WEBVTT - Someone Knew Something

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<v Speaker 1>A Poche Production.

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<v Speaker 2>With the inquest into my uncle Dez's disappearance now completed,

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<v Speaker 2>we thought that might be it. We've had a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of closure after 42 years of wondering what might

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<v Speaker 2>have happened to him. It wasn't really answers we got,

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<v Speaker 2>but it certainly helped to hear the words of the

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<v Speaker 2>coroner say things like, she thought that maybe the police

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<v Speaker 2>took too long and didn't have enough resources on the

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<v Speaker 2>case back in 1979. She also thought the fact the

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<v Speaker 2>lack of investigation back in those days probably has left

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<v Speaker 2>this case wide open with little chance of ever knowing

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what happened. Although the coroner found that my uncle

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<v Speaker 2>was probably dead, She couldn't 100% confirm it, nor could

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<v Speaker 2>she tell us how she thinks it may have happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Head back to previous episodes to hear how the story

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<v Speaker 2>unfolds so far. You might have heard in the last

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<v Speaker 2>episode that as my family was walking out of the inquest,

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<v Speaker 2>they met up with Pam and Jodie. They are mother

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<v Speaker 2>and daughter, and they knew Des really well. on the

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<v Speaker 2>phone to my brother after the case. He mentioned he

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<v Speaker 2>had an interesting chat with them both.

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<v Speaker 3>She and her mum were there and they both said

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<v Speaker 3>the same thing that I think that's happened, is that

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<v Speaker 3>he was murdered and possibly put under the road and

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<v Speaker 3>covered up. And according to her, she always thought it

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<v Speaker 3>was someone from the main road that may have been

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<v Speaker 3>involved in it.

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<v Speaker 2>I decided I'd give them both a call and try

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<v Speaker 2>to understand not just what they think, but why they

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<v Speaker 2>think it.

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<v Speaker 4>Hello?

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, is that Pam?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, Pam. It's Jay. I'm Desmond Carr's nephew.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, you're his nephew. I wondered why.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you know him?

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<v Speaker 4>No.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember him as a kid. I was only about

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<v Speaker 2>nine when he went missing.

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<v Speaker 4>Memories would be mixed up then.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they are a little. I just remember him being

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<v Speaker 2>really tall and really.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, he was about six foot tall. Yep. Lanky, very lanky.

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<v Speaker 4>He had a wicked sense of humour. He'd pull your

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<v Speaker 4>leg as long as he could.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems like Pam knew Des well and her partner Colin...

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<v Speaker 2>And Des were really good mates.

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<v Speaker 4>I think I told them at the inquest, Colin and

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<v Speaker 4>I went over east to drop the kids off for

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<v Speaker 4>a holiday or pick them up. And my elderly neighbour

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<v Speaker 4>next door wrote me a letter and said, you'll have

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<v Speaker 4>to come home quick. That Desi has moved two ladies

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<v Speaker 4>of the night in and he's taking money for them.

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<v Speaker 4>He was too.

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<v Speaker 2>He was cheeky then, clearly.

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<v Speaker 4>She said, it's all right, though. She said, because I

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<v Speaker 4>sneaked over onto your porch and took the agitator out

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<v Speaker 4>of your washing machine. So they can't stay long. So

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<v Speaker 4>that's what he was like. He had the devil in him.

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<v Speaker 2>And Colin and Des were as thick as thieves, were they?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, thicker. Absolutely. But there was a big age difference

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<v Speaker 4>between them, but they were really good friends.

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<v Speaker 2>And so how was Colin? How did Colin react when

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<v Speaker 2>he found out Des had gone missing?

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<v Speaker 4>We made all the inquiries we could, and we asked

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<v Speaker 4>at the police station, which was fairly hopeless at that time.

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<v Speaker 4>It's hard to describe what the northwest was, but it

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<v Speaker 4>was a fair bit wild and woolly. We always heard

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<v Speaker 4>that he'd been in a fight with the Yiddish love

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<v Speaker 4>and I always thought that that fight might have continued

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<v Speaker 4>and I always have believed he's under the tarmac.

