Australian government's decision to send our military to a

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Speaker 2: war zone under the auspices of protecting our country. What

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Speaker 2: happens when that decision.

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Speaker 3: No longer serves us.

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Speaker 2: What happens to the men and women that we send

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Speaker 2: to the other side of the world on these missions.

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Speaker 2: What happens to them when they come back? What's the

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Speaker 2: effect on their families. In recent years, it's fair to

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Speaker 2: say that the Australian SAS has come under intense scrutiny.

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Speaker 3: Today you are going to meet Mark Wales.

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Speaker 2: He is a former SAS commander who's probably going to

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Speaker 2: surprise you with some of his views on national security.

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Speaker 2: It's a very solid chat. Stokedy came along first.

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Speaker 1: Up.

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Speaker 3: I've got a place, some mats to keep the light.

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Speaker 2: Sign of the fridge fall here at BTYHQ back after

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Speaker 2: the break.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to this show.

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Speaker 2: It's better than Yesterday, helping you make today better than

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Speaker 2: yesterday since two thousand and thirteen.

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Speaker 3: My name's Osha Ginsburg. Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 2: I'm a podcaster, best selling author, husband, dad, stepdad, keynote speaker,

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Speaker 2: cargo bike rider, audiobook listener to a late night massage

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Speaker 2: balls squealer and.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you're here today. Yeah. Look, I'm fifty.

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Speaker 2: I watched TV line on the floor with the massage

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Speaker 2: ball going, but it means I can sleep well, that's

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Speaker 2: why we leave the subtitles on. Thanks for the DMS

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Speaker 2: about Monday's episode. I've always lovely to hear from you. You

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Speaker 2: can find me on Instagram or you can just reply

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Speaker 2: to the mailing list. Easy to sign up. It's at

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Speaker 2: Oshaginsburg dot com. I've got a new website.

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Speaker 3: Very happy about that.

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Speaker 2: Also, thank you for the person that sent me a

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Speaker 2: video they were not driving. It was a video of

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Speaker 2: them listening to an episode a couple of weeks back,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly this ad came on in Dutch. So if

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Speaker 2: you're hearing ads in other languages, good for you. So

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Speaker 2: you know me, You know I love the TV show Survivor.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 3: I think it's the best.

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Speaker 2: I think it's probably the greatest, if not the greatest

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Speaker 2: game humans have ever invented. So when the chance to

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Speaker 2: chat with Mark Wales showed up, I was stoked. Mark's

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Speaker 2: been a two time competitor on Survivor. He won it

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two. Brilliantly, may I add, So with

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Speaker 2: all the Survivor goss right here in my house, how

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Speaker 2: much do you think he and I talked about Survivor?

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Speaker 3: Very little, very little.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, Mark Wales is a former SAS commander.

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Speaker 2: He joined the Army at seventeen. Eventually he made ten

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Speaker 2: deployments including tim Or, Lesti, Solomon Islands, Fiji, Lebanon, and Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: In our conversation today we talk about sleep, mental health, unviolence, trauma,

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Speaker 2: parenting and what life is like in the military. And

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Speaker 2: today Mark very generously shares his experiences in the military

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Speaker 2: and also how he dealt with trauma and PTSD. He's

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Speaker 2: got some interesting things to say around the misconceptions of

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Speaker 2: the sas and also the challenge is faced by our soldiers.

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Speaker 2: You might not think much if you're not in a

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Speaker 2: military family, or we haven't been around the army. You

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Speaker 2: might might not cross your mind to think about what

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Speaker 2: it means for Australia to send our people into war.

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Speaker 2: I think after today you may think about it somewhat differently.

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Speaker 2: Mark is not only a fascinating man whose geopolitical knowledge

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Speaker 2: is super sharp, he's an excellent author. He's pender best

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Speaker 2: selling autobiography it's called Survivor, and his latest book Outriter Well,

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Speaker 2: it's a novel and it's set in the woody forests

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Speaker 2: of Victoria in the high country, but I'll let him

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Speaker 2: fill you in on that, so it'd still be in

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Speaker 2: sci fi my favorite. You can buy both books through

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Speaker 2: the link that I've got there in the show notes. Now,

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Speaker 2: like many people that I have met who have seen

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Speaker 2: battle ex military people, they are not at all the

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Speaker 2: action hero gun ho super army soldier that you think

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Speaker 2: they might be.

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Speaker 3: They're men and women.

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Speaker 2: Who know what it means to be in battle, who

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Speaker 2: know what it means to be at war. And without exception,

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Speaker 2: every one of these ex service men and women that

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Speaker 2: I have met and I consider friends, every one of

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Speaker 2: them have all spoken about how hard we need to

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Speaker 2: avoid going to war in the first place, at the

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Speaker 2: same time as how important it is that we have

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Speaker 2: a defense force in place. It's a delicate balance, let

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Speaker 2: me tell you that. But it is fascinating hearing that perspective.

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Speaker 2: I loved having Mark around. It won't take you long

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Speaker 2: to figure out why.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy the chat. Thanks for coming around, mate, Thank you

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Speaker 3: for having me. I'm good. I'm good.

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Speaker 1: It's been a busy time, but I just enjoyed being

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Speaker 1: in Australia and we're lucky to live here. It's a

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Speaker 1: good place.

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Speaker 2: Now you've opened the batting with that. So let's because people,

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Speaker 2: you know, this podcast were running ten years. People listen

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Speaker 2: to old episodes and sometimes I'm like, I've got to remember,

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Speaker 2: that's right, So we're recording this on the seventeenth They yes,

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Speaker 2: And on the weekend there was a horrific mass murder

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Speaker 2: at Bondo Junction.

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Speaker 3: Or a bloke with a very large and ife killed

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Speaker 3: a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: And then last night there was something online streaming church service.

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Speaker 3: There was a kid, fifteen year old.

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Speaker 2: Kid like yeah, and in that on that on Saturday night,

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Speaker 2: Audrey and I were talking about I lived in the

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Speaker 2: States for ten years. I was like, fuck, scary my

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Speaker 2: brother and his husband in Detroit, the live in Detroit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, I'm just so grateful that we have public

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Speaker 2: health care and be just don't have access to.

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Speaker 1: Guns I had. I think I had two years in Philly,

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Speaker 1: two years in New York. And it's a constant source

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Speaker 1: of stress. Is that knowing that there's threats around and

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Speaker 1: there's I have a lot of issues in the US,

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Speaker 1: and we just don't have me here because of various

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Speaker 1: reasons about our countries have kind of developed.

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Speaker 3: But we're lucky. Yeah, we are amazingly lucky.

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Speaker 2: And as much as I disagree with pretty nearly everything

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Speaker 2: that the Howard government did to take guns off the street,

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Speaker 2: to put it up, debate it, pass it, and get

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Speaker 2: it done, I think twenty weeks or something thing like

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Speaker 2: did it.

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Speaker 1: He sees the moment is I think the rates for

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Speaker 1: gun violence dropped dramatically.

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Speaker 2: Everything everything about it was handy to go against his base.

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Speaker 2: And there's that famous the famous photo. Somehow the press

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Speaker 2: photographer got behind him and you can see he's wearing

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Speaker 2: a vest, yeah, under a suit that was tailored for reverse.

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Speaker 2: Took a lot of courage to do that, to go

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Speaker 2: against the Yeah, but could clearly see what could happen.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sure you've had conversations when you're in the States.

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Speaker 2: The reasoning is like, well, I need a gun because

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Speaker 2: he's got a gun.

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Speaker 3: Because he's got a gun, I need another gun.

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Speaker 1: There's holes all through it isn't there, and it's just

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Speaker 1: I remember I was there during the Sandy Hook.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, I was.

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Speaker 1: I say I was there.

