1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Senator 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: just since a Price. We've been talking with Senator Price 16 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: about a whole range of things and getting a deeper 17 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: understanding of Indigenous related matters in this country and who 18 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: she is as a person. So welcome back. 19 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: Thank you. 20 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: As I said in part one, I'm trying to find 21 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: easy questions for you to answer, but you've put yourself 22 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: up there in a position where give me the hard one. Yeah, 23 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: I don't reckon you're going to get too many easy ones, 24 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: but we are finishing off in part one. I'm going 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: to ask you another question. If things go your way 26 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: in the next federal election that is coming up this year, 27 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: I believe, and you become the federal Indigenous Affairs minister, 28 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: big question here, what positive impact do you think you're 29 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: going to have for Aboriginal people in this country? 30 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 2: That is a big question. H Well, I think we 31 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,839 Speaker 2: need to. My aim would be to lift our expectations. 32 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: I believe in order to be successful, we absolutely need 33 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: to be able to do that. What positive things? As 34 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: I said, I feel like there is there's freedom in 35 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: repetonsibility and being able to stand on our own two feet, 36 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: but that also comes with accountability. And I've always I've 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: always believed that we've got the structures in place to 38 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: support vulnerable people. We just need to make sure that 39 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: they're working effectively. So my other aim is to look 40 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: very closely at where the dollars are being spent, as 41 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 2: I said, across you know, Indigenous affairs, and to identify 42 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: where it is being effective, to identify where there needs 43 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: to be better accountability, to identify even when perhaps we 44 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: need to apply penalties so that you know, things like 45 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: fraud doesn't occur or occurs less because that comes with 46 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: the whole accountability measure. But empowerment, I believe, you know, 47 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: a government less government in people's lives is better than 48 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: more government, which is a coalition, which is a value 49 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: of those of us from the coalition. So if we 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: can see that we're investing, where we're producing outcomes, where 51 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: we can actually provide an environment for more opportunity toward 52 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: economic independence and economic empowerment, then these are absolutely the 53 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 2: sorts of things that I would look to establish more 54 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: firmly within Indigenous affairs. And again my priority would be 55 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: really identifying and understanding more closely who are more marginalized are, 56 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: And that's across the board. You know, I don't deny 57 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: that there are marginalized Indigenous people living in our cities, 58 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: and they would be part of that priority. But I'm 59 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: also acutely aware of the fact that, and because of 60 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: research that I've done previously, is that much of our 61 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: most marginalized, who sit behind right behind the ape all 62 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 2: are those whose first language is not English, who live 63 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: in experience the highest rates of DV in our country. 64 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: And I mean my mother was a woman whose first 65 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: language is not English. English like a third language to 66 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: her and education was for her was her ticket to 67 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: freedom in her life, and that to me is an 68 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: absolute priority. And I know there's an argument around bilingual education, 69 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: particularly for those who aren't English as first language speakers, 70 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: but I don't think we should be implementing bilingual if 71 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: it is detrimental to kids learning English in order for 72 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: them to survive and thrive in a modern Australia. I 73 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: think it can work hand in hand, but ultimately the 74 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 2: priority for me is to ensure that kids are getting 75 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: their education they need to succeed in life, and I 76 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: think our education curriculum needs to be reformed in that regard. 77 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: Mind you, that is working hand in hand with my 78 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: colleague Sarah Henderson, who you know, if we win government 79 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: is likely to be the Education Minister as well. So 80 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,119 Speaker 2: you know, it's taking a look at all of those 81 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: things and understanding where the successes lie, where we can 82 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: continue to invest in, if not bolster, and understanding where 83 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: the failures exist and to ensure that we're not repeating 84 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 2: those failures. 85 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: Okay, and you mentioned then you use the example of bilingual. 86 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: Can cultural heritage still be maintained in economic development? Can 87 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: they co exist? 88 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, let's face it, you know, when 89 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 2: it's come to the migrant community, many of the members 90 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: of the migrant community, they learn predominantly their culture and 91 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: their language at home and they come to school and 92 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: share those sorts of things. But they are able to 93 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: lead successful lives and that's what I want to see 94 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 2: a curve for Indigenous Australians. But merging, you know, culture 95 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 2: and employment and economic development can absolutely go hand in hand. 96 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: You know, I don't see why it shouldn't, and you 97 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: know we're seeing that as well. There are many businesses 98 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: that incorporate, you know, their culture and the arts sector. 