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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person has never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. In part one of my chat with Sally Laden,

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Speaker 1: we spoke about her mother, Marion Barthur's mysterious disappearance and

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Speaker 1: the problems with the police investigation. Now in part two,

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Speaker 1: Sally talked about the sensational evidence that came out in

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Speaker 1: the inquest regarding miss Blum, who has seen Marian around

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Speaker 1: the time of her disappearance. Mister Blum is a person

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Speaker 1: who went through life with fourteen different aliases, I also

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Speaker 1: asked Sally a personal question about what she most wants

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Speaker 1: to happen regarding her mother's disappearance. Let's have a listen. Sally,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to part two off I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Hello.

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Speaker 1: I said, I offered you condolences at the start of

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Speaker 1: part one on what you've been through with your mother

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Speaker 1: disappearing twenty seven years ago, and I've got to say

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Speaker 1: the frustrations that you must feel with the roadblocks you've

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Speaker 1: hit and your effort to just keep picking yourself up

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Speaker 1: and still trying to find the answers for your mum.

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Speaker 1: So again, full credit to you and condolences that you've

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Speaker 1: had to go through that.

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Speaker 2: No worry, thank you. Well, look, I tell you like

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Speaker 2: the roadblocks keep coming too. Just because we get an

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Speaker 2: answer from the coroner as well, it doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: I've actually like twenty twenty four is one of the

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Speaker 2: worst years I've actually had in life, actually just getting

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Speaker 2: to the end of being told that your mother is

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Speaker 2: deceased and then having to work out the next steps

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Speaker 2: in that as a missing person and someone whose case

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Speaker 2: is a little convoluted and a little confusing. There's two

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Speaker 2: names involved. You know, it has been an absolute diabolical

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Speaker 2: time for me.

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Speaker 1: There's bizarre twists and turns, and looking at it, I

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Speaker 1: found it interesting from a form of homicide detective point

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Speaker 1: of view. And we left part two talking about Rick

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Speaker 1: Blom or whatever he's calling himself these days. Tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit more what you found out. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: start talking about what came out during the inquest, but

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Speaker 1: just in the lead up to the inquest, because when

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Speaker 1: it was the inquest held, that was.

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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty two and it ended in February twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when the findings were handed down. Yeah, okay, So

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Speaker 1: in that period before that the matter has been referred

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Speaker 1: to the from miss persons to unsolve homicide.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it. I don't think it ever sat

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Speaker 2: with missing persons, to be honest. It sat with local

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Speaker 2: command Byron Bay and tweeedtheads.

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Speaker 1: Where it sat and when did it go to homicide?

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Speaker 2: Late twenty nineteen, twenty nineteen, Okay, I was allocated a

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Speaker 2: homicide detective at a new OICEE.

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Speaker 1: What information did you uncover before leading into the before

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Speaker 1: the inquest?

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Speaker 2: Well, we found the ad in the paper that was

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Speaker 2: in the May and that was such a big breakthrough

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Speaker 2: for us because we had found someone who had the

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Speaker 2: same name, who was around the same age. So if

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Speaker 2: you think about nineteen nineteen ninety four, the ad was

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Speaker 2: placed and he was saying he was forty seven and

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven, my mom's fifty one, So you

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Speaker 2: do the math, right, They're all around the same age

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Speaker 2: and same location. Geographical and that's another thing that's blowing

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Speaker 2: my mind with this case, like everything is geographically in line,

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Speaker 2: in sync, all in the same backyard essentially. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: I went with the Channel seventeen. We flew over to Luxembourg.

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Speaker 2: And the reason Luxembourg is important, which something we haven't

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Speaker 2: touched on, is that on my mum's incoming passenger card,

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Speaker 2: oh sorry, her outgoing passenger card, she said that her

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Speaker 2: name was Florabella Ramchel. She was divorced. She ticked that

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Speaker 2: she's divorced, and she ticked that she's leaving permanently to

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Speaker 2: go and live in Luxembourg. Home duties was her occupation.

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Speaker 2: When she comes back in six weeks later a different

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Speaker 2: route on a different airline, so she's left on Korean

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Speaker 2: air she's come back in on Cathay, which we found

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Speaker 2: by the way. I like to add this because the

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Speaker 2: timeline is very tight. But we've actually spoken to captains

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Speaker 2: and people who worked for Cathay and they said that

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Speaker 2: was the quickest way to get from Europe to Australia

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Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety seven. That he knew exactly the

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Speaker 2: airline code and everything we were giving him and he

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Speaker 2: just rattled off straight away for us. So that's interesting

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Speaker 2: in itself. She's flown back in from Hong Kong and

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Speaker 2: she has ticked. Now she's still Florabella Aromackel, but she's

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Speaker 2: ticked that she's married, and the tick is very exaggerated,

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Speaker 2: so all the other ticks are quite small on that page,

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Speaker 2: but the tick for marriage is huge. And she says

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Speaker 2: she's coming for eight days to see family. That was

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Speaker 2: pretty much it, and that she ticked also that she

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Speaker 2: was not a resident of Australia, which we thought was interesting.

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Speaker 2: Found out last night actually, someone commented on my Facebook

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Speaker 2: group that Luxembourg is spelt differently if you're a European.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that. And the way it's written on

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Speaker 2: the incoming passenger card with outgoing passenger card, it's spelt

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Speaker 2: that way. It's spelt you like a European spelling. So

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Speaker 2: that just for knowledge. I thought that was interesting pie

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Speaker 2: tid bits of information. So yeah, so anyway we fly over.

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Speaker 2: We located the address of a gentleman whose name was

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Speaker 2: f Ramchel. Turns out it was Finande. The m in

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Speaker 2: the ad was actually monsieur. Okay, how they how they speak,

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Speaker 2: I guess, and how they write in the newspaper. So

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Speaker 2: m F was Monsieur Fernande Ramichel, looking for love. So

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Speaker 2: we find an f Ramckel who's the same age, who

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Speaker 2: lives in Luxembourg, and we got knock on his door.

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Speaker 2: He greeted me with a little hostility. I put my

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Speaker 2: hand out to shake his hand and he ignored my hand.

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Speaker 2: I had an interpreter with me. We were both nervous.

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Speaker 2: You can hear us walking up to the to the

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Speaker 2: front door and crackling on the rocks because I was

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Speaker 2: with the with the Channel seventeen and obviously they wanted

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Speaker 2: to capture what he was going to say to me,

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Speaker 2: right and I know, and I said to him, I

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Speaker 2: was sorry, I didn't. Yeah, it was I said to

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Speaker 2: Brian actually Seymour, who was with me as part of

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Speaker 2: the podcast team, and I said, my husband's going to

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Speaker 2: kill me. If he knew what I was doing right now,

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Speaker 2: he would be not very happy with me. I'm a

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Speaker 2: mother of three children. I can't be doing this. But

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Speaker 2: it was just wild. It was a wild ride. We

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Speaker 2: got up to his door. He's really rude to me.

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Speaker 2: I had my mom's photo. I said, do you know

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Speaker 2: my mom?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Do you? And he was just I don't speak English,

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Speaker 2: like wh I don't speak English? And Sarah is saying to me.

