WEBVTT - My father Kevin Part 1 | 13 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:09.440 She loved my father. I hate what he's done. I 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:14.360 hate the pain he's caused so many people. But knowing 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:19.200 he's going to hear my boys say these things, I 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:25.239 know he'd be listening. I wish you'd understand how hurt 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:29.080 I am and how much I wish he'd made different decisions, 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:32.360 and how that if he could do all this and 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.080 still have my love, like it wouldn't have taken much 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:43.519 just to be a decent human being, and he'd help 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.960 me and my kids in his life and we would 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:53.760 have worshiped him. She'd just confess and let this will 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:57.440 be done, and lot it. Let it stop affecting me. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.480 I was seventeen and this has chased me my entire 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:07.840 adult life. It affects my kids, It affects every single 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.959 aspect of my life. And I knew this podcast would 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:17.040 happen one day, and I just wish he would give 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:24.040 Christian Anne the justice and the truth that they deserve. 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.280 I'm Ashley Hanson and you're listening to episode thirteen of 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:37.520 Dear Rochelle, a podcast by True Crime Australia. This is 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.240 the untold story of Rochelle Charles, a twenty three year 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.480 old who was brutally murdered. Her killer has never been caught. 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:57.640 This is the first of a two part interview with 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:02.280 Kevin Stephen Corell's daughter as Now, she has some pretty 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.640 strong beliefs about her father, particularly in relation to historic 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:11.320 allegations for which she's been found not guilty. Jazz also 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:16.000 believes her dad murdered Rochelle. These are only Jazz's opinions 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.240 about her dad. She's come to these views through a 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.480 combination of her own interactions with her father and witnessing 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.800 his relationships with other people, including both of his ex wives, 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.840 the first being her mother. This of course, doesn't make 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.480 it proof of Kevin's guilt of any offenses. These are 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.720 only Jazz's opinions, and in fact, you will hear Jazz 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:43.000 say she doesn't have any evidence that her dad committed 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.560 these crimes, but we think it's important for you to 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.799 hear her story. By the way, Jazz is her nickname 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.200 and for privacy reasons when not using her full name. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:59.200 Kevin Carrell strenuously denies any involvement in Michelle's murder. 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:00.760 And has never been charged. 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.440 He has willingly participated in three records of interview with 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:09.880 police and provided his DNA to investigators. A coroner presiding 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.040 over Rochelle's inquest made an open finding. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.280 How would you describe your relationship with your father now. 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:27.960 We've been estranged about four or five years. There's been 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:33.640 minimal contact between us. There was health concerns where we 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:38.240 exchanged a few text messages that were civil, and I 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:45.560 had concerns about him. But yeah, it's you know, I 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.160 think after this his release, I don't think we'll ever 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:55.800 speak again. And I'm okay with that. I don't. I 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.400 feel like I'm hurting him right now, and it's not 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:05.720 what I want to do. It's just I feel like 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.280 I have to. I have to help with this because 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:14.280 it's been twenty four years of them not knowing. And 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.920 I'm sure my dad would understand. I actually I lost 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.760 my oldest daughter in two thousand and nine under very 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.960 different circumstances. But if there was someone responsible, which I 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.200 wasn't as medical reason, but if there was someone responsible 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.039 and they debated justice for a minute, I would be 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:38.160 smashing the world up. And it's just it's not okay 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:45.680 that and Christie are still fighting for justice. I think 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:50.279 it's so wrong, and I would hope that my dad 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.200 with the grief we experienced in the loss of my daughter, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.320 would understand that that's not okay for that family to 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.680 still be going through this if someone needs to pay. 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:07.280 Rochelle died violently, and I can't imagine being in their 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.080 shoes how that must feel. You know, there's no one 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.440 to blame for my daughter's death, but it's so unjust. 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:18.560 It's so unfair, and to have someone that you know 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:25.200 cause that horrificing to Rachelle. It's just so wrong that 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:26.880 they've walked free for twenty four years. 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.600 What's prompted you to speak out now? 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.520 I feel like I have some insight when I hear 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:38.040 certain things being said about my dad, some very true. 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:39.680 I think most of the things that have been said 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:44.280 about him by people who know him, I believe them wholeheartedly. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.279 The best chance at getting him is for people to 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.239 really know who he is, and I think I'm probably 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.560 one of the best people to explain who he really is. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:56.520 A few of. