WEBVTT - When cops are criminals: Veronica Gorrie Pt.1 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:04.920 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.080 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.120 exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.239 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.160 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.439 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.800 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.479 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.680 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.519 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.040 Welcome to another episode that by Catch Killers. We're going 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.480 to have a hard conversation. Today we'll be talking about 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.320 policing through the eyes of an Aboriginal woman who spent 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.240 ten years in the Queensland Police Force, and what she 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.840 says will make people feel uncomfortable. Sometimes facing the truth 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.560 is difficult and confronting. It takes courage to speak up, 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.840 and today's guest is a courageous lady. I have a 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.399 passion for policing and indigenous issues, So when the two 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.039 are in conflict, that saddens me. Unless people like today's guest, 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.839 Veronica Gory, speak up, things won't change. I invite everyone 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.520 to sit back and listen to Veronica's story. There is 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.120 as powerful as it is inspirational, and there's a story 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.920 that needs to be told, and if it's listened to 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.360 with an open mind, it might just change some people's 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.960 view and give us a greater understanding about what it's 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.960 like to be an Indigenous woman working as a police officer. 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:41.319 Veronica Gory, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:42.160 Thank you Gary. 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.120 Well, I'm really pleased that we've finally got to got 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.840 to meet. When I started hearing about your story, I 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.760 always thought our paths would cross in some way. Yeah, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.360 and we've been trying to get you on for a 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.880 couple of years. You're a hard person to track down sometimes. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:01:58.880 Yeah, a bit like that. 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:01.360 How do you feel? 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.200 I feel really good. Yeah. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.600 You get the background you've come from. I've come from, 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:08.360 and we're cops and here we are sitting in a 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:10.840 studio trying to be media people. Yeah. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:12.919 I'm not sure how today's going to go, but I 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.280 think I'll be right and if we're not, you know, 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:16.000 we'll get there. 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.680 Well, the pressure pressures on the stuff up or my 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.160 my fault. Yeah, the reason I'm interested in your story 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.320 coming from the police. My eyes were opened up to 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.640 racism in the in the police, and we'll call it 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.119 for what it is in the police. When I first 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.440 became involved in the Barable investigation, and I put my 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.160 hand up and you know, we're going to have a 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.639 long conversation about things. But I went up to Bearable, 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.920 to the mission where three children had been murdered, and 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:51.000 I was ignorant about racism within the own organization, racism 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:55.799 within society, and ignorant about the issues that Aboriginal people 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.560 face living in an area on the outskirts of town. 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:04.360 And it changed my view on the world. But they 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.520 also changed me as a police officer. Do you think 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.440 there's a lot of police out there that just don't 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.760 get exposed to it or don't understand it because I 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.640 went up there and naive, thinking, well, we're not really racist. 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.160 Occasionally people will make a joke about the blackfellow or 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.040 something like that. But once I realized what was going on, 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.400 I was ashamed of the person I was before I 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:24.799 got there. 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.680 Yeah, I think policing all over this country, if not 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.120 the world, or like it says they have, is systemic 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:37.200 racism and it's deeply entrenched. So when I was at 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.120 the academy, I didn't like, I didn't hear any racial slows. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.760 That was fine, but don't like the first week out 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:49.440 on general duties. It's just it's very confronting and to 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.360 hear people racially little for your own mob, it's really 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.480 hard to listen to. And as of first year Connie 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.920 was quite difficult for me to speak up because I'd 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.240 just come out of the academy. I think after this 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.400 there was also there was other police that were already 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.680 they'd been in a job for three years, and they 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.120 were too for it to come out as Aboriginal because 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.240 of that. For that reason, because of the racism and 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.080 the police. Yeah, so I actually think I accidentally brought 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.240 brought them out of the white closet, so to speak. 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:26.599 Yeah, it's what I find strange because people very much 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:31.960 became aware as my career progressed my stance on Indigenous 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.680 issues and racism and all that, But still comments would 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.280 fly around the office that were, yeah, I'm thinking, oh, 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.599 the guys you actually, yeah, you know where I stand. 