WEBVTT - “Truth is bloody confronting”: Jacinta Price Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.240 Welcome back to part two of my chat with Senator 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.440 just since a Price. We've been talking with Senator Price 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.560 about a whole range of things and getting a deeper 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.600 understanding of Indigenous related matters in this country and who 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.720 she is as a person. So welcome back. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:01.240 Thank you. 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:03.920 As I said in part one, I'm trying to find 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.959 easy questions for you to answer, but you've put yourself 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.280 up there in a position where give me the hard one. Yeah, 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.280 I don't reckon you're going to get too many easy ones, 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:17.640 but we are finishing off in part one. I'm going 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.959 to ask you another question. If things go your way 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.240 in the next federal election that is coming up this year, 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.520 I believe, and you become the federal Indigenous Affairs minister, 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.560 big question here, what positive impact do you think you're 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:35.680 going to have for Aboriginal people in this country? 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:40.680 That is a big question. H Well, I think we 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:45.839 need to. My aim would be to lift our expectations. 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.440 I believe in order to be successful, we absolutely need 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.880 to be able to do that. What positive things? As 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.280 I said, I feel like there is there's freedom in 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.920 repetonsibility and being able to stand on our own two feet, 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:10.320 but that also comes with accountability. And I've always I've 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.480 always believed that we've got the structures in place to 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.120 support vulnerable people. We just need to make sure that 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:23.040 they're working effectively. So my other aim is to look 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.359 very closely at where the dollars are being spent, as 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:32.959 I said, across you know, Indigenous affairs, and to identify 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.720 where it is being effective, to identify where there needs 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:43.160 to be better accountability, to identify even when perhaps we 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.320 need to apply penalties so that you know, things like 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:53.040 fraud doesn't occur or occurs less because that comes with 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:59.280 the whole accountability measure. But empowerment, I believe, you know, 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:04.040 a government less government in people's lives is better than 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.360 more government, which is a coalition, which is a value 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.400 of those of us from the coalition. So if we 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:17.000 can see that we're investing, where we're producing outcomes, where 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:22.200 we can actually provide an environment for more opportunity toward 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:30.720 economic independence and economic empowerment, then these are absolutely the 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.519 sorts of things that I would look to establish more 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:43.280 firmly within Indigenous affairs. And again my priority would be 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:50.160 really identifying and understanding more closely who are more marginalized are, 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.200 And that's across the board. You know, I don't deny 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:58.200 that there are marginalized Indigenous people living in our cities, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.840 and they would be part of that priority. But I'm 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.600 also acutely aware of the fact that, and because of 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.400 research that I've done previously, is that much of our 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.640 most marginalized, who sit behind right behind the ape all 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.719 are those whose first language is not English, who live 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:21.320 in experience the highest rates of DV in our country. 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:27.000 And I mean my mother was a woman whose first 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.440 language is not English. English like a third language to 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.520 her and education was for her was her ticket to 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:38.400 freedom in her life, and that to me is an 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:43.719 absolute priority. And I know there's an argument around bilingual education, 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.320 particularly for those who aren't English as first language speakers, 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:53.320 but I don't think we should be implementing bilingual if 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.760 it is detrimental to kids learning English in order for 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:01.240 them to survive and thrive in a modern Australia. I 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:05.920 think it can work hand in hand, but ultimately the 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.679 priority for me is to ensure that kids are getting 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:15.120 their education they need to succeed in life, and I 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.599 think our education curriculum needs to be reformed in that regard. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.080 Mind you, that is working hand in hand with my 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:27.080 colleague Sarah Henderson, who you know, if we win government 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:32.080 is likely to be the Education Minister as well. So 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.119 you know, it's taking a look at all of those 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.120 things and understanding where the successes lie, where we can 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.320 continue to invest in, if not bolster, and understanding where 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.039 the failures exist and to ensure that we're not repeating 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:46.799 those failures. 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.680 Okay, and you mentioned then you use the example of bilingual. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:55.240 Can cultural heritage still be maintained in economic development? Can 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:56.000 they co exist? 