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Speaker 2: He's telling us we should go, we need to go,

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Speaker 2: and then he closed the door in our face. So

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Speaker 2: we walked off and his wife was out the front

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Speaker 2: taking photos of the boys. I'd said to the boys,

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Speaker 2: sit in the car down on the road. I don't

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Speaker 2: want you to come up and put cameras in their faces.

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Speaker 2: These people could be very innocent and they could potentially

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Speaker 2: not know anything. And you know, I'm not about walking

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Speaker 2: in and dropping a bomb on someone's lap and then

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Speaker 2: walking away and going, oh, sorry about that. Now you're

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Speaker 2: going to ask your husband what's the go with the

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Speaker 2: woman from Australia Like I was very conscious of that. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: he called the police. They came. We'd already seen them

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Speaker 2: that morning, which sort of helped our favor because they

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Speaker 2: knew why we were there and no harm. We were

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Speaker 2: just trying to ask some questions and see what he knew.

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Speaker 2: And he also happened to be a soccer player who

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Speaker 2: played professional for Luxembourg, so all these little links. It

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Speaker 2: was just wildly crazy in our brains. Anyway, we were

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Speaker 2: all spinning out by it. And anyway, during that time

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Speaker 2: when we're over there, we also found the phone number

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Speaker 2: four Finnan Ramichel's ex wife, Monique Cornelius, and so we

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Speaker 2: rang and spoke to her, and this is before we

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Speaker 2: went out to Finnanes because he wasn't home. We'd been

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Speaker 2: going out there every day for three days and he

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Speaker 2: wasn't there, and there was an election happening that weekend,

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Speaker 2: and we just took a punt that maybe they'll come

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Speaker 2: back for the election, because they're very liberal on voting

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Speaker 2: over there and it's a big thing. So we rang

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Speaker 2: and Manique cancered the phone and she spoke to us

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Speaker 2: for a little bit and it was a bit confusing

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Speaker 2: because Finan's sister in law is sister is Marion as well,

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Speaker 2: so she thought we were talking about his sister in law.

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Speaker 2: It was a little confusion. Obviously there's a language barrier

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Speaker 2: there too, but she did speak English and she did

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Speaker 2: speak to us. Fast forward, mister Rick Blum had a relationship,

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Speaker 2: which he denies, but Monique has shown She produced a

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Speaker 2: love letter that he'd written to her at the inquest,

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Speaker 2: which was very unusual. But they had they had a relationship. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So when we went to Luxembourg, we knocked on Finnan

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Speaker 2: Ramichel's door, and that was the real Finnan Ramchel. He

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Speaker 2: had had his identification stolen and Rick Blum was using

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Speaker 2: his identification back here in Australia.

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Speaker 1: And another little twist to it was that Rick Blum

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Speaker 1: had had a relationship with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, with his ex wife, Monique Cornelius.

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Speaker 1: Okay, small, well, so.

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Speaker 2: I should probably I should probably qualify that as how

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Speaker 2: that came about. So Manique was obviously married to Fan Ramichel,

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Speaker 2: and in his statement he Rick Blum agreed that he

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Speaker 2: had stolen Fanan Ramckel's identification. So the same guy we're

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Speaker 2: knocking on his door, this guy's taken his identification. He

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Speaker 2: got an international driver's license in his name with his

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Speaker 2: date of birth and then he came to Australia and

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Speaker 2: he got a Queensland driver's license in that same name.

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Speaker 2: He kept the driver's license so much so that he

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Speaker 2: renewed it in nineteen eighty eight. He said it was

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Speaker 2: in his wallet on the timeline of my mum when

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Speaker 2: he was with my mum. He agrees that he had

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Speaker 2: an affair with my mum. He said they only met

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Speaker 2: three times and around. He said that he was there

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Speaker 2: when the for sale sign was out in the front

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Speaker 2: of my mum's house. To give you some idea, so

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Speaker 2: we know he was in that mix of when she's

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Speaker 2: getting ready to leave. He actually accused my mum on

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Speaker 2: the stand of stealing the driver's license out of his wallet,

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Speaker 2: because he then said, I've lost it. I don't have it,

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Speaker 2: and I think Marion stole it because she wanted to

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Speaker 2: change her name to that. And the crazy thing about

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Speaker 2: it is, if you look at Fernande, Fernand's middle name

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Speaker 2: is Nicholas, Nicholas Fernande. Rick Blum wrote Knucklus, he has

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Speaker 2: a habit of changing vowels on names. We've picked up

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Speaker 2: on this, and mum changed her name to Flora Bella

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Speaker 2: Natalia throw the marian In but Ramichael, so they're the

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Speaker 2: same initials as well, which we thought was quite interesting.

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Speaker 1: I've seen that not alluding to the fact that this

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Speaker 1: is why he did it, but it's a good fraud's

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Speaker 1: his strick.

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Speaker 2: Well, he's he has been charged. He has a long

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Speaker 2: history of fraud offenses. He's been in prison for fraud.

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Speaker 1: I think that came out in the inquest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so yes, it got wildly crazy at that

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Speaker 2: point and everyone was losing their marbles.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of Normally we'd put a whiteboard

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Speaker 1: up at this point in time, and there was information

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Speaker 1: about your mum's travels and the correlation between your mother's

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Speaker 1: travels in the time that she went to Europe in

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Speaker 1: ninety seventh and that of Rick Blombs.

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Speaker 2: Yep. So he flew out on the Wednesday, which I

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Speaker 2: think is the eighteenth of June. And I just want

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Speaker 2: to add this because I think it's important. So mum

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Speaker 2: had resigned from her job yep, and the Friday was

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Speaker 2: end of term. So she's waited until the friday, end

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Speaker 2: of term. She's come for dinner at our house on

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Speaker 2: the Saturday, and she's left on the Sunday. So she

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Speaker 2: flew out on the twenty second. He flew out on

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Speaker 2: JL Japanese Airline to Japan. My mom flew out on

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Speaker 2: Korean air Plane Fly Airline and she landed in South Korea.

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Speaker 2: And just for those that don't know, when you leave Australia,

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Speaker 2: Interpol actually only make a reference of where you land

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Speaker 2: on your first point of call. So if you're going

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Speaker 2: to Singapore, but you're going to London by Singapore, Singapore

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Speaker 2: will be noted as your destination on Interpol and saying

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Speaker 2: when you're coming back in. So we know mum was

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Speaker 2: in Hong Kong because that's what it says on her

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Speaker 2: incoming passenger car. But that's obviously like a stopover from

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Speaker 2: coming from Europe or from the UK, so that's where

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Speaker 2: you lose all you go to the abyss pretty much,

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Speaker 2: and that was really frustrating because we didn't know where

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Speaker 2: she went. She did write to me, as I said

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Speaker 2: earlier in the last episode, that she'd written to me

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Speaker 2: on notepaper, and that notepaper actually came from a hotel

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Speaker 2: in Japan, Hotel Nico in Narrita. Now, when Rick Blum

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Speaker 2: was interviewed by police, they asked him where did you

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Speaker 2: stay when you went on that trip on the in

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Speaker 2: the June of nineteen ninety seven in Japan, and he

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Speaker 2: just very quickly remembered and said, I stayed at Hotel

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Speaker 2: Niko and Nerita, and I nearly fell off my chair.

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Speaker 2: I was like, what he said, at the same hotel

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Speaker 2: as mum was written to me on the notepaper.

