Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that by Catch Killers. We're going
Speaker 1: to have a hard conversation. Today we'll be talking about
Speaker 1: policing through the eyes of an Aboriginal woman who spent
Speaker 1: ten years in the Queensland Police Force, and what she
Speaker 1: says will make people feel uncomfortable. Sometimes facing the truth
Speaker 1: is difficult and confronting. It takes courage to speak up,
Speaker 1: and today's guest is a courageous lady. I have a
Speaker 1: passion for policing and indigenous issues, So when the two
Speaker 1: are in conflict, that saddens me. Unless people like today's guest,
Speaker 1: Veronica Gory, speak up, things won't change. I invite everyone
Speaker 1: to sit back and listen to Veronica's story. There is
Speaker 1: as powerful as it is inspirational, and there's a story
Speaker 1: that needs to be told, and if it's listened to
Speaker 1: with an open mind, it might just change some people's
Speaker 1: view and give us a greater understanding about what it's
Speaker 1: like to be an Indigenous woman working as a police officer.
Speaker 1: Veronica Gory, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you Gary.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm really pleased that we've finally got to got
Speaker 1: to meet. When I started hearing about your story, I
Speaker 1: always thought our paths would cross in some way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we've been trying to get you on for a
Speaker 1: couple of years. You're a hard person to track down sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a bit like that.
Speaker 1: How do you feel?
Speaker 2: I feel really good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You get the background you've come from. I've come from,
Speaker 1: and we're cops and here we are sitting in a
Speaker 1: studio trying to be media people. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how today's going to go, but I
Speaker 2: think I'll be right and if we're not, you know,
Speaker 2: we'll get there.
Speaker 1: Well, the pressure pressures on the stuff up or my
Speaker 1: my fault. Yeah, the reason I'm interested in your story
Speaker 1: coming from the police. My eyes were opened up to
Speaker 1: racism in the in the police, and we'll call it
Speaker 1: for what it is in the police. When I first
Speaker 1: became involved in the Barable investigation, and I put my
Speaker 1: hand up and you know, we're going to have a
Speaker 1: long conversation about things. But I went up to Bearable,
Speaker 1: to the mission where three children had been murdered, and
Speaker 1: I was ignorant about racism within the own organization, racism
Speaker 1: within society, and ignorant about the issues that Aboriginal people
Speaker 1: face living in an area on the outskirts of town.
Speaker 1: And it changed my view on the world. But they
Speaker 1: also changed me as a police officer. Do you think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of police out there that just don't
Speaker 1: get exposed to it or don't understand it because I
Speaker 1: went up there and naive, thinking, well, we're not really racist.
Speaker 1: Occasionally people will make a joke about the blackfellow or
Speaker 1: something like that. But once I realized what was going on,
Speaker 1: I was ashamed of the person I was before I
Speaker 1: got there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think policing all over this country, if not
Speaker 2: the world, or like it says they have, is systemic
Speaker 2: racism and it's deeply entrenched. So when I was at
Speaker 2: the academy, I didn't like, I didn't hear any racial slows.
Speaker 2: That was fine, but don't like the first week out
Speaker 2: on general duties. It's just it's very confronting and to
Speaker 2: hear people racially little for your own mob, it's really
Speaker 2: hard to listen to. And as of first year Connie
Speaker 2: was quite difficult for me to speak up because I'd
Speaker 2: just come out of the academy. I think after this
Speaker 2: there was also there was other police that were already
Speaker 2: they'd been in a job for three years, and they
Speaker 2: were too for it to come out as Aboriginal because
Speaker 2: of that. For that reason, because of the racism and
Speaker 2: the police. Yeah, so I actually think I accidentally brought
Speaker 2: brought them out of the white closet, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's what I find strange because people very much
Speaker 1: became aware as my career progressed my stance on Indigenous
Speaker 1: issues and racism and all that, But still comments would
Speaker 1: fly around the office that were, yeah, I'm thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: the guys you actually, yeah, you know where I stand.
Speaker 1: You think it's appropriate to yeah, make these make these comments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it must have been hard, like say, and
Speaker 2: that was the thing with me when I was in
Speaker 2: a job. Each and every time I heard racial slurs
Speaker 2: against my people, I called them out for it. I
Speaker 2: was deemed to be difficult. I'm an angry black woman.
Speaker 2: But when white fellows say it, it's they pay attention.
Speaker 2: They stand up and go okay, yep, yep, they actually
Speaker 2: listen to you. But as a black fellow, like I
Speaker 2: was just a winging, winging black woman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you touch on an interesting point there, because I've
Speaker 1: had to, just in my role and the stance I've
Speaker 1: taken on things, had to articulate issues. But I'm always
Speaker 1: mindful that it's hard for me as a white man
Speaker 1: talking about issues that indigenous people are facing because I
Speaker 1: haven't walked that path, and I do it as best
Speaker 1: I can. But I'm always respectful that it's your position.
Speaker 2: It's our life. Like each and every day we're fighting
Speaker 2: a system and the injustices in the colony. You know,
Speaker 2: to be watched while you go shopping, you know, surveiled
Speaker 2: by the staff, and you know you're pre you know,
Speaker 2: they're already preconceived that you're going to be sealing stuff
Speaker 2: or terrible like. And as a cop, it was very
Speaker 2: difficult too. I was always asked, so are you a
Speaker 2: full cop, like did you go to the academy or
Speaker 2: are you a police susan, Yeah, yeah, what, Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's confronting. And my other experience in one of my
Speaker 1: failed marriages I won't go into, but I was married
Speaker 1: to an Aboriginal lady and what I what I found
Speaker 1: in with the bearable communities and other communities, and there's
Speaker 1: subtle racism that comes out. And quite often you could
Speaker 1: be out and someone says something in the room goes
Speaker 1: silent because they all look towards the person. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to say that, but it's just in
Speaker 1: people's nature. And that was very much in the police
Speaker 1: Like people would say say things and I'd sort of
Speaker 1: look at really, you're saying this. So you must have
Speaker 1: been confronted with that time and time again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and being given that, I'm like, I've got an
Speaker 2: olive complexion as well, so I would have been seen
Speaker 2: as a white fellow with a deadly TN. But like
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know any other job or career whereby.
