WEBVTT - #206 Josh Szeps returns for another Uncomfortable Conversation 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:01.880 I I Boris and this is straight talk. 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.160 Josh SEPs Well, back mate, straight mate. Good to see, 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:07.080 so good to be back. I can't believe you're just 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:09.200 complimenting me on how nice my skin looks. It's the 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:10.160 best way to start to today. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:11.000 It's amazing. Thank you. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.080 But I don't even have a I don't have a regime, 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:14.560 I don't have a skin range. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:16.000 I can't believe it. I come. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.080 I actually have to tell everybody that I saw him 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.319 loitering around the area just outside there. He did have 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:23.000 a suit, he had a suit bag. He's going to 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.400 put a suit on for the show. But I said, mate, 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:24.720 done with it. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.840 You look great the way it is, correct the record. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.080 I'm flying in Melbourne right after this and I'm hosting 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:33.320 a panel event for which I need a suit. That's 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.040 not to say that this show isn't important. On I 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.920 felt important, but I'm just feel like your vibe is 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:40.960 more informal. I mean, what are we doing, Marke? 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.239 Informal? That's what I've got to intimidate you. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:44.479 If I was wearing a suit, well, I want to 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.839 talk about that formal vibe and I want to talk 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:47.839 about intimidation too. 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:49.639 Today that's the things. There are the topies you want 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:49.960 to talk to you. 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.400 I'm reaching out to Josh because he's my mate, but 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:56.360 he also knows a lot of stuff and of course 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:57.600 uncomfortable conversations. 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:58.440 That's your podcast. 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.640 And you're written an article recently which I'll park, but 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.200 I want to talk about a little bit later. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:05.039 You've written lots of articles, but. 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:06.800 One I want to talk about in particular is about 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:11.720 your grandmother and just Eve's background. Like we do in 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.839 this show, there was a lot of military activity around 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.119 the world and I got in Major General Mick Ryan 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.320 to talk about what's going on around the world, particularly 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.400 in relation to this was straight after the USA dropped 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.080 the big bomb into Iran, and I thought it was 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:28.360 a relevant discussion. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:30.480 And Mick was sort of praising the. 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.240 Israelis, so if it's back into your wheelhouse, but praising 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.520 the Israelis for their military work, I don't think he's 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:45.880 praising Israel for it's general policies relativety perhaps, yeah. And 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:47.760 then I had a guy called Chris Joy, who I 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.440 considered to be the best economists in the country from 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.800 an Australian economics point of view. And Chris is also 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:59.680 talking about Trump and he was also praising Israel relative 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.960 to Trump relative to world economics. In other words, the 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.720 effect of their what the regimes, both regimes are doing 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.200 in terms of how it leads into his economic policy, 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.240 his own policy relative to what he invests in. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.000 He's not saying did you buy that? 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:20.520 Incidentally, the pro Trump tariff argument quick aside, not not really, 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:21.200 I don't buy it. 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.280 But from his point of view, he manipulates. 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.720 He has a he's built AI and he's got a 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:35.000 team of forty five PhDs who basically build probability events 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:41.320 relative to global bonds based on Trump's demeanor, his facial demeanor, 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.519 his words, and they predicted the ram bomb, It's gonna 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.480 happen on the Saturday or the Sunday, whenever it happened, 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:48.200 so that on the back of that they gone by 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:53.600 and sell. So they build up events global events relative and. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.760 Then they short or along something depending on what yeah, 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:56.840 is going to happen. 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.120 And they'd not always get it right, but generally speaking, 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:00.880 this all about return to the I. 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:02.519 Mean, that's fine if you have a twelve hour time 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:04.360 frame where you want to make money. It's probably not 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:07.200 fine if you're looking at a five to ten to 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.560 fifty year timeframe, whether or not markets have confidence in 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.240 the United States and in the integrity of its currency 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.440 and so on, so correct, it's a trade uncertain Tariff 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.239 wars is probably not wise if you want to remain 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:18.840 the number one. 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:19.840 It's arbitrage. 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.600 It's basically garbitrage running a basis point, so they can 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.440 buy many billions of dollars worth of the US bonds 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:25.640 or training bonds, whatever's in. 