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.480 Those years he was protected in people's belief that wouldn't 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.960 have it in his life if he did this, and 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:07.560 I feel guilt for that. I also want it known 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:09.040 that I don't defend him. 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.200 Anymore Before we get into that. Who are you? What 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:13.840 would you like people to know about you? 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:14.680 I don't know. 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:16.680 I feel like a very boring person Outside of this. 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:24.200 I'm a mum of five amazing children. I work in 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:30.839 community services, and I'm very passionate about a lot of things, 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.880 human rights and feminism and yeah, I think my dad, 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:37.839 being who he is, has shaped a lot of who 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:38.320 I am. 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:39.800 How is your dad shaped you? 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.839 I don't think there's anyone who's been more influential who 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:50.000 I am as a person. I think you can trace 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.520 every single detail about who I am. Every fiber of 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.800 my being comes from him. Whether it was the things 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.599 I didn't like I became staunchly against. For example, my 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:05.760 daddy is very He's racist and homophobic and things like that, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:11.640 so I am staunchly against those things. Being that my 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:20.480 dad can't seem to tell the truth. It's very important 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:25.400 to me. Honesty and accountability are probably the biggest things 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.160 for me, and that's how I've raised my children. Accountability 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.560 is so important that you know, I never told my 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.240 kids that Santa was real, or the Easter money was real, 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.440 or anything like that, because I wanted my kids to 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.360 know that they could always believe every single word I 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.960 ever said to them, which is something I've never had 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:49.400 with my dad. Everything he ever said, good and bad, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.440 I never knew what was real and what was true. 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.679 Even the good things like him saying he was proud 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.040 of me. I didn't know if that was real. I 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.760 didn't know if his love was real. And I think 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:06.360 the only way that you can achieve that with your 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.520 kids is to always be honest. So I didn't want 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.800 them to ever think I'm lied about this And yeah, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.800 so it's it's shaped who I am, especially as a 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.840 parent and the things that are important to me. I 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.880 can't ever undo the harm my dad has caused his 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.800 many victims, But I think because I couldn't speak out 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:33.120 for so long, this is why it's shaped my life. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.560 To you, who is Kevin Correll? Do you love him 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:38.240 like a father? 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:40.920 So many of my friends were so envious of my 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.760 relationship with my dad. Most people who met my dad 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:44.360 love my dad. 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:45.719 You know he was. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:49.160 Yeah. 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.520 I often had a lot of friends saying they wish 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.520 they had a relationship with their father's the way I 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.640 did with mine. Yet underneath I knew that he was 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:04.240 more start too. I've never been able to reconcile those feelings, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.360 and I feel a lot of guilt and shane that 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.960 I've contributed it to him having twenty four years of 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:20.080 good memories he didn't deserve to have. There was a 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:24.319 long time, For a long time, I tried to have 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:30.000 hope that he didn't do these things. Deep down, I knew. 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:34.800 I've always known, not in any way that I have evidence, 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.360 I just I knew he did this, So I knew 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:42.440 he's done a lot of other things. But there was 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:46.760 a hope, as his daughter, this is someone who experienced 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.079 his love. There was a hope that it was all 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.120 wrong and everyone had it wrong. 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.280 But I don't know that's that's. 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:56.800 A fairy tale. 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:01.200 You said that you'd seen the evil Father is capable 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.480 of Do you have any memories of that? 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:11.400 I remember him hurting my stepmotherw do you remember that 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.439 my mother had told me that he never hit her. 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:21.440 I'd witnessed my mum being terrified of him my entire life. 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.800 She was terrified. He's always scared her. He's still scares 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:32.640 her now. I remember being at a party and there 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:34.920 was an accusation that she was talking to someone that 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.959 my father wasn't happy about, and we were told to 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.440 get in the car, and as we were in the car, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:48.040 I remember that she was banging on the car window 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.000 and she had blood all over her face and she's crying, 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.000 and he got in the car and left her there. 