Speaker 2: You've got it within the first three or two to
Speaker 2: three minutes of working for someone new, you've got to
Speaker 2: let them know that you're Aboriginal. You know, I don't
Speaker 2: know any other job whereby. And then I did that
Speaker 2: strategically because I didn't want to hear racial clues about
Speaker 2: my people.
Speaker 1: And explaining that because people people might find that's unusual.
Speaker 1: But I know exactly what you're saying, because I've been
Speaker 1: in those situations with people that they get it out
Speaker 1: very upfront.
Speaker 2: First thing.
Speaker 1: We say I'm Aboriginal, just to stop the comments, and.
Speaker 2: We shouldn't have to, like I'm not asking your background, right,
Speaker 2: you know, like I see people as people, but yeah,
Speaker 2: everyone's different. I guess I don't know what goes through
Speaker 2: their mind. But I also want to go back to
Speaker 2: the bar of Barroville murders, where I witness you with
Speaker 2: the families and how you treated the families really sensitivity
Speaker 2: and bringing very respectful to them and the families of
Speaker 2: and the thing is that tore us up as a
Speaker 2: nation watching that and hearing about the families urban what
Speaker 2: they were going through and still going through a lot
Speaker 2: of families are still going through it right now that
Speaker 2: you know, we're missing women and children. As Abershinal people,
Speaker 2: when we report a crime, like as a victim, Please
Speaker 2: can't imagine us as victims because they're so us still
Speaker 2: locking us up. So, for example, I know someone who's
Speaker 2: trigger warning, always a trigger warning when I talk, who's
Speaker 2: put in a rape complaint and the investigation, I just
Speaker 2: know police haven't done the work. They said they couldn't
Speaker 2: find one of the perpetrators. It took me whole or
Speaker 2: five minutes. I'm not even in the job anymore. It
Speaker 2: took me five minutes to locate this person. So that
Speaker 2: tells me that they're not doing the work and they
Speaker 2: don't take this complaint serious. And it's upsetting because as
Speaker 2: Abershinal people, we don't call police. I know, with a
Speaker 2: lot of other people when they have conflict in the
Speaker 2: community or their families or out and about their first
Speaker 2: instinct to call triples there. With Aboriginal people, we don't.
Speaker 2: And there's good reason for that because we're always mostly
Speaker 2: misidentified as perpetrators.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, little things like that that people, and
Speaker 1: you explain that in very clear, articulate way people don't
Speaker 1: understand that. People can't understand what you're talking about. Recently,
Speaker 1: and you reference it in your second second book about
Speaker 1: the federal parliamentary inquiry into Missing Black Women. I gave
Speaker 1: evidence a couple of weeks of a couple of months
Speaker 1: ago at the inquiry, and it's frightening the type of
Speaker 1: things that how is it that these victims are forgotten?
Speaker 1: And it really is a victim forgotten because of their race,
Speaker 1: I call it, and it's probably a soft term for it.
Speaker 1: And I've said this sometimes when I'm talking about this
Speaker 1: unconscious bias that people don't even think they're racist, but
Speaker 1: the way that they receive the information there is a bias.
Speaker 2: I don't believe in unconscious bias. I was waiting for
Speaker 2: you that and I was kind of thinking about that
Speaker 2: word that that that phrase aren't phrase. I don't believe
Speaker 2: in that. People like you've fully grown adults, okay, babies
Speaker 2: and children. They're not born to be racist. So they're
Speaker 2: learning it from their parents or in the.
Speaker 1: Family about valid pints.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're not. Yeah, there's no I don't believe
Speaker 2: in your conscious Okay, you have have you know as
Speaker 2: an adult, you know you know the difference between right
Speaker 2: and wrong, and you just know saying saying words that
Speaker 2: are derogative is not right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I take it. Yeah, it does make sense. Again,
Speaker 1: this is from your perspective, and I a dress it up,
Speaker 1: but I take on, bore what you now.
Speaker 2: I think with the age of criminality with your young people,
Speaker 2: is a ten years old in this state or fourteen
Speaker 2: for the got ten ten? Still ten? Right, They've been
Speaker 2: convicted of crimes alleged crime at the age of ten
Speaker 2: because they're deemed to know the difference between right and wrong.
Speaker 2: So I fully grown asked. You know, Herry, as adult
Speaker 2: should know the difference between right and wrong.
Speaker 1: Okay, fair coll, fair coll. All right, Now I just
Speaker 1: ask about the books and we'll talk a lot about
Speaker 1: what's contained in the book. But your first book, Black
Speaker 1: and Blue, a memoir of racism and resilience, which I
Speaker 1: might add and correct me if I'm wrong. But the
Speaker 1: Victorian Prize for Literature Australia's richest literary award in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two. Yeah, yep, congratulations, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And who would have thought, oh, because much of
Speaker 2: that book was about the injustices the state government Victorian
Speaker 2: State government did to my family. Ironically, it was a
Speaker 2: Victorian state government funding writers funding that or prize that
Speaker 2: I won. It's really good.
Speaker 1: Where you're making the little difference. What inspired you to
Speaker 1: write the book?
Speaker 2: So initially, so after towards the end of my career
Speaker 2: as in Queensland Place Officer, I was diagnosed with PTSD
Speaker 2: anxiety and depression and due to the trauma, your brain
Speaker 2: does weird and wonderful things. But I started to lose
Speaker 2: a lot of my memory, and so I started writing,
Speaker 2: documenting some stuff, a lot of my memories, and not
Speaker 2: not just for my kids but future generations. And I
Speaker 2: wished my grandmother had done this to hand down the stories,
Speaker 2: and also as Black Fellows were the oldest living storytellers
Speaker 2: as well, so I wanted to document what memories I
Speaker 2: did have. Unfortunately, there weren't many good memories. For some reason,
Speaker 2: my brain has I can't remember any good memories. I
Speaker 2: don't recall any I'm sure there would have been, but
Speaker 2: I just don't have any memory of it. So yeah,
Speaker 2: and before too long I had enough for a book.
Speaker 1: So and did you feel was it triggering in bringing
Speaker 1: up some of the past or did you find it cathartic.
Speaker 2: Cathartic no triggering, so yeah, very triggering.