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Speaker 3: I was in Philly, but I remember that debate happening.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, if they don't, if they're not able to

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Speaker 1: change things after this, there won't be a change.

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Speaker 2: It's I left in twenty fifteen and Audrey and I

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Speaker 2: were talking about this on Saturday night. They pretty much

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Speaker 2: doesn't make the news if it's less than five people.

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Speaker 3: No, that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: I know. This weekend was a big deal in Australia.

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Speaker 1: It's terrible what happened. It's also telling this stuff really

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Speaker 1: happens in Australia, very really happens, So we are lucky.

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Speaker 2: How wire you on Saturday as someone who has part

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Speaker 2: of the job of the military is Hey, I get

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Speaker 2: to live my life where I watch Blue with my

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Speaker 2: kid and cry, you know when the for sale sign

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Speaker 2: is there, and I know I get to do that

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Speaker 2: because I contribute to a pool of money that pays

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Speaker 2: people like you to get trained incredibly well to go

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Speaker 2: and the rubber meets the road on my country's diplomacy

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Speaker 2: when people like you go out and do the thing

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Speaker 2: so I don't have to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, it was.

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Speaker 1: I always get that bit of a shock obviously when

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Speaker 1: something like that happens. But I go through, especially in

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Speaker 1: shopping centers. I go through there. I'm always waiting for it.

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Speaker 1: It's I shouldn't, but I go to shopping centers. I'm

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Speaker 1: going this is a place where if you meant harm,

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Speaker 1: you would come here and you could get a lot

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Speaker 1: of people easily. So for me, I kind of I've

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Speaker 1: always got that in the back of my head, but

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Speaker 1: that seems like a really random, isolated, yeah incident, someone

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Speaker 1: with those issues that would do that, So you know,

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Speaker 1: hopefully it's very rare and stings like that.

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Speaker 3: Did, like because I was really unprepared.

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Speaker 2: On Saturday night, I was at dinner with Audrey, went

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Speaker 2: to go out, and it's less than what's far it

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Speaker 2: pays from here. It's because we were there before Georgia

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Speaker 2: and Audrey left after we did warfe So we were

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Speaker 2: there two hours before Audrey and Georgia were there an

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Speaker 2: hour before, right where it all went down. And that night,

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Speaker 2: like it's been twenty years since I got diagnosed with PTSD,

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Speaker 2: but really I was feeling.

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, here we are.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, yes, it's a response to it. And I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to talk to Audery over dinner and I think

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Speaker 2: she must have stopped counting at twelve trust me, twelve times?

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Speaker 3: Where are you?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Really? I was doing these ones rattled by.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's true, man, I had the same thing

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Speaker 1: happened one of the what was the incident in Martin Place?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, that was that rattled me because

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Speaker 1: of the whole connection with well terrorism. Basically he was

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Speaker 1: acting alone. I just remember thinking, it's come home. All

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Speaker 1: this stuff we've done overseas, here it is. And that

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Speaker 1: was a very o safe space and it shouldn't, but

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Speaker 1: just just how terrifying is when it comes here.

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Speaker 3: It's really bad.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of where I got this whole idea

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Speaker 1: for the fishing pieces, like what happened. If it would

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Speaker 1: you know, if war did visit us home after all

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Speaker 1: the things we've done overseas, Yeah, it wouldn't be pleasant.

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Speaker 3: I do want to you know, that's what here. I

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Speaker 3: do want to talk to you about that.

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Speaker 2: But how do you, as someone who's you know, seeing

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Speaker 2: so much combat and seeing so much violence, how do

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Speaker 2: you manage like what are the processes you go through

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Speaker 2: when something like the link cafe thing happens or something

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Speaker 2: like this weekend happens.

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Speaker 1: So when we first when you first do training in

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Speaker 1: the military, you get current of basic training, you build

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Speaker 1: up and you get your skills builds up to a

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Speaker 1: point where all your kind of neural pathways are built

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Speaker 1: in to be able to fight quickly when you need to.

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Speaker 1: So that part of it gets done well by the military.

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Speaker 1: There's another part that is difficult to prepare for, and

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Speaker 1: that's the kind of trauma of it. If you've seen

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Speaker 1: someone wounded or killed, or a civilian heard or all,

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Speaker 1: the human side of it is hard to prepare for.

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Speaker 1: And the first time I witnessed that sort of thing

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Speaker 1: I was probably I was twenty one, I was in

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Speaker 1: these team or I saw a lot of civilians coming

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Speaker 1: back in terrible shape.

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Speaker 3: And again, I think the next time.

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Speaker 1: I really saw things like that was in Afghanistan on

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Speaker 1: my first trip, and so we were highly trained to fight,

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Speaker 1: but we weren't as well equipped and I wasn't as

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Speaker 1: mature to deal with injuries, death, mates getting heard, and

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Speaker 1: also the kind of moral injury of you've been told

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Speaker 1: your whole life not to inflict harm, to look after people,

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Speaker 1: and then you're then you're doing it as part of

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Speaker 1: your job, and just that creates a bit of a

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Speaker 1: fault line, I think through a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: But to your question, how did I deal with it?

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Speaker 1: When I first came home from those early deployments, I

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Speaker 1: had unusual symptoms that were classic PTSD systems, which was,

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Speaker 1: you know, couldn't concentrate, I was socially withdrawn, I couldn't sleep.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, something's wrong here.

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Speaker 1: So I went and saw the Army neuroscientists that had

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of combat soldiers, and they just the

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Speaker 1: guy just explained the science of it to me. He goes,

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Speaker 1: you're not crazy. This is just response to trauma. This

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Speaker 1: is how you deal with it, and just kept it

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Speaker 1: fact spaced, and I was like, thank god for you,

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Speaker 1: because I'd be in a hole if it was you know,

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Speaker 1: if it wasn't for you, I'd still be thinking I'm crazy.

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Speaker 2: It is it can it can really get like that,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you're if you don't know what's happening.

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Speaker 2: My first time I had an anxiety, so I thought

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Speaker 2: I was going to die if I was having a

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Speaker 2: heart attack.

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Speaker 3: I called it the ambulance. No, I was just having.

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Speaker 2: And the ambos were really kind of like, before we

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Speaker 2: go to the hospital, let's just take a couple of breakthrot.

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Speaker 3: I was eighteen. Yeah, my.

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Speaker 2: Mum worked as a civilian doctor for the Australian Army

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Speaker 2: and your wronger, it's not there anymore one male hospital

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Speaker 2: and your longer. Wow.

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Speaker 3: So fifteen years she was there. Wow.

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Speaker 2: And so as you know, I'm not only the kid

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Speaker 2: of two doctors. I'm a kid and this woman that

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Speaker 2: you know worked as a and I was on base

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Speaker 2: all the time because you know, she's like, oh my

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Speaker 2: ship's finishing late, I can nip out, pick you up

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Speaker 2: from whatever, and they'll be able have to come back

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Speaker 2: here because you know, I'm going.

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Speaker 3: To be at home.

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Speaker 2: So I was around it a lot, you know, And

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Speaker 2: I think it was a Vietnam era thing that built.

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Speaker 2: And I can't imagine how different things the way that

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Speaker 2: neuroscientists spoke to you. I can't imagine how different things

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Speaker 2: are now compared to compared to what people were dealing

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Speaker 2: with in the mid eighties when she started there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think PSD was only introduced formally into the

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Speaker 1: god for psychology in the mid eighties after they'd studied

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Speaker 1: these Vietnam veterans. They just couldn't figure out what it

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Speaker 1: was that was doing, and they called it soldier's heart

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Speaker 1: in the Civil War, shell shock in World War One.

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Speaker 1: It's always been there, it's just changed names over time.