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.680 Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, let's face it, you know, when 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.239 it's come to the migrant community, many of the members 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.160 of the migrant community, they learn predominantly their culture and 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.880 their language at home and they come to school and 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.080 share those sorts of things. But they are able to 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.920 lead successful lives and that's what I want to see 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:20.400 a curve for Indigenous Australians. But merging, you know, culture 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:27.599 and employment and economic development can absolutely go hand in hand. 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.800 You know, I don't see why it shouldn't, and you 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.560 know we're seeing that as well. There are many businesses 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.960 that incorporate, you know, their culture and the arts sector. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.240 I've had a history of working in the art so 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.200 I as a previously worked as assistant curator in our 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.000 al alou And Galleries in Alice Springs. I've worked at 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.560 the Museum and Art Gallery of the Northern Territory in 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.880 Darwin and been responsible for curating exhibitions across the board, 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.720 whether it's the Telstra Art Award or whether it's our 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:01.880 Desert mob Art Ward and the Yeah that the visual 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.600 arts seen for Indigenous Australians has always been a significant 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.400 place for economic empowerment for Indigenous Australians and that's incorporating 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.480 culture in that. You know, tourism is a great example 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.280 of being able to do that as well. Where that 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.080 can be done. Yeah, you know, you don't have to 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:20.240 discount one for the other. 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.080 Okay, So it's not sort of we're just going to 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:27.080 change completely abolish the culture, and then we got that's. 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.360 No, no, no, we're not. There's no abolishing of culture. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.840 Culture is important, you know, when it comes to those 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.440 living under customer law and remote communities, I firmly believe 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.080 in positive cultural reform in order to improve living standards. 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:48.120 Okay. You talked also about the B and dollar industry 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.040 that the money spent, and you said you want if 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.840 you got in the power and looking at where that 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:58.160 money spent, scrutinizing and making sure that it's going to 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:02.200 the people that need the money. What just explain how 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.320 you would do that and en sure that money spent 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.840 on indigenous matters is being channeled in the right direction. Yeah. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.920 Again, it's identifying where the failures exist and not repeating them, 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.800 and identifying where the successes are so they can be 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.640 invested in more appropriately in some circumstances. There are some 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:26.240 organizations that are struggling but doing a remarkable job in 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:31.240 providing outcomes. So you know, it's taking a fine tooth 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:37.440 comb to understand that landscape more closely, because why would 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.720 we want to continue to invest in something that isn't 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:46.520 working for example? And I guess understanding where something might 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:52.280 be struggling, with appropriate reforms in place, they could then 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.000 provide the appropriate outcome that start to produce outcomes as well. 0:08:56.040 --> 0:09:02.240 It's looking at it holistically in that regard and governance. 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:07.000 I think governance is a huge area that needs to 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.920 be looked at more broadly. Uh. And the way that 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:15.079 some organizations exist under things like the CATSI Act and 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:20.600 whether the cats the Act is providing an environment that 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.640 encourages good governance or whether it needs you could so 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.360 fit and proper persons is sort of identified as you know, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.440 those who can participate in leadership positions on boards and 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:38.640 that sort of thing. But you know, is that is 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:43.120 that description enough? Do we need to state that? For example, 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:47.079 you know, like I've been calling out recently, those there's 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.040 been men who have been have a history of DV 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:56.439 perpetration on sitting as chair people and significant organizations, do 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:02.880 we stipulate more prominently that that shouldn't be allowed, that 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:11.000 people who have had significant violent criminal history should in 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.959 fact be exempt from having the opportunity to sit in 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.520 leadership positions. Things like that I think are really important 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:20.400 at looking at going forward. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.440 And that what you're saying there doesn't have to be 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:27.120 race based either in any organization. If someone look, I'm 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.800 a big believer in redemption. I believe people need the 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.440 second chance. But there's certain things that don't align with 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.040 the values of a position of power, and if they've 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.160 made those mistakes, well, that's part of the forfeiture. 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:44.280 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, But I do feel as though there 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.640 is a lowered level of expectations within the Indigenous affairs 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.120 space where those sorts of things would not be tolerated 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.880 outside of that, but are tolerated within the Indigenous affairs space, 0:10:55.920 --> 0:11:00.160 which is why I would seek to lift those standards. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.960 Look through the questions, there's no easy questions with you, 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.800 welcome to country, acknowledgment of the country. What's your thoughts 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.000 on welcome to country and the acknowledgment of the country. 