Speaker 1: There's some heavy stuff in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would keep me up late at night
Speaker 2: and I had odd hours of writing as well, like
Speaker 2: due to the memory loss. And so at two o'clock
Speaker 2: in the morning, if I had a memory come to
Speaker 2: me whilst I'll sleep, I'd get up and start writing
Speaker 2: because I knew that I went back to sleep would
Speaker 2: have forgotten about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Well, congratulations because I've read
Speaker 1: the book cover the cover, and yeah, I enjoyed, enjoyed
Speaker 1: the read. When I say enjoyed the read, it's not happy,
Speaker 1: it's not a happy read. That's me clarify that. You'll
Speaker 1: think I'm some with that. How are you enjoying that?
Speaker 2: Come from that comedy?
Speaker 1: Like you gotta laugh? I Yeah. One thing that the
Speaker 1: barer of a community taught me was their sense of humor.
Speaker 1: Just crack me up all the time. We're the funniest
Speaker 1: people quite often at my expense or whoever I was
Speaker 1: working with expense. But yeah, and they're able to laugh.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a good way of dealing with
Speaker 1: adversity and tragedy and everything else that goes into play.
Speaker 2: I think in life you choose to over laugh or crying.
Speaker 2: We choose to laugh. Yeah, crying every day, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: You could imagine that the bearerable mob. But what they
Speaker 1: give to two white guys coming from the city up
Speaker 1: on the mission and the ship that they used to
Speaker 1: put on us, and it was done in good humor,
Speaker 1: and the more they got to know us.
Speaker 2: You really what I want to emphasize that you really
Speaker 2: earned their respect, which is what I've seen and that's
Speaker 2: not common. Yeah, so just it's very telling about your character.
Speaker 1: Really, it was something special, and people often say, great
Speaker 1: the work you did with bearable people. I got more
Speaker 1: from them than they ever got from me. Like, they
Speaker 1: taught me so much, they embraced me. It was like
Speaker 1: a part of their family, and they're like part of
Speaker 1: my family, and it's a beautiful relationship. And it taught
Speaker 1: me so much and made me actually made me a
Speaker 1: better person, not just a better cop. I think it
Speaker 1: significantly changed me the path I went in policing.
Speaker 2: But just the support they gave you too outside the
Speaker 2: courthouse and cheering you on, and you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: the roles were reversed. But for them to trust you
Speaker 2: for an Aboriginal personal family to trust a white person.
Speaker 2: It's really you know, it's very telling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's it was mutual. The love that we've
Speaker 1: got for each other, like the community and myself and
Speaker 1: I feel part of it and on them to be
Speaker 1: a big part of it. Got me in a bit
Speaker 1: of trouble in the police when we marched on Parliament
Speaker 1: a few times. But other than that and probably a
Speaker 1: lot of other things, but no, I enjoyed it. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about you there, your your life and describe if
Speaker 1: if someone came up to you and said, who the
Speaker 1: hell are you? How would you describe yourself?
Speaker 2: Oh? The first thing wasn't canob woman? Your pronouns are she?
Speaker 1: And who?
Speaker 2: Mother of three amazing adult children, grandmother of two burroys
Speaker 2: four year old twins.
Speaker 1: Congratulations, Yeah they love Yeah.
Speaker 2: A writer, I just say I'm a writer. I don't
Speaker 2: actually where I live, No one knows who I am.
Speaker 1: It's really good, which I love, critically acclaimed, award winning.
Speaker 1: You don't walk around copies of your book? No?
Speaker 2: No? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And your childhood where'd you grow.
Speaker 2: Up down Gippsland in eastern Victoria and then traveled a
Speaker 2: bit with my father. Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 1: Actually, you move moved around a lot, yeah, different places,
Speaker 1: different places.
Speaker 2: You went to Rockhampton and Queensland, Malnois, Alice Springs, Love
Speaker 2: Dallas things, yeah, and parts of Victoria and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: just moved around a lot of schools, which is yeah.
Speaker 2: And what I want to say is we're black and blue.
Speaker 2: A lot of abitual people will resonate with much of
Speaker 2: what I've written, but I don't speak for everyone. I
Speaker 2: just speak for myself.
Speaker 1: No, that's important. A friend of mine asked me on
Speaker 1: the weekend. I said, I was reading your book, and
Speaker 1: how did you find it? And I said, it's heavy reading,
Speaker 1: but I'm enjoying reading it. And I said, the thing
Speaker 1: that saddens me, I know this is Veronica's story, but
Speaker 1: there's so many stories like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And as you've identified this is your story, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of other people have got similar, similar stories.
Speaker 2: I can bring and a lot of people will resonate
Speaker 2: with that. And the difference between me and them is
Speaker 2: that I've written about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And do you think by actually talking
Speaker 1: about them, writing about it helps other people they understand
Speaker 1: that they're not on their own way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think I think sometimes so with aberitual people,
Speaker 2: we don't usually have happy and unfortunately, so I think
Speaker 2: you know, you asked me about was a cathartic earlier,
Speaker 2: and I said, I'm not really, But I think in
Speaker 2: a sense that I don't talk about a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff that happened to me, but I wrote about it,
Speaker 2: and so what's out now it's out of my head.
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, if I can encourage other
Speaker 2: people to write their experiences and not you know, stuff
Speaker 2: that they've never told anyone before.
Speaker 1: You touched on your grandparents' lives and you and I
Speaker 1: see that in indigenous communities there's generational trauma that can
Speaker 1: be passed out and people don't understand that. I know,
Speaker 1: people when they've challenged me if I'm talking about something,
Speaker 1: they'll gave But that was in the past. It doesn't
Speaker 1: happen now. But there's intergenerational trauma that gets passed down
Speaker 1: in communities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing is it's still happening now though it's
Speaker 2: not that you don't go and that's what I want
Speaker 2: to would the George Floyd matter as well in the US,
Speaker 2: so a lot of non Indigenous people in this country went.
Speaker 2: When they saw the visuals of it on television or whatever,
Speaker 2: you know, they're gasping and oh my goodness, that's terrible.
Speaker 2: What they don't know is it's happening right here in
Speaker 2: this country. But they, for some reason, they turn a
Speaker 2: blonde eye. And that's why I've always encourage people not
Speaker 2: to become martyrs, but just start filming. And it's not
Speaker 2: a black and white thing. It's just filming when when
Speaker 2: you see cops harming people in the community. But also
Speaker 2: I don't want to get them in trouble, like them arrested,
Speaker 2: but let them know that you are filming, and tell
Speaker 2: the person who's been assaulted or been harmed that I'm
Speaker 2: filming for you.
