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Speaker 1: I I Boris and this is straight talk.

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Speaker 2: Josh SEPs Well, back mate, straight mate. Good to see,

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Speaker 2: so good to be back. I can't believe you're just

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Speaker 2: complimenting me on how nice my skin looks. It's the

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Speaker 2: best way to start to today.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: But I don't even have a I don't have a regime,

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Speaker 2: I don't have a skin range.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it. I come.

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Speaker 3: I actually have to tell everybody that I saw him

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Speaker 3: loitering around the area just outside there. He did have

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Speaker 3: a suit, he had a suit bag. He's going to

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Speaker 3: put a suit on for the show. But I said, mate,

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Speaker 3: done with it.

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Speaker 1: You look great the way it is, correct the record.

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Speaker 2: I'm flying in Melbourne right after this and I'm hosting

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Speaker 2: a panel event for which I need a suit. That's

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Speaker 2: not to say that this show isn't important. On I

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Speaker 2: felt important, but I'm just feel like your vibe is

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Speaker 2: more informal. I mean, what are we doing, Marke?

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Speaker 1: Informal? That's what I've got to intimidate you.

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Speaker 3: If I was wearing a suit, well, I want to

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Speaker 3: talk about that formal vibe and I want to talk

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Speaker 3: about intimidation too.

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Speaker 1: Today that's the things. There are the topies you want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you.

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Speaker 3: I'm reaching out to Josh because he's my mate, but

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Speaker 3: he also knows a lot of stuff and of course

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Speaker 3: uncomfortable conversations.

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Speaker 1: That's your podcast.

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Speaker 3: And you're written an article recently which I'll park, but

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about a little bit later.

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Speaker 1: You've written lots of articles, but.

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Speaker 3: One I want to talk about in particular is about

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Speaker 3: your grandmother and just Eve's background. Like we do in

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Speaker 3: this show, there was a lot of military activity around

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Speaker 3: the world and I got in Major General Mick Ryan

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Speaker 3: to talk about what's going on around the world, particularly

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Speaker 3: in relation to this was straight after the USA dropped

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Speaker 3: the big bomb into Iran, and I thought it was

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Speaker 3: a relevant discussion.

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Speaker 1: And Mick was sort of praising the.

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Speaker 3: Israelis, so if it's back into your wheelhouse, but praising

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Speaker 3: the Israelis for their military work, I don't think he's

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Speaker 3: praising Israel for it's general policies relativety perhaps, yeah. And

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Speaker 3: then I had a guy called Chris Joy, who I

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Speaker 3: considered to be the best economists in the country from

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Speaker 3: an Australian economics point of view. And Chris is also

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Speaker 3: talking about Trump and he was also praising Israel relative

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Speaker 3: to Trump relative to world economics. In other words, the

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Speaker 3: effect of their what the regimes, both regimes are doing

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Speaker 3: in terms of how it leads into his economic policy,

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Speaker 3: his own policy relative to what he invests in.

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Speaker 1: He's not saying did you buy that?

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Speaker 2: Incidentally, the pro Trump tariff argument quick aside, not not really,

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Speaker 2: I don't buy it.

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Speaker 1: But from his point of view, he manipulates.

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Speaker 3: He has a he's built AI and he's got a

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Speaker 3: team of forty five PhDs who basically build probability events

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Speaker 3: relative to global bonds based on Trump's demeanor, his facial demeanor,

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Speaker 3: his words, and they predicted the ram bomb, It's gonna

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Speaker 3: happen on the Saturday or the Sunday, whenever it happened,

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Speaker 3: so that on the back of that they gone by

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Speaker 3: and sell. So they build up events global events relative and.

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Speaker 2: Then they short or along something depending on what yeah,

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Speaker 2: is going to happen.

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Speaker 3: And they'd not always get it right, but generally speaking,

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Speaker 3: this all about return to the I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, that's fine if you have a twelve hour time

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Speaker 2: frame where you want to make money. It's probably not

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Speaker 2: fine if you're looking at a five to ten to

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Speaker 2: fifty year timeframe, whether or not markets have confidence in

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Speaker 2: the United States and in the integrity of its currency

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Speaker 2: and so on, so correct, it's a trade uncertain Tariff

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Speaker 2: wars is probably not wise if you want to remain

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Speaker 2: the number one.

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Speaker 1: It's arbitrage.

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Speaker 3: It's basically garbitrage running a basis point, so they can

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Speaker 3: buy many billions of dollars worth of the US bonds

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Speaker 3: or training bonds, whatever's in.

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Speaker 2: The people made a ton of money after nine to

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Speaker 2: eleven as well, the people who knew that it was

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Speaker 2: going to happen. They were all kinds of crazy inside

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Speaker 2: you know, trades, the airline stock, you know, from people

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Speaker 2: from mysterious people in Saudi Arabia who made a lot

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Speaker 2: of money.

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Speaker 3: And whether they're in the know or whether or not

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Speaker 3: they created the know, which is what he does. And

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Speaker 3: as a result of in those two podcasts, the amount

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Speaker 3: of negativity I got was crazy people saying, oh, you're

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Speaker 3: supporting Israel and I just thought, and that sort of

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Speaker 3: brings you back to this level of intimidation, not that

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Speaker 3: I'm feel intimidated, but the attempt to intimidate people via

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Speaker 3: social media of in terms of responses and in terms

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Speaker 3: of just interaction, engagement. And I wanted to ask you this.

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Speaker 3: Your podcast is all about uncomfortable conversations. It's about conversations

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Speaker 3: which people don'tant talk about, and there were people listening

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Speaker 3: to this.

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Speaker 1: How do you deal with the negativity if at all?

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you get negativity in?

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Speaker 3: But you do?

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Speaker 1: I get negativity? Mark? Do you know who you're talking to?

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Speaker 2: I know you do it, but some people say, you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes when I complain about it, people say, you literally

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Speaker 2: named your show Uncomfortable Conversations, and now you're complaining that

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Speaker 2: people are being left uncomfortable?

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Speaker 1: Do you complain?

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Speaker 2: I don't because I have basically left social media except

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Speaker 2: as a promotional tool, so you know, we post clips

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Speaker 2: and things there, but I don't really engage with it,

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Speaker 2: and I don't. I can usually dismiss the hate as

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Speaker 2: being the just the deranged kind of yellings of somebody,

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Speaker 2: And you know, I sort of think if you're not

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Speaker 2: upsetting somebody, then you're not really saying anything interesting. There's

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Speaker 2: no old adage about journalism that journalism is something that's

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Speaker 2: somebody somewhere doesn't want said. Anything else is publicity or marketing, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, the whole point is that you can to

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Speaker 2: upset somebody with this most recent bout, though I have

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Speaker 2: felt it it's been one of the two or three

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Speaker 2: hardest professional moments of my life, with my being shoved

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Speaker 2: out of the ABC as one of the other big

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Speaker 2: recent ones, because I felt like there are really raw

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Speaker 2: feelings on both sides, and people are hurting, and my

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Speaker 2: team is hurting. By my team, I just mean a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who are close to me who feel

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Speaker 2: like I should be carrying water for their side of things.

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Speaker 2: Given that I'm a member of the Jewish community, they

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Speaker 2: expect that I'm going to have a certain defense of Israel.

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Speaker 2: And when you try to inject nuance and you try

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Speaker 2: to like articulate a vision that is nonpartisan or that

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Speaker 2: doesn't please either tribe, I have found it more emotionally

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Speaker 2: trying this time as inexhausting. As inexhausting, yeah, yeah, it doesn't.

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Speaker 3: But you don't feel traumatized. You just feel tired, yeah,

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Speaker 3: insulationally tired.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and a little bit traumatized because it is difficult

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Speaker 2: being like I mean, my whole pointed with uncomfortable conversations.

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Speaker 2: Some people misunderstand that the title of the show and

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Speaker 2: think that I'm trying to foster intentionally uncomfortable moments in

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Speaker 2: the room or make the guests feel uncomfortable, which is

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Speaker 2: not the point. The point is to try to have

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Speaker 2: amicable and to whatever extent possible, comfortable conversations about issues

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Speaker 2: that it's really hard not to get uncomfortable about. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, we pick subjects, whether it's race or indigenous

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Speaker 2: rights or welcomes to country, or you know, migration or refugees,

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Speaker 2: or the Me Too movement, or male and female relations

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Speaker 2: in the workplace or LGBTQIA plus issues or transathletes or

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be. That if someone were to express

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Speaker 2: a strident opinion about them at a work function or even.

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Speaker 1: Or a family barber or a family barbie.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's everyone's bum Hooles would puck her up a little.

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Speaker 1: Bit, like everyone would be like, oh, are we going

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Speaker 1: to go there? You know, and I try to.

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Speaker 2: Like I just had on the show one of America's

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Speaker 2: foremost anti gay parenting activists.

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Speaker 3: And anti gay parenting activist. So she is against gay parenting.

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Speaker 2: That's right, So she's a family value, did you for?

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Speaker 2: People don't know, I'm married to a guy and we

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Speaker 2: have kids through sarregacy. And it was actually John Anderson,

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Speaker 2: the former Deputy PM who's a maid of mine, who

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Speaker 2: had her on his show, and he's.

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Speaker 1: A podcast.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's a Christian, he's a family values guy,

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Speaker 2: lifelong conservative, and he's intrigued by me because I don't

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Speaker 2: fit the mold of the crazy woke, you know, super

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Speaker 2: kind of captured echo chamber. He lefty that he thinks

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Speaker 2: that I would be if I was a gay guy

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Speaker 2: with a family who.

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Speaker 1: Used to work at the ABC.

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Speaker 2: And so he was like, you should talk to this

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Speaker 2: this woman like she's in Australia, she's preaching her you know,

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Speaker 2: I guess her gospel of family values and how like

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Speaker 2: every child deserves to have its biological mother and biological father.

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Speaker 2: So we sat down for two and a half hours,

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Speaker 2: Mark and had a really amicable, heated, thoughtful, combative conversation

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Speaker 2: about where she's coming from, where I'm coming from. That's

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Speaker 2: my gold standard, right, that's what I want to do.

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Speaker 2: And when it goes down, And just.

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Speaker 3: Before we leave that, I haven't listened that episode, but

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Speaker 3: can I can you just tell me how did it go?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: What's her point? Her point is it is it about child's rights.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So then how could a child have well, well, Mark,

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Speaker 3: how can a child have rights?

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Speaker 2: I mean no, I think under to say that you could.

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Speaker 2: It's not an incoherent argument to say that every child

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Speaker 2: has a right to a biological mother and a biological father.

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Speaker 3: I think it's is that by virtue of some bill

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Speaker 3: of rights for the United States tour it's.

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Speaker 2: By virtue of her well, I think it's by virtue

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Speaker 2: of her religiosity. But she would her ethics, her Christian ethics,

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Speaker 2: But she would say it's by virtue of the nature

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Speaker 2: of the way that you know, humankind is constructed, that

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Speaker 2: you need a biology.

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Speaker 1: It's a construct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but she would say it's rooted in our biology. No,

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Speaker 2: no child has ever come into existence that didn't have

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Speaker 2: a biological mother and a biological father. It's never happened.

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Speaker 2: And we're now playing God in ways that are potentially

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Speaker 2: damaging to the future of kids, and we're not even

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Speaker 2: we're not really looking at the downsides for children.

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Speaker 1: What are the downsides? Did she?

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Speaker 2: Well, there aren't. Her problem is there aren't any?

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Speaker 1: Really?