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.839 You think it's appropriate to yeah, make these make these comments. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.160 Yeah, and it must have been hard, like say, and 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:51.640 that was the thing with me when I was in 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:53.919 a job. Each and every time I heard racial slurs 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.159 against my people, I called them out for it. I 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.239 was deemed to be difficult. I'm an angry black woman. 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:04.799 But when white fellows say it, it's they pay attention. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.240 They stand up and go okay, yep, yep, they actually 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.040 listen to you. But as a black fellow, like I 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.320 was just a winging, winging black woman. 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.960 Yeah, you touch on an interesting point there, because I've 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.520 had to, just in my role and the stance I've 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:23.200 taken on things, had to articulate issues. But I'm always 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.039 mindful that it's hard for me as a white man 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.240 talking about issues that indigenous people are facing because I 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.599 haven't walked that path, and I do it as best 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.200 I can. But I'm always respectful that it's your position. 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.080 It's our life. Like each and every day we're fighting 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.560 a system and the injustices in the colony. You know, 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:48.920 to be watched while you go shopping, you know, surveiled 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:52.880 by the staff, and you know you're pre you know, 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.920 they're already preconceived that you're going to be sealing stuff 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:02.120 or terrible like. And as a cop, it was very 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.920 difficult too. I was always asked, so are you a 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.240 full cop, like did you go to the academy or 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:12.600 are you a police susan, Yeah, yeah, what, Yeah. 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.240 It's confronting. And my other experience in one of my 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.880 failed marriages I won't go into, but I was married 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:24.360 to an Aboriginal lady and what I what I found 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.320 in with the bearable communities and other communities, and there's 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.800 subtle racism that comes out. And quite often you could 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:32.920 be out and someone says something in the room goes 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.919 silent because they all look towards the person. I'm sorry, 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:38.479 I didn't mean to say that, but it's just in 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.239 people's nature. And that was very much in the police 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.160 Like people would say say things and I'd sort of 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.240 look at really, you're saying this. So you must have 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.200 been confronted with that time and time again. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.320 Yeah, and being given that, I'm like, I've got an 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.279 olive complexion as well, so I would have been seen 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.479 as a white fellow with a deadly TN. But like 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.520 you know, I don't know any other job or career whereby. 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.920 You've got it within the first three or two to 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.240 three minutes of working for someone new, you've got to 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.400 let them know that you're Aboriginal. You know, I don't 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.720 know any other job whereby. And then I did that 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.520 strategically because I didn't want to hear racial clues about 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:17.280 my people. 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:21.120 And explaining that because people people might find that's unusual. 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.240 But I know exactly what you're saying, because I've been 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.120 in those situations with people that they get it out 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:27.400 very upfront. 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:27.960 First thing. 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:32.040 We say I'm Aboriginal, just to stop the comments, and. 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.600 We shouldn't have to, like I'm not asking your background, right, 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.000 you know, like I see people as people, but yeah, 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.480 everyone's different. I guess I don't know what goes through 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:43.160 their mind. But I also want to go back to 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:47.560 the bar of Barroville murders, where I witness you with 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.440 the families and how you treated the families really sensitivity 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.800 and bringing very respectful to them and the families of 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.840 and the thing is that tore us up as a 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.320 nation watching that and hearing about the families urban what 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.920 they were going through and still going through a lot 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.280 of families are still going through it right now that 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:15.400 you know, we're missing women and children. As Abershinal people, 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:20.520 when we report a crime, like as a victim, Please 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.400 can't imagine us as victims because they're so us still 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:29.640 locking us up. So, for example, I know someone who's 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.360 trigger warning, always a trigger warning when I talk, who's 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:40.400 put in a rape complaint and the investigation, I just 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.360 know police haven't done the work. They said they couldn't 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.120 find one of the perpetrators. It took me whole or 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.920 five minutes. I'm not even in the job anymore. It 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.080 took me five minutes to locate this person. So that 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.040 tells me that they're not doing the work and they 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.520 don't take this complaint serious. And it's upsetting because as 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:04.000 Abershinal people, we don't call police. I know, with a 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:05.880 lot of other people when they have conflict in the 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:12.040 community or their families or out and about their first 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.439 instinct to call triples there. With Aboriginal people, we don't. 