Speaker 1: Well, it can certainly slave people up. And you know,
Speaker 1: slap you've been a police officer and will delve into
Speaker 1: your policing career, and you know, that's the type of
Speaker 1: thing that will stop police misbehaving if someone's watching. But
Speaker 1: on that George Floyd, when they had the marches here,
Speaker 1: I wasn't long out of the cops and it was
Speaker 1: controversial circumstances and I got invited along to that march
Speaker 1: and David Shubridge, the Greens MP at the time was
Speaker 1: coordinating it. And I've turned up there. People said that
Speaker 1: you come in. I knew it'd be controversial if I
Speaker 1: turned up there, and I ended up on the news.
Speaker 1: I look, who's here, the disgraced detective. And it was
Speaker 1: funny because I knew the cops. I knew a lot
Speaker 1: of the blackfellows, and I was drifting between the two.
Speaker 1: What really hit me being out of the cops for
Speaker 1: the first time in a situation like that, how confronting it.
Speaker 1: He's seen a line of blue uniforms lined up and
Speaker 1: I'm standing with this group where I'm used to be
Speaker 1: standing with that group, And how intimidating it.
Speaker 2: It's very intimidating if you've never but yeah, and we've
Speaker 2: been on that side. Yeah, you know, I used to
Speaker 2: do the same sort of work, public public order, your
Speaker 2: public order. Yeah, it's hard, it's difficult, and I think
Speaker 2: that's where I'm not scared of place. I guess because
Speaker 2: I know my rights. Really, I really know my rights,
Speaker 2: like yeah, but but for someone who doesn't know their rights, intimidating,
Speaker 2: it's very intimidating.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's that's what I found on the day.
Speaker 1: And it was an inspirational day. I thought it was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was very moving when we walked all the way
Speaker 1: through the city to a park and everyone took took
Speaker 1: to one knellion.
Speaker 2: It was all timed all over the around the world. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they had rallies all over the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was powerful and I thought people would buy
Speaker 1: into that, and it was a it was a wake
Speaker 1: up call, and I think some people sort of open
Speaker 1: their eyes to what's going on because it was a
Speaker 1: worldwide movement. Wasn't it from one one incident that people Okay,
Speaker 1: enough is enough and we're going to stop that. Your
Speaker 1: reference in your your second book, Cops of Cops of Crooks,
Speaker 1: I think tops of criminals, when cops are criminals came
Speaker 1: home cops of crooks.
Speaker 2: Yeah that too.
Speaker 1: When in that I think you talked about an incident
Speaker 1: here at Redfern where a young fellow was had his
Speaker 1: feet swept out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was footage of that. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm what I'm emphasizing. If there wasn't
Speaker 2: footage of that, we wouldn't know about it, right, you
Speaker 2: know that we you know, I've had family members who
Speaker 2: have been assaulted by police and flogged up and back
Speaker 2: in the day prior to mobile phones where they could
Speaker 2: film it, and when they say it, it's not believed.
Speaker 2: You know, we believe you, we believe the family members,
Speaker 2: but unless you have hard evidence, it goes nowhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And with that incident, I remember again I
Speaker 1: wasn't that long our of cops and working for the
Speaker 1: Sunday Telegraph and they asked me to write an article.
Speaker 1: And I knew i'd get asked like who's better the
Speaker 1: right a cop and someone that understands who would degree
Speaker 1: the indigenous issues? And it was a very I didn't
Speaker 1: want to write it because I thought which sides of
Speaker 1: which side do I take here? But I was happy
Speaker 1: with the article. But one thing that I said with
Speaker 1: that because I don't like seeing things escalate. And I
Speaker 1: knew how the cops would feel. If the cop was
Speaker 1: charged and convicted, they'll be angry and they'll look at
Speaker 1: the was their fault, and then the indigenous community would
Speaker 1: look if the cop doesn't get charged, they'll get angry.
Speaker 1: I made a suggestion in the article. I don't think
Speaker 1: it was taken seriously, but I've spoken to a few
Speaker 1: people and they agree that wasn't a bad way of
Speaker 1: dealing with it. What if it was a young cop,
Speaker 1: young guy. What if you've got the two families together
Speaker 1: and sat down actually had a barbecue as ridiculous as sounds,
Speaker 1: and just try and think outside the square and instead
Speaker 1: of having that division. It doesn't mean that the person
Speaker 1: if for the assault shouldn't be accountable, but try to
Speaker 1: break down the barriers. What do you think of that
Speaker 1: sort of response?
Speaker 2: So the cop, the family of the.
Speaker 1: Cop, family of the cops, and the blackfellows come together,
Speaker 1: because it don't they've done some of that at Redfern
Speaker 1: where they've got that boxing Shane Phillips, tribal warrior, clean slate,
Speaker 1: without prejudice and it just breaks down the barriers. Yeah right, okay,
Speaker 1: yeah right now.
Speaker 2: Faith in that? Really, I'd still I wouldn't be trying.
Speaker 2: I think as a copper, as a black copper, former
Speaker 2: black copper, I was invited to have these barbecues and
Speaker 2: no one spoke to me and want all my family
Speaker 2: and kids. Okay, so I wouldn't want my community members
Speaker 2: to go to barbecues if they can treat one of
Speaker 2: their own that I was blue, how I'm not going
Speaker 2: to try and not to swear here Now you can
Speaker 2: swear how the fuck did they treat my people? You know?
Speaker 2: And also I'm trying to move away from police language,
Speaker 2: but I kind of when I'm talking to you as
Speaker 2: a former cop and other former cops, I find myself
Speaker 2: back and fall back in, yeah, because it's the language
Speaker 2: of policing, and so I'm trying not to go back
Speaker 2: and yeah using but I you know, I you know,
Speaker 2: I will, you know, I just find myself ending up
Speaker 2: talking like a former coup or a cop. And I
Speaker 2: don't want to use the language. I don't I don't
Speaker 2: want to reinforce the language.
Speaker 1: It's clearly and we'll talk about it. But you've been
Speaker 1: scarred from it and damage from your experience in the cops.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, I don't want to I want the listeners
Speaker 2: and the viewers to know that when I was a
Speaker 2: cop ten years I was complicit.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I wasn't the first one to put my hand up.