0:10:55.720 --> 0:11:00.679 Outside of that, there was a violent explosions. Ever, I 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:04.360 sensed people's fear. I also saw a lot of people 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.880 be compliant with his lies. And that's the one thing 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.880 that it wasn't ever taught. He never told me that 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.480 I had to go along with anything. He did the 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.640 same thing to my kids. No one ever said you've 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.520 got to go along with lies, but everybody did. And 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:24.199 when you see everyone compliant to someone, you know, it's 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.840 natural that we will call out a lie when we 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:31.199 hear it. But with my dad, everyone falls into line. 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.320 And I don't know how, And I think that's only 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:40.079 that dynamic is only possible when you're fearful. I can't 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:45.760 explain how it came to be that dynamic. He wasn't 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:52.480 controlling in the sense that anyone else would describe controlling. 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.760 But I know when you weren't compliant or you didn't 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.920 act a certain way, he punished you in a way 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:03.480 that you couldn't speak to me because you just look crazy. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.720 It was sinister, it was calculated. It maybe long after 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:13.160 the fact, but there was a passive, aggressive way in 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.480 which you'd be punished for stepping out of line. As 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.920 I said, he never raised his hand, he never raised 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:23.480 his voice. He's a very calm father, but definitely would 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.360 not describe him as an agro father. He was very calm, 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.680 very loving unless she displeased him. 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.079 Tell me about the good times from your childhood. 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.080 I don't know why, but the good times are harder 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.440 to talk about than the bad times. I think because 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:50.240 in this environment, telling people he's evil is easier for me, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:56.480 because I want to support Rochelle. Talking about how much 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.000 I love my dad and the good things that most 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:05.920 people wouldn't know feels horrible, and I've lost the ability 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:12.959 to feel good about cherish memories I had with my dad. 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:18.240 He was my dad's probably the funniest man I've ever known, 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:24.439 and I hate saying that, and I don't want people 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:30.000 to think he's a good person who deserves to be defended, 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:37.360 because I defended him for so long, and but he 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:41.920 so funny. He was so much fun, you know. We 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.240 always joked that he was the fifth Wiggle and he 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:52.760 was always running around playing games, making up games. He 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.360 spoiled us right, and we went there once a fortnight 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.480 and he had two days and he would f every 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:06.800 last minute with Funt. I loved going to my dad's 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:12.840 so I was, you know, daddy's little girl, and some 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:17.480 of my best childhood memories and with my dad. I 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:18.640 loved him. I still too. 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.760 That's why this interview must be so difficult for you 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:22.120 to do. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:28.240 I think knowing he's going to hear this, you know, 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.120 I've talked about these things with people and the harburst 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.640 so many times throughout my life, and it's got to 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.920 a point where I can be stone cold clinical and 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:43.800 this happened, and this happened, and this happened. I don't 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.000 think it's fair. I think he got twenty four years 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.360 that he didn't deserve, and I gave them to him. 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.960 You know, my dad's entire life has been me and 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:57.760 my kids for the last twenty four years. I gave 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.360 him those years. And I feel a lot of guilt shame, 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.960 and I think he's just he's been very lucky and 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.840 it's time to let it go. It breaks me that 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:14.200 Graham past without without the justice he deserved for Rachelle, 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:17.480 for everything I could see. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.760 He was a wonderful father. He loved his daughter. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.520 And she was taken from him as the cruelest thing imaginable. 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:32.080 And I just wish my dad would be accountable as 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:38.920 a father. He's at certain periods in my life. He 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:45.120 loved me very well, and he loved my children. But 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.560 to me, my father is jacqualine height. He's caused us 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:53.440 so much pain. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:15:59.800 How hurtful could he get? 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.360 Uh? He once said it was my fault that my 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.880 daughter died, that I was a negligent mum, and that 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.080 I must have loved it because of the attention I got. 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:28.880 He Uh, yeah, it was mainly attacking me as a mother. 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.560 I do often say that, you know he was gonna 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.560 go for custody of my kids and take them off me. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.280 I don't know, hide from the fact that I have. 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:49.000 Had a lot of problems over the years, and. 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:57.520 My kids have gotten through a huge amount of significant trauma. 