Speaker 1: My mother would have said, if you make your bed,
Speaker 1: you lie in it.
Speaker 2: They're known as the Isis Brides, eleven women and twenty
Speaker 2: three kids who for nearly a decade have languished in
Speaker 2: a dusty desert detention camp in northern Syria. Some of
Speaker 2: the children have known no other home, but the PM
Speaker 2: insists the group aren't welcome here.
Speaker 1: These are people who went overseas supporting Islamic state and
Speaker 1: went there to provide support for people who basically want
Speaker 1: a caliphate.
Speaker 2: This week they tried to make their way back home,
Speaker 2: but at the last minute they were turned around at
Speaker 2: a checkpoint and back where they started.
Speaker 3: They're all Australian citizens, and you know, it breaks my
Speaker 3: heart to think of all these kids, these kids as
Speaker 3: young as five, going through this hongo and trauma.
Speaker 2: I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to set a today.
Speaker 2: Green Senator David Shubridge and Professor Joshua landis founder of
Speaker 2: the Syria Comment blog on the threat of radicalization, the
Speaker 2: hope of rehabilitation, and what happens next is chaos takes
Speaker 2: over in Syria. It's Thursday, February nineteen. David, could you
Speaker 2: start off by reminding us who these families are that
Speaker 2: are trying to leave this detention camp in Syria and
Speaker 2: how did they end up there in the first place.
Speaker 3: The bulk of the Australians in this detention camp, and
Speaker 3: it's in a desert in the northeast part of Syria.
Speaker 3: The bulk of the children they were either brought over
Speaker 3: to Syria at an incredibly young age We're talking, you know,
Speaker 3: tiny infants, or they've been born in Syria, or they've
Speaker 3: been born in the detention camp. So the bulk of
Speaker 3: them are children aged from as young as five through
Speaker 3: to twelve or thirty.
Speaker 4: And then there are some of their mums as well.
Speaker 3: So we're talking about thirty four people who were on
Speaker 3: the bus around about twenty four of them are children.
Speaker 4: I've spoken with three of the women.
Speaker 3: I've visited the detention camp in September of last year,
Speaker 3: and they're women who are now in their late twenties
Speaker 3: early thirties. They had come over to Syria, some of
Speaker 3: them I know as their partners, the wives of people
Speaker 3: who were fighting in Isis with all of that toxic
Speaker 3: ideology in Isis. They have been as young as seventeen
Speaker 3: eighteen or nineteen. These women, they expressed to me, the
Speaker 3: ones I spoke to, how deeply regretful they were of
Speaker 3: that terrible life decision and how very young they were
Speaker 3: at the time they went over. But you know, I
Speaker 3: don't know the story of each of the women. And
Speaker 3: they found their way into Syria.
Speaker 1: Islamic States have lost their Syrian capital, Ruka.
Speaker 3: And then when the Kurdish horses defeated the ISIS regime,
Speaker 3: and you know, thank you to the Kurdish forces and
Speaker 3: many of them Kurdish women fighters who defeated ISIS. These
Speaker 3: women and their kids got swept up and put into
Speaker 3: a detention camp and they've been held in a detention
Speaker 3: camp for a decade now in northeast Syria. And they
Speaker 3: don't want any part of the conflict in Syria. They
Speaker 3: don't want any part of ISIS. They want to go
Speaker 3: home and bring their kids home. And that's meant they've
Speaker 3: been quite isolated and targeted by some of the other
Speaker 3: people in the camp, who you know, maintain that sort
Speaker 3: of strong push, that ideological push. So they're very isolated.
Speaker 3: There's been instances of violence against them in the camp.
Speaker 3: The kids can't go to the school because they're not
Speaker 3: safe at the school. And you know, it's a series
Speaker 3: of tents and dusty tracks surrounded by barbed wire in
Speaker 3: the middle of a desert in northeast Syria. It's a
Speaker 3: deeply dispariting place.
Speaker 2: So, David, as you said, on Monday, these women and
Speaker 2: the kids, they got on a bus. They were planning
Speaker 2: to leave the camp, get to Damascus and then hopefully
Speaker 2: on to be route and eventually home.
Speaker 5: At the camp in northeastern Syria, a group of women
Speaker 5: and children hurriedly climbed into waiting vans, their faces covered
Speaker 5: with scarps, masks and sunglasses and bags packed.
Speaker 2: But of course, as we know, they were turned back.
Speaker 2: Do we know why that happened or what happened.
Speaker 3: I don't know exactly why it's happened. I've been talking
Speaker 3: with people who are in contact with the families and
Speaker 3: their representatives, and what appears is they got through almost
Speaker 3: all the checkpoints that you passed through going from the
Speaker 3: camp across into the area controlled by the regime and Damascus,
Speaker 3: and they went through I'm told they went through multiple
Speaker 3: of these checkpoints and they were stopped at the final checkpoint.
Speaker 4: And then turned around.
Speaker 3: And there are multiple potential reasons why that has happened,
Speaker 3: and one of the reasons given to us was that
Speaker 3: there had been no effective communication from the Australian government
Speaker 3: to the regime in.