Speaker 2: I was just as bad. I was arresting people, I
Speaker 2: was chasing people, I was harming people. You know, I
Speaker 2: was involved in police pursuits because someone else has stolen
Speaker 2: vehicle meant more to me at the time than their lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so pushing the envelope.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is which is wrong? It's like we know
Speaker 2: so a few years ago, there was a couple of
Speaker 2: Aboriginal boys in perf in a chase for police and
Speaker 2: they got out all they were in a foot chase
Speaker 2: and they jumped into a river to get away from
Speaker 2: the police. Why do they need to chase They knew
Speaker 2: who it was when I was pursuing the style veh
Speaker 2: because I knew who was in the car and my
Speaker 2: partner was doing speeds up to two hundred kilometers per hour.
Speaker 2: We know who's in the car. Let's get them tomorrow,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean we're actually putting their lives in
Speaker 2: danger and other people's rights than danger boy actually pursuing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I know that there's protocols in place
Speaker 1: now to stop that that type of thing where you've
Speaker 1: got to call the call in the Yeah, it can
Speaker 1: get together, get around.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going to be I think I've
Speaker 2: written it in my introduction. And when cups of criminals,
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, yeah, I'd like I'd like myself to a
Speaker 2: whistleblower actually telling people what it's like inside.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it can we put up front because we're
Speaker 1: going to delve deep into it. Yeah, and I said
Speaker 1: this to you before before we went on air. That Yeah,
Speaker 1: my take on the cops is I've met some of
Speaker 1: the most inspirational good people in the cops, and I've
Speaker 1: met some of the worst people in the cops. So
Speaker 1: we're going to be spraying cops here. But is it
Speaker 1: fair to say and correct me if you disagree? There
Speaker 1: are some good cops. Don't laugh.
Speaker 2: You keep this in. Please keep this that's a fucking joke.
Speaker 2: You had a good, better experience than me, So that's
Speaker 2: what I mean.
Speaker 1: Okay, So it's about relative to the.
Speaker 2: Experience in Black and Blue. In the blue part I spoke,
Speaker 2: I wrote about a cops talking me. Yes, right, in
Speaker 2: when Cops Are Criminals, I wrote about that very same
Speaker 2: cop sexually assaulting me. And unless you've been on an inside.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you are the only person I've ever had
Speaker 1: online catchkiller. Is that reported a complaint against yourself?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's we can have a laugh at some things.
Speaker 1: I'm going to have a laugh at that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I read about it, I thought, okay, this is interesting,
Speaker 1: tell us that story.
Speaker 2: Oh so my my ex husband and that's the thing.
Speaker 2: I was a copper at the time, but I couldn't
Speaker 2: detect that he was having an external relationship outside of
Speaker 2: our marriage. So I thought my home was going really good.
Speaker 2: But yeah, he was, and it was going on for
Speaker 2: like twelve months apparently.
Speaker 1: But well, I say, you're always the last one to know, always.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he left me for another woman, and so
Speaker 2: I did some unethical checks on her, and you know,
Speaker 2: and it was unethical and you know, not not what
Speaker 2: I should have been doing, but there were reasons why
Speaker 2: I did it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So people understand what we're talking about here. With you,
Speaker 1: as a police officer, you have access to information on
Speaker 1: the computer that you can find out where people live
Speaker 1: and all sorts of details, which.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything, where they live, what tattoos they have there
Speaker 2: on their body, what they hang with.
Speaker 1: You remember, you're diving deep. But it's a it's a
Speaker 1: responsibility that can't be abused. But we know it has
Speaker 1: been abused. And you actually did it because you have
Speaker 1: this jilted lover or whatever, and you want to find
Speaker 1: out who this girl that your man left you for,
Speaker 1: and you've looked up her deep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but potentially who was going to be looking like
Speaker 2: who my kids. So that's the main reason I did it,
Speaker 2: should have done it. Couldn't sleep and walked into the
Speaker 2: boss's office and said, hey, this is what I've done. I
Speaker 2: was hoping to just says, all right, go have a
Speaker 2: coffee and Ronny, No.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it hasn't dealt No, it hasn't dealt with
Speaker 1: someone coming in the coman. Yeah, imagine if someone came in.
Speaker 1: Where do I go with this?
Speaker 2: But this is like, yeah, so I did put in
Speaker 2: a complaint, a formal complaint against myself. Stick head, all right, stickhead.
Speaker 2: It went to Ethical Standards and rightly so I probably
Speaker 2: should have been demot but they couldn't demotor first year Connie.
Speaker 1: So I go back to the academy. Yeah, I'll go
Speaker 1: back to Canada.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. But anyway, so when I was interviewed by
Speaker 2: Ethical Standards, so we're having a DARB in the back
Speaker 2: prior to a formal interview and he's got to file
Speaker 2: the gay big that's how efficient I was. And he
Speaker 2: just got me at the back and said, don't say
Speaker 2: too much because I would have type it out. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like I started with loose lips here. Yeah, but there
Speaker 2: you go.
Speaker 1: Well, it does It says a lot about you as
Speaker 1: a person. It says a lot about your integrity and
Speaker 1: also your stupidity. I think tick all the tick, all
Speaker 1: those boxes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I lost the what they did, they took
Speaker 2: away my oversays. So essentially four hundred and fifty a fortnight,
Speaker 2: which was a big loss. Yeah, and then the consequence
Speaker 2: of that is that I was financially struggling as a
Speaker 2: single parent of three kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah, makes it.
Speaker 2: I would rather go back to the academy, to be honest. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: happy there, Yeah, no, not really.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's talk about your life up until joining
Speaker 1: the police. Then why you joined the police? So, yeah,
Speaker 1: you had a bit of trauma in your your life.
Speaker 1: I don't want to trigger anything. You talk about what
Speaker 1: you want to discuss. But before you joined the police.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So as a child growing up, whenever my father
Speaker 2: was driving a car and he saw a cop car
Speaker 2: coming here to say, drungles, which is our language for police,
Speaker 2: and us kids will just throw ourselves on the floor
Speaker 2: of the car and hide because and that was generational
Speaker 2: from my grandparents were terrified at police. My grandmother was
Speaker 2: stolen from a family by police, you know, So we
Speaker 2: had so much fear in the family and in our
Speaker 2: community and still do actually with police. And I didn't
Speaker 2: want my kids because I was twenty nine and I
Speaker 2: didn't when I joined, and I didn't want my kids
Speaker 2: to have grown up with that same fear because I
Speaker 2: never you know, I started like I wasn't in fear.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to show them that cops can be
Speaker 2: trusted and all that. Well, I'd only been a short
Speaker 2: time in the police as a short time on the
Speaker 2: road to general and I realized that in the fears
Speaker 2: that my people had, my family and my community were well,
Speaker 2: untruly justified.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the trauma associated with and I've heard
Speaker 1: this many a time from many people in your your position,
Speaker 1: where their family have been worried about their kids being
Speaker 1: taken taken off them. And yeah, one one family was
Speaker 1: the whole thing was always keep the kids clean and
Speaker 1: all that, because the authorities, whether that be the police,
Speaker 1: of miss mission manager or whoever turns up, might say, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm taking taking these kids from you. It's hard to comprehend,
Speaker 1: but yeah, this is, this is.