99 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: I've had a history of working in the art so 100 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 2: I as a previously worked as assistant curator in our 101 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: al alou And Galleries in Alice Springs. I've worked at 102 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: the Museum and Art Gallery of the Northern Territory in 103 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: Darwin and been responsible for curating exhibitions across the board, 104 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: whether it's the Telstra Art Award or whether it's our 105 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: Desert mob Art Ward and the Yeah that the visual 106 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: arts seen for Indigenous Australians has always been a significant 107 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: place for economic empowerment for Indigenous Australians and that's incorporating 108 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: culture in that. You know, tourism is a great example 109 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: of being able to do that as well. Where that 110 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: can be done. Yeah, you know, you don't have to 111 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: discount one for the other. 112 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: Okay, So it's not sort of we're just going to 113 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: change completely abolish the culture, and then we got that's. 114 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: No, no, no, we're not. There's no abolishing of culture. 115 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: Culture is important, you know, when it comes to those 116 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: living under customer law and remote communities, I firmly believe 117 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: in positive cultural reform in order to improve living standards. 118 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: Okay. You talked also about the B and dollar industry 119 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: that the money spent, and you said you want if 120 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: you got in the power and looking at where that 121 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: money spent, scrutinizing and making sure that it's going to 122 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: the people that need the money. What just explain how 123 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: you would do that and en sure that money spent 124 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: on indigenous matters is being channeled in the right direction. Yeah. 125 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: Again, it's identifying where the failures exist and not repeating them, 126 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: and identifying where the successes are so they can be 127 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: invested in more appropriately in some circumstances. There are some 128 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: organizations that are struggling but doing a remarkable job in 129 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: providing outcomes. So you know, it's taking a fine tooth 130 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 2: comb to understand that landscape more closely, because why would 131 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: we want to continue to invest in something that isn't 132 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: working for example? And I guess understanding where something might 133 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: be struggling, with appropriate reforms in place, they could then 134 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: provide the appropriate outcome that start to produce outcomes as well. 135 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: It's looking at it holistically in that regard and governance. 136 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: I think governance is a huge area that needs to 137 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: be looked at more broadly. Uh. And the way that 138 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 2: some organizations exist under things like the CATSI Act and 139 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: whether the cats the Act is providing an environment that 140 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: encourages good governance or whether it needs you could so 141 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: fit and proper persons is sort of identified as you know, 142 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: those who can participate in leadership positions on boards and 143 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. But you know, is that is 144 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: that description enough? Do we need to state that? For example, 145 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 2: you know, like I've been calling out recently, those there's 146 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: been men who have been have a history of DV 147 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 2: perpetration on sitting as chair people and significant organizations, do 148 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: we stipulate more prominently that that shouldn't be allowed, that 149 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: people who have had significant violent criminal history should in 150 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 2: fact be exempt from having the opportunity to sit in 151 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: leadership positions. Things like that I think are really important 152 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: at looking at going forward. 153 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: And that what you're saying there doesn't have to be 154 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: race based either in any organization. If someone look, I'm 155 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: a big believer in redemption. I believe people need the 156 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: second chance. But there's certain things that don't align with 157 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: the values of a position of power, and if they've 158 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: made those mistakes, well, that's part of the forfeiture. 159 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, But I do feel as though there 160 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: is a lowered level of expectations within the Indigenous affairs 161 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 2: space where those sorts of things would not be tolerated 162 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: outside of that, but are tolerated within the Indigenous affairs space, 163 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 2: which is why I would seek to lift those standards. 164 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: Look through the questions, there's no easy questions with you, 165 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: welcome to country, acknowledgment of the country. What's your thoughts 166 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: on welcome to country and the acknowledgment of the country. 