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Speaker 1: So yes, it was and so crazy And this was

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Speaker 1: a stationary from that hotel, correct the leather that your

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Speaker 1: mum's written the stationary there. Yes, And there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of other coincidents, and we could go into the mall,

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Speaker 1: but I think we'll draw on some of the some

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Speaker 1: of the opinions of the coroner, what the coroner found,

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Speaker 1: because the inquest that went I think it sat for

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Speaker 1: twenty five days, ran for over twenty five days, so I.

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Speaker 2: Said, it was an unprecedented amount of time. And it

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Speaker 2: was costing over a million dollars is what they told me. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I went, well, that's okay, because my mum's actually

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Speaker 2: worth it, so let's keep going if we need to

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Speaker 2: keep going. So but it was hard, it was not pleasant.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was before the magistrate, the state coroner, Magistrate

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Speaker 1: Theresa O'Sullivan and she handed the handed down the findings

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Speaker 1: on the twenty ninth of February last year. But the

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Speaker 1: inquest commenced on the twenty first of June twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: one and concluded on the second of June twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: ran for over twenty five days. So yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 1: a long long inquest. I'm thinking been the other that's

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Speaker 1: run longer other than the whim to all matter, and

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Speaker 1: that's ongoing way way longer. So to explain what the

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Speaker 1: role of the coroner is, so the coroner first, then

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Speaker 1: I put it here because if listeners don't understand, the

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Speaker 1: corannial court is not a criminal court, so that's important.

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Speaker 1: The crannial court is an inquest and the role of

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Speaker 1: the coroner is to find out if someone's deceased, which

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Speaker 1: in the case of your mother, it wasn't determined, so

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Speaker 1: the coroner's that's been referred to the coroner to make

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Speaker 1: a determination if your mother's deceased, and then when your

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Speaker 1: mother died and how she died and where, time and date.

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Speaker 1: They're the type of things that the coroner's looking for.

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Speaker 1: Was that explained to you before the inquest?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was lucky enough to befriend Mark and Fay

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Speaker 2: Levison and they had actually know you worked on their

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Speaker 2: case with Matt and they were really, you know, very

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Speaker 2: important people for me at that point, because I was

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Speaker 2: learning what I had to do, whether I needed counsel assisting,

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Speaker 2: whether I needed legal teams, how it all worked, and

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Speaker 2: what I was in for. Joanie also has a background

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Speaker 2: in social work, so she's actually been involved in in

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Speaker 2: quest before, and you know, she was telling me it's

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Speaker 2: a fact finding mission, is how she sort of worded

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Speaker 2: it to me, and it made sense to me that

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Speaker 2: this isn't a criminal procedure. I also kept getting told

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Speaker 2: by legal teams that, you know, the inquest is about

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Speaker 2: two things, Sally. One is your mum alive or is

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Speaker 2: she deceased? And two did the police do their job properly?

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Speaker 2: So as far as the coroner is concerned, they're the

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Speaker 2: two main factors that she had to consider. Then, of

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Speaker 2: course we've brought in this person who she referred to

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Speaker 2: as a significant person of interest, and we heard all

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Speaker 2: his evidence and in we pause the inquest. They vacated. Sadly,

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Speaker 2: they didn't tell me they vacated, and I flew my

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Speaker 2: whole family down and we got a car and hotels

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Speaker 2: and everything cost us about six thousand dollars. Three weeks

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Speaker 2: before Christmas and we arrived in Sydney and then my

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Speaker 2: lawyer rang me and said, hey, I just wanted to

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Speaker 2: let you know they vacated. I said, what does that

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Speaker 2: even mean? And he said, they've postponed it and I mean,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, well we're here. He goes, what why

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Speaker 2: are you here? I said, because we came down to

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Speaker 2: day early to see my dad, you know, and brought

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Speaker 2: the whole family, brought the kids. Prepared myself mentally that

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Speaker 2: I was going to be told for the first time

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Speaker 2: that my mum's deceased, and it paused, and look the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, it was a good thing because

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Speaker 2: they did go and interview more people and bring with

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Speaker 2: us to the table at.

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Speaker 1: That time, and the police that took the matter to

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Speaker 1: the inquest was the Homicide or Unsolved homosild led by

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Speaker 1: Nigel Warren and to other offices working on it, so

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Speaker 1: you felt that inquiries were being made that should be made,

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Speaker 1: Like I've had a lot of detectives on here, and

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Speaker 1: you're stacking up with some very good detectives maybe you

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Speaker 1: should have got in the Queensland place, but you were

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Speaker 1: satisfied that genuine inquiries were being made, the type of

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Speaker 1: inquiries that should have been made in the first place,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we wouldn't be sitting here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, and this is where it gets down

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Speaker 2: to the nitty gritty, as you said, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's an unprecedented amount of days that they've already given

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Speaker 2: to my mum's inquest, and how much it's costing. There

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Speaker 2: was a lot that Joanie and I were sitting behind

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Speaker 2: my legal team and we were literally feeding all this information,

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Speaker 2: going oh, what about this person, and what about this person?

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Speaker 2: We should talk to this person, And it just got

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Speaker 2: to the point where it was irrelevant to ask those

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Speaker 2: questions based on what the purpose of the inquest was about.

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Speaker 2: And I did understand that, as hard as it.

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Speaker 1: Was, there was a lot of evidence and mister bloom

347
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Speaker 1: of Blum, how long was he in the witness box.

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Speaker 2: Fall My memory is it was thirteen days.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so fairly extensive. Cross the wife.

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Speaker 2: His wife was there too, she I think she was

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Speaker 2: on for two days.

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Speaker 1: So there's in the coroner's findings. There's a couple of

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Speaker 1: means that I've pulled out from the coroner, just to

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Speaker 1: put it in perspective, because we're getting your version and

355
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Speaker 1: I'm hearing all the details. But this is a coroner

356
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Speaker 1: that they oversaw that extensive inquest, and these are some

357
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Speaker 1: of the findings that she came to, and I'm making

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Speaker 1: sure that we read it out properly so we're not

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Speaker 1: misrepresenting it. So I find that mister Blum, whilst in

360
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Speaker 1: an intimate relationship with Marian, persuaded or otherwise encouraged her

361
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Speaker 1: to sell her house in nineteen ninety seven. The evidence

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Speaker 1: is not too sufficient to prove that mister Blum played

363
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Speaker 1: any causy role in Marion's decision to resign from her employment.

364
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Speaker 1: So breaking that down, it's she found that mister Blum

365
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Speaker 1: in a relationship with Marion, So this is something that's

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Speaker 1: been established, persuaded or otherwise encouraged her to sell her

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Speaker 1: house in nineteen ninety seven. So we're saying that this

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Speaker 1: relationship was that intense or whatever was going on there,

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Speaker 1: he's the reason why your mother sold the house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well think about it too. She changed her name.

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Speaker 1: To his Yeah, some other comments, and just breaking it

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Speaker 1: down because it's such a complex thing, as we're seeing

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Speaker 1: that will rely upon what the coroner is saying about

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Speaker 1: her fine needs. Now, there was that eighty thousand dollars

375
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Speaker 1: worth of eighty thousand dollars which was withdrawn from your

376
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Speaker 1: mother's account.