Speaker 2: And this happens to it happens to our family right
Speaker 2: to still today, you know, welfare have the power to
Speaker 2: walk into your house as well as police. Police will
Speaker 2: acted on behalf of welfare and please And what I
Speaker 2: want to emphasize is some of the police that are
Speaker 2: attending these homes and determining whether that they're a good parent.
Speaker 2: These people are good parents. They've never they're only young,
Speaker 2: they're fresh out of the academy, they've never experienced violence,
Speaker 2: they've never starved a day in their live. The Silver
Speaker 2: Spoon kids, you know, like they've never struggled, and then
Speaker 2: they come to an Aboriginal person's home determine that the
Speaker 2: child is not safe there.
Speaker 1: One of the things in the book you were talking
Speaker 1: are talking about coming in and checking the cupboards, the
Speaker 1: cfare's food in there if there's not a food in there,
Speaker 1: and that that was.
Speaker 2: They used to go the old girls, the arnies and
Speaker 2: that used to put empty tins and packets at the
Speaker 2: front of it so it looked like they had food
Speaker 2: in the cupboard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's yeah.
Speaker 2: My father grew up like on our mission like toys
Speaker 2: down in Southeast Victoria, Bangyana in our language. He grew
Speaker 2: up that whenever they heard a car coming down on
Speaker 2: the dirt road into the mission, all the kids will
Speaker 2: just flee, and he remembers hiding under one of our
Speaker 2: great great Arnie's dress at one time from police and welfare.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not conducive to a good way of
Speaker 1: living or feeling comfort the ball.
Speaker 2: But I also experienced the same thing. So as a
Speaker 2: domestic was also subjected to domestic violence and misidentified as
Speaker 2: a perpetrator.
Speaker 1: And why is that?
Speaker 2: I think when you're in a violent relationship or an
Speaker 2: abusive relationship, were you being so controlled and told to
Speaker 2: shut your mouth and if you direct, this is what's
Speaker 2: going to happen if they leave. There was threats made
Speaker 2: to me if I told my dad or my grandparents
Speaker 2: what was happening. Yeah, So when someone does come, finally
Speaker 2: come and I never called police, the neighbors must have
Speaker 2: thank god, you know, I just and I was so
Speaker 2: grateful that they were there because I'd had enough, you know,
Speaker 2: getting bashed and I was hysterical and loud and crying
Speaker 2: out for help, and he was there calm, which is
Speaker 2: part of the tactic, you know, strategically you sit there
Speaker 2: or come and I'm the crazy one.
Speaker 1: And the cops have come in and gone, oh, you're
Speaker 1: the emotional one. You're the Yeah, yep, that must have
Speaker 1: been hard.
Speaker 2: It was hard, and it was not the first time.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's happened quite a few times with me.
Speaker 1: And there's one portion in the book and it really
Speaker 1: saddened me when I read it because I'd heard the
Speaker 1: same tale from people up at Bearable. And this is
Speaker 1: going back only a generation, not that long ago. But
Speaker 1: the women on the mission were worried when the white
Speaker 1: fellows would come in because they would be raped, and
Speaker 1: they put sand in their vaginas. That's and I read
Speaker 1: that in your book. It made me sad when I
Speaker 1: was told about it up at Bearable. That's what used
Speaker 1: to happen. And then reading in your book, just explain,
Speaker 1: explain this. It is horrendous.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, yeah, and I hope you know that's what
Speaker 2: they had to do to protect themselves. And you can blame,
Speaker 2: you know, like colonization for that, because that was that's
Speaker 2: been happening since colonization, you know, and trying to wipe
Speaker 2: out the black race. And you've got fair, fair kids
Speaker 2: running around so and they're the ones that were stolen.
Speaker 1: What what what we're talking about here is white men
Speaker 1: coming into the mission and just rape, raping, raping the women,
Speaker 1: and the way the girls and the young girls and
Speaker 1: the way that they would be protect themselves, put sand
Speaker 1: in their vaginas just.
Speaker 2: And they get pregnant and then the children, the babies
Speaker 2: are taken from styleing from them.
Speaker 1: So when we when we talk about this, and this
Speaker 1: is where I think it's really good sitting down and
Speaker 1: having having a chat chat with you, because I've spent
Speaker 1: so long talking to people Bearable, but others, other communities
Speaker 1: that have been involved, and I hear these stories and
Speaker 1: it's sort of it's just it drums it into me
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, because when you speak to
Speaker 1: people that haven't been exposed to that or heard stories
Speaker 1: like that, it's very easy to judge and get, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, what are they talking about. We're not racist
Speaker 1: in this country, or we haven't got a problem, but
Speaker 1: you've got the high incarceration rate, the early mortality, there's
Speaker 1: so many issues.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we make up three or three point five
Speaker 2: percent of the entire population of our own country, and
Speaker 2: yet we're the highest incarcerated in prisons and also in
Speaker 2: some prisons or the prisons in Northern Territory, there's one
Speaker 2: hundred percent young people Aboriginal kids. One hundred percent of
Speaker 2: Aboriginal children.
Speaker 1: It's right, there, isn't it the figures, But.
Speaker 2: It's very talering how police operate and the justice systems
Speaker 2: flawed because my people are targeted, surveiled thoughked to the
Speaker 2: point where they can't even look left and right without
Speaker 2: being picked up by a police. It's just like fucking
Speaker 2: leave my people alone.
Speaker 1: It starts at a young age to like a young
Speaker 1: age where kids get you get fines, and yeah, they
Speaker 1: never get their license because different reasons, and virtually it
Speaker 1: takes a path. But you mentioned the figures, and I
Speaker 1: think it was Jaron Badget, who we talked about before
Speaker 1: the interview that has been on here. I think she
Speaker 1: gave me those figures once.