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:18.480 So okay, when it comes to the recent announcements, in 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.080 terms of what we've identified the spend has been in 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.719 terms of Welcome to Country in Parliament. I think it's 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:30.439 it's it's well to me growing up in a traditional 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:37.600 cultural setting. It's it's a reinvention. I don't know what 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.679 it's supposed to achieve, and I don't believe that in 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.880 when it comes to the delivery of tax payers dollars 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.640 for outcomes, that's spending half a million dollars a term 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.240 actually a bit more than that, because I think the 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.280 Office of Defat has spent about one hundred k on 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:01.480 Welcome to Country that that money can be better spent. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.200 And I think in these circumstances it should be used 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.720 for significant occasions. If we're going to maintain it, because 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:13.040 now it's something that's established, then it should be used 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:18.559 for much more important events. But I don't know. I 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.720 don't I don't think it is necessary. If people feel 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:31.320 strongly about wanting to put that forward, then why take 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.160 an income from it. I guess yeah, I mean we 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.960 being I just struggle with cultural reinventions if you like 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:44.440 having grown up in a traditional cultural concepts, because in 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.360 traditional terms, if you're going into somebody's country, well then 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.160 you'd light a fire and you demonstrate that you're on 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.280 your way into that person's country to pass through that country. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:13:04.080 We're not necessarily living those that life anymore, and we're 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.400 part of a country that involves a whole raft of 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:15.240 Australians and so and I think it's important that we 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:20.840 move forward as a country together without separating us along 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.840 racial or cultural terms. And I just feel like it's 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:32.280 in many ways it's become a virtue signaling task for 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.880 some individuals and become a throwaway thing for others, and become, 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.680 you know, for those who want to virtue signal, we 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.480 don't really know what their true intentions are. They could 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:48.120 stand before us and acknowledge, but failing behind the scenes, 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:53.840 or are you know, using Aboriginal people behind the scenes 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.360 at the same time. And I just don't think in 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.719 the grand scheme of things and empowering and moving indigenous 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.359 and our most marginalized people forward that it is a priority. 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.959 Certainly for me, it isn't a priority for me in 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.840 this space. And in many ways, I guess when it 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.440 comes to traditional cultural elements, there are elements of that 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:21.160 culture that I've been trying to break free from that 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.920 my mother's been trying to break free from that. We 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.960 shouldn't have to be beholdened to something because it is 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.680 considered culture. There are many things in Western culture that 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.480 we say, hey, you know what, I don't want to 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:36.080 be I don't want to be part of that. I 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.360 don't want to participate in that or whatever. Freedom of choice. 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:40.800 We live in a Western democracy. 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.840 Okay, I just put account of you with the Welcome 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:45.960 to Country, and I take on board the stuff that 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.640 you say, and I agree with it in part. I've 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.000 watched Welcome the countries or been involved in an acknowledgment 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:59.080 to countries, and sometimes they hit the mark perfectly. Sometimes 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.840 i'm by what it's done for me personally. I say, personally, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:05.960 I can't speak just like you can't speak for all 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.760 Aboriginal people, I can't speak for all white fellows. But 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.640 it's given me a sense of it's made me aware 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.440 of your culture in part. And I take on board 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.360 what you're saying. Well, it's not necessarily the traditions that 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:24.040 you understood, but my schooling was we're talking about Captain 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.360 Cook discovered this country and can you believe the turned 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.120 up and there was no one here, and so that 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.160 was the history. I was fed, and then to have 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.720 this welcome to country when it's done right, and that 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.480 for the right type of event. You can't have a 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.840 welcome to country every time you walk past someone on 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.600 the street. It did sort of make me just a 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.360 little bit aware and reflect on what the history of 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.040 this country has been. So I think there was some 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:56.000 education there. So, you know, from my point of view, 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.800 I'm happy to see that the right at the right 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.200 event significant event. I get a little bit confused when 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.400 you have a HR meeting at work and someone doesn't 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.560 welcome the country and I'm thinking, what is this about? 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.720 So I know that's you coming out and saying that 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:14.160 would polarize the people. 