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Speaker 1: But they now have the science on it and they

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Speaker 1: recognize what it does to people's minds and also that

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Speaker 1: you can totally come back from it. It's just a

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Speaker 1: matter of looking after yourself and treated are dramas.

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Speaker 2: The stuff that you're I mean, it's terrible, yet war

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Speaker 2: is responsible some of the most extraordinary technological advances and

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Speaker 2: some of the most profound medical advances, because who's going

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Speaker 2: to get the ethical go ahead for a study on Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're going to show you a bunch of your friends

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Speaker 2: dying and then we're going to figure out how you're

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Speaker 2: not going to get traumatized. But we've got no one

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Speaker 2: university is ever going to agree like that. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: I've worried about one. It's like, what if we just

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Speaker 2: kept game boys in the humvy, right, and then the

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Speaker 2: moment if something really bad has happened, we pull them out.

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Speaker 3: We're going to pay tetris all the way home.

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Speaker 2: Apparently something about being in that space in the first

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes after something terrible going down, like it was

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Speaker 2: something along those lines, like no one's ever going to.

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Speaker 3: Be able to do that research.

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Speaker 2: But it kind of opens the door to what else

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Speaker 2: is going on here, how the memory is getting written

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Speaker 2: out of things. You know, our responses get hardwired and

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Speaker 2: awareness is super import and I mean, I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: what it's like to have done your job, and like

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Speaker 2: you said, like just go to the shoppings.

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Speaker 3: Now go to wet and Wild. You're not You're not ready.

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Speaker 3: You're just like I was, like a.

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Speaker 1: The transition is not right because the neuroscientists explained it

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Speaker 1: to me, goes, you've been over using your amigdaler trying

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Speaker 1: to ancient party brain controls all your fight and flight mechanisms.

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Speaker 1: He goes, that's you've been using that to survive, and

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Speaker 1: that kind of makes you more reptilian than a person

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Speaker 1: at the moment. All the things that make us human

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Speaker 1: in your prefrontal cortex, empathy and logic and reasoning, goes,

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Speaker 1: you bench that.

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Speaker 3: For a while.

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Speaker 1: So when you explain it to me like that, I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 1: makes a bit of sense now.

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Speaker 2: And once you learn and become aware of like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I can feel my heart here, I don't know you

352
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Speaker 2: feel that, Yeah, I have. I think I was just

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Speaker 2: shouted the last three things. I said, Ah, what's.

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Speaker 3: Going on here? Exactly? I'm just going to go take

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Speaker 3: some breast, guys, and right back.

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Speaker 2: Glass of water. Well that's another one. Just splash a

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Speaker 2: bit of water on your face. Just something sensory, because

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Speaker 2: if you don't know what's happening, just being aware is

359
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,680
Speaker 2: really there's really something do you find yourself like as you.

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Speaker 3: Go through life, as any dad fears for your children.

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Speaker 2: That old line of the moment you have a kid,

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Speaker 2: your heart now exists outside of your body.

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Speaker 3: It's true.

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Speaker 2: How do you manage that with the evidence around you

365
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 2: that you live in a very relatively safe Yeah, it's.

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Speaker 1: Hard because I'm like, you've got to preserve their wonder

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Speaker 1: of the world that they're seeing for the first time.

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Speaker 1: And you don't want to impose your kind of lens

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Speaker 1: that you might have got at one point in life

370
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Speaker 1: because of something unusual. You don't want to impose that

371
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Speaker 1: over and you want to be special and exciting and

372
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Speaker 1: you but you've always just got in the back of

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Speaker 1: your mind, like when they're a bit older, it's something

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Speaker 1: I can teach them about the world. Is like all

375
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Speaker 1: sunshine rainbows. There are some bad people or some bad

376
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Speaker 1: things out there. Just look out for it.

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00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it can help them. It is.

378
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Speaker 2: It's such a such a balance, isn't it? Because he Yeah,

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00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 2: I'm listening to this book from Jonathan Hight at the moment.

380
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Speaker 2: Amazing guy.

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Speaker 3: Oh is that the one?

382
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, social psychologist, he wrote The Cuddling of the American Mind.

383
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 2: It's freaking amazing, and he was one of all about

384
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,479
Speaker 2: cancel culture and this one is basically what was the

385
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,400
Speaker 2: cause of that, and it's called the anxious mind, which

386
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Speaker 2: is basically how the rise of smartphones changed how people's.

387
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Speaker 3: Brains, wire and hands. We're in this wild space and so.

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Speaker 2: I'm just you know, a new bit of it, but

389
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 2: learning more and more about kids, it's really kind of

390
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 2: vital that they're exposed to danger and they are trusted

391
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Speaker 2: to be out of the house without you. As difficult

392
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Speaker 2: as it is, they're going to be struggling as adults

393
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Speaker 2: if they don't have that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Like for me, it's hard. I can't imagine what

395
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Speaker 3: it's like for you. Yeah.

396
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that whole building kind of risk assessment into them

397
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Speaker 1: when they're young and they're not going to get hurt

398
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Speaker 1: too badly.

399
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's important.

400
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: You've got to let him go out and fall for the

401
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: monkey bars everyw and then and be okay with it

402
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 1: even if you're not around. How do you do that

403
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: when you're speak into a little person. Well, Harry will

404
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 1: do things like I'll see him climbing up the a

405
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: cage that's on a concrete basketball court and I'll be like, mate,

406
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 1: if you fall off that, you're going to land on concrete,

407
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: So just be really careful and I'll tell him that

408
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: and he'd be like, okay, but I'll stand sometimes close

409
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 1: enough to catch him, but I'll just tell him about

410
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: the danger so he knows and then let him go

411
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 1: on his way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you just hope he doesn't fall.

413
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got you the kind of kid that had

414
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: a visit to the plaster Castle when you're.

415
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Speaker 3: A little man.

416
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 1: Mate, we a parent, We used to head off in

417
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: the mornings and we had so much bullsh around that

418
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: place in Perth and we'd just be off on the

419
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,959
Speaker 1: bikes all day exploring. Yeah, and you'd come home late

420
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 1: in the afternoon. There was no mobile phones, No on

421
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 1: knew where you were. They just hope that you were

422
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 1: doing the right thing. And I think there's a giving

423
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: that independence the kids is good.

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Speaker 3: I am very much the same.

425
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Speaker 2: I think I was eight the Christmas I turned I

426
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Speaker 2: think seven.

427
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so eight. I was just about eight when I

428
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,880
Speaker 3: got a BMX And it was all right.

429
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: When the street lights come on, back home, kids are home,

430
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: which is also good because that's when Monkey Magic and

431
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 2: Doctor Who started, so it's two classics.

432
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 3: They always wanted to get home again and that was it.

433
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 2: We'll just go forever for wherever, doing all kinds of

434
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 2: wild ship and I don't know how scary it was

435
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 2: from my mom at the time, but we're okay. I

436
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: think my brother still got some gravel on his knee.

437
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 3: We survived. It's funny how we survived. But you know,

438
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 3: I wonder if we're going to see a pendulum swing back.

439
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 3: I think so.

440
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 1: They're already starting to do it with playgrounds, and they

441
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: realized they over safetied up playgrounds and now they're bringing

442
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: back rocks and trees and all these things that I

443
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: want kids to play on or fall off and you know,

444
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: give a bump or a scrape and it's good.

445
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's character building. It's so fascinating. You talking talk

446
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 3: about brain development.

447
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 2: If you're an ex, you were a twenty one, your

448
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: prefrontal cortex doesn't even finished yet.

449
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 1: And it was clear because I still do stupid things,

450
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: and that's your.

451
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 3: That's your impulse control and things like that. Impulse control

452
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 3: every judgment and risk assessment.