167 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: So okay, when it comes to the recent announcements, in 168 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: terms of what we've identified the spend has been in 169 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 2: terms of Welcome to Country in Parliament. I think it's 170 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 2: it's it's well to me growing up in a traditional 171 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: cultural setting. It's it's a reinvention. I don't know what 172 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: it's supposed to achieve, and I don't believe that in 173 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: when it comes to the delivery of tax payers dollars 174 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: for outcomes, that's spending half a million dollars a term 175 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: actually a bit more than that, because I think the 176 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: Office of Defat has spent about one hundred k on 177 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to Country that that money can be better spent. 178 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: And I think in these circumstances it should be used 179 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: for significant occasions. If we're going to maintain it, because 180 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: now it's something that's established, then it should be used 181 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: for much more important events. But I don't know. I 182 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: don't I don't think it is necessary. If people feel 183 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 2: strongly about wanting to put that forward, then why take 184 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: an income from it. I guess yeah, I mean we 185 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: being I just struggle with cultural reinventions if you like 186 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: having grown up in a traditional cultural concepts, because in 187 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: traditional terms, if you're going into somebody's country, well then 188 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: you'd light a fire and you demonstrate that you're on 189 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: your way into that person's country to pass through that country. 190 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: We're not necessarily living those that life anymore, and we're 191 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: part of a country that involves a whole raft of 192 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 2: Australians and so and I think it's important that we 193 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: move forward as a country together without separating us along 194 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 2: racial or cultural terms. And I just feel like it's 195 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: in many ways it's become a virtue signaling task for 196 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: some individuals and become a throwaway thing for others, and become, 197 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 2: you know, for those who want to virtue signal, we 198 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: don't really know what their true intentions are. They could 199 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: stand before us and acknowledge, but failing behind the scenes, 200 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: or are you know, using Aboriginal people behind the scenes 201 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 2: at the same time. And I just don't think in 202 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 2: the grand scheme of things and empowering and moving indigenous 203 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,359 Speaker 2: and our most marginalized people forward that it is a priority. 204 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: Certainly for me, it isn't a priority for me in 205 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: this space. And in many ways, I guess when it 206 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 2: comes to traditional cultural elements, there are elements of that 207 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: culture that I've been trying to break free from that 208 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: my mother's been trying to break free from that. We 209 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: shouldn't have to be beholdened to something because it is 210 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: considered culture. There are many things in Western culture that 211 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: we say, hey, you know what, I don't want to 212 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: be I don't want to be part of that. I 213 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: don't want to participate in that or whatever. Freedom of choice. 214 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: We live in a Western democracy. 215 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: Okay, I just put account of you with the Welcome 216 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: to Country, and I take on board the stuff that 217 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: you say, and I agree with it in part. I've 218 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: watched Welcome the countries or been involved in an acknowledgment 219 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: to countries, and sometimes they hit the mark perfectly. Sometimes 220 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: i'm by what it's done for me personally. I say, personally, 221 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: I can't speak just like you can't speak for all 222 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: Aboriginal people, I can't speak for all white fellows. But 223 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: it's given me a sense of it's made me aware 224 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: of your culture in part. And I take on board 225 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: what you're saying. Well, it's not necessarily the traditions that 226 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: you understood, but my schooling was we're talking about Captain 227 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: Cook discovered this country and can you believe the turned 228 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: up and there was no one here, and so that 229 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: was the history. I was fed, and then to have 230 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: this welcome to country when it's done right, and that 231 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: for the right type of event. You can't have a 232 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: welcome to country every time you walk past someone on 233 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: the street. It did sort of make me just a 234 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: little bit aware and reflect on what the history of 235 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: this country has been. So I think there was some 236 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: education there. So, you know, from my point of view, 237 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: I'm happy to see that the right at the right 238 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: event significant event. I get a little bit confused when 239 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: you have a HR meeting at work and someone doesn't 240 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: welcome the country and I'm thinking, what is this about? 241 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: So I know that's you coming out and saying that 242 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: would polarize the people. 243 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I have no doubt that it polarizes people. 