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:21.120 And there's good reason for that because we're always mostly 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:23.960 misidentified as perpetrators. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.040 Yeah, and again, little things like that that people, and 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:33.080 you explain that in very clear, articulate way people don't 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.960 understand that. People can't understand what you're talking about. Recently, 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.920 and you reference it in your second second book about 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.959 the federal parliamentary inquiry into Missing Black Women. I gave 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.760 evidence a couple of weeks of a couple of months 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:53.360 ago at the inquiry, and it's frightening the type of 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.400 things that how is it that these victims are forgotten? 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.280 And it really is a victim forgotten because of their race, 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.240 I call it, and it's probably a soft term for it. 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.920 And I've said this sometimes when I'm talking about this 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.640 unconscious bias that people don't even think they're racist, but 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.520 the way that they receive the information there is a bias. 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.960 I don't believe in unconscious bias. I was waiting for 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:19.320 you that and I was kind of thinking about that 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:24.400 word that that that phrase aren't phrase. I don't believe 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:30.760 in that. People like you've fully grown adults, okay, babies 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.559 and children. They're not born to be racist. So they're 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.080 learning it from their parents or in the. 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.640 Family about valid pints. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.880 Yeah, so you're not. Yeah, there's no I don't believe 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.080 in your conscious Okay, you have have you know as 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.640 an adult, you know you know the difference between right 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:56.280 and wrong, and you just know saying saying words that 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.440 are derogative is not right. 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.120 Yeah, so I take it. Yeah, it does make sense. Again, 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.320 this is from your perspective, and I a dress it up, 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:08.240 but I take on, bore what you now. 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.240 I think with the age of criminality with your young people, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.120 is a ten years old in this state or fourteen 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.080 for the got ten ten? Still ten? Right, They've been 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.840 convicted of crimes alleged crime at the age of ten 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.920 because they're deemed to know the difference between right and wrong. 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.280 So I fully grown asked. You know, Herry, as adult 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.240 should know the difference between right and wrong. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.880 Okay, fair coll, fair coll. All right, Now I just 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.600 ask about the books and we'll talk a lot about 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.720 what's contained in the book. But your first book, Black 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.680 and Blue, a memoir of racism and resilience, which I 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.240 might add and correct me if I'm wrong. But the 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.960 Victorian Prize for Literature Australia's richest literary award in twenty 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.440 twenty two. Yeah, yep, congratulations, thank you very much. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.720 Yeah. And who would have thought, oh, because much of 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:06.040 that book was about the injustices the state government Victorian 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.719 State government did to my family. Ironically, it was a 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:15.400 Victorian state government funding writers funding that or prize that 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.360 I won. It's really good. 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.920 Where you're making the little difference. What inspired you to 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:20.959 write the book? 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.520 So initially, so after towards the end of my career 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.599 as in Queensland Place Officer, I was diagnosed with PTSD 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.920 anxiety and depression and due to the trauma, your brain 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.560 does weird and wonderful things. But I started to lose 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.720 a lot of my memory, and so I started writing, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:41.040 documenting some stuff, a lot of my memories, and not 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.040 not just for my kids but future generations. And I 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.520 wished my grandmother had done this to hand down the stories, 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.640 and also as Black Fellows were the oldest living storytellers 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.280 as well, so I wanted to document what memories I 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:57.320 did have. Unfortunately, there weren't many good memories. For some reason, 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.200 my brain has I can't remember any good memories. I 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.800 don't recall any I'm sure there would have been, but 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.400 I just don't have any memory of it. So yeah, 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.360 and before too long I had enough for a book. 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:14.080 So and did you feel was it triggering in bringing 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:18.719 up some of the past or did you find it cathartic. 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:25.040 Cathartic no triggering, so yeah, very triggering. 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:27.160 There's some heavy stuff in there. 