Speaker 4: Damascus to allow that to happen.
Speaker 3: I can't tell you for sure that that's true, but
Speaker 3: I do know they got turned around at the last checkpoint,
Speaker 3: and that would have just been sold destroying. I think
Speaker 3: about all those little kids in the bus, close to
Speaker 3: getting out of this prison, that many of them meeting
Speaker 3: for their life and then failing at their last turtle
Speaker 3: really sold destroying.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: It is unfortunate for the children that caught up.
Speaker 1: It is, but we have a very firm view that
Speaker 1: we won't be providing assistance or repatriation.
Speaker 2: David, the PM said about these women, you made your
Speaker 2: bed and now lie in it.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 2: Many of these women, as we just heard, they chose
Speaker 2: to follow their partners over to Syria and to join ISIS.
Speaker 2: And there are Australians who agree with the PM and
Speaker 2: they're worried about them being radicalized, especially after what's happened
Speaker 2: at Bondai. So can you understand why the government isn't
Speaker 2: that keen to welcome them back.
Speaker 3: I can understand people's anxiety about the women and if
Speaker 3: any of them have committed crimes or they have engaged
Speaker 3: in criminal activities where they should be absolutely be held
Speaker 3: to account under Australian law. I can't believe the prime
Speaker 3: ministers said that about a five year old kid or
Speaker 3: a six year old girl. That I saw a seven
Speaker 3: year old kid or an eight year old kid saying
Speaker 3: to Australian children, you made your bed and you sleep
Speaker 3: in it. These children are innocent victims in this. They're
Speaker 3: Australian children and the great majority of these people on
Speaker 3: the bus were Australian kids who had no agency, no
Speaker 3: control over what was happening to them. You know, it's
Speaker 3: hard to realize this, but Anthony Albernezi is failing that
Speaker 3: the morals has set up by Scott Morrison, who in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two brought a number of women and children
Speaker 3: home from the detention camp in Syria, put in place
Speaker 3: structures with AZO and the AFP to oversight that return,
Speaker 3: put in place reintegration resources so the kids had as
Speaker 3: safe a return as possible.
Speaker 4: You know, I was appalled.
Speaker 3: And shocked and horrified that a labor Prime minister would
Speaker 3: say that about kids.
Speaker 2: And David, one last question from me, do you know
Speaker 2: what other countries are doing about their nationals stuck in
Speaker 2: these camps? Because there are hundreds of people from all
Speaker 2: over the world, from Asia, from Europe, from Canada that
Speaker 2: the UK has had a really hardline position on them.
Speaker 2: So where does Australia fit into.
Speaker 5: All of that?
Speaker 2: Is its position sort of the way most countries are
Speaker 2: looking at it.
Speaker 3: Australia's position is uniquely awful, refusing to have any engagement
Speaker 3: to bring back their own citizens. And what I've been
Speaker 3: to the camp, there's two layers of security at the camp.
Speaker 3: The external security is by a group of women Kurdish
Speaker 3: fighters and other fighters. And they're tough, right, They've been
Speaker 3: fighting Isis for over a decade. And I met with
Speaker 3: them when I went to the camp, and they said
Speaker 3: to me, these tough women who fought Isis and seeing
Speaker 3: their friends and family die. They said, why isn't Australia
Speaker 3: taking these women and children home? They're your women and children.
Speaker 3: Why are you making us look after your women and children?
Speaker 3: And they also said, like the Australians are not the problem.
Speaker 3: There's another camp full of some fifty thousand largely men. Incredibly,
Speaker 3: you know, connected to Isis incredible security risks associated with
Speaker 3: those detainees, but these women and especially these children are
Speaker 3: not the issue when it comes to the extremes it.
Speaker 2: David, thanks for speaking with us today.
Speaker 4: Pleasure, good speaking.
Speaker 2: Coming up. Just how real is the threat of radicalization
Speaker 2: for these women and kids, Josh. We just heard from
Speaker 2: one of our local politicians, David Shubridge, about the need
Speaker 2: to rehabilitate these women and children who've been inside ISIS. Now,
Speaker 2: how worried do you think the public should be about
Speaker 2: them being radicalized in these camps?
Speaker 7: Well, now, these women and children are the thirty four
Speaker 7: Australians who might be coming home. They've been there for
Speaker 7: eight years. So many of those children are We don't
Speaker 7: have any clue if they're radicalized or not radicalized.
Speaker 6: And same with the women. It's a mixed bag.
Speaker 7: There are many women who've come out of those camps
Speaker 7: and said, look, I don't believe in Islam anymore. I
Speaker 7: just want to go home. I want to take care
Speaker 7: of my kids, I want to get them in education.
Speaker 7: So there are mothers from right across the spectrum. You're
Speaker 7: going to get a totally mixed bag, but it's been
Speaker 7: chaos since they were arrested because the Kurdish militia that
Speaker 7: had control of these people in our whole camp, they
Speaker 7: did not have jurisdiction to try these people. America was
Speaker 7: paying for the camp to be held and paying for
Speaker 7: them to hold these people, but America was not interested
Speaker 7: in repatriating or and no one else was, so they
Speaker 7: just got dumped and were kept in this interment camp.