453
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: And that's why current insurance premiums are very high until

454
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: you're twenty five years old, because insurance companies figured this out.

455
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: That's especially young men risk risk takers. And that's why

456
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: I mean young men get hurt a lot because to

457
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: attract the mate sometimes have to take risks. Well I

458
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: think that to take risks, and yeah, it can lead

459
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 1: to harm.

460
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 3: You're not a small man.

461
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 2: I put you on the lower chair, so don't don't

462
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 2: be full like Mark's head and shoulders above me.

463
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: Were you were, you were a big person. When you're

464
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: a teenager. Our family was all pretty sold. My mum

465
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: was like six foot two, kind of battle axe is

466
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: pretty strong. She was tough, tough. Dad was like you

467
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: got your mother's brawn and your father's brain. But yeah,

468
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: the whole family pretty pretty solid, I guess. So, yeah,

469
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: growing up we're pretty We used to eat him out

470
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: of house and home.

471
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: Well I think that's also but I'm asking this because

472
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: this is when you're the big guy, people kind of

473
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: sometimes want to prove himself.

474
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I used to get picked on a

475
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: bit from the older kids when I was young. Yeah,

476
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: so I'd be like grade eight or whatever, it might

477
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: be some year tens that want to knock you into

478
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: in the line a bit, you know.

479
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 3: So yeah, got my heart started high school all right?

480
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: And at what point did something like the military thing

481
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: show up as like, you.

482
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 3: Know what I want to go do that and what

483
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 3: was behind it.

484
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: I think I was in grade nine and I already

485
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: was it tracted to military. I could watch Tour of

486
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: Duty and all these old shows they're on TV. But

487
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: then when I was in grade nine, this kid showed me.

488
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: He was like a military fan, but he showed me

489
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: all these photos of the Iranian EMBc siege in London.

490
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah in.

491
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: Nineteen aight, I'm looking at all these guys doing hostage.

492
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 3: Rescue and I was like that that would be a

493
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: cool job.

494
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: Did some homework and I found out it was the

495
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: SAS and they're actually like a military unit, they're not

496
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: a police unit or anything. So I thought, that's what

497
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: I want to do trying to get there.

498
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 2: That's a that's a very interesting one of one of

499
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: Prince Phillip's more interesting quotes.

500
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: At the back end of that when he was debriefing them,

501
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: Oh what do you say? I can't imagine. Yeah, I

502
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 3: think he was fairly a bit Trumpian.

503
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: It was something launch yeah, yeah, it was something along

504
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 2: the lines of like, I can't believe you don't want

505
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: to get away.

506
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 3: We would have had to shoot him in the back.

507
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 3: So I think it was along those lines. It was

508
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 3: along those lines. I can imagine that was pretty old school.

509
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can only imagine that to get into that

510
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: division of our military, you know, it's the best of

511
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 2: the best. Like, do you start preparing for it? Do

512
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: you start going, well, I'm going to need to kind

513
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: of be this and be that. Do you start angling

514
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: yourself towards that?

515
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think when I found out about it and

516
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, how do you get in? And I read

517
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: a few books about it, I'm like, this is going

518
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: to be really hard, And so I started training just

519
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: I would run around the school level and I didn't

520
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: know what I was doing. I was just doing some training.

521
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: And then over the years I got a.

522
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 3: Bit better at it.

523
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: But this process took forever to kind of go from

524
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: a young kid and just train and try and find

525
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: a way into the army. And when I was in

526
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: the army, figure out how to go to the units.

527
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: The path wasn't exactly clear, but deciding on it from

528
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: a young age I think kept me on the straight

529
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: and narrow at least for a bit.

530
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: Would you say that you know to young man about

531
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: having a bit of an all start ahead towards when

532
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: I'm about fourteen fifteen.

533
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 3: How's that helpful? Well, I was lucky because I found one.

534
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 3: Some people don't, and that's fine.

535
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: But I think the point is pay attention to those

536
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 1: little things that might not be obvious, but they kind

537
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: of grab you for some reason. All those photographs grab

538
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: me because it looked exciting being a team like that,

539
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: helping people when they're in their worst moment. To me,

540
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: that really spoke to me, and I acted on it.

541
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: I think some people get those things happen to them

542
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: that maybe they don't pay attention to it or they

543
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: don't see it.

544
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, it'll always be listening for the whisper. Yeah,

545
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: because it is a whisper. It's not a shout. No,

546
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: it's a whisper. No, it isn't. But it's got to

547
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 3: be something that.

548
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: You've got to want to do it enough to put

549
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 2: yourself through the rigor discomfort pain of getting it there.

550
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's I mean, that's an extreme version of it.

551
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: But I think with any endeavor that's going to be

552
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: good and hard to get to and exciting, there's going

553
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: to be those serious obstacles along the way so you

554
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: can get through them if you really want it and

555
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: you're excited by that, by that goal.

556
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: I guess there's a misconception about the sas.

557
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: It's kind of a little betrayed by a nickname that

558
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure they were given to them by themselves,

559
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: the Superami Soldier.

560
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 3: No doubt, I've heard the Prawn's Good Body, Headful of Ship.

561
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: But I guess you know, the idea of like, you know,

562
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: there's songs about it. The American was I'm going to

563
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: Be and everyone's all that stuff.

564
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: So maybe the misconception is that these guys just want

565
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: to go you know, yeah, Rick Havoc. But I can

566
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: only imagine that when you're in those situations that are

567
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: really intense, you're looking for other guys who think about

568
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,239
Speaker 2: things in the same way that you are. How many

569
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: guys would you say were like, well, yeah, I want

570
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: to do this, but also I'm here because I want

571
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: to help people when they're having a really bad day.

572
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think almost all the guys I worked with

573
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: were stable, calm, polite guy. If you met him in

574
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: the street, you probably wouldn't know that. They're decent to everyone,

575
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: mild mannered, so most of them were really good and

576
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: thoughtful too, Like they're not people that just don't reflect

577
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: on things or think about their lives or what they

578
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: want to do with them. All of them were decent people,

579
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: pretty much all of them. So it was a good

580
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: unit to be a part of because people cared about

581
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: the outcomes are achieving and they weren't unnecessarily violent people

582
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: at all.

583
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: The only experience I've got with that kind of thing

584
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: is in the work that I do. I'm often working

585
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: with security guys who are ex military, they be the

586
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: Australian military or the UK military, were the exception of one.

587
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: Everyone as tall as you think they are, they never

588
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: have as much muscle on them as you think they do.

589
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: They're way smarter than you think, and never once did

590
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: I ever see any of them throw a punch.

591
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 3: No, but they have a thing in their eye where

592
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 3: they like a little sparkle.

593
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: One of them like he knew all the nerve endings

594
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: and things or whatever. And there's this kid at the

595
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: barrier just being a fucking idiot. One day we were

596
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: doing some live TV and he just kind.

597
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: Of gave him a green.

598
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: He just basically grabbed him by the elbow and he

599
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: pulled him in close and he just whispered something in idiot,

600
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: and this kid just went to jelly pretty sure he

601
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: pissed himself and then he left because he was like

602
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: screaming and hurting, you know, people around it.

603
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: Was like, what do you say to him? Like, we

604
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: got a problem, you don't want us to have a problem,

605
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 3: something like that.

606
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: Just the implication there's a thing in his voice that

607
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: clearly said I am not fucking d Yeah.

608
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: They're all decent guy, and I'm kind of I was

609
00:30:59,720 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 3: at there.

610
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm at the bigger end like most guys you know,

611
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: were my size, because it's quite a bit of endurance

612
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: in there. So a lot of them are kind of

613
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: a bit short, like you just wouldn't pick them as

614
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: rambo type people.

615
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 3: All the Navy seals I met when I was low

616
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: to see so all shorter than me. I couldn't believe it.