Speaker 2: Jaron's an amazing person. She's been through a bit too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've been through a hell of a lot. But yeah,
Speaker 1: she's a very impressive lady, a great, great guest on
Speaker 1: the podcast here, one of my favorites. But I think
Speaker 1: she was rutting those figures off because she did some
Speaker 1: work in the Northern Territory and one hundred percent of
Speaker 1: the kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And also when I was a police officer
Speaker 2: with the intervention it cars to come up there and work.
Speaker 2: Fuck I am you know what I mean, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to be part of the system that steals my
Speaker 2: you know that very same. It just just baffles me,
Speaker 2: you know, like we're the most surveiled community people in
Speaker 2: this country. You know. Also, like you look at the
Speaker 2: reciptivism rate of help my people, very very high. So
Speaker 2: it's like a revolving door and it's intentional. It's the
Speaker 2: they can't kill us, they're still killing us, so they're
Speaker 2: locking us up.
Speaker 1: So with the attitudes you've got there, what made you
Speaker 1: want to join the police.
Speaker 2: Or well, the first one of the reasons, I didn't
Speaker 2: want my children to go through the same years I had.
Speaker 2: I didn't want my kids to be throwing themselves to
Speaker 2: the floor every time a cop car drove out.
Speaker 1: So you thought you'd go there and make a difference.
Speaker 2: Try to make a difference and try to bridge a
Speaker 2: gap between my people in the average on community at
Speaker 2: like with police and try to say, hey, they're okay,
Speaker 2: they're here to help. And I was so wrong, SONI
Speaker 2: even so dumb. How I stayed in so long.
Speaker 1: I don't know how old were you when you join
Speaker 1: the place thirty okay, so whether you've been doing up
Speaker 1: until that time, and I might you were the first
Speaker 1: person in your family that got through year twelve at school.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you'll find them. And that's a lot of
Speaker 2: families will resonate with that. There's always the first. And
Speaker 2: it's not to say that there's you know, your other
Speaker 2: siblings and aren't intelligent, so that we come from trauma.
Speaker 2: A lot with our lives come are trauma based, you know,
Speaker 2: and for what their reasons, they don't they don't have dreams,
Speaker 2: they don't have aspirations, you know. I have concerns for
Speaker 2: my family members when they leave their homes that they're
Speaker 2: going to be the next step in custody.
Speaker 1: M hmm.
Speaker 2: That do you have kids? Do you have that worry?
Speaker 1: Nos?
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry no, no, but I'll get yeah.
Speaker 1: But I understand. I'll relate a story that I was
Speaker 1: up It was away on holidays up up the case
Speaker 1: at Port Macquarie and I got a call from one
Speaker 1: of the barable mobs and it was Christmas time and
Speaker 1: they said to me what they're up to? And I've
Speaker 1: got on just up up the coast on holidays whereabouts
Speaker 1: I said, oh, Port macquary and they said, great, I've gone.
Speaker 1: Why one of the one of the mob had been
Speaker 1: locked up and he was on the mission and they
Speaker 1: actually called the police because the police had turned up
Speaker 1: looking for him previously, and said, look he's here now
Speaker 1: and come and get him. Not to cause harm or whatever.
Speaker 1: They were just trying to do the right thing. He
Speaker 1: knew it was only a matter of time, and he
Speaker 1: went there. They called me and said, we're at the
Speaker 1: police station and we're worried that he's going to self
Speaker 1: harm in the cells. And it's great you're at Port
Speaker 1: McQuary because you can come down and saw that out.
Speaker 1: Now you know the workings of police just I wasn't
Speaker 1: stationed there. I'm just going to rock up and sort
Speaker 1: it out. I got there and there was about twenty
Speaker 1: of them out in front of the police police station,
Speaker 1: twenty of the Bowerble mob, and they're gone, great, you're here,
Speaker 1: can you go? We want to go down the cells
Speaker 1: and see our couz. I've gone. It mightn't be that simple.
Speaker 1: It mightn't be that simple. I walked in in the
Speaker 1: first person I spoke to. I didn't get much reception,
Speaker 1: and then saw the supervisor and I just said, look,
Speaker 1: the group we got out there, they're worried about one
Speaker 1: of the people that you got in the in the cells,
Speaker 1: and would it be a big impost if I went
Speaker 1: down with them and some of the family members and
Speaker 1: we go down there and they can just have a yarn,
Speaker 1: make sure he's okay, reassure him, and reassure them. And
Speaker 1: this was a good cop and he switched on and said,
Speaker 1: not a problem. Look, let one they come down. But
Speaker 1: they were out the front for hours, genuinely concerned that
Speaker 1: if they don't get in and see their cousin or
Speaker 1: relative friend, that he was going to self harmed. So
Speaker 1: I do understand that, and that that was very real.
Speaker 1: That was very real, that thee fear that they had
Speaker 1: and the relief that they all had once they spoke
Speaker 1: to him and said, yeah, he's okay, he's not going
Speaker 1: to do anything. And it was simple as letting them
Speaker 1: go down the cells.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: They had tried to get that done before we about
Speaker 1: me there and they were refused, and that's why they
Speaker 1: were all forming out the front of the police station
Speaker 1: that police, can we just go down there. So a
Speaker 1: little thing like that, but yeah, I got to say,
Speaker 1: it's not something I worry worry about with my kids.
Speaker 1: And when you put it that way again, it brings in.
Speaker 2: You think of that before.
Speaker 1: But that's what that's a beauty of sitting there talking
Speaker 1: with someone looking at from your your viewpoint because I'm
Speaker 1: ignorant to it, but it's something that yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not driving a car and you just know when
Speaker 2: crops come past the lights are on, just to automatically
Speaker 2: pull over.
Speaker 1: It's not license, not not a good not a good
Speaker 1: way to live. So no, how what was the process
Speaker 1: applying to the police? Was hard for you to get in?
Speaker 1: And this is Queensland Police, we're talking about. What year
Speaker 1: was it that you joined?
Speaker 2: Two thousand and one? Okay, yeah, no, I joined full
Speaker 2: interview process like everyone else successful got in. Surprise that
Speaker 2: I got in, actually yeah, my dad was really proud
Speaker 2: of me for doing that and getting in. I don't
Speaker 2: know why, but I felt proud of myself as well
Speaker 2: because I thought I was going to make these changes.