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Speaker 2: I mean, what's her trick? Her magic trick is that

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Speaker 2: her chest move. I should say is to say, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of historical literature about how bad it is

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Speaker 2: for kids not to have a stable home with a

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Speaker 2: nuclear family. So she's talking about, Yeah, she's talking about

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Speaker 2: kids from broken home. She's talking about kids with step

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Speaker 2: parents who beat them. She's talking about kids who you know,

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Speaker 2: lost a pair, and she's talking about and all of

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Speaker 2: that literature trauma, trauma, trauma. She then smuggles into the

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Speaker 2: modern day status quo, where, from my perspective, three seconds ago,

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Speaker 2: we developed the technological and legal ability for people like

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Speaker 2: me to have kids and raise them in a home

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Speaker 2: that is free from all of those downsides, no traume,

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Speaker 2: that is not broken, where there's no trauma, where there

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Speaker 2: are loving people surrounding the kids, where the kids have

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Speaker 2: all of the advantages. And there are loads of studies

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Speaker 2: now that kids in same sex households fair just as

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Speaker 2: well or better by any metric that you'd want to

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Speaker 2: than kid And it makes sense because they're brought into

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Speaker 2: existence by people who really want them. You know that

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Speaker 2: it's not a sixteen year old couple of sixteen year

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Speaker 2: olds in the backseat of a car at a drive

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Speaker 2: in movie theater or something who get knocked up and

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Speaker 2: then you know, I'm talking about Alabama here, remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then they.

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Speaker 1: Have to keep the kid.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously kids are going to do well if

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Speaker 2: their parents really really love them and spent a lot

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Speaker 2: of money and effort bringing them into existence. But she

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Speaker 2: makes the move of saying, we can't, you know, we

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Speaker 2: can't guarantee that the downsides that we normally associate with

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Speaker 2: children from broken homes don't also apply to these children.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, it doesn't make a lot of sense,

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Speaker 2: but I found it.

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Speaker 1: What I like about it.

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Speaker 2: Is that I think in the past ten fifteen years

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Speaker 2: or so, progressives people on broadly my side of politics.

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Speaker 2: I think of myself as a pretty left wing guy,

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Speaker 2: they have taken a very censorious and finger wagging and

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Speaker 2: whollyer than theur Schoolmarmi attitude to everything. And they've taken

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Speaker 2: a posture of we don't need to explain to you

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Speaker 2: why you should be using your putting your pronouns in

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Speaker 2: your email signature. We don't need to explain to you

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Speaker 2: why trans women are women. We don't need to explain

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Speaker 2: to you why you need to sit through a smoking ceremony.

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Speaker 2: We don't need to explain to you why you need

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Speaker 2: to be welcomed to your own country at an Anzac

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Speaker 2: Daidorn service. We don't need to explain to you why,

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Speaker 2: as a straight white male, you're not allowed to speak

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Speaker 2: up in a meeting where you feel like people are

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Speaker 2: being a little bit sexist against men like you. Should

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Speaker 2: know that we're on the right side of history and

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Speaker 2: you have to get in line right or we're going

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Speaker 2: to either hound you on social media, we're going to

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Speaker 2: report you to HR, We're going to know exclude you

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Speaker 2: from all from polite society. We're going to potentially get

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Speaker 2: rid of you from the ABC, which is what it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's just fundamentally misguided. If you look

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Speaker 2: at all the civil rights movements that have been successful,

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Speaker 2: from civil rights for African Americans in the sixties to

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Speaker 2: probably the most successful civil rights movement I think of

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Speaker 2: all time, which is the gay civil rights movement. Between

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Speaker 2: like the eighties and the twenty tens. The strategy was

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Speaker 2: not you're a bigot if you don't agree with us.

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Speaker 2: The strategy was, listen, here's our perspective. We're all on

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Speaker 2: the same page. We're here, we're queer, we want the

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Speaker 2: same stuff you do. We want to be able to

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Speaker 2: open a bank account together and have joint access to it,

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Speaker 2: to be able to visit our loved ones in the

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Speaker 2: hospital when they're dying without being treated like a complete stranger.

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Speaker 2: We want to be able to take out mortgages together.

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Speaker 2: We want to not be discriminated against when we rent

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Speaker 2: a house, and ultimately we'd even like to be able

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Speaker 2: to get married and have that word to endorse our

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Speaker 2: relationship the same way you do. You don't have to

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Speaker 2: do anything straight people of the world.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to change. Anything.

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Speaker 2: We have to do is just live your life and

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Speaker 2: extend to us the same universal values that you enjoy

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Speaker 2: for yourselves, you know, equality, and that resonated with people.

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Speaker 2: People came on board incredibly quickly. I mean when I

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Speaker 2: was born, being gay was illegal in a number of

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Speaker 2: states in Australia and the idea of gay marriage was

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Speaker 2: completely ludicrous.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: That was a very fast win, and it was a

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Speaker 2: durable win because we actually won. We didn't I didn't

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Speaker 2: do anything, but my forefathers in the movement, you know

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Speaker 2: one hearts and minds. They went on talk shows, they

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Speaker 2: went on panels, they wrote op eds. Contrast that to

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Speaker 2: the strategy of what you might call the woke left

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Speaker 2: of the past five or ten years, where there's no

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Speaker 2: ex a nation, there's no appeal to fundamental underlying values

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Speaker 2: that we all share.

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Speaker 1: It's just like do.

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Speaker 2: As I say, do as I say, And understandably now

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Speaker 2: in Trump and the far right in Europe and Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk and like you know, a lot of discontent in

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Speaker 2: Australia and elsewhere as well. There's a backlash people say,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to do what you say?

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Speaker 1: Or are they saying or are they saying, do as

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Speaker 1: I say? But what I say is the opposite?

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Speaker 3: What do you mean, well, Trump, Musk, the right that's

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Speaker 3: called it the right is are they saying Are they

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Speaker 3: saying I don't need.

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Speaker 1: To do what you told me to do it?

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Speaker 3: Is it a backlash from as a movement or is

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Speaker 3: it this new movement or the opposite side. Are they saying, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: we don't believe in gay rights. We don't believe in

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Speaker 3: two men be married or too men be married. We

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Speaker 3: don't believe in your rights relative for you having children

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Speaker 3: on your own and you should do what I say.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, they are, yes, riches, they are equally censorious

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Speaker 2: and you know, but this is what you get Mark.

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Speaker 2: When you have overreach, right, you provoke a backlash, and

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Speaker 2: when when the whole game is shut the hell up,

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Speaker 2: because you're not just mistaken, but winnable over if I

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Speaker 2: speak to you like a grown up and you know,

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Speaker 2: provide a rational space for us to have a common discussion,

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Speaker 2: but you'll be on the pale. You're an enemy of civilization,

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Speaker 2: You're on the wrong side of history. I have to

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Speaker 2: crush you, and I have to defeat you. Then of

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Speaker 2: course that provokes the other side. So you see, it's understandable, Josh,

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Speaker 2: I'm saying it's understandable that you would have a ratcheting

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Speaker 2: up of intensity and a kind of a cultural war

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Speaker 2: of attrition where both sides think that it's a I

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Speaker 2: think that it's a winner take all scenario. So you've

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Speaker 2: got Donald Trump, who will basically do anything I think

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Speaker 2: to crush his opponents. But he doesn't come out of

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Speaker 2: a vacuum. He comes out of a cultural moment in

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Speaker 2: the United States where a large base of middle Americans,

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Speaker 2: of small c conservative middle Americans felt like they being

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Speaker 2: talked down to and well the work and shout upon

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Speaker 2: yeah by the Hillary Clinton's of the world for too long. Right,

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Speaker 2: So anyway, this is all a long way of saying

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Speaker 2: that what I'm doing when I invite someone like this

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Speaker 2: anti family you know, this pro family values, anti gay

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Speaker 2: parenting activist on the show, is trying to say these

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Speaker 2: topics aren't out of bounds. Nothing's out of bounds for

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Speaker 2: rational conversation. If we're going to survive the twenty first century,

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Speaker 2: then we're only going to do so by sitting down

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Speaker 2: in forums like this and exchanging ideas with people we

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Speaker 2: disagree with as well as those who we agree with,

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Speaker 2: and too much of our conversations at the moment, coming

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Speaker 2: back to what you were saying about feeling sort of

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Speaker 2: besieged and like attacked right on social media. Are we

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Speaker 2: sit in our silos, in our echo chambers, you know,

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Speaker 2: inside our kind of thought groups, which algorithms reinforce. They

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Speaker 2: show us things that are eger like, yeah, we're going

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Speaker 2: to like even if we hate it, we still like it,

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Speaker 2: we still engage with it.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's things that in other words, either reinforce what we

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Speaker 2: already believe or they demonize things that we don't believe.

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Speaker 2: But as long as we stay on that video of

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Speaker 2: the Garsen baby dying and share it or comment on it.

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Speaker 2: Then that's a win for Silicon Valley. And as a result,

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Speaker 2: our worldviews get narrower and narrower, and it starts to

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Speaker 2: feel like it would be beyond the pale to talk

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Speaker 2: to somebody in good faith who disagrees with us because

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Speaker 2: they're an enemy. How could you defend the Garsen baby dying,

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Speaker 2: Like how could you defend a child being ripped away

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Speaker 2: from its mother or father in the case of gay marriage?

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Speaker 2: How could you defend you betraying our first nations, brothers

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Speaker 2: and sisters by questioning an acknowledgment of country. And so

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Speaker 2: people get more and more like enclosed in these thought chambers.

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Speaker 2: I see my job as just expanding that by ten percent,

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Speaker 2: if not punching a hole in the wall altogether, so

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Speaker 2: that we are all on the same page at least

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Speaker 2: when we know the sort of the terrain of conversation

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Speaker 2: that we can have with one another to try to

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Speaker 2: figure out what's right and wrong and survive as a civilization.

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Speaker 2: So basically, I'm superman, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: Man, Well, I'm actually I know you're taking the pistative sort,

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Speaker 3: but to be frank with you, people should listen to

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Speaker 3: your podcast because unfortunately, or fortunately in your case, fortunately,

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Speaker 3: the process of navigating your way through what you just

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Speaker 3: explained so well requires a favoit of intellect and probably

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Speaker 3: more importantly, an understanding of the topic at an intellectual level,

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Speaker 3: as opposed to the way most of us look at

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Speaker 3: these things as we're just looking at as you say,

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Speaker 3: we're looking at Instagram. We're just getting fedbare social media,

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Speaker 3: getting fed what we normally it knows we like, and

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Speaker 3: we're not. Actually, we're too busy, run around business and

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Speaker 3: we're not really intellectualizing these things.

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Speaker 1: That's your job.

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Speaker 2: I mean, maybe, look that is that's the reason why

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Speaker 2: I'm saying that I am clever. But I actually think

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Speaker 2: there's a muscle that everybody can flex. Everybody listening to

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Speaker 2: this can flex, regardless of how busy they are and

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Speaker 2: regardless of how uninformed they might be about a particular issue.

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Speaker 2: And that muscle is I guess, intellectual empathy a habit,

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Speaker 2: forming a habit of giving people a benefit of the

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Speaker 2: doubt and assuming the strongest version of their own case

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Speaker 2: rather than immediately assuming the worst. So if you see

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Speaker 2: someone write an article like the one that I did,

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Speaker 2: or you know, post a clip like the ones that

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Speaker 2: I might post on social media about something that I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: We have been trained by the algorithm to take it

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Speaker 2: in the worst possible faith and to get as to

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Speaker 2: either agree as wholeheartedly as possible, which is just as

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Speaker 2: bad as disagreeing as whole heartedly as possible. Like, I've

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Speaker 2: got some feedback in the past month from people who

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Speaker 2: think that I'm on their side, which is just as

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Speaker 2: upsetting to me as the feedback from people who hate me,

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Speaker 2: because I'm like, I'm just because you're misunderstanding, I'm not

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Speaker 2: on your bloody team. Don't think I've suddenly jumped ship

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Speaker 2: and I'm on your team. U g hardiest humas supporting

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Speaker 2: you know, you know, clueless fool. I'm trying to not

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Speaker 2: have a team. I'm trying to encourage people to think

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Speaker 2: about things with the maximum amount of generosity towards ideas

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Speaker 2: don't come naturally.