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:04.879 I was not by or abusive. I was neglectful because 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.840 some days I couldn't get out of pen and my 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.560 kids suffered because of that. And that's another reason I 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.119 let him in their life, because the same thing he 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.600 provided when I was a child, he was fun. He 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:23.480 was My children worshiped him. I never relied on my dad, 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.040 but he would step up. He would turn up every 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.000 Friday afternoon and now I'm going to take the kids here, 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:29.200 and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:35.200 do that. And I needed that with what was going 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.040 on in my life. Was not in a good way 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.399 in the early years of life, just trying to hurt 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:46.399 me as much as possible, and he there was nothing 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:51.600 that was too low for him. And then yeah, it 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.440 was like it was all forgotten. But on those occasions 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.280 that he brought it up, he would like our past fights, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.879 and he would bring up that, you know, he didn't 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:07.280 kill Rochelle, and I'd apologized that I had said those things, 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:09.840 but he never apologized to me for any of that 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:14.920 and never got a sickle apology. He's never been able 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.280 to be accountable. If I talked to him about my pain, 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:22.920 it was always, you know, even when I accused him 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:28.680 of killing Rochelle, it was always when we discuss it later, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:35.199 it wasn't denials of doing it. It was that I 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:40.840 was the horrible person for accusing him, and he always 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.640 turned it around that I was evil and I was horrible, 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:48.160 and I was cruel. He never acknowledged anything he ever did. 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:49.639 Did he play the victim? 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:55.840 Always? Always I was cruel, I was horrible. The papers 0:18:55.840 --> 0:19:00.280 were against him, the policeman was after him because see 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.080 you heard his daughter. My dad, whenever backed into a corner, 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:09.600 was the victim. You know. That's the only time I'd 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.880 see my dad make himself vulnerable. But it was make 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:18.480 believe it was an act so you would feel sympathy. 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.560 A text message I received probably about two years ago 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.560 where he acknowledged a lot of things he didn't. He 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.439 didn't fully acknowledge it, but he said he was sorry 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:34.119 for the ways he had let me down, which is 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.240 I never got anything like that in my life from him. 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.679 There was never any acknowledgment of anything. There was no 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:46.120 apologies for anything until that text message, and it rowed 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:50.400 me apart to the point I couldn't function for weeks 0:19:50.840 --> 0:20:03.960 because I needed it for forty one years. But yeah, 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:14.359 his cruelty was mostly passive aggressive. I remember he used 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:18.080 to record my boys and there'd be a bribe in 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.400 it for them and they'd explain, but he would get 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.960 them to record videos saying we don't want to live 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:27.240 with him, but we want to live with path And 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.000 I knew it was because I stood up to him 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:35.639 with some racist comment or some whenever he saw my fistyess. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.760 He hated that. He hated that I'm passionate as me 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:40.919 because I am as a person when it comes to 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.720 my values, I am very feisty and I stand up. 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:45.640 I can stand up for other people, just not myself. 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.160 And standing up to him was hard in regards to me. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.239 But I could stand up to the other things that 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.199 he said and did, and I could see how angry 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.320 he'd get. He'd have a smile on his face and 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.840 he'd be normal. Yeah, that would be my punishment for 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.199 things like that. Or he often barred mouthed me to 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:10.240 my children. He would encourage them to make racist comments, 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:15.960 gay joaks, things like that, and challenge at masculinity. When 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.680 they didn't, it was almost a taunting that really toxic. 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.919 You know, to be a man, you must be these things. 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.680 And yeah, it's definitely affected my kids. 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.480 From what you've witnessed with your dad. How does he 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:38.560 attract women? 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:49.160 He's very charming, charismatic, he uses humor, he's like, he's 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:54.480 very critical of other men. I think my dud views 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.119 or other men as competition. It's very rare that he 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:02.400 had close relationships with men. There were a few few 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:06.000 friends he had. You know, he would criticize that. You know, 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.120 men want to go to the pub and drink and 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:09.880 they don't get up and dance. My dad will get 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.800 up and dance with anyone. He's always the life of 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:19.320 the party. He's not been a big drinker throughout my life. 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.080 I've seen him drink a handful of times and know 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:26.880 and only get tipsy drunk maybe once or twice. He 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:31.399 needs to always be in control. He would use me 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.600 and my children. And when I say use, you know, 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.879 I think some of the love he had for me 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:43.240 and my kids was entirely genuine. But he knew that 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:50.000 that attracted people. That he was loving doating father and grandfather, 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:58.240 and yeah, women I saw them idolize him. Like It 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:00.800 still blows my mind that my father, though, gets the 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:06.880 women he gets. They are all not only pure in heart, intelligent, 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:13.200 loving and kind women. They're all drop dead gorgeous. And 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:18.640 one look at my father, you go, how and yeah, 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:23.919 he just wins them over. He lies a lot. I 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:25.959 used to get very annoyed, you know, his friends had 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.080 mentioned stuff like, you know how he bought me a car. 