617
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: I've seen all these movies going, you're a Navy seal,

618
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: you're a candahar What.

619
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: The fuck expect someone ten foot tall and bulletproof? Yeah,

620
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: totally different.

621
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: And the guy who said to me is like, man,

622
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: I'm in and out of submarines and rubberduckies all the time.

623
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: Like those things are tough to live in. If you're

624
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: really a tall person, like.

625
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: Okay, it's actually it's an imburgs. It jammed into helicopters

626
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 3: and all sorts.

627
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: You know where you know, when when you're in the military,

628
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: you're a visible person in that community.

629
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: How do things that you know quite publicly when other

630
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: people who.

631
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: Are wearing that badge, who are in that uniform, who

632
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: maybe aren't acting with the same integrity that you bring

633
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: to the job, how does that affect you?

634
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: I think that was pretty pretty And I didn't see

635
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: cultural shifts in our unit until we'd been fighting for

636
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: a really long time and so been there about six years,

637
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: and it was about twenty ten, and in the last

638
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: couple of years, I'm like, this is starting to get

639
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: away from us because we've been the teams had been

640
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: deployed constantly since nineteen ninety nine, so nearly ten years,

641
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: back to back deployments and in some cases a lot

642
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: of fighting, in some cases a lot of killing, to

643
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: be frank, and what that does to someone is not

644
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: if it happens once, it's about if you're doing five, six,

645
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: seven deployments, it can really warp your view of what's normal.

646
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: And I was starting to see little pockets of that right,

647
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: and that it must be difficult to get ahead of

648
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: because I can imagine there's a justification there of like

649
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: I'm keeping us safe, this is the job we came in.

650
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: Well that and also it was becoming in center advised

651
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: in some ways. So think about someone who who is

652
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: who does get into those positions, is given metals for

653
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: it or whatever. So that's what people start looking up

654
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: to and they start acting in that right in that manner.

655
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: But for a long for the longest time, the unit

656
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: I was in was very much recon unit. It was

657
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: involved in strike missions of course, but it wasn't the

658
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: core job. But there was definitely a shift. It became

659
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: the main game was this targeting looking for fighting and

660
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: killing or capturing these enemy leaders far out.

661
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's I.

662
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: Can understand that, Like if that's the gig that needs

663
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: to happen, because you know it's that you don't want

664
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: to get to Donald don Rumsfeld about it like I

665
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: do all again, you don't want to be that No,

666
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: but you've got to understand, like if there's something on

667
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: a hard drive in there that's going to save thousands

668
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: of or tens of thousands of lives, we really we've

669
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: got to go.

670
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think think Austraians understood what we were

671
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: asking our military to do. I don't think we're paying

672
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: attention because if they, if they really knew and the

673
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: military was really transparent about it, and the journalists had

674
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: gotten in there and told the story properly, people would

675
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: have said, well, if this, if we're doing this, it

676
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: better work. And if it's not going to work, we

677
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: better change direction immediately. And that's we didn't do that,

678
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: So we stayed on this course for a very long

679
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: time when we probably should have been changing tack. It

680
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: can be and I'm sure you saw it when you're

681
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: in America and I saw it too. People get very we.

682
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: Should go around there.

683
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: You know, this is such a charged topic, and you

684
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: can see I'm like walking out tighter rope just talking

685
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: about it because these are I was on some of

686
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: these jobs, My mates are involved. They did really hard work.

687
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: You don't You've got to hold both arguments in mind

688
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: at once. The one is that there's potential that there

689
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: was misconduct on the battlefield. The other one is that

690
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: these people were putting a bad position for too long,

691
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: So you know, there's there's culpability on both ends.

692
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 3: I guess that is.

693
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: Yes.

694
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 2: That is the tricky thing, as Rick si and currently

695
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: is like holding two ideas that are both uncomfortable in

696
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: your head at the same time is hard to do.

697
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: That's why we want the what's the eight words that

698
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: can sum this up and I can move on exactly.

699
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: That doesn't happen, it doesn't exist like it's hard. I

700
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: guess you know where I'm I'm looking towards is that?

701
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 3: Yeah?

702
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: And it was horrible because you know, somebody's son passed

703
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 2: away in an accident in North Queensland a couple of

704
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: weeks back. But to have our leaders put their kids

705
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: in the military, they might be less in ari to

706
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: deploy because it seems like a thing that can get

707
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: your votes.

708
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: You know, to do this and get away from you

709
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: like once you've seen them, once they open the door

710
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: to it, once you let once you go to another

711
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: country and start using force. It's just things happen that

712
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: you can't predict and are out of your control, and

713
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: it can really get away from it.

714
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: So that line no batter plans advice first contact with

715
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 3: the enemy.

716
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: Is true no, yes, And if you're going to go,

717
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: if you're going to go to war, you better do

718
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: it properly or don't go at all.

719
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 3: What does do it properly look like? Well, in my view,

720
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 3: if you're going to fight a bitter b.

721
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 1: For a very strict interest like Australia as a threat

722
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: or our immediate interest or a threat, or someone's been

723
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: captured and you've got to rescue them. Anything less than that,

724
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: don't even don't even bother unless you're going to send

725
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: everything and everyone.

726
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 3: What about the idea?

727
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: In when I first learned radio, one of the greatest

728
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: things that's told to me is like, you know before

729
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 2: you open the mics, Like, know how you're going to

730
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: get out before you get in?

731
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 3: So what's the song you're going to throw to? What's

732
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 3: the later in television wants a video? What are we

733
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 3: doing here? We're going to this thing?

734
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: So I can start this, But then I will I

735
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: know how I'm going to get out, Like no one

736
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: can predict what's going to happen or how things going

737
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: to end up.

738
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 3: But exit strategies are difficult things to come up with?

739
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 3: Is that that why we tend not to have them?

740
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: And you're you might want to get out, but you're

741
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: caught in a bear trap basically. Yeah, and that's that's

742
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: what happens. People get they get stuck in these conflicts

743
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: and there's no easy way out or there's only bad

744
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: solutions to get out.

745
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: What is it like you don't have I'm just fascinated

746
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: to know, because I don't know what I felt when

747
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: I when I saw the footage of Canada or airport.

748
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 3: Those guys are just hanging on the outside of the plane.

749
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know that was apocalyptical. Apocalyptic that is

750
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 3: the word.

751
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: What is that?

752
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 2: As someone who spent a lot of time there and

753
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: you know, gave a lot of yourself and gave up

754
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: a lot for the rest of your life, what does

755
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: that do when you see what happened then?

756
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: I was I had this weird feeling of like.

757
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: I was there every year from two thousand and six

758
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: to twenty ten, and every year they said the same thing.

759
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: This is the crucial year, this is the one that's

760
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: going to break the back, this is the strategy, this

761
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: will win it. They were not only wrong, they were

762
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: misleading themselves, and.

763
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: Our political leaders.

764
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: Were as well, and also our journalists were as well,

765
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: and the soldiers fighting were not facing reality. And so

766
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: I wasn't surprised when it happened. I was shocked out

767
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: quick at all unfolded. But until we face up to this,

768
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: we're going to make the same mistake again. So we

769
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: as a country, we lost forty one people. I think

770
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: it was over nearly three hundred wounded. We definitely a

771
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: lot of theirs were killed, soldiers and civilians. And I

772
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: think we spent eight billion dollars and we achieved nothing.

773
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: And that's difficult.

774
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 2: Just a moment away from Mark to say that if

775
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: you want to get on the mailing list, you can

776
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: find out Oshiginsburg dot com. That's also where all the

777
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: previous episodes are. I'll put some I'll put some of

778
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: the links in the show notes to other folks from

779
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,919
Speaker 2: the military that I've spoken with here on the show,

780
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: just to kind of put what he's talking about in perspective.