244 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: And I also know that there are some Indigenous people 245 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: that come to me to say, look, they feel they 246 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: cringe when it occurs, and they feel uncomfortable about that. 247 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: They don't want to be singled out as the Indigenous 248 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: person in the room, like pay my respects to all 249 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: Indigenous people in the room. You know, it's like, why, 250 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: we're just just a person, We're just people like everybody else. 251 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: And then sometimes some welcome to countries say and everybody else. 252 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: So well that's everybody anyway, you know. And you know, 253 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: and I know some young people who feel a little 254 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: bit uncomfortable, like they just want to get on with 255 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: just being a student with everybody else, without their racial 256 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: identity being a matter of folks in the classroom and 257 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: those sorts of things. So you know, there are nuanced 258 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: views to this, and that's what we don't hear enough of. 259 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: And if you have a different perspective, then you should 260 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: be able to have that perspective as well. Look in 261 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 2: terms of our history, my dad was a history teacher, 262 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: you know, my mother was an educator as well. She's 263 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: a school teacher and history is so important for us 264 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 2: all and as a country. I don't think we have 265 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: necessarily done our best in terms of teaching Australians our history, 266 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: and we do need to learn the good, the bad, 267 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 2: the ugly in order to understand I think how far 268 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: forward we've come together as a country to appreciate that 269 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: as well. I don't think we need to look at 270 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: it as though, you know, individuals in our history as 271 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 2: are they complete, you know, bastards, and therefore we should 272 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: you know, I mean we have to learn from it, Yes, 273 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: Hitler was a bastard. But we learn from the horrors 274 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 2: of what occurred there so as not to repeat it. 275 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 2: You know, we don't. We don't hold all Germans accountable 276 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 2: for what occurred. And you know, in the world wars, 277 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 2: So we shouldn't subject our kids these days to guilt 278 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: politics in that regard. You know, a little white kid 279 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: born in this country shouldn't be shouldn't have to feel 280 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: guilty for being a white kid in this country. A 281 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: little Aboriginal kid in this country shouldn't have to feel 282 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: like they are a victim without agency and are powerless 283 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: to be whatever they want to be when they grow 284 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: up either in this country. But and you know, history 285 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: and the way we we we you know, our education 286 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: system is and the way we viewer one another and 287 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: accept one another is all a part of that. Absolutely. 288 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: You know, we talk about in our country, we had 289 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: the last sanction massacre which occurred in nineteen twenty eight 290 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: and my grandfather was a young and at the time, 291 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: and so he was a survivor of that massacre. And 292 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: we know the stories around that that surrounded that, and 293 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 2: you know how it all began and who was involved 294 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: in killing our family, and we held a seventy five 295 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: year commemorative service for that some years ago now, But 296 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: in that we invited the descendants of those who'd killed 297 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 2: our family to that to say, look, we recognize that 298 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: there was these were really tough times in our country's 299 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 2: history and it really wasn't that long ago. But we 300 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: also don't hold you personally responsible for the actions of 301 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: your grandfather. You know, we are together as one as 302 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: Australians now together and let's walk this path together. And 303 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: that to me was an act of forgiveness that took 304 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: place which I don't believe, which I believe we need 305 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: more of in order to progress forward as a country. 306 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: You know, we we we you know, we have experienced 307 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: the apology we have experienced. Sorry, So when do we 308 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 2: as Indigenous Australians say, okay, well we forgive because forgiveness 309 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: is also for the forgiver. It is it is about setting. 310 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 2: It can be totally empowering and and it can lead 311 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: to yeah that freedom, freedom of of of of individ 312 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: individuality if you like. And so there's so much, there's 313 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: so much involved in all of that that I think 314 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: sometimes we look too simply at the circumstances and luck 315 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: I said, yes, let's make sure that our schools are 316 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: teaching our children our history, you know, in more broadly, 317 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 2: but not in a way to weaponize it against anybody 318 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 2: or toward anything other than understanding who we are as 319 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 2: a country and how not to repeat the failures of 320 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: our past, and to understand just how far we've come 321 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: as a remarkable nation, where we've all contributed significantly, whether 322 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: weather from the first people's, whether we're from the migrant community, 323 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: whether you know my great great grandmother was an Irish 324 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 2: orphan who lost her parents in the Potato famine. She 325 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: married my great great great grandfather, who was dispossessed of 326 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: his land and brought here in chains as a convict 327 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: at the age of fourteen for breaking enter like these 328 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 2: are the human stories. We are all human. 