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<v Speaker 2>So what leads you to believe that he would be

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<v Speaker 2>under the road?

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<v Speaker 4>The fact that the guy he had the fight with

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<v Speaker 4>Des wasn't a fighter, so it would have to be

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<v Speaker 4>something fairly nasty. I would like to know the name

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<v Speaker 4>of that person.

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<v Speaker 2>And this Yugoslav man, did Des know him well?

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>That I don't know.

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<v Speaker 4>I just feel that because he's never been seen again,

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<v Speaker 4>because I don't believe What I heard at the inquest,

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<v Speaker 4>these people that saw him with various people, he was

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<v Speaker 4>drunk and he was out of his mind and that's wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>It's wrong.

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<v Speaker 4>You can't lose someone like that because he was on

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<v Speaker 4>a roller because it's so easy if you can find

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<v Speaker 4>a way of going up at midnight and disposing of

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<v Speaker 4>the body and shifting the roller along a bit. It's

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<v Speaker 4>quite possible because the roads between Port Hedland and Broome

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<v Speaker 4>have got long, long straights. You know, maybe two miles straight,

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<v Speaker 4>three miles straight. So if you did something at night,

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<v Speaker 4>you'd just have to wait for the end of the

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<v Speaker 4>headlights coming or going, continue with what you were doing.

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<v Speaker 2>Did Colin think the same thing, that Des had been murdered? Yes.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, he did. He said he would have come back

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<v Speaker 4>to us.

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<v Speaker 2>My uncle went missing in 1979. When was the last

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<v Speaker 2>time you saw him before you heard of his disappearance?

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<v Speaker 4>We saw him in Broome. I can't tell you the year.

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<v Speaker 4>Probably two years. We saw him in Broome at the

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<v Speaker 4>Shinzo Matsuri Festival once. And he came down and stayed

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<v Speaker 4>a weekend a couple of times.

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<v Speaker 2>And had you spoken to him on the phone or

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<v Speaker 2>anything like that?

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<v Speaker 4>No, there were no phones in those days. And there

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<v Speaker 4>would have been a phone at the camp, but I

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<v Speaker 4>imagine it would be one phone. And it was a

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<v Speaker 4>different world. You could hide things if you wanted to.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think someone knows the secret up that way

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<v Speaker 2>about what happened to him?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, somebody knows, yes. How they've managed to keep it

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<v Speaker 4>a secret, I don't know, unless they were involved.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you sat in the inquest, you were at

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<v Speaker 2>the back of the courtroom on the inquest day when

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<v Speaker 2>the coroner handed down her findings. What were your thoughts?

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<v Speaker 3>Sad.

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<v Speaker 4>I was hoping to get them all out of it.

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<v Speaker 4>It was a sad day. But I can understand that

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<v Speaker 4>the magistrates felt she couldn't come to any other decision

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<v Speaker 4>simply because nobody knows. But I believe that she's under

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<v Speaker 4>the tarmac.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you and have you told police your theory?

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<v Speaker 5>No.

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<v Speaker 4>No, not under the tarmac, I haven't. They're not interested.

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<v Speaker 4>They never were interested. They just said, you know, it

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<v Speaker 4>was a fight. I used to ring the... Every year

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<v Speaker 4>on Homelessness Week, Missing Persons Week, I used to ring

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<v Speaker 4>Broome and Port Hedland to remind them just to see

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<v Speaker 4>if there was anything on the case, but there never was.

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<v Speaker 2>Pam is now 83, and like everyone that's come forward

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<v Speaker 2>on this podcast, I don't want to judge what they

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<v Speaker 2>have to say or what they think. I also don't

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<v Speaker 2>believe that it gives us false hope or anything like that. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just about getting perspective. And who knows, one small

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<v Speaker 2>bit of information could lead to something larger. Pam's daughter

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<v Speaker 2>Jodie was in the background of that call I made.