377
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Speaker 2: So on the fifteenth of October. So if I wind

378
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Speaker 2: back early when she just like after, she has come

379
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Speaker 2: back in five thousand dollars every day was being withdrawn.

380
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 2: We found a letter that my grandfather had kept that

381
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Speaker 2: my cousin gave to me, which says there's increments of

382
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 2: five hundred dollars in there as well. So there was

383
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Speaker 2: a bit of controversy as to whether it was five

384
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Speaker 2: thousand or five hundred. I stand firm that the lady

385
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Speaker 2: said to me five thousand. My husband was sitting at

386
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Speaker 2: the dinner table and Renee was too, and it's been

387
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Speaker 2: said forever that was five thousand. So she did bank

388
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Speaker 2: with the Commonwealth Bank, and she also banked with Colonial

389
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Speaker 2: State Bank. So and at the very outset in the

390
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Speaker 2: InterQuest were trying to tell me that my memory was

391
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 2: wrong and that my mum didn't bank with the Commonwealth Bank.

392
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Speaker 2: But then I was very pleased to see when the

393
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Speaker 2: Commonwealth Bank came in and throughout a whole statement of

394
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Speaker 2: all of the bank accounts that she'd held with them,

395
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Speaker 2: and I see, I'm not delusional. She did bank with

396
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Speaker 2: the Commonwealth Bank, and so there was a bit of

397
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Speaker 2: that going back and forth. But then there was a

398
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Speaker 2: pause through like the end of September early October. But

399
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Speaker 2: on the fifteenth of October, eighty thousand dollars was electronically

400
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Speaker 2: transferred out of my mum's bank account. What really upsets

401
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 2: me if I go back to the very beginning of

402
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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven, the police officer actually writes this on

403
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 2: the police report, that eighty thousand dollars was electronically transferred.

404
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 2: He says in it, it's assumed to buy a house overseas.

405
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: And I'm like, where did you get that from? And

406
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: so what I'm upset about in that instance is if

407
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Speaker 2: he knew that eighty thousand had been transferred, why didn't

408
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Speaker 2: he get the bank statement to see where that thousand went,

409
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 2: because that would actually tell us where we are. I

410
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: would not be doing this half my life if that

411
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 2: simple thing had been done. And the reality of it

412
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Speaker 2: is that the eighty thousand dollars Rick Blum handed in

413
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Speaker 2: a document and I don't know if he did this

414
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: on purpose or not, but anyway, he gave a document

415
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 2: to the coroner that was a statement from Commonwealth Bank

416
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: in Ballina showing his address. So that was the purpose

417
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: of that document. And when I looked at it, I

418
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: looked at the date and I went, oh, my god,

419
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 2: that's the fourteenth of October. And he opened a bank

420
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Speaker 2: security en below that day, so hiring Nigel Warren and

421
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Speaker 2: I'm like, Nigel, have you noticed that? And he case, no,

422
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Speaker 2: I haven't yet. And it was just mind blowing for

423
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Speaker 2: me because I went, I just put two and two together.

424
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Speaker 2: And there's been no official anything for mister Blum. I

425
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Speaker 2: just want to say that there's nothing to say that

426
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Speaker 2: he he was involved or not. The Coroner's made her

427
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 2: comments about it, but it just seems a little coincidental

428
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: to me that on the fourteenth of October he opened

429
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 2: a bank security envelope. He was the only person, his

430
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: wife was not noted on it or anything. And then

431
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: the next day eighty thousand dollars comes out of my

432
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 2: mum's bank account. He closes that bank security envelope thirteen

433
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 2: days later.

434
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: Okay, we can't make assertions. They're just the facts.

435
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: So the facts.

436
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: We're presenting the facts. But the coroner can offen their

437
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: opinion in regards to these matters, especially after an extensive inquest.

438
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: And this is what the coroner said in regards to

439
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: the withdrawal of a large amount of cash by your mother.

440
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: I repeat the finding I have made that three hundred

441
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: and four that there is sufficient factual basis to make

442
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 1: a finding that Marion withdrew the sums of money in

443
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 1: August nineteen ninety seven and transferred eighty thousand dollars to

444
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: an unknown account in October nineteen ninety seven on the

445
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: encouragement of mister Blum and in circumstances where Marion believed

446
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: that she was in a relationship with him. However, as

447
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: counsel assistants submitted, there is not enough evidence for a

448
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: finding to the requisite standard as to whether and when

449
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: mister Blum actually received some or all of Marion's money. Okay,

450
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: so she's saying there. My interpretation of it is that

451
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: he was involved in the withdrawal of the money, that

452
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: they can't say whether he received all of it or

453
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 1: some of it.

454
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. And if I can make a point

455
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,719
Speaker 2: here too, Gary, that something that's sort of only just

456
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: come to me in probably the last twelve months is

457
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 2: that Joanie and I quite often chat about, you know,

458
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 2: when when did my mum pass away? Like, at what

459
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: point can we firmly say she's not here anymore? And

460
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 2: we were sort of talking about the fact that she'd

461
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: sent postcards to everyone and led us to everybody, and

462
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: she was keeping everybody. They were like little droppings of

463
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: you know, here I am, this is where I've been. Oh,

464
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: I've visited here, I'm going here. I'm going to Amsterdam

465
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: to see the sunflowers. She was doing that, and so

466
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 2: we sort of had a hunch of where she was

467
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: going and what she was doing, and the fact that

468
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: Christmas was upon us. She could have actually just kept

469
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: in touch with Owen for his birthday. So Owen's birthday

470
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: is the eighteenth of October, so think about this Monday,

471
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: the eighty thousand dollars comes out on the fifteenth of October,

472
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 2: three days later his birthday. She doesn't ring him on

473
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: his birthday. If she was intentionally trying to disappear herself,

474
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 2: didn't want me going to the police saying, hey, something's wrong.

475
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: She just would have sent a card or done something

476
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: at that point is our belief, just to buy her

477
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: a bit more time.

478
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: I understand what you've had.

479
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: I mean, then she's got till Christmas until the next

480
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: point of call. So Joanie and I've been toying with

481
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: this for a while. And what makes my heart break

482
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: even harder is that if you think about I ring Owen,

483
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: he tells me that hasn't spoken to her, then I

484
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: s bring him the next day. So that's the nineteenth.

485
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: Then on the twentieth, Chris and I believe that when

486
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: we went down, But regardless, the twenty second is when

487
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: the police have written we've been to Ironbay Police. That's

488
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: only seven days from when that eighty thousand came out.

489
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 2: Why was that information was fresh at hand? It could

490
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: have been absolutely solved in that.

491
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: Whole talking hypothetically here, But if you came in and

492
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: reported that to a police station, the information that you

493
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: had available at the time, to follow up those bank records,

494
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: check on the names, all the inquiries that could have

495
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: been made at the time, it would have been a

496
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: very simple, simple exercise. Where that would have taken us

497
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: taken place, I don't know, but it would have been

498
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: a simple way.

499
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: And to be fair, I didn't know about the eighty

500
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: thousand at that point, but they did because he wrote

501
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: it on the file and I didn't learn about that

502
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 2: until I got the Freedom of Information file in twenty eighteen.