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Speaker 1: Do we need to have a team? No? Is that

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Speaker 1: the point? That's the point.

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Speaker 3: So is tribalism emerging into our communit out of society.

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Speaker 1: In other words, pick a team?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I think it's natural. I think it's

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Speaker 2: perfectly natural. I think we've always had it right. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, go back to prehistory and we all were tribes,

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Speaker 2: and so we have a cent and when, especially when

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Speaker 2: things start feeling uncertain, you hunker into your tribe and

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Speaker 2: you circle the wagons and you try to protect your kin.

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Speaker 2: And that's a perfectly natural response, not just for Homo sapiens,

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Speaker 2: but for all mammals really, right, all clan animals. I

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Speaker 2: think we did a good job of inventing the Enlightenment

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Speaker 2: and liberal again, we like I had.

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Speaker 1: A partner it.

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Speaker 2: People invented the Enlightenment and liberal democracy and institutions like

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Speaker 2: for everything from the US Constitution to the Declaration for

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Speaker 2: Human Rights and all kinds of things, so that for

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Speaker 2: the second half of the twentieth century we understood that

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Speaker 2: the main objective was to turn the volume down on tribes.

437
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 2: You listen to Martin Luther King speak, you listen to

438
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,399
Speaker 2: Gandhi speak, you listen to Nelson Mandela speak.

439
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 1: I mean Nelson Mandela after he.

440
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 2: Was axed, is imprisoned, and then he got elected. Right,

441
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 2: all of the white supremacist racists who had been in

442
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 2: the previous government said, fine, don'torry, We're not going to

443
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 2: you will let you do your thing. He said, no, no, no,

444
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 2: stay in cabinet.

445
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: I want you with me.

446
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 2: I want you guys who locked me up to be

447
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: working with me, because the only way the country recovers

448
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,199
Speaker 2: is by us working together.

449
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 3: And famously upset his own crowd by wearing a spring

450
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 3: Box jewsey. He's a spring Box game where there was

451
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 3: no not one person of color.

452
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: Yes, right, exactly, and gurageous. People say it's greageous. Actually,

453
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: i'd see really.

454
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 2: Clever, absolutely so smart, smart and brave both. And you know,

455
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: you just listened to Obama's speeches from you know, when

456
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: he was emerging onto the scene. I believe it 'm

457
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 2: not it's twenty years ago now.

458
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:56,479
Speaker 1: You know.

459
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: He came onto the scene twenty one years ago when

460
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 2: he first gave us speech at the Democratic National Convention,

461
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: which brought his name to people's attention in political circles

462
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 2: in the States, and it was all about how there

463
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 2: is no red America and blue America. There is no

464
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 2: black America and white America. There are only the United

465
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: States of America. I get to chill up my spine

466
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: even just reciting that. It's so beautiful and in the

467
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 2: intervening twenty years. I think the left has just gone

468
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 2: a bit crazy, and that's caused the right to go

469
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: a bit crazy in losing sight of universalism, of this

470
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: idea that the tribe actually is a bit of a

471
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 2: dead end. Don't think about tribes. Don't judge people on

472
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 2: the basis of their skin, or their genitals, or their

473
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: sexual persuasion. Try as hard as you can to judge

474
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 2: people on the content of their character. Try to have

475
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: everyone get along, try to reduce inequality, try to reduce prejudice.

476
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: But that almost on the left now comes across as

477
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 2: a passe right wing excuse for inaction, like, oh, do

478
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: you think that you know, all of a sudden, it's

479
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 2: just fine for us not to pay any attention to

480
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 2: like we need to have serious conversations about race and

481
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: about sex and like my identity. And we have to

482
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 2: change the rainbow flag so it's not a rainbow flag,

483
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: but it now represents like First Nations, you know, transgender, indigenous.

484
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: Like the whole point of a bloody rainbow is that

485
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 2: it's a rainbow. It's got everything in it, you know,

486
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: you don't need to also add in a little black

487
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 2: thing to include likes there's an obsession with tribalism and

488
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: identity that I think is occluding our vision and is

489
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 2: just is distracting exactly. It's an ancient instinct, and I

490
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: think social media and the instability of the globe is triggering,

491
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 2: is flaring up that tribal instinct. Yes, out of fear

492
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 2: and out of I think a delusional interpretation of the

493
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: way the world is. Through social media, you know, people

494
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 2: are presented with an extremified version of things because the

495
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: algorithm knows that that's what they're going to spend more

496
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: time on. I mean, you know, most people who are

497
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: certain one way or another about their position on big, complicated,

498
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 2: controversial issues that we all deep down know there isn't

499
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: an easy answer to. I'm talking about all of these subjects,

500
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 2: right Gaza, international relations, you know, whether to bomb Iran,

501
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 2: race relations, same sex marriage, whatever it might be.

502
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: Religion.

503
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: Anyone who has a strident opinion about those things was

504
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: either raised in a you know, a blinkered, blinded, constrained

505
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: environment and has never been able to escape that prejudice,

506
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 2: as is often the case with highly religious people, or

507
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: they're consuming a view of the world from social media

508
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 2: that is just sending them down a rabbit hole and

509
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: is constantly reinforcing that worldview and has deranged them. I mean,

510
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: you look at the social media feed of someone who

511
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 2: thinks that Israel is blameless, and you look at the

512
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: social media fair feed of someone who thinks that Israel

513
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: is committed to committing a genocide against the Palestinians, and

514
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: you're looking at two different worlds.

515
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. Tribes Israel.

516
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 3: You're Jewish, Yeah, you're part of I mean you would

517
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 3: you consider yourself as part of the Jewish community?

518
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you feel strongly.

519
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 3: About perhaps the Holocaust. Yep, you've written an article recently

520
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: about your grandmother. Yeah.

521
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: What was the article titled?

522
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: Well, the part of the problem is that the journalist

523
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: doesn't write the title. The sub editor writes the title.

524
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: And people should know that too, and people should be

525
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: aware of that, because I think that's a large part

526
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 2: of the misunderstanding about what I was trying to say.

527
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: But it was called just in case you want to

528
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: look it up.

529
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: Just go I actually don't remember, but it was just

530
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: if you google Zepp's SVDPS Israel, I'll tell him. It

531
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: was something like my grandmother survived the Holocaust and now.

532
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to tell me exactly what it is.

533
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: My grandmother fled the Holocaust. Now it's time for Jews

534
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 3: to abandon Israel. Now that's that's written by Josh, but

535
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: he didn't put up the title. And that title is

536
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: usually the case is the Cidney Morning held and the age.

537
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: And the age. So the Fairfax Group published it.

538
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: Usually it's the someone internally who writes there better writes

539
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 3: that it.

540
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: Usually this paper writes the headline.

541
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: It's usually a drag and they want to make it

542
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: they're dragging the audience. Yeah, exact, and that's fine and

543
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: it worked and it worked. So just to give people

544
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 2: some background, my dad was born in a refugee camp

545
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty three in Switzerland to Jewish parents who'd

546
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: fled Poland just before Hitler invaded Poland. There all the

547
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: rest of his family and his parents family were wiped

548
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 2: out in concentration camps, and he was raised by foster

549
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 2: staunched Lutheran foster family in the Swiss Alps for the

550
00:26:58,400 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 2: first two years of the war, and then when he

551
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: was eight, after living in Paris with his mum and

552
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: her new boyfriend, they came out to Australia on a

553
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: boat as refugees. So that's the like sort of backstory.

554
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: To my history.

555
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not a religious person, I don't, you know,

556
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 2: I go to synagogue and I don't feel I'm not

557
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: raising my kids Jewish. But you know, you're part of

558
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: a clan, You're part of a tribe. I relate to

559
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: my Jewishness a bit like I will relate to my Gainers.

560
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: I sort of think it's just the thing that's in

561
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: the back that's a part of the backdrop tapestry of

562
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: who I am. And I'm sort of proud of it,

563
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: and I'm also sort of annoyed by it, you know,

564
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: in differing measure and.

565
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: But you're already be defined by it.

566
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: I don't want to be defined by it exactly. And

567
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: I'm certainly not going to carry water or Jewish that's right,

568
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 2: that's right. I'll be defined by the things I do, yep, right, well,

569
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: as you said earlier on, by your character exactly, yes,

570
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 2: by my choices. I'm not you know, this is why

571
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: I also have made enemies by like I wrote also

572
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: a piece you know, not too long ago, against gay

573
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: pride or just asking.

574
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: For people to the same newspaper too, the same newspaper. Yeah,

575
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: you know, like do we need to be proud at

576
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: this stage? Like what are we being proud of? Exactly?

577
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: Like I understand we needed to be we needed to

578
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: pretend to be proud when.

579
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: Everyone thought it should be more proud than anyone else.

580
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: Exactly, that's right, just but also what are we being

581
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: proud of? Like I'm not proud that I'm six foot,

582
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: I'm not proud of being white. If I was proud

583
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: of being white, we would immediately understand that that's a problem. Yeah, right,

584
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: I mean, you shouldn't be proud of being but you're

585
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: not embarrassed. You weren't though at the same time, I'm

586
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: not embarrassed and I'm white. But I also think it's

587
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: silly to be proud of being black or Asian or

588
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: gay or like what like be proud of the things

589
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: you do.

590
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: Who gives it what?

591
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: So that was my basic point. And then but you're

592
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: not part of the Israel trip, part of Jewish. I

593
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: am part of it, you know, I am, whether I

594
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: want to be or not, a guy who will be

595
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: labeled as gay and a guy who will be labeled

596
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: as a jew. Right, I'd be Jewish enough to be

597
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: shoveled into a constant tration camp. You know, I'd be

598
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: Jewish enough for you know, for Hitler. He's not going

599
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: to be you know, he's not quibbling whether whether I

600
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: believe I'm history. Yeah, I'd be straight in, straight into

601
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: the straight into the gas shads. So you know, there's that,

602
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: And then what's happened is that I've had this sort

603
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: of conflicted relationship, like a lot of Jewish Nians do.

604
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: I think, with the state of Israel. Here's a country

605
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: that the politics of Israel as as opposed.

606
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: To exactly not This is a very important distinction, not

607
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: with israelis and not with the existence of a country

608
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: that is called Israel, but with the expectation that a

609
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: lot of people in the Jewish community have that we

610
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: have to only have conversations internally about our problems with Israel,

611
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: and we shouldn't that It's sort of again that the

612
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: kind of the wagons, you know, surrounding the caravan, and

613
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 2: like the hunkering down and the tribalism, like we shouldn't

614
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: air our dirty laundry about Israel to the rest of society,

615
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: to non Jewish people, because that will only give ammunition

616
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: to you know, anti Semitism or something. And I've been

617
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: newly on that since October seventh, since the barbaric attacks

618
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: by the hardest death cult who can select?

619
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 3: What do you think about that, Josh so so, just

620
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: talk about October seventh, Yeah, just as a preface right.

621
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: Now, Well, it was.

622
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: More more horrifying than the savagery of people storming across

623
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: a border and like raping innocent young partygoers at a

624
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: music festival who are high on ecstasy, a lot of them,

625
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: which is what was happening on that date. What's happening

626
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 2: on that day?

627
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: It has But you're saying it had great ramifications, that

628
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: there was greater intent behind it, Well.