329 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: When you explain it that way, it makes sense. What 330 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: concerns me is that sometimes people and I hear people 331 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: and yeah, I call that racism because I was in 332 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: the cops and I call that racism, and there was 333 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: racism in the police. And hopefully it's getting better. I 334 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: don't know. I've been out for a while, but I 335 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: saw it. But you have people that extreme views. The 336 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: reaction from an extreme view on the left becomes an 337 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: extreme view on the right, and i'd hear people go, well, 338 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: I didn't take your children, or you know, like that 339 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: type of commentary where you're saying you've met with the 340 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: people from the massacre and you forgave them and there 341 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: was some reconciliation in terms of the past history and 342 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: moving forward. I see that positive. But it's just when 343 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: I say I worry some of the comments or the 344 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: comments that you make, or the position and this is 345 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: stating the obvious where you've been. It allows people to 346 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: jump on board going okay. But she said it's okay 347 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: and runs that through and I'm sure that lean very 348 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: much on. Yeah. I felt for you with the referendum. 349 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: That was a tough time, a tough time in your life. 350 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: But it was almost people saying, well, this is an 351 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: Aboriginal saying I'm going to say no, oh, therefore it 352 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: might be all right. So there was a lot of 353 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: pressure on you with. 354 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 2: Look and again, you know, I'm not just Aboriginal. My 355 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 2: dad's a white Feller and half my family white fellow 356 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 2: as well. But we're talking from a Yeah, Walbrian Celtic, 357 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 2: you get that's right. Yeah, and and and look, I've 358 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: never said it's okay to be racist. In fact, I'm 359 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 2: dead set against racism, always have been dead set against racism. 360 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,959 Speaker 2: And people can take my views, and I don't have 361 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: control over how they react to my views, whether whether 362 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: they want to you know, suggest racist things on either 363 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 2: side of the debate as well. Like you know, that's 364 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: that's not what I'm aiming for. And I'm but I'm 365 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 2: not going to hide. I'm not going to hide evidence 366 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: or facts or anything like that. I think it's important 367 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: to lay it all on the table. I think it's 368 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: important for us to have respectful debate amongst one another 369 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: as well, so that we can because generally, look, you know, 370 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 2: when I do engage with you know, those Indigenous Australians 371 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 2: who don't agree with my position on things, or have 372 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: this perception of me because of the media or because 373 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: of what someone else says, or because they get a 374 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: snippet of what I've said without the whole what I've 375 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: said behind it all in greater context. When I do 376 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: have those engagements, the common thing that we have is 377 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: we want the same outcomes. We want the same thing. 378 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: We want to improve and better the lives of those 379 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: that we love. It's just how we get there that 380 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: might be a little bit different. And if we can 381 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 2: be more tolerant in the Indigenous community, you know, people 382 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: might feel like they can come forward and speak more 383 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: honestly and openly. But I know a lot of Indigenous 384 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 2: Australians who fear retribution. They see what comes at me 385 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: and they go, why would I want to put my 386 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: head above the parapet But certainly all levels of racism 387 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 2: I disagree with, and I disagree with this notion that 388 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 2: only white people can be racist, Like, as far as 389 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: I'm concerned, it's judging another person based on their racial 390 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 2: heritage negatively, that that is racism. And it's on all 391 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: sides of the fence. And and you know, when it 392 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 2: came to the Whole Voice debate, I was unpacking what 393 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 2: the whole proposal means or doesn't mean, or you know, uncovering. 394 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: The lack of. 395 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: Uh, you know, detail to it and information to it, 396 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: and basing my position on the fact that well, despite 397 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: this build up of bureaucracy that is supposed to drive 398 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: change for Indigenous Australians that has failed, why don't we 399 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 2: fix that instead of plank and entire new bureaucracy on 400 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: top of this big mess that already exists. And again 401 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: my position is not about and a lot of people say, oh, 402 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 2: you took power away from Indigenous Australians. Well, you couldn't 403 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: tell me how this proposal was in fact going to 404 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: empower anybody. And why would I want to relegate three 405 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 2: percent of the population to an entity based on racial 406 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: heritage when we're all Australian striving for better outcomes for 407 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 2: us all. 408 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: Just wind back a little bit on what you said there. 