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.600 The people made a ton of money after nine to 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.000 eleven as well, the people who knew that it was 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:30.800 going to happen. They were all kinds of crazy inside 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:34.040 you know, trades, the airline stock, you know, from people 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.240 from mysterious people in Saudi Arabia who made a lot 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:37.320 of money. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.240 And whether they're in the know or whether or not 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.880 they created the know, which is what he does. And 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.400 as a result of in those two podcasts, the amount 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.040 of negativity I got was crazy people saying, oh, you're 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.040 supporting Israel and I just thought, and that sort of 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.120 brings you back to this level of intimidation, not that 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.680 I'm feel intimidated, but the attempt to intimidate people via 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.360 social media of in terms of responses and in terms 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.640 of just interaction, engagement. And I wanted to ask you this. 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.640 Your podcast is all about uncomfortable conversations. It's about conversations 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.840 which people don'tant talk about, and there were people listening 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:16.120 to this. 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:20.039 How do you deal with the negativity if at all? 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:21.400 I mean, do you get negativity in? 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:21.800 But you do? 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.520 I get negativity? Mark? Do you know who you're talking to? 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.600 I know you do it, but some people say, you know, 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.040 sometimes when I complain about it, people say, you literally 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.120 named your show Uncomfortable Conversations, and now you're complaining that 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:34.599 people are being left uncomfortable? 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:35.160 Do you complain? 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.080 I don't because I have basically left social media except 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.120 as a promotional tool, so you know, we post clips 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.120 and things there, but I don't really engage with it, 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.560 and I don't. I can usually dismiss the hate as 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.000 being the just the deranged kind of yellings of somebody, 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:54.279 And you know, I sort of think if you're not 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.720 upsetting somebody, then you're not really saying anything interesting. There's 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.960 no old adage about journalism that journalism is something that's 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:05.120 somebody somewhere doesn't want said. Anything else is publicity or marketing, right, 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:06.719 you know, the whole point is that you can to 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.839 upset somebody with this most recent bout, though I have 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.880 felt it it's been one of the two or three 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.560 hardest professional moments of my life, with my being shoved 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:18.880 out of the ABC as one of the other big 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:24.039 recent ones, because I felt like there are really raw 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:29.520 feelings on both sides, and people are hurting, and my 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.600 team is hurting. By my team, I just mean a 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.359 lot of people who are close to me who feel 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.720 like I should be carrying water for their side of things. 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.720 Given that I'm a member of the Jewish community, they 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:45.120 expect that I'm going to have a certain defense of Israel. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.720 And when you try to inject nuance and you try 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.599 to like articulate a vision that is nonpartisan or that 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:58.440 doesn't please either tribe, I have found it more emotionally 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:04.560 trying this time as inexhausting. As inexhausting, yeah, yeah, it doesn't. 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.719 But you don't feel traumatized. You just feel tired, yeah, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:09.719 insulationally tired. 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:10.479 Yes, that's right. 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.520 Yeah, and a little bit traumatized because it is difficult 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.960 being like I mean, my whole pointed with uncomfortable conversations. 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.880 Some people misunderstand that the title of the show and 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.080 think that I'm trying to foster intentionally uncomfortable moments in 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.200 the room or make the guests feel uncomfortable, which is 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.640 not the point. The point is to try to have 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:33.480 amicable and to whatever extent possible, comfortable conversations about issues 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.159 that it's really hard not to get uncomfortable about. So, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:41.400 you know, we pick subjects, whether it's race or indigenous 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.440 rights or welcomes to country, or you know, migration or refugees, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.000 or the Me Too movement, or male and female relations 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.880 in the workplace or LGBTQIA plus issues or transathletes or 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.600 whatever it might be. That if someone were to express 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:58.599 a strident opinion about them at a work function or even. 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.400 Or a family barber or a family barbie. 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.200 Everyone's everyone's bum Hooles would puck her up a little. 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.080 Bit, like everyone would be like, oh, are we going 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:07.920 to go there? You know, and I try to. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.640 Like I just had on the show one of America's 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.880 foremost anti gay parenting activists. 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:20.000 And anti gay parenting activist. So she is against gay parenting. 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.240 That's right, So she's a family value, did you for? 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.000 People don't know, I'm married to a guy and we 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.360 have kids through sarregacy. And it was actually John Anderson, 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.040 the former Deputy PM who's a maid of mine, who 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.840 had her on his show, and he's. 