629
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: There was a lot.

630
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean, I think it was just just

631
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: to remind people. Right, You've got over a thousand people,

632
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: you know, innocent people and a pretty hippie, dippy part

633
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: of the country who were left part it was a

634
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: left wing part of the country. Therefore they're you know,

635
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: they're mostly peace nicks and they're mostly it's a love

636
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: rave right in a field, and these people are being

637
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: raped with rifle butts and you know, having their internal organs,

638
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: you know, smeared everywhere, and you know, just the most

639
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: and with glee, like these people are don't with glee, right,

640
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: It's not like this is a regrettable casualty that we

641
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: have together, we have to do in order to achieve

642
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: something on our way to attack a military installation or something.

643
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: They're not going for any military installations. Wanted to kill

644
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: lots of Jews. It was a pogrom. But what was

645
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: more disturbing to me than that was that immediately instantly

646
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: protests all over the world in support of the Palestinians

647
00:31:53,120 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: who had elected this jihadist death cult Hamas, which had

648
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: then carried out this attack before Israel had done anything.

649
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: Right, we actually went down here with your prowse. Yeah,

650
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: literally days after it, Yeah, with people yelling where are

651
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: the Jews?

652
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: And then there was some misinformation that they had said

653
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: gas the Jews. And then you know, I got into

654
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: a few arguments online with friends of mine, like Antoinette Leatwof,

655
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: who was saying like, no, no, no, it wasn't gas

656
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: the Jews, it was where of the Jews?

657
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: And I was like, excuse me for not being.

658
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: Hugely reassured by that distinction. Why are there a bunch

659
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: of Arab Muslims, you know, rallying, screaming.

660
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: Where are the Jews? Do they have good.

661
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: Intentions for me? It's not a consolation that they're not.

662
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:35,959
Speaker 1: Like.

663
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 2: This is what I'm sort of objecting to and why

664
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: I wanted to write the piece. I don't want the

665
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: whole world, including Australia, to become tribalized into identity groups

666
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: who feel like they have to carry water for either

667
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: jihadists or the Netta Yahu government. That's not my fight,

668
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: that's not our fight, that's not the fight of That

669
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: shouldn't be the fight of Arab Australians. That shouldn't be

670
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: the fight of Muslim Australians. Certainly shouldn't be the fight

671
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: of foggy headed, lefty, well meaning white Australians on Instagram

672
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: who have no connection to the region but see images

673
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: of devastation on their iPhones and think that it's now

674
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: their calling to bang on constantly and become elatant, yeah

675
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: about how terrible Zionists are and use the terms Ionists

676
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: in ways that smell to most Jews like anti semitic,

677
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: you know, like slander. So the point of the article

678
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: was basically saying we have to find a way to

679
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: talk about our Jewishness, the Jewish community, where we're not

680
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: always carrying water for Israel. So when I said when

681
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: I write, I probably if I write it again, Honestly, Mark,

682
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: I wouldn't write that. I wouldn't write it's time for

683
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: Jews who abandon Israel. But as you know, when you're writing,

684
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: you've got these two competing needs. When you're writing, one

685
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: is to be highly delicate and nuanced and explanatory and

686
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: hedging everything you say so you can't possibly be misunders stood,

687
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: and right in a very academic way.

688
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: You annoyed with yourself. You're doing that.

689
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people it's boring. Nobody wants to read a thesis.

690
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: The other need you have is to have people fall

691
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 2: off their seat and go bloody hell. That punched me

692
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: in the gut. I felt that, you know, I really

693
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: felt that the audience, and so you know, I spend

694
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: the whole art I spend eleven hundred and fifty words

695
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: talking about what misguided hypocrites. I think that the anti

696
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 2: Zionist movement is how they don't understand the history of

697
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: that region, theyn't understand why there's a settlement. They don't

698
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: understand why, I mean the settlements in the West Bank.

699
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: They understand why there's an occupation. Most of them don't

700
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: know about the Oslo Accords. They don't know about Yitzak Rabin.

701
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: They don't know what happened in nineteen sixty seven. They

702
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: don't know who invaded the West Bank. When Israel was created,

703
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: it wasn't Israel, it was Jordan. They don't know who

704
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: invaded Gaza when Israel was created. It wasn't Israel, it

705
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 2: was Egypt. They don't understand why Israel is sitting on

706
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: this land at all, because it was invaded by all

707
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: of its Arab neighbor who wanted to either kill all

708
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: the Jews or drive them out of the region. And

709
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: then it won a military victory, which ordinarily means you

710
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: get to keep the land.

711
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: You don't just give it back that you know, you

712
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: don't get the deal. That's the deal. You don't get

713
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: to keep invading.

714
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: They invaded in forty eight, the Arab States in sixty seven,

715
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: in seventy three, and every time they want they want

716
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: to go, you know, okay, we're going to wipe out

717
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: all the Israelis and we're going to take back all

718
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: the land for the Arabs, and then when we lose, oh,

719
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: let's just go back to the starting place. No, I'm sorry,

720
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: that's not how wars work. You don't get to just

721
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: keep declaring war against the people and then just say

722
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: can we have a do over? So, you know, there

723
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: was a huge history, and then you don't have to

724
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 2: go to the nineteen nineties and the fact that the

725
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: Nobel Peace Prize went to Yitzak Rabin and Shimon Perez

726
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: and the Palestine leader for you know, really agreeing to

727
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: a two state solution. Then the Israeli PM gets.

728
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: Assassinated, but the Israelis continue.

729
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 2: To try to figure out a way to divest themselves

730
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: of these territories which they're occupying, which was supposed to

731
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: be the Palestine land. And what happens then, you know,

732
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: so they have Camp David in the year two thousand

733
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: and Clinton gets together with Barak and the Palastinian leader

734
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: of Bus and they make another offer, and the Palestinians

735
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 2: walk away, and they launch what's acutely called the Second

736
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: Intofada in the year two thousand, which really ramps up

737
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: in the northern summer of two thousand and one. You

738
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: see posters. Now that's say globalize the Intervada. Have you

739
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 2: seen that on stickers and posters and stuff, people say,

740
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: globalize the Innovada, meaning the Palsenian cause is our cause,

741
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: you know, the Palasian cause is the Indigenousustralian cause. You know,

742
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: it's about work, it's about fighting back against the white

743
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 2: colonialist you know, structural patriarchy and global capitalist hegemony of

744
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: like the military complex. Yeah, the colonizers. So the world

745
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: is like bifurcated into these two very simple camps. You're

746
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: either a colonizer zionist, you know, militarist, pro us imperialist

747
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: white or you're an innocent, blameless person of color, colonized victim.

748
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: It's victim or victimizer. It's colonized or colonizer. That's that's

749
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: like this simplistic binary that you're supposed to accept about

750
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: the world.

751
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: The fact that the.

752
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 2: Arab States have been pushing Islam at the end of

753
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: a sword for centuries across the Middle East. The fact

754
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: that the Jews had the Kingdom of King David thousands

755
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: of years ago. The fact that when you dig up Israel,

756
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 2: it's all Jewish archaeological stuff. The fact that if anyone

757
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: was doing a welcome to country in the Middle East,

758
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 2: in Israel, it will be the Jews doing the welcome

759
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 2: to country in Israel. This is all sort of glossed

760
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: over because of the atrocities that are being perpetrated by

761
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 2: Israeli right now. Right now, people see that, they see

762
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: a snapshot, and just as if you'd seen a snapshot

763
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: of Hiroshima or the fire bombing of Dresden on your

764
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: phone every single day. I mean, who would you think

765
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: was the good guy in World War Two if every

766
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: single day the Nazi, Yeah, the Nazis were feeding you

767
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: all of the information about how horrible it was to

768
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: live in Dresden. I mean, how would you continue to

769
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: support that sort of a campaign. So there's this lack

770
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: of historical Well, the second in fart just to stop

771
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: on the point of Intafada, because you know a lot

772
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: of people don't know this. First of June two thousand

773
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: and one, vast majority of Israelis are behind the peace process,

774
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 2: which has now been dragging on for seven eight nine,

775
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: about ten years of trying to figure out a way

776
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 2: to give the West Bank and Gaza back to the

777
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: Palestinians and create a state and the major stumbling block

778
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 2: is the question of the right of return of Palestinians.

779
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: Right the UN when they set up you remember, end

780
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: of the Second World War, countries are being created all

781
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: over the Joint Refugees are all over the place. My

782
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 2: grandparents are kicked out of you know, Poland, kicked out

783
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: of Europe. They come set up here, huge flows of people.

784
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: The Jews are being kicked out of all the Arab

785
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: countries in the Middle East, and they're going to Israel

786
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: because they're hoping that the country's going to be created,

787
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: and it gets created, and there's a bit for Israel,

788
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 2: and then to the east of that there's the West

789
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: Bank and Gaza for the Arab population. They weren't called

790
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: Palestinians yet they invented that nationality after you know, they

791
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: were dispossessed from the land, and that was where the

792
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 2: Arabs go. And then about a fifth of the population

793
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: of Israel proper remain Arabs. They are Arab Israeli citizens, right.

794
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 2: They enjoy equal rights to the rest of They're probably

795
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: the best treated Arabs in the world.

796
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: There's Arabs living in this the Arabs living in Israel.

797
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: You know, if I gave you, if I suddenly click

798
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 2: my fingers and said, all right, you're now an Arab

799
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 2: and you don't know whether you're going to be rich

800
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: or part of a royal family. You're just going to

801
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: be an average citizen, right, You're just going to spin

802
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: a You're going to roll the dice, and you could

803
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: be anywhere in society at any level. You could either

804
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: be poor or rich or whatever based on status.

805
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: Whatever.

806
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: You get to choose to be anywhere in the Middle

807
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: East as the place. I mean, you're not going to

808
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: choose You're not going to go to an Arab state.

809
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course most and that by the ways of

810
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 3: most people. Most people don't realize that Israel treats the

811
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 3: Arabes who live there. Well, absolutely, I want to reframe it.

812
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: It's not like they're treading will just there's no treing well,

813
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: no turing bad.

814
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: There's three citizens in a liberal democracy that's rich and

815
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: in avery. So what do you do about the Arabs

816
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: that are surrounding the place, Well, the instant Israel gets created.

817
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: Instead of allowing the Arabs to form their own state,

818
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: Jordan invades the West Bank and guyes We'll take that.

819
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,959
Speaker 2: And by the sixties what is now the West Bank

820
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: is like a third of Jordan's economy and population. It's

821
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: like a big thriving part of Jordan, and Egypt is

822
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: sitting on the Gaza strip. So the reason why initially

823
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 2: why there was no Palestine was because the Arab states

824
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: didn't want there to be, because they wanted to keep

825
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: the land for themselves. Then they got a bit greedy

826
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: and tried to take over Israel completely in nineteen sixty seven,

827
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: and unfortunately for them, Israel won back those territories and

828
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: then was like, well, what do we do with them now?

829
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: And everyone in Israel basically thought we're going to have

830
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: to help them create a Palastinian state at some point.

831
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 1: The problem was every time they.

832
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: Tried to broach the topic of creating a Palastinian state,

833
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: every single Palestinian leader, including up until today, found it

834
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: impossible to say that they don't have a right to

835
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: go back to Tel Aviv and the original places where

836
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 2: some of them came from. Some of them were born

837
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: and raised in the West Bank, some of them born

838
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: and raised in Gaza, but many of them can trace

839
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: their ancestry back to what is now Israel proper, and

840
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: as far as Israel's concerned that's not a fair deal.

841
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 2: Nineteen forty eight was a weird time. It was a

842
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: long time ago.

843
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, a lot of Palatinians are hanging around with

844
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: like a key or on.