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<v Speaker 2>Jodie was living with her mum and Colin at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>She was 16, just shy of 17. And she also

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<v Speaker 2>remembers Des really well.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Pam Gangel's daughter. Yeah, Pam's daughter.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you remember of Des's?

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<v Speaker 1>He was a funny bugger. He was just a lovely man.

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing was too much trouble. Being a teenager, you're always

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<v Speaker 1>a bit horrible, but he was always very gentle around

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<v Speaker 1>me and around my brother because mum had come from

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<v Speaker 1>a rough few years earlier, a rough.

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<v Speaker 4>Marriage, and we were a bit wary of men.

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<v Speaker 1>But no, he was always a pleasure to be around.

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<v Speaker 2>And so your mum had a memory of seeing Des

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<v Speaker 2>maybe a couple of years before he went missing. What's

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<v Speaker 2>your memory of the last time you saw him?

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<v Speaker 1>He was actually asleep, drunk in the chair with his

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<v Speaker 1>stubby still in his lap. And I went to remove

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<v Speaker 1>the stubby and he said, no, no, no, it's all right,

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<v Speaker 1>I've got it. And he woke up and he finished

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<v Speaker 1>his beer and toddled off to bed. And because as

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<v Speaker 1>a teenager I was out with my friends, I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>sort of see that much of them, plus they were working.

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<v Speaker 4>And then I went to New Zealand for a while

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<v Speaker 4>and came back to live with my birth father for

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<v Speaker 4>a while. and came back, and Desi had gone up

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<v Speaker 4>north to work. And I was up there during Shinsu,

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<v Speaker 4>so family, friends, daughters went up. They were in their 20s.

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<v Speaker 1>They were nurses from Sydney. And both mothers got together

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<v Speaker 1>and decided, oh, it would be lovely for Jo to

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<v Speaker 1>go up with the girls, which I don't think they appreciated.

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<v Speaker 1>But when Des went missing, I was up in Broome

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<v Speaker 1>at the Shinsu Matsuri with the girls, and I was

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<v Speaker 1>underage drinking at the Roebuck. And the barmaid said, the

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<v Speaker 1>cops are looking for you. So I tried to do

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<v Speaker 1>a bolt out the back, thinking it was for underage drinking.

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<v Speaker 1>And anyway, they caught me, so to speak. And they

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<v Speaker 1>said that Des had gone missing. And I knew what

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<v Speaker 1>he looked like. So they took me all around Broome

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<v Speaker 1>because the township during Shinzu went from 2,000 to 20,000

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<v Speaker 1>over that week period to see if I could spot

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<v Speaker 1>him in the crowds.

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<v Speaker 4>But no, I couldn't, so.

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<v Speaker 2>Hsinchu is the festival of the pearl. Back then, it

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<v Speaker 2>was the event the whole town was involved in in Broome.

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<v Speaker 2>These days it runs throughout late August and September. Broome

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<v Speaker 2>is affectionately known as the Pearl of the North. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the home of the South Sea Pearl, among the largest

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<v Speaker 2>and most coveted commercially harvested pearls in the world.

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<v Speaker 4>Lots of... On the main oval, there'd be lots of

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<v Speaker 4>stalls and entertainment during the day, on the main day.

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<v Speaker 4>And then people.

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<v Speaker 1>Just sort of stayed around for the duration.

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<v Speaker 4>Of the week. And then it would go back to...

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<v Speaker 4>It was just one big party, basically.

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<v Speaker 1>And a lot of the people were.

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<v Speaker 4>traveled for it quite a quite a big distance how.

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<v Speaker 2>Many days after des had gone missing were the police

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<v Speaker 2>looking for you to ask you what he looked.

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<v Speaker 1>Like probably it would have been two or three days

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<v Speaker 1>i think okay i'm not sure that they told me

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<v Speaker 1>it was just i was only 16 you know thinking

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<v Speaker 1>oh crikey i'm in trouble here so i sort of

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't saying too much but and they didn't say too

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<v Speaker 1>much they probably didn't want to throw too much.

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<v Speaker 2>On me and where did they take.