503
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: Well, they're the type of inquiries you make, like if

504
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: someone's missing, if they're an our adult and they've got

505
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: bank accounts, are they accessing their bank accounts, are they

506
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: receiving a pension? All sorts of things that you would do.

507
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: The Corona also stated in the findings regarding mister Blum

508
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: being in contact with your mother following her return to

509
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: Australia in August nineteen eighty seven, which I think is

510
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: a significant, significant thing. And this is the comments of

511
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: the coroner after hearing all the evidence. There is a

512
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: sufficient basis for me to make a finding that mister

513
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: Blum was in communication with Marian and played some role

514
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: in her life following her return to Australia in August

515
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. So gone overseas, come back, money withdrawn,

516
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: he's around there at the time. This is the coroner's finding.

517
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: It's not not our speculation or assumptions.

518
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: Well yeah, okay, let me explain the Joanie and I

519
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: have done a massive dive on mum's timeline because that

520
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: was something that wasn't really the focus. We felt even

521
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 2: during the inquest, like there wasn't really a lot of

522
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 2: that about her coming back in at that time and

523
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 2: what happened. So we know that her passport lands back

524
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 2: in Brisbane on the second of August. She's written on

525
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: her in coming passenger card that she's staying for eight

526
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: days and staying at the Novtell Hotel in Brisbane, so

527
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 2: that takes us up to the tenth. On the eleventh,

528
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 2: Rick Blum purchases a car for four thousand dollars. It's

529
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: a Russ bucket from a local car dealer that we

530
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: have spoken to who remembers the transaction quite well. He

531
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: said that there was a woman with dark hair sitting

532
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 2: in the car across the road waiting for him while

533
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: he was purchasing that car. This is in Woombar on

534
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: Northern New South Wales. Two days later, my mum's Medicare

535
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: card is used at Grafton. Three days later money starts

536
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: coming out of her bank account and Barren Bay some

537
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: days in Burley, which is back up in Queensland. So

538
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: back in those days it probably was about a two

539
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: and a half hour drive. Right now, people who have

540
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: followed me from the beginning will know that mum left

541
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: her car with me, so she had no car, no house.

542
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: Where was she what was she doing during that period

543
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: of time? And all her pings are happening in northern

544
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: New South Wales and then she disappears at the eighty

545
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: thousand dollar mark for the fifteenth of October.

546
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: Money's gone out.

547
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: So that's her timeline. That's all we know, but it

548
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: is quite interesting when you look at it.

549
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: The coroner also made the following comments. Mister Blum's evidence

550
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,239
Speaker 1: in the final days of the inquest, when asked by

551
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: counsel assisting, would you like to say anything further in

552
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: relation to the disappearance of Marion Barter was extraordinary. This evidence,

553
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: along with his lies and deception throughout the inquest, has

554
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: convinced me that he does indeed no more than he

555
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: is saying. I make the following further findings regarding mister Blum.

556
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: One that he has further knowledge about the circumstances of

557
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: Marian's travel overseas. Two, that he has further knowledge of

558
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: his relationship with her, in the months prior to her disappearance.

559
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: Three that he has further knowledge of her circumstances following

560
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: her return from overseas. Four that he has further knowledge

561
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: of the withdrawals and transfer of the money. And five

562
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: that there is sufficient basis for a finding that he

563
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: was and is deliberately unwilling to divulge this further knowledge

564
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: to the court.

565
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: Again, pretty damning, but I was just left at that point.

566
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about that when the actual

567
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: findings come down. Let me just read this on and

568
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: I put it there. I'll put it in so what

569
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about that, hopefully we can get it out there.

570
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: I should put on record that the Coroner's court is

571
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: not a criminal court. No person is on trial when

572
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: they appear at inquest. We cannot say mister Blum was

573
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: involved in your mother's disappearance. We're just relaying the findings

574
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: of the coroner. If there was sufficient evidence against the

575
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: known person, the coroner has the option of suspending the

576
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: inquest and referring the matter to the Office of Director

577
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: of Public Prosecutions. And this was not the case in

578
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: your mother's inquest. So I'm putting that disclaimer out on

579
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. So we're making it very clear

580
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: that yeah, these are the findings of the coroner, but

581
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: the matter wasn't referred to the DPP. But hearing those

582
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: type of comments and I pick up on your body

583
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: language now and just it's almost like it's an anti

584
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 1: climax for you, isn't it.

585
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: It's really frustrating, very frustrating to get to all that,

586
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: like it's taken. It took me twenty six years to

587
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: get to that point. And you know, if you think

588
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: about all the twists and turns and the upheaval that

589
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: I've had to go through with even just having her

590
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: listed as missing then they say she's located, then they

591
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,239
Speaker 2: say she's not located. Now she's a missing person on

592
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: the national Register. Go and be the face of missing persons. Actually, no,

593
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: you can't be the face of missing persons. Like it's

594
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: just been a massive ride for me, and I do

595
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: this now still because I don't want anyone else to

596
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,959
Speaker 2: have to do what I've had to go through. And

597
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: it needs to change on multiple levels. It needs to

598
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: like the police need to understand their language and how

599
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: they talk to people who are living in this world.

600
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: There needs to be government bodies who need to look

601
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: at some of these policies and procedures about things like absentia.

602
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: You know, in other countries, if someone goes missing after

603
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: seven years, the next of kin can actually access their

604
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: private information. If I'd been able to access her private

605
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: information seven years after she went missing, I would have

606
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: probably got things like the Medicare card with a potential

607
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: address on it and a phone number for me to

608
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: be able to work out where she is, or look

609
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: at her bank statements while those things were still available

610
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: before they're destroyed. And this is where it gets hard

611
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: because some people go, why Sally only looking now, I've

612
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: been looking forever. But you know, it's the restraints on

613
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 2: you as someone living with a missing person, even as

614
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: the next of kin, you are absolutely powerless until such

615
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: time as you get a death certificate. And you know,

616
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: I go back to the scenario where I'm reading through

617
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: the file and I've got the coroner's court actually requesting

618
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: a P seventy nine B form multiple times over that duration,

619
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: and there was no one handling the case. So therefore

620
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: no one had done a PECE seventy nine B form,

621
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: which is a form that you fill in and send

622
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: into the care the police fill in and send into

623
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: a coroner if a person has not been seen or

624
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 2: sighted and deemed potentially deceased within a year of that

625
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: person going missing. And that didn't happen for my month.

626
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: So all these little failings the coroner didn't miss the

627
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: police in regards to it. The coroner also made some

628
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: comments in regards to the adequacy of the police investigation,

629
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: because this inquest was interesting. It was about whether your

630
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: mother's still alive and the adequacy of the police investigation.

631
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: So that was the terms of reference that the coroner

632
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: was finding and this is a finding that she handed

633
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: down regarding the police investigation that coroner stated. I would

634
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: also add the detective Chief Inspector Brown gave very clear

635
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: and useful evidence to the court about what he expected

636
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: should have happened in nineteen ninety seven. The resistance in

637
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: this inquest by New South Wales Police to accept the

638
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: inadequacies of the initial police investigation in nineteen ninety seven

639
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: is difficult to understand in circumstances where a senior police

640
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: officer has given what is essentially expert evidence and what

641
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: should have happened. So it looks my take on that

642
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: they were still digging down that I know. We did

643
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: everything that we could do.