845
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: It's a thing in Palestine to have a key hanging

846
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: on a necklace around your neck to the house that

847
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: you're great great grandparents came from in what is now

848
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 2: some Israeli town saying like someday, someday I'll be able

849
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: to return, and my romantic it's very romantic, and it's

850
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 2: really sad, and my heart goes out to the Palastinian people.

851
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I am as devastated as anybody about how

852
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 2: badly they've been screwed. I just disagree with the mainstream

853
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: Palastinian narrative that the main cause of their being screwed

854
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 2: is Jews. The main cause of their being screwed is

855
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: the fact is the dysfunctional way that the Arab world

856
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: has continued to inflame the Palestinian right of return, that

857
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: someday we will go back to the sea, the Jews

858
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: won't be here anymore. This kind of a lot of

859
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: Arab autocrats and the Arab street and the jihadists and

860
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: the Iranian Theocrats have a vested interest in promoting in

861
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: whipping up this kind of anti Semitic.

862
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: It's good.

863
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,720
Speaker 2: Well, it bonds them together, it gives them a common enemy,

864
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 2: and it absolves them of the responsibility to do anything

865
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: for the Palatinians. Right, they don't have to allow Katar

866
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: just hosted the World Cup, right a couple of years ago.

867
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: Who build all the stadiums. They shipped in people from

868
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: Bangladesh to build the stadiums. Why don't they let Palestinians

869
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: come and build the stadiums and send some money back home?

870
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 2: Do you want to Why do you think that because

871
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: they don't like I mean sad truth is, the Arab

872
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 2: golf states don't like the Palestinians. They think they're gey hardists.

873
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: They think they're trouble, they think they're lazy, they think

874
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 2: they're dysfunctional, and they don't see a future in them.

875
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: They see a.

876
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: Future in oil money, tourism, opening up to the world,

877
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 2: and ideally eventually being on the same side as Israel

878
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: in the United States. They want to back winners, they

879
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: want to back the stronghorse. The problem is the Hour

880
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: of Street can't contemplate that. So the Arab leaders who

881
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 2: are playing a double game, right the Arab leaders in

882
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: the Golf States and in Saudi Arabia. Their attitude is

883
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: keep talking a big game about how much we care

884
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: about Palaestinians, but don't give them the ability. Don't give

885
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 2: them any work visas to come and work here and

886
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: send money back to their families in Gaza or the

887
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 2: West Bank. Don't allow them to get citizenship or permanent

888
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 2: residency in places like Lebanon, where tons of these refugees

889
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: currently live, and they're stateless. They can't even travel Mark.

890
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: You know.

891
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: I've I've met people in Lebanon who asked them what

892
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: nationality they are, and they say Palestinian. They have a

893
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: Palestinian ID card, but they're not Lebanese. They don't have

894
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: a passport, and as far as they're concerned, they say

895
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: they're Palestinian. They've never been to the town that their

896
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: great great grandparents came from. Their parents have never been there,

897
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: their grandparents have never been there, and sometimes their great

898
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: grandparents have never been there. But their home, deep in

899
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: their heart, is still this town in what is now

900
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 2: Israel proper. And they've been sold a lie by Arab

901
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: leaders and by international aid organizations and by well meaning

902
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: lefties around the world for sixty years that someday they

903
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 2: will be able to return. And so the pickle that

904
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: Israel has found itself in which it was trying to

905
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: address is like we get this bit of land, you

906
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: get that bit of land. We don't get to come

907
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 2: and live in the West Bank or like Gaza, if

908
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 2: you don't get to come and live on in Israel,

909
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 2: like it's supposed to be two countries. And the inability

910
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: to find a way to divest itself of the West

911
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 2: Bank and Gaza has now led to Israel into what

912
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: I think is this moral abyss, where it is running

913
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: a military occupation in the West Bank, humiliating and degrading Palastinians.

914
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 2: It continues to build settlements meaning towns, you know, just

915
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 2: constructs Jewish towns on what is supposed to be Palatinian land,

916
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: which is hardly a show of good faith that you're

917
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: actually serious about a two state solution. And now it

918
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: has taken the most brutal and militaristic approach to addressing

919
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: the problem of having jihadists, you know, of having essentially

920
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: terrorists running the Enclaven Gaza, where there seems to be

921
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 2: no care for human life whatsoever or no proportionality.

922
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: Now it seems that or you think that is the case.

923
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: Well, look, I understand how tricky it is to talk

924
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: about because as far as the Israelis are concerned, Look,

925
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: israelis Rozrael Israel, as far as Israel is concerned. But

926
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: I would have to say that now they are almost indistinguishable.

927
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I would say that ninety percent of the

928
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,439
Speaker 2: Israeli population is on board with the view I'm about

929
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: to articulate, even if they don't agree with the Netanyahu government.

930
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 2: They would say there used to be Israeli towns in Gaza,

931
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 2: there used to be settlements, and we withdrew in two

932
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 2: thousand and five and there was no blockade there. Israel

933
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: was not stuff and around with Gaza at all. There

934
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: was a full unilateral withdrawal. They ripped out. The army

935
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 2: went in and ripped out, screaming Jews from Gaza, in

936
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 2: order to say, you know what we're done, have it,

937
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 2: take it, do what you want with it, guys, We're

938
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 2: over having a military occupation. And that was a test

939
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 2: case for the West Bank. There are a lot of

940
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 2: people in the Israeli government at the time in two

941
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 2: thousand and four to two thousand and five, who thought,

942
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: the way we're going to do this is to withdraw

943
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: from Gaza, and as long as that works, we'll just

944
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 2: unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank and we won't keep

945
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: waiting for them to accept our right to exist.

946
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: They're never going to do it. They're never going to

947
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: come around.

948
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: Just build a big wall, leave side by side. The

949
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: problem was the Prime Minister of Israel had a stroke

950
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: and wasn't able to completely fulfill that. And the other

951
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 2: problem was it was after nine to eleven George W.

952
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: Bush and Connolly's a Ris the Secretary of State, and

953
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 2: the United States were big on empowering the Arab world

954
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 2: to be more democratic. They wanted to shake up of

955
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: the Arab world. They thought the problem was too many

956
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: Arab dictators, and so they were like, let's empower the

957
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: Ghazan people by giving them a vote for who they

958
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: want to rule them. And the Israelis were like, don't

959
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 2: do that. They're going to just vote in a bunch

960
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: of usholes who want to kill everybody. And they were

961
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 2: persuaded otherwise by the international community and by the US.

962
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: You know, let's create a democratic Gaza. Well, the Gazans

963
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: have voted for terrorists. They voted for Hummus Humas. And

964
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: once you've got this fully, I mean, I don't want

965
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 2: to mince words here. People should not understand Hummas as

966
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: anything other than an incredibly ragingly jew hating, murderous, genocidal

967
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: death cult. I mean, this is not a you know,

968
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: some people sort of think, well, it's you know, it's

969
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: a it's sort of like Nelson Mandela or something like,

970
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: it's a liberation struggle.

971
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: Yes, it's that.

972
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: It's not the plo I mean it is of course,

973
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: of course, it is fueled by the frustrations of a

974
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 2: people who yearn for freedom. But their freedom has not

975
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 2: been deprived by Israel over the past since two thousand

976
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: and five, their freedom has been deprived by the terrorists

977
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: who are holding them hostage and by the Arab states,

978
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 2: especially Qatar, who empower that. And I'll add by the

979
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: cynicism of the Netanyahu government in facilitating that, because it

980
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: sort of suited Israel's right wing government to have Hummus

981
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 2: in power in Gaza, because it was a It meant

982
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 2: it gave them an excuse to not pursue peace. Right

983
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: they were like, well, we're not going to go negotiate elections, yeah,

984
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: because we're war.

985
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 1: No election.

986
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well, I mean of course they're not going

987
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 2: to have elect I mean, hummus would never allow elections.

988
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 3: Anym But also in Israel, so I see what sort

989
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 3: of securities position.

990
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well exactly.

991
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: I mean he'll have the elections that he's required constitutionally

992
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: to have, but he doesn't have to. Yeah, he can

993
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: call them at the time of his choosing, and it's

994
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: when it suits him the best. So this is a

995
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: long rambling way of saying that once you've got the

996
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: death cult in charge, then Israel imposes a blockade because

997
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: you can't have people who are obviously committed to I mean,

998
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 2: they start getting money, right, Gaza starts getting money from

999
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: the international community, and what does its government do with it.

1000
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't build. It could have built Singapore with the

1001
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 2: amount of money it's gotten, could have built high rises,

1002
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 2: could have made itself a technology hub, could have dinailing

1003
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: with it. It builds the largest tunnel network in the

1004
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: world that it doesn't allow civilians into. It only allows

1005
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,959
Speaker 2: its military into, and then uses its civilians as human

1006
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 2: shields and pawns. So again, this is a long round

1007
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: about way of saying they've rigged the game the Palestinian

1008
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 2: government in Gaza, such that anything that Israel does to

1009
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 2: get rid of them is going to make Israel essentially

1010
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 2: guilty of genocide in the eyes of the world. Like

1011
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: if your own government is committed to killing as many

1012
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 2: innocent people as possible in order to stay in power,

1013
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: then you're basically booby trapped the system such that your

1014
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 2: adversary has to do horrendous things in order to get

1015
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: you out of power. And the tragedy is that Israel

1016
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 2: is doing those things. Like I don't know whether or

1017
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: not you can classify it as war crimes or genocide

1018
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: or whatever. To me, there's a legalistic way that you

1019
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: can say that Israel is guilty of genocide by that yardstick.

1020
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 2: Hiroshimu was genocide. Lots of things that the West has done.

1021
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: Vietnam was genocide that were you know, because like genocide

1022
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 2: technically under international law, I think is just the the

1023
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: whole or partial like prevention of a people from being

1024
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: able to exist as a people. So if you think

1025
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,959
Speaker 2: of the Gardens as a people, you'd have to say

1026
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,720
Speaker 2: that that's the case, right, Their lives are being rendered

1027
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: intolerable to live as Garzens. But if, as many Israelis

1028
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 2: see it, you see the gardens as a shat upon

1029
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 2: rump of the wider Arab world, and there are half

1030
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 2: a billion Arabs living in the Middle East and just

1031
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,959
Speaker 2: a few million Jews, then it's obviously.

1032
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: Not a genocide.

1033
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,879
Speaker 2: Like I spoke to one Israeli member of parliament, former

1034
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: member of parliament on my show, and she was like,

1035
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: you know when it'll be like a genocide when there

1036
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: are half a billion Jews and only a few million Arabs.

1037
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 2: Like the population of Arabs and the population gardens, of

1038
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: the population of the West Bank of Palestinians in general

1039
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: is continuing to grow and grow and grow. And I

1040
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: think when people, when the lay person hears the word genocide,

1041
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 2: what they think it means, and what I think it

1042
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 2: morally means is the intentional attempt to wipe out an

1043
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: ethnic group, to wipe it out. And I don't think

1044
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 2: that's what Israel is doing. But I also don't think

1045
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: that as a Jewish Australian I should be expected to

1046
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 2: keep making excuses for a state that I think has

1047
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: become deranged by its own predicament as in Israel.

1048
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and well, can I just go back on the garden,

1049
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 3: the Garden Hamas differentiation? How do you reconcile that this

1050
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 3: is part of the narrative? But innocent gardens innocent let's

1051
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 3: call Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas but

1052
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 3: nothing to do with the ruling party are being killed

1053
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 3: whilst Israel is trying to get rid of Hamas as

1054
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 3: the reigning sort of group in the organ within Israel. Man,

1055
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 3: how do we reckon sold that?