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<v Speaker 1>You At night, I used to have festivals at night

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<v Speaker 1>all around the Oval, around the pubs. And there was

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<v Speaker 1>only probably one pub that Des would have drunk at

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<v Speaker 1>or two would have been the Conti, the Continental and

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<v Speaker 1>the Roebuck. And I had been at the Roebuck and

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<v Speaker 1>he would have spotted me and I would have spotted him.

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<v Speaker 1>Even in amongst the crowd, it sort of overflowed onto

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<v Speaker 1>the street. And the Conti, I didn't see him there.

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<v Speaker 1>And that was sort of more of an upmarket pub

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<v Speaker 1>compared to the Roebuck. At the Roebuck, if you had...

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<v Speaker 1>If you had one song, it was only because you'd

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<v Speaker 1>found it and you were able to get in.

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess the police took you to these pubs

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<v Speaker 2>because it's most likely that that would be where Des

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<v Speaker 2>would end up, right? He didn't mind a beer, all three.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't mind a beer at all.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And he'd had a drink. He wasn't a nasty drunk

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<v Speaker 1>or anything like that. He'd just sort of go to sleep,

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<v Speaker 1>smile a lot and go to sleep.

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<v Speaker 2>Would he be the sort of drunk that would get

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<v Speaker 2>into fights, would you think?

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<v Speaker 1>Possibly in a pub. If it was a blokey type scene, yes.

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<v Speaker 1>But I never saw that within the house environment. He

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<v Speaker 1>had a bit of a temper on him.

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<v Speaker 2>Did he?

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<v Speaker 1>Not a bad temper, but he didn't suffer fools gladly.

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<v Speaker 2>So your mum's theory that you talked to about my

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<v Speaker 2>brother and Michelle when you walked out of the courthouse.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:14:01.871 --> 0:14:02.971
<v Speaker 2>Tell me about that theory.

0:14:04.791 --> 0:14:10.491
<v Speaker 1>Well, only because we talked about it afterwards. after Des

0:14:10.531 --> 0:14:15.881
<v Speaker 1>had gone missing. And at the inquest, we sort of

0:14:15.941 --> 0:14:18.461
<v Speaker 1>heard how the chair fell off the table, which would

0:14:18.501 --> 0:14:20.841
<v Speaker 1>have been Des's answer to, yeah, I did get into

0:14:20.861 --> 0:14:22.161
<v Speaker 1>a blue and he hit me with the chair, but

0:14:22.201 --> 0:14:24.021
<v Speaker 1>we don't want the police brought into it. It was

0:14:24.061 --> 0:14:28.271
<v Speaker 1>just a blue. If he had a head injury, that's

0:14:28.291 --> 0:14:29.271
<v Speaker 1>what it would have been from.

0:14:30.211 --> 0:14:33.831
<v Speaker 2>Tell me the theory that you and your family think

0:14:33.951 --> 0:14:35.091
<v Speaker 2>happened to my Uncle Des.

0:14:37.051 --> 0:14:37.281
<v Speaker 1>Well.

0:14:39.231 --> 0:14:42.031
<v Speaker 4>I can't see Des just wandering off into the bush,

0:14:42.091 --> 0:14:43.271
<v Speaker 4>even disorientated.

0:14:44.091 --> 0:14:46.631
<v Speaker 1>He was too smart for that. And if he's going

0:14:46.651 --> 0:14:49.481
<v Speaker 1>to have a pee, he's just going to pee beside

0:14:49.501 --> 0:14:52.721
<v Speaker 1>the grader or the tractor, the roller. He's not going

0:14:52.741 --> 0:14:55.061
<v Speaker 1>to stagger off for a bit of privacy because there

0:14:55.101 --> 0:14:59.721
<v Speaker 1>was really no one else around, obviously. So that just

0:14:59.741 --> 0:15:05.771
<v Speaker 1>strikes me as being a bit unusual. Yeah, and the

0:15:05.811 --> 0:15:09.571
<v Speaker 1>fact that Bangui Station said that they'd seen him a