Speaker 7: And now most of them are just been let go
Speaker 7: and there have been a small number that have been
Speaker 7: moved up to Aleppo, but we believe about twenty thousand
Speaker 7: have just fled into Syria, including about six thousand foreigners.
Speaker 7: So these Australians are a small little subset of this group,
Speaker 7: and clearly the Australian government is going to have to
Speaker 7: do some investigation and they're going to have to send
Speaker 7: them to evaluators and figure that out.
Speaker 2: Across the Middle East, though, have there been efforts in
Speaker 2: other countries to try and deradicalize people who had been
Speaker 2: members of Islamic state.
Speaker 7: There have been in Sadi Arabia has a very good
Speaker 7: program they have used in Moms and other Islamic authorities.
Speaker 7: They've given classes and they've had these, you know, sort
Speaker 7: of seminars and discussion groups, sort of like an AA group.
Speaker 7: But they've taken them seriously and that's the most important part,
Speaker 7: and they've discussed it with them, and I think the
Speaker 7: government is going to have to do something.
Speaker 2: Like that, Josh, if we could talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about the broader context of what's happening in Syria. Last month,
Speaker 2: we had the Syrian army sweep into the northern part
Speaker 2: of the country and take over those areas that the
Speaker 2: Kurds had controlled during the civil war. As we know,
Speaker 2: they're now emptying these Isis Islamic state detention camps out.
Speaker 2: Why is the government doing.
Speaker 6: That, Well, We've got two major reasons.
Speaker 7: One is that this government is led by the head
Speaker 7: of al Qaeda, who used to be the head of
Speaker 7: al Qaeda in Syria.
Speaker 6: Ah'ming a shut up.
Speaker 7: Secondly, those people in the camps, those Isis family members,
Speaker 7: many of them come from the tribal members of northeastern Syria.
Speaker 7: But now that I'm going to shut up has swept
Speaker 7: up there. And we've got to remember that many of
Speaker 7: the auxiliary troops he used to roll back the Kurds
Speaker 7: were better in tribes and it's their relatives who are
Speaker 7: in these camps. So they have rolled into these camps
Speaker 7: and they want to let them go. They feel sorry
Speaker 7: for them, they feel like they've been unjustly treated, which
Speaker 7: they have in a sense because they've just been locked
Speaker 7: up and the key has been thrown away, no trials,
Speaker 7: no investigation. So there's a great deal of sympathy for
Speaker 7: these people and a feeling that they've been persecuted both
Speaker 7: by the Americans, by the international community, and by the Kurds.
Speaker 7: So they're letting them go.
Speaker 2: So, Josh, what's going to happen to all of these detainees, because,
Speaker 2: as you said, some of them are being set free
Speaker 2: in Syria, some of them going home to other countries,
Speaker 2: some of them ending up in Iraq. What's going on?
Speaker 6: It's going to be chaos.
Speaker 7: And Syria has been chaos for the last year because
Speaker 7: at the height of the opposition fight against the Osid regime,
Speaker 7: there were one thousand, five hundred different militias in Syria.
Speaker 7: I'm going to shut it took over, but he was
Speaker 7: one militia. There were dozens of other militias in Syria
Speaker 7: that joined him in this takeover. He collected all those
Speaker 7: militia leaders together and said you are now the Syrian army.
Speaker 7: But many of those militia leaders are quasi independent. They
Speaker 7: have their own ideologies. So these people are going to
Speaker 7: go back to their families, they're going to try to
Speaker 7: find a living, they're going to try to escape and
Speaker 7: go back home.
Speaker 6: It is. It's going to be chaos now these women
Speaker 6: and children.
Speaker 7: Syria doesn't really know what to do with them because
Speaker 7: you can't have trials for most of these people because
Speaker 7: there's no evidence against them.
Speaker 6: That evidence has been destroyed. It's already eight years that
Speaker 6: they've been locked up in these camps.
Speaker 7: There isn't a good solution for them.
Speaker 2: Josh, thanks so much for joining us pleasure. Also in
Speaker 2: the news, Pauline Hansen has offered a partial apology for
Speaker 2: suggesting there are no good Muslims. The One Nation leader
Speaker 2: has been widely condemned for the comment made while attacking
Speaker 2: the government over the possible return of the wives and
Speaker 2: children of Islamic state fighters. Hanson now says she doesn't
Speaker 2: believe there are no good Muslims, but added a qualifier, saying,
Speaker 2: in general that is what they want, a world caliphate,
Speaker 2: and I am not going to apologize. I will have
Speaker 2: my say now before it's too late, and Australians are
Speaker 2: in for the biggest rise in health insurance premiums in
Speaker 2: a decade. A four point four one percent increase will
Speaker 2: kick in from April one. The hike, which is above inflation,
Speaker 2: was approved by the Health Minister, who says it reflects
Speaker 2: higher medical and ho hospital costs over the last financial year.
Speaker 2: I'm Nicole Johnston. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.