1056
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: Now?

1057
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 3: You know, like I get the fact that Israel wants

1058
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 3: to get rid of mus I get it because, as

1059
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 3: you said, it seems to be the terrorist organization and

1060
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 3: they're intent on one thing, one thing alone, that's wiping

1061
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 3: out Israel or wiping out Jews generally, and israel I

1062
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 3: guess too.

1063
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: But at the same time, there's Palace.

1064
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 3: There are Gars, people living Gaza who've got nothing to

1065
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 3: do with any of that. At what point do we

1066
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 3: say that Israel's gone too far?

1067
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1068
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: I mean that's the question, isn't it. That is the question.

1069
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that. But you know,

1070
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 2: you start wars, you know, play stupid games, win stupid

1071
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: prizes mark the start a war, then your people die.

1072
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 3: But but you do see the unfairness because a lot

1073
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 3: of people in Palestine were a lot of Gazans at

1074
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 3: the time, willn't even know that October seventh is going

1075
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 3: to happen, that they weren't warned.

1076
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: No, that's I mean, that's what I'm so sympathetic to many.

1077
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm conflicted in two ways. Right on the

1078
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 2: one hand, I think they that gardens are basically hostages,

1079
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: hostages to a had used death cult, Hostages to the

1080
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 2: cynicism of Arab autocrats, hostages to the whole notion of

1081
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 2: jihadism as it's sort of perpetrated by the same kinds

1082
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 2: of forces that gave rise to ISIS And a lot

1083
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 2: of this is linked back to Iran and the theocracy there,

1084
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,800
Speaker 2: and hostages of international The international community have always found

1085
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 2: Israel a bit unseemly in a way that they single

1086
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: it out for like the Unitedations has more resolutions against

1087
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 2: Israel than any other country in the world, I think

1088
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: than the next you know, ten or something combined, Like

1089
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,240
Speaker 2: do we actually believe that it's actually more worthy of censure.

1090
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: Than North Korea? In Saudi Arabia.

1091
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, what's going on is yeah, and

1092
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 2: you know, nothing it's done is even remotely approaches the

1093
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: atrocities of the next you know, worst fifty countries you

1094
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 2: know who don't who aren't censored. So israelis smell a rat.

1095
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 2: On the question of like, how many dead babies? Is

1096
00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 2: too many dead babies? I kind of think it's the

1097
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 2: wrong framing in the sense that I think that implicit

1098
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 2: in the question about this, at least for me in

1099
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 2: the early stages of the war, is a belief that

1100
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 2: the Palestinian people, through their views, their community, their elected representatives,

1101
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 2: their arguments on the global stage, were deeply, deeply wronged

1102
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: by Israel, only wanted peace with Israel and were predictably

1103
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 2: going to do something outrageous in order to break out

1104
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: of the sort of open air prison that Gaza had become.

1105
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: And if you start from that starting point, then I

1106
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 2: would sort of say that almost no civilian casualty is

1107
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 2: worth the price. At the time, I was arguing that

1108
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 2: Israel should have done something like moved the entire population

1109
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,760
Speaker 2: of women and children into the southern part of Israel,

1110
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 2: or maybe into the Sinai where Egypt is and create

1111
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 2: a huge humanitarian zone where they could be well treated.

1112
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: And then any military age male who remains in Gaza

1113
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 2: either let them either vet them and let them out. Yeah,

1114
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 2: and forget about the hostage hostages.

1115
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: They're done.

1116
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: Sorry, you know you're not going to you know, this

1117
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: is the last time we bend over backwards and reward

1118
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 2: you for taking our hostages.

1119
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 1: This is it.

1120
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: It ends here, and just flood the tunnels or something,

1121
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 2: you know, just like go full there. There are strategies

1122
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: you can imagine that would have avoided the amount of ongoing,

1123
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 2: constant carnage that I think has been reputationally terrible and

1124
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 2: morally abysmal. But if you flip the script and you

1125
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 2: see Palatinians not as innocent, Like, here's an interesting thing.

1126
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 2: Mark tim Mitchell said this to me actually on my show.

1127
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: Notice who we give sympathy to, and notice who we

1128
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 2: give agency to, and it'll tell you a lot about

1129
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 2: our own prejudices and biases.

1130
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Notice who we.

1131
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: Give sympathy to, and notice who we give agency to,

1132
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: because we often overdo it. If there's a brown, poor

1133
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: person standing amid rubble, we give them all the sympathy

1134
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 2: and none of the agency. And if there's a white

1135
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 2: guy in a fancy suit, speaking perfect English, who is

1136
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 2: educated in an American university and who's in charge of

1137
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 2: a lot of expensive bombs, we give them all the

1138
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 2: agency and zero sympathy. And that's a fudge. Yes, the

1139
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 2: Palestinian child, it does not deserve to be in the

1140
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 2: situation they are in, so we can see. But their

1141
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 2: uncles and their grandparents have been complicit, or at least

1142
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 2: been manipulated by people who are complicit in a refusal

1143
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 2: to accept that any Jews have a right to a

1144
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: country in the Middle East, a country that was established

1145
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: under international law at a time when it was perfectly

1146
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 2: legitimate for them to live in the boundaries that where

1147
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 2: they were. And we've split ourselves into these two kind

1148
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 2: of narratives where imagine, like just to sort of try

1149
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: to amp up our sympathy for the people who most

1150
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 2: Australians regard as being the villains in this which is

1151
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 2: the Israelis, Imagine you bend over backwards in the nineties

1152
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 2: with a large majority of your population really wanting a

1153
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 2: Palacitian state, which they did, and the response you get

1154
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 2: is what's called the Second Intofada, which is. I think

1155
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 2: it was fifteen hundred drive by shootings in the space

1156
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 2: of a single year. So every other day you've got

1157
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 2: a bomb or a drive by shooting in your country

1158
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 2: at a time when you thought that you were on

1159
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 2: track for a peace process, you know, on the June

1160
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 2: the first in two thousand and one, the first bomb

1161
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 2: was at this nightclub on the beach, which was mostly

1162
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 2: high school students.

1163
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: That's the other thing.

1164
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 2: They were mostly targeting kids because they knew that would

1165
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 2: be the pressure point, the pain point. So imagine you're

1166
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 2: a parent who you know with fifteen or sixteen year

1167
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 2: old kids and they're out in Fitzroy and Melbourne, or

1168
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 2: in Newtown in Sydney, or in Fremantle in Perth and

1169
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: the pub that they're in it has a bally bombing

1170
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 2: style bomb and that happens two days later, and that

1171
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 2: happens two days after that. How many weeks or months

1172
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 2: of that do you need before you go, hang on,

1173
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 2: why are we doing the peace thing? What do they want?

1174
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 2: What is this all about? I thought we were talking

1175
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 2: to each other about. Oh, they don't want peace at all.

1176
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 2: They're timing these bombings to coincide with the peace talks.

1177
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 2: Because they want the whole Enchilada, And that's popular position

1178
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 2: in Palestine, It's a very popular position in the Arab world,

1179
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 2: and it's an increasingly popular proposition in Australia and the

1180
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 2: West that Israel is a shitty little country that shouldn't

1181
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 2: exist at all. Basically, it's kind of a colonial project

1182
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 2: and it was the Palestinians land all along.

1183
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: So if you're in Israeli, like, can we understand.

1184
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 2: Why they would elect a shitty little government like Netta

1185
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 2: Yahoo's And you know, they even went back to the

1186
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 2: drawing board after the second into Farda, and they tried

1187
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight. There was the biggest, most

1188
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 2: generous software that Omett put on the table, and the

1189
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 2: Palaestinians wouldn't take it because it didn't involve Palestinians moving

1190
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 2: en mass back into Israel and swamping the Jewish population

1191
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 2: because their great great great grandparents lived there. Like do

1192
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 2: the Jews get the right of the right of return

1193
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 2: if they left Iraq in the forties? Do the Jews

1194
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: get a right of return to Syria? Do the Jews

1195
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 2: get a right of return to Poland? The only people

1196
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 2: who get a right of return back to the places

1197
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 2: where their ancestors were displaced from. In this Palastinian worldview,

1198
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: the Palacinians in the West Bank and Gaza who get

1199
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 2: to demolish Israel basically demographically by coming in in their

1200
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 2: millions and millions and millions. What country in the world

1201
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 2: would tolerate that kind of refugee resettlement. What the Israelis want,

1202
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 2: understandably is their country and a Palastinian country. Now, I

1203
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 2: am super critical of Israel for being disingenuous about pursuing that,

1204
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 2: for having been conflicted about it, for maintaining a brutalizing

1205
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 2: military occupation in the West Bank, for continuing to build

1206
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 2: towns in the West Bank that make it seem like

1207
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: they're not really committed to a two state solution, for

1208
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: the brutality of the blockade on Gaza, which was understandable

1209
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 2: because a death cult was in charge, And for the

1210
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:42,920
Speaker 2: way they prosecate prosecuting the war. And the point of

1211
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 2: my article was to say, we as a Jewish community

1212
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 2: have to be free from bullshit and brave in saying

1213
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 2: this state is not our state, it's not my state,

1214
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 2: it's not the state that my grandmother envisioned, it's not

1215
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: a state that's living up to the aspirations of what

1216
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 2: it means to be Jewish. To me, it's a state

1217
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 2: that has fallen into paranoia, bitterness and dehumanization. But it

1218
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 2: is a state that has a right to exist, and

1219
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: it is a state that is in a part of

1220
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 2: the world that persistently refuses to accept that right. And

1221
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 2: it is a state that is dealing with neighbors who

1222
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 2: it is occupying, who have persistently, with one voice, insisted

1223
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 2: that they have a right to come back to where

1224
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 2: their great great grandparents were born, a right that nobody

1225
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 2: else in the world gets. And so it's a bit

1226
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 2: bloody rich I feel for us to be dividing up

1227
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: our own society, for Jewish Australian parents to be worried

1228
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 2: about their children waiting at the bus stop because they

1229
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 2: could be identified as going to a Jewish school, for

1230
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 2: my dad's nursing home, to have put up big new

1231
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 2: security fences and bollards, or really, in the past twelve months,

1232
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 2: because some deranged jihadist might drive a truck bomb into

1233
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 2: a bunch of old Holocaust survivors. You say that's paranoia

1234
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 2: or you don't. No, I think that's legitimate legitimate. I

1235
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 2: think there is legitimate concern. I like that this is

1236
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 2: how toxic it has become. And I'm proud that I'm

1237
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 2: a member of a community where I can speak out

1238
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 2: and write a piece like I did saying this Israel

1239
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: doesn't speak for me. Where are the pieces by the

1240
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 2: Arab Muslim Australians saying that the Palestinian cause doesn't that

1241
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 2: that doesn't speak for them, but Hummas doesn't speak for them,

1242
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 2: that the idea of eradicate Israel.

1243
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: Why do you think?

1244
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 2: Do you think equally because of the tribalism factor that

1245
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 2: we were talking about before, and.

1246
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: I strongly tribal then say that, yes, yes.

1247
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 3: I do.

1248
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 1: I think so.