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.600 A podcast. 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.680 You know, he's a Christian, he's a family values guy, 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:46.840 lifelong conservative, and he's intrigued by me because I don't 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:52.360 fit the mold of the crazy woke, you know, super 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.760 kind of captured echo chamber. He lefty that he thinks 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:57.640 that I would be if I was a gay guy 0:07:57.720 --> 0:07:59.000 with a family who. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:07:59.840 Used to work at the ABC. 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:02.720 And so he was like, you should talk to this 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.480 this woman like she's in Australia, she's preaching her you know, 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.440 I guess her gospel of family values and how like 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.760 every child deserves to have its biological mother and biological father. 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.240 So we sat down for two and a half hours, 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:23.080 Mark and had a really amicable, heated, thoughtful, combative conversation 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.760 about where she's coming from, where I'm coming from. That's 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:27.960 my gold standard, right, that's what I want to do. 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:30.840 And when it goes down, And just. 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.880 Before we leave that, I haven't listened that episode, but 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.840 can I can you just tell me how did it go? 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:36.120 Like? 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.959 What's her point? Her point is it is it about child's rights. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:48.640 Yes, yes, So then how could a child have well, well, Mark, 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:50.120 how can a child have rights? 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.400 I mean no, I think under to say that you could. 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.400 It's not an incoherent argument to say that every child 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.760 has a right to a biological mother and a biological father. 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.000 I think it's is that by virtue of some bill 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:04.679 of rights for the United States tour it's. 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.680 By virtue of her well, I think it's by virtue 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.040 of her religiosity. But she would her ethics, her Christian ethics, 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.720 But she would say it's by virtue of the nature 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.960 of the way that you know, humankind is constructed, that 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:17.319 you need a biology. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:17.719 It's a construct. 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.400 Yeah, but she would say it's rooted in our biology. No, 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.880 no child has ever come into existence that didn't have 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.559 a biological mother and a biological father. It's never happened. 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.840 And we're now playing God in ways that are potentially 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.000 damaging to the future of kids, and we're not even 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.199 we're not really looking at the downsides for children. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:36.679 What are the downsides? Did she? 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.160 Well, there aren't. Her problem is there aren't any? 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:39.600 Really? 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.400 I mean, what's her trick? Her magic trick is that 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.480 her chest move. I should say is to say, there's 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.880 a lot of historical literature about how bad it is 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.440 for kids not to have a stable home with a 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.760 nuclear family. So she's talking about, Yeah, she's talking about 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.040 kids from broken home. She's talking about kids with step 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.720 parents who beat them. She's talking about kids who you know, 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:02.760 lost a pair, and she's talking about and all of 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:07.560 that literature trauma, trauma, trauma. She then smuggles into the 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.920 modern day status quo, where, from my perspective, three seconds ago, 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.920 we developed the technological and legal ability for people like 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.600 me to have kids and raise them in a home 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.960 that is free from all of those downsides, no traume, 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:21.880 that is not broken, where there's no trauma, where there 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.240 are loving people surrounding the kids, where the kids have 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.760 all of the advantages. And there are loads of studies 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.120 now that kids in same sex households fair just as 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.319 well or better by any metric that you'd want to 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.560 than kid And it makes sense because they're brought into 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.080 existence by people who really want them. You know that 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.200 it's not a sixteen year old couple of sixteen year 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.040 olds in the backseat of a car at a drive 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.120 in movie theater or something who get knocked up and 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:49.600 then you know, I'm talking about Alabama here, remember, you know, 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:50.240 and then they. 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:50.719 Have to keep the kid. 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.360 You know, obviously kids are going to do well if 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.440 their parents really really love them and spent a lot 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.720 of money and effort bringing them into existence. But she 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:03.480 makes the move of saying, we can't, you know, we 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.360 can't guarantee that the downsides that we normally associate with 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.080 children from broken homes don't also apply to these children. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:11.920 And I mean, it doesn't make a lot of sense, 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.120 but I found it. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.520 What I like about it. 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.520 Is that I think in the past ten fifteen years 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.760 or so, progressives people on broadly my side of politics. 