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.840 Yeah, and it would keep me up late at night 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.200 and I had odd hours of writing as well, like 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.959 due to the memory loss. And so at two o'clock 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:38.320 in the morning, if I had a memory come to 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:40.400 me whilst I'll sleep, I'd get up and start writing 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.280 because I knew that I went back to sleep would 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:44.040 have forgotten about it. 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.960 Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Well, congratulations because I've read 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.320 the book cover the cover, and yeah, I enjoyed, enjoyed 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.199 the read. When I say enjoyed the read, it's not happy, 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.719 it's not a happy read. That's me clarify that. You'll 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.920 think I'm some with that. How are you enjoying that? 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.199 Come from that comedy? 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.280 Like you gotta laugh? I Yeah. One thing that the 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.480 barer of a community taught me was their sense of humor. 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:13.520 Just crack me up all the time. We're the funniest 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.480 people quite often at my expense or whoever I was 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.320 working with expense. But yeah, and they're able to laugh. 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:20.880 And I think that's a good way of dealing with 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.760 adversity and tragedy and everything else that goes into play. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.040 I think in life you choose to over laugh or crying. 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:34.120 We choose to laugh. Yeah, crying every day, right, Yeah. 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.960 You could imagine that the bearerable mob. But what they 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.080 give to two white guys coming from the city up 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.160 on the mission and the ship that they used to 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.440 put on us, and it was done in good humor, 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:44.840 and the more they got to know us. 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.880 You really what I want to emphasize that you really 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.040 earned their respect, which is what I've seen and that's 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:55.160 not common. Yeah, so just it's very telling about your character. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:15:00.640 Really, it was something special, and people often say, great 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.000 the work you did with bearable people. I got more 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:05.040 from them than they ever got from me. Like, they 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.360 taught me so much, they embraced me. It was like 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.520 a part of their family, and they're like part of 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.520 my family, and it's a beautiful relationship. And it taught 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:16.400 me so much and made me actually made me a 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.440 better person, not just a better cop. I think it 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.320 significantly changed me the path I went in policing. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.040 But just the support they gave you too outside the 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.480 courthouse and cheering you on, and you know, it's it's 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.280 the roles were reversed. But for them to trust you 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:38.200 for an Aboriginal personal family to trust a white person. 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.160 It's really you know, it's very telling. 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.800 Yeah, well it's it was mutual. The love that we've 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.040 got for each other, like the community and myself and 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:48.880 I feel part of it and on them to be 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.480 a big part of it. Got me in a bit 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.600 of trouble in the police when we marched on Parliament 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.880 a few times. But other than that and probably a 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.800 lot of other things, but no, I enjoyed it. Let's 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.960 talk about you there, your your life and describe if 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:05.640 if someone came up to you and said, who the 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.680 hell are you? How would you describe yourself? 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.720 Oh? The first thing wasn't canob woman? Your pronouns are she? 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:12.160 And who? 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.400 Mother of three amazing adult children, grandmother of two burroys 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:18.880 four year old twins. 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.120 Congratulations, Yeah they love Yeah. 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.560 A writer, I just say I'm a writer. I don't 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:26.920 actually where I live, No one knows who I am. 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:32.440 It's really good, which I love, critically acclaimed, award winning. 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.480 You don't walk around copies of your book? No? 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:36.480 No? Yeah? 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.400 And your childhood where'd you grow. 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:44.560 Up down Gippsland in eastern Victoria and then traveled a 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.160 bit with my father. Yeah, a lot. 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:53.000 Actually, you move moved around a lot, yeah, different places, 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:54.040 different places. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:59.600 You went to Rockhampton and Queensland, Malnois, Alice Springs, Love 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:05.280 Dallas things, yeah, and parts of Victoria and like, yeah, 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.160 just moved around a lot of schools, which is yeah. 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.480 And what I want to say is we're black and blue. 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.760 A lot of abitual people will resonate with much of 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.639 what I've written, but I don't speak for everyone. I 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:17.560 just speak for myself. 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.240 No, that's important. A friend of mine asked me on 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.000 the weekend. I said, I was reading your book, and 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.800 how did you find it? And I said, it's heavy reading, 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.520 but I'm enjoying reading it. And I said, the thing 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.000 that saddens me, I know this is Veronica's story, but 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:32.439 there's so many stories like it. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:32.800 Yeah. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.600 Yeah, And as you've identified this is your story, there's 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.760 a lot of other people have got similar, similar stories. 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.800 I can bring and a lot of people will resonate 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.320 with that. And the difference between me and them is 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:44.320 that I've written about it. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And do you think by actually talking 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.920 about them, writing about it helps other people they understand 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.640 that they're not on their own way. 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.439 Yeah, because I think I think sometimes so with aberitual people, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:03.200 we don't usually have happy and unfortunately, so I think 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.840 you know, you asked me about was a cathartic earlier, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.639 and I said, I'm not really, But I think in 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.600 a sense that I don't talk about a lot of 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.040 the stuff that happened to me, but I wrote about it, 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:20.119 and so what's out now it's out of my head. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.000 So I think, you know, if I can encourage other 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:27.639 people to write their experiences and not you know, stuff 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.760 that they've never told anyone before. 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:36.680 You touched on your grandparents' lives and you and I 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.600 see that in indigenous communities there's generational trauma that can 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.119 be passed out and people don't understand that. I know, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.399 people when they've challenged me if I'm talking about something, 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.720 they'll gave But that was in the past. It doesn't 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.680 happen now. But there's intergenerational trauma that gets passed down 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:52.399 in communities. 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.120 Yeah, the thing is it's still happening now though it's 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.600 not that you don't go and that's what I want 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.639 to would the George Floyd matter as well in the US, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:05.959 so a lot of non Indigenous people in this country went. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.639 When they saw the visuals of it on television or whatever, 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.280 you know, they're gasping and oh my goodness, that's terrible. 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.600 What they don't know is it's happening right here in 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.240 this country. But they, for some reason, they turn a 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:23.320 blonde eye. And that's why I've always encourage people not 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:27.080 to become martyrs, but just start filming. And it's not 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.760 a black and white thing. It's just filming when when 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:34.080 you see cops harming people in the community. But also 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.360 I don't want to get them in trouble, like them arrested, 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.960 but let them know that you are filming, and tell 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.800 the person who's been assaulted or been harmed that I'm 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:43.640 filming for you. 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.000 Well, it can certainly slave people up. And you know, 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.120 slap you've been a police officer and will delve into 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.159 your policing career, and you know, that's the type of 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.439 thing that will stop police misbehaving if someone's watching. But 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.760 on that George Floyd, when they had the marches here, 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.359 I wasn't long out of the cops and it was 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.240 controversial circumstances and I got invited along to that march 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.520 and David Shubridge, the Greens MP at the time was 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.840 coordinating it. And I've turned up there. People said that 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.639 you come in. I knew it'd be controversial if I 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.400 turned up there, and I ended up on the news. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.760 I look, who's here, the disgraced detective. And it was 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.480 funny because I knew the cops. I knew a lot 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.680 of the blackfellows, and I was drifting between the two. 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:31.879 What really hit me being out of the cops for 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.639 the first time in a situation like that, how confronting it. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.000 He's seen a line of blue uniforms lined up and 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.199 I'm standing with this group where I'm used to be 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.679 standing with that group, And how intimidating it. 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.880 It's very intimidating if you've never but yeah, and we've 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:49.840 been on that side. Yeah, you know, I used to 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.040 do the same sort of work, public public order, your 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:57.600 public order. Yeah, it's hard, it's difficult, and I think 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.560 that's where I'm not scared of place. I guess because 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.320 I know my rights. Really, I really know my rights, 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:10.040 like yeah, but but for someone who doesn't know their rights, intimidating, 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:11.160 it's very intimidating. 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.120 Yeah. Well, that's that's what I found on the day. 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.840 And it was an inspirational day. I thought it was. Yeah, 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.400 it was very moving when we walked all the way 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.920 through the city to a park and everyone took took 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:23.840 to one knellion. 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.200 It was all timed all over the around the world. Yeah, 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:27.920 they had rallies all over the world. 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.200 Yeah, it was powerful and I thought people would buy 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.080 into that, and it was a it was a wake 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.960 up call, and I think some people sort of open 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.000 their eyes to what's going on because it was a 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:43.399