644
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: It was hard. My husband and I both were challenged

645
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: by New South Fois police barrister. It was pretty pretty rough,

646
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: if you know. And it was captured and put on

647
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: the Lady Vanishes. We actually did all of the episodes

648
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: about the inquest and people were watching live. There were

649
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: thousands of people following along on YouTube. And yeah, it

650
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: was not pleasant for me. And that whole theory about

651
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: you know, an inquest is about looking after the family

652
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: and making sure the family are okay. That was not

653
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: the case at all. Like that's when I went on

654
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: heart medication because I was getting put through the ring.

655
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: We were getting quizzed, like Chris and I both getting

656
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: quizzed about when we booked our holiday to go skiing.

657
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: And you know, why didn't I write down notes when

658
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: mum rang me on that phone, that last phone call,

659
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: and I was trying to explain to she wasn't missing,

660
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: she was not missing when we booked our holiday or

661
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 2: when she rang me on the phone. Do you write

662
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: down every time your mum talks to you on the phone.

663
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 2: Do you make a little note in the diary, Hey, mum,

664
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: said this, and it was this time, in this date,

665
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen. That's not logical to do that, and

666
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: I was getting quizzed and criticized for not doing that

667
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: as a twenty three year old at the time, and

668
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: also the criticism of me I didn't walk into the

669
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: police station and use the word missing. So I think

670
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: that's mainly what the coroner is referring to there, and

671
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 2: that was hard to hear for a lot of people.

672
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: I think I said to you at the start when

673
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 1: you said that, don't put any blame on yourself. You've

674
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: done more than what most people would do. I think

675
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: the point here I'd like to make because the people

676
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: assume the way I finished my career this is a

677
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: chance to beat up on the New South Wels Police.

678
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: Not at all. I'd like to think if we make mistakes,

679
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: we make sure these mistakes do happen again. And I'm

680
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: heartened by the fact that it looks like Inspector Brown

681
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: call them out on the failings. It's sad that the

682
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: coroner is saying that the police were still resistant to

683
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: acknowledging it, because I think the best thing if a

684
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: mistake has been made, acknowledge them stake and move on.

685
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: I know, not just from your matter. I know practices

686
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: in missing persons have been improved in recent times, and

687
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: I hope this is a lesson. And it might be

688
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: in part because of the noise that you've made to

689
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: make sure practices have been improved, but I hope people

690
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: listening understand the impact of if things aren't done properly

691
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: from the start. This is now twenty seven years down

692
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: the track or more, carry that.

693
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: Burden, and I twenty eight years in June.

694
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: I hadn't actually thought of it until I sat down

695
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: opposite you here today. It's not just the fact that

696
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: the frustration of not finding out what happened to your

697
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: mother and problems or mistakes that were made in the

698
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: initial investigation, but the fact that you had to for

699
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: the carry with you based on information that the police

700
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: have provided to you that your mother just doesn't want

701
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: to talk to you. So that's another burden that you've

702
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: had to carry.

703
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: I just ignored that. I just keep it. I'm like, oh, no,

704
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: my mum loved me, you know, so you know it's

705
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: it's yeah, yeah, I don't need them to tell me otherwise.

706
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 2: But I knew something was wrong and I knew there

707
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: there was a man in the car, and I just

708
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: got my brain was just going a million miles an hour,

709
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 2: going something's not right.

710
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: Well, the coroner, and this is what the coroner is

711
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: required under section eighty one one. There's a couple of

712
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: key things that the corona has to come to a

713
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: conclusion that the inquest and I'll just read those out

714
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: and then we can talk about that too. In REGARDSS

715
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: to the identity of the deceased, the person who died

716
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 1: was Flora Bella Natalia Marion Remarkable formally known as Marion

717
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: bart Date of death. Unable to determine the exact date

718
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: of death. I find that Flora Bella Natila Marion Ramachel,

719
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: formally know and as Marion Barta, is likely to have

720
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: died on a date after the fifteenth of October nineteen

721
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: ninety seven. Place of death. I'm unable to determine the

722
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: place of Florabella Natalia Marion Ramachel formerly Marion Barthur's death.

723
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: Cause of death. I'm unable to determine the cause of

724
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: death of Florabella Natalia Marion remark El formerly known Marion

725
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: Bartha's death. So doesn't he the cause? Place? Day to death,

726
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: suggesting after the fifteenth of October, in regards to the

727
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: manner of death, I'm unable to determine the manner. So

728
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: for all your battles, all your endeavors to find out

729
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: what's happened to your mum, all these years later, the inquest,

730
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: the build up, seeing all these things that have played out,

731
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: and getting what you've seen, which the coroners obviously commented

732
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: on about the Rick Blum and the issues issues. There

733
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: is unreliability and you're left with a basically acknowledgment that

734
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: your mother's died, but we're not sure how. We're all why.

735
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: It's a chronic week. My father in law died on

736
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 2: the Sunday, so Chris was busily packing up his accommodation

737
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: where he was in care on the Tuesday, and we

738
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: flew down on the Wednesday. Caught up with one of

739
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 2: my best friends that I was working at Pizza Hut

740
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 2: with when I was eighteen. We've been friends our whole

741
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: lives pretty much from there. He came and met us

742
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: in the city just to come and say hi. There's

743
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: a couple of us just gathering having a drink before

744
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: the coroner's findings. The next day go to the coroner's

745
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 2: findings by hear for the first time my mom's deceased.

746
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 2: He then died the following Wednesday. He had a problem

747
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: with his heart and he died. And so within a

748
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 2: week I lost one of my best friends, I lost

749
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: my father in law, and I got told my mum's deceased.

750
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: That point, for me with Mum, I felt like everyone

751
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: just wished me well and went about their business. So

752
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: the legal teams, the lawyers, crownslistors.

753
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: But you've had a victory.

754
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: No, we're just like they all just left. Like I

755
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: literally just was there by myself. I had so many

756
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 2: people come, like it was amazing. I had people come,

757
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: they all wore green, had made massive support for mum,

758
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: and that just made me feel so much better being

759
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: in that situation. But from a legal standpoint and from

760
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: the police, I've just been told that they've got eight

761
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: hundred cases and they've got to prioritize that my mum's

762
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: case is open but inactive and good luck. Because Joanie

763
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: and I had decided we were going to go on

764
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 2: a trip overseas to do more research about the things

765
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: that we knew we needed to do, and we did that.

766
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's been wild It's been a wild ride,

767
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 2: and it doesn't stop just because the coroner has said

768
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: what I felt for a long time. I was very

769
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 2: grateful for the coroner. She had really good I just

770
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 2: had a nice way about her. She greeted me, well,

771
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: she recognized me. She did a good job I think

772
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 2: of managing an inquest that was very hard to sit through,

773
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: very very hard to sit through. So I'm very grateful

774
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 2: to her and everybody who worked on it, the crownslstitors

775
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: and the current you know, homicide team. But it just

776
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: makes it hard when her findings stopped short of pushing

777
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: it forward for further investigation.

778
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well one of the recommendations New South Wales Commissioner

779
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: of Police cause the investigation into the death of the

780
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,439
Speaker 1: missing person to be referred to or remain with State

781
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: Crime Command Unsolved Homicide Team fromgoing investigations, review and monitoring.