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.600 I think of myself as a pretty left wing guy, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.320 they have taken a very censorious and finger wagging and 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.839 whollyer than theur Schoolmarmi attitude to everything. And they've taken 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.280 a posture of we don't need to explain to you 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.920 why you should be using your putting your pronouns in 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.400 your email signature. We don't need to explain to you 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.240 why trans women are women. We don't need to explain 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.480 to you why you need to sit through a smoking ceremony. 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.120 We don't need to explain to you why you need 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.760 to be welcomed to your own country at an Anzac 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.600 Daidorn service. We don't need to explain to you why, 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.079 as a straight white male, you're not allowed to speak 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.000 up in a meeting where you feel like people are 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.680 being a little bit sexist against men like you. Should 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.080 know that we're on the right side of history and 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.760 you have to get in line right or we're going 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.319 to either hound you on social media, we're going to 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.480 report you to HR, We're going to know exclude you 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.319 from all from polite society. We're going to potentially get 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.080 rid of you from the ABC, which is what it is. Yeah, 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.120 and I think that's just fundamentally misguided. If you look 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.360 at all the civil rights movements that have been successful, 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.120 from civil rights for African Americans in the sixties to 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.520 probably the most successful civil rights movement I think of 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:38.760 all time, which is the gay civil rights movement. Between 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.280 like the eighties and the twenty tens. The strategy was 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.080 not you're a bigot if you don't agree with us. 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:50.480 The strategy was, listen, here's our perspective. We're all on 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.240 the same page. We're here, we're queer, we want the 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:55.840 same stuff you do. We want to be able to 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.480 open a bank account together and have joint access to it, 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:01.280 to be able to visit our loved ones in the 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.400 hospital when they're dying without being treated like a complete stranger. 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.120 We want to be able to take out mortgages together. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.080 We want to not be discriminated against when we rent 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.559 a house, and ultimately we'd even like to be able 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.280 to get married and have that word to endorse our 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.240 relationship the same way you do. You don't have to 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.439 do anything straight people of the world. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:18.800 You don't have to change. Anything. 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.040 We have to do is just live your life and 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.000 extend to us the same universal values that you enjoy 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.680 for yourselves, you know, equality, and that resonated with people. 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.640 People came on board incredibly quickly. I mean when I 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.560 was born, being gay was illegal in a number of 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.120 states in Australia and the idea of gay marriage was 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:38.319 completely ludicrous. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:38.760 Right. 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:41.920 That was a very fast win, and it was a 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.560 durable win because we actually won. We didn't I didn't 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.000 do anything, but my forefathers in the movement, you know 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.440 one hearts and minds. They went on talk shows, they 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.720 went on panels, they wrote op eds. Contrast that to 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.800 the strategy of what you might call the woke left 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.680 of the past five or ten years, where there's no 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.280 ex a nation, there's no appeal to fundamental underlying values 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:05.040 that we all share. 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:07.640 It's just like do. 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.080 As I say, do as I say, And understandably now 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.280 in Trump and the far right in Europe and Elon 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.319 Musk and like you know, a lot of discontent in 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.680 Australia and elsewhere as well. There's a backlash people say, 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:21.760 I don't have to do what you say? 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.080 Or are they saying or are they saying, do as 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.360 I say? But what I say is the opposite? 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.160 What do you mean, well, Trump, Musk, the right that's 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.600 called it the right is are they saying Are they 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:35.640 saying I don't need. 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.160 To do what you told me to do it? 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:41.560 Is it a backlash from as a movement or is 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:47.400 it this new movement or the opposite side. Are they saying, no, no, no, 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.960 we don't believe in gay rights. We don't believe in 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.240 two men be married or too men be married. We 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.960 don't believe in your rights relative for you having children 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.160 on your own and you should do what I say. 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.880 Well, yes, they are, yes, riches, they are equally censorious 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.240 and you know, but this is what you get Mark. 