1249
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think Muslims as a rule, and

1250
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 2: I'll get a lot of shit for saying this. I

1251
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: think that the Muslim community, as a rule, it tends

1252
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 2: towards more conservatism, and tends towards closing ranks, and has

1253
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 2: been too apologetic for dysfunctional systems of government and for

1254
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 2: jihadism and for Islamism. Over the past twenty or thirty years,

1255
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 2: you know, there's been a kind of like, well, it's

1256
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 2: not our problem's got nothing to do with us. Well,

1257
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 2: you know, major Muslim institutions from Saudi Arabia have been

1258
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 2: spreading their version of salaphust Islam right throughout the world,

1259
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 2: across the you know, this kind of Wahabi extremism, or

1260
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 2: even across places like Indonesia. And I would like it

1261
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 2: if members of the community were more willing and more

1262
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 2: open to say like, no, no, no, no no. The

1263
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 2: things that are getting preached in lakember Mosque about you know,

1264
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 2: white people and Jews being pigs and Americans being imperialists Nazis,

1265
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 2: that's not that's ridiculous. And so I'm just trying to

1266
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 2: do my bit by saying, like, we have to find

1267
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 2: a way of talking about our ethnic communities in the

1268
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 2: diasprain places like Australia that does not hit us to

1269
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: the wagon of other countries or other agendas overseas. Do

1270
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 2: not import that kind of toxicity here, you know, like

1271
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 2: this is our country. Let's all get along with it

1272
01:04:53,480 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 2: and don't expect the Jewish community to endure, know, pain,

1273
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 2: discrimination and very real threats of violence, I mean very

1274
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 2: real threats of anti Semitic jew hating violence which people

1275
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 2: delusionally think is directed against Zionism, colonialism, imperialist aggression, but

1276
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 2: is really sort of an the latest incarnation of an

1277
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 2: ancient distaste.

1278
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 3: For the jew Did you think that's because one side,

1279
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,439
Speaker 3: let's call it the Jewish side, much more distant through

1280
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 3: generations away from Israel, and the other side is not

1281
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 3: not as distant. In other words, they might have a

1282
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 3: parent here who's just come in from one of those

1283
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 3: countries that are anti Israel. Do you think there's somebody

1284
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 3: just to do with the sequence of time?

1285
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: Interesting? Could be?

1286
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 2: Could be also, I think, I mean the Israel thing

1287
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 2: is like the Jewish community, it's the oldest enduring ethnicity

1288
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:04,920
Speaker 2: in the West five thousand years. Not from a physical no,

1289
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 2: I understand what we're saying. But the point that I'm

1290
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 2: making is Israel's existed for eighty years, less than eighty years, right,

1291
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 2: So no Israel existed in forty eight or in sixty seven.

1292
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 2: They took over Palestine right when they were invaded. So

1293
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 2: the Jews have had ninety eight point something percent of

1294
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 2: their history with no Israel. I mean, there was the

1295
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 2: ancient kingdom and all list of stuff like in prehistory,

1296
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 2: but I mean Jews are very familiar with not carrying

1297
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: water for Israel. Because it didn't exist for ninety eight

1298
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 2: percent of Jewish history. But I don't think that Muslims

1299
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 2: and Arabs have learned the skill of distancing themselves from

1300
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 2: the ideas of Arab nationalism and Muslim liberation that emerged

1301
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 2: in the twentieth century, Like these are reasonably recent things

1302
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 2: like this kind of extremists. You know, you go back

1303
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 2: a couple of centuries and Muslims weren't extremists. There's nothing

1304
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 2: intrinsic to Islam that is extreme. But I think partly

1305
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 2: as a result of oil and partly as a result

1306
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 2: of colonialism and whatever you want to attribute it to,

1307
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 2: there is a major dysfunction. Anyone who denies that there

1308
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 2: is a major dysfunction in the way that the Arab

1309
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 2: Muslim world articulates its sense of self is kidding themselves.

1310
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the other thing about a Palestinian state.

1311
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 2: What Arab Muslim state are we thinking this Palasinian state

1312
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 2: will look like? That's going to be so great for Palatinians?

1313
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 2: Most anti Zionists can't answer that question for me. Point

1314
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 2: me to this great, well functioning state that says as

1315
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 2: rich and liberal and democratic as Israel, that's great for gays.

1316
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 2: That's great for women. Where is this place? And so

1317
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 2: we're going to create one more failed Arab Muslim state

1318
01:07:57,640 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 2: which is probably going to become a proxy for Iran,

1319
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 2: would almost certainly just become a place where for Iranian

1320
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 2: meddling the way the south of Lebanon is, it would

1321
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 2: become Asbola and much stronghold. So yeah, they deserve a state, absolutely,

1322
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 2: but let's not be dewy eyed about how magnificent everything

1323
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 2: would be if only Israel would get the hell you know.

1324
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: But what's your solution is, Josh? I mean, I'm not

1325
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 1: suggesting you have the solution, but I'm glad you asked

1326
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: because they have a point plan. No I don't. But

1327
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 1: where does it all end up?

1328
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 3: I mean for Australians are talking about not not not there? Right, yeah,

1329
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 3: because we are talking about here. So where what do

1330
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:38,640
Speaker 3: we do? Is that politicians need to intervene? What what

1331
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 3: I mean? I know you have you intervened, but.

1332
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I've intervened. Liked I would have liked to

1333
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 2: see stronger remarks about anti semitism earlier after October seventh,

1334
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 2: just to make it crystal clear from the Urban Easy government.

1335
01:08:55,600 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 2: You'll notice something interesting when we like when we talk

1336
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:06,759
Speaker 2: about the about other forms of bigotry or prejudice or violence,

1337
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 2: we don't feel the need to add on a whole

1338
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 2: bunch of other forms of hate. But when people talk

1339
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 2: about anti Semitism, they never put a full stop after it.

1340
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 2: When people say, like remember the nurses who were who

1341
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,559
Speaker 2: got into trouble for being on that zoom or where

1342
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:27,600
Speaker 2: they were. You know, they were talking about how for

1343
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 2: Jew came in. They were in Israel, in Sydney and

1344
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 2: they were talking to in Israeli. Yeah, they're doing Israeli

1345
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 2: journeys social media guy. Yeah, so you know if a

1346
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 2: Jew came in, we wouldn't treat him. In fact, you know,

1347
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 2: Jews have come in and we've sent them to hell.

1348
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 2: So right after that, a parade of politicians at a

1349
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 2: state and federal level came out and said there is

1350
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 2: absolutely and the Nurses Association also released a statement saying

1351
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 2: there is no place in Australian society for anti Semitism

1352
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 2: or any other form of anti Muslim bigotry or ant.

1353
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 2: And I'm like, here on a second, if someone had

1354
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 2: said had been caught saying I want to kill all

1355
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:14,479
Speaker 2: the Muslims, I wouldn't treat a Muslim. Would you come

1356
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 2: out and say, and you know this supposed it's like

1357
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: a white it's a neo Nazi, right, you know, kill

1358
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 2: all the Muslims. He's obsessed with Muslims. That's his one focus.

1359
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 2: It's all he cares about it. He doesn't talk about

1360
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 2: any other ethnicity. He's just going in on the Muslims.

1361
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:30,719
Speaker 2: Would they come out and say there is no place

1362
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 2: in our society for hatred against Muslims or Jews?

1363
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 1: Of course they wouldn't know. Of course they wouldn't.

1364
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 2: There's a tacit understanding. I think in polite society throughout

1365
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 2: the West that there's something a little bit fishy about

1366
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 2: the bloody Jews. And there's certainly something a bit fishy

1367
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 2: about that bloody nuisance state of Israel, always you know,

1368
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 2: doing shit that we don't want it to and being

1369
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 2: mean to the power Sinians. You go to the Middle East,

1370
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 2: you talk to Palestenians, talk to Arabs, talk.

1371
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 1: To Jews, talk to Israelis.

1372
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 2: They are all much more on the same page about

1373
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 2: the nature of the problem than we are in Australia.

1374
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 2: Like I've spoken to Arab Israelis who were born in

1375
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,679
Speaker 2: Palestine who are now Zionists because they're like, you don't

1376
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,799
Speaker 2: get us, Like you don't understand us. We are very complicated,

1377
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 2: like meaning the Arabs, you don't understand us Arab Palestinians,

1378
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 2: Like we are a very complicated bunch, and we won't

1379
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 2: take yes for an answer, and like, you know, you

1380
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 2: have to, we have to be sort of massaged in

1381
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 2: a way. And I don't know if that's true or not,

1382
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:39,599
Speaker 2: but I know that the conversations that they're having there

1383
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 2: are a lot more nuanced and sophisticated than this silly

1384
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 2: binary that we have over here where we try to

1385
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 2: superimpose all of our own white colonial historical guilt onto them.

1386
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,599
Speaker 2: I mean, what's basically happens since October seventh. I think

1387
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 2: in countries like Australia and the United States, is white

1388
01:11:55,320 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 2: well meaning people have taken the burden of colonial that

1389
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 2: they feel guilty about.

1390
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 1: Them we're now very virtuous about it all.

1391
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, in relation to our own indigenous people, in relation

1392
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 2: to our own conflicted relationship to the British Empire and

1393
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:12,600
Speaker 2: its misdeeds, and we're just superimposing that template onto a

1394
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 2: part of the world that we had no bloody idea

1395
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 2: how it's working, because it's complicated and messy, and there

1396
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 2: have been Jews and Arabs floating around that neck of

1397
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 2: the woods, bumping into each other. They know each other

1398
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 2: so well, so much better than anyone of us knows them.

1399
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:28,559
Speaker 2: Let them sort it out. It's their problem, that's what

1400
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 2: That's the point I was trying to make in my peace.

1401
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 2: Israel Is for Israelis. It's not for the Jews of

1402
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 2: the world to make excuses for Palestinians and Arabs. They

1403
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:43,719
Speaker 2: can all sort it out, okay. Don't allow the plight

1404
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 2: of one minority community of Arabs in the Middle East,

1405
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 2: the Palestinians who've been shot upon six ways from Sunday

1406
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 2: by everybody, by Arab states, who won't give them visas,

1407
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 2: who won't give them permanent residency, who continue to bolster

1408
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 2: Hammas and Jihadas like, let them sort that out. You

1409
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:04,559
Speaker 2: don't have a duty as an hour of Australian to

1410
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 2: be defending Jihadis over there. You don't have a duty

1411
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 2: as an hour Australian to be standing up against your

1412
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 2: Jewish compatriots and fellow Australians because those Jews are somehow

1413
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 2: proxies for a state that they've never been to and

1414
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 2: don't have any control over abroad, Like, the last thing

1415
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 2: we want is to become a huge multicultural warring group

1416
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 2: of factions all representing our international obligations on the streets

1417
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 2: of Australia with some well chosen bomb synagogues or you know,

1418
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 2: or sucker punches to you know, people because of their

1419
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,879
Speaker 2: own ethnicity and multiculturalism has worked really well in Australia.

1420
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 2: It's not screw it up by getting too obsessed about

1421
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:49,759
Speaker 2: what's going on overseas.

1422
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:50,559
Speaker 1: What do you think that?

1423
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 3: What do you think we get obsessed by what's going

1424
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 3: obsease in that particular region. We don't have a we

1425
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 3: don't have marches and protests and lots of media around

1426
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 3: what's going on, say places of Africa.

1427
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 2: Well, I think because of the colonialism thing. I think

1428
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 2: because of what I was just saying, which is that well,

1429
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,680
Speaker 2: I think there are two big reasons. One is what

1430
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 2: I was just saying, which is that it's a it's

1431
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 2: a very neat template. I think sort of easier to

1432
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 2: understand it, much easier to understand, right, poor brown skinned person,

1433
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 2: you know, poor brown skinned people were living there doing

1434
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 2: their thing. Everything was idyllic, and then parachuting in from

1435
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 2: Europe were all these white Jews who came in and

1436
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 2: pushed them out and then were mean to them. This

1437
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:31,720
Speaker 2: is completely ahistorical. Most of the Jews in Israel are

1438
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 2: from the Middle East. They were kicked out of other

1439
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 2: Arab states and they're you know, they're from that neck

1440
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 2: of the woods.

1441
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: There was.