782
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a yeah, as you'll flag, there's a

783
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: lot of cases there, hoping that gets the attention. But

784
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, like the build up, you've

785
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 1: got all this information, You're thinking, Okay, are we going

786
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: to get some form of justice or at least find

787
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 1: out what's happened to her mother, and then that's been Yeah,

788
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: yes she's deceased. But you're left with where do you

789
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: go from here?

790
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look in there's I've come across quite a

791
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: few missing person's cases where a person might be missing,

792
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: but the police don't deem that person to be missing.

793
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: And you know, that was me for a long time.

794
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: And therefore, I mean I was in a different circumstance

795
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: where my mum had sold her house, so she didn't

796
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: have a house to you know, deal with or contend

797
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 2: with and things like that, but she did have a

798
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: bank accounts, and I think I mentioned that, you know,

799
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: they kept taking the monthly fees from my missing person's

800
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: mum's banks account, and they were very kind and they

801
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: just like credited them back to the account. And it

802
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: wasn't a huge amount of money. But you know, I

803
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 2: think of all those things, and I've spoken to some

804
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: people who were married to somebody who's gone missing, but

805
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: they don't deem that person missing in a legal sense

806
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: of the word. They don't get a death certificate, and

807
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: therefore they can't sell the house, they can't move forward.

808
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 2: They're locked in this world because of the privacy issue

809
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: because that person they believe could have chosen to go missing.

810
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 2: And I kept getting told all the time through my journey, oh, well,

811
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: it's not a crime to go missing, Sally, and I said, well,

812
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: maybe it should be because the amount of money and

813
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: time and effort and we spend and government money and

814
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: tax payer money to go and find missing persons. And

815
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: when you're talking forty thousand people a year agoing missing

816
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: and there's no fund in.

817
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: Australia offense in New South Wales, I'm not sure if

818
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: it's applicable to it. But public mischief where your actions

819
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: cause the police to investigate, to investigate the crime. Maybe

820
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I said that the start. I

821
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question, what's the best outcome

822
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: you could get with your mother's disappearance? Now? Best if

823
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: someone said, are you really hoping for?

824
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 2: I would really like justice to be served. My mum

825
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 2: was a person. My mum matters. Hence why I've started

826
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: my new podcast called The Missing Matter, because the missing

827
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: do matter, and you know, justice needs to be served

828
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: and it shouldn't be judged upon whether one case should

829
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: be go forward or not. It should just be a

830
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 2: case of if the evidence is there and there's something

831
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: to move forward on, they should.

832
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: So with the new podcast, what are you hoping to achieve?

833
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 2: Well, the podcast The Lady Vanishes ended when the inquest ended,

834
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: and you know, to be fair to Channel seven, I

835
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: guess I was with them for six years. It was

836
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: a very long journey with them. When they first met me,

837
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: they were like, oh, yep, we'll whip together seven or

838
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 2: eight episodes, it'll be done. We'll get the story out

839
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 2: there and hopefully we might find something. But it became

840
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: this ongoing live investigation that we were telling the story

841
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: in real time, so it became bigger than ben Her

842
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 2: for us. And you know, my goal was to get

843
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: to an inquest. I said that from the very outset.

844
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: I said, I I just want a proper investigation. I

845
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 2: haven't felt like I haven't had that, and I feel

846
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: like going to inquest would be a really great opportunity

847
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: for us to do a proper investigation into what's happened

848
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: to my mum, and I'll be satisfied with that. That

849
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 2: then changed a little bit in my head because I

850
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,959
Speaker 2: then got the death certificate. Sorry, well, I was told

851
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: that she had passed, which allowed me to get the

852
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 2: desk ticket. That's a whole nother story in itself, and

853
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 2: I just I don't know. I last year, I was

854
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: just sort of recording myself because I'd become this person

855
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: who records everything now because of probably the trauma of

856
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: not recording and being in a position of not having

857
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: that as evidence or information. And so that's who I've

858
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: become as a person. That drives my family bananas. I

859
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 2: tell my kids to record everything, and just when I

860
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: say record, if I get off the phone to somebody,

861
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: I would just do a voice memo to myself to

862
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 2: remind me of what happened in that phone call, because

863
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: I know too often I've done that, or I'm in

864
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: the car and then you forget and then you go, oh,

865
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: what did they say again? So it became very important

866
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 2: for me because I wasn't getting a lot in emails

867
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: or in writing. It was all verbal. So I would

868
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: get off the phone and I'd jump on my voicemails

869
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: on my phone and i'd actually voice memo myself. And

870
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: that became a thing last year too, when I was

871
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: trying to go through all the hoops that you go

872
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 2: through when a person is actually declared deceased. Who's missing.

873
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 2: That's a whole nother ballgame. I mentioned that my father

874
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: in law and one of my best friends died the

875
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: same week as my mum. Their affairs were tied up

876
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 2: very quickly, you know. I came down to the funeral

877
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 2: for my friend within ten days and he's having a burial,

878
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 2: and you know, we're going through those motions, and I'm

879
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 2: sure there's paperwork and things after that. It took me

880
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: up to December, from the same time, from February to

881
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: December before I actually had any formal closure of mum's life.

882
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: And for me, it was just this part of the

883
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: journey where I had to process and go through everything.

884
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 2: So I was documenting that journey for me myself. And

885
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: then Joanie and I of course had decided we were

886
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: going to go overseas and we were going to do

887
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: our own investigation on the things that weren't addressed at

888
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: the inquest. I asked her to come with me. She

889
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: said yes, and so that became a thing, and we

890
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 2: went away in October for three weeks and we found

891
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 2: some things, and so it became a thing where people

892
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 2: were asking us, you know, when are you going to

893
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 2: tell us When are you going to tell us what

894
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: you found? Because by this point I've got twenty seven

895
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 2: thousand people following on Facebook now from my mere thousand

896
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: back in you know, twenty thirteen. So I'd built up

897
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 2: this amazing community of people who care, which is what's

898
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 2: really given me the strength to keep going, I feel

899
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: over time, and they all kept saying like, when are

900
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 2: you gonna tellus? When you gonna tell I'm like, well,

901
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I want to tell anybody,

902
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: Like maybe I just want to do it for myself,

903
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: and maybe I just want to, you know, find out.

904
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: But I felt that they'd all been so dedicated to

905
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 2: the purpose of helping me and coming up with these ideas,

906
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 2: even the little comment about the Luxembourg as recently as

907
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: last night, Like these people are so invested. I felt like, okay,

908
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: maybe we could tell them. And then I was trying

909
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: to work out how we would do that, and it

910
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: just so happened that the idea of doing our own

911
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: podcast with Joanie and I came to play. So Johnnie

912
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 2: was really nervous. She's like, I've listened to podcasts for

913
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 2: twenty years. I've never been on one word, certainly not

914
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 2: our own. So it kind of just came out of nowhere.

915
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: I've been talking and you know, using hashtag the Missing

916
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 2: Matter for so long and Marian matters, and then I

917
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 2: started thinking about it. I'm like, you know what, everyone matters.

918
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 2: Matthew matters, Janine Vaughan manters, James matters. You know, they

919
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: all matter. It doesn't matter where they've gone missing or

920
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,959
Speaker 2: how they've gone missing, if they're still not found, they matter,

921
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: and we need to we need to look after those people.