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:10.280 When you have overreach, right, you provoke a backlash, and 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.840 when when the whole game is shut the hell up, 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.520 because you're not just mistaken, but winnable over if I 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:20.760 speak to you like a grown up and you know, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.120 provide a rational space for us to have a common discussion, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.200 but you'll be on the pale. You're an enemy of civilization, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.800 You're on the wrong side of history. I have to 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.680 crush you, and I have to defeat you. Then of 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.040 course that provokes the other side. So you see, it's understandable, Josh, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.200 I'm saying it's understandable that you would have a ratcheting 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.600 up of intensity and a kind of a cultural war 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.920 of attrition where both sides think that it's a I 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.720 think that it's a winner take all scenario. So you've 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.800 got Donald Trump, who will basically do anything I think 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.480 to crush his opponents. But he doesn't come out of 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.760 a vacuum. He comes out of a cultural moment in 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.560 the United States where a large base of middle Americans, 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.320 of small c conservative middle Americans felt like they being 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.480 talked down to and well the work and shout upon 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.000 yeah by the Hillary Clinton's of the world for too long. Right, 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.000 So anyway, this is all a long way of saying 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:10.960 that what I'm doing when I invite someone like this 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.400 anti family you know, this pro family values, anti gay 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:18.000 parenting activist on the show, is trying to say these 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.120 topics aren't out of bounds. Nothing's out of bounds for 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.400 rational conversation. If we're going to survive the twenty first century, 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.040 then we're only going to do so by sitting down 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.160 in forums like this and exchanging ideas with people we 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.800 disagree with as well as those who we agree with, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.400 and too much of our conversations at the moment, coming 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.040 back to what you were saying about feeling sort of 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:43.160 besieged and like attacked right on social media. Are we 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:47.040 sit in our silos, in our echo chambers, you know, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:52.320 inside our kind of thought groups, which algorithms reinforce. They 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.960 show us things that are eger like, yeah, we're going 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.000 to like even if we hate it, we still like it, 0:16:58.000 --> 0:16:58.800 we still engage with it. 0:16:58.880 --> 0:16:58.960 Right. 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.400 It's things that in other words, either reinforce what we 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.399 already believe or they demonize things that we don't believe. 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.840 But as long as we stay on that video of 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.959 the Garsen baby dying and share it or comment on it. 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.920 Then that's a win for Silicon Valley. And as a result, 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.040 our worldviews get narrower and narrower, and it starts to 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:20.880 feel like it would be beyond the pale to talk 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.480 to somebody in good faith who disagrees with us because 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.080 they're an enemy. How could you defend the Garsen baby dying, 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:30.720 Like how could you defend a child being ripped away 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.320 from its mother or father in the case of gay marriage? 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.879 How could you defend you betraying our first nations, brothers 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.359 and sisters by questioning an acknowledgment of country. And so 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:45.479 people get more and more like enclosed in these thought chambers. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.359 I see my job as just expanding that by ten percent, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.159 if not punching a hole in the wall altogether, so 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.840 that we are all on the same page at least 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:56.920 when we know the sort of the terrain of conversation 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:58.720 that we can have with one another to try to 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.560 figure out what's right and wrong and survive as a civilization. 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:03.440 So basically, I'm superman, is what I'm saying. 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.080 Man, Well, I'm actually I know you're taking the pistative sort, 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.600 but to be frank with you, people should listen to 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.920 your podcast because unfortunately, or fortunately in your case, fortunately, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.040 the process of navigating your way through what you just 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.960 explained so well requires a favoit of intellect and probably 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:26.960 more importantly, an understanding of the topic at an intellectual level, 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.240 as opposed to the way most of us look at 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:30.560 these things as we're just looking at as you say, 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.440 we're looking at Instagram. We're just getting fedbare social media, 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.719 getting fed what we normally it knows we like, and 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.919 we're not. Actually, we're too busy, run around business and 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:38.400 we're not really intellectualizing these things. 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:38.920 That's your job. 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.359 I mean, maybe, look that is that's the reason why 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.120 I'm saying that I am clever. But I actually think 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.679 there's a muscle that everybody can flex. Everybody listening to 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.719 this can flex, regardless of how busy they are and 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.080 regardless of how uninformed they might be about a particular issue. 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:58.719 And that muscle is I guess, intellectual empathy a habit, 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.480 forming a habit of giving people a benefit of the 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.119 doubt and assuming the strongest version of their own case 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:09.880 rather than immediately assuming the worst. So if you see 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.840 someone write an article like the one that I did, 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.040