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.400 Yeah, look, I have no doubt that it polarizes people. 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.360 And I also know that there are some Indigenous people 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.360 that come to me to say, look, they feel they 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.080 cringe when it occurs, and they feel uncomfortable about that. 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.520 They don't want to be singled out as the Indigenous 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.080 person in the room, like pay my respects to all 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.040 Indigenous people in the room. You know, it's like, why, 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.360 we're just just a person, We're just people like everybody else. 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.600 And then sometimes some welcome to countries say and everybody else. 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:48.480 So well that's everybody anyway, you know. And you know, 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.320 and I know some young people who feel a little 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.600 bit uncomfortable, like they just want to get on with 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.800 just being a student with everybody else, without their racial 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.400 identity being a matter of folks in the classroom and 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.920 those sorts of things. So you know, there are nuanced 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.560 views to this, and that's what we don't hear enough of. 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.119 And if you have a different perspective, then you should 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.879 be able to have that perspective as well. Look in 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.679 terms of our history, my dad was a history teacher, 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.720 you know, my mother was an educator as well. She's 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:24.800 a school teacher and history is so important for us 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.439 all and as a country. I don't think we have 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:33.920 necessarily done our best in terms of teaching Australians our history, 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.159 and we do need to learn the good, the bad, 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.120 the ugly in order to understand I think how far 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.080 forward we've come together as a country to appreciate that 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.840 as well. I don't think we need to look at 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:53.040 it as though, you know, individuals in our history as 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.119 are they complete, you know, bastards, and therefore we should 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.960 you know, I mean we have to learn from it, Yes, 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:05.040 Hitler was a bastard. But we learn from the horrors 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.959 of what occurred there so as not to repeat it. 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.400 You know, we don't. We don't hold all Germans accountable 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.400 for what occurred. And you know, in the world wars, 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.919 So we shouldn't subject our kids these days to guilt 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:25.720 politics in that regard. You know, a little white kid 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:30.560 born in this country shouldn't be shouldn't have to feel 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.760 guilty for being a white kid in this country. A 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.560 little Aboriginal kid in this country shouldn't have to feel 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.800 like they are a victim without agency and are powerless 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.840 to be whatever they want to be when they grow 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:48.480 up either in this country. But and you know, history 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.600 and the way we we we you know, our education 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.480 system is and the way we viewer one another and 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.040 accept one another is all a part of that. Absolutely. 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.960 You know, we talk about in our country, we had 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.760 the last sanction massacre which occurred in nineteen twenty eight 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.720 and my grandfather was a young and at the time, 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.280 and so he was a survivor of that massacre. And 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.840 we know the stories around that that surrounded that, and 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:21.360 you know how it all began and who was involved 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.680 in killing our family, and we held a seventy five 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.280 year commemorative service for that some years ago now, But 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.240 in that we invited the descendants of those who'd killed 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.959 our family to that to say, look, we recognize that 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.240 there was these were really tough times in our country's 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.199 history and it really wasn't that long ago. But we 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.160 also don't hold you personally responsible for the actions of 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:50.320 your grandfather. You know, we are together as one as 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.520 Australians now together and let's walk this path together. And 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.960 that to me was an act of forgiveness that took 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.960 place which I don't believe, which I believe we need 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.160 more of in order to progress forward as a country. 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.800 You know, we we we you know, we have experienced 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:13.040 the apology we have experienced. Sorry, So when do we 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.679 as Indigenous Australians say, okay, well we forgive because forgiveness 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:21.680 is also for the forgiver. It is it is about setting. 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:27.360 It can be totally empowering and and it can lead 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:33.040 to yeah that freedom, freedom of of of of individ 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:39.320 individuality if you like. And so there's so much, there's 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.000 so much involved in all of that that I think 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:46.720 sometimes we look too simply at the circumstances and luck 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.600 I said, yes, let's make sure that our schools are 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.960 teaching our children our history, you know, in more broadly, 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:00.119 but not in a way to weaponize it against anybody 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.920 or toward anything other than understanding who we are as 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.719 a country and how not to repeat the failures of 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.840 our past, and to understand just how far we've come 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:15.480 as a remarkable nation, where we've all contributed significantly, whether 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.240 weather from the first people's, whether we're from the migrant community, 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.800 whether you know my great great grandmother was an Irish 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.720 orphan who lost her parents in the Potato famine. She 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.919 married my great great great grandfather, who was dispossessed of 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:30.040 his land and brought here in chains as a convict 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:34.520 at the age of fourteen for breaking enter like these 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.199 are the human stories. We are all human. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.320 When you explain it that way, it makes sense. What 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.399 concerns me is that sometimes people and I hear people 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:47.919 and yeah, I call that racism because I was in 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.159 the cops and I call that racism, and there was 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.119 racism in the police. And hopefully it's getting better. I 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:55.639 don't know. I've been out for a while, but I 0:21:55.680 --> 0:22:00.320 saw it. But you have people that extreme views. The 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:02.919 reaction from an extreme view on the left becomes an 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.840 extreme view on the right, and i'd hear people go, well, 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.120 I didn't take your children, or you know, like that 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.399 type of commentary where you're saying you've met with the 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.600 people from the massacre and you forgave them and there 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.680 was some reconciliation in terms of the past history and 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:25.520 moving forward. I see that positive. But it's just when 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.320 I say I worry some of the comments or the 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:30.119 comments that you make, or the position and this is 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:34.920 stating the obvious where you've been. It allows people to 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.119 jump on board going okay. But she said it's okay 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.680 and runs that through and I'm sure that lean very 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:47.560 much on. Yeah. I felt for you with the referendum. 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:51.119 That was a tough time, a tough time in your life. 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.560 But it was almost people saying, well, this is an 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.480 Aboriginal saying I'm going to say no, oh, therefore it 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:57.840 might be all right. So there was a lot of 0:22:57.840 --> 0:22:58.720 pressure on you with. 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:03.600 Look and again, you know, I'm not just Aboriginal. My 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.120 dad's a white Feller and half my family white fellow 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:12.719 as well. But we're talking from a Yeah, Walbrian Celtic, 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:18.440 you get that's right. Yeah, and and and look, I've 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:20.800 never said it's okay to be racist. In fact, I'm 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:24.120 dead set against racism, always have been dead set against racism. 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:26.959 And people can take my views, and I don't have 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:32.240 control over how they react to my views, whether whether 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:36.920 they want to you know, suggest racist things on either 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:42.719 side of the debate as well. Like you know, that's 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:46.240 that's not what I'm aiming for. And I'm but I'm 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:49.360 not going to hide. I'm not going to hide evidence 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:51.280 or facts or anything like that. I think it's important 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:52.760 to lay it all on the table. I think it's 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:57.720 important for us to have respectful debate amongst one another 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:01.879 as well, so that we can because generally, look, you know, 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:05.680 when I do engage with you know, those Indigenous Australians 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:08.199 who don't agree with my position on things, or have 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.520 this perception of me because of the media or because 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:13.840 of what someone else says, or because they get a 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:17.880 snippet of what I've said without the whole what I've 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:21.560 said behind it all in greater context. When I do 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:26.800 have those engagements, the common thing that we have is 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:29.600 we want the same outcomes. We want the same thing. 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:32.840 We want to improve and better the lives of those 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:35.840 that we love. It's just how we get there that 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:37.960 might be a little bit different. And if we can 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:42.800 be more tolerant in the Indigenous community, you know, people 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:46.000 might feel like they can come forward and speak more 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:49.000 honestly and openly. But I know a lot of Indigenous 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:54.199 Australians who fear retribution. They see what comes at me 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:56.359 and they go, why would I want to put my 0:24:56.440 --> 0:25:01.760 head above the parapet But certainly all levels of racism 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.720 I disagree with, and I disagree with this notion that 0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:08.360 only white people can be racist, Like, as far as 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.359 I'm concerned, it's judging another person based on their racial 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:17.400 heritage negatively, that that is racism. And it's on all 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:22.720 sides of the fence. And and you know, when it 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:29.360 came to the Whole Voice debate, I was unpacking what 0:25:29.400 --> 0:25:35.240 the whole proposal means or doesn't mean, or you know, uncovering. 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:35.480 The lack of. 0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:40.600 Uh, you know, detail to it and information to it, 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:44.720 and basing my position on the fact that well, despite 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:48.280 this build up of bureaucracy that is supposed to drive 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:52.040 change for Indigenous Australians that has failed, why don't we 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:55.359 fix that instead of plank and entire new bureaucracy on 0:25:55.520 --> 0:26:00.240 top of this big mess that already exists. And again 0:26:00.320 --> 0:26:03.480