0:15:09.621 --> 0:15:13.201
<v Speaker 1>small fire off in the distance and they never went

0:15:13.241 --> 0:15:16.041
<v Speaker 1>and checked it. Maybe they thought it was aboriginals having

0:15:16.081 --> 0:15:19.981
<v Speaker 1>a camp or maybe that was like a regular occurrence

0:15:20.021 --> 0:15:22.241
<v Speaker 1>but they said they noticed a small fire and Desi

0:15:22.261 --> 0:15:24.911
<v Speaker 1>would have lit one if he was in strife to

0:15:25.511 --> 0:15:33.051
<v Speaker 1>try as a signal. So that's something I don't understand

0:15:33.111 --> 0:15:34.211
<v Speaker 1>but knowing.

0:15:33.991 --> 0:15:38.661
<v Speaker 5>That the variety of people that were up there And

0:15:38.721 --> 0:15:41.341
<v Speaker 5>doing road works and up in Broome around that time,

0:15:41.701 --> 0:15:44.981
<v Speaker 5>my thought is maybe Des somehow got himself attached to

0:15:45.001 --> 0:15:48.521
<v Speaker 5>a lady who was attached to someone else.

0:15:49.381 --> 0:15:52.031
<v Speaker 4>And that's maybe where the blue started. Was it Michelle

0:15:52.131 --> 0:15:57.971
<v Speaker 4>showed me a message about what this gentleman had said.

0:15:59.371 --> 0:16:02.111
<v Speaker 4>He believes that he was stopped by a driver who

0:16:02.151 --> 0:16:03.871
<v Speaker 4>knew he was working on the role of that day.

0:16:04.631 --> 0:16:07.241
<v Speaker 1>And whether or not they got into a blue then,

0:16:07.261 --> 0:16:10.661
<v Speaker 1>and if It may not have been to kill him.

0:16:11.391 --> 0:16:13.731
<v Speaker 1>It might have just been to settle the dispute, but

0:16:14.251 --> 0:16:19.491
<v Speaker 1>he has been killed in that incident inadvertently, and they've

0:16:19.511 --> 0:16:21.771
<v Speaker 1>got to get rid of the body. So that is

0:16:21.891 --> 0:16:25.811
<v Speaker 1>what could have possibly happened, and I would not be surprised.

0:16:26.691 --> 0:16:30.751
<v Speaker 2>And has your family thought this for the last 42 years?

0:16:31.591 --> 0:16:31.831
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

0:16:32.551 --> 0:16:34.341
<v Speaker 2>Have you given police this theory at all?

0:16:34.761 --> 0:16:36.561
<v Speaker 4>Well, I left home at about 18, so.

0:16:38.631 --> 0:16:42.191
<v Speaker 4>I was never asked. I was never asked. I know

0:16:42.251 --> 0:16:45.581
<v Speaker 4>Mum would keep me up to date every year because

0:16:45.641 --> 0:16:49.961
<v Speaker 4>I moved interstate. And we always sort of said, have

0:16:49.981 --> 0:16:52.801
<v Speaker 4>you heard anything? No, nothing's ever come about. And it

0:16:52.841 --> 0:16:59.161
<v Speaker 4>wasn't until Michelle contacted me two years ago, maybe, that

0:16:59.201 --> 0:16:59.921
<v Speaker 4>I realised he.

0:16:59.841 --> 0:17:04.850
<v Speaker 1>Had family, more family. And I just said, keep me posted.

0:17:04.911 --> 0:17:07.631
<v Speaker 1>And then it's led up to this. I just think

0:17:07.691 --> 0:17:13.150
<v Speaker 1>that someone... As the coroner said, something like that, if

0:17:13.211 --> 0:17:15.431
<v Speaker 1>it was foul play.