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:30.040 My dad never bought me a car. I was paying 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:35.600 it off myself. But he didn't have to lie about 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:39.680 what he did for me. He could have just told 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.399 them what he did and people would still think he 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:44.760 was wonderful. But instead he would say that he was 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:50.560 practically raising the kids, that I wasn't coping, and my 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:52.480 dad was paying all my bills and he bought me 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:58.560 a car and doing everything. Now, I understand people like 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.640 to talk themselves up and want people to see them 0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:04.080 as some sort of hero, but I don't know why 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:08.720 he had to speak about me in such a degrading way. 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:14.840 If I saw one of my children struggling, I would 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:17.199 just want to be there and help fix it. My 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.159 dad never, through those times, ever came and such as 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:24.879 what you need, how do I help, never try to 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:26.920 get me any help. 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.840 He used it for his advantage. You're describing a man 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.960 who some might think grooms people. 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:45.359 Yes, that's one hundred percent grooming, and somehow he grooms 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:50.919 others to help him. How so he's never told me 0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:55.159 what I'm supposed to do. But I know I can't 0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:57.840 explain that phenomenon. I don't know how that happens. 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:01.080 Can you think of an example that might explain it. 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:07.080 When there was an audience that I knew, we had 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.080 to act like the closest dad and daughter in the world. 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:12.240 So we might be preparing for a party and he 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:16.560 barely acknowledges me, and you know, he might have the 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:23.000 shits with me, and yeah, there was nothing. He wouldn't 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:26.960 describe us as close at all as then when people arrived, 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:33.119 he lived his whole life for me. I was the 0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:37.359 most beautiful girl in the room. Introduced me to everyone, 0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:40.280 this is my beautiful daughter, even though he say things 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:45.720 behind my back that fed into it that my daughter 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.639 has all these problems, but I lift her up. He 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:51.040 didn't do that for anything else other than the audience 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:54.320 that were watching, because they think she's got all these problems, 0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:57.359 and look at the way he builds her confidence. And 0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:01.919 I would immediately play into it. I saw partners go 0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:04.600 along with it when he would tell stories. I remember 0:26:04.600 --> 0:26:07.520 one partner who sat there through a story. They had 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:12.760 gone on a cruise at dinner cruise and he was 0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:20.680 telling us at Christmas about this guy getting belligerent and 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.960 causing a scene. And my dad said, you know, he 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:25.720 helped kick him off the boat, and my dad got 0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:27.800 in a fight with this guy, and then his partner 0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:30.439 told me when he walked away that there was the 0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:33.199 belligerent guy on the dinner cruise. And all of that 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:35.359 happened except the part that my dad was involved. He 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:38.600 didn't get up from the table, but she went along 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:40.800 with his story that he was telling him that he 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:44.640 was with her. He was fully aware that she knew 0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:45.880 everything he was saying was a lie. 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:47.480 She was there, but. 0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:52.800 We'd all do it, we'd comply. I started noticing my 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:55.520 kids do it, and that's when it really hit me, 0:26:56.760 --> 0:26:58.800 because it was okay for it to be normal for me. 0:27:00.840 --> 0:27:07.120 When I saw that one of my sons was punished 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:12.320 because he was less compliant than the others. He would 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:16.200 be treated in a very passive, aggressive way. He would 0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:23.440 be punished in weird, sinister ways, in a normal way 0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:26.080 that you would punish a child. It was psychological. It 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:28.960 was making him feel less than his brothers. It was 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:31.520 something I could accept for myself, but not for my sons. 0:27:31.720 --> 0:27:34.560 What about the sinister lies? How deep do they go? 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:38.800 He always has a story to justify anything I didn't, 0:27:39.160 --> 0:27:42.120 So I was about twelve, when my parents were sort 0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:46.920 of arguing for custody of me and a so when 0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:49.040 I found out a lot of her family secrets and 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:52.159 found out about my dad's history, Dad got out in 0:27:52.160 --> 0:27:55.480 front of it and told me himself. He also told 0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:57.760 me some stuff about my mum trying to me against her. 0:27:57.960 --> 0:27:59.840 Thankfully mum had already told me. But as I said, 0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:07.919 never bad moused him and he told me that in 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:09.879 the eighties he had been accused of a rape. I 0:28:09.920 --> 0:28:15.160 only knew of one rape. And he said that he 0:28:15.400 --> 0:28:19.080