781
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: But there's interesting parallels. I reckon we're back with Marke

782
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 3: in just the moment.

783
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: Just in Australia alone, the amount of people that rotated

784
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 2: through there.

785
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 3: Like that, that's that's a that's a lot of people

786
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 3: who are a lot of people living with that. That's

787
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: that's rusty. So well, yeah, people don't.

788
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: There were young guys twenties, thirties, and all right, if

789
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: it's for something that's really critically important to our country,

790
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: you can you can almost absorb those losses in some way.

791
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 3: But when it's a waste and it's an aptitude, it's

792
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 3: not forgiveable.

793
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 2: You've mentioned journalists and political leaders a few times not

794
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 2: actually communicating the reality of it.

795
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 1: What can change that? How can we be better at that? Well,

796
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: it all goes back to there. There's always one decision

797
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: you can make that saves you a million other decisions.

798
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: And that was the one. The hardest decision we had

799
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: to make, is when we're going to choose to step

800
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: away from the conflict despite the fact that the US

801
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: was going to stay there in Nati were going to

802
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,439
Speaker 1: stay there, And we just didn't make that hard choice

803
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: when we should have just dragged on and on and on.

804
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: So we could have gotten our a lot earlier with

805
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: a decent result, and it's still would have been the

806
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: same outcome, but we didn't. We doubled down there.

807
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: So when it comes to when it comes to journalists,

808
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 2: and I can only imagine there's a wider thing at play,

809
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, people get fed stories. You know, people

810
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 2: support different factions when it comes to actually telling the

811
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 2: Australian public the truth. Did anyone come close to it?

812
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 3: I feel like as it I know some people were

813
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 3: starting to question it.

814
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: I think there was a time the kill government came

815
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: into power and there was a helicopter accident.

816
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 3: Was when I was there was twenty ten.

817
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: I think three or four commanders were killed pretty bad,

818
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, and everyone's gone, all right, is this mission

819
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: still relevant? And I think they had an opportunity to

820
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: really adjust our approach and we lost that opportunity. They're like, no, no,

821
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: it's a good mission where we're doing the right thing.

822
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: And I think the Tree is very good at presenting

823
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 1: information that suits them and not not unfashionable, difficult information

824
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: that's going to make life hard from so I think

825
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 1: that's another another mistake. And I think there's people that

826
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: are in political slots need to know when they're being

827
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: the lily. The lily is being gilded, right.

828
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: But yeah, it can make It can really win votes.

829
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: They don't call it a Khaki election for nothing. You know,

830
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 2: people can it can definitely people are afrain if you

831
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 2: make something scary enough, ye you know it's.

832
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: Like, if you want this, then don't vote for them. Yeah,

833
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 3: like what? And I feel like two.

834
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: There was debate about it was being shut down pretty

835
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: effectively because people say, well, if you're going to argue

836
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: against this war, perhaps that means you're not a patriot

837
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,479
Speaker 1: or you're cowardly. So they were easy to hit people

838
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 1: with these labels, right, and that was being used quite

839
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: a bit. But you've got to have these discussions because

840
00:42:58,640 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: they're important.

841
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 2: I would I think America's got a lot to answer

842
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 2: for with the word patriot, all right, I really do,

843
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 2: because I consider myself enormously patriotic.

844
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 3: I love this country so much I became a citizen.

845
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: I do anything for this country.

846
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: If it came to it, I would al I've got

847
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 2: a replacement hip, I wear contact lends and got fucked hearing.

848
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: I'd do whatever it took, whatever national service called for

849
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: it to protect what I love. Right, And I really

850
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 2: disagree with some of the way we do things, and

851
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: I speak up about it if I can, not because

852
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: I don't like my country, but because I do this,

853
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 2: and I consider that to be enormously patriotic. Yes, the

854
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 2: whole you're with us or against this thing? I don't

855
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 2: think that's reality.

856
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: There is, Yeah, you're with us or against us, and

857
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: there's also this middle ground if we need to think

858
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: about what we're doing, because if we go down this path,

859
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: it could be a very difficult path. Yeah, so that

860
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: it does take courage to have a position like that.

861
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: I didn't really have that courage when I was in

862
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: the military. I was in there trying to do the job,

863
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: trying to make it work at the same time, towards

864
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: the end going I don't think this is going to work.

865
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 3: What does courage? What does courage look like for you now?

866
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: Well? I think and it's it's being able to point

867
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: out something that is not right, even when a majority

868
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: of people it's become a convention that it's that it's

869
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: actually correct, and you don't challenge this thinking.

870
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: I think it's.

871
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: It's easy for those things things to take hold and

872
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: takes a lot of courage to point out that there

873
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: might be another way of approaching a problem. I don't

874
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: think I've I don't think I've developed that until much

875
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: later in my life, until I stopped caring as much

876
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: about what people thought.

877
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 3: You know, it take that, it does, though it does.

878
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 3: We're wired for confirmation. You know, we're social cooperation.

879
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: We're also wired to emulate what looks to be the

880
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,720
Speaker 2: most popular thing in our cohort.

881
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 3: They're doing this, I wouldn't want to be excluded, so

882
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 3: I'll do this as well. And that is part of.

883
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: Our fundamental wiring of what makes this a successful species.

884
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: To challenge it is difficult if you're coming from the

885
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: same I guess ultimately moral place of trying to do

886
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: the right thing another human being.

887
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: It can be hard to communicate that. And also an

888
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: issue we didn't have until recently is that people's the

889
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: facts that people are getting are now being distorted. The

890
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: truth of things is being distorted quite readily with these

891
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: devices that have all the world's information at your fingertips.

892
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: So that's becoming a problem. I don't know how we

893
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: get around that, but that's a big one.

894
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

895
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm not here, so.

896
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 3: I'm not here solvent, but I will agree with you.

897
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 2: Reading through the I read through the timeline of how

898
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: like the Wrong Kid was identified as the purpose on

899
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 2: the Saturday night and just seeing how many the kind

900
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: of people that were amplifying it, and you know, particular

901
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: Australian news networks not really verifying information before then legitimizing

902
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: it through their publishing of it. Like that's that's like

903
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 2: making a cigarette and a saw mill man, Like it's

904
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: going to explode and we really need to be careful

905
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: and it's only going to get more intent. So being

906
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 2: scrutinizing information is you know, I'm sure that's a vital

907
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: part when you're out in the field. But just as

908
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: a punter, I'm pretty old school. I get I read newspapers.

909
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: I don't go too much near you know. The social

910
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: media for my news was trying to smart journalists. Yeah,

911
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: clever people who are trained as journalists, trying to stick.

912
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 3: To that pay for it.

913
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: Not perfect, but no, but you've got to It's a

914
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: product like anything else. You know, you don't pay for it,

915
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 1: you're the product.

916
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 3: Ah, this is the thing, without a doubt. If you

917
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: don't pay for it, you're the product.

918
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 2: But not enough people know that, Not enough people know

919
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: that you not transitioning after life in the military. Is

920
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 2: it can be difficult for some people when you realize, ah,

921
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 2: it might be time for me to get out of here.

922
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: When did the next step start to become aware? And

923
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: do you have like is it like someone I don't

924
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 2: know people.

925
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: In the NRL.

926
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 2: Maybe now they're a little more you know, together, but

927
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: there's a very short shelf life that they're going to be,

928
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 2: you know, a highly paid player and after that it's

929
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 2: just MCLs and ct and you.

930
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: Know that's it. So but what do you do next?

931
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 3: You got picked out of a squad.

932
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 2: When you're at eleven, then you've known nothing but that

933
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: until you're twenty eight, and then what happens now?