922
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 2: So it kind of became a bit of a journey

923
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: for me as to what I've had to deal with

924
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 2: in the Missing Matter podcasts, but in the hope that

925
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 2: we can actually help other people in that same space.

926
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: Well, I honestly think you're inspiring the people who have

927
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: been in the same situation, and let's hope there's not

928
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: many people in but yeah, I said the same thing

929
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: to Mark and Vay Levison. Yeah, they have inspired people

930
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: and helped people. I think you're in that position because

931
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: you understand. Unless you mean in that position, you don't

932
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: really get it. And the other flip side of it,

933
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: too is making people accountable with responsible for investigating people's disappearances.

934
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: There needs to be that accountability. I think you've done

935
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: a great job. I'm disappointed you didn't get in the

936
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: Queensland Police and then swapped over the New South Wales.

937
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: I could have used you on some investigations. You're very thorough.

938
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: Well I've had to be, I guess, but that's just

939
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 2: who I am as a person, I think, and I

940
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: really I was so passionate about it too, and I

941
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 2: just look, the circumstances of me getting in were just

942
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 2: a little bit there. With my husband, he was like,

943
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if I want you to be a

944
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 2: police officer and you know, out on the beat at

945
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: nighttime and us having babies, like it was more about that,

946
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 2: and I chose to be a mom. Yeah, And you know,

947
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: I'm so glad I did because I've got three great

948
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 2: cook great children and that's that and being a wife

949
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 2: to Chris, who's just been my rock. He's we've been

950
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 2: together for thirty years now and he has been through

951
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 2: all of this with me.

952
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: What's your happiest memory of your mom?

953
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: Oh, she was a very good cook, and I'm I

954
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: am really happy that I have actually got her cookbook

955
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 2: that she had and she's had that from when she

956
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 2: was young, so you can see. And I love this

957
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: because her writing was absolutely meticulous and beautiful and like

958
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: very school teacher esque. And then it gets to the

959
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: end and it's just scroll. And I remember Gary Adam

960
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: Castleton during the inquase, he was trying to read one

961
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: of her postcards and he mentioned that he goes, I

962
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 2: can hardly read her writing, and in it the back

963
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,919
Speaker 2: of the book she actually, this is how my mum

964
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: became who she was later in life. So she'd be

965
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 2: on the phone and her girlfriend's telling her about her

966
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 2: carrot cake recipe, and she'd be writing it down on

967
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 2: the back of a Christmas card or a back of

968
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: you remember those little flip diaries that used to have

969
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: with the pieces of paper and you'd frip them off.

970
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 2: So she'd write little scribbles of what recipe it was,

971
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: and she'd just chuck it in the back of the book.

972
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 2: So I've kept it exactly as it is, her Pavlova

973
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 2: recipes in there. Any of my girlfriends will, I'm sure

974
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: agree that the Pavlova recipe is pretty amazing, so I'm

975
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 2: pretty renowned for that. I've tweaked it a few times

976
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 2: with a few different topics, but it always reminds me

977
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: of my mum, and cooking for me is my happy place,

978
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 2: and memories for her out of her cookbook, which.

979
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: Is lovely, fantastic, fantastic. We've dug very deep into comments

980
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: from the coroner, and I just want to it's probably

981
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: a good way to finish that. This is what the

982
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: coroner said about you and your efforts to get justice

983
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: for your mother. Okay, So I'd like to acknowledge and

984
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: commend Sally on her unwavering commitment and participation in the

985
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: coronial investigation and in quest to find out what happened

986
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: to her mother. She's shown for the tude, dignity, resilience,

987
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: and grace throughout these proceedings. That's pretty nice.

988
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 2: It was nice to hear that because I had been

989
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: through the ringer, so I was very happy to see

990
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: her and go, I'm really happy that you've said that, Coroner,

991
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 2: because I did try very hard to stay composed, and

992
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 2: there was times where I wanted to scream. I did

993
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: have There was a moment where I actually asked Rick

994
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: Blum if he murdered my mother on the stand, and

995
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 2: he said no, and then he got up and he

996
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 2: left and they helped him off the stand into his

997
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 2: wheely walker, and he walked out of the courtroom and

998
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 2: most of the people had left, and I remember leaning

999
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 2: forward to the police commissioner's help. Her counsel sorry, yes,

1000
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:23,919
Speaker 2: and she had a box of tissues, and I said,

1001
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 2: would I please be able to have a tissue? And

1002
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: she handed me the tissue and my whole body just

1003
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: went into an absolute freak of stress. I was shaking,

1004
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 2: i was crying. I had my head down in my lap.

1005
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: My whole body was convulsing. I've got the homicide team

1006
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,959
Speaker 2: behind me, and my husband's yelling at them, going do more,

1007
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 2: like this is crazy, Like you know, she's look at her,

1008
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 2: she's looking how she's coping. So I don't break down.

1009
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: I'm pretty tough. I'm a pretty tough cookie. But that

1010
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: was a bad moment for me because I just felt like,

1011
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 2: you get to that point and they say no, no,

1012
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 2: and he walked away, and I just went I just

1013
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,720
Speaker 2: felt like my heart just fell on the floor.

1014
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can understand that was.

1015
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 2: Bad, but anyway, you pick yourself up and you keep going, right,

1016
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 2: there's no point in well.

1017
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: I think the greatest compliment you can have as a

1018
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: detective saying that I wouldn't want that person after me

1019
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: and the person that might have knowledge or involvement in

1020
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: the disappearance of your mother, I wouldn't like to be

1021
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 1: that person with you on the tail.

1022
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: So well, sadly didn't get to me. Joanie, she's a cracker,

1023
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 2: she's all over it, and we've been working together for

1024
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 2: six years and she keeps saying to me, I'm going

1025
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: to keep going as long as you want me to.

1026
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 2: I'll keep going.

1027
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: I love the passion and dedication and that's what it

1028
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: takes and never never give up on it. And it

1029
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: will also shout out to anyone that's got any information

1030
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: about that, bring it forward to the police. It's still

1031
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: been handled and is a detective Chief Inspector Nigel Warren,

1032
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: the officer in charge. I've at work with Nigel. I

1033
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 1: know he's work and he's a good operator to pass

1034
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: the information.

1035
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a good guy. And we've also got a

1036
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 2: website too called the Missing Matter, and we've got an

1037
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 2: anonymous tip line on there too. So sometimes people have

1038
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 2: said to me, I didn't feel comfortable going to the police,

1039
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 2: so I didn't feel comfortable going to the media. And

1040
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 2: they've wanted to contact me, and I keep everything as

1041
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 2: tight lipter as you can get, and I pass on

1042
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 2: everything to the police via that means if they choose

1043
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 2: to allow that to happen. It's been very difficult to

1044
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 2: manage that, but I think it's important to have it

1045
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 2: there just in case, just for people to feel comfortable

1046
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 2: if they do know something.

1047
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, thanks Sally, thanks for coming on the podcast,

1048
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: and I hope you get the answers that you're seeking.

1049
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: You deserve it.

1050
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,919
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Thanks for everything you do too.

1051
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 2: I think I think you've done amazing things in life,

1052
00:56:54,320 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 2: so thank you. Bat never need to na