409 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: When you have disagreements or with other members of the 410 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: indigenous community, but when you sit down they actually talk, 411 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: you want the same things, but you're going down to 412 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: a different, different path. I found the referendum it was 413 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: polarizing for the country. I don't know, and I've said 414 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: it here and I'm happy to say it. I vaded. Yes, 415 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: I thought it was something that wasn't and that it 416 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: changed things dramatically, But it was then acknowledgment of accepting 417 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: our past. Probably a very simplistic view, but I found 418 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: the discussions about that divided the country even further, which 419 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: really saddened me. Yeah, when you look back at it, 420 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: are you happy with the way it played out, well, it. 421 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: Got the result that I was fighting for, so that 422 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: I agree with you totally in that it divided our country, 423 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 2: which was the worst possible thing that could have happened 424 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: to us as a country and that we did not need. 425 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 2: And it took away focus from actually trying to address 426 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 2: the situation, you know, the circumstances on the ground. It 427 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 2: took a whole lot of resources, It took a whole 428 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: lot of attention away from that. And you know, again 429 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: going back to things that I say, it suggested that 430 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 2: things that I say gives a whole past to those 431 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: who want to say racist things. Well, you know, telling 432 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 2: people that because they wanted to vote no, or you know, 433 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 2: planned to vote know that they are racists is just 434 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: as horrible I think, you know, when like as I said, 435 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 2: I believe that and Australians I think, have demonstrated over 436 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: and again the incredible goodwill toward Indigenous Australians and want 437 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 2: for better outcomes for us. All Australians want that overwhelmingly. 438 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: Many feel a sense of responsibility, but often they can't 439 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: do anything because it's actually out of their hands to 440 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: do anything. I stand by my position because I didn't 441 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: want to empower bureaucracy. I am fighting to empower the 442 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 2: little people. But I truly believe we have the mechanisms 443 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 2: and the structures to do so. We just need to 444 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: utilize them a hell of a lot better than what 445 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 2: we actually do when we need to fix those up. 446 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: And you know, that's what people need to understand. And 447 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: for those you know, Indigenous Australians that don't agree with me, 448 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: that potentially hate me for whatever reason you want to 449 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: hate me for, you have to understand that this is 450 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: my absolute aim, always has been my aim, because of 451 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: the death and destruction and the family members that I've 452 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: buried over the years. And the reason I'm here is 453 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: because of that, is because I want to work to 454 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: bring about those changes. 455 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: You talk about local solutions and breaking it down, the 456 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: local solutions, and you're worried about more bureaucracy coming over 457 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: the top. The irony is if you're speaking to people 458 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: that are in the polar opposite to you, they're probably 459 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: saying saying the same thing about local solutions to it, 460 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: but also about representation in parliament. Now you might sit 461 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: here and go, well, hey, look here I am, but yeah, 462 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: the complexities of it. 463 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: Just it's so many complexities. 464 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: Did it have to be that complicated? Couldn't we have 465 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: just said yeah, yes and let's all feel better? Or 466 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: did Why did they get. 467 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: So complicated unintended consequences of simply just saying yes because 468 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: it felt good, or you know, not understanding the detail 469 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: behind it. And we're you know, this is our nation's 470 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: constitution we're talking about as well. You know the fact 471 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: that I have huge problems with the fact that there 472 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: is a level of acceptance of individuals that many of 473 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: us know have got horrible histories, you know, criminal histories, 474 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: DV histories, sitting in positions of power, the potential to 475 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 2: enable them into our constitution, the ramifications of that I 476 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 2: did not want to risk. I did not want to risk. Ultimately, 477 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 2: you know, there's a there's a there's a there's a 478 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 2: person who's been an elder in Victoria who has recently 479 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: been in prison for his conduct which many Aboriginal Australians 480 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: knew for years was occurring, and it's only just caught 481 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: up with him. How many more of those individuals do 482 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 2: we know are out there? Let's face it, in our 483 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: Obiginal communities, we know who these people are who will 484 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: either get away with their conduct or it'll take just 485 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: as long for that to be brought to justice until 486 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: we can clean up our backyard. There's no way that 487 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: I could have supported a yes vote. 488 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: Okay, I didn't honestly think I was going to sway 489 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: sway we talk about. Yeah, if it goes the way, 490 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: you hope that you might be re elected. With the 491 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: election and the Indigenous Affairs minister, can you see a 492 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: way of bringing everyone together? Because when I talk to 493 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: you and when I talk to people at the opposite needs, 494 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: you both, as we identify it, you're both after the 495 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: same thing, it's just a different part. 496 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: Well, look, if that's the ultimate focus, I don't see 497 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 2: how we can't work together toward that. You know, I'm 498 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: prepared to sit down with anybody and to have those 499 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 2: conversations respectfully, of course, you know, to work out and 500 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: work a way forward, because I know that everyone wants 501 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: to contribute toward improvement, and if that's the ultimate aim, 502 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: then what else would stop an individual from wanting to 503 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: work toward that together? But also I also am very 504 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: much interested in hearing from those individuals that have been 505 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: perhaps ignored or sidelined or have been voiceless because I 506 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: guess like in many circumstances, in these situations, there's often 507 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 2: in organizations or whatever, there's a click. 508 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: They can be a. 509 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: Click, you know, there's there's little communities within communities, and 510 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 2: whether people are prepared to allow others into those you know, 511 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: is up to them obviously, But there have been those 512 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 2: who have been sidelined, and I'm very much interested in 513 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: hearing from them as well. 514 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well I think you can't. You can't offer 515 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: up any more than to give people the opportunity to 516 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: express their express their views. I wanted to ask some 517 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: some fun questions, just to have a bit of fun 518 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,719 Speaker 1: because it's so heavy what we're talking about. But just 519 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: your downtime, Yes, you had ambitions or you were you 520 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: actually lived the life of a rock star at some stage, 521 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: your music, you work in TV, tell us a bit 522 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: about that. What rocks your boat? 523 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: What rocks my boat? Playing board games with my kids 524 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: at home? That totally you know, you know, no, it does, 525 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 2: though my kids will tell you I'm very competitive. You're 526 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 2: not cheating it absolutely not, no, and I'll pull up 527 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 2: anyone who is. But look, no, like music has been 528 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,919 Speaker 2: a huge part of my life all my life, as 529 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: far back as I can remember, you know, taking to 530 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: the stage and singing as part of the primary school choir, 531 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 2: learning violin as a youngster and playing that for several years. 532 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: Music's always just resonated with me and my self expression. 533 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 2: And then becoming part of a hip hop group as 534 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: a teenager. 535 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: And. 536 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: You know, I guess I performed well into my thirties 537 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 2: as well in terms of hip hop, and it was 538 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 2: a great outlet, like it was always got together with 539 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 2: with you know, the well couple of them my cousins, 540 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 2: and they're practically cousins anyway, right, But we wanted to 541 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 2: demonstrate a group of Indigenous kids who were doing something 542 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 2: positive in our community, because they are often headlines out 543 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 2: youth crime and that sort of thing. We're like saying, 544 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 2: look here we are. We're engaged with our community. This 545 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 2: is something we love to do. And we also wanted 546 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: to encourage our peers to consider doing something else then 547 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 2: get into trouble, you know, use music as a form 548 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: of expression. 549 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: I think role models are so good and we hear 550 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: a lot of it with sport, but if you could 551 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: get in the music in any field that role models 552 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: indigenous role models and all that. But yeah, yeah, I've 553 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: seen the smile on your face of a clip when you're 554 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: up at Tamworth Music Festival. Yes, yes, and I can. 555 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 2: See on stage and my husband drags me up occasionally. 556 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: Okay, what life could have been, But you've managed to 557 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: find your way in the politics. Look, we've got to 558 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: wrap it up. But I have enjoyed, enjoyed the chat. 559 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: There's interesting views on what you've got and explaining things 560 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: that I'm the person that sits on the outside trying 561 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: to work out what's going on that's complicated the world 562 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: that you know you're operating in. I respect people that 563 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: passionate about things, and your passion certainly comes across. So 564 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: all the all the best for the future, and let's 565 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 1: hope we can make this place a better place. 566 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and thank you for having me. And yeah, I 567 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 2: hope your listeners can have a little bit more of 568 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: an understanding of the human I am. But yeah, my my, 569 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 2: my door is always open. 570 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: Thank you.