934
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 3: Like the story, Yeah, the story goes quite often it's like, well,

935
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: when just sit on a bar and that's it? So

936
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 3: how is it? You know, was there much help transitioning out?

937
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 3: Did you start to have a plan? There wasn't.

938
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: There was almost no help transitioning. In fact, it was

939
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: wielded against me on a couple of occasions. Yeah, so

940
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: I was like, well, okay, if you think you're going

941
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: to transition now, that's going to change your immediate career

942
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: right now. And I remember just going the after what

943
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: you put yourself through and the risk you've taken and

944
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: the work you've done. They weren't treating discharging solders very

945
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: well at all. And that can be if there's like

946
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: this sense of a broken contract if you take all

947
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: these risks of your country, there's an unwritten contract with

948
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: that organization that will look after you in some way.

949
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: But in some cases they just wash their hands of you.

950
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: That happens to a lot of people who discharge are involuntarily.

951
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: So I was like, well, actually, I'm going to be

952
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: doing this on my own. So I kind of had

953
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 1: my eye in the US. I wanted to go study there.

954
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do for a career after

955
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: the military, but I'm like, if I go there and

956
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: study and I have a good time, then.

957
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 3: That's a good start.

958
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: That's how I applied for business schools in the US

959
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: and got one, and off I went my business just

960
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: because I thought I could have another career. I think

961
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: I was thirty two at that point. I was like,

962
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: I've got enough time to be able to build a

963
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: career in business and do something fun. But to get

964
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: in I might need a bit of train because otherwise

965
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: I lose all my money and probably everyone else's money.

966
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,879
Speaker 1: And yeah, so that's that's why I went to business school.

967
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: Look, it's an adaptable skill set coming out of the military.

968
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 2: Those those Garni and the guys from November Man it's

969
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: like he was he's basically sat around in He never

970
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: deployed into Bosnia, but I think he was in Croatia.

971
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 3: I think he was there like for like I can't remember.

972
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 2: He told me I first started the show, he told

973
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: me about it and he goes, yeah, and then after

974
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: that I went and started this thing. But because he's

975
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: got that yeah, leadership, you know, chain of command, you

976
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: know your decision trees, like everything is drilled into him

977
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: where it's pretty good.

978
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: And sometimes you don't have the technical know how finance

979
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: and accounting, all those things that are technical and you

980
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: don't necessarily you've got to learn them, but the soft

981
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: skills translate well, you know, like if you can yeah,

982
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: plan and execute and be disciplined, all those things are good.

983
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 2: They will get you far in business. Now, I'll get

984
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 2: you far. And probably the greatest game I ever made, Survivor.

985
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 3: I tried, really, but.

986
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,959
Speaker 2: I punished you very briefly about it after a Looney's ones. Mate,

987
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 2: I do remember that that was good fun. I don't

988
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 2: look it's did you enjoy doing it?

989
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: You did it at it's the I reckon it's the

990
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: most fun thing because it's like it's and people get

991
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: carried away. It's just a bit of fun entertainment. Like

992
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: I think people take it too seriously when they're in it.

993
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: But I learned that because I played it once twenty seventeen,

994
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: kind of cooked. It went back with Sam, my wife's

995
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: second time, and we had a very different about how

996
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: we wanted to play, and we were much more disciplined

997
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: and proactive and yeah, and it works. I was shocked

998
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: because I was expecting to get booted at some point,

999
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: but just had a good alliance and ended up having

1000
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: a lot of fun.

1001
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: The Unspot I remember that season, the Unspoken Intel, when

1002
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 2: you wore each double crossing people going it's okay when

1003
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: she hears me say this because she knows I don't

1004
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: mean it, and I'm going to it was, and then

1005
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 2: across to her interview, she's like, it's all right when

1006
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: he says that because.

1007
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 3: I know it's like, it was so good. It was

1008
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 3: so good.

1009
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1010
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: Look, if I ever get a chance to play it,

1011
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 2: you're going to be one of the people. I'm going

1012
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 2: to allow us to shoot out of this. I'm going

1013
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 2: to go call me. I'm going to Fiji. I'm going

1014
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: to learn how to do all the thing I'm going

1015
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: to figure it all out beforehand. When we did order

1016
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: and on orders, we spent a bit of time there,

1017
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 2: and one of the boat boys at the place we

1018
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: were staying once says, oh.

1019
00:51:58,800 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: We're in television.

1020
00:51:59,640 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: Do you know what?

1021
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. The Americans here twice years. Okay, great.

1022
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 3: Just this last month we had like two people who

1023
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 3: were cast in the next one in the States. Three

1024
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 3: months out. All right, they went down the way because.

1025
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: The island where they shoot it is like right there,

1026
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 2: and they paid these dudes from the village and they said,

1027
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: teach us how to.

1028
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 3: Fish, teach us what to do to recon They did much.

1029
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 1: Wow.

1030
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 3: Oh that's yeah, that's the way. It's hard.

1031
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: It's the islands are difficult. The first time I was

1032
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: Samoa and we just got slammed. It's really tough living.

1033
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: But I think the most important thing with the second

1034
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: time played is that we had a producer from the

1035
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: American season there and they interviewed me and sam just

1036
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: to prepose for what was coming. And I said, what's

1037
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: the difference between the winners of Survivor and the ones

1038
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 1: that don't win?

1039
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 3: She goes the winners are all in. They go all

1040
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 3: in on the game.

1041
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: You know, they do everything work And I'm like that

1042
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: made sense, and I'm kind of made my mind up,

1043
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm going to play, probably gonna get

1044
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: smoked at some point, so let's.

1045
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 3: Just go and have fun as well. And yeah, yeah,

1046
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'll talked about it afterwards. There's other

1047
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 3: things that I'm going to.

1048
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 2: I'm like, one I want to play it is when

1049
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 2: I'm the unassuming kind of guy in my mid sixties, Like,

1050
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 2: who's that fucking guy?

1051
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 3: Didn't he do it? There was an old invention called television.

1052
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 3: I remember, wasn't he on it? Time to do it?

1053
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to be.

1054
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 3: In the back just double cross and everyone.

1055
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to do a praise of this hit. Yeah totally,

1056
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: and hopefully keep the strength up so I can shame Sorry.

1057
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to shanggle it. I'm going to shang ale it.

1058
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 3: She was amazing, She was she was, she was so good.

1059
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: At what point, Like there's a line that everyone's got

1060
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 3: a great.

1061
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: Book in them, everyone's got a novel in them. Like

1062
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 2: I cheated, Like I write a memoir. I had the material.

1063
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I knew it. Intimately to go out and say

1064
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 3: to yourself.

1065
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,919
Speaker 2: I remember someone telling me once I said I can't,

1066
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 2: I can't have vent a TV show, and it goes,

1067
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 2: why not because I'm not a show creator.

1068
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 3: Anyway, You're now a show creator. Okay, that's awesome.

1069
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 2: The only difference between Boll who R is that one

1070
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: day people said they are and that's it. And then

1071
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: when I did something, what was it like for you

1072
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 2: approaching that? Like, I'm going to write a work of fiction,

1073
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 2: so I wanted to.

1074
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: I enjoyed writing the non fiction memoir and I was like,

1075
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: I've always thought I could do fiction, but never quite

1076
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: had an idea that I thought was good. And then

1077
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: over time living up on this hill in Victoria, which

1078
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: is heavily forested and community up there, and I was like,

1079
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: imagine if this was like a hold out in a

1080
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: dystopian future, that could be a really cool story. And

1081
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: the more I thought about it, I was going to

1082
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: do another non fiction book because you know, leadership or something,

1083
00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 1: because it's good for speaking career and you can make money.