Speaker 2: But that's just maybe nove.
Speaker 1: How did you find the academy?
Speaker 2: The academy was hard because it's a stroke. There's only
Speaker 2: three other original people there at the time. Out of hundreds,
Speaker 2: So there's four Aboriginal people.
Speaker 1: Did you support each other?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, one of them will. So what they
Speaker 2: strategically did is they put me in a squad with
Speaker 2: another Aboriginal person. Yeah, and me and him were like
Speaker 2: best mates. And he's my little brother still and he's
Speaker 2: out of the job now for the same reasons I
Speaker 2: got out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll we'll talk about that. But did you
Speaker 1: you feel in the academy that, okay, I will make
Speaker 1: a difference, like when at that point in time before
Speaker 1: you hit the streets.
Speaker 2: No, it's the academy is different, like it's a whole
Speaker 2: you're very sheltered, so all you're learning and it's every
Speaker 2: four weeks you having exams and legislation and working on
Speaker 2: your physical yeah, shooting and firearms and driving, which I loved. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's a different world. When you're quite sheltered, you
Speaker 2: don't know what's happening. I didn't know what to expect
Speaker 2: when I first went out.
Speaker 1: There was there any cultural training in there that you got.
Speaker 2: Yeah, snooze face, We're like all that. Everyone who's just
Speaker 2: flaming back because it's done in the last week before
Speaker 2: you get your march out and all the other coppers
Speaker 2: and the full averagine people. We're the ones that were
Speaker 2: sitting up up straight and paying attention. We don't need
Speaker 2: the training these fellows do. These white fellows needed it,
Speaker 2: but they were sleeping.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I hope it is improved, but I know what
Speaker 1: you're talking about a lot of the mandatory like if
Speaker 1: if it's done the wrong way, people just it's a
Speaker 1: tick and flick. It's not really so you learn.
Speaker 2: I learned so much on the road and not in
Speaker 2: the first week.
Speaker 1: Who did you get buddied with? Because when you come
Speaker 1: out of the Academy of Assuming Queensland, it's like New
Speaker 1: South Wales you get the buddy that it looks after.
Speaker 2: Training officer, which is what I ended up becoming as well.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I was one with a female, Like there's
Speaker 2: like a form do you want to be with a
Speaker 2: male or female? I didn't really care when I talk
Speaker 2: about stuff that happened in the police. It wasn't just
Speaker 2: it's not just males. It's not gendered.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you were. You're up against it in two
Speaker 1: parts as Aboriginal, but also a female in a place
Speaker 1: and a single parent, and a single parent you're ticking
Speaker 1: a few few boxes to make it hard.
Speaker 2: And you know, like, yeah, it was really difficult, really
Speaker 2: really difficult.
Speaker 1: Did you think you stick it out? I know the
Speaker 1: first couple of weeks you think, well, have I got
Speaker 1: myself into?
Speaker 2: But well, it was really difficult working with this particular
Speaker 2: person that my field training officer.
Speaker 1: But I because most people, they tend to select people
Speaker 1: that are good at nurturing and training nurturing. What what
Speaker 1: was she was telling me to quit? But well, and
Speaker 1: how why?
Speaker 2: And you shouldn't you should quit?
Speaker 1: Where did that come from? Or what was that about?
Speaker 2: I have no idea, I can't I can't speak for her.
Speaker 2: So I end up telling the boss. I said, hey,
Speaker 2: I need a new partner. I'm gonna I'm gonna have
Speaker 2: to quit. And so he put me with someone else
Speaker 2: who was amazing because I had a different experience.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, but that's that's an important part. Like
Speaker 1: when you join the cops, if you can get shanned
Speaker 1: the way by good people that can, it's critical to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But also he was Smoan as well. He was
Speaker 2: a Smoan police officer, and so culturally, like we're both minorities.
Speaker 2: So he got me and I got him.
Speaker 1: So okay, and that that made it easier for me.
Speaker 1: How were you received with the public when you get
Speaker 1: out there and you're shining new uniform as a black lady.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was good because like when when I went
Speaker 2: to attended jobs when it was my people, they all
Speaker 2: knew me because I was in the community. So there
Speaker 2: was an Aboriginal Community Health Service, my kids and I
Speaker 2: attended there. They'd have nateof wag my kids and I
Speaker 2: were there and most times I worked it and my
Speaker 2: kids would come. So the community were very involved with
Speaker 2: the community, accepted in the community, and yeah, and it
Speaker 2: was really good. But it was good because whenever the
Speaker 2: jobs come up, but they they're home, they would say,
Speaker 2: ronic can come in, but you bullyman can't come in.
Speaker 2: So and I'd be sitting inside having a cup of
Speaker 2: tea Arnie up yeah, and all these white coppers yeah
Speaker 2: and not so like you know, there was like an
Speaker 2: old uncle sitting on the roof and I was like,
Speaker 2: I've taken me unkidded and befire arm away. And then
Speaker 2: I saw I heard a job coming over the radio
Speaker 2: and all these coat tour lights and signs because uncles
Speaker 2: sitting on the roof, and I thought, fuck me, dad,
Speaker 2: they turn It's the whole fucking siege now. So I
Speaker 2: just went there because I was in a place vehicle,
Speaker 2: but I wasn't kidded up, and I just told him
Speaker 2: to get down off the roof. Get off the fucking roof.
Speaker 2: Sit on your own roof, you know. And but he
Speaker 2: had a smoke and he had no lighter, and he said,
Speaker 2: run here, give me a light. And I said, come
Speaker 2: down and get it, simple as.
Speaker 1: That simple thing.
Speaker 2: Simple. And you've got all these they're all hide me
Speaker 2: on the car getting really fuck me, give me a light.
Speaker 1: Was there was there any resentment in the community that
Speaker 1: you're across to the blue side.
Speaker 2: No, because but the thing is, I try to treat
Speaker 2: everybody with the respect that I would like to be treated,
Speaker 2: you know, like I didn't treat anyone any different. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's my motto. That's how I am. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well look we might we might take a
Speaker 1: break now when we when okay, we'll get you out
Speaker 1: of here. When when we get back, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the rest of your career, how you left, and your
Speaker 1: second book that you've knocked out, and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: whatever else comes up, we'll just have a you all right.
Speaker 1: Cheers