1442
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 2: This was not a colonial project like the British in

1443
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:41,680
Speaker 2: Africa turning up and take control of.

1444
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 1: The joint exactly without coming in from Turkey and Israel from.

1445
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 2: That area and when they were coming to a place

1446
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 2: for thousands and thousands of years. So it was you know,

1447
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 2: it wasn't It wasn't traditional colonialism.

1448
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 3: Coming from Georgia and Armenia and the families went in

1449
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 3: right right exactly.

1450
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:01,799
Speaker 2: So I mean, in other words, it was a colonial

1451
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:03,599
Speaker 2: you know, people will often say, well, they even talked

1452
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 2: about it as a colonial project. Yeah, Colonialism meant a

1453
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 2: slightly different thing in the thirties and forties, just sort

1454
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,719
Speaker 2: of meant a benign you know, to the early Zionists,

1455
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:14,439
Speaker 2: that meant a benign way of reclaiming the territory of

1456
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,160
Speaker 2: their ancestors and creating something beautiful out of it, and

1457
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:19,679
Speaker 2: they did create something incredible. I mean, it's it's it's amazing.

1458
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 2: It's to create this rich, democratic, technologically advanced country in

1459
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 2: a part of the world that is not renowned for that.

1460
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:29,560
Speaker 2: Now I've just lost track of whorld was going. What

1461
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 2: did you just sar ask me?

1462
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:32,160
Speaker 1: I said, why don't we not? Why don't we.

1463
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 2: Yah soth Africa? So there's that, there's there's that component.

1464
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:37,439
Speaker 2: It's quite easy for us to look at that and go, oh, well,

1465
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:39,880
Speaker 2: that rhymes with all of the colonial crimes that we've

1466
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 2: been complicit.

1467
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: And we can compartmentalize it. We understand.

1468
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 2: You know, rich white guy in suit with bombs bad,

1469
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 2: poor black person in rubble you know, a brown person

1470
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:53,599
Speaker 2: in rubble good. That's simple, and that when we get

1471
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:55,759
Speaker 2: to Africa it's much more complicated. Hang on, they're all black,

1472
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:57,759
Speaker 2: they're all fighting each other, but they're sort of saving

1473
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 2: China going into into Africa. Why don't we talking about

1474
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:01,679
Speaker 2: that manipulation that process?

1475
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, good question.

1476
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 2: I mean the other thing, the second thing that I

1477
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 2: was about to point to is the way that social

1478
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 2: media algorithms work and the way that people with vested

1479
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:13,360
Speaker 2: interests in this are able to rig social media. Like,

1480
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:17,679
Speaker 2: let me just make one point here. You remember during

1481
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 2: when ISIS was a big thing in the War on Terror,

1482
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:25,120
Speaker 2: and you know, Syria was collapsing and they so there

1483
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:27,600
Speaker 2: was the first thing I remember going viral was the

1484
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 2: beheading of the Wall Street journal journalist Daniel Pearl beheaded

1485
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 2: live online. Then they and they started getting good, jee

1486
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:40,799
Speaker 2: hardists at understanding social media, much better than clumsy governments

1487
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 2: like Israel's government and the United States, you know, where

1488
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 2: everything has to go through some marketing department or whatever.

1489
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 2: And this came to the sort of apotheosis of this.

1490
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:54,360
Speaker 2: The ultimate incarnation that I can remember was those downed

1491
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 2: American pilots that they dressed up in orange jumpsuits. This

1492
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 2: is really ingenious. They would capture an American pilot. And

1493
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 2: this was a time when Guantanamo Bay was very controversial

1494
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 2: and there were inmates, you know, who were alleged jihadists

1495
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 2: who were dressed in orange jumpsuits at GITMO. They ordered online.

1496
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 2: ISIS ordered orange jumpsuits, dressed up the American pilots in them,

1497
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 2: locked them in cages in the desert, sprayed them with

1498
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 2: petrol and ignited them and we watched American pilots burning

1499
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:31,160
Speaker 2: in cages in the desert dressed up as Guantanamo Bay detainees.

1500
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 2: That's ingenious and evil and like, that's villainous, but really

1501
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 2: shrewd right as far as manipulating public opinion. It suddenly

1502
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 2: makes Americans go, holy hell, is there a comparison between

1503
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:49,439
Speaker 2: what they're doing what we're doing in Guantanamo Bay?

1504
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: Like how sav who are these people? Like?

1505
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 2: It's it's shocking. And there are deep connections between ISIS

1506
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 2: and Hamas and Hezbollah and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. They

1507
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:04,280
Speaker 2: talk to each other sometimes these are the same people.

1508
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 2: They go back and forth, like, so, why are we

1509
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,799
Speaker 2: focused a lot on Gaza? It's not entirely an accident.

1510
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 2: Every image that comes out of Gaza is tacitly approved

1511
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:21,799
Speaker 2: by a ji hardest terrorist group, that is the government

1512
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:27,360
Speaker 2: of Gaza, which has deep ties to ISIS style, you know,

1513
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 2: and a lot of sort of DNA and experience from

1514
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:31,679
Speaker 2: jihadiest groups.

1515
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 1: You know.

1516
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 2: Some people say, oh, well, they are not approving every article,

1517
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:37,799
Speaker 2: every image that comes out of Gaza. You can't dismiss

1518
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 2: all of the images that come out of Gaza. I'm

1519
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 2: not saying all the images are manufactured, what of you know,

1520
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:44,559
Speaker 2: the atrocity is there. What I'm saying is if there

1521
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:47,680
Speaker 2: was an image coming out of Gaza that showed the

1522
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 2: world that it's not quite as bad everywhere in Gaza

1523
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:54,760
Speaker 2: and that maybe the Israelis are taking some care with

1524
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:57,639
Speaker 2: some people, or that there are letter drops from aeroplanes

1525
01:18:57,640 --> 01:18:59,599
Speaker 2: which there have been, or draw knocks to make sure

1526
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 2: that the civilians are out of the building. How long

1527
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 2: do you think that citizen journalist would last at the

1528
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 2: hands of Commas if they if that material was getting out.

1529
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 2: So it's not that everything's fake, but it's that everything's

1530
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 2: one sided, right, and they're much better at playing that

1531
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 2: game of manipulating global opinion than the Israelis are.

1532
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 1: There's a terrible at it.

1533
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a something people should understand is there's

1534
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 2: actually quite a long standing Jewish philosophy that you don't

1535
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 2: explain yourself to other people, They're never gonna understand. It's

1536
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:33,720
Speaker 2: this kind of paranoid Jewish thing of like, you know what,

1537
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:36,320
Speaker 2: don't waste your breath, Like they're going to say they

1538
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 2: give a shit about you, and then when when it

1539
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 2: comes to crunch time, they're going to turn their backs

1540
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 2: on you. And they're not going to allow the boats

1541
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 2: full of Jewish refugees after the Holocaust to come and

1542
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:45,680
Speaker 2: land in America anyway, And you're going to have to

1543
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 2: go back and you'll all be gassed. Spare yourself the hassle,

1544
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:53,599
Speaker 2: Just go and bomb me round like pathetic marketing. Yeah,

1545
01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 2: terrible marketing, terrible at marketing. They're obstinate people like and

1546
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:00,679
Speaker 2: it's so easy Israel, you know, they're just like, they're

1547
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:01,559
Speaker 2: clueless about it.

1548
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:02,599
Speaker 1: So why do we care.

1549
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:04,200
Speaker 2: So much about Garzara? And we don't care about the

1550
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 2: Chinese in Africa? A. We don't see anything on on

1551
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 2: screens about the Chinese in Africa, So it's not marketed. Yeah,

1552
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 2: it's not marketed. B The Africans aren't any good. I mean,

1553
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 2: there's nobody with a vested interest to make that a

1554
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 2: big issue, right, there's no equivalent of the Mullas in

1555
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 2: Tehran or you know, the leaders of Casbolo who want

1556
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:23,760
Speaker 2: to make that an issue. And three it's complicated and

1557
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:26,040
Speaker 2: difficult for us to understand. And it's difficult. We wouldn't

1558
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:28,200
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time hovering over a video of

1559
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 2: that if it came up on as an Instagram reel

1560
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:32,680
Speaker 2: would be like, wait, who's who are they? What are

1561
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 2: they doing? Maybe they like it doesn't fit into that

1562
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:39,160
Speaker 2: neat template. So I think it's a it's a it's

1563
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:43,040
Speaker 2: a sort of perfect storm. It's like the perfect media

1564
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:46,600
Speaker 2: story for people who aren't terribly well informed about the

1565
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 2: issue to feel passionate and virtuous about.

1566
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's been a for me.

1567
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:57,120
Speaker 3: I haven't said much today because so I'm apart from

1568
01:20:57,120 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 3: having unbelievable talent sitting here, if you're in a cycle

1569
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 3: of this whole region, and I think this is a

1570
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 3: perfect explanation of at an intellectual level of the arguments,

1571
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,600
Speaker 3: arguments I'm saying in plural, not one if everyone and

1572
01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 3: against just the arguments. And I'd say to anybody listening

1573
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:16,799
Speaker 3: to this today, thank you for listening. But I'd say, well, equally,

1574
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 3: get onto Josh's podcast Uncomfortable Conversations, because just go through

1575
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 3: the episodes and find something in there that might suit you.

1576
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 1: Because this is the sort of stuff that we here

1577
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 1: in Australia.

1578
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:32,880
Speaker 3: We've got to resist being pushed by the traditional media

1579
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:33,839
Speaker 3: to take sides.

1580
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, and there's a lot of partisanship in the

1581
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:38,559
Speaker 2: mainstream press, not just.

1582
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 3: By the way on what's going on there on over there,

1583
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:42,680
Speaker 3: but in relation to all these things that we've been

1584
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,759
Speaker 3: trying to be divided on everything. Yeah, you know, and

1585
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:49,120
Speaker 3: we didn't get tired to talk about Trump and or Maske,

1586
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:49,559
Speaker 3: et cetera.

1587
01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 1: But that maybe we live that for another day. Yeah,

1588
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: that'd be great.

1589
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:55,280
Speaker 2: And I should say, since you're directing people to uncomfortable conversations,

1590
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 2: if you if you're interested specifically in this subject and

1591
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 2: you want to hear me in real time with how

1592
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,280
Speaker 2: I felt in the aftermath of October seventh. Then in

1593
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,000
Speaker 2: December of twenty thirteen, I did like an hour and

1594
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 2: a half long monologue which was like one of the

1595
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:14,960
Speaker 2: most passionate and heartfelt and I think articulate ways that

1596
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:17,599
Speaker 2: I've ever done of trying to flesh through a complicated issue.

1597
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:18,840
Speaker 1: Date again data It was.

1598
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:20,840
Speaker 2: In December of twenty thirteen, and it was called why

1599
01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 2: Jews Are Literally Nazis. Well, I had wanted to do

1600
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:27,920
Speaker 2: a train headline, I think my own headline. Then I

1601
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 2: wanted to name half the episodes why Jews are literally

1602
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 2: Nazis and the other one why Muslims are literally terrorists.

1603
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 2: But you would get the same episode, but I couldn't

1604
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:39,920
Speaker 2: figure out technologically how to release the same episode. But

1605
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:42,800
Speaker 2: just to show people how binary and stupid we were

1606
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,000
Speaker 2: all being, and how you click on one because you

1607
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 2: want because that reinforces your belief. But Jews aren't Nazis

1608
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:49,120
Speaker 2: and Muslims aren't terrorists.

1609
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: We're all people. Wow, that's amazing. I'm going to go

1610
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,599
Speaker 1: back to listen to that myself. Thanks good, Thank yoush.

1611
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 1: Great to be here.