1084
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 2: I think what you meant to say was like, because

1085
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: I really think my country could benefit from some of

1086
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 2: the skills that I've got, and I've got a lot

1087
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: to say, and I see young men and women struggle

1088
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 2: in these areas, and I'd really like my kids to

1089
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 2: grow up in a world led by great leaders.

1090
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: So that's the things I want to put into the world. Look,

1091
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 3: if I had a speaking gig, I'll take it.

1092
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: That's what I meant to say. I was like, and

1093
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: then but I couldn't. I was looking at it and

1094
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: I'm just not motivated for this. And then i was

1095
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 1: talking about it and I'm going, look, I got this

1096
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: idea for a fiction book. It's going to be hard,

1097
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: but this is the idea. And he's like, Okay, do

1098
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 1: a treatment. So I did, like a proposal and write

1099
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: about ten thousand words. He's like, Okay, I think this

1100
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: is good.

1101
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 3: And so I worked on it.

1102
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: Probably took about eighteen months. It took me about twice

1103
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: as long as the other book, because you're building everything

1104
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: from the ground up. But it was we edit it

1105
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: seven times. It wasn't until we got to like a

1106
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: fifth edit that it started to look like a book

1107
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: and a good story. I think before then it was

1108
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: it was pretty average. But it's really gotten into good

1109
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: shape now, so I'm hopeful.

1110
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 2: There's a lot of I did not understand before I

1111
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 2: started exploring what screenwriting. Screenwriting was and starting to learn

1112
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. The thing that you see

1113
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 2: on screen or the thing that you read in a

1114
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 2: book on screen. Sometimes it's the eightieth version, yeah, like exactly,

1115
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 2: and seven is probably low, you know, because people like

1116
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 2: But that's all the difference, Like if if you're able

1117
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: to just put one extra hook in there, that's the

1118
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 2: difference between a best seller and a blockbuster.

1119
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just the coming out the boring bits.

1120
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: So the pacing is good and the right And I

1121
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: didn't know this when I first started writing, But there

1122
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: are conventions in storytelling, and you better know what they

1123
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: are because if all good stories have those conventions, so

1124
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: it pays to know where they are.

1125
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, mate, you've got no set up for your

1126
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 3: third act. There's no point in our return. What's done?

1127
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:58,399
Speaker 3: Where's the point?

1128
00:56:58,440 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 2: Where?

1129
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 3: Where's your point incident? Like, oh my god, the Last Fight?

1130
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 3: Did you watch The Gentleman yet on Netflix? No, I've

1131
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 3: heard it's good. Yeah. I won't say a thing.

1132
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 2: I won't say a thing, but I think I Richie

1133
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: might have might have left a few check marks off

1134
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 2: the story conventional list.

1135
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 3: There you go, did it work or.

1136
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: I don't want to spoil it for you, but for me, well,

1137
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 2: look you speak speaking of the motion picture, how did

1138
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: the Mad Max thing come around? Oh?

1139
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: That was that was really a bizarre one. I had

1140
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: an agent, Kylie, and I just remember saying her.

1141
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 3: She's like, what do you want to do.

1142
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, I've always wanted to do something in film,

1143
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: and I heard they're going to film Furios for in Australia.

1144
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: It's a Mad Max film. I'd love to try and

1145
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: get some rolling it, even if I'm standing in the

1146
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: background holding a toilet brush or whatever. She goes, just

1147
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:54,919
Speaker 1: just leave it with me. She came back three months later.

1148
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: I thought she'd forgotten about. She guys, you can tape

1149
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: you an audition for this. I've spoken to the company

1150
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: and I was like, I never auditioned for a film.

1151
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: So I got the tapes and it was a monologue

1152
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: and three other things, and I had to film it.

1153
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: So I spent about two weeks just preparing that, and

1154
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: then I filmed it, did a few takes, and then

1155
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: I sent it. I packed it up and sent it

1156
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: to her and she goes, I'll give it to him.

1157
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: She gave it to him she said, we'll pass it

1158
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: on to the director, and I didn't hear from him.

1159
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: I think I went out and survivor actually, and then

1160
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: I came back and she goes, the director wants to

1161
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: chat to you, to talk to George, and I'm like,

1162
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 1: what does that mean. She goes, I think it's good,

1163
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to believe it. I'm like, okay,

1164
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: I'll do this. So I sat on a zoom interview.

1165
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: It was him and his scriptwriter Nicol Lthorius, and they

1166
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: just told stories for an hour. They're like, this is

1167
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: why we started, man Max, this is how it happened.

1168
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: And he was just such a curious guy, George Millery.

1169
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: He goes, oh, what's that and he's pointed at my microphone.

1170
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: I said, I'll do presentations from home sometimes. It's a

1171
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: really curious mind, really big storyteller. And he goes, well,

1172
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: we've got the main characters picked him, but he's building

1173
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: had a constellation of others and he goes, well, we'll

1174
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: have something for you. We'll come back soon. And I

1175
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: was skeptical. I'm like, I don't think this is going

1176
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: to happen. And my agent's going, you're going to get

1177
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: a role start training and I was like, I don't

1178
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: think so. And then sure enough a contract came back

1179
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: and it had a role in the script and I

1180
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I'm doing this.

1181
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 3: And so I had to start training for the role

1182
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 3: and I was on I think I was on set

1183
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 3: for about two weeks total, and I have how often

1184
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 3: is your shirt off? Like what kind of training were

1185
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 3: talking about?

1186
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: The well, I was worrying this. I'm like, yeah, how

1187
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: much buffness is it going to need to be? Went

1188
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 1: to wardrobe and I realized I was wearing this huge overall.

1189
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: So I was like, arms, neck back, I'm like, party, ways.

1190
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 3: Let's go. So I was just shrugs, shrun trug shrundrugs,

1191
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 3: chesting guns.

1192
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, and then went out on the set and

1193
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: it was just like a big military operation and he

1194
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: is a director, was fantastic, such a put every one

1195
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 1: of these I've never done acting. He's like dying about

1196
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: It's just you got to believe you're in it and

1197
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: know what your lines are. And it was a really

1198
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: good experience. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

1199
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 3: Thanks for coming around, man mate, I really appreciate it.

1200
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 3: Great to share it. That was awesome, and that was

1201
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 3: Mark Wales.

1202
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 2: He's got two books out right now, Survivor, his autobiography,

1203
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: and the novel that he's written, Outlander.

1204
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 3: The links to buy both those books are in the

1205
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 3: show notes. There's a lot to think about there. He

1206
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 3: gave me a lot to ponder.

1207
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 2: His description of PTSD was just so very clear, and

1208
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 2: as someone who has gone through it and still occasionally

1209
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 2: lives with symptoms, I really hope it's shone a bit

1210
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 2: of a light on what could be a very complicated

1211
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: problem for some people. And if there's anyone in your

1212
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: immediate life, or in your workplace or a community that

1213
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 2: it has a bit of that, I hope it helps you.

1214
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 3: Understand a bit more about what it is that they're

1215
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 3: going through.

1216
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to have to go away and think on

1217
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 2: what he and I just spoke about, because I've some

1218
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 2: thoughts about what we discussed.

1219
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: But I'll come back on Friday with that, I believe.

1220
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 3: Thanks so much to everyone that made the show with

1221
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 3: me today.

1222
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: Andy Maher on audio posts, mikey Ward on video post,

1223
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 2: jas Fenton Medzi's on copy Towhid and made all the music.

1224
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 2: Monica Chapman produced this episode look after yourself. Drop me

1225
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 2: a DM in the comments or leave a comment on

1226
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: the post on Instagram about this show and do rate

1227
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: the show if you can. If you found the show,

1228
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: Who's full, share it with somebody letting another person know

1229
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: and if you want to go on the mail list

1230
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: Oshagainsberg dot com.

1231
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, See you Friday.