0:17:16.431 --> 0:17:20.561
<v Speaker 4>Someone would have broken, hypothetically, at some stage and said

0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.101
<v Speaker 4>something to someone after all that time thinking nothing would

0:17:24.140 --> 0:17:29.340
<v Speaker 4>come of it and someone might know something. But the

0:17:29.360 --> 0:17:33.541
<v Speaker 4>coroner said, well, no one's come forth. And I would

0:17:33.580 --> 0:17:38.821
<v Speaker 4>have thought at some stage someone would have broken so

0:17:38.860 --> 0:17:41.301
<v Speaker 4>someone does know someone would have broken the silence either

0:17:41.340 --> 0:17:44.261
<v Speaker 4>bragged to someone oh yeah look you know I've killed

0:17:44.301 --> 0:17:46.901
<v Speaker 4>someone or it's what people tend to do when they

0:17:46.921 --> 0:17:51.421
<v Speaker 4>drink their lips get a bit looser and I would

0:17:51.461 --> 0:17:54.771
<v Speaker 4>like hope that someone eventually when they hear the podcast

0:17:54.811 --> 0:17:58.450
<v Speaker 4>sort of goes oh crikey I remember blah blah and

0:17:58.511 --> 0:18:02.791
<v Speaker 4>comes forward that would be that would be good you

0:18:02.811 --> 0:18:04.631
<v Speaker 4>know Desi was a good man and he didn't need

0:18:04.731 --> 0:18:07.610
<v Speaker 4>to end up with this sort of history.

0:18:09.701 --> 0:18:14.460
<v Speaker 2>And that's exactly what happened. Someone did know something. And

0:18:14.501 --> 0:18:19.590
<v Speaker 2>they found me on Facebook and decided, after 42 years,

0:18:19.650 --> 0:18:22.051
<v Speaker 2>to share what they think happened.

0:18:22.991 --> 0:18:23.350
<v Speaker 3>Hello.

0:18:23.971 --> 0:18:24.791
<v Speaker 2>Hello, is that Robert?

0:18:25.711 --> 0:18:26.271
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it is.

0:18:26.991 --> 0:18:30.340
<v Speaker 2>Robert, my name's Jay. You reached out to me via Facebook.

0:18:30.580 --> 0:18:31.380
<v Speaker 3>Oh, yeah, yeah.

0:18:32.100 --> 0:18:33.600
<v Speaker 2>How are you going?

0:18:33.620 --> 0:18:33.700
<v Speaker 4>Good.

0:18:34.171 --> 0:18:36.280
<v Speaker 2>You said in your message that you sent me that

0:18:36.340 --> 0:18:39.661
<v Speaker 2>you might know something about my Uncle Des and his disappearance.

0:18:39.981 --> 0:18:42.080
<v Speaker 3>Well, I knew him when I was up that way.

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.160
<v Speaker 3>I worked up there on a cattle station at that time.

0:18:46.330 --> 0:18:50.370
<v Speaker 5>And after I left the Kimberleys and came back to Perth,

0:18:50.471 --> 0:18:51.670
<v Speaker 5>I bumped into.

0:18:51.350 --> 0:18:56.251
<v Speaker 3>Him in the city one day. And I said g'day

0:18:56.271 --> 0:18:58.640
<v Speaker 3>to him and he was acting really queer and.

0:19:00.380 --> 0:19:03.981
<v Speaker 4>Pretended not to know me and, you know, like, oh, no, he.

0:19:03.801 --> 0:19:05.781
<v Speaker 3>Said it wasn't me. I haven't been up there.

0:19:06.561 --> 0:19:07.101
<v Speaker 4>But it was him.

0:19:07.181 --> 0:19:09.481
<v Speaker 3>I was only bloody on the piss with him a

0:19:09.541 --> 0:19:10.941
<v Speaker 3>couple of months prior.

0:19:11.761 --> 0:19:16.791
<v Speaker 2>Is it possible you saw him maybe before he went missing? No, no.

0:19:17.991 --> 0:19:19.211
<v Speaker 3>I wouldn't have known him then.

0:19:20.071 --> 0:19:23.471
<v Speaker 2>That in the next episode of The Disappearance of Des.

0:19:25.830 --> 0:19:28.571
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0:19:29.321 --> 0:19:32.360
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